Did EUROPEANS Discover any of the new world ??.

pillowtalk · 04-05-2008, 01:51 PM

If 'EUROPEANS' did discover any of the new world ??.
Why were all the voyages of the famous 'European explorers' based on maps telling them precisely where they were going ??.

. The ~ Pizzigano, Fra mauro, Piri Reis, Cantion, Caverio, Waldsemuller, and Jan Rotz charts, between them, show the whole world charted well before Europeans even set sail.

. European explorers referred to maps made well before they set sail: see the diaries os Columbus, Dias, Cabral, Magellan and Cook ‘re’ the evidence for this !!.

. Countries shown on maps before Europeans set sail.

(a) North-America; shown on Waldseemuller, Cantino and Caverio charts.

(b) Caribbean: Pizzigano, Cantion, Caverio and Walseemuller charts.

(c) South America: Piri Reis.

(d) Africa, India and the East (longitude of East Africa precisely correct before Europeans could measure longitude).

(e) Antarctic: Piri Reis.

(f) Arctic and Siberia: Waldseemuller.

(g) Australia: Jean Rotz, Desliens, vallard, Desceliers.

(h) China and far East; Jean Rotz.

So who was charting longitude (and how) well before the first Europeans had an accurate chronometer ??.

Firstly let’s look at the Piri Reis map (1513, based on earlier charts).
The Piri Reis map shows the western coast of Africa, the eastern coast of South America, and the northern coast of Antarctica. The northern coastline of Antarctica is perfectly detailed. The most puzzling however is not so much how Piri Reis managed to draw such an accurate map of the Antarctic region 300 years before it was discovered, but that the map shows the coastline under the ice. Geological evidence confirms that the latest date Queen Maud Land could have been charted in an ice-free state is 4000 BC.

One of the arguments ( Graham Hancock).

Piri Reis Map explained by Graham Hancock - YouTube

PT.

guuna · 05-05-2008, 09:40 PM

Interesting

Some seem to think that the Piri Reis map does not show antarctica at all just a warped persective section of the south american coastline.

Interesting to note that it also appears on the Official Turkish currency, so they obviously put some faith in it's veracity.

pillowtalk · 06-05-2008, 09:26 AM

This is the debate i was looking for !!, spot on for getting there in record time (fist post no less).
We can get onto the rest of the debate in good time, but for now, let’s get to it regarding Antarctica !!.
I wanted to post some modern admiralty charts ‘VS’ the Piri Reis chart, but alas, i have to few posts !!.
I will come back and edit the thread with pic’s to out line the questions at hand.
So, the argument.................

What is known today as the map of the Turkish admiral Piri Reis is actually just a fragment of the original, much larger map, which represented the whole known world. This surviving portion represents Atlantic Ocean, western coasts of Europe and Africa, and eastern coasts of America. It is dated "Muslim Year 919", which corresponds to our A.D. 1513 (but the map was presented to the Sultan in 1517).
According to its author, the map was compiled from "twenty older charts and eight planispheres".
It is very likely that Reis also examined the journey accounts written by early explorers of New World, expecially Portuguese, as they are often mentioned within notes on the map.

But what mystery lovers are most enthusiastic about is the bottom edge of the map, which is said to represent Antarctica. Some claim that Land of Queen Maud and other features of Antarctica are clearly recognizable on the map, even though that continent was not explored but many centuries later. Unfortunatley these people, including Hancock, claim the above hypothesis without making any cartographic comparison or first-hand check: they just accept Charles Hapgood's statements as true. Hancock in particular does not mention any book about history of cartography within the notes of the first two chapters of his book "Fingerprints of the Gods" (the very chapters about geographic charts). He just quotes Hapgood's work, thus clearly showing that he didn't even make an attempt to learn on the subject.

But what mystery lovers are most enthusiastic about is the bottom edge of the map, which is said to represent Antarctica. Some claim that Land of Queen Maud and other features of Antarctica are clearly recognizable on the map, even though that continent was not explored but many centuries later. Unfortunatley these people, including Hancock, claim the above hypothesis without making any cartographic comparison or first-hand check: they just accept Charles Hapgood's statements as true. Hancock in particular does not mention any book about history of cartography within the notes of the first two chapters of his book "Fingerprints of the Gods" (the very chapters about geographic charts). He just quotes Hapgood's work, thus clearly showing that he didn't even make an attempt to learn on the subject.

Moreover, if the map of Piri Reis is so accurate and if the land depicted at the bottom edge of it is really Anctartica, one may ask why none of those authors explains what has become of the missing 1200 miles of coast from Brazil to Tierra del Fuego (the whole length of Argentina), and why this odd Antarctica protrudes from Brazil instead of laying 2500 miles south of it.
One just needs to examine that part of the map carefully to realize, even without being an expert cartographer, that it represents nothing more than the extremity of the south-american continent, an approximate representation made possibile by means available at that time. The drawing is deformed, slanted to the right, possibly to conform to the peculiar shape of the piece of parchment. It is also worth mentioning that cartographic maps were used as political tools as well. Placing some land on either side of the meridian dubbed "la Raya" ? which was agreed upon as a demarcation between Spanish and Portuguese zones of influence ? could serve as an excuse for the corresponding power to claim rights of possession. Piri Reis often mentions Portuguese maps in his notes, and of course Portuguese would have preferred the coast south of Brazil to bend sharply to the right towards Africa. That would have placed the coast within the 180 degrees assigned to their jurisdiction by Treaty of Tordesillas in 1494.

PT

xxxx · 08-05-2008, 05:09 PM

hapgood was cia y'know.
it all just screams conspiracy.

pillowtalk · 08-05-2008, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xxxx

hapgood was cia y'know.
it all just screams conspiracy.

WTF !!

hagbard_celine · 08-05-2008, 05:53 PM

I saw David Hatcher Childress live last weekend and I'm convinced that there was contact between the various regions of the world before history began.

xxxx · 08-05-2008, 06:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by pillowtalk

WTF !!

Charles Hapgood - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Charles Hapgood - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

says right there.

pillowtalk · 08-05-2008, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xxxx

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Hapgood

says right there.

I could write an article on ‘XXXX’ - and the whole thing could be a lengthy diatribe on how you will believe anything you read on wiki !!, submit it and when you put ‘XXXX’ into Google, BOOM, up comes the wiki page on ‘XXXX’ !!.

PT.

xxxx · 09-05-2008, 01:24 PM

oh right. you know different. eh?

pillowtalk · 09-05-2008, 06:07 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by xxxx

oh right. you know different. eh?

I am just telling you that Wiki is open to anyone to submit a page, nothing more.

Clearly this is news to you !!.

If we could stick to sources that are a little more reliable, it will save time.

PT.

06-05-2008, 09:26 AM	#3
pillowtalk Banned Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Foot hills in the Algarve ~ north of Armação de Pêra Posts: 262	This post needed pic's !! This is the debate i was looking for !!, spot on for getting there in record time (fist post no less). We can get onto the rest of the debate in good time, but for now, let’s get to it regarding Antarctica !!. I wanted to post some modern admiralty charts ‘VS’ the Piri Reis chart, but alas, i have to few posts !!. I will come back and edit the thread with pic’s to out line the questions at hand. So, the argument................. What is known today as the map of the Turkish admiral Piri Reis is actually just a fragment of the original, much larger map, which represented the whole known world. This surviving portion represents Atlantic Ocean, western coasts of Europe and Africa, and eastern coasts of America. It is dated "Muslim Year 919", which corresponds to our A.D. 1513 (but the map was presented to the Sultan in 1517). According to its author, the map was compiled from "twenty older charts and eight planispheres". It is very likely that Reis also examined the journey accounts written by early explorers of New World, expecially Portuguese, as they are often mentioned within notes on the map. But what mystery lovers are most enthusiastic about is the bottom edge of the map, which is said to represent Antarctica. Some claim that Land of Queen Maud and other features of Antarctica are clearly recognizable on the map, even though that continent was not explored but many centuries later. Unfortunatley these people, including Hancock, claim the above hypothesis without making any cartographic comparison or first-hand check: they just accept Charles Hapgood's statements as true. Hancock in particular does not mention any book about history of cartography within the notes of the first two chapters of his book "Fingerprints of the Gods" (the very chapters about geographic charts). He just quotes Hapgood's work, thus clearly showing that he didn't even make an attempt to learn on the subject. But what mystery lovers are most enthusiastic about is the bottom edge of the map, which is said to represent Antarctica. Some claim that Land of Queen Maud and other features of Antarctica are clearly recognizable on the map, even though that continent was not explored but many centuries later. Unfortunatley these people, including Hancock, claim the above hypothesis without making any cartographic comparison or first-hand check: they just accept Charles Hapgood's statements as true. Hancock in particular does not mention any book about history of cartography within the notes of the first two chapters of his book "Fingerprints of the Gods" (the very chapters about geographic charts). He just quotes Hapgood's work, thus clearly showing that he didn't even make an attempt to learn on the subject. Moreover, if the map of Piri Reis is so accurate and if the land depicted at the bottom edge of it is really Anctartica, one may ask why none of those authors explains what has become of the missing 1200 miles of coast from Brazil to Tierra del Fuego (the whole length of Argentina), and why this odd Antarctica protrudes from Brazil instead of laying 2500 miles south of it. One just needs to examine that part of the map carefully to realize, even without being an expert cartographer, that it represents nothing more than the extremity of the south-american continent, an approximate representation made possibile by means available at that time. The drawing is deformed, slanted to the right, possibly to conform to the peculiar shape of the piece of parchment. It is also worth mentioning that cartographic maps were used as political tools as well. Placing some land on either side of the meridian dubbed "la Raya" ? which was agreed upon as a demarcation between Spanish and Portuguese zones of influence ? could serve as an excuse for the corresponding power to claim rights of possession. Piri Reis often mentions Portuguese maps in his notes, and of course Portuguese would have preferred the coast south of Brazil to bend sharply to the right towards Africa. That would have placed the coast within the 180 degrees assigned to their jurisdiction by Treaty of Tordesillas in 1494. PT

08-05-2008, 05:09 PM	#4
xxxx Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 691	hapgood was cia y'know. it all just screams conspiracy. Last edited by xxxx; 08-05-2008 at 05:10 PM. Reason: i thought of an amusing addition...

08-05-2008, 05:53 PM	#6
hagbard_celine Senior Member Join Date: Dec 2008 Location: Oxford Posts: 4,351	I saw David Hatcher Childress live last weekend and I'm convinced that there was contact between the various regions of the world before history began. __________________ "Lynda, you're sweet. From what I've seen of your world, do you think anybody votes for sweet?" Doctor Who- Bad Wolf. "Because he refused to compete in games for domination he was indomitable." from The Dispossessed by Ursula le Guin

05-05-2008, 09:40 PM	#2
guuna Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Kent. UK Posts: 5,779	Interesting Some seem to think that the Piri Reis map does not show antarctica at all just a warped persective section of the south american coastline. Interesting to note that it also appears on the Official Turkish currency, so they obviously put some faith in it's veracity.

09-05-2008, 01:24 PM	#9
xxxx Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 691	oh right. you know different. eh?