French plane lost over Atlantic

[jesuitsdidit]

Originally Posted by jesuitsdidit

sorry not posting much news today
my link to presstv keeps breaking..
if anyone can save their latest news page
then email 2 me i'd be grateful

just go to main page
(not classic version)
click on 'latest news'

save page as text (txt) file
will record all 100 entries

pm me n i'll give u my email

presstv back on again tks..

[coco]

http://www.csmonitor.com/2009/0612/p02s07-usgn.html

Did Air France Flight 447 break up midair?

Figuring out what caused the crash could shed light on the safety of composites – new materials replacing traditional metals in many aircraft.




New York - Air France Flight 447 may have broken apart in the air, new reports indicate.

A Brazilian newspaper cites unnamed investigators who say an examination of some of the retrieved bodies, which were found as far as 85 miles apart, indicates that the plane may have broken apart before it fell into the Atlantic Ocean on June 1.

The Monitor has not been able to confirm those reports. Still, that possibility adds to the urgency of finding the plane's black boxes. As each hour passes, the signals they send out lose a little strength. By the end of the month, they could fade altogether, turning a difficult search of a mountainous undersea landscape into an all-but-impossible one.

The flight data recorders and any recovered wreckage probably holds the key to the puzzle of what caused the Airbus A330-200 to suddenly drop out of the sky on a routine flight from Rio de Janeiro to Paris.

Finding out what happened is critical to safety experts and engineers, who use what they learn from each accident to prevent others, as well as to increase the safety, reliability, and flexibility of modern aircraft.

The aviation industry is currently in the midst of an historic shift in aircraft construction, from generations of using titanium and aluminum to using lighter high-tech composites – complex materials made of intricately woven fibers baked with resins. These materials are believed to be as stronger if not stronger than traditional metals.

While the A330-200 has a traditional metal fuselage, it uses more composites in components such as the wing and tail structures than older planes do. Boeing is building the first major commercial plane, the Boeing 787, with a fuselage made completely of composite materials.

"There is a very compelling need to find the wreckage," says Richard Healing, a former member of the National Transportation Safety Board and an aviation safety consultant. "We need to know, if some of the composite parts failed [on Flight 447, whether they failed at a point that any other material would have failed."

Determining what happened

The Associated Press reported Friday that three more bodies have been found, bringing the total to 44 of the 228 people aboard.

Investigators say determining their cause of death, as well as where each passenger was sitting on the plane, could help determine whether Flight 447 broke up in the air, or whether strong ocean currents are responsible for the widespread recovery zone.

A French nuclear submarine is scouring the Atlantic where debris has been found, listening for "pinger signals" from the black boxes. Special probes called "pinger locators" from the US Navy are expected to be part of the search in several days.

Some of the biggest pieces of debris found so far appear to be the plane's tail fin and vertical stabilizer. These parts are made partially of composite materials, and their failure has contributed to several crashes in the past. In the 2001 crash of American Airlines Flight 587, an Airbus 300 with a similar design to the A330, the vertical stabilizer snapped off in severe turbulence. One of the first questions investigators addressed was whether the composite materials used in the component contributed to the crash, according to Mr. Healing.

"The tail that broke off was a composite structure and was attached to the aircraft in six places. The bolts [some made of composite materials] holding it into place failed," he says.

Healing was on hand in Germany when investigators tested the strength of one of those composite bolts, and he said it appeared to behave as it was designed to, which is called its "rated value."

"That means that the bolt was designed to be strong enough to withstand the forces it might see once in the lifetime of the aircraft," says Healing. "That particular part failed at 192 percent of its rated value."

That means it withstood twice as much pressure as it was designed to before it failed, and so such bolts are still being used in newer aircraft, like the A330, according to Healing.

Composites less tested than metals

But some aviation analysts are less confident in the reliability of composite materials, in part because safety experts have not yet designed as many tests to determine whether this material has been compromised as they have for traditional metals like aluminum and titanium. Over the past 70 years, safety experts have designed a series of nondestructive methods of testing metals, using X-rays, dyes, and other techniques to find imperfections in the metal or cracks that could lead to a crash.

"We have a far less robust understanding of how composites may deteriorate," says Robert Mann, president of R.W. Mann & Co., an aviation consulting company in Port Washington, N.Y.

"The extent of our ability to find faults in composites is something called a tap test, believe it or not. We tap the part and if it rings true, then you say, 'Oh, it must be a good part.' But if you hear a kind of a thud, you say, 'Oh, maybe it has delaminated internally, maybe it's got a void or other problems internally."

Mr. Mann says when he saw the picture of the retrieved tail of Air France Flight 447, one of the first things he wanted to know was whether there was a parallel with AA Flight 586 and whether failure of the composite structures in any way contributed to the breakup of the plane.

[decim]

Air France crash: autopsies suggest plane broke up in air
Multiple fractures on the bodies of victims of the Air France disaster suggest the plane broke up in the air, post mortem results have revealed.
By Henry Samuel in Paris
Published: 7:48PM BST 17 Jun 2009


Members of the Brazilian Air Force carry the body of a victim of Air France flight 447 Photo: REUTERS

In the latest sign that Flight 447 was no longer intact when it plunged into the Atlantic, medical examiners said the bodies had multiple fractures of legs, hips and arms.

Such injuries could mean the plane broke apart in air, forensic experts said. Bodies and debris would be severely fragmented if the jet crashed intact.

The theory that the plane broke up in the air is also supported by the location of victims' bodies found more than 50 miles apart.

However, experts have all but ruled out a mid-explosion as the bodies reportedly show no signs of burns.

Air crash investigators yesterday said there were "getting closer" to understanding what brought down the Airbus A330 en route from Rio de Janeiro to Paris with 228 people on board.

But they urged relatives to have "a lot of patience".

Speaking in Paris, they announced that a 50th body has been found in the choppy ocean waters, where bad weather is hampering the search.

They said that 400 pieces of wreckage from "all zones" of Flight 447 had been recovered, and the picture of what went wrong was slowly becoming clearer.

"Considering all the work that has been done and all we have at our disposal, I think we may be getting a bit closer to our goal," said Paul-Louis Arslanian, head of France's air accident investigation bureau, the BEA.

However, he urged the public to show "a lot of patience" while the search continued in "unfavourable conditions".

Herve Morin, France's defence minister, promised on Tuesday that the hunt for more wreckage and bodies would continue while there was hope of finding the plane's black boxes.

Homing signals from the flight data and cockpit voice recorders are being sought by the Brazilian military, a French nuclear submarine and Dutch ships towing two hi-tech US Navy listening devices.

Their beacons will fade within two weeks.

Nelson Jobim, Brazil's defence minister, said the French would continue searching and helping to identify the bodies, but the entire identification process would take place in Brazil "to avoid double autopsies, which would be a horrible thing for the families".

The BEA yesterday said it regretted its medical experts had not being authorised to take part in post mortems with their Brazilian counterparts.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/worl...up-in-air.html

[decided]

http://www.counterpunch.org/ridgeway06152009.html

In the two weeks since the Air France 447 crash, I’ve written several times about the possibility that composite parts may have played a role in the disaster. This prospect has dire implications for the future, since these lightweight, fiber and resin materials are increasingly replacing aluminum in aircraft construction. AF 447 was an Airbus A330-200, a plane a body fuselage built of metal, but significant levels of composite in its other parts–most importantly, the wings and the tail.

Now, wreckage recoved from the crash shows that 447 may have broken up in midair–which raises new questions and offering new clues on this subject of composites, according to a piece today in the Christian Science Monitor.

“There is a very compelling need to find the wreckage,” says Richard Healing, a former member of the National Transportation Safety Board and an aviation safety consultant. “We need to know, if some of the composite parts failed [on Flight 447, whether they failed at a point that any other material would have failed."

Some of the biggest pieces of debris found so far appear to be the plane's tail fin and vertical stabilizer. These parts are made partially of composite materials, and their failure has contributed to several crashes in the past. In the 2001 crash of American Airlines Flight 587, an Airbus 300 with a similar design to the A330, the vertical stabilizer snapped off in severe turbulence. One of the first questions investigators addressed was whether the composite materials used in the component contributed to the crash, according to Mr. Healing.

"The tail that broke off was a composite structure and was attached to the aircraft in six places. The bolts [some made of composite materials] holding it into place failed,” he says.

In fact, I’ve quoted other sources who say the turbulence encountered by American Airlines 587 before it crashed was mild compared with what Air France 447 might have met over the equatorial Atlantic. And while the bolts in question had passed safety tests, as have various composite parts, numerous questions have been raised about the methods used in testing new composite parts during the design process, as well as during routine ground testing prior to flights.

Boeing has hung a good part of its future on its new 787 Dreamliner, a midsized passenger jet built from over 50 percent composite materials, by weight. The Dreamliner is about to begin flight testing, and is supposed to be released next year. The lightweight construction of the 787 and other high-composite aircraft promises big savings to airlines in fuel costs. But with even a possibility that composites contributed to the 587 and 447 disasters, more testing and strict federal oversight, at the least, are needed before this new generation of aircraft begins flying.

Is this due diligence likely to happen? Remember that the fortunes of America’s largest aerospace manufacturer are in the mix, and that Boeing has given the 787 a huge buildup: The Dreamliner was supposed to be the highlight of the Paris Air Show, which opens up next week under the twin clouds of global recession and the 447 crash, but Boeing now says its first flight will be delayed. In fact, the plane is well behind schedule, placing Boeing is in competition with Airbus, which is working on its own high-composite jet.

It will be up to the Federal Aviation Administration to ensure that public safety comes before private profits–not something the FAA has been known for. The last FAA administrator, Marion Blakely, was a fervent freemarketeer who opposed increasing government regulation. She went on to become chief lobbyist for the aerospace industry group. Obama’s appointee, Randy Babbitt, is the former head of the airline pilot’s union, and ought to have some interest in ensuring that planes don’t fall apart in midair.

[thelyran]

Originally Posted by decided

http://www.counterpunch.org/ridgeway06152009.html

In the two weeks since the Air France 447 crash, I’ve written several times about the possibility that composite parts may have played a role in the disaster. This prospect has dire implications for the future, since these lightweight, fiber and resin materials are increasingly replacing aluminum in aircraft construction. AF 447 was an Airbus A330-200, a plane a body fuselage built of metal, but significant levels of composite in its other parts–most importantly, the wings and the tail.

Now, wreckage recoved from the crash shows that 447 may have broken up in midair–which raises new questions and offering new clues on this subject of composites, according to a piece today in the Christian Science Monitor.

“There is a very compelling need to find the wreckage,” says Richard Healing, a former member of the National Transportation Safety Board and an aviation safety consultant. “We need to know, if some of the composite parts failed [on Flight 447, whether they failed at a point that any other material would have failed."

Some of the biggest pieces of debris found so far appear to be the plane's tail fin and vertical stabilizer. These parts are made partially of composite materials, and their failure has contributed to several crashes in the past. In the 2001 crash of American Airlines Flight 587, an Airbus 300 with a similar design to the A330, the vertical stabilizer snapped off in severe turbulence. One of the first questions investigators addressed was whether the composite materials used in the component contributed to the crash, according to Mr. Healing.

"The tail that broke off was a composite structure and was attached to the aircraft in six places. The bolts [some made of composite materials] holding it into place failed,” he says.

In fact, I’ve quoted other sources who say the turbulence encountered by American Airlines 587 before it crashed was mild compared with what Air France 447 might have met over the equatorial Atlantic. And while the bolts in question had passed safety tests, as have various composite parts, numerous questions have been raised about the methods used in testing new composite parts during the design process, as well as during routine ground testing prior to flights.

Boeing has hung a good part of its future on its new 787 Dreamliner, a midsized passenger jet built from over 50 percent composite materials, by weight. The Dreamliner is about to begin flight testing, and is supposed to be released next year. The lightweight construction of the 787 and other high-composite aircraft promises big savings to airlines in fuel costs. But with even a possibility that composites contributed to the 587 and 447 disasters, more testing and strict federal oversight, at the least, are needed before this new generation of aircraft begins flying.

Is this due diligence likely to happen? Remember that the fortunes of America’s largest aerospace manufacturer are in the mix, and that Boeing has given the 787 a huge buildup: The Dreamliner was supposed to be the highlight of the Paris Air Show, which opens up next week under the twin clouds of global recession and the 447 crash, but Boeing now says its first flight will be delayed. In fact, the plane is well behind schedule, placing Boeing is in competition with Airbus, which is working on its own high-composite jet.

It will be up to the Federal Aviation Administration to ensure that public safety comes before private profits–not something the FAA has been known for. The last FAA administrator, Marion Blakely, was a fervent freemarketeer who opposed increasing government regulation. She went on to become chief lobbyist for the aerospace industry group. Obama’s appointee, Randy Babbitt, is the former head of the airline pilot’s union, and ought to have some interest in ensuring that planes don’t fall apart in midair.

...also composite material attracts lightning and generates heat at a much
higher rate than aluminium.Although,I'm not saying this as a contributing factor.I also mentioned much earlier in the thread,most likely scenario is
malfunction of the tail-plane/rudder section.I never mentioned the composite pins.I believed,at the time,with little evidence,rudder
failure and torsional stresses causing the fuselage to break up in mid-flight.
...and it looks like this to be the case.Without the conspiracy factor,this thread will fail,but some of the vulgar expressions in some of the post here
will never be apologised for.I wrote with the expression of remorse for the
families,many considered not...just have a look at the views on this thread...
it is'nt all Icke members.A factor most considered not,family and friends were searching for answers...by most of the paranoid tones given here,most never considered the affect their post had on others...
...Excellent information decided...to the others,and you know who you are,
should be ashamed of yourselves,for venturing your ignorant,uneducated biased views.

Another [point decided,is all the 3 main hydraulic lines collect and connect at the rudder,once quantity is lost,the only option to fly and steer the plane is varying throttle and thrust controls on each wing,usually making for fast and dangerous landings,with no flaps or pitch control...but loss of rudder and hydraulics,the passengers and plane had no real hope,a terrible tragedy,and
noticing lately,that intensity of storms increasing,this may become more common,in future.Sorry for the negative tone...but some of us care for the
mentality of the victims families,than rather be a trailblazer for some new conspiracy.

[tesla]

http://imgur.com/VMI4j.jpg

This is just embarrassing . .

[simplify]

How many weeks since the plane went down (I've lost track with all the changing stories that they keep putting out) anyway, what are the chances that there would still be "real" bodies out there?.........No sharks in those waters? There is just too much that does not add up in this.

[deany]

Originally Posted by tesla

http://imgur.com/VMI4j.jpg

This is just embarrassing . .

agreed, very embarrassing and shameful

[deany]

I know this is an old thread and apologies if I shouldn't bring it back?

but just saw this on the BBC and recalled this thread....

Wreckage from Air France jet found in Atlantic



Wreckage from Air France jet found in Atlantic No-one survived the crash Wreckage from an Air France jet lost over the Atlantic nearly two years ago with 228 people on board has been found, French investigators say.

With the cause of the crash still unknown, a fourth attempt to locate the plane's voice and data recorders got under way last month.

Searchers located wreckage during the past 24 hours, investigators in Paris said, without giving details.

Flight 447 from Rio de Janeiro to Paris came down in a storm on 1 June 2009.

A French judge recently filed preliminary manslaughter charges against Air France over the crash.

Airbus, the maker of the jet, says no one can know for sure how the crash occurred unless the so-called "black boxes" are found.

The search has been financed jointly by Air France and Airbus. It involves dives to depths of up to 4,000m (13,120ft) with the use of special robots to examine the ocean floor between Brazil and West Africa.

'No guarantee'

France's Bureau of Investigations and Analysis (BEAR) said that parts of the plane had been located by the searchers, led by Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution.

French Bureau of Investigations and Analysis "These parts have been identified by BEA investigators as belonging to the wreck of the A330-203, Flight AF 447," it added.

The bureau promised to release further information later.

An initial search found 50 bodies and hundreds of pieces of the plane, including its torn-off tail, while the last search ended in failure in May 2010.

The latest search was planned as a "systematic exploration" of an area of some 10,000 sq km (3,900 sq miles).

Officials have previously said there can be no guarantee that the flight recorders will ever be found.

Those who died included more than 30 nationalities. Most were French, Brazilian or German.

The crash has been partially blamed on malfunctioning speed sensors but officials believe other factors must also have contributed.

Crash timeline 1 June 2009



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-europe-12953432

[edelweiss]

Thanks for this information.

[tribe_of_david]

Originally Posted by wazaaap

ok if i went down in a plane - i would know about it - you dont just drop altitude and not notice - especially in a crash - so you would be braced, you hit the water at 300mph hopefully the pilot has managed to slow you down a bit.

the whole front and wings are ripped off - the plane splits in half and most of the people are dead - not all though - i hurry to get my life jacket on and open a door to get out - the plane is submerged - fire and electricity everywhere - the door would open and the escape shoot would deploy - it would rip off and float to the top cause of the weight of the plane pulling it down - you get out the plane and even after all that you manage to get to the top and inflate your life jacket.

the survivors get together and try to find something to get out the water on - it would be freezing at this time in the morning.

you get the picture - no matter what somewhere in this scenario there would be survivors and the minute the doors open the life raft (the slide) would either be detached or floating around deflated or inflated atop the water - with the GPS signal blaring!

seems unreal to me that everyone would die on impact without a trace - these planes are supposed to be designed to hit the water at 500MPH!

no matter how braced for impact you are for between a 300 - 500 mph crash, you cant brace your internal organs, on impact they would be pulverised !!!