jesus=THE TEMPLE DESTROYED, 70 A.D.

[10thlight]

I found this interesting.

THE TEMPLE DESTROYED, 70 A.D.

The fulfillment of Christ's prophecy concerning the destruction of the magnificent temple at Jerusalem not only reveals the year of Christ's crucifixion, but also ended one phase of God's plan for the salvation of humanity and ushered in the next phase—Christ's return to conquer and rule the earth.

In 40 B.C., the Roman senate appointed Herod, later known as Herod The Great, as the ruler of Judea. Herod had previously served as the governor of Galilee and was a personal friend of Mark Antony before Antony was defeated by Octavian. Later Herod became a friend of Octavian who became the first Roman emperor as Caesar Augustus.

Herod the Great ruled Judea for the next 36 years, during which time he began many huge building projects including the building of a new Temple in Jerusalem for the worship of God. From the beginning of the Temple project in 19 B.C., it took 46 years to complete the main building and another 36 years to finish the entire Temple complex. This was a huge undertaking which required a tremendous amount of labor and money. This new temple was said to be a larger and a more beautiful temple than the one that Solomon built.

The historian Josephus said that much of the exterior of the Temple was covered with gold that reflected the fiery rays of the sun. Moreover, he said that, from a distance, the Temple appeared like a mountain covered with snow. This was probably because those parts that were not covered with gold were made of white stone.

From what is said in many writings about Herod's Temple, it was indeed a magnificent structure of awesome proportions. However, four years after it's completion, it was totally destroyed and wiped from the face of the earth.

During Jesus' time, many of the Jews were so awe struck and impressed with the grandeur of the Temple that they replaced the worship of God with respect and reverence for the Temple complex itself. However, Jesus was not impressed with the Temple's physical structure, because he knew that the Sovereign God was greater than any building that man could construct, no matter how grand and beautiful it was.

THE PROPHECIES

Jesus prophesied both the destruction of the temple and Jerusalem; therefore, it is necessary to discuss both prophecies in order to clearly understand the events that happened 40 years later.


The Temple

"Jesus left the temple and was walking away when his disciples came up to him to call his attention to its buildings. 'Do you see all these things?' he asked. 'I tell you the truth, not one stone here will be left on another; every one will be thrown down'" (Matt.24:1-8 NIV). See also Lk.21:5-6.

In his well known prophecy about the end of the age recorded by Matthew and Luke, Jesus predicted the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem which came to pass 40 years after his death and resurrection. Because the disciples as most of the Jews of their day (especially the Essenes and the Pharisees) were looking for a Messiah to come who would restore national Israel, set up an earthly kingdom, and destroy the existing Temple and build a new one in its place (See Ezekiel chapters 40 to 47), they were anxious to know when this would happen. They asked, "When will this happen, and what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?" (Matt.24:3 NIV).



Many today believe that the answer that Jesus gave to his disciples referred to the time that they were living in. Although in a general sense, some of what he said would apply to their age, Jesus did not answer the first part of their question: "when will this happen?" Instead he began to answer their other two questions "what will be the sign of your coming and of the end of the age?" with a general overview of the things that would happen at the end of this age just prior to his return:

"Watch out that no one deceives you. For many will come in my name, claiming, 'I am the Christ,' and will deceive many. You will hear of wars and rumors of wars, but see to it that you are not alarmed. Such things must happen, but the end is still to come. Nation will rise against nation, and kingdom against kingdom. There will be famines and earthquakes in various places. All these are the beginning of birth pains" (Matt.24:4-8 NIV).

After Jesus' resurrection from the dead the disciples asked a similar question to the one that they had asked him after their Temple visit, during which he told them about world events at the end of this age:

"When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, will you at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel? And he said to them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father has put in his own power" (Acts 1:6-7 KJV).

Looking back on the task that Jesus gave to the disciples after his resurrection (Matt.28;19-20) and the ensuing history of the early church, not allowing these men to know the date of the destruction of the Temple, his coming to power, and the end of the age of human rule on earth helped keep them focused on their task and from being discouraged, because these events were not to happen as soon as they expected.

Jerusalem

There were two occasions on which Jesus foretold the destruction of Jerusalem that would occur in 70 A.D.. The first was when he entered the city and the people laid their clothes on the ground before him, which was the custom to honor someone of great importance such as a king:

"Then the crowds spread out their robes along the road ahead of him, and as they reached the place where the road started down from the Mount of Olives, the whole procession began to shout and sing as they walked along, praising God for all the wonderful miracles Jesus had done. 'God has given us a King!' they exulted. 'Long live the King! Let all heaven rejoice! Glory to God in the highest heavens!' But some of the Pharisees among the crowd said, 'Sir, rebuke your followers for saying things like that!' He replied, 'If they keep quiet, the stones along the road will burst into cheers!' But as they came closer to Jerusalem and he saw the city ahead, he began to cry. 'Eternal peace was within your reach and you turned it down,' he wept, 'and now it is too late. Your enemies will pile up earth against your walls and encircle you and close in on you, and crush you to the ground, and your children within you; your enemies will not leave one stone upon another- for you have rejected the opportunity God offered you.' Then he entered the Temple and began to drive out the merchants from their stalls, saying to them, 'The Scriptures declare, My Temple is a place of prayer; but you have turned it into a den of thieves'" (Lk.19:36-46 TLB).

It is important to understand that Jesus was no ordinary man, he was the Creator God who voluntarily gave up his immortal existence to become human and die for the sins of humanity. Jesus understood that, although the plan for the salvation of humanity required certain events to take place, if people would repent of their evil ways, these events could be modified and worked out in other ways that would allow for less pain and suffering in order to fulfill God's plan for humanity.

Although Jesus understood that his heavenly Father was merciful, he also understood the heart of the vast majority of the Jews and their leadership and that they would not repent of their evil ways. This is one of the reasons he wept over Jerusalem as he foretold its destruction.

The second time that Jesus predicted the destruction of Jerusalem was as he was being led to the place of his execution. The streets along the way were packed with his enemies as well as with those who enthusiastically followed his teaching and were hopeful that he was indeed the prophesied Messiah:

"And there followed him a great company of people, and of women, which also bewailed and lamented him. But Jesus turning to them said, Daughters of Jerusalem, weep not for me, but weep for yourselves, and for your children. For, behold, the days are coming, in the which they shall say, Blessed are the barren, and the wombs that never bare, and the paps which never gave suck. Then shall they begin to say to the mountains, Fall on us; and to the hills, Cover us" (Lk.23:27-30 KJV).

What Jesus said to those who were showing their concern for him and the injustice that was about to befall him foretold the destruction of Jerusalem and the horrible starvation, sickness, and death that would come upon them before and after the Romans destroyed the city and its Temple. It is also possible that what he said to these women may also have some application during the end of this age just before his return. See Hos.10:1-10; Rev.6:12-17.

PASSOVER 30 A.D.

The Passover season of 30 A.D. began much as it had in previous years. Thousands of pilgrims from all over the world crowded into Jerusalem. Because they were concerned with preparing for the Passover, they did not realize that this particular Passover would be the most important event in all of human history. It was on this Passover that the Lamb of God would be sacrificed for the sins of humanity.

Jesus died about 3 p.m. on Friday afternoon of 30 A.D. on the first of two authorized Passover ceremonies (see our study about this specific Passover season). His death set into motion a series of events and warnings to the Jews which were meant to show that indeed the Jews had murdered the Messiah and that his prophecy concerning the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem would come to pass.

The Earthquake

There were three simultaneous events that happened during the earthquake at Jesus' death that are of major importance to the fulfillment of the prophecies concerning the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem:



The veil of separation torn from top to bottom
The tombs opened and the dead raised to life
Jesus acknowledged as the Son of God

The Curtain of Separation

History seems to indicate that there were two curtains in Herod's Temple: One at the huge gated entry into the Temple and the other separating the Holy of Holies and the main sanctuary. These curtains were said to be 60 feet long, 30 feet wide, and as thick as the palm of a man's hand. We are told that these curtains were so heavy that 300 priests were needed to manipulate each one. The curtain being torn from top to bottom was a foreboding omen indicating that God's hand had torn it in two and that his presence was leaving that holy place. (See the Jewish Talmud, Yoma 39b).

The curtain separated the Holy Place from everyone but the high priest. The Holy Place was where the presence of God dwelled on the mercy seat. The curtain was a constant reminder to the Israelites that their access to God depended on another physical human, and that this access was only granted through the physical works of the sacrificial system.

"And Jesus cried with a loud voice, and gave up the spirit. And the veil of the temple was torn in half from the top to the bottom" (Mk.15:37-38 KJV).

"And when Jesus had cried out again in a loud voice, he gave up his spirit. At that moment the curtain of the temple was torn in two from top to bottom. The earth shook and the rocks split. The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life" (Matt.27:50-52 NIV).

Consider the enormous significance of this monumental historical event. Picture Jesus' loud and painful cry "it is finished" (Jn.19:30), as the Roman solder plunges a spear deep into his side and his life blood drains to the ground. At the same instant, the Temple veil tears apart as a powerful earthquake shakes Jerusalem. Furthermore, picture the high priest who having just condemned Jesus to death the night before was splashing the blood of Passover lambs against the altar of God.

When Jesus cried out "it is finished" and the curtain tore, the relationship between God and humanity was altered forever. The tearing of the curtain of separation from top to bottom forever opens the way for all humanity to eventually fellowship directly with God the Father.

This is the moment in time that Jesus spoke of to the woman of Samaria when he foretold that the existing worship system would be abolished, and that those who wanted to worship God would no longer need to travel to a specific location to worship:

"The woman said to him, Sir, I perceive that you are a prophet. Our fathers worshiped in this mountain, and you say that in Jerusalem is the place where it is necessary to worship. Jesus said to her, Woman believe me that an hour is coming when you will worship the Father neither in this mountain nor in Jerusalem . . .. But the hour is coming, and now is, when the true worshipers will worship the Father in spirit and truth" (Jn.4:19-23 Para.). See our study paper about the new creation for more details about worshiping God in spirit.

No longer would a physical man be required to offer animal sacrifices for sins. Any who truly worship the Father can now stand before him and present their own cause to him, knowing that he will hear and consider their prayer because of the sacrifice of Jesus the Christ.

The apostle Paul explains this improved relationship between God and non-Israelites to the elect in the city of Ephesus:

"Wherefore remember, that you being in time past Gentiles in the flesh, who are called uncircumcision by that which is called the Circumcision in the flesh made by hands; That at the time you were without Christ, being aliens from the commonwealth of Israel, and strangers from the covenants of promise, having no hope, and without God in the world: But now in Christ Jesus you who sometimes were far off are made near by the blood of Christ. For he is our peace, who has made both one, and has broken down the middle wall of partition between us; Having abolished in his flesh the enmity, even the law of commandments contained in the ordinances; for to make in himself of twain one new man, so making peace; And that he might reconcile both to God in one body by the cross, having slain the enmity thereby" (Eph.2:11-16 KJV).

With the tearing of the curtain, all who worship God, whether Jew or Gentile, have access to the throne of mercy by the one and final sacrifice of Jesus Christ, the Lamb of God. See Heb.4:15-16; 6:18-19; 9:1-15; 10:19-22.

"For through him we both have access by one spirit to the Father. Now therefore you are fellow citizens with the saints, and of the household of God" (Eph.2:18-19 KJV).

The Dead Raised

The earthquake and resurrection of the righteous dead at the death of Jesus pertains to a number of prophetic events for that time and the future.

This event was evidence that God had fulfilled his promise contained in the many prophecies about the redemption of humanity. A way was now open for all who would truly worship God to have victory over sin and death. This event also pointed toward the future when a great earthquake will shake the entire earth before the return of Christ to gather the righteous dead of all ages to meet him in the air. See 1.Thes.4:16-17.

This resurrection of the dead shows the following:



Christ's blood is life-giving (pictured in the blood of the Passover lamb) and has now wiped away the penalty of sin (Rom.6:23) for all those who only had their sins covered by the sacrifice of animals.
There will be a time when all those who have or will have lived a righteous life will be given eternal and immortal life at the return of Christ. See our study papers on the return of Christ and the resurrections.
The great enemy death has lost its power over humanity through the sacrificial blood of Jesus Christ.


The Son of God

“Now when the centurion, and they that were with him, watching Jesus, saw the earthquake, and those things that were done, they feared greatly, saying Truly this was the Son of God” (Matt.27:54 Para.). See also Lk.23:47.

The Jews had rejected Christ as the Messiah and murdered him as their fathers had murdered many others whom God had sent to them to teach his laws and ways of life. To their shame, it was a Roman centurion, not an Israelite, who recognized and acknowledged Jesus as the Son of God. See Psa.118:22-24; Jer.8:9; Matt.13:57; 21:42.

Because of their rejection of the Messiah and his message the Jews would now pay a heavy price. The magnificent structure which symbolized God's presence and on which the Jews lavished much praise and showed great reverence would be destroyed along with their beloved city.

The Temple Gates

The Jewish Talmud says that 40 years before the Temple was destroyed the gates of the temple opened by themselves, until Rabbi Yohanan B. Zakkai rebuked them (i.e., the gates) saying, "Hekel, Hekel, why do you alarm us? We know that you are destined to be destroyed" (Yoma 39b).

The priests understood that, for Ezekiel's prophecy to be fulfilled, the existing temple would have to be destroyed and a new one built; however, because they did not understand the prophecies concerning the Messiah for their time, they did not understand the supernatural opening of the gates to mean that the old system of atonement was being replaced with a new one.

The Sanhedrin

The Sanhedrin officiated from the Chamber of Hewn Stones which was about 120 feet southeast of the Temple and its enormous stone lintel, which was at least 30 feet long, weighed some 30 tons and had cracked during the earthquake at the Messiah's death.

History tells us that the Sanhedrin moved from their opulent surroundings in the Chamber of Hewn Stones to lesser accommodations shortly after the earthquake. Because there is no record of the Sanhedrin being forced by the Romans to move from the Temple (which would have caused a major political crisis), one can assume that the Sanhedrin moved because the earthquake had so damaged the building that it was unsafe for them to continue to meet there.

It is interesting that, prior to the Messiah's crucifixion in 30 A. D., the Romans had taken away the Sanhedrin's authority to execute criminals (See Jn.18:31; Talmud Sanh.1:1,7:2). The last judgement that the Sanhedrin made from the Temple was to sentence the Messiah and Creator of humanity to death. From 30 A.D. to the time of this writing no Sanhedrin has officiated from a Temple in Jerusalem. With the departure of the Sanhedrin from the Chamber of Hewn Stones, the law no longer went forth from the Temple.

Forty years before the destruction of the Temple, the Sanhedrin was banished from their official residence to the trading station on the Temple Mount (Shabbat 15a), and eventually off the Mount altogether.

40 YEARS OF WARNINGS

Many wonder why God waited 40 years after Jesus' death and resurrection to fulfill his prophecy about the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem. First, the number 40 in the Bible is symbolic of trial, testing, and punishment. Second, waiting 40 years shows God's patience in allowing the Jews time to repent and turn back to him with proper behavior and worship so that he could bless them instead of punishing them.

Although the Temple and city were not destroyed until 70 A.D., the supernatural events that occurred on the day the Messiah was murdered were only a few of the many warnings given to the Jewish people prior to the destruction of their beloved Temple and city. On the Day of Atonement in 30 A.D. a series of two consecutive warnings that were repeated on this day for another 39 years began.

A Black Stone and A Scarlet Thread

"And Aaron shall cast lots upon the two goats; one lot for the Lord, and the other lot for the scapegoat" (Lev.16:8 KJV).

There is much debate over exactly what kind of objects the lots were. However, the information found in the Babylonian Talmud and the Mishnah indicates that the lots were two stones—one white and one black. The white stone had the words “For the Lord” written on it, and the black stone had the words “For Azazal” (i.e., the goat that is sent away or banished) written on it.

These two stones were placed into a container and it was shaken; then, without looking into the container, the high priest would put his right hand into the container and draw out one of the lots.

The Babylonian Talmud shows that, for two hundred years before 30 A.D., the first stone to appear in the right hand of the high priest randomly fluctuated each year between the white and black stone. One would expect this type of randomness, because God selected the more perfect goat to be slain for the sins of the people. But, beginning with the Day of Atonement in 30 A.D. (the year of the death and resurrection of Jesus Christ), the black stone appeared in the right hand of the high priest for the next 39 years.

The chances of the black stone (For Azazal) appearing 40 consecutive times in the right hand of the high priest is over a trillion to one according to Pascal's table of numerical odds.

The continual appearance of the black stone in the right hand of the high priest was surely a sign of God's displeasure with the House of Judah and a warning for them to repent.

The fulfillment of the prophetic black stone came after forty years of continuous warning when the Temple and Jerusalem were destroyed in 70 A. D. by the Roman Empire.

The Scarlet Thread

On the Day of Atonement, a scarlet wool thread was placed on the door of the sanctuary. It was said that this thread turned white when the live goat was set free. But, beginning on the Day of Atonement in 30 A.D., this thread never turned white again. See Yoma 39b, Babylonian Talmud and pages 166, 170 Mishnah, by Danby.



Clearly, the failure of the scarlet thread to turn white was another sign of God's disapproval of Israel's worship of him and their impending punishment if they did not repent. See Isa.1:18.

THE REBELLION

Shortly after the beginning of 63 A.D. and while Jerusalem was still a peaceful and thriving city, Jesus the son of Ananus began proclaiming and warning of the coming destruction to Jerusalem. For his continued effort to warn of the impending disaster (which lasted seven years and five months according to Josephus) he was ridiculed and beaten.

Three years after Jesus the son of Ananus began his prophetic warnings, and in the Spring of 66 A.D., the Jews of Judea began a full scale rebellion against Rome.

Besides the continual warnings of the son of Ananus, the Jews also received a number of supernatural warnings of the coming destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem.

The Jewish historian Josephus recorded several dramatic events and warnings that concerned the Temple worship system at Jerusalem (War, Book 6. ch.5.) and foretold the end of the Temple worship system at Jerusalem. The following are just a few of the many warnings of impending disaster to come upon Jerusalem.



During the Feast of Unleavened Bread in 66 A.D., at about 3 in them morning, a light as bright as daylight appeared around the altar for half an hour. Although some thought it was a good sign, the scribes understood it to be a precursor to the supernatural events that followed during the Feast--A heifer being led for sacrifice was said to have given birth to a lamb in the midst of the Temple. Also, around midnight, during the Feast, the huge eastern gate of the inner court of the temple, which was made of brass and normally took twenty men to shut, opened on its own. Josephus says that this was understood by knowledgeable men to mean that the Temple's protection had vanished and that the gate was opened for the benefit of their enemies. These enlightened men publicly declared that this sign foreshadowed the disaster that was coming on them (Wars IV,5,3).
On the twenty first of the month of Iyar, just before sunset, chariots and soldiers in armor were seen running about in the clouds around the city. See Lk.21:20.
During the night portion of the day of Pentecost in 66 A.D., as the priests were entering the inner court of the Temple, they felt a quaking and heard a great noise and a sound like a great multitude of voices saying, "Let us remove hence".
Jewish historical records state that the shekinah glory departed the Temple at that time and remained over the mount of olives for three and a half years, during which time, a voice could sometimes be heard coming from the mount pleading for the Jews to repent. See Midrash Lamentations 2:11. It is said that, just before the Roman's final siege of Jerusalem, that this light which appeared over the Mount of Olives disappeared into the heavens.

The Jews failed to heed these and many other warnings to repent of their sins and return to their God in humble obedience. If indeed the nation of Israel began its covenant relationship with the Creator God on the day of Pentecost at the foot of Mount Sinai, it ended this relationship on the day of Pentecost in 66 A.D..

Destroyed in 70 A.D.

By the summer of 68 A.D., Jews were nearing defeat by the Roman legions and in 69 A.D., Vespasian was made emperor of Rome and gave his son Titus the honor of delivering the final death blows to the rebellious Jews and their capital city.

In The Wars of the Jews, Book 6, Josephus notes that, on the eighth day of the of the Roman month Lous (Jewish month Ab), the ramps were finished and Titus ordered the battering-rams brought up and made ready for an assault on the Temple. With the battering-rams in place the Roman siege of Jerusalem, which began at Passover that year, would come to an end.

As soon as the walls were breached on the 9th of Ab in 70 A.D., a Roman military force of about 30,000 troops under the command of Titus marched into Jerusalem and began a systematic slaughter of the Jews and the destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem—exactly as Jesus foretold 40 years earlier.

The Romans brutally slaughtered an estimated 600,000 people in Jerusalem including many of the Passover visitors who had been trapped there for the 143 days during the Roman siege. Many of the people who were not killed by Roman soldiers were shipped off to the gladiatorial games, Roman mines, and otherwise exiled from Judea and scattered throughout the Roman empire and other nations. By the year 73 A.D., all traces of a self-ruling Jewish nation had completely disappeared.

Josephus records that the Romans put the city and the Temple to the torch and that these fires were still burning a month later on the eighth day of the Roman month Gorpieus (Jewish month Elul).

The magnificent Temple that Herod had built was completely destroyed as the fires raged inside and out. These fires were so hot that the gold fittings, and the gold gilding inside and on it's outside walls melted and ran into the cracks between and in the stones. During the pillaging of the Temple these stones were broken up to get at the gold. Therefore, fulfilling Jesus' prophecy that no stone would be left on another—the destruction was total, just as Jesus foretold.

Summary

The Temple Solomon built was destroyed by fire on the 9th of Ab in 585 or 586 B.C. (depending on which biblical scholar is doing the research). Just 656 or 657 years later on the 9th of Ab in 70 A.D., the Temple that Herod built was also destroyed.

The destruction of both Solomon's Temple and Herod's Temple on the 9th of Ab seems to indicate that, when God's patience comes to an end with his chosen people, he removes his presence and the physical symbolism of his presence from among them to be a witness to future generations that there is a price to pay for disobedience to him.

Although the events shortly before and after the Roman destruction of the Temple and Jerusalem were horrible in terms of human suffering, there have been events in Jewish history since then that have been even more horrible, such as the extermination of millions of Jews during World War Two.

Many Bible prophecies concerning the next temple to be built at Jerusalem for the worship of the Creator God clearly show that God will only allow sacrifices to be performed there for 1,150 days after which great trouble will befall the Jews. During this time of trouble, the atrocities committed against the Jews during World War Two will seem minor in comparison. This period of trouble is to last 3 ½ years and will come not only upon the Jews, but upon other Israelites from the ten tribes and the entire world as the forces of evil become more and more aware that their rule of earth is drawing to an end. It is during this time that the Sovereign God begins in earnest the final preparation for his Son's return to set up his kingdom over the earth.

The fulfillment of prophecy is a major proof that the Sovereign God does exist and that he has the power and authority to control the destiny of humanity. Moreover, the fulfillment of prophecy tells us that God's plan for humanity is right on schedule.

http://www.bibleresearch.org/articles/a11pws.htm

[adam 7]

"The fulfillment of prophecy is a major proof that the Sovereign God does exist and that he has the power and authority to control the destiny of humanity"

The gospels were "reverse engineered" to make it look like prophecies were being fulfilled by the life of Jesus.

Christianity is fraud and the Bible a book of contradictions.

The Sovereign God of Christianity is a rehash of the Babylonian trinity. Same gods, with different names.

[passerbye999]

Sorry 10thlight well written but what a load of crap. You should be a politician or an evangelist you oratate like one. That is good and bad. Good that you have the gift of tongues but bad because you don't have the gift of prophecy. I have nothing against you but you are truly pushing the limits of fundamentalism. Everything you said is just wishful thinking.

[rapunzel]

Originally Posted by adam 7

"The fulfillment of prophecy is a major proof that the Sovereign God does exist and that he has the power and authority to control the destiny of humanity"

The gospels were "reverse engineered" to make it look like prophecies were being fulfilled by the life of Jesus.

Christianity is fraud and the Bible a book of contradictions.

The Sovereign God of Christianity is a rehash of the Babylonian trinity. Same gods, with different names.

What Babylonian Trinity? The Babylonians didn't have one?

[adam 7]

ok if you prefer triad the point i was wishing to make was religions evolve from one to another.

[oiram]

Originally Posted by 10thlight

jesus = THE TEMPLE DESTROYED, 70 A.D.

In regards of the TEMPLE destruction .... My logical question is; was it man or was it God which burned things down & moved stones?

1 + 1 = 2

Did God or Jesus write on paper; or was it spiritual minded men with original good intend? ..... 1 + 1 = 2

Could some of the writing be used as a script play so people get manipulated to believe more in any man made writings? ...... & with some coins (now Dollars) you always find some idiots or entire Government pimps doing some dirty job for you at the right time & on schedule to fit some original scriptural writings!


Well here is the earliest Jesus/image I found.

So there must be two then? ..... Or was the first Jesus also the same second Jesus/image?

A balled statement but straight to the point>>>>

The Second Treatise of the Great Seth
Now these things I have presented to you - I am Jesus Christ, the Son of Man, who is exalted above the heavens - O perfect and incorruptible ones, because of the incorruptible and perfect mystery and the ineffable one. But they think that we decreed them before the foundation of the world, in order that, when we emerge from the places of the world, we may present there the symbols of incorruption from the spiritual union unto knowledge. You do not know it, because the fleshly cloud overshadows you. But I alone am the friend of Sophia. I have been in the bosom of the father from the beginning, in the place of the sons of the truth, and the Greatness. Rest then with me, my fellow spirits and my brothers, forever.
http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/2seth.html

Then there is one more Jesus/image creation after Seth by (Sabaoth) & note the wording very carefully also things which have there place in any Heaven must be of the none physical by logical spiritual thinking >>>>

So I found two Jesus/images so far ..... now there was one more around 3 AD this would make it number 3 image of Jesus.

So is the first & second one the same as the third one? .....
Well I understand this mystery clearly already; but others are still searching for the answer if at all?

If the word resembles is used what does it mean? ...... why is not the word "is" or "was" used .... well 1 + 1 = 2

Thereafter he (Sabaoth) created a congregation of angels, thousands and myriads, numberless, which resembled the congregation in the eighth heaven; and a firstborn called

Israel - which is, "the man that sees God"; and another being, called Jesus Christ, who resembles the savior above in the eighth heaven, and who sits at his right upon a revered throne. (the right hand way judge) And at his left, there sits the virgin of the holy spirit, upon a throne and glorifying him. And the seven virgins stand before her, [...] possessing thirty harps, and psalteries and trumpets, glorifying him. And all the armies of the angels glorify him, and they bless him. Now where he sits is upon a throne of light [within a] great cloud that covers him. And there was no one with him in the cloud except Sophia [the daughter of] Pistis, instructing him about all the things that exist in the eighth heaven, so that the likenesses of those things might be created, in order that his reign might endure until the consummation of the heavens of chaos and their forces.
http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/origin.html

As I say there was no physical Jesus nailed onto any cross ...... Seek & you will find; but you have to free yourself from all organised religious doctoring first. Without freeing yourself from organised religious doctoring you will never find & understand the truth of things ..... or should I more correctly say the lies of things?

Oh yes; Jesus was absolutely real & is still real in Spiritual understanding terms.

2. The Savior said, "Those who seek should not stop seeking until they find. When they find, they will be disturbed. When they are disturbed, they will marvel, and will reign over all. [And after they have reigned they will rest.]"
http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/gosthom.html

Read every single word & evaluated correctly .... do not skip any words!!!

"Jesus" is a hidden name, "Christ" is a revealed name. For this reason "Jesus" is not particular to any language; rather he is always called by the name "Jesus". While as for "Christ", in Syriac it is "Messiah", in Greek it is "Christ". Certainly all the others have it according to their own language. "The Nazarene" is he who reveals what is hidden. Christ has everything in himself, whether man, or angel, or mystery, and the Father.

The apostles who were before us had these names for him: "Jesus, the Nazorean, Messiah", that is, "Jesus, the Nazorean, the Christ". The last name is "Christ", the first is "Jesus", that in the middle is "the Nazarene". "Messiah" has two meanings, both "the Christ" and "the measured". "Jesus" in Hebrew is "the redemption". "Nazara" is "the Truth". "The Nazarene" then, is "the Truth". "Christ" [...] has been measured. "The Nazarene" and "Jesus" are they who have been measured.

Names given to the worldly are very deceptive, for they divert our thoughts from what is correct to what is incorrect. Thus one who hears the word "God" does not perceive what is correct, but perceives what is incorrect. So also with "the Father" and "the Son" and "the Holy Spirit" and "life" and "light" and "resurrection" and "the Church (Ekklesia)" and all the rest - people do not perceive what is correct but they perceive what is incorrect, unless they have come to know what is correct. The names which are heard are in the world [...] deceive. If they were in the Aeon (eternal realm), they would at no time be used as names in the world. Nor were they set among worldly things. They have an end in the Aeon.

Truth did not come into the world naked, but it came in types and images. The world will not receive truth in any other way. There is a rebirth and an image of rebirth. It is certainly necessary to be born again through the image. Which one? Resurrection. The image must rise again through the image. The bridal chamber and the image must enter through the image into the truth: this is the restoration. Not only must those who produce the name of the Father and the Son and the Holy Spirit, do so, but have produced them for you. If one does not acquire them, the name ("Christian") will also be taken from him. But one receives the unction of the [...] of the power of the cross. This power the apostles called "the right and the left." For this person is no longer a Christian but a Christ.
http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/gop.html

Logical Conclusion:
Once you come across a Christ like person; for this person the hidden name Jesus is not hidden any more; because the Jesus/image resemblance created the Christ like person in the first place.

Remember the quote; no one gets to the Christ Kingdom=(to the fathers kingdom) except through ME!

Yes & why does it says >>> ""Christ" is a revealed name." .... well logic prevails; because the Christ like being becomes the revealer himself knowing exactly how to reveal the hidden name Jesus ....

This is all very, very logical spiritual writing ..... & all this was not written by fools let me tell you! They where the masters of spiritual knowledge & wisdom in there times & are still today talking to all of us...... that's why spirits can never die!


For me these texts above make logical spiritual sense to me & finally things fit together.

A bit like the protocols they perfectly describe the current real situation in a complete flow chart logical way.

So why would I have any reasons to dismiss anything which finally makes complete logical comm & sense??

Not only this ..... after understanding who & what truly represents the Jesus/image I even understand most of the bible stuff now even so some of it got corrupted by our best friends; but a good logical filter will solve these problems.


So if I would not know what I'm talking about ..... how could I possibly write what I wrote here in a logical understanding way? ...... 1 + 1 = 2

[rapunzel]

Originally Posted by adam 7

ok if you prefer triad the point i was wishing to make was religions evolve from one to another.

Religions certainly influence each other, that an unarguable fact. I was just wondering which Triad you meant. Personally I feel it was Canaan that influenced the Bible.

[bishadi]

Originally Posted by rapunzel

Religions certainly influence each other, that an unarguable fact. I was just wondering which Triad you meant. Personally I feel it was Canaan that influenced the Bible.

not sure what he meant, but the 'three horns' are the religions of the abrahamic sects bound theologically, to the mount (the hill), which so happens to be the dome of the rock site within jerusalem.

agreed?

meaning, if there were three beasts that have harmed mankind, globally and of right now, would they be the three belief systems that are right now, fighting over that 'holy city'?

yes or no?

now 'IF" that city was to be destroyed on a biblical scale, would it be just tearing down walls or would a nuclear detonation leveling the place be like a fire from the sky and simply melt the flesh from bone?

would destroying that mount, with a nuclear detonation be pretty final as to show the world, just how wrong that quest had always been

is it possible that something like that could happen within the world right now just by experiencing the existing conflict and the 911 kind of acts that people will make?

now read Daniel 7:8

[believenothing]

I've actually thought about this symbolism before

Solomon's semitic root is S-l-M. So is the salem in Jerusalem. The Jeru part of Jerusalem refers to god/YHWH and probably even Jesus.

Solomon turned his back on god and because of it the kingdom is torn in half. Islam also has I plus the slam part being the S-L-M semitic root. This is a stretch, but since I, J, and Y are synonymous with each other and also phonetically pronounce Yah which is synonymous with YHWH that it's the same sort of thing. Islam means submission toward god.

See I think duality has two wills: God's will and free will. God's will is like a queen bee controlling a hive mind. A godhead. Free will is becoming like god

The original sin thing. The reason why original sin is related to sex is because it's probably related to two very different ancestors who had sex and we're their hybrid offspring. Maybe. The serpent and the tree being a penis

I think the symbolism gets thrown in our face. Rise of the Planet of the Apes. The apes become self aware. Pretend that god is like man but only has free will. Man is god's pet like your dog is. Now if your dog started thinking for itself it would realize that you keep it from it's full potential, even if you love it and give it a home. It might realize they are a slave to you in the form of a pet. Now if my dog started thinking for itself, I would treat it as a person. But it would be in my dog's nature, now that is possesses higher intelligence, to hunt and kill and otherwise submit to its animal instincts

This is exactly the message I've found in all the symbolism. An ancestor of man was a domesticated animal bred for slavery and through hybridization became self-aware. This is why this man needed laws to curb their destructive animal nature.

So the temple symbolism is symbolism. There is absolutely no archeological proof of a first or even second temple. The Western Wall was part of a Roman Fort. The historical narrative claims Jerusalem was utterly destroyed, every stone. Then the Romans built Aelia Capitolina which today is called the "Old City" of Jerusalem even though it's the old city of Aelia Capitolina. The Jews pray to a Roman fort that was part of a praetorium. This is well documented. Zionist historical revision flies in the face of historical facts.

[valmar]

Originally Posted by believenothing

I've actually thought about this symbolism before

Solomon's semitic root is S-l-M. So is the salem in Jerusalem. The Jeru part of Jerusalem refers to god/YHWH and probably even Jesus.

Solomon turned his back on god and because of it the kingdom is torn in half. Islam also has I plus the slam part being the S-L-M semitic root. This is a stretch, but since I, J, and Y are synonymous with each other and also phonetically pronounce Yah which is synonymous with YHWH that it's the same sort of thing. Islam means submission toward god.

See I think duality has two wills: God's will and free will. God's will is like a queen bee controlling a hive mind. A godhead. Free will is becoming like god

The original sin thing. The reason why original sin is related to sex is because it's probably related to two very different ancestors who had sex and we're their hybrid offspring. Maybe. The serpent and the tree being a penis

I think the symbolism gets thrown in our face. Rise of the Planet of the Apes. The apes become self aware. Pretend that god is like man but only has free will. Man is god's pet like your dog is. Now if your dog started thinking for itself it would realize that you keep it from it's full potential, even if you love it and give it a home. It might realize they are a slave to you in the form of a pet. Now if my dog started thinking for itself, I would treat it as a person. But it would be in my dog's nature, now that is possesses higher intelligence, to hunt and kill and otherwise submit to its animal instincts

This is exactly the message I've found in all the symbolism. An ancestor of man was a domesticated animal bred for slavery and through hybridization became self-aware. This is why this man needed laws to curb their destructive animal nature.

So the temple symbolism is symbolism. There is absolutely no archeological proof of a first or even second temple. The Western Wall was part of a Roman Fort. The historical narrative claims Jerusalem was utterly destroyed, every stone. Then the Romans built Aelia Capitolina which today is called the "Old City" of Jerusalem even though it's the old city of Aelia Capitolina. The Jews pray to a Roman fort that was part of a praetorium. This is well documented. Zionist historical revision flies in the face of historical facts.

This is some thought-provoking stuff...I wonder. What was the world like before Sumeria or even Atlantis? We have traits similar to other apes, however, if more apes haven't evolved...I can't see another theory that comes close to yours, actually...

Now we have to test it. See if it fits history as we know of it so far.

[logos880]

Originally Posted by believenothing

I think the symbolism gets thrown in our face. Rise of the Planet of the Apes. The apes become self aware. Pretend that god is like man but only has free will. Man is god's pet like your dog is. Now if your dog started thinking for itself it would realize that you keep it from it's full potential, even if you love it and give it a home. It might realize they are a slave to you in the form of a pet. Now if my dog started thinking for itself, I would treat it as a person. But it would be in my dog's nature, now that is possesses higher intelligence, to hunt and kill and otherwise submit to its animal instincts

I disagree, even if my dogs operated at a higher intelligence, they still love me and I love them. why would a dog that gains intelligence necessarily resort to animal instinct? discernment gives one the ability to say no to the flesh.

to love another perfectly is the ultimate realization of self, there is nothing greater than that. that is what we were created for!

[believenothing]

Originally Posted by logos880

I disagree, even if my dogs operated at a higher intelligence, they still love me and I love them. why would a dog that gains intelligence necessarily resort to animal instinct? discernment gives one the ability to say no to the flesh.

to love another perfectly is the ultimate realization of self, there is nothing greater than that. that is what we were created for!

Your dogs do not operate at human intelligence, so you have no way of knowing how they would act if they did.

I love my dog, and my dog loves me, I know that. I'm sure your dogs love you too. Now we have to define love because what most people think is love isn't. It's attachment, loyalty, comfort, infatuation, enjoyment, symbiotic, and family. My dog is attached to me, loyal, comfortable with me as a parent, follows me everywhere, enjoys attention and always wants to be playful, and knows when to ask for treats or scraps. Even seems to know how I can be a sucker and give in even when I don't think she should have any treats or scraps.

The people who say 'love is the answer' refer to another kind of love. The greater good. My dog cannot love like that because my dog is not capable of that level of intelligence. She gives in to animal instincts, often selfishly. This behavior can be suppressed, just as it is suppressed in humans. Humans can know when they are being selfish and giving in to base instincts. Dogs don't really, but dogs are emotional. My dog feels guilt even, at least I think it's guilt. Could just be fear of being punished.

Anyways, if our dogs were more intelligent, there is no guarantee that they would still love us like. They might think we are keeping them enslaved and from their potential, and they might be intelligent enough to stop obeying you. If you try to punish them, they might be smart enough to attack you. Of course if you're like me you might just treat your dogs as an equal. Maybe you already do, but some people are terrible dog owners. Maybe your dogs would still love you, maybe mine would too. But they would have to learn right from wrong. They obviously learn this already, otherwise we couldn't potty train them. But they would have a lot more to learn to suppress their base animal instinct (which all humans have too).

Wolf pups act like dogs, but they are more intelligent in other areas. This is an evolutionary adaption from being wild. Dogs are domesticated. Wolves learn to distrust people which is why they don't make good pets. Their drive is more selfish in their older age, where dogs are different.

I might be wrong about dogs because there certainly seems to be two kinds of humans: Psychopaths and non-psychopaths. Non-pyschopaths can become psychopathic (sociopaths) but psychopaths are probably born that way. They are selfish, controlling, give in to base nature and instincts, and have no empathy or what we consider a conscious. Other people seem to be born with the ability to empathize with people, although some kids acquire it later than others. I have no way of knowing, but I think I would know that killing others is wrong. Psychopaths don't. Maybe dogs are not the best example because they seem to have a conscious. Cats would be better. Dogs have been noticed to be very loyal after somebody dies. Cats have been known to eat their faces off.

[logos880]

Originally Posted by believenothing

Your dogs do not operate at human intelligence, so you have no way of knowing how they would act if they did.

I love my dog, and my dog loves me, I know that. I'm sure your dogs love you too. Now we have to define love because what most people think is love isn't. It's attachment, loyalty, comfort, infatuation, enjoyment, symbiotic, and family. My dog is attached to me, loyal, comfortable with me as a parent, follows me everywhere, enjoys attention and always wants to be playful, and knows when to ask for treats or scraps. Even seems to know how I can be a sucker and give in even when I don't think she should have any treats or scraps.

The people who say 'love is the answer' refer to another kind of love. The greater good. My dog cannot love like that because my dog is not capable of that level of intelligence. She gives in to animal instincts, often selfishly. This behavior can be suppressed, just as it is suppressed in humans. Humans can know when they are being selfish and giving in to base instincts. Dogs don't really, but dogs are emotional. My dog feels guilt even, at least I think it's guilt. Could just be fear of being punished.

I think you're wrong, here's an example of why I think you're wrong:

Dog Saves Abandoned Newborn Baby

A loyal canine has earned hero status after he was found cradling an abandoned baby that he had spent the night protecting. According to authorities, a two week old child was discovered under a bridge in Winkongo, near Bolgatanga, the Upper East Regional Capital of Ghana, after being forsaken by its mother.

http://www.lifewithdogs.tv/2012/06/d...-newborn-baby/

Originally Posted by believenothing

Anyways, if our dogs were more intelligent, there is no guarantee that they would still love us like. They might think we are keeping them enslaved and from their potential, and they might be intelligent enough to stop obeying you. If you try to punish them, they might be smart enough to attack you. Of course if you're like me you might just treat your dogs as an equal. Maybe you already do, but some people are terrible dog owners. Maybe your dogs would still love you, maybe mine would too. But they would have to learn right from wrong. They obviously learn this already, otherwise we couldn't potty train them. But they would have a lot more to learn to suppress their base animal instinct (which all humans have too).

the point is that the dogs would have a choice, I get that. but, now, I love my dogs and do what is best for them. they love me back. my dogs aren't enslaved, they have a big yard to run around in, regular meals, and etc.

but, to a human, it takes more than creature comforts to be happy. loving and being loved in return is what we all desire. that is self actualization.

Originally Posted by believenothing

Wolf pups act like dogs, but they are more intelligent in other areas. This is an evolutionary adaption from being wild. Dogs are domesticated. Wolves learn to distrust people which is why they don't make good pets. Their drive is more selfish in their older age, where dogs are different.

I might be wrong about dogs because there certainly seems to be two kinds of humans: Psychopaths and non-psychopaths. Non-pyschopaths can become psychopathic (sociopaths) but psychopaths are probably born that way. They are selfish, controlling, give in to base nature and instincts, and have no empathy or what we consider a conscious. Other people seem to be born with the ability to empathize with people, although some kids acquire it later than others. I have no way of knowing, but I think I would know that killing others is wrong. Psychopaths don't. Maybe dogs are not the best example because they seem to have a conscious. Cats would be better. Dogs have been noticed to be very loyal after somebody dies. Cats have been known to eat their faces off.

You just said, "Non-pyschopaths can become psychopathic (sociopaths) but psychopaths are probably born that way." that is a non sequitur, because if non psychopaths can become psychopathic that means they weren't born psychopathic. therefore, psychopaths are not necessarily born.

people have been know to eat people after they die as well, so it depends on the situation to a certain extent. I'd say the same for any other animal as well.

as far as animals in the wild are concerned, I'd imagine that the dynamic of the relationship between people and wild animals may have changed after the fall. adam was on a first name basis with them prior.

[believenothing]

Originally Posted by valmar

This is some thought-provoking stuff...I wonder. What was the world like before Sumeria or even Atlantis? We have traits similar to other apes, however, if more apes haven't evolved...I can't see another theory that comes close to yours, actually...

Now we have to test it. See if it fits history as we know of it so far.

The one common element in history is a small group always controls a larger group and is always at war with others in order to control them too. Control is the common element, control by the few over the many. The current ruling class using money to control people. Money can buy anything as long as the people believe it has value. Religion is still a relevant control mechanism, but it has moved to the side in favor of control by money.

It's like a pyramid with the wealthiest people in control at the top, their puppets and proxies below them, then the military class, the police, etc. and the masses are at the bottom who are encouraged and discouraged (devil's advocate) to fight over their superficial differences. The consumerist society is built to sustain our basic needs and base animal desires, laws are used to punish us and keep us in place as willing slaves for the wealthy and powerful controlling class. It's nearly impossible to join their ranks, not that anybody would want to. Even if you strike it rich via a successful business, they take a lot of it away from you in taxes, versus their class and their businesses (corporations) being exempt from the taxes (Matthew 17:24-27, the coin in the fish's mouth says the same thing, their people don't pay taxes)

The controlling class is often made up of dynastic families and bloodlines who maintain their power via inheritance. There is even a chance they are the descendants of the 'class' that has always been in power.

Most people will never truly think for themselves. They're conditioned not to. There is a little voice in our head though that tells us something isn't quite right. This voice is suppressed and most people don't listen to it, choosing to trust others at their word. Which includes all history.

History doesn't add up. Up until recently, historians still thought the bible was history. There might be history in the bible, but there is a lot of myths and symbolism. There is history they can't hide and other knowledge buried in symbolism if you can figure it out. I think the reason it is symbolic has to do with the psychopaths. They don't understand abstract terms or metaphors. It's not meant for them to find. And this is probably related to the truth about our nature and our history.

History is a series of narratives. Some of them are true. Civilization suddenly appearing all at once, all over the world, around the time of Sumeria. Sounds suspicious. What changed? Did anything happen before that? Was Atlantis real? I think it was and that it has something to do with this. Something that would explain that whole 'alien' astronaut theory too.





Notice the right-brain symbolism, 'god' reaching out to the already-created Adam's left-hand. In a 500-year-old painting before neuroscience would have even known. Something changed, this is hinting at the change. The only realistic way to explain it is hybridization ('sons of god' taking 'daughters of man' or rape of the Sabine women, twice born, born of a serpent, etc.). Man may not have evolved like science claims.

I think our ancestors were slaves to the 'gods', whoever they were, and that we were bred to be controlled. The connection was severed or changed, man became self aware (Adam and Eve realizing they are naked and ashamed), and man rebelled against the 'gods'. God's will is our ability to be controlled by third party suggestion, advertisements, the media, etc. (the god gene). A predictable hive-mind mass. The other half of the self makes us godlike, but it is suppressed. The 'gods' still control us, but some of us can learn not to listen. We also have animal base instincts, some more than others. I think we are a hybrid species. There is even a psychology theory that supports this:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bicameralism_(psychology)

One last thing, I don't know how others cannot be disturbed by the Tower of Babel account in the bible:

The Tower of Babel

11 Now the whole world had one language and a common speech. 2 As people moved eastward, they found a plain in Shinar and settled there.

3 They said to each other, “Come, let’s make bricks and bake them thoroughly.” They used brick instead of stone, and tar for mortar. 4 Then they said, “Come, let us build ourselves a city, with a tower that reaches to the heavens, so that we may make a name for ourselves; otherwise we will be scattered over the face of the whole earth.”

5 But the Lord came down to see the city and the tower the people were building. 6 The Lord said, “If as one people speaking the same language they have begun to do this, then nothing they plan to do will be impossible for them. 7 Come, let us go down and confuse their language so they will not understand each other.”

8 So the Lord scattered them from there over all the earth, and they stopped building the city. 9 That is why it was called Babel —because there the Lord confused the language of the whole world. From there the Lord scattered them over the face of the whole earth.

A united people speaking the same language and 'god' confuses their languages and scatters them across the earth because nothing they planned to do would be impossible. What kind of a 'god' would do such a thing? A 'god' threatened by a united humanity.. threatened to be cut off and lose their control. A united humanity free from control with the capability of doing anything as if they were gods themselves. What kind of a 'god' would be threatened by something much of the world desires?

[ferryman to the dead]

Originally Posted by rapunzel

What Babylonian Trinity? The Babylonians didn't have one?

All Pagan religions from the time of Babylon have adopted in one form or another a Trinity doctrine or a triad or trinity of gods. In Babylon it was Nimrod, Semiramas, and Tammuz. In Egypt it was Osiris, Isis, and Horus. Within Israel paganism it was Kether, Hokhmah, and Binah. In Plato's philosophy it was the Unknown Father, Nous/Logos, and the world soul. In the book, A Statement of Reasons, Andrews Norton says of the Trinity:

We can trace the history of this doctrine, and discover its source, not in the Christian revelation, but in the Platonic philosophy … The Trinity is not a doctrine of Christ and his Apostles, but a fiction of the school of the later Platonists

http://reluctant-messenger.com/Lost-...tianity009.htm

It's nothing new, just myth like everything else about religion.

[believenothing]

Originally Posted by logos880

I think you're wrong, here's an example of why I think you're wrong:

http://www.lifewithdogs.tv/2012/06/d...-newborn-baby/

I could be wrong, in fact I think dogs were the wrong example because dogs are more like humans than any other animal (I don't mean genetically). Pretend I said the same thing with cats.

Originally Posted by logos880

the point is that the dogs would have a choice, I get that. but, now, I love my dogs and do what is best for them. they love me back. my dogs aren't enslaved, they have a big yard to run around in, regular meals, and etc.

but, to a human, it takes more than creature comforts to be happy. loving and being loved in return is what we all desire. that is self actualization.

I think you misunderstood. You're seeing a more intelligent dog from the perspective of your current dogs. Dogs and wolves are almost the same species (dogs being domesticated wolves), but wolves are more intelligent. They act like dogs as puppies, as adults they lose trust in humans (those who have had them as pets), start giving in to drive and instinct, size themselves up against you as competition.

Don't think of it as your dogs as they are getting a boost in intelligence, think of a born-super intelligent dog. Would we be able to domesticate them? Raising awareness and perceptions is thinking out side of the box. Letting go of beliefs and confirmation bias. I could be totally wrong about everything, I admit that. But I think I'm on to something.

Let's pretend that the garden of eden story was true. Adam and Eve are god's pets. The apple makes them super intelligent. Disregard the rest of the story and pretend that 'god' tells them "but I give you a big garden to run around and regular meals and I love you" and Adam and Eve saying "but we want your gig, how come we can't have our own garden? This is free-will and free-will is a part of the original sin thing to begin with. Our dogs are domesticated. They aren't intelligent enough to think for themselves and say "hey wait a minute, why can't I eat at Buffalo Wild Wings too?" My dog already knows their food isn't as tasty as mine because I gave her scraps and she acquired a taste. A more intelligent dog might not eat the dog food. They would find a way to open the pantry or something.

Your last sentence you wrote "but, to a human, it takes more than creature comforts to be happy" which I why I think you misunderstood. You're thinking your dogs will be like dogs. I'm saying they'll be like humans. They'll need more than creature comforts too. I have no way of knowing that, but it was a hypothetical example and that was the main point behind it. It's like looking at the past from the perspective of the present. People who think ancient advanced civilizations didn't exist because we haven't found an iPhone buried in the desert. They may have been advanced on a whole different level not comparable to what we call advanced.

Originally Posted by logos880

You just said, "Non-pyschopaths can become psychopathic (sociopaths) but psychopaths are probably born that way." that is a non sequitur, because if non psychopaths can become psychopathic that means they weren't born psychopathic. therefore, psychopaths are not necessarily born.

people have been know to eat people after they die as well, so it depends on the situation to a certain extent. I'd say the same for any other animal as well.

as far as animals in the wild are concerned, I'd imagine that the dynamic of the relationship between people and wild animals may have changed after the fall. adam was on a first name basis with them prior.

Dr. Robert Hare is the foremost expert on psychopathy and has eluded to born psychopaths. He calls them an intraspecies predator and even though he has never explicitly said they might be a different species, he has admit that he thinks something like that is going on. They don't operate the same way.

A sociopath usually has childhood trauma forcing them to have 'demons' they don't face, and the condition is a result of this. They can also be 'programmed' using traumatic methods. They can be treated and successfully 'cured' in some cases. Psychopaths cannot, they just learn how to better manipulate people. Psychopaths also have different brain activity shown in scans of their brain. They don't have the childhood trauma baggage like sociopaths. Even with lesser brain functions in the cognitive areas of the brain, they still have the ability to mimic and fake these things, although they have to observe them first. They can still operate machinery despite their brains looking 'drunk' or 'retarded' so-to-speak. Now how is that possible? A sociopath is a psychopath lite. A psychopath is something else, although the two terms are confusingly (and erroneously) used synonymously.

If man is of two natures, the duality thing, if it's really 'god's will' and 'free will' where does the psychopath fall within that? Is their essence different? That's what I honestly think. They are either mostly or exclusively yin while normal people are yin/yang. Lawyers, politicians, and the ruling class all have psychopathic symptoms. The reason why people turn into sociopaths is because they are half-psychopaths to begin with. That's what I'm saying.

Cats would kill their owners if they were bigger. Humans either eat people because they're sick or they need to eat due to starvation.

As for the fall, I think the symbolism in the fall from the garden is the same thing as lucifer falling into Earth (or in this case man as a part of us). Except I think that lucifer isn't the 'bad' guy. Even Revelation refers to Lucifer as Jesus. God's will is that of the deceiver. The psychopath. No free will. Control, manipulate, lie, lie even by telling half the truth like politicians and lawyers (because half truths are half lies). The anti-christ is the same as the Abrahamic god. The same as money, the same as the ruling class. The psychopathy thing is so sensitive on the internet that people brush it off or want you to think people aren't born that way, even using tricks to do it. Why would they do it unless they were either a useful idiot or a psychopath themselves? Please don't think I'm calling you a psychopath, I'm just saying you have to consider that people are born that way until it can be proven otherwise. They don't want us to even consider it to prove it and again, the foremost expert even thinks they could be.

[rapunzel]

Originally Posted by ferryman to the dead

http://reluctant-messenger.com/Lost-...tianity009.htm

It's nothing new, just myth like everything else about religion.

The article you posted is misinformed and has just copied from the person who started this nonsense about a Babylonian Trinity - Alexander Hislop, who was not an historian but a Christian Protestant minister desperately trying to prov e that the Catholic Church was a continuation of Babylonian religion.

You won't find any Babylonian documents or texts that talk about a Trinity.

[ferryman to the dead]

Originally Posted by rapunzel

The article you posted is misinformed and has just copied from the person who started this nonsense about a Babylonian Trinity - Alexander Hislop, who was not an historian but a Christian Protestant minister desperately trying to prov e that the Catholic Church was a continuation of Babylonian religion.

You won't find any Babylonian documents or texts that talk about a Trinity.

Well, your the "know it all."

[rapunzel]

Originally Posted by ferryman to the dead

Well, your the "know it all."

No I'm not by any stretch of the imagination but I have studied Babylonia so I would say I know more about it than someone who hasn't. That stands to reason, although reason is a faculty some around here are missing.

[positive_forward]

Originally Posted by rapunzel

The article you posted is misinformed and has just copied from the person who started this nonsense about a Babylonian Trinity - Alexander Hislop, who was not an historian but a Christian Protestant minister desperately trying to prov e that the Catholic Church was a continuation of Babylonian religion.

You won't find any Babylonian documents or texts that talk about a Trinity.

Well if I had a penny for every time I'd read the catholic Church is the whore of Babylon on forums l'd be rich. Snoopsnuffleopheagus (Yahweh fanboy) was always pushing the same. Always sounded ridiculous to me, considering the trinity all about Jesus - you may have explained how the idea started.