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Old 31-05-2008, 08:27 PM   #1
nologo
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Default criticism of Eckhart Tolle

Re: 'Enlightenment': From Siphoning to Assimilation
http://brontebaxter.wordpress.com/20...-assimilation/

I was somewhat surprised to see a link to this article, which criticizes Eckhart Tolle, in today's headlines. I had always thought of Eckhart Tolle and David Icke as being somwhat compatible, in that our unobserved ego remains a product of the system and ripe for manipulation. Speaking personally, Eckhart Tolle helped me to wake-up and I see nothing wrong with transcending the conditioned self. I am reposting my response to it here and invite comments. Thank you.....

Free will cannot truly exist in a world which manipulates and deceives at every level. A person first becomes a product of this deception and the resulting ego acts accordingly. It’s only this conditioned aspect of ourselves which is illusory and needs to be let go of. One is not surrendering personal choice, therefore, but a facsimile of personal choice. Once this virus has been removed, we can begin to allow our true and unique identity (soul) to emerge. Our free will was necessarily suspended, to some extent, when we chose to incarnate as a “physical being” in the first place. It’s all part of the game.

The Borg analogy applies to this planet in its present state, not to people who detach from environmental conditioning, as Tolle and others advocate. The vast majority of people unwittingly serve and enforce the elite agenda through their identification with ego and the herd mentality. Once freed from the manipulation, of course, we begin to understand not only our own uniqueness, but our ultimate Oneness. In this sense, we become part of a “collective,” but that’s what will ultimately destroy this present system and prevent it from ever returning.

Nothing in physical reality can be permanent, nor should we wish it to be. Physical death is meaningless. The real mystery is why we chose to experience this dense reality in the first place. In his book, The Secret of the Soul, William Buhlman claims that most beings choose not to incarnate here at all, because it is considered “too extreme.” And having consciously experienced the astral for myself, I can certainly see why non-physical reality is preferable.

To take any of this very seriously is the mistake. There is no “fate of the universe” resting upon anything. Time itself is part of the illusion. We have entered an interactive DVD, if you like, by our own free will, and for our own very personal reasons. You can play the game of “us and them,” if you like, but ultimately even the manipulators are part of the game and contribute to the library of infinite possibility and infinite experience. There are countless worlds that we’d consider “paradise,” and we’ve probably lived countless lifetimes upon them. It’s only from our very limited perspective in space and time that any of this seems “serious.” It’s a bit like uploading one’s consciousness into a character within a computer game. If you want to wake-up within the game, first disassociate from the character, then disassociate from the game. When you truly see through the illusion, all that’s left to do is sit down and have a good laugh.
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Old 31-05-2008, 10:14 PM   #2
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the author of the original article (Bronte Baxter)
makes it seem like meditation turns people into brainless heartless zombies...
meditation has made me more intelligent, more loving and more alive than i have ever been.



i've read Bronte Baxter is a former teacher of Transcendental Meditation,
that "brand" of meditation is invented by a phony guru...
it's possible that sort of meditation turns people into brainless heartless zombies,
i've heard they charge hundreds of dollars to people who want to learn that kind of meditation anyway!



the kind of meditation taught by Eckhart Tolle sure doesn't turn people into brainless heartless zombies,
though i must admit i am not a big fan of Eckhart Tolle...

i prefer Nisargadatta... (see my signature)
cause i find his way of explaining much more pure.

i think the over-conceptualized style of teaching that Eckhart Tolle presents;
would have been way less helpful to me than Nisargadatta has been.

although maybe this is just a matter of personal preference.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

about your reply to him, nologo,
it seems you believe we are souls who chose to incarnate here... or something?

i don't share that belief, though i do not rule out the possibility.
but i suspect that kind of beliefs do not have their origin in meditation...
and don't even have anything to do with it.

meditation has enabled me to always be in a state of loving blissful happiness.
is that kind of "enlightenment" divine,
or simply the result of the changes that happen in the brain when one starts to practice meditation?

that i do not know.
but i know that meditation does happen to blend perfectly into my spiritual ideal of unconditional love and happiness,
and if meditation is truely "spiritual"... or just "chemical change in the brain"... or a mixture of both?

i have no problem leaving that question unanswered
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Old 31-05-2008, 10:16 PM   #3
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Re: 'Enlightenment': From Siphoning to Assimilation
http://brontebaxter.wordpress.com/20...-assimilation/
A round of applause to the Icke headlines.

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Old 31-05-2008, 11:25 PM   #4
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'just is'

is exactly what is says.....

just....is

so whatever you make of anything...eckhart tolle or dog poo on yer shoe

it all means whatever to you

...that's what 'just is'...means

meditate upon that!

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Old 31-05-2008, 11:55 PM   #5
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Quote:
Originally Posted by nologo View Post
Re: 'Enlightenment': From Siphoning to Assimilation
http://brontebaxter.wordpress.com/20...-assimilation/

I was somewhat surprised to see a link to this article, which criticizes Eckhart Tolle, in today's headlines. I had always thought of Eckhart Tolle and David Icke as being somwhat compatible, in that our unobserved ego remains a product of the system and ripe for manipulation. Speaking personally, Eckhart Tolle helped me to wake-up and I see nothing wrong with transcending the conditioned self. I am reposting my response to it here and invite comments. Thank you.....

Free will cannot truly exist in a world which manipulates and deceives at every level. A person first becomes a product of this deception and the resulting ego acts accordingly. It’s only this conditioned aspect of ourselves which is illusory and needs to be let go of. One is not surrendering personal choice, therefore, but a facsimile of personal choice. Once this virus has been removed, we can begin to allow our true and unique identity (soul) to emerge. Our free will was necessarily suspended, to some extent, when we chose to incarnate as a “physical being” in the first place. It’s all part of the game.

The Borg analogy applies to this planet in its present state, not to people who detach from environmental conditioning, as Tolle and others advocate. The vast majority of people unwittingly serve and enforce the elite agenda through their identification with ego and the herd mentality. Once freed from the manipulation, of course, we begin to understand not only our own uniqueness, but our ultimate Oneness. In this sense, we become part of a “collective,” but that’s what will ultimately destroy this present system and prevent it from ever returning.

Nothing in physical reality can be permanent, nor should we wish it to be. Physical death is meaningless. The real mystery is why we chose to experience this dense reality in the first place. In his book, The Secret of the Soul, William Buhlman claims that most beings choose not to incarnate here at all, because it is considered “too extreme.” And having consciously experienced the astral for myself, I can certainly see why non-physical reality is preferable.

To take any of this very seriously is the mistake. There is no “fate of the universe” resting upon anything. Time itself is part of the illusion. We have entered an interactive DVD, if you like, by our own free will, and for our own very personal reasons. You can play the game of “us and them,” if you like, but ultimately even the manipulators are part of the game and contribute to the library of infinite possibility and infinite experience. There are countless worlds that we’d consider “paradise,” and we’ve probably lived countless lifetimes upon them. It’s only from our very limited perspective in space and time that any of this seems “serious.” It’s a bit like uploading one’s consciousness into a character within a computer game. If you want to wake-up within the game, first disassociate from the character, then disassociate from the game. When you truly see through the illusion, all that’s left to do is sit down and have a good laugh.
I don't have time to reply right now, but I was going to post exactly the same thing. The thing is though, that we have to ask WHO is posting those headlines. Is it Icke? If so, he is completely contradicting what he has written in his books. And if it's someone else posting the headlines, then that would explain the complete step backwards.
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Old 31-05-2008, 11:57 PM   #6
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I knew Adra was going to cheer had I made this thread. I knew it! Me me me! ^_^
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Old 01-06-2008, 09:52 AM   #7
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we have to ask WHO is posting those headlines. Is it Icke? If so, he is completely contradicting what he has written in his books. And if it's someone else posting the headlines, then that would explain the complete step backwards.
Exactly. Whoever posted that headline has obviously never read any of Eckhart's books or listened to any of his talks. "Surrender" doesn't mean allowing other people (or the system) to walk all over you. Neither does it point to the abandonment of one's individuality. It simply means accepting what you cannot personally change. It is actually reactive people who the system can most easily manipulate.

Btw: The two books you list are two of my favourites!

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Old 01-06-2008, 11:48 AM   #8
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Yet there is another, more insidious reason why the ancient religions, which taught fear of God, have morphed into modern religions and spiritual practices that teach surrender or love of God. The reason concerns free will. If that deeply human element can be won over, if the heart and ability to choose can be wholly offered to “the divine,” those on the receiving end no longer have to siphon humans for their energy, they can simply assimilate us. We become one with their system, with their collective consciousness. Our personal energy signature – the soul or ego, individual self– that which makes us creative, original, reasoned, deliberate beings of action – that is taken from us. Or more precisely, we give it away.


We give ourselves to “the divine,” and in so doing, align our personal frequency with those who have fed on humans since the dawn of history. We become entrained with them, like a tuning fork that hums the pitch of the humming forks around it or a soldier that marches in step with his army. As in the military, the surrender of personal choice results in a strengthening of the collective. Soldiers fall out of step when they cross a bridge, because the power of marching in unison is great enough that it could break the structure. Assimilation strengthens the collective that is the gods.

---

He believes in this article that if you "practice" Tolle's teachings, you will be taken over by the entities in the astral?

Hmm... lol
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Old 01-06-2008, 12:13 PM   #9
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[QUOTE=nologo;373105]Re: 'Enlightenment': From Siphoning to Assimilation
http://brontebaxter.wordpress.com/20...-assimilation/

Thanks for introducing me to Bronte Baxter's article. Bronte's thoughts resonate with me completely. I intend to read more of his/her articles. Is Bronte a man or woman?
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Old 01-06-2008, 12:24 PM   #10
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I love this bit from Bront'es article:

"It cannot be God, in the sense of a supreme consciousness, that requires sacrifice, worship, surrender of ego and ultimate physical death. That can only be the agenda of limited spiritual beings, who see the manifest universe as their playground. They are the playground bullies. They’ve convinced everyone that they by rights run the show and that they even created it."
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Old 01-06-2008, 12:43 PM   #11
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and this:

"We can have our smug little laugh, or we can take back our freedom. We can pride ourselves on being above the game, or we can get in there and start slugging. Which side of the war do you want to be on? To remain neutral is to do nothing. To do nothing is to allow the takeover of human consciousness.

Bronte"

Bronte, you're my hero or heroine as the case may be.
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Old 01-06-2008, 01:01 PM   #12
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This is very pertinent to this thread, when a few posters have questioned whether or not David Icke himself, or someone else, posted the link of Bronte Baxter's article:

"David recently wrote to me, “We see the world so very much alike,” and he’s published four of my articles on his site and written about me in his newsletter. I don’t see us as being opposed in our ideas whatsoever. I DO see people interpreting what David Icke writes in just the way you have, and that’s one of the reasons I started this blog: to dig at and develop some of the spiritual issues that surround the truth-seeking movement and that need, perhaps, to get better focused. "

Yes, David did post the link and David has said he thinks along the same lines as Bronte. Me too. I think some people have misunderstood some of what David has said.
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Old 01-06-2008, 01:15 PM   #13
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Here's what I posted on Bronte's site:

Dear Bronte, what a wonderful article. It resonates perfectly which what I’ve been feeling for a long time now. You put into words what I could only feel and not express very eloquently. One poster on here (sorry can’t remember the name) spoke about compassion being a useless emotion, well, words to that effect. The point of compassion, the way I see it, is to spur us on to do something about it. People going hungry was an example given. Compassion shouldn’t just make us say ‘oh, we really feel for you’, compassion should drive us to challenge the arms trade for instance, because without the mega powerful mega rich arms industry, there would be a lot less hunger in the world. Empathy and kindness is not enough, neither is just feeling compassion. Action is needed and if enough people protested against the corrupt arms trade, then this would go a long way to helping the starving in the world. When people believe that all that is is meant to be and that we need do nothing, THAT is the problem, THAT plays right into the hands of the arms traders. It isn’t enough to say that we are no part of the arms trade and we have found ‘oneness’ and do not feel negativity, while doing nothing to challenge the corruption that is the arms trade. Action is needed. I mention the arms trade as just an example. There are thousands of other examples. People don’t like the word ‘fight against’ or ‘war’. I’m not advocating violence or taking up arms against - I’m talking about peaceful strong protest in numbers so vast that the corrupt arms traders could not carry on with their poverty making practices, IF ENOUGH OF US JOINED TOGETHER AND PROTESTED. If we all become ‘enlightened’ and passive, then the corrupt arms traders will be laughing all the way to the bank and beyond.

So let’s start DOING as well as BEING
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Old 01-06-2008, 01:17 PM   #14
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Dear nologo, thank you very much for your post, which puts, much more eloquently than I can manage, many of my thoughts. I welcome the Bronte Baxter article because I want to be constantly challenged by different points of view. I have enjoyed Tolle's work, and found it useful. But I do have a problem with the passive notion from some in New Age movement that "everything is just as it is supposed to be" so we should just accept it and live in a fluffy cloud. Fluffy bunnies a friend of mine calls them. Harmless but also useless.

Understanding the true nature of Oneness does not have to equate with apathy. It is earth bound separateness that has more in common with Borg mentality than sense of being part of the whole. This is what David was saying last weekend: Oneness does not mean sameness, it means being open to infinite possibility.

Thank you nologo for starting this thread, and thank you to Bronte also, for giving us a different perspective the opportunity to discuss!

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Old 01-06-2008, 02:56 PM   #15
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Quote:
Originally Posted by frankanne View Post
I love this bit from Bront'es article:

"It cannot be God, in the sense of a supreme consciousness, that requires sacrifice, worship, surrender of ego and ultimate physical death. That can only be the agenda of limited spiritual beings, who see the manifest universe as their playground. They are the playground bullies. They’ve convinced everyone that they by rights run the show and that they even created it."
The ego is largely a product of one's environment, which in our case is a manipulated illusion we call the Matrix. Anyone who buys into the identity given to them by the matrix becomes a slave of the system. The egoic self is all about limitation and false choices. One's true sense of self and true individuality is beyond ego. There is no one demanding that we surrender it, however... only people who have woken up to the nonsense that it is. But, of course, many are so hopelessly dependent on the system that they are terrified at the prospect of letting go... of being unplugged. And so they resist and fight to protect the very thing that is enslaving them.

As regards physical death, this is the inevitable consequence of using a physical body. Those who are awake would no more want to remain in a physical body forever than they would a prison cell.
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Old 01-06-2008, 03:08 PM   #16
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Originally Posted by frankanne View Post
and this:

"We can have our smug little laugh, or we can take back our freedom. We can pride ourselves on being above the game, or we can get in there and start slugging. Which side of the war do you want to be on? To remain neutral is to do nothing. To do nothing is to allow the takeover of human consciousness.
Our freedom is only lost to the extent that we identify with the egoic construct. And for many, that's precisely why they came here... to experience the drama of it all.

If "slugging" means empowering others with information, and ceasing to cooperate with the NWO, then of course, let's slug away. In the absence of a broader context, however, people are slugging from a position of ego, fear and limitation. They are therefore still in (and of) the Matrix. The egoic self (product) is all that stands between "us" (true individuality) and infinite possibility.
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Old 01-06-2008, 03:22 PM   #17
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Yes, David did post the link and David has said he thinks along the same lines as Bronte. Me too. I think some people have misunderstood some of what David has said.
I think some people have misunderstood some of what Eckhart Tolle has said. David and Eckhart are actually the two people who have had the biggest influence on my life, and I feel that they should be working together. Eckhart, on the one hand, showing people that they are SO MUCH MORE than the little ego product that they've inherited from the system; and David, giving these newly liberated individuals the bigger picture, and opening their minds to infinite possibility.
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Old 01-06-2008, 03:36 PM   #18
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If we all become ‘enlightened’ and passive, then the corrupt arms traders will be laughing all the way to the bank and beyond.

So let’s start DOING as well as BEING
Enlightenment, if you want to use that word, is far from passive. But unless you first become enlightened, your "doing" is coming from a place of ego and limitation. In other words, you are acting from a false sense of self and a false sense of reality. Enlightenment leads to "awakened doing," which is something else entirely and far more powerful than anything the ego could conceive of (David himself being a prime example of awakened doing).

If we did ALL become 'enlightened and passive', however, the arms dealers would rapidly go out of business and the NWO would collapse.
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Old 01-06-2008, 04:07 PM   #19
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I think some people have misunderstood some of what Eckhart Tolle has said. David and Eckhart are actually the two people who have had the biggest influence on my life, and I feel that they should be working together. Eckhart, on the one hand, showing people that they are SO MUCH MORE than the little ego product that they've inherited from the system; and David, giving these newly liberated individuals the bigger picture, and opening their minds to infinite possibility.
Yes, very well said. Both figures have influenced my life too and I've always thought they compliment each other nicely. I came across Icke first and he sort of opened the door, confirming to me how false the outer world was and giving me a glimpse of how to change on a personal level. A few months later Eckhart sort of finished the job off and revealed to me clearly what I'm not and how outer change can only happen through inner change. That's the moment when you realise it's pointless going round and round in circles chasing conspiracies and gathering more information on the NWO. Real change can only happen when you focus on yourself, being patient, allowing your true nature to reveal itself in it's own time. This can't be forced even if it looks like you are doing nothing significant. As in the case of Eckhart, you may have to go 10 - 15 years of doing nothing in society for something truly powerful to come through.


Quote:
Originally Posted by nologo View Post
Enlightenment, if you want to use that word, is far from passive. But unless you first become enlightened, your "doing" is coming from a place of ego and limitation. In other words, you are acting from a false sense of self and a false sense of reality. Enlightenment leads to "awakened doing," which is something else entirely and far more powerful than anything the ego could conceive of (David himself being a prime example of awakened doing).

If we did ALL become 'enlightened and passive', however, the arms dealers would rapidly go out of business and the NWO would collapse.
Nice one again. Enlightenment has become a concept and is so misunderstood, that seems to be the problem mankind has. How do we get people to understand something which can't be understood on the same level they've learned to understand everything else? You can't really, so again it comes back to doing what you do on a personal level. If your action truly comes from that place it will be very powerful and ONLY then can it have the potential to profoundly effect other people. It's certainly not passive.

That's why I sometimes like to highlight famous people who have had some sort of access to that state. Like Icke, people like Bob Marley, John Lennon, Bruce Lee, Picasso, many of the "greats" have allowed their "doing" to be powered from that state. They are hardly examples of passivity.
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Old 01-06-2008, 04:14 PM   #20
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"going into the past won't help. Thirty years before, the anger arose and you got identified with it that day. Now, you cannot get unidentified from that past - it is no longer there! But you CAN get unidentified THIS moment - and then the whole series of angers of your past is no more a part of you."
-OSHO

"The past and its conditionings do exist - but they exist either in the body or the brain; they don't exist in your consciousness because the consciousness cannot be conditioned."
-OSHO

"If you go to an Eastern mystic, he will say, "You think that you ARE anger, you feel identified with the anger - that is where things are going wrong. Next time anger happens, you just be a watcher, you just be a witness. Don't get identified with the anger. Don't say I AM ANGER!"
-OSHO

"You are pure consciousness. When the cloud of anger comes around you, just watch it - and remain alert so that you don't get identified."
-OSHO

"Future is pure potentiality, unless it happens, you cannot be certain about it. Past is pure actuality, it has happened. Now nothing can be done about it. Between these two, man stands in the present always thinking of the impossibles."
-OSHO

I swear tolle read "awareness" by OSHO, paraphrased it, and called it the power of now
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