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Old 18-01-2010, 08:46 AM   #1
kadosh
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Default First Lodge of Ireland

First Lodge of Ireland, Cork - http://munsterfreemason.com/1st_Lodge_of_Ireland.htm - The First Lodge of Ireland has held the No. 1 warrant since 10 August 1776, and aside from a two-year hiatus when the warrant was cancelled on 6 July 1826 until it was restored 2 October 1828, it has worked continuously.
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Old 18-01-2010, 09:42 AM   #2
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That's not what they say here.... hehe...
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Old 18-01-2010, 10:01 AM   #3
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here is where?
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Old 18-01-2010, 10:28 AM   #4
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Dublin
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Old 18-01-2010, 10:36 AM   #5
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So, then what do 'they' (?) say in Dublin?
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Old 18-01-2010, 10:58 AM   #6
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That the Dublin lodge is the oldest in the country and the 2nd oldest in the world [British Isles]
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Old 18-01-2010, 11:05 AM   #7
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They say what I say, and what I said the other day, but you simply will not accept that Freemasonry existed anywhere prior to 1717, a quite ludicrous assertion.

The whole of Ireland was an integral part of the United Kingdom prior to 1923 and it is included in these figures:

Quote:
During the building of St. Paul's, Wren was the zealous Master of the St. Paul's Freemason's Lodge, which assembled at the "Goose and Gridiron," one of the most ancient lodges in London.

He presided regularly at its meetings for upwards of eighteen years. He presented the lodge with three beautifully carved mahogany candlesticks, and the trowel and mallet which he used in laying the first stone of the great cathedral in 1675.

In 1688 Wren was elected Grand Master of the order, and he nominated his old fellow-workers at St. Paul's, Cibber, the sculptor, and Strong, the master mason, Grand Wardens.

In Queen Anne's reign there were 129 lodges—eighty-six in London, thirty-six in provincial cities, and seven abroad. Many of the oldest lodges in London are in the neighbourhood of St. Paul's.

(SOURCE: 'St Paul's: The churchyard', Old and New London: Volume 1 (1878), pp. 262-274. http://www.british-history.ac.uk/rep...9;s Churchyard)
Quote:
"After the establishment of the Kilwinning (c. AD 1140) and York Lodges (AD 926) the jurisdiction and antiquity of the Grand Lodge of York over other English Lodges has invariably been acknowledged by the whole Fraternity, the principles of Freemasonry rapidly spread throughout both Kingdoms and several Lodges were erected in different parts of the island." (SOURCE: A Brief History of Lodge Mother Kilwinning No. 0, Grand Lodge of Scotland, June 1944)
Even earlier:

Quote:
"This church and the civilization introduced by the Romans were swept away by the Picts and Saxons, and the members, called Culdees, were compelled to hide in the wilderness of Wales, Scotland, Ireland, and the small islands between Great Britain and Ireland; chiefly in Anglesey and Iona, where they preserved their Apostolic institutions, which were modeled after the most ancient Christian church, which, it is well known, was the secret or Masonic form. (SOURCE: The Mysteries of Britain: Secret Rites and Traditions of Ancient Britain Restored: 1905)
You see kadosh, when forums allow free debate and discussion, unlike the "masonic" forums, we get somewhere towards the truth. This debate is now being held for the first time in the public arena, thanks to the Internet, where Moderns System freemasons do not hold the key to the door. This will increasingly happen in the future, especially in the lead up to 2017.
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Old 18-01-2010, 12:36 PM   #8
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nefilim777 View Post
That the Dublin lodge is the oldest in the country and the 2nd oldest in the world [British Isles]
Can you please provide the detailed information to support the early years in Ireland that you are referring to?

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Old 18-01-2010, 12:44 PM   #9
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kadosh View Post
Can you please provide the detailed information to support the early years in Ireland that you are referring to?
I have, above.





"I will strive to live with love and care
upon the level by the square"

Limerick, Ireland - AD1507

You do not recognise these?

Quote:
THE TRINITY TRIPOS 1688.

A manuscript known as "the Trinity Tripos", dated 11th July 1688, was brought to light in a book published by Rev. John barrett, (Vice-Provost, from 1806 to 1821, Trinity College, Dublin) in 1808. This MS. (Manuscript) clearly shows that Speculative Freemasonry was at labour in the 1680's some 37 years before the first recorded meeting of Grand lodge in 1725. (SOURCE: http://www.irishmasonicjewels.ie/overview22.html)
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Old 18-01-2010, 12:45 PM   #10
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I was told it by the secretary of the Grand Lodge of Ireland while getting a tour. It also chronicle's it in the museum in the lodge.

Try here;
http://www.irish-freemasons.org/Page...e_History.html
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Old 18-01-2010, 12:58 PM   #11
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Quite so. The Grand Lodge of Ireland is not so concerned about the myth of the Goose and Gridiron and it is more ready to accept the truth. They regard it as a UGLE problem. IMHO Irishmen tend to be far less anal about these things. Ahhh well!
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Old 18-01-2010, 06:44 PM   #12
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The 275th Anniversary of Grand Lodge of Ireland ~ 8th June 2000. - http://www.irishmasonicjewels.ie/overview22.html#(O)
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Old 18-01-2010, 07:13 PM   #13
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On 6 October 1646, Elias Ashmole, was made a Freemason at his father-in-law's house at Warrington. It is clear that the lodge at Warrington was not a standing lodge but a group of Freemasons who met simply for the purpose of making new Masons, the lodge then breaking up. This was the English practice throughout the 1600s. Randle Holme in his Academy of Armourie (1688) and Dr. Robert Plot in his Natural History of Staffordshire (1686) make a very firm distinction between the Fellowship of Freemasons (the operatives) and the Society of Freemasons (the accepted). Holme stated that he had the honour to be of the Society and Plot stated that it was well known over the country and gives the indications of what the ceremony of making a Masons was.

In Bro. Henry Sadler's seminal work Masonic Facts & Fiction (1887) he suggests tht a conflict arose in the early 1720s when members of the nobility, professions and landed gentry began to interest themselves in the lodges and see them as vehicles for promoting a system of morality. Sadler saw the conflict between the two factions being resolved in 1722/3 when the non-operative members gained the ascendancy, began to formalise the organisation of the society, produced formal Constituions (1723) and extended the simple entry rituals to a formal three degree system with the introduction of the Hiramic legend.

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Old 18-01-2010, 07:17 PM   #14
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Originally Posted by kadosh View Post
The 275th Anniversary of Grand Lodge of Ireland ~ 8th June 2000. - http://www.irishmasonicjewels.ie/overview22.html#(O)
"Our Irish blunders are never blunders of the heart."

Maria Edeworth.
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Old 18-01-2010, 07:26 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by kadosh View Post
On 6 October 1646, Elias Ashmole, was made a Freemason at his father-in-law's house at Warrington. It is clear that the lodge at Warrington was not a standing lodge but a group of Freemasons who met simply for the purpose of making new Masons, the lodge then breaking up. This was the English practice throughout the 1600s. Randle Holme in his Academy of Armourie (1688) and Dr. Robert Plot in his Natural History of Staffordshire (1686) make a very firm distinction between the Fellowship of Freemasons (the operatives) and the Society of Freemasons (the accepted). Holme stated that he had the honour to be of the Society and Plot stated that it was well known over the country and gives the indications of what the ceremony of making a Masons was.

In Bro. Henry Sadler's seminal work Masonic Facts & Fiction (1887) he suggests tht a conflict arose in the early 1720s when members of the nobility, professions and landed gentry began to interest themselves in the lodges and see them as vehicles for promoting a system of morality. Sadler saw the conflict between the two factions being resolved in 1722/3 when the non-operative members gained the ascendancy, began to formalise the organisation of the society, produced formal Constituions (1723) and extended the simple entry rituals to a formal three degree system with the introduction of the Hiramic legend.
Half true.

Free Masonrie in England was always Free, Accepted or Speculative Masonrie with lodges being spontaneously formed where they were needed. In this case the lodge meeting was held in the house of a gentlemen at the time when Elias Ashmole was initiated according to the Constitutions of Masonrie (Sloane Manuscript No. 3848, Royal Library, British Museum). Lodge members would take it in turn to host the Lodge.


Typical Lodge meeting in the house of a gentleman.


There is no dispute over the basic facts except the Sadler quote. The "conflict" was certainly not resolved except to the satisfaction of Hanover.

Henry Sadler (born 1840) was a Victorian Moderns UGLE freemason. He was not an historian but a merchant seaman and commercial traveller who joined Grand Lodge as an employed housekeeper and Assistant Grand Tyler. His masonic researches were entirely carried out in the library of the United Grand Lodge of England in Great Queen Street and his conclusions are IMHO highly dubious, to say the least.
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Old 18-01-2010, 09:04 PM   #16
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Dr. William J. Chetwode Crawley (1844-1916) was a PM of Quatuor Coronati Lodge No. 2076 (EC) - http://www.freemasonry.bcy.ca/biogra...crawley_c.html - Crawley was the greatest Irish masonic historian and the author of the standard 3 volume work on Irish Freemasonry Caementaria Hibernica (1895, 1896, 1900). Caementaria Hibernica. Being The Constitutions That Have Served To Hold Together The Freemasons Of Ireland. Fasciculus Primus 1726-1730 - Fasciculus Secundus 1735-1744 - Fasciculus Tertius 1751-1807. It was Irish military Lodges that were the first to be given ambulatory warrants in 1732, referred to as ‘travelling lodge’ warrants in England.

R.W.Brother Chetwode Crawley was an active member of both Lodge and Grand Lodge, and early in his Masonic career became interested in the study of the history of Masonry. The early history of Masonry in the British Isles has always been obscure, and the attempts of our earlier Masonic writers to illuminate the subject were not attended with results commensurate with their zeal. Crawley, with such writers as Hughan, Gould, Sadler, Rylands and Speth did much to free the history of the Craft from the myths and fancies which had become incorporated with it.

Although first and principally a student of Irish Masonry, Brother Chetwode Crawley's labours covered a wide field, and his services were recognized in his own Grand Lodge-that of Ireland-by election to the important office of Grand Treasurer, while several Grand Lodges in the United States conferred on him the rank of Past Grand Warden.

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Old 18-01-2010, 09:20 PM   #17
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And the Grand Lodge of Ireland agrees that "speculative" Free Masonrie was in full swing a very long time before its formation.

It is sheer propaganda to suggest that the history of Freemasonry pre-1717 is "obscure". It is NOT, it is clear to the unbiased historian. Acres and acres of academic evidence, Masonic, non-Masonic, Church, and State.

History should be reported and not invented.
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Old 18-01-2010, 09:31 PM   #18
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All we can reliably say is that wheresoever dispersed ordinary Masonic Lodges were in existence before Grand Lodges or Provincial Grands Lodges were formed.
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Old 18-01-2010, 09:39 PM   #19
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All we can reliably say is that wheresoever dispersed ordinary Masonic Lodges were in existence before Grand Lodges or Provincial Grands Lodges were formed.
And still are. The closest masonic lodge to me isnt ugle (I have checked with GQS) yet at the Remembrance parade every year the council chappy calls out the lodge to lay a wreath. Two years ago it was simply [**** masonic lodge] last year it was the lodge name that was called.
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Old 19-01-2010, 11:13 PM   #20
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Default The Hon. Miss St. Leger and Freemasonry

By Bro. Edward Conder.

The Anglo-Norman House of St. Leger has perhaps one of the best authenticated pedigrees of any of those families whose pride it is, that they are descended from one of the companions in arms of the Conqueror.
From the British Museum Library, Philpott’s MSS., and the Stemmata St. Leodegaria, I find that Sir Robert St. Leger, Knight, obtained from William I. the Manor of Ulcombe in Kent, where the family flourished for many generations.
Sir Antony St. Leger, Knight of the Garter, a lineal descendant of the above Sir Robert was appointed by Henry VIII. to be one of his commissioners for letting the Irish Crown lands, and on July 7th, 1640, he was constituted Lord Deputy of Ireland.
It is from this Sir Antony St. Leger that the Right Hon. Arthur St. Leger, 1st Baron Kilmayden, and Viscount Doneraile, father of the lady, an episode in whose interesting life I am now about to discuss, was descended.
The initiation of the Hon. Miss Elizabeth St. Leger, afterwards the wife of Richard Aldworth, Esq., has long been a recognized fact in the history of Freemasonry in Ireland.

http://www.freemasonry.bcy.ca/aqc/aldworth.html


Several accounts, more or less differing in detail, and generally remarkable for their want of accuracy, have already been published.1 The most authentic appears to be the one issued at Cork, with the authority of the family, in 1811. Although these different accounts vary considerably in the description of the manner in which Miss St. Leger witnessed the secret ceremonial carried on in the Lodge, the main fact of her being made a Mason remains undisputed.
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