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Old 29-10-2009, 03:53 PM   #1
lewi
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Question Alcohol Dangers Ignored But Why ??

Alcohol, my question is why do the users of alcohol hate the attention being focused on thier drug of choice why do they turn defensive when they know it is the cause of chronic diseases physical and sexual assaults and broken families not to mention those who die of alcohol poisoning and those who die or take a life as a result of drink driving.

Knowing the truth people defend alcohol but why is this what do they know that the satistics or government advisors and experts don't ??

Or is it just the case that every user no matter what the drug defends their right to use it regardless of what the evidence states ??
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Old 29-10-2009, 03:58 PM   #2
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Alcohol, my question is why do the users of alcohol hate the attention being focused on thier drug of choice why do they turn defensive when they know it is the cause of chronic diseases physical and sexual assaults and broken families not to mention those who die of alcohol posioning and those who die or take a life as a result of drink driving.

Knowing the truth people defend alcohol but why is this what do they know that the satistics or government advisors and experts don't ??

Or is it just the case that every user no matter what the drug defends their right to use it regardless of what the evidence states ??
Its all about justifying the further breakdown of society and forcing people into the prison/criminal system. Alcohol was once illegal in the states and it caused a lot of police corruption, gang warfare to unfold. We have the same system today where they control the drug market and it is a ruthless food chain strangling society.
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Old 29-10-2009, 04:16 PM   #3
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It IS their right to use it regardless of what the evidence states. Persuasion and not enforcement/coercion is the only way. How the situation arises in the first place is another story.
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Old 29-10-2009, 04:31 PM   #4
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It was clearly outlined in the protocols of Zion that they would promote excessive drinking, they have so many adverts on for whisky and beer etc during midday and the afternoon. Also it is constantly glamorized in the music videos and movies, it really dumbs people down if they go over top top on it.
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Old 29-10-2009, 04:56 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by meksar View Post
Its all about justifying the further breakdown of society and forcing people into the prison/criminal system.
Knowing that this drug causes the problems that leads to the breakdown of society why do they not question its legitimity on the news as to why such a destructive drug is so popular when it is so dangerous.

When a news reporter hears that alchohol is more deadly to society than say cannabis or other drugs you see there loyalty to alchohol firmly slide into there concouiness arrousing their defence of the drug in question why is this ??
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Old 29-10-2009, 05:09 PM   #6
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It is a "how will it end" arguement, ban alcohol and whats next? cars? they kill plenty globaly every day, cookers? they cause plenty of fires and obviously death.... what are the statistics for people dying through choking on their own toothbrush's?
My point is that just because something is proven to cause us harm, if abused or used incorrectly, doesnt make it a bad thing, calling to ban everything is a good way of eroding any freedom we have!
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Old 29-10-2009, 05:10 PM   #7
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Why does one defend thier abusive partner?

Addiction. Not only physical, but mentally and emotionally.
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Old 29-10-2009, 05:52 PM   #8
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I aint saying they should ban alcohol i am asking why it is they refuse to debate the harm it brings to everyday life i mean some of these drinks are called wife beaters and why it is not making the drug classification dispite it clearly being the most deadly of all legal drugs why defend something so dangrous is it a sign that near all are alcohol addicts ??
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Old 29-10-2009, 05:58 PM   #9
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know it is the cause of chronic diseases physical and sexual assaults and broken families not to mention those who die of alcohol posioning and those who die or take a life as a result of drink driving.
-----------

Silly me... and here I was thinking that over-indulgence was the cause of chronic disease.

I thought the problem was unbalanced people with huge problems which they haven't resolved and they try to cover it up with drinking and not the alcohol which only makes matters worse but is really not the actual root problem in these people. If it wasn't alcohol, they most likely would still get into trouble.

I thought it was violent, unbalanced people attitudes of certain people that only gets magnified with over-drinking that was the issue ... not the substance.


Similarly, I think it is the deep seated issues of pyromaniacs that is the problem of them burning down houses and not the existance of matches and lighters.


Also I thought it was the incorrect attitude of certain (mainly young) drivers who act like maniacs racing on the streets that leads to fatalities and not the actual car.


I guess I have had it all wrong all this time.


---------

Personally I feel there is a basic structure of society that can lead to problems. So instead of wisely having people learn a safe and moderate level of using various things, our society pents up people's energies and lets them loose under the misguided influence of no wisdom at all. Teenagers just getting into University go mad with "freedom" and end up face down on a hallway from excessive drinking.

The same thing goes for certain drugs which under reasonable use can be entheogenic tools for spiritual awareness (in fact evidence seems to point to this fact as the far distant roots of many religions), in our society they are banned and demonized.

---------

I have come to learn that saying some thing is the root cause of a bunch of problems is often misguided.

I could equally say the Bible should be banned because some people have interpretted it to back up very dogmatic narrow views which lead to violent clashes in the past.


It is most often not the tool that is the problem but the attitude of the person who uses that tool.

---------


Now please excuse me whilst I peacefully enjoy some beers in the comfort of my own home without harming a single person or getting into any trouble whatsoever.

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Old 29-10-2009, 06:19 PM   #10
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[QUOTE]
Quote:
Originally Posted by zetetic0void View Post
-----------

Silly me... and here I was thinking that over-indulgence was the cause of chronic disease.
Binge drinking is a killer but people dont think about the danger and are quite happy to point out many flaws with much safer drugs that have been demonized by governments.

Quote:
I thought the problem was unbalanced people with huge problems which they haven't resolved and they try to cover it up with drinking and not the alcohol which only makes matters worse but is really not the actual root problem in these people. If it wasn't alcohol, they most likely would still get into trouble.
Why would somebody put others at further risk by drinking if they are already unbalanced they are using it as a way of antagonizing there problems the victim mentality.

Quote:
I thought it was violent, unbalanced people attitudes of certain people that only gets magnified with over-drinking that was the issue ... not the substance.
The substance reduces inhibitions making people who are prone to violence outbursts more dangrous some people just go out to get drunk and cause fights because they enjoy it and they are getting all there fixs in one night out.


Quote:
Now please excuse me whilst I peacefully enjoy some beers in the comfort of my own home without harming a single person or getting into any trouble whatsoever.
Enjoy !
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Old 29-10-2009, 06:50 PM   #11
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Why would somebody put others at further risk by drinking if they are already unbalanced they are using it as a way of antagonizing there problems the victim mentality.

I don't know ... perhaps finding out from studying those people is a better idea instead of automatically placing the blame on a tool which many people actually can use as a mild spiritual entheogen or at the very least can enjoy peacefully

Quote:
The substance reduces inhibitions making people who are prone to violence outbursts more dangrous some people just go out to get drunk and cause fights because they enjoy it and they are getting all there fixs in one night out.
Again ,that is the problem with the attitude with those people. Personally I never go out drinking but drink at home and usually write my ideas

I spend all week working on paintings and when I drink beers I feel the change in attitude is one from a focused spotlight view of reality to a wider softer general view. Not only is the feeling peacefully wonderful but I love coming up with writings during this time.

Other people may have their own goals for doing whatever they do. Some may smoke cannabis for ideas


The famous Astronomer Carl Sagan often used cannabis as a tool in idea discovery.

------------
------------


My point is that you were fully putting the blame on the substance which I fully 100% disagree with and feel is a misguided labeling of a substance which is not the actual cause of the problems .... the usage and attitude of the users is the problem just as surely as the poor and dangerous usage of cars by certain people is the problem and not the car.


It is not the tool that is the fault.... it is the attitude and usage by the person.


A hammer can pound nails into wood to build a shelter to protect yourself from the elements. A hammer also can be used by an imbalanced person as a murder weapon. I ask if it is the fault of the hammer?


-------------------

There are also many people addicted to various tools - any religion or ideology can also be a tool that also leads to hazardous results.

Some people may follow a religion in a thoughtful way and others become addicted to it to cover over greater psychological problems with strictly following dogmatic unbendable rules. I have seen videos of mass amounts of people at certain religous gatherings who I feel are very odd and dangerously misguided (watch the many videos of Benny Hinn gatherings to get my point). I

Meanwhile, someone else may investigate the deeper symbolic meanings of various religions and gain insight without attaching their ego to a dogmatic world view. The same exact text interpreted by someone else may lead them to go on a rampage of killing who they feel are heretics!

Is it the fault of some particular text or is it the attitude and approach of the individual person?

-----------


Similarly I have seen much information which I feel is not the best usage of certain drugs (mushrooms, DMT, etc ). Personally I feel many young people find out about these things and just go for "tripping" without any guidance from any source of wisdom.


So what does society do but label all of these substances as horrible mind altering substances. In the 1930's cannabis was labeled as causing huge violence (mainly a racist things against Mexicans by certain powerful religious ad political people in the US).


Yet there is a whole other attitude of approaching these substances which shows they have been used for gaining a far greater understanding of Reality .... and these people have a better attitude towards these substances than a "party attitude" in my opinion.

Maybe I'm biased as I'm not interested in confusing social chaos but rather in philosophy and investigating Reality.



Labeling a tool as the cause of problems is not correct and is misguided because one is totally ignoring a ton of other factors.

---------

Just because large corporations advertise a thing and projects an attitude for people to typically follow in relation to that thing does not mean that thing is at fault.


I feel that most beer ads on TV are generally pathetic nonsense. I feel the attitude usually presented towards people regarding usage of alcohol is misguided and not the best use of alcohol as a tool.

The beers I got today are from a small local brewery ... I have never seen any ad for them that I recall. Certainly they lack the budget of crappy beer producers like Bud Light (just my opinion) to make cheesy pathetic ads which make me not want to buy their beers anyway LOL.

One has to decide for themselves what they feel is right for themselves through self-introspection.
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Old 29-10-2009, 07:11 PM   #12
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The alcohol is not at fault here it is the individual but also it is the governments fault for allowing the individual access to such a drug in the first place its a vicious circle but it lacks control which is needed to resolve the problem but when you have a system not willing to debate the situation because it is legal and a part of everyday life it makes me wonder why they ignore the seemingly obvious ??

Perhaps they should enforce some system where people commiting offences should be banned from buying alcohol or consuming it once released from jail it seems uninforceable but where theres a will theres a way ... No ??
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Old 29-10-2009, 08:08 PM   #13
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How about legalising all drugs, take all alcohol off the market and let everybody brew their own for their own use only, same for weed and all the others, right across the board, a drug is a drug and normally taken for recreation a luxury and a non essential for sustinence, class it as a non essential, you want it you make it, grow it yourself, and punish the crime severly, not for taking the drug.

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Old 29-10-2009, 08:20 PM   #14
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There used to be a tradition on Budget day when the puppet Chancellor of the day would announce no rise in spirits duty, followed by a swig of Whisky and an insider's smirk.

The booze culture has been blatantly promoted in the UK and still is. In a world of rising prices for essentials like energy and food, booze is cheaper than ever.

In Stalinist/Bolshevik/Zionist Russia, the cheapest thing was vodka and cigarettes. Keep the masses pissed and puffing and they would be content and not bother the vermin elite.

The Romans used to give them gladiators and circuses. Today we have Sky, happy hour, and cage fighting.
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Old 29-10-2009, 08:23 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by icarus View Post
There used to be a tradition on Budget day when the puppet Chancellor of the day would announce no rise in spirits duty, followed by a swig of Whisky and an insider's smirk.

The booze culture has been blatantly promoted in the UK and still is. In a world of rising prices for essentials like energy and food, booze is cheaper than ever.

In Stalinist/Bolshevik/Zionist Russia, the cheapest thing was vodka and cigarettes. Keep the masses pissed and puffing and they would be content and not bother the vermin elite.

The Romans used to give them gladiators and circuses. Today we have Sky, happy hour, and cage fighting.
Spot on !!
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Old 29-10-2009, 08:41 PM   #16
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Its all about justifying the further breakdown of society and forcing people into the prison/criminal system. Alcohol was once illegal in the states and it caused a lot of police corruption, gang warfare to unfold. We have the same system today where they control the drug market and it is a ruthless food chain strangling society.
The Temperance movement in the US became an influential element so much that the 18th Amendment (Prohibition) was established. During that time many creative people managed to continue the flow of alcohol much as the drug business and it was just as dangerous at times.

Alcohol abuse is really linked to something in the abuser IMO. It's the most common form of 'chemical' abuse. But alcohol's been around for ages and trying to rid the community of it is impossible as history teaches. As far as moderation, that's a discipline for the user to learn and some people can not or do not wish to learn it. I really believe the issue lies with the individual.

And yeah, being reliant keeps you dumbed down and complacent.
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Old 29-10-2009, 08:59 PM   #17
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it is the governments fault for allowing the individual access to such a drug in the first place its a vicious circle but it lacks control which is needed to resolve the problem
------------------

I would suggest that the problem is more fundamental than the level of government. I feel the government is but another layer which is based (and so influenced by) on an even lower layer which biases society to be a certain way.

So the actual seemingly apparent problem with alcohol is in fact a far more basic problem built-in or hardwired into the structure of society itself. The usual result of society's hardwiring added to alcohol is sometimes problematic. My argument is not that alcohol is the problematic ingredient but that a fundamental biased characteristic of society is the problem.

Part of the problem is in fact the very nature of complex civilization which by its very nature restricts individual desires and action over lengths of time in order to get tasks completed. The resulting frustration is rewarded by shorter periods of "freedom" to enact one's desires. Unfortunately die to this repression, I feel the desires can go overboard ...usages of substances can be problematic if one is trapped within this system in an imbalanced way .... sometimes resulting in outbursts.

If the very fabric of society was different, the circumstances where abuse and *incorrect and unwise* use of substances would be much less.


Society is fundamentally structured a certain way. Many people here can probably relate to some issues many of us see about how society is faulty.

What I see is a society which says to teenagers ..."do not drink...it is not legal for you to drink. It is wrong! But when you are 19 or 21 it is right and good and "just go wild"!" ... and yet, many of them end up drinking on their own and discovering only through their also young peers the usage of alcohol and drugs.

I have investigated (a bit) shamanic cultures where certain substances were actually really sacraments (and most likely the predecessors of certain modern mass-scale religion's sacramental substances which are merely bread and often merely grape-juice ... these are just representatives of actual real entheogenic substances which had real effect! Entheogen coming from Latin foe en=within : theo=divine : gen=generate... generating the divine within) for revealing religious and spiritual experience and insight. Instead of that direct experience, our culture bans that and in the case of alcohol mainly promotes it as a party and "going wild" substance to counteract the weekly drudgery of having to submit to a tedious job!


Instead of a society where older people who have wisdom and experience teach younger people how to use effectively and usefully a substance (be it alcohol or some entheogenic mushroom or plantl), young people are set adrift on a sea of finding out for themselves and in my opinion often do not find a useful path for it. And older people are seen as obsolete and "not with the times". Younger people tend to see older people as not having any wisdom which seems to be a result (partially) of the extremely modern fast-paced changing of society over mere decades.

Add the various other illusionary pressures (gotta get that big job ... gotta have a girlfriend at all times ... have to fit in with some group ... gotta get that nice car... gotta have those cool designer clothes to "fit in: with the crowd ... gotta be "normal") that society (and not just at some level of corporate influence but also at the peer level) projects into our minds and the pressure often means a resulting opposite reaction of getting stoned , totally drunk, go bonkers getting into fights to release pent-up frustrations induced by a repressive social order... and totally lose all control to balance off the equation.


Instead of this, I suggest really thinking about what one wants and needs. It does not mean you shouldn't drink alcohol for some purpose or take certain drugs wisely for some purpose (the purposes may be to experience an altered mind state which can be insightful into experiencing and understanding Reality ... or as simple as enjoying the experience) .... instead of blindly following a trend or what some social crowd tells you is the "cool" thing to do (or what society tells you is the "uncool" thing to do), you should thoughtfully do your experiences based on your own feeling and search.

--------------------

I still feel that dogmas and rules without really thinking about things is just as dangerous as some guy with major imbalances of violence who binges on booze ... each can result in major problems!



And this is why I reject the idea that alcohol, cannabis, mushrooms, Bible, Q'uran, Gnostic texts, Tao Te Ching, Buddhist writings, mythology, alchemical ideas, occult symbolism, fire, guns, music lyrics, movies, books ...etc...etc ... are automatically at fault or bad. It is the usage by the person that is the issue.

--------
I wrote this after a handful of very nice "Garrison Brewery" gold-medel winning India Pale Ales .... so if there are any typos, I'll blame them on the effects of beer ... which lessens the "spotlight view" of Reality (and induces worse typing skills) but promotes the "floodlight view" of Reality (and sometimes a wider more fluid picture of Reality which can be good to counteract the focused view of things which can cause you to miss a larger picture).
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Old 29-10-2009, 09:56 PM   #18
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this always comes down to personal responsibilty! doesn't it?
it's not that Alcohol is bad or should be illegal, just like all the other plants & substances we are being kept from exploring, in a healthy way.
Alcohol goes way back to ancient cultures, who claim the gift of fermentation was given to them by the gods/goddesses.
they served as vehicles to shamanic visionary states, as well as for healing.
its to bad things have gotten so twisted & our connection to ancient practices again tainted.
IMO, life would be boring without a little bit of intoxicating fun, tee hee. Not in the self-abusive sense ofcourse.
Some red wine, Gin, Jaegermeister, or a healthy glass of hops filled beer, is a nice way to loosen up a little, & to let go. ofcourse, these are all made out of plants & herbs!

this guy wrote a whole book on the subject.
Sacred and Herbal Healing Beers: The Secrets of Ancient Fermentation
by Stephen Harrod Buhner
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Old 29-10-2009, 10:55 PM   #19
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of course, these are all made out of plants & herbs!

Actually this is a very interesting point!!


Plants ... herbs ... yeast .... mushrooms!


These layers of natural life are often considered "below" us "higher species". But the problem with us "higher species" is that we contain characteristics which lead to a great deal of violence, pain and destruction.

The very nature of being an animal form appears to contain the characteristic of not only feeling pain but desiring to inflict one's desires through action (which ultimately is a hard-wired tendency to spread this genetic code... and often results in great violence to others). This desire often results in the infliction of pain upon others (this can be seen through examples within history and modern times).

The plants on the other hand, appear to be on a layer outside of this type of reality. Perhaps because they are not mobile, they have not developed a need for either pain reception systems (as warning systems for survival) nor the tendency for direct action to enforce a specific genetic code (or social, philosophical, or thought code in human society) as can be seenwithin non-stationary animals.


It is actually very interesting that these plant, fungus, herb forms are the gateways to altered states of mind. These very non-aggressive and fundamental forms of life are ways which humans can alter their mind state... and if done usefully, can be a totally beneficial experience to counteract the ego! Theoretically (although completed undesirably) a complete drunk inflicted with the effects of yeast in beer has overcome his ego because he is incapacitated! This of course is actually not very desirable because it goes far past the limitations of the body to reasonably and healthfully deal with alcohol.

Of course various things such as breathing techniques, Yogic practices, thoughtful insight also can allow the seeing past the ego .... but the inclusion of these I don't feel negate the effects of using alcohol , herbs, mushrooms, plants for similar goals.

As Terrance McKenna has proposed, mushrooms may have had a great impact upon early human society ...but also upon early human evolution. The very fact that early humans ate certain entheogenic mushrooms at low levels would have induced increased visual and sensory accuracy which aided survival by more successful hunts. Higher intake of these substances may have induced increased sexual arousal which means those who intake these mushrooms will promote their particular genetic code more readily. Even greater intake of these substances were what lead to a direct experience of the feeling of bypassing the ego and "self" but seeing "all is one". According to his ideas, entheogenic mushrooms (some speculate the description in the Exodus in the Old Testament is indeed such mushrooms! ... the "manna") had a great impact into the creation of the idea against the personal ego (striving for personal gain, domination, etc) and instigating the feeling and idea into society of a "religious" concept of not hurting others because they are really just like yourself).


If we think of human normal states of mind, these are states that are still governed by chemical environments (and not of our choice - did you really choose to feel Reality in this particular way? ... and often of detrimental effect ... the normal strong effect of the personal ego wanting "this" and "that" and fighting opposing individuals who compete is partially part of the animalistic basic layer within us humans). The addition of other effects from seemingly external plants, mushrooms, yeasts creates a different state of mind and historically seems to have been a root towards a deeper understanding buried within various religions (although those religions may or may not also contain layers of cultural bias on top of that basic useful layer).

-------------

It is my opinion that the appreciation of the normal sober state of mind is appreciated by comparison to the intoxicated state of mind. Also the intoxicated state of mind is appreciated my comparison to the normal sober state of mind. A personally discovered balance of the two is something a reasonable person can decide on their own.


As appears to be usual in Reality, the appreciation of one thing is experienced in relation and comparison to another thing.



To be honest, when really thinking about the state of mind after a number of beers ... its is actually quite pleasant. I don't care what a ton of other people may or may not say (because I feel they may or may not be biased and do not understand my personal experience of Reality )... but I personally feel this is a spiritually useful state of mind!


---------------

I have seen documentaries which show that other animals (other than humans) seek out and injest fermented fruits. I have seen giraffes, primates and yes... even bees (!!!) who have injested fermented substance!


I must wonder if even the bees purposefully seek out this substance. Perhaps at first they accidentally come across fermented sap from a lime tree and feel the effects and later purposefully seek it out.


A very interesting documentary revealed that primates who live near a beach on a certain tourist destination island actually share almost exactly the same percentages of their populations of non-drinking, reasonable drinkers and over-drinkers as the average human population (this information being studied due to the reality of these various monkeys stealing unguarded drinks of human sunbathers LOL). I find this quite interesting.

Perhaps even amongst bees there is a certain percentage who do not injest fermented substance, those who injest a reasonable amount and those who over-indulge.


Very interesting stuff in my opinion.
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Old 29-10-2009, 11:55 PM   #20
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Knowing that this drug causes the problems that leads to the breakdown of society why do they not question its legitimity on the news as to why such a destructive drug is so popular when it is so dangerous.

When a news reporter hears that alchohol is more deadly to society than say cannabis or other drugs you see there loyalty to alchohol firmly slide into there concouiness arrousing their defence of the drug in question why is this ??
We know very well that alcohol is bad for society. We had "prohibition" here in the United States. They tried to keep people from drinking. What happened was, and I apologize to anyone if I'm repeating what anyone else said, but criminals took over the alcohol trade. People still drank despite the law. So they just did away with the law because it wasn't working and criminals had taken over. There's a movie called the Untouchables, which is about Elliot Ness and his group who took down Al Capone, a criminal who dealt in alcohol. At the end of the movie, a person says something like, prohibition is going to be ended. He wanted to know what Elliot Ness was going to do about it. Elliot Ness responded that he'd have a drink. That basically says it all. Even the people who were paid to fight alcohol would drink if they could. I'm sure some even did while it was illegal. We simply don't have the support to ban alcohol. The majority drinks. The dangers aren't ignored. Society lacks the resources to fight this.

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