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Old 01-09-2009, 08:24 PM   #1
anthony65
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Default Celtic Remains in America

Hi everyone,

This is a subject close to my heart at the moment, but I'm only just starting to research into it.

For those who are not aware already, there are a number of standing stones on the east coast of the USA, some of which apparently have runic inscriptions on them that are similar to ogham, the old irish runic language.

Rudolf Steiner wrote about one hundred years ago that there were many visits by Europeans to America until the catholic church decided to stop them. Steiner mentions Norway and of course there were norse settlements in Greenland and beyond. Interestingly the celtic church was very active in Norway in the 9th and 10th centuries:

There is a book about this called the viking serpent. The celtic priests apparently built a number of churches across (pre-christian) Norway in the form of an enormous pentagon. Here is a website for the book: http://www.thevikingserpent.com/

The serpent cult! Lots of serpent symbolism in the celtic and norse worlds.

Here is a book I just found about the standing stones in America. I don't know how good this book is.


Another link here:

http://books.google.de/books?id=Obgd...merica&f=false

Steiner had the theory that settlers from ancient greece colonized ireland a long time ago. He reckoned that Ireland was very, very special! I think this is another clue in the celtic visitations to north america.

I will post more information as I find it, but I'd appreciate any info that people might have.

Another link... Megalithic remains in new hampshire, discusses the celts and phoenicians (it's very good!)

http://planetvermont.com/pvq/v9n2/megaliths.html

Last edited by anthony65; 01-09-2009 at 10:57 PM.
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Old 02-09-2009, 04:03 AM   #2
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Thanks for the book link....I'd like to learn more about these sites too. They just seem to be ignored around here; pretty much unknown to the general population.

Perhaps because the erroneous general consensus is that Columbus was among the first Europeans in America we don't entertain any thoughts of ancient structures here.

I'm not too far from New England, and I plan to take a day trip to check out these sites sometime in the future.
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Old 02-09-2009, 11:23 AM   #3
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There may well have been some contact between Celtic Wales and America in the Middle Ages. Prince Madog ab Owain set of on an expedition to explore the "Western Ocean" and never came back. Then in the 18th Century people in America came across a tribe of Indians who had some mmembers with fair hair, white skin and blue eyes. And there were Welsh words in their language!

See: http://www.newswales.co.uk/?section=Culture&F=1&id=5889
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Old 02-09-2009, 02:14 PM   #4
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Originally Posted by amercury View Post
Thanks for the book link....I'd like to learn more about these sites too. They just seem to be ignored around here; pretty much unknown to the general population.

Perhaps because the erroneous general consensus is that Columbus was among the first Europeans in America we don't entertain any thoughts of ancient structures here.

I'm not too far from New England, and I plan to take a day trip to check out these sites sometime in the future.
I think the evidence was more than just ignored. I read a while back that there were concerted actions back in the 19th century to locate and destroy (or hide) any evidence that might point to earlier European acitivities in the americas. Rockefeller sponsored I do believe...
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Old 02-09-2009, 02:17 PM   #5
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Originally Posted by hagbard_celine View Post
There may well have been some contact between Celtic Wales and America in the Middle Ages. Prince Madog ab Owain set of on an expedition to explore the "Western Ocean" and never came back. Then in the 18th Century people in America came across a tribe of Indians who had some mmembers with fair hair, white skin and blue eyes. And there were Welsh words in their language!

See: http://www.newswales.co.uk/?section=Culture&F=1&id=5889
That's a fascinating read!

And of course for ancient british, read celtic and then start thinking about where the celts came from, ie, phoenicians, who were expert sailors...

This article seems to have a real stamp of authority to it. Interesting!

And of course, like the megaliths in europe, the celtic inscriptions could have been later additions to pre-existing monuments in some cases.
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Old 02-09-2009, 05:42 PM   #6
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There is actual evidence that the Vikings got to America so why not the Celts?

If Egyptian mummies have been found containing substances found on the other side of the Atlantic then it does tend to point to trans-oceanic trade routes in ancient times.
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Old 03-09-2009, 02:10 AM   #7
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I read a while back that there were concerted actions back in the 19th century to locate and destroy (or hide) any evidence that might point to earlier European acitivities in the americas.
Yes I guess it is more accurate to say the evidence gets suppressed rather than ignored. I read "Ghosts of Vesuvius" a few years ago (awesome book) and there have been Roman shipwrecks found off the coast of South America, and you never hear about that either!

Here is another interesting find in North America of unknown ancient origins:

http://farshores.org/am8struc.htm

Remote Ontario Lake Reveals Mysterious Ancient Structure




While divers were conducting a unique submarine project in MacDonald Lake at the Haliburton Forest and Wild Life Reserve, they encountered an ancient stone structure revealing proof of life from Central Ontario ancestors.


Haliburton, Ontario (PRWEB) March 5, 2008 -- While divers were conducting a unique submarine project in MacDonald Lake at the Haliburton Forest and Wild Life Reserve, they encountered an ancient stone structure revealing proof of life from Central Ontario ancestors.

The history of Eastern Canada is generally viewed in two stages: 1st - recent history, measured in decades and centuries, involving the early, white settlers and 2nd - the early history, measured in many centuries and millennia, represented by petroglyphs, stone mounds and arrow heads that takes us several hundred, sometimes a thousand or two years back into North America's native past.

A third stage may now have to be added: the ancient past, when the landscape hardly resembled the forest clad hills of today and the environment was just recovering from thousands of years of glaciation. Some ten thousand years ago, human populations were not measured in thousands or even millions like today, but dozens, or at best hundreds. Even this handful of ancestors managed to leave us proof of their existence. In a cold lake in remote Central Ontario a possible artifact has been recently discovered.

In the spring of 2005, diving was conducted in MacDonald Lake as part of a unique submarine project at the acclaimed Haliburton Forest and Wild Life Reserve (http://www.haliburtonforest.com). Haliburton Forest is a premiere Ontario attraction, well known for its commitment to education, wildlife and the environment. Repeatedly staff of Haliburton Forest would stumble upon an unusual stone structure, perched on top of a rock ledge at a depth of 40 feet below the present lake level. Initially the structure was considered a complex version of a "perched erratic", those monstrous rocks, ferried by the glaciers thousands of years ago and dumped where they happened to melt at the end of one of the recent cold-freezes. From across northern North America, examples of compound perched erratics are known, where 2 or even 3 rocks happened to land on top of each other, leaving behind a natural structure. Initially, this is what was considered to be the origin of the Haliburton Forest mystery rock formation. When several geologists and archaeologists saw images of this object - a 1,000 pound, elongated and south pointing rock sitting on baseball-sized stones at each end, which in turn, were resting on a massive, several thousand pound slab on top of the ledge, they expressed doubts about its natural origin. Foremost, the straight edges and lack of roundness, as would characterize rocks scoured by glaciers, prompted them to discard the erratic theory. But could the structure be of human origin? If so, how could that be established?

Haliburton Forest engaged the services of an underwater archaeologist to examine the structure. Before diving, he explained that so far he had never encountered man-made rock-cairns, which were stabilized without the help of shim-stones. If he found these, it would convince him of the structure's man-made, not natural, origin. After a 30 minute dive examining the rock assembly closely and carefully, taking pictures along the way, the expert emerged with his unequivocal conclusion: the existence of 3 shims was proof to him that the assembly of now seven rocks was the result of human activity and not a fluke of nature. Subsequently, Haliburton Forest turned to the services of a statistician to calculate the probability of 7 rocks falling on top of each other creating a "structure". Albeit difficult to assess, he reported back that even 4 rocks creating a natural structure was almost unattainable, but that the probability of 7 rocks hitting at the right time and place was virtually impossible. But who, and especially when was the structure erected? What was its purpose? Subsequent dives closely examined the structure for any signs of the use of tools, decorative images or other irregularities - to no avail. The thick layer of silt covering the vertical surfaces suggests that certainly within living memory no human has ever touched the structure.

Biologists and geologists weighed in to assist the puzzled archaeologists. The geologists pointed to a dramatic drought, which gripped Eastern North America between 9000 and 7000 BC. Conditions were so dry during that time that lake levels in the Great Lakes were up to 50 meters lower and inland lakes, like McDonald Lake, which were still fed by spring melt and summer rain water, were assumed several dozen feet lower than their present water levels. And why then, at a time when so few humans roamed Ontario, would they pick remote MacDonald Lake for a stone cairn, especially such a large, elaborate one? Here is where the biologist pointed to the conclusion of his 30 years of research: McDonald Lake is home to an ancient, glacial relic lake trout, which had survived several bouts of glaciation and retained unique features, which allowed it to survive, where other fish had perished. From his records, he could also add that McDonald Lake, in prehistoric times was not a lake, but part and north-westerly end-point of an ancient river system which, for millennia, funnelled glacial meltwater south into what was then mighty Lake Agassis.

Many visitors to Haliburton Forest who have seen images of the rock cairn have commented on its balanced, almost attractive appearance. The surface of the top rock is almost perfectly level. Many have pointed out the many similarities between the MacDonald Lake stone structure and an artic "inukshuk". The environment in the far north resembles what Central Ontario may have looked like after the retreat of the ice many thousands of years ago. The MacDonald Lake inukshuk sits at the edge of a deep ledge, pointing to the deepest hole in the entire chain of lakes, today some 150 feet deep. At times of dramatically lower lake levels, was this the pool where the ancient trout retreating to?

While many questions remain, it is very intriguing to imagine a small band of early humans, camped on the shores of a remote lake where today modern man camps and catches trout, just as his ancestors did thousands of years ago. The story of the MacDonald Lake stone structure adds a new dimension to resource use and stewardship in Ontario.

Haliburton Forest & Wildlife Reserve features wilderness adventure activities including the Wolf Centre, the Walk in the Clouds forest canopy tour, groomed snowmobile trails, mountain biking, dogsledding, hiking, astronomy, wildlife observation, as well as wilderness camping and accommodations. For more information, please visit http://www.haliburtonforest.com or call Dave Bishop at 705-754-2198.
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Old 03-09-2009, 02:15 AM   #8
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If Egyptian mummies have been found containing substances found on the other side of the Atlantic then it does tend to point to trans-oceanic trade routes in ancient times.
Are you talking about the 'cocaine mummies'? Them also had a good thread a while ago about a bird (a falcon I think) that is often portrayed in Egyptian art, but the bird is only found in the Americas.
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Old 03-09-2009, 09:31 AM   #9
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Thanks amercury:

Roman shipwrecks off South America?

You have to ask why anyone would want to suppress all this stuff?

The evidence is very strong. We know from the vikings that it was very feasible. The phoenicians were trading with Britain a long, long time ago. They were a seafaring nation par exellence.

Why cover up all this amazing stuff?
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Old 03-09-2009, 10:32 AM   #10
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Okay, just to get the wikipedia angle on Prince Madog ab Owain Gwynedd :


I've posted this link, because despite its bias wiki is often a good place to start looking, but also because of its bias wiki can give you an idea of what we are supposed to believe. Once you start pulling the covers of a wikipedia story you not only get closer to the truth but you understand better the mainstream lies and get some clues as to their agenda.

From wiki, the introduction:

Madoc (Standard Welsh: Madog) ab Owain Gwynedd was, according to folklore, a Welsh prince who discovered America in 1170, over three hundred years before Christopher Columbus's voyage in 1492. Madoc's existence has been the subject of much speculation, though no historical or archaeological evidence of such a man or his voyages has been found in the New or Old World. Most modern historians believe the story of Madoc's American voyage originated with Queen Elizabeth I of England's advisors around 1580, as a ploy to assert prior discovery, and hence legal possession, of North America by England

Compare wiki to the link posted by hagbard celine:

See: http://www.newswales.co.uk/?section=Culture&F=1&id=5889

Here is the text in full cos its dead interesting!

Did the Welsh discover America?
26/8/2002

A team of historians and researchers announced today that Radio Carbon dating evidence, and the discovery of ancient British style artefacts and inscriptions in the American Midwest, provide the strongest indications yet" that British explorers, under the Prince Madoc ap Meurig, arrived in the country during the 6th Century and set up colonies there.

Research team members have known the location of burial sites of Madoc's close relatives in Wales for some time, it emerged today; but they have decided to break their self-imposed silence in order that their research be fully known and understood. DNA evidence could provide vital new leads, they say.

"We have a mass of remarkable evidence," said British historian Alan Wilson, who has been working with Jim Michael of the Ancient Kentucke Historical Association since 1989. "As experts in ancient British history, we were approached by Jim and visited locations in the Mid West with him," he added.

Many of the grave mounds found in the American mid West, including those at Bat Creek, Tennessee, are ancient British in origin and design, Wilson said. Jim Michael added, "the stone tablet found at Bat Creek in 1889 included an inscription written in Coelbren, an ancient British alphabet known and recorded by historians and bards down the ages."

Wilson said that his research had brought him into contact with very similar alphabet inscriptions in Britain, Europe and the Middle East. "The components of the alphabet derive from the earliest days of the Khumric (Welsh) people," he added, "and were used along their migration routes to Wales in antiquity."


Wilson's research partner, Baram A. Blackett, said, "once we discovered the cipher for the alphabet in recorded in texts dating to the 1500s we knew we were in business. We have translated many of these inscriptions and they all make perfect sense." Jim Michael commented that the final translation for the Bat Creek tablet was an exciting task, "especially when we knew it read, 'Madoc the ruler he is'."

Some historians have written off the evidence for Prince Madoc, the Welsh Prince who sailed to America circa 562 (AD). "They often give a false date of 1170 and this legend has replaced the facts," added Wilson. "At the moment, there is a small group of wreckers trying to steal our research and to promote this misdating. Luckily, we've done all the groundwork and have a substantial body of evidence in our favour."

"In Britain and America the academics have been slow to respond," said Jim Michael. "There is a theory that there was no European settlement here before Columbus, despite the evidence, but this is for political and theoretical reasons." In the UK, public bodies had, "failed to engage with this vital research effort," added Alan Wilson. "I think they're afraid that an independent group such as ours has made such progress. They prefer to ignore and neglect ancient British history rather than to deal with it
. The Welsh people have suffered, and the opportunity to boost the economy, to bring thousands of jobs to Glamorgan and Gwent, where Madoc and his brother Arthur ll ruled, has not been exploited."

Public bodies in the US and UK must now start to actively pursue this new evidence, they say.

DNA profiling could help identify the human remains found at Bat Creek. "It could well be Madoc himself," said Blackett. "After all, the inscription was found right next to the bones, which are currently housed at the Smithsonian Institute in Washington DC."

Wilson, Blackett and their research team know the location of Madoc's close relatives and have made significant archaeological finds at sites nearby. "So we can use Welsh DNA evidence from the graves here, and compare it with the bone fragments in the Smithsonian," he said. "This would be of massive historical value." It is estimated that up to 20,000 jobs and hundreds of millions in tourism could be an immediate benefit in South Wales, claimed the men.

"In the American Mid West the results could be very similar," added Jim Michael.

Background

Wilson, Blackett, and Jim Michael made the identification of the Bat Creek main tumulus as the likely tomb of Prince Madoc, in January 1990. Michael has been in contact with the Smithsonian with a view to its allowing the bone fragments to be DNA tested.

There are numerous ancient British Coelbren inscriptions in the American mid West.

Skulls found in some US grave mounds are of European-Caucasian origin; they do not include an Inca bone.

There was only one Prince Madoc. He was the brother of King Arthur ll and lived during the 6th Century. This is not in doubt. Ancient British manuscripts and genealogies tell us this.


Alan Wilson and Baram Blackett have been investigating the true history of King Arthur and the Khumric-Welsh dynasty for a total of nearly 70 years. Wilson?s interest began in 1956 and Blackett joined him in 1976, when the Arthurian Research Foundation of Great Britain was started.

They have written the best-selling The Holy Kingdom (Bantam, 1999) with Adrian Gilbert and self-published underground classics including Arthur, King of Glamorgan and Gwent, Artorius Rex Discovered, Arthur and the Charters of the Kings and Arthur, The War King (a historical novel).

The men have lectured extensively in the UK, including Manchester and Jesus Colleges at Oxford University, and Alan Wilson gave the prestigious Bemis Lecture in Boston in 1993. Wilson and Blackett were also commissioned to produce a detailed genealogy of the Bush family by former President George Bush (senior).
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Old 05-09-2009, 10:31 AM   #11
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Originally Posted by marpat View Post
There is actual evidence that the Vikings got to America so why not the Celts?

If Egyptian mummies have been found containing substances found on the other side of the Atlantic then it does tend to point to trans-oceanic trade routes in ancient times.
Apparently the caves where these mummies were found are closed to the public. I wonder why.

Interestingly some mummies in their native Egypt have been analysed and shown that the person took cocaine while alive, proving that they'd either visited the Americas or had got hold of American products from somebody who had.
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Old 05-09-2009, 10:34 AM   #12
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Originally Posted by anthony65 View Post
Okay, just to get the wikipedia angle on Prince Madog ab Owain Gwynedd :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Madoc

I've posted this link, because despite its bias wiki is often a good place to start looking, but also because of its bias wiki can give you an idea of what we are supposed to believe. Once you start pulling the covers of a wikipedia story you not only get closer to the truth but you understand better the mainstream lies and get some clues as to their agenda.

From wiki, the introduction:

Madoc (Standard Welsh: Madog) ab Owain Gwynedd was, according to folklore, a Welsh prince who discovered America in 1170, over three hundred years before Christopher Columbus's voyage in 1492. Madoc's existence has been the subject of much speculation, though no historical or archaeological evidence of such a man or his voyages has been found in the New or Old World. Most modern historians believe the story of Madoc's American voyage originated with Queen Elizabeth I of England's advisors around 1580, as a ploy to assert prior discovery, and hence legal possession, of North America by England

Compare wiki to the link posted by hagbard celine:

See: http://www.newswales.co.uk/?section=Culture&F=1&id=5889

Here is the text in full cos its dead interesting!

Did the Welsh discover America?
26/8/2002

A team of historians and researchers announced today that Radio Carbon dating evidence, and the discovery of ancient British style artefacts and inscriptions in the American Midwest, provide the strongest indications yet" that British explorers, under the Prince Madoc ap Meurig, arrived in the country during the 6th Century and set up colonies there.

Research team members have known the location of burial sites of Madoc's close relatives in Wales for some time, it emerged today; but they have decided to break their self-imposed silence in order that their research be fully known and understood. DNA evidence could provide vital new leads, they say.

"We have a mass of remarkable evidence," said British historian Alan Wilson, who has been working with Jim Michael of the Ancient Kentucke Historical Association since 1989. "As experts in ancient British history, we were approached by Jim and visited locations in the Mid West with him," he added.

Many of the grave mounds found in the American mid West, including those at Bat Creek, Tennessee, are ancient British in origin and design, Wilson said. Jim Michael added, "the stone tablet found at Bat Creek in 1889 included an inscription written in Coelbren, an ancient British alphabet known and recorded by historians and bards down the ages."

Wilson said that his research had brought him into contact with very similar alphabet inscriptions in Britain, Europe and the Middle East. "The components of the alphabet derive from the earliest days of the Khumric (Welsh) people," he added, "and were used along their migration routes to Wales in antiquity."


Wilson's research partner, Baram A. Blackett, said, "once we discovered the cipher for the alphabet in recorded in texts dating to the 1500s we knew we were in business. We have translated many of these inscriptions and they all make perfect sense." Jim Michael commented that the final translation for the Bat Creek tablet was an exciting task, "especially when we knew it read, 'Madoc the ruler he is'."

Some historians have written off the evidence for Prince Madoc, the Welsh Prince who sailed to America circa 562 (AD). "They often give a false date of 1170 and this legend has replaced the facts," added Wilson. "At the moment, there is a small group of wreckers trying to steal our research and to promote this misdating. Luckily, we've done all the groundwork and have a substantial body of evidence in our favour."

"In Britain and America the academics have been slow to respond," said Jim Michael. "There is a theory that there was no European settlement here before Columbus, despite the evidence, but this is for political and theoretical reasons." In the UK, public bodies had, "failed to engage with this vital research effort," added Alan Wilson. "I think they're afraid that an independent group such as ours has made such progress. They prefer to ignore and neglect ancient British history rather than to deal with it
. The Welsh people have suffered, and the opportunity to boost the economy, to bring thousands of jobs to Glamorgan and Gwent, where Madoc and his brother Arthur ll ruled, has not been exploited."

Public bodies in the US and UK must now start to actively pursue this new evidence, they say.

DNA profiling could help identify the human remains found at Bat Creek. "It could well be Madoc himself," said Blackett. "After all, the inscription was found right next to the bones, which are currently housed at the Smithsonian Institute in Washington DC."

Wilson, Blackett and their research team know the location of Madoc's close relatives and have made significant archaeological finds at sites nearby. "So we can use Welsh DNA evidence from the graves here, and compare it with the bone fragments in the Smithsonian," he said. "This would be of massive historical value." It is estimated that up to 20,000 jobs and hundreds of millions in tourism could be an immediate benefit in South Wales, claimed the men.

"In the American Mid West the results could be very similar," added Jim Michael.

Background

Wilson, Blackett, and Jim Michael made the identification of the Bat Creek main tumulus as the likely tomb of Prince Madoc, in January 1990. Michael has been in contact with the Smithsonian with a view to its allowing the bone fragments to be DNA tested.

There are numerous ancient British Coelbren inscriptions in the American mid West.

Skulls found in some US grave mounds are of European-Caucasian origin; they do not include an Inca bone.

There was only one Prince Madoc. He was the brother of King Arthur ll and lived during the 6th Century. This is not in doubt. Ancient British manuscripts and genealogies tell us this.


Alan Wilson and Baram Blackett have been investigating the true history of King Arthur and the Khumric-Welsh dynasty for a total of nearly 70 years. Wilson?s interest began in 1956 and Blackett joined him in 1976, when the Arthurian Research Foundation of Great Britain was started.

They have written the best-selling The Holy Kingdom (Bantam, 1999) with Adrian Gilbert and self-published underground classics including Arthur, King of Glamorgan and Gwent, Artorius Rex Discovered, Arthur and the Charters of the Kings and Arthur, The War King (a historical novel).

The men have lectured extensively in the UK, including Manchester and Jesus Colleges at Oxford University, and Alan Wilson gave the prestigious Bemis Lecture in Boston in 1993. Wilson and Blackett were also commissioned to produce a detailed genealogy of the Bush family by former President George Bush (senior).
Thanks for the info.

Sadly the Mandans, the tribe of Indians who show European racial features and linguistic connection to the alleged Welsh explorers were, like most Native Americans, wiped out.
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Old 05-09-2009, 11:26 AM   #13
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That's a fascinating read!

And of course for ancient british, read celtic and then start thinking about where the celts came from, ie, phoenicians, who were expert sailors...

This article seems to have a real stamp of authority to it. Interesting!

And of course, like the megaliths in europe, the celtic inscriptions could have been later additions to pre-existing monuments in some cases.
I mentioned earlier in the thread that one of the clues to follow is the history / origins of the celts, which are sometimes said to be from the Phoenicians / The Sea Peoples.

Well I found an interesting site that claims that the Phoenicians did indeed visit the Americas in the pre-Christian era:

There is a phoenician coin shown that supposedly shows a world map, which I could also be interpreted as the phoenician sphere of influence / trading empire. The coin shows the Mediterranean, including North Africa of course, Spain, France and up to the south of Britain (Cornish tin was traded for a long time and was familiar to the ancient Greeks). But the interesting thing is the coin shows land to the west; the Americas!

The Phoenicians apparently are related to the ancient canaanites. More research needed as this goes back in time!

Not forgetting to mention of course the legendary lost tribe of the hebrews...

Or the Arthurian legend links; see my previous post where wilson and Blackett have written many books about Arthur.

But they are also the chosen genealogists of the Bush family...

Curiouser and curiouser!

The Atlantis legends will of course crop up when discussing the megalith origins in america...

http://phoenicia.org/america.html

If Mark McMenamin is correct, neither Columbus nor the Vikings were the first non-natives to set foot on the Americas. McMenamin, the Mount Holyoke geologist who last year led an expedition that discovered the oldest animal fossil found to date, may have made another discovery--one that sheds radical new light on present conceptions of the Classical world and on the discovery of the New World.

Working with computer-enhanced images of gold coins minted in the Punic/Phoenician city in North Africa of Carthage between 350 and 320 BC, (please see sketch of coin right and where the world map is supposed to have been inscribed) McMenamin has interpreted a series of designs appearing on these coins, the meaning of which has long puzzled scholars. McMenamin believes the designs represent a map of the ancient world, including the area surrounding the Mediterranean Sea and the land mass representing the Americas.

If this is true, these coins not only represent the oldest maps found to date, but would also indicate that Carthaginian explorers had sailed to the New World.

In fact, it was his interest in the Carthaginians as explorers that led McMenamin to study the coins. The Carthaginians were closely linked to the Phoenicians of the Middle East in terms of origin, culture, language, and naval enterprise. Both peoples are widely credited with significant sailing exploits through the Mediterranean, to the British Isles, and along the coast of Africa.

This detail of a gold coin shows what McMenamin believes is a map of the Mediterranean area, surrounded by Europe, Britain, Africa, and (at left) the Americas. The image appears on coins minted in Carthage between 350 and 320 BC. The enhanced and colorized version is based on the illustrations courtesy of Mark McMenamin.

In one of the coins studied by McMenamin, a horse stands atop a number of symbols at the bottom of the coin. For many years, scholars interpreted these symbols as letters in Phoenician script. When that theory was discounted in the 1960s, it left scholars baffled. Working over the past few months, McMenamin was able to interpret the design as a representation of the Mediterranean, surrounded by the land masses of Europe and Africa, with, to the upper left, the British Isles. To the far left of the representation of the Mediterranean is what the geologist believes is a depiction of the Americas.

A number of classical texts bolster this theory. For example, in the first century bc, Diodorus of Sicily wrote "...in the deep off Africa is an island of considerable size...fruitful, much of it mountainous.... Through it flow navigable rivers....The Phoenicians had discovered it by accident after having planted many colonies throughout Africa."

"I was just the lucky person who had the geologic and geographic expertise to view these coins in a new light," McMenamin notes. "I have been interested in the Carthaginians as the greatest explorers in the history of the world."

McMenamin's interest in Carthage led him to master the Phoenician language. He has published two pamphlets on his work regarding the Carthaginian coins. One is written in ancient Phoenician, representing probably the first new work in that language in 1500 years.

He has submitted a paper on his theory to The Numismatist, a leading journal in the study of coins, which has accepted McMenamin's paper on the theory for publication. At the same time, the scholar is trying to gain access to a number of coins --or casts of their impressions-- currently held in European collections. These impressions will further aid him, he hopes, in proving the world map theory's validity. "If I had the time and the money," McMenamin observes, only half-kidding, "I'd be in North Africa with my metal detector trying to find Carthaginian coins to further confirm my hypothesis."

Additional study may well reveal that it was Punic explorers not Europeans who "discovered" the New World. At the very least, McMenamin hopes his theory will focus new scholarly attention on ancient Carthaginian culture.
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Old 05-09-2009, 11:36 AM   #14
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Phoenicians in Brazil?

http://phoenicia.org/brazil.html

It is Herodotus, the famous Greek historian, who tells us that "the Carthaginian senate published a decree in order to forbid -under penalty of death -- to organize or to take trips to the other side of the Atlantic ocean because the frequent coming of men and resources were emptying the capital"

Here is the full text. Even the website has a disclaimer, so take this all with a pinch of salt to be reearched in more detail. It's interesting reading anyway and might contain a few more clues to follow and investigate!

This website has links to Charlemagne and the merovingians. It also mentions the "catastrophe" 11,000 years ago.

Phoenician Colonization
About 11,000 years ago (9500 B. C.) our planet was hit by a huge cataclysm when a good part of the Andes Cordillera was raised. The big lake where today the Sahara desert is dried out, the limits of the Mediterranean sea were altered, and the very large continent- island that existed in the middle of the Atlantic ocean, known as Atlantis, sank.

The causes of the catastrophe are not completely known yet but it is believed that one of its probable causes was the arrival of a huge mass of a celestial body that might have passed near Earth provoking tremendous tensions in the internal magma of the planet. Those real magma "tides" have submitted the thin solid crust of the planet into stronger pressures than it could support. In many points the soil became distended and in others it wrinkled. There were furthermore sinking and rises in some other parts of soil.

Atlantis was the main victim of those cataclysms that caused the fall of its powerful civilization. It is enough to say that various ancient texts state that after the continent- island's sinking, its survivors went on to Africa.

Plato tells us about the fights that they had with the Egyptians and Greeks and how they finally were defeated. However, they left indelible marks on the ancient people's culture such as in the Phoenician civilization that was their successor in the sea trade.

The Phoenicians inhabited the Mediterranean coasts, the narrow and fertile strip located between the sea and the mountains of Lebanon and Anti- Lebanon. Their small territory, the presence of powerful neighbours and the existence of much cedar wood (quite good for naval construction) in the mountain forests may have been the additional elements that guided the Phoenician civilization towards the exploration of the seas.

They built numerous and powerful fleets. They also visited the north African coasts and all the European south, traded in Italy, entered the Black Sea and left the Mediterranean Sea by crossing the Pillars of Hercules (today's Strait of Gibraltar and previously called the Pillars of Melqart) reaching the Atlantic ocean's African coast, and finally arrived at the Tin Islands in England. Always trading, the Phoenicians built marts and warehouses along their routes. When they could, they stole a little but always trying not to provoke powerful enemies who they preferred to weaken with gold products, instead of doing it by the sword or by fighting. The Phoenician agents and diplomats were familiar with almost every war fought at that time and they used to take advantage of it. They navigated the African continental coast in order to follow the opposite way that would be traced by Vasco da Gama much later. And more evidence seems to confirm that the Phoenicians used to cross the Atlantic Ocean to visit the "New Continent". The Phoenicians navigated by using the technique of stars orientation, the sea flows and through the winds courses. So, by following those factors their captains covered huge distances with precision. They were already influential about the year 2000 BC but their power grew with Abibaal's (in 1020 BC) and Hiram's leadership. Byblos, Sidon and Tyre were successive capitals of a state- city trading empire, united before anything else by ties of interest, habits and religion instead of a more rigid political structure.

Phoenicians in Brazil
Brazil is full of vestiges that corroborate the Phoenician presence in its lands and everything indicates that they concentrated their occupation in the northeastern region. A little away from the Longá and Parnaiba rivers' confluence, in Piaui state, there is a lake where Phoenician shipyards and a harbour with a place reserved to tie the "Carpássios" (old long traveling ships) were discovered.

By navigating the Mearim river up north, in Maranhão state, when arriving in the Pindaré and Grajaú rivers' confluence we can find the Pensiva lake before known as Maracu. In that lake's borders there can be found shipyards made of petrified wood containing thick nails and bronze dowels. Researcher Raimundo Lopes, born in Maranhão State, excavated that location at the end of the twenties and discovered typically Phoenician tools.

In Rio Grande do Norte state, after roaming a 11 km canal, the Phoenician boats used to anchor in the Extremoz lake. The Austrian professor Mr. Ludwig Schwennhagen studied the place's subterranean parts and the embankments carefully and also some others that exist near the village of Touro where the Phoenician navigators anchored after roaming about 10 km of a canal. The same professor Schwennhagen tells us that he found Phoenician inscriptions in the Amazon in which there were references to many kings of Sidon and Tyre (887 to 856 BC).

Schwennhagen believes that the Phoenicians used Brazil as a base during 800 years at least, leaving here, besides material evidences, an important linguistic influence among the natives.

In the rivers Camocim (Ceará State), Parnaiba (Piaui State) and Mearim (Maranhão state) entrance accesses there are stone and lime walls built by the ancient Phoenicians.

Apollinaire Frot, a French researcher, traveled all over the Brazilian countryside in order to collect Phoenician inscriptions in the Minas Gerais, Goiás, Mato Grosso and Bahia sierras. The inscriptions that he put together are so many that "they would fill uncountable volumes if they were ever published", according to Frot's statements.

The translation of those inscriptions refers to Phoenician works in Brazil, to their trade activity practiced in those distant lands and to the sinking of Atlantis. Some inscriptions reveal that because of the geological shocks that hit Atlantis, its survivors went to the north of Africa to found the empire of Egypt and many other nations of the region known today as the "Middle East". Those inscriptions still mention the biblical flood that, according to them, was not a universal catastrophe but only a local cataclysm in the Mesopotarmia region. This is a fact that scientists accept as veridical nowadays.

The economic leadership condition, on whose trade others depended, gave Phoenicia a kind of stability that allowed its existence to last so long without having strong armed forces. Phoenicia survived the Egyptian, the Syrian and the Assyrian hegemonies and even the Persian domination. Finally a strange racial element appeared the invaders from Europe. Thus Phoenicia trembled, at first under the Greek invasion headed by Alexander the Great and later under the power of the Roman legions.

With such a war the trading practices were interrupted and the far away colonies and marts now abandoned, started to be destroyed by local populations. The inhabitants of those regions, too far from the metropolis, withdrew into a primitive status. Although these are just theories, it would explain the blond hair and the diverse physical constitutions of savages that can be found among some Brazilian Indian tribes in the Amazon. It would also explain the light skin and the big number of Phoenician expressions and words used by the Tiriós Indians.

Carthage, the largest of the Phoenician colonies, survived and prospered when it inherited the sea trade from its ancient colonizing cities. It is Herodotus, the famous Greek historian, who tells us that "the Carthaginian senate published a decree in order to forbid -under penalty of death -- to organize or to take trips to the other side of the Atlantic ocean because the frequent coming of men and resources were emptying the capital".

Finally there is the famous inscription in the "Pedra da Gávea" (Gavea's Rock) in Rio de Janeiro which states: "Here Badezir, King of Tyre, Jetbaal's oldest son".

There is no scientific or cultural work in Brazil that has affirmative data about the Phoenician coming to its territory. However, there are in some foreign material references to the Phoenecian navigators in Brazilian lands before its European discovery. Although that information may seem unreal, legendary and fictitious, I want to believe that it is really true.

Phoenician inscriptions found in Tyre, known today as Sur (its name in Arabic), are on tombstones, which are now in London. They mention an expedition of a Phoenician navigator to a region beyond the Strait of Moloch (today's Gibraltar) where "the sea penetrated into the land..." a place where there was an abundance of food and lots of wood.

There still is another --fact: in excavations that took place in Sidon, French archaeologists found in 1860 many wooden artifacts that only could have been taken from Brazil, according to archaeological tests. It is the famous "quebracho" or "quebra machado" (the "ax breaker") as it its known in the Brazilian countryside. Besides that kind of wood a red coloured one was found whose denomination today in Arabic remains the same as the one in Phoenician times: "Shajarat Ahmar" -- known in Portuguese as Pau- Brasil.

By the way, what is the origin of the name, which is given to the Amazon River after its source?

The answer to that question is in the Louvre Museum archives, in the Royal Museum of London and also in Vatican and Lisbon historic documents that state the Solimões River's name came from its primitive denomination, which might be "Sulaiman". So, it would be in honour of the great King of Israel -- Sulaiman (Salomon) -- given by his vassals who arrived in those regions guided by the Phoenicians, a few years before the Christian Era.

All the cuneiform inscriptions discovered in the Amazon region, in the Ararí area, as well as in French Guyana and Surinam such as hieroglyphs and rock characters demonstrate clearly its origin from Aramaic, Syriac and even Sanskrit scripts.

In the National Historic Museum many photographs show us huge inscriptions that are widely spread from the Solimões River up to the point where its name changes to Amazon River (from Ararí to Madeira River). Those inscriptions demonstrate just a little of the greatness of the others that exist all over Brazil.

Someone has already tried to show in Rio de Janeiro that the Maya people might have written the Gavea's Rock inscriptions. Nevertheless they are hieroglyphic inscriptions mixed with the Phoenician alphabet and originally engraved by Phoenician navigators. Other evidences are four Phoenician characters (signs) engraved on the peak of a big rock known as "Pão de Açúcar" (The Sugar Loaf).

There are various confirmations that say Brazil was already known by many sailors from the Near East even before its discovery by the Portuguese. The first European navigator to be familiar with this land was the Roman Severus Pompeus, whose documents related to that fact is in the Vatican archives. He obtained from a "Syrian" slave a report and a confirmation of the existence of others lands. What is ignored is why that navigator did not try to verify those stories by himself.

The Phoenician explorers were not interested in lands. They were really interested in its native products. So, they were not a colonizing people but a trading one.

Columbus, the great navigator from Genoa, had never been to the lands of which he used to talk so much. However, he had an itinerary, a map and other real documents concerning those distant lands. How did he get them? Some ancient historians tell the following tale about that: "One day, at his house, without anything to do, Columbus realized that in his residential area there was something buried in the ground. So, he started digging quickly and he found a rotten wooden box. Inside it there was many human bones (even a skull) and among those bones Columbus found some papyri documents. Because he already had some nautical knowledge- he was quite a good sailor- he became intrigued with the discovery and went to look for information with an uncle of his whom belonged to a religious institution and who also was a very respected person in the Spanish Royalty. Columbus gave his uncle what he had found, and he took them to one of his colleagues. Then both of them verified that those papers were descriptive maps made by a sailor from Tripoli (Trabulus) which had been buried many centuries before the fifteenth century when the place where Columbus' house was had been the sea's border.

Afterwards, Columbus got an opinion from a very important cartographer about those exceptional findings. He declared that region as being a huge territory located beyond the Pillars of Hercules (Strait of Gibraltar). He also said that its wealth was so great and there were such valuable treasures kept in that place that he who could dominate it would be considered "the Lord of the World".

Then from that day on and protected by his uncle, Columbus started to visit the Portuguese and the Spanish courts in order to obtain concession, financing and support to be the "Lord of the World".

It is said that such a report is a legend but I believe it is true: Columbus came and discovered the American continent.

In the "sambaquís" spread throughout Brazil many objects and rock inscriptions have been found. Some writers, based on paleontology material, have been writing that its origin is Indian. Other paleontologists who searched and penetrated into thousands of caves, grottos and lime cesspools declared that it its neither possible to define the exact geological erosion of the Brazilian lands nor to determine an ancient settlement in Brazil before its European discovery.

Nevertheless the Maya, the Toltec and the Aztec civilizations predominated all over the American continent. Those populations did not spring from the ground and only two other peoples could be their ancestors: the Phoenicians or the Chinese. From the Phoenicians, because they dominated the western seas and from the Chinese because they dominated the Far East seas. However, those basis are uncertain and imperfect just because until today historians were not able to elucidate such a vulnerable fact about the American pre-civilization History.

When Baron von Humboldt, at the end of the eighteenth century, took research trips to explore the Brazilian countryside, he reached the Orenoco slopes and was surprised by the greatness that Maya, Inca and Aztec civilizations offered to anyone's eyes and mind. He verified that the legends about the existence of the Amazon women- whose name was given to the river- were true.

Beuchat cites the important Inca influence in the South American civilization as well as the Aztec influence in Mexico and in Central American societies.

We can still hear about the lost cities in the Brazilian countryside region, the petrified cities such as the one known as "Sete Cidades" (Seven Cities) in the state of Piaui and others in wild zones like the states of Mato Grosso, Goiás and Amazonas.

From São Luis dos Cáceres up to the north in the state of Mato Grosso, there are places that show the existence of buried cities that are the remains of a millenarian civilization very well.

Doctor Peter W. Lund, a great Danish scholar, came up with the theory of a precivilization in Brazil and the Phoenician contribution in its formation.

The Brazilian Indians, known as Carajás and Carajá-ís, have on their names the etymology of the words whose Phoenician origin can be found in today's Arabic language. Some other Brazilian Indian tribes such as the Guaranis, the Tupis, the Guajajaras, the Chambicás, the Anajás, the Carijós, etc., have in their vocabulary thousands of Arabian words whose origin is Phoenician.

Maya and Aztec civilizations differ little from the Phoenicians. Their merchants, governors, administration, clans and their moral education clearly show us the ethnology of their civil way of life.

The Indians who deal with oil, in the north of Brazil, and who still today execute the Marajoaras work perfectly, adopt the same systems used by the Phoenician workers with oil who mixed wood and vine ashes with mud (clay) in order to produce ceramics. The resemblance among these drawings, the pots' shapes, the small statues and other Indian works and the Phoenician artifacts is noteworthy.

The same Phoenician burial ritual -- the one that buried the dead with all the objects that belonged to them -- also was adopted by almost all Brazilian Indian tribes.

The Phoenicians had a factory or a mart in a region, legendarily known as Atlantis that in their language meant -- according to the Phoenician term "Al- Atlantic"--: huge, large, extensive, vast, endless. And in Arabic "Al- Atlantic" means giant, majestic.

When I went on some trips into the Brazilian countryside, I saw some coins that had been found in Brazilian ground whose origin is completely unknown. Making a comparison among these coins and Paraguayan, Bolivian and Peruvian coins their resemblance to coins from Sidon and Tyre is very great.

In the Rio de Janeiro National Museum there exist tombstones with Phoenician, Syriac and Sanskrit inscriptions found in the Brazilian countryside.

Edmund Bleibel, a distinguished Lebanese historian, in his books "General History of Lebanon", published in Beirut, states: "when the Phoenicians were established in Africa, and Gibraltar was the limit of their empire, they planned to cross the huge ocean towards the unknown".

Then Ilu of Jbail (Byblos) and his wife Harmonia (Harmony) prepared a big fleet and navigated the enormous sea looking for the "Eternal Islands" (Canary Islands) but they disappeared forever. It was said that their souls embodied two serpents, which meant that their lives had been renewed by god, Baal's will.

Later it was corroborated that they had crossed the huge ocean and discovered the region where today is South America. So, that happened 3,000 years before Christopher Columbus.

They gave the first new land they discovered the name of "Barr Ilu" which means "The Continent of God". When the nation was formed and its administration was organized, the chosen queen to rule that place was Mirinieh Mirubieh known as "Queen of the Amazones" which means "Queen of the Warriors". That queen was sent to Lebanon to save Ilu of Jbail (Byblos) who was in a critical situation.

The "Queen of the Amazons" called "The Big Ocean" the ocean known before as 'Mirubi Ocean" which today is the Atlantic Ocean. This last denomination was in honour of Atlas, the great Phoenician king of Lybia

Cadmus, the great navigator of Tyre, left his city -- Cadamiat -- on a scientific mission in order to study the Cuchite language spoken in Brazil.

A few historians have been investigating the origin of such a language and they found many evidences that confirm the Phoenician's coming to Brazil bringing with them some Greek workers before any other people. The historian Deodoro told the way they might have arrived here. That fact was confirmed by Plutarch and was mentioned by the great Brazilian historian Rui Barbosa, as well as by other Brazilian poets who sang on their lyres the Phoenician and their monuments on the Brazilian soil.

Each fleet that left Sidon, Jbail and Tyre had 200 or 300 boats that headed to Brazil. The smallest one was used to bring the members of the crew with their support material and equipment. They usually stopped to rest and also to buy supplies in Tunis and at the Canary Islands.

Among the Phoenician civilization monuments in Brazil there is a city that was called "Airo", today completely lost in the admirable immensity of this country. Its ancient inhabitants were proud of belonging to the Phoenician lineage just like the Irish people. They used to say that they were Tyrian descendants who, during King Hiram's time, came to take gold. They took this precious metal to Tyre and to King Salomon of Jerusalem from the land of Ofir, where this mineral was very abundant. It is located in the Amazon River borders.

Finally we verify that truth is clear and positive. I wish the Brazilian honourable governors could help twentieth century dedicated scientists to research, in the Brazilian entrails, for its pre- historic reality, the one of its archaic civilization, and maybe we would have even surpassed the Greek and the Roman civilizations.


May be beyond the scope of this thread, but for those who might find it interesting: Phoenicians in Australia!

http://phoenicia.org/australia.html

Last edited by anthony65; 05-09-2009 at 11:38 AM.
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Old 05-09-2009, 11:51 AM   #15
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Originally Posted by hagbard_celine View Post
Thanks for the info.

Sadly the Mandans, the tribe of Indians who show European racial features and linguistic connection to the alleged Welsh explorers were, like most Native Americans, wiped out.
The Mandan indians, also known as the white indians, suspected by some to have mixed with Madoc's Welsh at some time.

** This is the tribe that inspired The man called horse! Including the famous ceremony where Richard Harris is suspended in the air by claws through his chest.

http://freepages.family.rootsweb.anc...n/mandans.html


Here is a book about the Mandans, "Footprints of the Welsh Indians" including some online text:

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=s...0welsh&f=false

http://books.google.co.uk/books?id=s...0welsh&f=false



Here is a questions and answers page that seeks to provide some counter-arguments;

http://www.native-languages.org/iaq10.htm

Another disclaimer site:

http://www.languagegeek.com/siouan/m...not_welsh.html

** But are these language comparisons fair? Considering that the Mandan Indians were eventually wiped out completely and they merged with other tribes, then is it fair to look for the welsh language here? And the reports in the book "Footprints of the Welsh Indians" speak of the mandans mixing with the welsh colonists of Tennessee. Back then the mandans were a large tribe, so the influence of the welsh spearkers may have been small...

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Old 05-09-2009, 01:10 PM   #16
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Back to the idea of a Phoenician link to the celts.

http://phoenicia.org/celts.html

This page makes reference to LA Waddell, Phoenician origin of Britons, Scots and Anglo-Saxons" This is an author who I think David Icke has quoted quite a lot. But unfortunately his books seem to be hard to some by.


http://special.lib.gla.ac.uk/manuscr...?NID=6068&RID=

http://www.jrbooksonline.com/waddell.htm

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Old 05-09-2009, 03:51 PM   #17
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Apparently the caves where these mummies were found are closed to the public. I wonder why.

Interestingly some mummies in their native Egypt have been analysed and shown that the person took cocaine while alive, proving that they'd either visited the Americas or had got hold of American products from somebody who had.
Exactly
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Old 05-09-2009, 04:02 PM   #18
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Hi everyone,

This is a subject close to my heart at the moment, but I'm only just starting to research into it.

For those who are not aware already, there are a number of standing stones on the east coast of the USA, some of which apparently have runic inscriptions on them that are similar to ogham, the old irish runic language.

Rudolf Steiner wrote about one hundred years ago that there were many visits by Europeans to America until the catholic church decided to stop them. Steiner mentions Norway and of course there were norse settlements in Greenland and beyond. Interestingly the celtic church was very active in Norway in the 9th and 10th centuries:

There is a book about this called the viking serpent. The celtic priests apparently built a number of churches across (pre-christian) Norway in the form of an enormous pentagon. Here is a website for the book: http://www.thevikingserpent.com/

The serpent cult! Lots of serpent symbolism in the celtic and norse worlds.

Here is a book I just found about the standing stones in America. I don't know how good this book is.

http://www.amazon.com/Mysteries-Wind.../dp/1596052252

Another link here:

http://books.google.de/books?id=Obgd...merica&f=false

Steiner had the theory that settlers from ancient greece colonized ireland a long time ago. He reckoned that Ireland was very, very special! I think this is another clue in the celtic visitations to north america.

I will post more information as I find it, but I'd appreciate any info that people might have.

Another link... Megalithic remains in new hampshire, discusses the celts and phoenicians (it's very good!)

http://planetvermont.com/pvq/v9n2/megaliths.html
Hi Anthony.

thanks for the links there

This is also something that intrigues me geeatly.

Some time ago i was talkiing to a good friend of mine who is Native American Shaman, he was telling me a story, passed down through many generations about the old times of Turtle Island (America). Some of the tribes people would go on a journey with the Shaman to a magical land to gather herbs and ointments for healing, the land was called Place of Emeralds, or the Emerald Country. They would journey there through a great cave, and while they were gathering berries and leaves a giant bear would stand guard at the cave mouth. The story tells that one day a great storm came and shook the land, the mountain side collapsed and the cave entrance was destroyed, along with the great bear who stood there and the people were forever marooned on the island of Emeralds.

Apparently many years late, excavations at a site in Ireland revealed a great cave and the skull of a bear not indigineous to Ireland in the cave mouth.

Tis a nice story, though i'm niot sure how much of it is based in factual info

Stories like the remarkable resemblance of standing stones and their markings, situated on different continents are amazing. It is a little like the zigaruts of south america and their semblance to the early step pyramids of egypt. I think i also read somehwere that thereare native Americans who speak an ancient gorm of Gaelic as was once spoken in Wales. I think there are a lot of interchangable words between Indian tribes and Tibetan people also.

The world is a lot smaller than we may believe.

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Old 05-09-2009, 10:04 PM   #19
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Hi Merlincove.

Thanks for the story.

I mentioned LA Waddell which reminded me of David and Icke, and after checking through the Icke books, for example, "The Biggest Secret", I see that David has covered the whole Celtic / Phoenician connections in some depth, with sources of course, and he seems to indicate that Columbus didn't "discover" the Americas (I'm sure he's clearer than that but I just haven't read it yet).

I think I have to take a closer look at Wilson and Blackett and their evidence, bearing in mind that they were the Bush family genealogists, which would indicate that they are part of the big game.

It's interesting how the dusty old subject of history is apparently worthy of such a high degree of manipulation and how as always the elite keep all bases covered. So many of the alternative historians seem to be compromised in one way or another...
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Old 05-09-2009, 10:16 PM   #20
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Default The Bat Creek Stone

The Bat Creek Stone is one of the pieces of evidence quoted by Wilson and Blackett as an indication of pre-Columbus European activity in the Americas:

Here is a photo of the stone:

http://www.econ.ohio-state.edu/jhm/arch/batcrk.jpg

And here is the accompanying article: There are a few possible interpretations given, plus of course the possibility that this was a hoax, the masonic alternative. Giving weight to the authenticity of the stone is the carbon dating of wood fragments found with the stone.

The article seems to show that the Welsh connection made by Wilson and Blackett is rather thin in this case. Tennessee is the area given in other articles for a welsh settlement.

http://www.econ.ohio-state.edu/jhm/arch/batcrk.html

The Bat Creek Stone was professionally excavated in 1889 from an undisturbed burial mound in Eastern Tennessee by the Smithsonian's Mound Survey project. The director of the project, Cyrus Thomas, initially declared that the curious inscription on the stone were "beyond question letters of the Cherokee alphabet." (Thomas 1894: 391:4)
In the 1960s, Henriette Mertz and Corey Ayoob both noticed that the inscription, when inverted from Thomas's orientation to that of the above photograph, instead appeared to be ancient Semitic. The late Semitic languages scholar Cyrus Gordon (1971) confirmed that it is Semitic, and specifically Paleo-Hebrew of approximately the first or second century A.D. According to him, the five letters to the left of the comma-shaped word divider read, from right to left, LYHWD, or "for Judea." He noted that the broken letter on the far left is consistent with mem, in which case this word would instead read LYHWD[M], or "for the Judeans."

Hebrew scholar and archaeologist Robert Stieglitz (1976) confirmed Gordon's reading of the longer word, and identifed the second letter of the shorter word as a qoph. Mertz (1964) herself had first proposed that the first letter is a (reversed) resh. The main line would then read RQ , LYHWD[M], i.e. "Only for Judea," or "Only for the Judeans" if the broken letter is included.

In Paleo-Hebrew, words are required to be separated by a dot or short diagonal stroke serving as a word divider, rather than by a space as in English or modern Hebrew. The short diagonal word divider used on the Bat Creek inscription is less common than the dot, but appears both in the Siloam inscription and the Qumran Paleo-Hebrew Leviticus scroll.

In 1988, wood fragments found with the inscription were Carbon-14 dated to somewhere between 32 A.D. and 769 A.D.(McCulloch 1988). This range is consistent with Gordon's dating of the letters.

In McCulloch (1988) I note that although a few of the letters could be taken for Cherokee in either orientation, and although several of the letters are not perfect as Paleo-Hebrew, the inscription matches Hebrew much better than Cherokee. As English, for example, the main line could be forced to read "4SENL , YP" (sic) in the Mertz/Gordon orientation, or "dh ' 7NESb" in Thomas's orientation. The match to Cherokee is no better than to English, and no one has ever proposed a Cherokee reading of the inscription.

The lone letter below the main line is problematic, but could conceivably be either an aleph or a waw, in which case it might be a numeral indicating Year 1 or 6, respectively, of some era. The two vertical strokes above the main line are test scratches made by an unknown party while the stone was at the Smithsonian, sometime between 1894 and 1971.


Surely Hebrew, but Masonic?
American archaeologists Robert C. Mainfort, Jr., and Mary L. Kwas have recently argued in American Antiquity (2004) that the inscription was copied from an illustration in an 1870 Masonic reference book, and is therefore clearly a nineteenth century forgery that must have been introduced by the Smithsonian field assistant who found it. The entry in question, an 1860s artist's impression of how the Biblical phrase QDSh LYHWH, or "Holy to Yahweh," would have looked in Paleo-Hebrew letters, is reproduced below:


Macoy (1868, p. 134)
Both inscriptions do contain two words, with the identical string LYHW- beginning the longer second word in both cases. However, the fifth letter of the second word is clearly different in the two cases. The Bat Creek word ends with a daleth, which also happens to be the second letter of the first word in the Masonic illustration, making the Bat Creek word "for Judea." The Masonic word ends with a second he, which makes it "for Yahweh" instead. The Bat Creek word also has the remnant of a sixth letter, presumably mem, that is completely absent from Macoy's illustration.

In fact it is not surprising that two Hebrew inscriptions would both contain the string LYHW-. The common prefix L- simply forms the dative case, indicating for, to, or belonging to the word that follows. The string YHW-, or Yahu-, the first three letters of the name YHWH or Yahweh of the Hebrew God, is a common theophoric component of Hebrew names. Judah or Yehud (YHWD in the Persian era, according to Gordon) is one such "Yahwist" name. A modern example of such a name is that of Benjamin Netanyahu, prime minister of Israel from 1996-1999.

The January/February 2006 Biblical Archaeology Review happens to contain a photograph of a bulla (seal impression) that was recently excavated from Jersualem's City of David under the supervision of Hebrew University archaeologist Eilat Mazar. The inscription, in Old Hebrew letters closely related to those in the Macoy illustration, begins with the Masonic string LYHW- in the word LYHWKL, or "belonging to Yehucal" (Mazar 2006: 26). The second line actually contains the tell-tale string -YHW again, in the name of Yehucal's father, ShLMYHW or Shelemiyahu. However, the presence of the string LYHW- on both the Yehucal bulla and the Masonic illustration does not prove that the Mazar assistant who supposedly found the new bulla cribbed it from Macoy's book, but merely that this is a common component of Hebrew inscriptions. Likewise, the presence of this string on Bat Creek does not require it to have been copied from Macoy.

The shorter first words of the Bat Creek and Masonic inscriptions are also clearly different, the Bat Creek word having two letters and the Masonic word three. The distinctive W-like shin of the Biblical QDSh (Qedosh) is entirely missing on Bat Creek. The first letters of the two words do have essentially the same form, but are in fact different: In Macoy's illustration, this is clearly meant to be a qoph, but as such is not well made, since in Paleo-Hebrew it should have, in addition to a loop on the right, an arm to the left with an uptick at the end. This arm in fact appears on the second Bat Creek letter, which was consequently identified by Stieglitz as a qoph. Since this alternate form of Q is already present on Bat Creek, the first letter must be something different, and makes most sense as an inverted (rho-wise) resh, as originally proposed by Mertz. The second letter (D) on the Masonic inscription does look a little like the second letter (Q) on Bat Creek, but in fact there is already a D on Bat Creek, at the end of the second word, that looks nothing like the second Bat Creek letter. These are therefore different letters as well.

However, the most telling difference between the Bat Creek and Masonic inscriptions is in the different ways the two words are separated. Macoy's illustrator, who was undoubtedly working from a newly-available dictionary chart of Jewish War coinscript letters to transcribe standard Square Hebrew into the older alphabet, erroneously assumed that the words should be separated by a space, as in English or modern Hebrew. Bat Creek instead correctly uses a word divider. There is no way this subtle detail could have been copied from Macoy's illustration, even if the copyist threw in a few random changes to disguise his or her source.

If nothing else, the Masonic illustration newly discovered by Mainfort and Kwas does show that Bat Creek has an undeniable affinity to Paleo-Hebrew, and that this affinity should have been recognized already in 1889 by any competent student of antiquities. The fact that Thomas and subsequent American archaeologists failed to see this affinity until it was pointed out by Mertz, Ayoob and Gordon demonstrates their incompetence to adequately classify and evaluate ancient material. It does not, however, reflect on the Mound Survey's data-collecting abilities per se.

My reply to the new Mainfort and Kwas article, enumerating these and other considerations, was summarily rejected by American Antiquity as being "far outside the expertise and interests of the readership." It has nevertheless been accepted for publication in Pre-Columbiana, and a PDF of the draft is online at http://www.econ.ohio-state.edu/jhm/arch/AmerAntiq.pdf.


Or is it Welsh Coelbren?
In 2002, researchers Alan Wilson, Baram A. Blackett, and Jim Michael announced that the Bat Creek stone is in fact inscribed with the the ancient Welsh Coelbren alphabet, and reads, in Welsh, "Madoc the ruler he is." These authors identify the Bat Creek tumulus as "the likely tomb of Prince Madoc" (Wilson et al. 2002).
Madoc was a Welsh prince who is reputed to have sailed to America in 1170 A.D. (see, e.g. Kimberley (2000)). However, Wilson et al. maintain that he was in fact a brother of King Arthur II, and sailed in 562 A.D. This would reconcile their reading of the inscription with the C-14 date of 32 A.D. - 769 A.D.

Wilson et al. give no reference for what they regard as an authoritative source for the Coelbren alphabet, and give no indication as to how they read the letters on the Bat Creek stone in this alphabet, or what Welsh words they find there. A Coelbren alphabet is provided online by Serenwen (undated). However, I see no obvious relation of the Serenwen alphabet to the Bat Creek letters.

A further complication is that it is widely believed, even among Celtic enthusiasts, (e.g. Jones 2004) that Coelbren itself is the modern invention of Edward Williams (1747-1826), known also as Iolo Morgannwg.

Although Gordon's Paleo-Hebrew reading of the Bat Creek inscription works much better than Thomas's original Cherokee interpretation, the fit as Hebrew is by no means perfect (McCarter 1993). If it could be shown to work even better as Coelbren, or any other alphabet, the Hebrew reading would have to be abandoned. Furthermore, if the Bat Creek stone, which was professionally excavated and whose context been carbon-dated to ancient times, were clearly engraved in Coelbren letters, that would itself be sufficient to vindicate the authenticity of Coelbren and to exonerate Morgannwg. However, until Wilson et al. publish the details of their claim, there is no basis for either of these conclusions.
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