2001: The Shining / Analyses of Kubrick's Films

[dr steam]

Continuity Polaroid taken on the set of The Shining, dated October 26, 1978. Handwriting indicates which knife Shelley Duvall grabs in the shot, as well as the time showing on a clock on the wall.



All work and no play makes Jack a dull boy...

Flying The Big Wheel

http://kdk12.tumblr.com/post/6553364...-the-big-wheel







Of course there is a danger that some audiences may misunderstand what you say and think that one can dispense altogether with reason, falling into the clouded mysticism which is currently so popular in America.

People can misinterpret almost anything so that it coincides with views they already hold. They take from art what they already believe, and I wonder how many people have ever had their views about anything important changed by a work of art?

Did you have a religious upbringing?

No, not at all.

Kubrick on The Shining
An interview with Michel Ciment
http://www.visual-memory.co.uk/amk/d...erview.ts.html

[1331]

Originally Posted by feralgoose

I'll let you know what I suspect...

...all conjecture but make of it what you will 1331 you are on the right track like many here.

I think you summed it up nicely! All one can do is trust oneself and make of it as one wish. Keep up the good job!

[feralgoose]

Originally Posted by feralgoose

Hey guys I've screen shotted some more clues for you guys looking into this Ram, Pan , Faun connection. Hope these are of some use. From the Hunted Enchanters scene:



Note quilty is the man behind the curtain, like the statue in the screen shot with the phallic nymph aiming his 'sacred weapon'

"I stand before you a rearsome bucky goat no more
Tremble not little nymph
You see before you a weary goat
The bewitcher is bewitched"
(As Lolita steps onto stage taking her cue, quilty raises his camera and points it at Lolita)



The bewitcher is bewitched - Perhaps a reference to Lolita, she is the bewitcher of Humbert, but she herself is bewitched by Quilty.


As the boy speaks these words he removes his horns:



Lolita: "Look, Semeramis, Look"
'semeramis': "Yes the goat removeth his horns"
Lolita: "Let us take him to the dark kingdom"
- 'Yes!'
Lolita: "To the dark Kingdom away!"

They drag the boy off stage and the production is concluded.




A cheeky reference to Kubricks own use of symbolism

Mason replies - I know what yu mean but wheren't the boys and girls charming.

Perhaps over his head, he was more intrerested in the 'glamour' of the actors.






Lolita's fellow actress plays a part referred to by name as Semiramis. A quick look on wiki:

"The real and historical Shammuramat (in Greek, Semiramis), was the Assyrian queen of Shamshi-Adad V (ruled 824 BC–811 BC), King of Assyria and ruler of the Neo Assyrian Empire, and its regent for four years until her son Adad-nirari III came of age.[1]

For the ancient Greeks[2] Semiramis (pronounced /səˈmɪrəmɪs/) was one of several legendary Assyrian queens. The most recent was Semiramis II for whom the Hanging Gardens of Babylon were built.[3][citation needed]

The legends narrated by Diodorus Siculus, Justin and others from Ctesias of Cnidus make a picture of her and her relationship to King Ninus, himself a mythical king of Assyria, not attested in the Assyrian King List.

The name of Semiramis came to be applied to various monuments in Western Asia, the origin of which was forgotten or unknown.[4] Ultimately every stupendous work of antiquity by the Euphrates or in Iran seems to have been ascribed to her, even the Behistun Inscription of Darius.[5] Herodotus ascribes to her the artificial banks that confined the Euphrates[6] and knows her name as borne by a gate of Babylon.[7] The Hanging Gardens of Babylon, one of the Seven Wonders of the Ancient World are also known as the Hanging Gardens of Semiramis.[citation needed]

Various places in Assyria, Mesopotamia, Medea, Persia and Asia Minor bore the name of Semiramis, but slightly changed, even in the Middle Ages, and an old name of the city of Van was Shamiramagerd. Assyrians still name female children Semiramis to this day.

According to the legend as related by Diodorus, Semiramis was of noble parents, the daughter of the fish-goddess Derketo of Ascalon in Syria and a mortal. Derketo abandoned her at birth and drowned herself. The child was fed by doves until she was found and brought up by Simmas, the royal shepherd.

Afterwards she married Onnes or Menones, one of the generals of Ninus. Ninus was so struck by her bravery at the capture of Bactra that he married her, forcing Onnes to commit suicide.

She and Ninus had a son named Ninyas. After King Ninus conquered Asia, including the Bactrians, he was fatally wounded by an arrow. Semiramis then masqueraded as her son and tricked her late husband's army into following her instructions because they thought these came from their new ruler. After Ninus's death she reigned as queen regnant, conquering much of Asia.

Not only was she able to reign effectively, she also added Ethiopia to the empire. She restored ancient Babylon and protected it with a high brick wall that completely surrounded the city. She is also credited with inventing the chastity belt. Roman historian Ammianus Marcellinus credits her as the first person to castrate a male youth into eunuch-hood: "Semiramis, that ancient queen who was the first person to castrate male youths of tender age" (Lib. XIV).

According to Hislop's The Two Babylons (1853) in the end, however, her son Zoroaster killed her. This may be derived from the legend of Ishtar and Gilgamesh.

The association of the fish and dove is found at Hierapolis Bambyce (Mabbog), the great temple at which, according to one legend, was founded by Semiramis,[8] where her statue was shown with a golden dove on her head.[9]

Armenian tradition portrays her as a homewrecker and a harlot. These facts are partly to be explained by observing that, according to the legends, in her birth as well as in her disappearance from earth, Semiramis appears as a goddess, the daughter of the fish-goddess Atargatis, and herself connected with the doves of Ishtar or Astartë.

One of the most popular legends in Armenian tradition involves Semiramis and an Armenian king, Ara the Beautiful. In the 20th century, the poet Nairi Zarian retold the story of Ara the Beautiful and Shamiram, in a work considered to be a masterpiece of Armenian literary drama.

According to the legend, Semiramis had heard about the fame of the handsome Armenian king Ara, and she lusted after his image. She asked Ara to marry her, but he refused; upon hearing this, she gathered the armies of Assyria and marched against Armenia.

During the battle, which may have taken place in the Ararat valley, Ara was slain. In order to avoid continuous warfare with the Armenians, Semiramis, reputed to be a sorceress, took his body and prayed to the gods to raise Ara from the dead. When the Armenians advanced to avenge their leader, she disguised one of her lovers as Ara and spread the rumor that the gods had brought Ara back to life. As a result, the war ended.[10]

Although many different versions of the legend exist, it is usually accepted that Ara never came back to life.


The historical Semiramis

While the achievements of Semiramis are clearly mythical and metaphorical, there was a historical Assyrian queen Shammuramat (Semiramis), wife of Shamshi-Adad V of Assyria. After her husband's death, she served as regent from 810 - 806 BC for her son, Adad-nirari III.[1] Semiramis would thus have been briefly in control of the vast Neo Assyrian Empire which ruled Babylonia, western Iran (Persia and Media), Israel, much of Asia Minor and Arabia, Phoenicia and Syria among others. Georges Roux has speculated that the many later Indo-Iranian (Persian, Median and Urartian/Armenian) flavoured myths surrounding Semiramis stem from successful campaigns waged by her against these peoples, and the novelty of a woman ruling such an empire.[11]

Some have claimed that her legends were created so that she could be worshiped as a goddess to further solidify her reign and power, but this is not borne out by the Assyrian documents of the time.

I implied but didnt make it explicit in this post. I think the removal of the horns. or the HORN relates to Ishtar and castration. I wondered if this serves as an origin for circumcision

[octopusrex]

To the folks discussing Semiramis.. Please, as if to a child, explain to me what does it have to do with THE SHINING?

[feralgoose]

Originally Posted by octopusrex

To the folks discussing Semiramis.. Please, as if to a child, explain to me what does it have to do with THE SHINING?

We're discussing it in relevence to Kubricks 1962 film Lolita which is also relevant. size of light first drew our attention to Ishtar (who semiramus perhaps later became known as) in the first scene of Lolita in the shot where the bottle wobbles. Indeed there are further references to THE SHINING star of Venus (who ishtar is also known as) in the scene (venus de milo. Perhaps size of light could give us all the connections as he has studied the shining in thorough detail.

[feralgoose]

[1331]

Originally Posted by mata

Thank goodness you have brought up this image of Pan 1331! Have you found anymore information about Pan's relationship with Saturn by any chance?



Hi believenothing, yes - you are absolutely correct about this. The Faun is not Pan....

p.s. [Edit] I spent about two years trying to find a comprehensive answer to the question of whether or not The Faun is indeed Pan. But aside from the physical characteristics they have in common - I was unable to establish that they are one and the same. Maybe someone here will be able to do so.

I found this which goes in the same lines as what i already have posted.

Pan/Saturn was (and still is) the pantheistic, monotheistic god of the pagans.

"Pan was at one time absolute nature, the ONE and GREAT ALL..." -

"In astrology, Pan is one aspect and is also equated with Satan and with life...in its base aspects."

"The modern occultist Kenneth Grant compares the Greek Pan, 'All', with the Latin 'Omni', the Sanskrit 'Aum', Egyptian 'Amoun', Hebrew 'Amen', all designations of the Hidden God of the forest, the Abyss, the deep, underground; any region withdrawn and without the range waking consciousness."

"In fact this [15th Tarot] card represents Pan, the very old Nature-God of merriment, sensuality, fertility and life-force. Pan has the appearance of a half-man, half-goat. The goat is related to Capricorn and Saturn."

"Pan (Gr.). The nature-god, whence Pantheism; the god of shepherds, huntsmen, peasants, and dwellers on the land. Homer makes him the son of Hermes and Dryope. His name means ALL. He was the inventor of the Pandaean Pipes; and no nymph who heard their sound could resist the fascination of the great Pan, his grotesque figure notwithstanding. Pan is related to the Mendesian goat, only so far as the latter represents, as a talisman of great occult potency, nature's creative force. The whole of the Hermetic philosophy is based on nature's hidden secrets, and as Baphomet was undeniably a Kabbalistic talisman, so was the name of Pan of great magic efficiency in what Eliphas Levi would call the 'Conjuration of the Elementals'. There is a well-known pious legend which has been current in the Christian world ever since the day of Tiberias, to the effect that the 'great god Pan is dead'. But people are greatly mistaken in this; neither nature nor any of her Forces can ever die. A few of these may be left unused, and being forgotten lie dormant for long centuries. But no sooner are the proper conditions furnished than they awake to act again with tenfold power." (H.P. Blavatsky, Theosophical Glossary) -

The Roman god Saturn, called Chronos by the Greeks, was the king of Atlantis.

The term 'beast out of the sea' represented one aspect of the Sun as the god of the cosmic sea, whom the Mediterranean countries worshipped as Pan/Pallas, Saturn or Chronos, the god of time.

"Almost uniformly ignored is the connection of the primordial man-god with the actual planet Saturn - even though it is precisely the latter that can tell us why the great father appears in both human and celestial form.

- http://watch.pair.com/new-messiah.html

According to wiki you may be correct that the Faun is not Pan.

In ancient Roman religion and myth, Faunus was the horned god of the forest, plains and fields; when he made cattle fertile he was called Inuus. He came to be equated in literature with the Greek god Pan.

With the increasing Hellenization of literate upper-class Roman culture in the 3rd and 2nd centuries BC, the Romans tried to equate their own deities with one of the Greeks', applying in reverse the Greeks' own interpretatio graeca. Faunus was naturally equated with the god Pan, who was a pastoral god of shepherds who was said to reside in Arcadia. Pan had always been depicted with horns and as such many depictions of Faunus also began to display this trait. However, the two deities were also considered separate by many, for instance, the epic poet Virgil, in his Aeneid, made mention of both Faunus and Pan independently.

The original Spanish title refers to the mythological fauns of Roman mythology, while the English, German, and French titles refer specifically to the faun-like Greek character Pan. However, del Toro has stated that the faun in the film is not Pan.

What i find strange is that if Guillermo del Toro didn't want petray Pan why did he give these references? May mean nothing though.

Del Toro has said the film has strong connections in theme to The Devil's Backbone and should be seen as an informal sequel dealing with some of the issues raised there. Some of the other works he drew on for inspiration include Lewis Carroll's "Alice" books, Jorge Luis Borges' Ficciones, Arthur Machen's The Great God Pan and The White People, Lord Dunsany's The Blessing of Pan, Algernon Blackwood's Pan's Garden and Francisco Goya's works. In 2004, del Toro said: "Pan is an original story. Some of my favourite writers (Borges, Blackwood, Machen, Dunsany) have explored the figure of the god Pan and the symbol of the labyrinth. These are things that I find very compelling and I am trying to mix them and play with them."[14] It was also influenced by the illustrations of Arthur Rackham.[15]

And one of his earlier pieces:

Cronos (1992) - Youtube

Cronos (1992) - Youtube

[1331]

Originally Posted by feralgoose

Humbert the Frankenstein monster that Quilty created and that returns and kills his creator?

And of course the flashing of the 'eye of horus' Kubrick was fond of that it seems, think Clockwork Orange

[1331]

Originally Posted by noobcybot

Just popping in to state a few more allusions to the trigger happy Alice in Wonderland story.

In EWS Kidman's character is called Alice.
The DVD cover has a picture of Cruise and Kidman in a mirror (through the looking glass?).

The twins in The Shining wear a dress quite like the archetypal AIW dress and are of course classic twin symbolism ( which is also present in AIW with Tweedle Dum and Tweedle Dee).

Your post made me think about something i read or heard. I don't believe it was on this thread. It was something like: Alice (Nichole) was probably attending to the orgy-party, which was held in one of the Rothschild mansions by the way, in mask. And that in Kubricks cut of EWS this would have been shown, speculation of course. If one plays with that concept than maybe Alice was a monarch programmed wife to Toms character. And that the Sandor Szavost character was probably the handler or something. Something along that line.

Will have to re-watch EWS again. Shame that one can't see 'The Kubrick cut' though.

[feralgoose]

Originally Posted by 1331

Your post made me think about something i read or heard. I don't believe it was on this thread. It was something like: Alice (Nichole) was probably attending to the orgy-party, which was held in one of the Rothschild mansions by the way, in mask. And that in Kubricks cut of EWS this would have been shown, speculation of course. If one plays with that concept than maybe Alice was a monarch programmed wife to Toms character. And that the Sandor Szavost character was probably the handler or something. Something along that line.

Will have to re-watch EWS again. Shame that one can't see 'The Kubrick cut' though.

es 1331 I posted the speculation that perhaps she was present at the orgy in the directors cut, maybe even the woman who sacrificed herself (seemingly) so tom could escape with his life

[1331]

Originally Posted by feralgoose

es 1331 I posted the speculation that perhaps she was present at the orgy in the directors cut, maybe even the woman who sacrificed herself (seemingly) so tom could escape with his life

Ok feralgoose thanks for the clarification, didn't know where i read it. It could well be so.

[feralgoose]

I've given a lot of possible clues in the form of shots from lolita and uncovered irrefutable evidence that Kubrick was well aware of the power of suggestion in a time when the issue was contentious. I'm going to follow up on the link between James Vicary's study and Clockwork Orange, and maybe even probe Kubrick's earlier films for any clue of any older references to subliminal messages

[noobcybot]

Originally Posted by 1331

Your post made me think about something i read or heard. I don't believe it was on this thread. It was something like: Alice (Nichole) was probably attending to the orgy-party, which was held in one of the Rothschild mansions by the way, in mask. And that in Kubricks cut of EWS this would have been shown, speculation of course. If one plays with that concept than maybe Alice was a monarch programmed wife to Toms character. And that the Sandor Szavost character was probably the handler or something. Something along that line.

Will have to re-watch EWS again. Shame that one can't see 'The Kubrick cut' though.

That would make perfect sense. She even mentions she dreams about being involved in orgies. Not dreams perhaps but repressed memories. She even goes so far as to say a military ( naval) officer gets involved. Great insight again 1331. Just how impossible would it be to get a look at his archived material? We have to wonder.

Originally Posted by feralgoose

I've given a lot of possible clues in the form of shots from lolita and uncovered irrefutable evidence that Kubrick was well aware of the power of suggestion in a time when the issue was contentious. I'm going to follow up on the link between James Vicary's study and Clockwork Orange, and maybe even probe Kubrick's earlier films for any clue of any older references to subliminal messages

Cant wait, keep following that white rabbit mate!

[feralgoose]

Wha draws my eye here is the stage lights in the background. I can almost make out the symbol of saturn 1331 posted earlier. In the shot the curtains are moved and lights flickered at numerous times. Perhaps theres something more explicit going on there at one instance? 1331 are you able to go back and take a look at the shot? if not ill see if i can capture it frame by frame so others can see if they can identify it's meaning. It could be a minor thing, just nother saturn reference

[feralgoose]

Here's a possible interpretation into the iconic opening shots of Kubrick's 1964 Cold War Nuclear Scare classic Dr. Strangelove.





Kubricks outstanding special effects of the time capture the refuelling B-52 Bomber mid air. Supplying its fuel is another aircraft bearing a an emblem with a saturn-like symbol underneath a white star. This could be taken as an answer to thequestion of who is fuelling the US war machine, and the threat of the bomb.

[the_ohmbudsman]

Originally Posted by noobcybot

That would make perfect sense. She even mentions she dreams about being involved in orgies. Not dreams perhaps but repressed memories. She even goes so far as to say a military ( naval) officer gets involved. Great insight again 1331. Just how impossible would it be to get a look at his archived material? We have to wonder.



Cant wait, keep following that white rabbit mate!

In EWS isn't it obvious that Nicole was at the orgy! I think that the real "slime ball"(Sandor Szavost) that was chatting her up at the party may have been the guy in the red costume? This character in the film comes over extremely well as someone who can worm is way in with a young woman, but did he already know her before the party?

That aside the vision Tom Cruise keeps having of her being seduced what looks like a Navy Officer - could be his own paranoia, that he thinks she's with some other guy, which is what keeps him after sex with another woman. But there is some dialogue between Tom and Nicola when they come back from the party and are smoking a joint in bed, and I don't recall exactly what she said to him?

Also at the end when Tom returns to their appartment and she is asleep and his mask that went missing, is on the pillow next to her. Which suggests that this is telling him/us, that she was there at the orgy most definately. It also suggests she could have been one of them for a long time and may have helped set him up. The plot reminds me a bit of Rosemary's Baby and another one Afterhours.

[priya]

Maybe he ran out of ideas.

[feralgoose]

Originally Posted by the_ohmbudsman

In EWS isn't it obvious that Nicole was at the orgy! I think that the real "slime ball" that was chatting her up at the party may have been the guy in the red costume? This character in the film comes over extremely well as someone who can worm is way in with a young woman, but did he already know her before the party?

That aside the vision Tom Cruise keeps having of her being seduced what looks like a Navy Officer - could be his own paranoia, that he thinks she's with some other guy, which is what keeps him after sex with another woman. But there is some dialogue between Tom and Nicola when they come back from the party and are smoking a joint in bed, and I don't recall exactly what she said to him?

Also at the end when Tom returns to their appartment and she is asleep and his mask that went missing is on the pillow next to her. Which suggests that this is telling him/us, that she was there at the orgy most definately. It also suggests she could have been one of them for a long time and may have helped set him up. The plot reminds me a bit of Rosemary's Baby and another one Afterhours.

yep you're on the ball ohmbudsman. Interesting you relate Rosemary's Baby as Polanski is very much related to all this. Good friend of Kubrick and Jack Nicholson who I mentioned early on has made a career out of demonic roles (nicole kidman as well = EWS, Bewitched, practical magic)

Also we have Roman Polanski's 9th Gate released in 1999 with EWS, exploring similiar themes of satanic ritual and sacrifice starring johnny depp frank langELla and emanuELle Seigler

[1331]

Originally Posted by feralgoose

Wha draws my eye here is the stage lights in the background. I can almost make out the symbol of saturn 1331 posted earlier. In the shot the curtains are moved and lights flickered at numerous times. Perhaps theres something more explicit going on there at one instance? 1331 are you able to go back and take a look at the shot? if not ill see if i can capture it frame by frame so others can see if they can identify it's meaning. It could be a minor thing, just nother saturn reference

Can't see it i'm afraid. However i saw this.



A banner(?) Camp Climax pointing at frame with butterflies (Monarch reference?). In the novel i believe it was called Camp Q.

[the_ohmbudsman]

Originally Posted by feralgoose

Here's a possible interpretation into the iconic opening shots of Kubrick's 1964 Cold War Nuclear Scare classic Dr. Strangelove.

Kubricks outstanding special effects of the time capture the refuelling B-52 Bomber mid air. Supplying its fuel is another aircraft bearing a an emblem with a saturn-like symbol underneath a white star. This could be taken as an answer to thequestion of who is fuelling the US war machine, and the threat of the bomb.

I saw Dr Strangelove last week on TV and the aircraft look real even today - I wonder if they were real? As opposed to 2001 a Space Odyssey the spacecraft now look like models not real.

2001 Space Odyssey - Blue Danube (fullhd) - YouTube

2001 Space Odyssey - Blue Danube (fullhd) - YouTube

Wasn't Dr Strangelove laughing at the military and the madness of them all.