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Old 07-09-2009, 02:35 PM   #41
lara
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Wow- That EA story is unbelievable- I would have never imagined.

Girl Gamers- God I cant stand 'em
-Seriously, that too is very surprising. I wish to god my wife was a gamer (Computer board games like "Risk" is the closest she gets) and if there was a such thing as girl gamers back in the day i would have been in heaven. Maybe the people who dont like girl gamers are really insecure with themselves and dont want a girl to be more skilled than them- Thats their problem.

Sexism in games- sure. Women in games (I am speaking of in video game's) are generally treated as sexual. Busty, beautiful,long legged and wearing very little... BUT, they are often powerful as well (as in many fighting games) and I dont think video games portray them as "weak" in the same way Movies did in their infancy... A male perspective is that I enjoy looking at beautiful women and dont see much wrong with the sexualization- I see it as a sense of empowerment for the woman.

The problem here that I can see is the same as with movies and television. People get some crazy expectation and thought process that this is what Women should look like- This is beauty... But this is a problem women have faced forever- being told what beauty is.
Oh definitely, but this is an interpretation that seems to deliver to a very masculine palate. I mean, the female avatars in games tend to always be scantily clad, the kind who looks good naked, if you will. On the other hand, images on films and tv shows targeted at women show emaciated corpses, who look great in clothes!

That's an interesting take on the issue of how the female characters can be viewed as much more empowered in games though. Are we talking NPCs or boss mobs and such? Yeah, there seems to be a good variety of both meek and powerful archetypes.

In my experience, there's no such a thing as different stats for either female or male characters in the games I've played, so that could be counted as an expression of equality achieved at this level.

There is one exception to that in the mmorpgs I played and that is FFXI, where you can select a race of characters who are all females(mithras) or asexual(galka.) Those have different default status (dexterity, agility, etcetcetc.) that initially dictate what jobs they would be more proficient at.


Oh and not to turn this into a 'feminazi' post, cos I know there will certainly be people who will get this impression from it) let me make it clear that I know there are some obnoxious girl gamers out there too. You know that girl, right? Slightly pretty, who is idolized by her posse of geeks 'cos she plays WoW? I cannot stand that kind either

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Old 07-09-2009, 02:41 PM   #42
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I can't offer any hard evidence of Tavistock being involved in the development of video games but I have just read a book (The Commitee of 300 - Dr. John Coleman) that is largely about the Tavistock institute, it was founded and run by a combination of 'intelligence types' and experts in mind control and shaping public opinion and they have been instrumental in creating what we think of as modern culture. so it really wouldn't be any supprise to find out that they were involved.
I need to find this book now. It seems fascinating and very likely to be related to this discussion.

At first glance it looked like just your average think tank, but after I read this quick article about it, I can see how clever it was of you to draw that parallel to their activity and possible participation in creating this industry.
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Old 07-09-2009, 02:44 PM   #43
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i used to call my old housemate a major nerd for eve online pretty much eating up his life, he responded 'hey, at least it's not WoW, that's a whole new level of dorkness!'
LoL!

Hey, isn't Eve online an even worse timesink than WoW?

They have a free trial too it would seem, but I am not touching that with a 10ft pole...
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Old 07-09-2009, 02:51 PM   #44
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"I need to find this book now. It seems fascinating and very likely to be related to this discussion."
It might be a good idea to order it from a library as it was 'silly money' expensive.

"I can see how clever it was of you to draw that parallel"
you just made my day, i've never been described as clever before
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Old 07-09-2009, 08:12 PM   #45
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Can you guys please make the distinction of fantasy and life, please.
Can you wannabe rationalists stop posturing as if you're coming in here with sensibilities that we don't have?

Nobody in here is mixing fantasy with reality.

If you want to talk about mixing fantasy with reality - examine people who's lives are dominated by video games.

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To think that devolopers inherently have some mean streak in their life becasue they made a game with demonic symbolism
Just more suppositions ... nobody in here said anything like that.

The fact remains that demonic and occult inspiration is heavy in alot of games. It's a fascinating topic so it's going to make fascinating game material and lore.
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Old 07-09-2009, 10:05 PM   #46
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Thanks for that comment metacomet (or should i say metacomment ) good post.
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Old 08-09-2009, 02:14 AM   #47
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"I need to find this book now. It seems fascinating and very likely to be related to this discussion."
It might be a good idea to order it from a library as it was 'silly money' expensive.

"I can see how clever it was of you to draw that parallel"
you just made my day, i've never been described as clever before

No way! Well, glad to have done so, but I was just saying the truth

I cannot find the book at the local library, nor even in the neighboring ones. I guess I'll try and find some quotes from it and make do with I can garner on the internet, cos like you said, it does cost a pretty penny.
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Old 08-09-2009, 02:20 AM   #48
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Can you wannabe rationalists stop posturing as if you're coming in here with sensibilities that we don't have?

Nobody in here is mixing fantasy with reality.

If you want to talk about mixing fantasy with reality - examine people who's lives are dominated by video games.



Just more suppositions ... nobody in here said anything like that.

The fact remains that demonic and occult inspiration is heavy in alot of games. It's a fascinating topic so it's going to make fascinating game material and lore.
Absolutely!

I would love to have opposing opinions regarding whether or not big corps (not the corps developers themselves) are using occultism in the gaming industry to spread their agenda, control a targeted demographic (by snaring them with huge distractions such as extremely time consuming games) and just plain trying to distract people through their efforts, so they do not question tptb.

Problem is that it doesn't look like we are not getting any intelligent counterpoints to that from deadskinball, who appears to have already lost interest in discussing this topic, or was here just to donate his/her 2 without even bothering with such silly details like, oh, I don't know, reading the thread?
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Old 08-09-2009, 02:27 AM   #49
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Going back to the lore discussion, I was just thinking about how a lot of the fantasy games are so similar story wise that it is really hard to discern them all. Do they all have to have the same origins? I understand that every genre has elements that are a constant, after all that common thread is what represents it, but with high fantasy universes, everything is the same down to what role we as players are supposed to play in the game world.

This is a good blog post about the similarities between Warhammer and Warcraft: http://kunochan.com/?p=75
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Old 08-09-2009, 02:48 AM   #50
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Going back to the lore discussion, I was just thinking about how a lot of the fantasy games are so similar story wise that it is really hard to discern them all. Do they all have to have the same origins? I understand that every genre has elements that are a constant, after all that common thread is what represents it, but with high fantasy universes, everything is the same down to what role we as players are supposed to play in the game world.

This is a good blog post about the similarities between Warhammer and Warcraft: http://kunochan.com/?p=75

yes, i've noticed that too, all the infinite possibilities of storytelling and yet the same stories keep cropping up.
i think stories are like threads that go back through the generations, and the threads weave between people and cultures.
a bit flowery but you get my point?
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Old 08-09-2009, 10:06 AM   #51
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What gets me is how we are given two options in character development: good X evil(alliance x horde) in the vast majority of these games. Oh, but going by Warcraft lore, the Alliance is at least a little bit more ambiguous in its nature. When a character is created in either faction though, your quests and game trajectory is always going to be about helping your race through battling the overwhelming forces of evil, blahblahblah, right?
There is no good vs evil in the game, it is all dependant on survival instincts of each race. (talking merely about the playable races here!) Only the forsaken can really be seen as coming close to what we may call evil.

There's a lot of symbolism in the game, just as about any game. There's mythology, history, fantasy in it, so what do you expect? Pentagrams are also in many places if you look for it. If you were a game designer yourself, wouldn't you like to put all that stuff in it? I certainly would, it's fascinating.

If you seek inspiration to create something, you need to start somewhere right? And our world is full with history, myth etc. etc.

I don't see any bad stuff about it. The only bad thing about the game is that it is a timesink and if you really want to achieve something you have to stay inside playing it for quite some time. The game is not worth it in the long run imo.

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oooh! I sense some hatred!
Are you still cutting yourself after I called to a tofu eating, crystal hugging, tree lovin' hippy awhile ago?
Obviously, I now know to add "emo" when descibing you.
tsk tsk.
I do wonder, have you played the game yourself?

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Old 08-09-2009, 10:19 AM   #52
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I agree. Warcraft races are not a clear cut and a little bit more in the grey area. Most get the impression that alliance races are good because they 'look' the part.

Speaking of that, I remember how this caused a lot of controversy when I was still playing: appearances for horde and alliance characters being the way they were.

Loads of people wanted to join the horde, but did not want to look like a horde character, remember? They used to claim that was the sole reason for the faction imbalance. Has this changed? I quit before they added a pretty race to the horde side.

Edited to add this link: http://lsvp.wordpress.com/2009/06/01...e-a-good-idea/

It discusses the repetitiveness in games and how quests have now become a leveling mechanism, as opposed to previous generations mmorpgs.

What I find interesting about this revolution is not only the resulting gameplay changes of this new trend, but how it has become a tool to get the player familiar with the surrounding world.

It is too bad though that everyone starts off being sent to kill rats, deliver mail to someone or collect stuff for some lazy bum npc in every single game I played.

The reason why I find this relevant to our debate is that it is a mirror of real life (for the average person) in that we start working menial jobs when young, then get education/experience and acquire 'levels' (financial cache) as we grow up. Again, it could be just a case of a developer being practical and using this real world experience to get players familiar with character development. Could also be about tptb reinforcing that we're all on this giant treadmill and there's no escape from it, even during our recreational time.

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Old 08-09-2009, 04:56 PM   #53
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why are you even on this thread if your not going to contribute anything?

why if this site is full of "the ignoramus populace" are you lurking here waiting to post abuse?
"NAH, I have a life." - evidently not

all his posts have dissappeared

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Old 08-09-2009, 06:26 PM   #54
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I agree. Warcraft races are not a clear cut and a little bit more in the grey area. Most get the impression that alliance races are good because they 'look' the part.

Speaking of that, I remember how this caused a lot of controversy when I was still playing: appearances for horde and alliance characters being the way they were.

Loads of people wanted to join the horde, but did not want to look like a horde character, remember? They used to claim that was the sole reason for the faction imbalance. Has this changed? I quit before they added a pretty race to the horde side.

Edited to add this link: http://lsvp.wordpress.com/2009/06/01...e-a-good-idea/

It discusses the repetitiveness in games and how quests have now become a leveling mechanism, as opposed to previous generations mmorpgs.

What I find interesting about this revolution is not only the resulting gameplay changes of this new trend, but how it has become a tool to get the player familiar with the surrounding world.

It is too bad though that everyone starts off being sent to kill rats, deliver mail to someone or collect stuff for some lazy bum npc in every single game I played.

The reason why I find this relevant to our debate is that it is a mirror of real life (for the average person) in that we start working menial jobs when young, then get education/experience and acquire 'levels' (financial cache) as we grow up. Again, it could be just a case of a developer being practical and using this real world experience to get players familiar with character development. Could also be about tptb reinforcing that we're all on this giant treadmill and there's no escape from it, even during our recreational time.
yep, i think that's very true, certain types of games do seem to encourage the whole 'Rat Race' thing. something else occured to me (and i could be way out there on this one ) is that as games seem to work on repetitive motions and repetitive gameplay could they also have the effect of putting people in a receptive state for symbolism in a similar way to the rituals carried out within secret societies?

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Old 08-09-2009, 10:12 PM   #55
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LoL!

Hey, isn't Eve online an even worse timesink than WoW?

They have a free trial too it would seem, but I am not touching that with a 10ft pole...
hellyeah, pretty much ate 3 years of his life plus a ruined relationship. yeah don't go near, it'll eat your soul! hehe

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Old 09-09-2009, 10:44 AM   #56
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From the little I read about Eve, it seems to be a game that you can train skills while away from the keyboard, right? One would think that if people can level up while not physically present and interacting with the game players would spend less time on it.

I like it that you mentioned the consequences of your friend's excessive gaming. They sound bad for anyone not involved in this, but, compared to other video game addicts, he didn't lose much. I mean, I know people who lost everything to it.

One more link I ran into today that I found interesting:

Ten Most Bizarre Gaming Incidents
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Old 09-09-2009, 10:54 AM   #57
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From the little I read about Eve, it seems to be a game that you can train skills while away from the keyboard, right? One would think that if people can level up while not physically present and interacting with the game players would spend less time on it.

I like it that you mentioned the consequences of your friend's excessive gaming. They sound bad for anyone not involved in this, but, compared to other video game addicts, he didn't lose much. I mean, I know people who lost everything to it.

One more link I ran into today that I found interesting:

Ten Most Bizarre Gaming Incidents
Yeah, that game mechanic in Eve is what makes it unplayable unless you started close t the beginning. If I started a guy on day 1 and didnt play for 3 years and logged in I would have a very skilled PC that others will have trouble catching up with.

Did you hear about the "bank robbery" in Eve? An employee of a player run bank sold the Bank to Chinese Gold sellers and everyones lost their money- I would be pissed

I played WOW and EQ2 forever but started LOTRO this year. Its way less time consuming (WoW became a job- I dont know how some of those guys do it. I work from home most of the time and played ALOT and it still wasnt enough) and I am loving exploring Middle Earth.

These games are so addictive because they have a Casino Element (drop rates and such) so each time you kill a Mob or Boss its like pulling a lever on a Slot. What will i win?

Yeah, I'm an addict lol
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Old 09-09-2009, 10:57 AM   #58
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From the story linked above, thought I would list the WoW related events:


Girl died playing World of Warcraft and got online funeral




A young Chinese girl nicknamed "Snowly" died after playing the online game "World of Warcraft" for several continuous days during a national day holiday. Snowly's friends, who share the same game community, said that she was always connected to the Internet.

Several days before Snowly's death, the girl was said to be preparing for a relatively difficult part of the game and had very little rest. She told her friends that she felt very tired. A big online funeral was held for Snowly one week after her death. The Chinese government is now seeking to instate a gaming curfew, limiting sessions to three hours at a time.


Boy saves his sister from a moose attack with skills learned from World of Warcraft - Finally a positive story about it? lol...



A 12 year-old Norwegian boy saved his sister and himself from a moose attack using skills he picked up in the online role playing game 'World of Warcraft.' Hans Jurgen Olsen and his sister got into a spot of trouble when they encroached on the territory of one of these antlered cold weather staples (otherwise known as a moose). When the beast went on the offensive, Hans knew the first thing he had to do was taunt it so that it would leave his sister alone and she could run to safety. "Taunting" is a move one uses in World of Warcraft to get monsters off of the less-well-armored team members.

Once he was a target, Hans remember another skill he'd picked up at level 30 in 'World of Warcraft' -- he feigned death. The moose lost interest in the inanimate Hans and wandered off into the woods. When he was safely alone Hans ran back home to share his tale of video game-inspired survival.


Woman Offers Sex for 'Warcraft' Gold



In an attempt to make her character stronger in the online game of World of Warcraft, a woman prostituted herself. Needing 5000 gold to purchase an 'Epic Flying Mount,' one of the fastest mounts in the game, she offered anyone, male or female, playing on her server the opportunity to perform a variety of sexual acts in exchange for the in-game currency. In a posting on Craigslist on 4/8/07, the player stated that if someone were to transfer 5000 gold pieces to her account to purchase an epic flying mount, then that person can, "mount," her. It stated that she wanted whoever was going to do this to send her a picture so that she could evaluate the perspective, "John."

The posting player stated that her email was full with messages from people that were interested in taking her up with her offer. In a response that she placed on Craigslist the next day, she scolded the other players for making such a big deal out of all of this. She stated that she was able to get both things that she was looking for. She wanted both a mount for her character, and one for herself.


Plague ravage World of Warcraft



In 2005, Blizzard introduced a new area to its popular MMORPG, World of Warcraft. The boss of the area was able to cast a spell called Corrupted Blood, which was supposed to infect and cause damage to all the players nearby. Contrary to what Blizzard planned, however, the players got their pets infected and used them to transmit the disease outside of the area, contaminating pretty much everyone around them. The plague spread through the game servers and thousands of players died. Blizzard managed to create quarantine zones within the game, and shortly afterwards it introduced a 'cure' for the infection. Despite the remedies the event created a lot of buzz in online forums and community websites.
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Old 09-09-2009, 11:02 AM   #59
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Yeah, that game mechanic in Eve is what makes it unplayable unless you started close t the beginning. If I started a guy on day 1 and didnt play for 3 years and logged in I would have a very skilled PC that others will have trouble catching up with.

Did you hear about the "bank robbery" in Eve? An employee of a player run bank sold the Bank to Chinese Gold sellers and everyones lost their money- I would be pissed

I played WOW and EQ2 forever but started LOTRO this year. Its way less time consuming (WoW became a job- I dont know how some of those guys do it. I work from home most of the time and played ALOT and it still wasnt enough) and I am loving exploring Middle Earth.

These games are so addictive because they have a Casino Element (drop rates and such) so each time you kill a Mob or Boss its like pulling a lever on a Slot. What will i win?

Yeah, I'm an addict lol
Wow, really? No wonder Eve seems to have a smaller playerbase, on the other hand, it seems like it also consumes its players with politics and other huge timesinks.

I beta'ed Lord of the Rings couple years ago and enjoyed it, but at the same time, I thought combat was a little too bland for me. They did have some innovative ideas in the form of questing and accomplishment display features though and I am sure they might have tweaked it to a much better game now.

ETA: this story is not WoW related but it bloggles the mind:

From the link about bizarre stories:

Woman was virtually raped in Second Life

A Belgian user of Second Life was forced, by using a so called “voodoo doll” --a piece of code that takes the form of a regular object as a cup or pen or whatever but in fact gives control of your avatar-- to perform sexually explicit behavior. In theory, a user must give his consent in order for other player to take control of his avatar, but using one of the above mentioned voodoo dolls and some persuasion you can make a user (especially a new one) to give access to his avatar. After the incident, Brussels' public prosecutor asked patrol detectives of the Federal Computer Crime Unit to go on Second Life to investigate the “virtual rape”.

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Old 09-09-2009, 11:11 AM   #60
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yep, i think that's very true, certain types of games do seem to encourage the whole 'Rat Race' thing. something else occured to me (and i could be way out there on this one ) is that as games seem to work on repetitive motions and repetitive gameplay could they also have the effect of putting people in a receptive state for symbolism in a similar way to the rituals carried out within secret societies?
That could be.

I'm not usually more receptive to some symbols, but more receptive to 'leaving my brain out' when I log into a game like that.

EQ was a prime example of that, because combat was much slower paced than your average modern mmorpg and it also involved a lot more repetition, as skillsets were pretty limited depending on which class you chose.

When playing EQ, I used to multi-task, because the game could become a boring, easy task really fast, otherwise I'd be lulled into a slumber, heh.

So maybe for those that can endure long hours of repetition without focusing their attention on other things, it might be the case they're put into a beta state?
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