Jesus and the 613 Laws of Moses.

[luciferhorus]

Jesus and the 613 Laws of Moses.

Lucifer 2012


Since in some of the threads here, I have found that "some" Christians when challenged by the savagery and ridiculousness of the Mosaic Law, often claim that the Law does not apply to them.

Christianity has been a religion which has from the 4th to the 16th centuries had legal powers throughout Europe to punish Europeans for disobeying Biblical Law; thus if a Christian had claimed that the Law did not apply to them, this belief could have been considered blasppemous and heretical, and their belief would have not been sufficient to stop them being punished under the law.

In Christian Europe for the 12 centuries these fanatics ruled , they did not enforce "all" of the Law, but certainly executions for blasphemy and heresy, for example, were enforced, and this all approved of by the Bible god, as are the burning of those who reject Christ.

The Christian attempt to impose their Bronze Age judicial system on the world, seems to have failed and they are losing ground to the Muslms; and Islam of course is a religion whose laws are implanted in the judical system of many nations, where one can still be punished for a variety of religious offences, and for blasphemym, heresy and for propagating other religions or ant-religion, and for harmless sexual acts between consenting adults. Perhaps the Christians of the West should emigrate to such Islamic nations whose legal system is much closer to Biblical Law than the secular legal systems of the West.

Lux

_____________

Anyway, I present here, a piece of Christian propaganda, arguing that the primitive Mosaic Law still applies "till heaven and earth pass away;" i.e., forever.

The article below is from: http://www.albatrus.org/english/theo..._fulfilled.htm

_____________

Till all be Fulfilled
aymon de albatrus



"17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." (Mat 5:17-18)

"And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one pronunciation mark of the law to fail." (Luk 16:17)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is believed by many that Christ came to do away with the Law of God. The commandments they say were nailed to the cross. They teach that the commandments are a burden and some even go as far as saying that the law is evil. On the other hand many say that the commandments are still valid and we are to keep them.

Even an initial hurried survey of the 10 Commandments clearly shows that the last six are definitely even upheld by our secular ungodly legal system. Indeed, for example, who can honestly say that the sixth commandment "Thou shalt not murder" is done away with? These six commandments are clearly still with us, thus even a cursory scrutiny of these six commandments proves that the Law (summarised in these 10 C) is still en force, and certainly it will be active till there is someone alive in the flesh.

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. Our Saviour was just entering on His work. It was important for Him to state what He came to do. In setting Himself up as a teacher in opposition to the Scribes and Pharisees, He may be charged with intention to destroy the Law, and abolish the customs and traditions of the nation. Therefore He told them that He did not come for that, but really to fulfil or accomplish what was in the Law and the Prophets about Him. The Law are the five books of Moses, and the Prophets are the books, which the prophets wrote. These two divisions here are meant to comprehend the Old Testament and Jesus says that he did not come to do away or destroy its authority, but He referred to It continually to validate His actions, and so did His Apostles after His death, fully into the NT.

I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. He came to complete the design; to fill up what was predicted, to accomplish what God intended. The word, fulfill, also, means sometimes to teach or inculcate, (Col 1:25). The Law contained many sacrifices and rites which were designed to shadow forth the Messiah, (Heb 9:1-28). These were fulfilled when He came and offered Himself as the perfect sacrifice to God, for all times, in favour of His people for whom he ever lives to intercede now in Heaven. (Heb 7:25)

Till heaven and earth pass. This expression denotes that the law never should be destroyed till it should be all fulfilled. It is the same as saying, everything else may change—the very earth and heaven may pass away—but the law of God shall not be destroyed, till its whole design shall be accomplished. Have earth and Heaven passed away? Methinks, not yet.

one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. The expression, "one jot or tittle," is proverbial, and means that not even the smallest part of the Law can be destroyed. The Jews were exceedingly cautious in writing these letters, and considered the smallest change or omission a reason for destroying the whole manuscript when they were transcribing the Old Testament. Jesus here uses this very well known expression to emphasis the point that the Law is perfect and cannot be destroyed: "The law of the LORD [is] perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD [is] sure, making wise the simple." (Psa 19:7)

The law is the certain and unchangeable will of God concerning reasonable creatures, and it shall never be altered in the least tittle, nor ever be abolished. With this our beloved Lord is saying that we can be sure He did not come into the world upon such errand.

The Law in the Pentateuch was commonly divided into moral, ceremonial, and judicial laws:

The moral laws are such as grow out of the nature of things, which cannot, therefore, be changed—such as the duty of loving God and his creatures. These cannot be abolished as it can never be made right to hate God, or to hate our fellow-men. Of this kind are the ten commandments; and these our Saviour has neither abolished nor superseded. This is a moral law, and cannot be changed. Those laws requiring love and obedience to God, and love to men, could not be changed, and Christ Jesus did not do that, but confirmed the moral law as unchanged. (Mat 19:19; 22:37-39 Luk 10:27; Rom 13:9)

The ceremonial laws are such as are appointed to meet certain states of society, or to regulate the religious rites and ceremonies of a people. These can be changed when circumstances are fulfilled. A general may command his soldiers to appear sometimes in a red coat, and sometimes in blue, or in yellow; this would be a ceremonial law. The ceremonial law was fulfilled by the sacrifice of Christ, on the cross: the shadow was absorbed in the substance, and ceased to be binding in that form. The ceremonial laws and animal sacrifices for atoning sins ceased to have any use on earth when Jesus the God/man paid on the cross for an atonement of infinite value for His people and He ever lives to intercede for them: "Why he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come to God by him, seeing he ever lives to make intercession for them." (Heb 7:25) Thus, in effect the ceremonial law still exists, but in Heaven performed by Christ Himself.

The judicial laws, or those regulating courts of justice, contained in the Old Testament. The judicial law regulated the courts of justice of the Jews and adapted to their own civil society. These were the application of the moral laws, e.g. summarised in the 10 commandments, as they should be in our society. The judicial law are the practical implementation of the moral laws and therefore not done away with, for the peaceful order of society. For example, if God commands the death penalty for murder, in His moral laws, that should be still applied. If the magistrates do not do that, they are negligent and rebellious setting themselves up over and against God, the Almighty Sovereign.

Surely we all agree that Heaven and earth are still here, obviously, so we can be pretty sure that the Law is intact, if we are to believe the words of our Master Jesus Christ: "And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one pronunciation mark of the law to fail." (Luk 16:17)

If He had came to do away with His Father’s commandments why did He gave this answer to one who asked Him directly what one had to do to gain eternal life: "….. keep the commandments" (Mat 19:17,18) Surely if He had come to destroy the Law there was the perfect opportunity to say: "all you have to do is believe in Me without considering the Commandments".

Jesus did not say anything about doing away with the commandments in fact He confirmed them and expanded them: "Whoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." (Mat 5:19-21)

Christ knew very well of this type of twisting the Law and warned those who were doing away with the Law of God were in fact worshipping Him in vain: "However, in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." (Mar 7:7-9)

Taking the words of Jesus in (Mat 5:18), can anyone honestly say that the Law has been taken away? Surely, NO way? The Law is certainly still valid and applicable to all, from the beginning till the end of time, without a tittle changing. The difference in the NT is that the sacrifice of Christ, has been inserted by God between the believers (His elect) and the Law and Himself. This way His Law remains intact, perfectly satisfied by Grace through the Holy Blood of Christ Jesus, shed for His own, who are singing a new song, saying, "And they sung a new song, saying, You are worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for you were slain, and have redeemed us to God by your blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;" (Rev 5:9)

The Law is applicable to ALL, but for the believers His Grace is interposed between their sins and God, thus they are justified in front of God for He "sees" the justified sinner through the blood of Jesus, that is Grace for them. Moreover, Jesus continually intercedes for their sins through His Holy Blood shed once for all (Heb 7:25). The Law is now written in the hearts of the believers (Eze 36:25,26,27) and they now have a new nature, which enables them to satisfy Jesus' command: "If ye love me, keep my commandments." (Joh 14:15)

Moreover: "knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers," (1 Timothy 1:9) demonstrated clearly that the Law is in full activity, especially for the non believers, for they are not covered by the precious Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The non-believers, the pagan, the heathen do not seek God, at all, and the Law is applied directly to them and It is satisfied in their condemnation to Hell. "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." (John 3:36 )

Here is then the scriptural difference between the Law and Grace:

The Law tries to restrain the passions of the flesh,

Grace puts to death on the cross what is carnal and says: "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." (Gal 2:20)

The Law is absolutely necessary for the Justice of God and for His Grace. To fulfil His Justice; otherwise on what basis God would be able to condemn evil, Him being Righteous. And on what basis can He grant Grace since without Law there is no sin (Rom 5:13), in that case Grace would be meaningless. Praise God in the highest for His mercy, for we believers are not under the direct curse of the Law (still active) but we are shielded and fully Justified by Jesus Christ who is our Grace and our Peace with God: "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ". (Rom 5:1) A huge Amen to that, AMEN.

In answer to the first phrase of this article, the Law is NOT evil, but good: "Why the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." (Rom 7:12), for it is our schoolmaster to take us to salvation in Jesus Christ: "Why the law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith." (Gal 3:24)

Yes we are to keep the Law, but NOT in the sense that by keeping It we are saved, for no one is good enough to keep It and if we fail in one commandment we have failed in all. "For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." (Jam 2:10) We are to keep It (assisted by the Holy Ghost) in the sense of doing good works that our Lord has prepared for us before the beginning of time: "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them." (Eph 2:10)

We conclude then that the Law has not passed away, for it is part and parcel of the eternal working of God and that Jesus came to fulfil the requirements of the Law for the benefit of His Own and by which we are: Called, Justified and Sanctified and Saved: "29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 Moreover whom he did predestined, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. 31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?" (Rom 8:29-31)



The Lord of Grace is glorified in our hearts, forever and ever, and ever, ….. whereby we cry, Abba, Father." (Rom 8:15)



Blah, blah, blah.

Savages

[exu156]

Fascinating article. Its a paradox, for many Christians it seems like they are fully aware of the barbarity of the OT and want to run from it, For example:

http://www.scripturessay.com/article.php?cat&id=615

But yet other Christians fully embrace it:

http://www.albatrus.org/english/theo..._fulfilled.htm

This is a problem with books written thousands of years ago. The clarity is lost and the editing which came after only added to the confusion.

Very interesting thread.

It would be great to have a serious debate about this with Christians (without the usual mud-slinging) and see how they interpret these matters.

But please can we all for once have a serious, decent debate without the insults and usual madness? I am genuinely very interested in this topic and would love a range of opinions. If you are a Christian and your interpretations get challenged please don't be offended. And if you are not a Christian and your interpretations get challenged please don't be offended. Discuss without attachment. Discover without conditions.

[blackyblue]

Originally Posted by luciferhorus

Jesus and the 613 Laws of Moses.

Lucifer 2012


Since in some of the threads here, I have found that "some" Christians when challenged by the savagery and ridiculousness of the Mosaic Law, often claim that the Law does not apply to them.

Christianity has been a religion which has from the 4th to the 16th centuries had legal powers throughout Europe to punish Europeans for disobeying Biblical Law; thus if a Christian had claimed that the Law did not apply to them, this belief could have been considered blasppemous and heretical, and their belief would have not been sufficient to stop them being punished under the law.

In Christian Europe for the 12 centuries these fanatics ruled , they did not enforce "all" of the Law, but certainly executions for blasphemy and heresy, for example, were enforced, and this all approved of by the Bible god, as are the burning of those who reject Christ.

The Christian attempt to impose their Bronze Age judicial system on the world, seems to have failed and they are losing ground to the Muslms; and Islam of course is a religion whose laws are implanted in the judical system of many nations, where one can still be punished for a variety of religious offences, and for blasphemym, heresy and for propagating other religions or ant-religion, and for harmless sexual acts between consenting adults. Perhaps the Christians of the West should emigrate to such Islamic nations whose legal system is much closer to Biblical Law than the secular legal systems of the West.

Lux

_____________

Anyway, I present here, a piece of Christian propaganda, arguing that the primitive Mosaic Law still applies "till heaven and earth pass away;" i.e., forever.

The article below is from: http://www.albatrus.org/english/theo..._fulfilled.htm

_____________

Till all be Fulfilled
aymon de albatrus



"17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." (Mat 5:17-18)

"And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one pronunciation mark of the law to fail." (Luk 16:17)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is believed by many that Christ came to do away with the Law of God. The commandments they say were nailed to the cross. They teach that the commandments are a burden and some even go as far as saying that the law is evil. On the other hand many say that the commandments are still valid and we are to keep them.

Even an initial hurried survey of the 10 Commandments clearly shows that the last six are definitely even upheld by our secular ungodly legal system. Indeed, for example, who can honestly say that the sixth commandment "Thou shalt not murder" is done away with? These six commandments are clearly still with us, thus even a cursory scrutiny of these six commandments proves that the Law (summarised in these 10 C) is still en force, and certainly it will be active till there is someone alive in the flesh.

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. Our Saviour was just entering on His work. It was important for Him to state what He came to do. In setting Himself up as a teacher in opposition to the Scribes and Pharisees, He may be charged with intention to destroy the Law, and abolish the customs and traditions of the nation. Therefore He told them that He did not come for that, but really to fulfil or accomplish what was in the Law and the Prophets about Him. The Law are the five books of Moses, and the Prophets are the books, which the prophets wrote. These two divisions here are meant to comprehend the Old Testament and Jesus says that he did not come to do away or destroy its authority, but He referred to It continually to validate His actions, and so did His Apostles after His death, fully into the NT.

I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. He came to complete the design; to fill up what was predicted, to accomplish what God intended. The word, fulfill, also, means sometimes to teach or inculcate, (Col 1:25). The Law contained many sacrifices and rites which were designed to shadow forth the Messiah, (Heb 9:1-28). These were fulfilled when He came and offered Himself as the perfect sacrifice to God, for all times, in favour of His people for whom he ever lives to intercede now in Heaven. (Heb 7:25)

Till heaven and earth pass. This expression denotes that the law never should be destroyed till it should be all fulfilled. It is the same as saying, everything else may change—the very earth and heaven may pass away—but the law of God shall not be destroyed, till its whole design shall be accomplished. Have earth and Heaven passed away? Methinks, not yet.

one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. The expression, "one jot or tittle," is proverbial, and means that not even the smallest part of the Law can be destroyed. The Jews were exceedingly cautious in writing these letters, and considered the smallest change or omission a reason for destroying the whole manuscript when they were transcribing the Old Testament. Jesus here uses this very well known expression to emphasis the point that the Law is perfect and cannot be destroyed: "The law of the LORD [is] perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD [is] sure, making wise the simple." (Psa 19:7)

The law is the certain and unchangeable will of God concerning reasonable creatures, and it shall never be altered in the least tittle, nor ever be abolished. With this our beloved Lord is saying that we can be sure He did not come into the world upon such errand.

The Law in the Pentateuch was commonly divided into moral, ceremonial, and judicial laws:

The moral laws are such as grow out of the nature of things, which cannot, therefore, be changed—such as the duty of loving God and his creatures. These cannot be abolished as it can never be made right to hate God, or to hate our fellow-men. Of this kind are the ten commandments; and these our Saviour has neither abolished nor superseded. This is a moral law, and cannot be changed. Those laws requiring love and obedience to God, and love to men, could not be changed, and Christ Jesus did not do that, but confirmed the moral law as unchanged. (Mat 19:19; 22:37-39 Luk 10:27; Rom 13:9)

The ceremonial laws are such as are appointed to meet certain states of society, or to regulate the religious rites and ceremonies of a people. These can be changed when circumstances are fulfilled. A general may command his soldiers to appear sometimes in a red coat, and sometimes in blue, or in yellow; this would be a ceremonial law. The ceremonial law was fulfilled by the sacrifice of Christ, on the cross: the shadow was absorbed in the substance, and ceased to be binding in that form. The ceremonial laws and animal sacrifices for atoning sins ceased to have any use on earth when Jesus the God/man paid on the cross for an atonement of infinite value for His people and He ever lives to intercede for them: "Why he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come to God by him, seeing he ever lives to make intercession for them." (Heb 7:25) Thus, in effect the ceremonial law still exists, but in Heaven performed by Christ Himself.

The judicial laws, or those regulating courts of justice, contained in the Old Testament. The judicial law regulated the courts of justice of the Jews and adapted to their own civil society. These were the application of the moral laws, e.g. summarised in the 10 commandments, as they should be in our society. The judicial law are the practical implementation of the moral laws and therefore not done away with, for the peaceful order of society. For example, if God commands the death penalty for murder, in His moral laws, that should be still applied. If the magistrates do not do that, they are negligent and rebellious setting themselves up over and against God, the Almighty Sovereign.

Surely we all agree that Heaven and earth are still here, obviously, so we can be pretty sure that the Law is intact, if we are to believe the words of our Master Jesus Christ: "And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one pronunciation mark of the law to fail." (Luk 16:17)

If He had came to do away with His Father’s commandments why did He gave this answer to one who asked Him directly what one had to do to gain eternal life: "….. keep the commandments" (Mat 19:17,18) Surely if He had come to destroy the Law there was the perfect opportunity to say: "all you have to do is believe in Me without considering the Commandments".

Jesus did not say anything about doing away with the commandments in fact He confirmed them and expanded them: "Whoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." (Mat 5:19-21)

Christ knew very well of this type of twisting the Law and warned those who were doing away with the Law of God were in fact worshipping Him in vain: "However, in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." (Mar 7:7-9)

Taking the words of Jesus in (Mat 5:18), can anyone honestly say that the Law has been taken away? Surely, NO way? The Law is certainly still valid and applicable to all, from the beginning till the end of time, without a tittle changing. The difference in the NT is that the sacrifice of Christ, has been inserted by God between the believers (His elect) and the Law and Himself. This way His Law remains intact, perfectly satisfied by Grace through the Holy Blood of Christ Jesus, shed for His own, who are singing a new song, saying, "And they sung a new song, saying, You are worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for you were slain, and have redeemed us to God by your blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;" (Rev 5:9)

The Law is applicable to ALL, but for the believers His Grace is interposed between their sins and God, thus they are justified in front of God for He "sees" the justified sinner through the blood of Jesus, that is Grace for them. Moreover, Jesus continually intercedes for their sins through His Holy Blood shed once for all (Heb 7:25). The Law is now written in the hearts of the believers (Eze 36:25,26,27) and they now have a new nature, which enables them to satisfy Jesus' command: "If ye love me, keep my commandments." (Joh 14:15)

Moreover: "knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers," (1 Timothy 1:9) demonstrated clearly that the Law is in full activity, especially for the non believers, for they are not covered by the precious Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The non-believers, the pagan, the heathen do not seek God, at all, and the Law is applied directly to them and It is satisfied in their condemnation to Hell. "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." (John 3:36 )

Here is then the scriptural difference between the Law and Grace:

The Law tries to restrain the passions of the flesh,

Grace puts to death on the cross what is carnal and says: "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." (Gal 2:20)

The Law is absolutely necessary for the Justice of God and for His Grace. To fulfil His Justice; otherwise on what basis God would be able to condemn evil, Him being Righteous. And on what basis can He grant Grace since without Law there is no sin (Rom 5:13), in that case Grace would be meaningless. Praise God in the highest for His mercy, for we believers are not under the direct curse of the Law (still active) but we are shielded and fully Justified by Jesus Christ who is our Grace and our Peace with God: "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ". (Rom 5:1) A huge Amen to that, AMEN.

In answer to the first phrase of this article, the Law is NOT evil, but good: "Why the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." (Rom 7:12), for it is our schoolmaster to take us to salvation in Jesus Christ: "Why the law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith." (Gal 3:24)

Yes we are to keep the Law, but NOT in the sense that by keeping It we are saved, for no one is good enough to keep It and if we fail in one commandment we have failed in all. "For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." (Jam 2:10) We are to keep It (assisted by the Holy Ghost) in the sense of doing good works that our Lord has prepared for us before the beginning of time: "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them." (Eph 2:10)

We conclude then that the Law has not passed away, for it is part and parcel of the eternal working of God and that Jesus came to fulfil the requirements of the Law for the benefit of His Own and by which we are: Called, Justified and Sanctified and Saved: "29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 Moreover whom he did predestined, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. 31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?" (Rom 8:29-31)



The Lord of Grace is glorified in our hearts, forever and ever, and ever, ….. whereby we cry, Abba, Father." (Rom 8:15)



Blah, blah, blah.

Savages

But those that follow it are not christians, they are Satanists that worship the false Elohiyms of the OT, Like you do Lucifer

And you will burn in hell, because 'your' GOD said so

[blackyblue]

Originally Posted by exu156

Fascinating article. Its a paradox, for many Christians it seems like they are fully aware of the barbarity of the OT and want to run from it, For example:

http://www.scripturessay.com/article.php?cat&id=615

But yet other Christians fully embrace it:

Like what was pointed out before by Grakkus on another thread, you have difficulty comprehending somethings EXU, it does not make you a bad person...I also sometimes poop in the pie

But not everyone calls themselve a Satanist is a Satanist..Like you, you are not a satanist in my definition of the word Satanist.

You are a good person that could do well to question things further, and also question the motives of Lucifer

Same with christians

[luciferhorus]

I thought I would just repost this here, rather than getting lost in the endless rants on another thread, as it relates to this topic



On Christian Hypocrisy and the Multi-billion Dollar "Salvation in Jesus" Business.

Lucifer



It is a rather strange thing this Bible religion. What I think happened historically is that when the Christians were in power for many centuries, they did have the power to enforce many aspects of Biblical Law; as you know, many were tortured and murdered for blasphemy and heresy for example, and for rejecting thier evil god, Christ, and that is approved of in the Bible; however since the Reformation of the 16th century to the 21st century, what we can see is the rise of the multi-billion dollar Jesus industry. Here the Christians, generally instead of seeking the "enforcement" of certain Biblical Laws through having power over governments, have simply started independent religion businesses (churches); however since these charlatans are selling a product (salvation), they have to make their product easy to sell; so there are generally no punishments for breaking the Biblical Law, as long as one comes to church and purchases salvation.

Thus it is all essentially about "believing" in Jesus.



Hypocrites

A Marxist, for example, we could say is a person who adheres to the poltiical philosophy of Marx, but a Christian is not usually a person who actually believes all the laws of the Bible god and his incarnation on earth; they are like a person who claims to be a Marxist, but who rejects the political ideology of Marx; much like many Chinese Communist Party members who are evangelical Capitalists.

A Christian who followed the teachings and example of Jesus, would be a homeles (he had nowhere to lay his head), unemployed (he asked his followers to give up thier professions), shoeless, wandering exorcist, fake healer and preacher who had given all their money to the poor and who refused to carry money or have more than one robe; thus they would not be on the Internet, and unable to afford the price of salvation in a Jesus business Temple. They would also be able to do miracles (such as moving mountains), drink deadly poison and follow the letter of the Law.

It seems to be much easier to sell salvation in the name of a dead religious fanatic than to actually follow his vile and ridiculous teachings and laws.

So we have to deal with the victims of this religion here.

Lux

[blackyblue]

Originally Posted by luciferhorus

I thought I would just repost this here, rather than getting lost in the endless rants on another thread, as it relates to this topic



On Christian Hypocrisy and the Multi-billion Dollar "Salvation in Jesus" Business.

Guess who runs the business Lucifer

The same people exploit children at christmas and pump the prices up




Lots of REAL christians dont celebrate christmas...did you know this Lucifer?


BUT I BET YOU DO!! you love the illuminations, admit it

[blackyblue]

Originally Posted by luciferhorus

I thought I would just repost this here, rather than getting lost in the endless rants on another thread, as it relates to this topic



On Christian Hypocrisy and the Multi-billion Dollar "Salvation in Jesus" Business.

Lucifer



It is a rather strange thing this Bible religion. What I think happened historically is that when the Christians were in power for many centuries, they did have the power to enforce many aspects of Biblical Law; as you know, many were tortured and murdered for blasphemy and heresy for example, and for rejecting thier evil god, Christ, and that is approved of in the Bible; however since the Reformation of the 16th century to the 21st century, what we can see is the rise of the multi-billion dollar Jesus industry. Here the Christians, generally instead of seeking the "enforcement" of certain Biblical Laws through having power over governments, have simply started independent religion businesses (churches); however since these charlatans are selling a product (salvation), they have to make their product easy to sell; so there are generally no punishments for breaking the Biblical Law, as long as one comes to church and purchases salvation.

Thus it is all essentially about "believing" in Jesus.



Hypocrites

A Marxist, for example, we could say is a person who adheres to the poltiical philosophy of Marx, but a Christian is not usually a person who actually believes all the laws of the Bible god and his incarnation on earth; they are like a person who claims to be a Marxist, but who rejects the political ideology of Marx; much like many Chinese Communist Party members who are evangelical Capitalists.

A Christian who followed the teachings and example of Jesus, would be a homeles (he had nowhere to lay his head), unemployed (he asked his followers to give up thier professions), shoeless, wandering exorcist, fake healer and preacher who had given all their money to the poor and who refused to carry money or have more than one robe; thus they would not be on the Internet, and unable to afford the price of salvation in a Jesus business Temple. They would also be able to do miracles (such as moving mountains), drink deadly poison and follow the letter of the Law.

It seems to be much easier to sell salvation in the name of a dead religious fanatic than to actually follow his vile and ridiculous teachings and laws.

So we have to deal with the victims of this religion here.

Lux

I do agree with you on the GOD channel stuff Lucifer.

It americanised.

However when i see that commercialism and diabolical, funny i dont think on them as Christians, i think on them as Satanists..

Do you know how easy it is to lie about your name Lucifer?

People are judged on their actions in court, not their names




Greedy people will sell anything LUC, im dissapointed you dont realise this

[luciferhorus]

Originally Posted by blackyblue

I

Greedy people will sell anything LUC, ...

Oh well that is what "Religious Freedom" is all about.



It is the Freedom for any charlatan to start a religion business and claim to heal the sick and perform exorcisms, miracles and signs, just as the fictional Jesus commanded them to do.



Religion is more profitable than selling drugs, or indeed anything else, since they have no actual product to sell; they are just selling "eternal salvation," and exploting the psychologically vulnerable, the lonely, the uneducated, the sick, the metally ill and the elderly, etc.

They are essentially selling "eternal marriage" and "eternal love" with an imaginary friend in the afterlife.

Poor wretched creatures, terrible and dreadful shall be the judgement on all Christian hypnotists and propagandists who seek to lead the children of the gods astray. Hell shall be thier only reward.

My love for humankind is real on the other hand; I am no phantom of the imagination; my love on earth is unimaginably greater than any phantom in the sky.

Christians; I curse them all.

Lucifer.

Light of the World.

Narrow is the path to eternal love and few are they who find it; wide is the path to the hell of religious fanaticsm and many are they who walk upon it.

Terrible and Dreadful and Wrathful shall be the Day of Judgement.

[tonyvandam]

I bump THIS thread up so I can read it again later. Good posts thus far.

[logos880]

Originally Posted by exu156

Fascinating article. Its a paradox, for many Christians it seems like they are fully aware of the barbarity of the OT and want to run from it, For example:

http://www.scripturessay.com/article.php?cat&id=615

But yet other Christians fully embrace it:

http://www.albatrus.org/english/theo..._fulfilled.htm

This is a problem with books written thousands of years ago. The clarity is lost and the editing which came after only added to the confusion.

Very interesting thread.

It would be great to have a serious debate about this with Christians (without the usual mud-slinging) and see how they interpret these matters.

But please can we all for once have a serious, decent debate without the insults and usual madness? I am genuinely very interested in this topic and would love a range of opinions. If you are a Christian and your interpretations get challenged please don't be offended. And if you are not a Christian and your interpretations get challenged please don't be offended. Discuss without attachment. Discover without conditions.

I have already addressed these matters entirely, here:

mosaic law: function and purpose in the new testament

http://forum.davidicke.com/showthread.php?t=202462

excerpt:

One of the profound emphases of the New Testament, especially the epistles of Paul, is that Christians are no longer under the rule of the Mosaic law. This truth is stated in no uncertain terms and in various ways (see Rom. 6:14; 7:1-14; Gal. 3:10-13, 24-25; 4:21; 5:1, 13; 2 Cor. 3:7-18), but in spite of this, there have always been those who insist that the Mosaic Law, at least the Ten Commandments, are still in force for the Christian. In regard to the relation of Christian ethics to the Mosaic Law, Luck writes:

There are Christian teachers of repute who consider the Mosaic law to be the present-day rule of life for the Christian.

It seems exceedingly strange that Bible-believing Christians should advocate such a view, when the New Testament makes it abundantly clear that the believer in Christ is not any longer under the Mosaic law in its entirety… Indeed after having been delivered from the law, to deliberately place ourselves once again under its [control] is said to be “falling from grace.”

the OP's article is completely invalid, and displays complete ignorance regarding the christian's state of grace under the new testament.

[radziox]

Originally Posted by logos880

I have already addressed these matters entirely, here:

mosaic law: function and purpose in the new testament

http://forum.davidicke.com/showthread.php?t=202462

excerpt:

the OP's article is completely invalid, and displays complete ignorance regarding the christian's state of grace under the new testament.

I was wondering what took you so long to copy/paste that link . Besides the OP is valid, as it was never debunked in the first place. You cannot prove that Old Testament still applies to Christians, as it wasn't disproven in the first place. Until you will provide a quote in the bible that says directly that OT is invalid and not to be followed, it doesn't matter what kind of assumptions you will post. Your point will be forever invalid, unless you will finally provide that quote.

[logos880]

Originally Posted by radziox

I was wondering what took you so long to copy/paste that link . Besides the OP is valid, as it was never debunked in the first place. You cannot prove that Old Testament still applies to Christians, as it wasn't disproven in the first place. Until you will provide a quote in the bible that says directly that OT is invalid and not to be followed, it doesn't matter what kind of assumptions you will post. Your point will be forever invalid, unless you will finally provide that quote.

even in the quote I just posted there are 10 or so bible verse references.

you on the other hand have posted 0 verses in support of your assertion.

[radziox]

Originally Posted by logos880

even in the quote I just posted there are 10 or so bible verse references.

you on the other hand have posted 0 verses in support of your assertion.

Again, those were ASSUMPTIONS that you provided, based on sheer interpretation of the writer. NOWHERE did Jesus said that he wants the OT to be not followed anymore. Those are Christians that created that rule ( even though most of them still stick to it only as much as they see fit ) out of ignorance and denial. If your dear Jesus really wanted you to abandon OT, he would have said so.

[logos880]

Originally Posted by radziox

Again, those were ASSUMPTIONS that you provided, based on sheer interpretation of the writer. NOWHERE did Jesus said that he wants the OT to be not followed anymore. Those are Christians that created that rule ( even though most of them still stick to it only as much as they see fit ) out of ignorance and denial. If your dear Jesus really wanted you to abandon OT, he would have said so.

you haven't disproven the scripture references, and you haven't provided any evidence to support your assertion.

[luciferhorus]

Originally Posted by radziox

Again, those were ASSUMPTIONS that you provided, based on sheer interpretation of the writer. NOWHERE did Jesus said that he wants the OT to be not followed anymore. Those are Christians that created that rule ( even though most of them still stick to it only as much as they see fit ) out of ignorance and denial. If your dear Jesus really wanted you to abandon OT, he would have said so.

Part of the Problem here is that with Logos880 we are dealing with the Christian equivalent of a Neo Nazi who is in denial of the Nazi genocides.

It seems that Logos is a Christian who implies that he rejects all Biblical Law; I doubt this to be the case as most Christians have their own particular cherry picked version of the Law; never the less he believes that the Law does not apply to him.

This is like a Neo-Nazi who promotes Nazism and states that he does not agree with all the Nazi Laws; this would make very little difference if a Nazi government ever gained control of a nation to other Nazis.

Simialry we a have a long history of genocidal Christian government where aspects of the Biblical Law become actual Law and just like in modern European Law, if you do not agree with the law, you can still be prosecuted; similarly with the almost 12 centuries and more where the Christians ruled in Europe; an idiot like Logos880 might claim "I don't believe in the Biblical Law" but he could sitll be executed a heretic under such laws and burned at the stake for being a person who claims that Jesus did not advocate Christian Law.

Consider: "A Manifesto of Christian Government" on: http://www.albatrus.org/english/gove...government.htm

It is quite clear that this manifesto calls for the 10 commandments to become law; we have already had this kind of government for centuries and this would mean executions for blasphemy, heresy, adultery and numerous other "religious" laws such as executions for homosexuals.



This of course means that little witchy girls like you (My girlfriend is also an evangelical Wiccanist by the way) and heretics like me could be burned at the stake again.

This is why Christians like Logos880 are just Neonazis who are in denial that their system of government and Law is essentially genocidal, malevolent, subhuman and flawed. Further Logos880 is not merely an imbecile; he is a totally vile and wretched subhuman religious fanatic with around 10,000 posts on this forum; perhaps one day it will be 20,000, and I am perfectly OK about that; if all the Christians in the world are as imbecilic and irrational as Logos880, then I wish they would post more on the Internet to embarras themselves in public and to show the world what a bunch of moronic subhumans they really are.

It is generally pointless to try to argue rationally with irrational fools; but it is important to humilate them in front of others. A teacher must always scold the arrogant and those who will never stop talking nonsense; even if the fool cannot change; it is important for the other children in class that the fool be rebuked from time to time.


Lux

[radziox]

Originally Posted by logos880

you haven't disproven the scripture references, and you haven't provided any evidence to support your assertion.

There is no need. Debunking assumptions is a mere waste of time. I cannot prove that OT does not apply anymore, as long as it isn't debunked in the first place. I would be just wasting my time proving something that hasn't been disproven in the first place, which would be an equivalent of doing nothing.

[logos880]

Originally Posted by luciferhorus

Part of the Problem here is that with Logos880 we are dealing with the Christian equivalent of a Neo Nazi who is in denial of the Nazi genocides.

It seems that Logos is a Christian who implies that he rejects all Biblical Law; I doubt this to be the case as most Christians have their own particular cherry picked version of the Law; never the less he believes that the Law does not apply to him.

This is like a Neo-Nazi who promotes Nazism and states that he does not agree with all the Nazi Laws; this would make very little difference if a Nazi government ever gained control of a nation to other Nazis.

Simialry we a have a long history of genocidal Christian government where aspects of the Biblical Law become actual Law and just like in modern European Law, if you do not agree with the law, you can still be prosecuted; similarly with the almost 12 centuries and more where the Christians ruled in Europe; an idiot like Logos880 might claim "I don't believe in the Biblical Law" but he could sitll be executed a heretic under such laws and burned at the stake for being a person who claims that Jesus did not advocate Christian Law.

Consider: "A Manifesto of Christian Government" on: http://www.albatrus.org/english/gove...government.htm

It is quite clear that this manifesto calls for the 10 commandments to become law; we have already had this kind of government for centuries and this would mean executions for blasphemy, heresy, adultery and numerous other "religious" laws such as executions for homosexuals.



This of course means that little witchy girls like you (My girlfriend is also an evangelical Wiccanist by the way) and heretics like me could be burned at the stake again.

This is why Christians like Logos880 are just Neonazis who are in denial that their system of government and Law is essentially genocidal, malevolent, subhuman and flawed.

Lux

that's a nice little trick there, rather than have a debate about ideas you'd rather make this conversation about my character and then make some nazi comparisons for shock value. your assertion that mosaic law still applies is wrong. [/thread]

[cwl3]

Originally Posted by luciferhorus

Jesus and the 613 Laws of Moses.

Lucifer 2012


Since in some of the threads here, I have found that "some" Christians when challenged by the savagery and ridiculousness of the Mosaic Law, often claim that the Law does not apply to them.

Christianity has been a religion which has from the 4th to the 16th centuries had legal powers throughout Europe to punish Europeans for disobeying Biblical Law; thus if a Christian had claimed that the Law did not apply to them, this belief could have been considered blasppemous and heretical, and their belief would have not been sufficient to stop them being punished under the law.

In Christian Europe for the 12 centuries these fanatics ruled , they did not enforce "all" of the Law, but certainly executions for blasphemy and heresy, for example, were enforced, and this all approved of by the Bible god, as are the burning of those who reject Christ.

The Christian attempt to impose their Bronze Age judicial system on the world, seems to have failed and they are losing ground to the Muslms; and Islam of course is a religion whose laws are implanted in the judical system of many nations, where one can still be punished for a variety of religious offences, and for blasphemym, heresy and for propagating other religions or ant-religion, and for harmless sexual acts between consenting adults. Perhaps the Christians of the West should emigrate to such Islamic nations whose legal system is much closer to Biblical Law than the secular legal systems of the West.

Lux

_____________

Anyway, I present here, a piece of Christian propaganda, arguing that the primitive Mosaic Law still applies "till heaven and earth pass away;" i.e., forever.

The article below is from: http://www.albatrus.org/english/theo..._fulfilled.htm

_____________

Till all be Fulfilled
aymon de albatrus



"17 Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets: I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. 18 For verily I say unto you, Till heaven and earth pass, one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled." (Mat 5:17-18)

"And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one pronunciation mark of the law to fail." (Luk 16:17)


--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

It is believed by many that Christ came to do away with the Law of God. The commandments they say were nailed to the cross. They teach that the commandments are a burden and some even go as far as saying that the law is evil. On the other hand many say that the commandments are still valid and we are to keep them.

Even an initial hurried survey of the 10 Commandments clearly shows that the last six are definitely even upheld by our secular ungodly legal system. Indeed, for example, who can honestly say that the sixth commandment "Thou shalt not murder" is done away with? These six commandments are clearly still with us, thus even a cursory scrutiny of these six commandments proves that the Law (summarised in these 10 C) is still en force, and certainly it will be active till there is someone alive in the flesh.

Think not that I am come to destroy the law, or the prophets. Our Saviour was just entering on His work. It was important for Him to state what He came to do. In setting Himself up as a teacher in opposition to the Scribes and Pharisees, He may be charged with intention to destroy the Law, and abolish the customs and traditions of the nation. Therefore He told them that He did not come for that, but really to fulfil or accomplish what was in the Law and the Prophets about Him. The Law are the five books of Moses, and the Prophets are the books, which the prophets wrote. These two divisions here are meant to comprehend the Old Testament and Jesus says that he did not come to do away or destroy its authority, but He referred to It continually to validate His actions, and so did His Apostles after His death, fully into the NT.

I am not come to destroy, but to fulfill. He came to complete the design; to fill up what was predicted, to accomplish what God intended. The word, fulfill, also, means sometimes to teach or inculcate, (Col 1:25). The Law contained many sacrifices and rites which were designed to shadow forth the Messiah, (Heb 9:1-28). These were fulfilled when He came and offered Himself as the perfect sacrifice to God, for all times, in favour of His people for whom he ever lives to intercede now in Heaven. (Heb 7:25)

Till heaven and earth pass. This expression denotes that the law never should be destroyed till it should be all fulfilled. It is the same as saying, everything else may change—the very earth and heaven may pass away—but the law of God shall not be destroyed, till its whole design shall be accomplished. Have earth and Heaven passed away? Methinks, not yet.

one jot or one tittle shall in no wise pass from the law, till all be fulfilled. The expression, "one jot or tittle," is proverbial, and means that not even the smallest part of the Law can be destroyed. The Jews were exceedingly cautious in writing these letters, and considered the smallest change or omission a reason for destroying the whole manuscript when they were transcribing the Old Testament. Jesus here uses this very well known expression to emphasis the point that the Law is perfect and cannot be destroyed: "The law of the LORD [is] perfect, converting the soul: the testimony of the LORD [is] sure, making wise the simple." (Psa 19:7)

The law is the certain and unchangeable will of God concerning reasonable creatures, and it shall never be altered in the least tittle, nor ever be abolished. With this our beloved Lord is saying that we can be sure He did not come into the world upon such errand.

The Law in the Pentateuch was commonly divided into moral, ceremonial, and judicial laws:

The moral laws are such as grow out of the nature of things, which cannot, therefore, be changed—such as the duty of loving God and his creatures. These cannot be abolished as it can never be made right to hate God, or to hate our fellow-men. Of this kind are the ten commandments; and these our Saviour has neither abolished nor superseded. This is a moral law, and cannot be changed. Those laws requiring love and obedience to God, and love to men, could not be changed, and Christ Jesus did not do that, but confirmed the moral law as unchanged. (Mat 19:19; 22:37-39 Luk 10:27; Rom 13:9)

The ceremonial laws are such as are appointed to meet certain states of society, or to regulate the religious rites and ceremonies of a people. These can be changed when circumstances are fulfilled. A general may command his soldiers to appear sometimes in a red coat, and sometimes in blue, or in yellow; this would be a ceremonial law. The ceremonial law was fulfilled by the sacrifice of Christ, on the cross: the shadow was absorbed in the substance, and ceased to be binding in that form. The ceremonial laws and animal sacrifices for atoning sins ceased to have any use on earth when Jesus the God/man paid on the cross for an atonement of infinite value for His people and He ever lives to intercede for them: "Why he is able also to save them to the uttermost that come to God by him, seeing he ever lives to make intercession for them." (Heb 7:25) Thus, in effect the ceremonial law still exists, but in Heaven performed by Christ Himself.

The judicial laws, or those regulating courts of justice, contained in the Old Testament. The judicial law regulated the courts of justice of the Jews and adapted to their own civil society. These were the application of the moral laws, e.g. summarised in the 10 commandments, as they should be in our society. The judicial law are the practical implementation of the moral laws and therefore not done away with, for the peaceful order of society. For example, if God commands the death penalty for murder, in His moral laws, that should be still applied. If the magistrates do not do that, they are negligent and rebellious setting themselves up over and against God, the Almighty Sovereign.

Surely we all agree that Heaven and earth are still here, obviously, so we can be pretty sure that the Law is intact, if we are to believe the words of our Master Jesus Christ: "And it is easier for heaven and earth to pass, than one pronunciation mark of the law to fail." (Luk 16:17)

If He had came to do away with His Father’s commandments why did He gave this answer to one who asked Him directly what one had to do to gain eternal life: "….. keep the commandments" (Mat 19:17,18) Surely if He had come to destroy the Law there was the perfect opportunity to say: "all you have to do is believe in Me without considering the Commandments".

Jesus did not say anything about doing away with the commandments in fact He confirmed them and expanded them: "Whoever therefore shall break one of these least commandments, and shall teach men so, he shall be called the least in the kingdom of heaven: but whoever shall do and teach them, the same shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven." (Mat 5:19-21)

Christ knew very well of this type of twisting the Law and warned those who were doing away with the Law of God were in fact worshipping Him in vain: "However, in vain do they worship me, teaching for doctrines the commandments of men." (Mar 7:7-9)

Taking the words of Jesus in (Mat 5:18), can anyone honestly say that the Law has been taken away? Surely, NO way? The Law is certainly still valid and applicable to all, from the beginning till the end of time, without a tittle changing. The difference in the NT is that the sacrifice of Christ, has been inserted by God between the believers (His elect) and the Law and Himself. This way His Law remains intact, perfectly satisfied by Grace through the Holy Blood of Christ Jesus, shed for His own, who are singing a new song, saying, "And they sung a new song, saying, You are worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for you were slain, and have redeemed us to God by your blood out of every kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation;" (Rev 5:9)

The Law is applicable to ALL, but for the believers His Grace is interposed between their sins and God, thus they are justified in front of God for He "sees" the justified sinner through the blood of Jesus, that is Grace for them. Moreover, Jesus continually intercedes for their sins through His Holy Blood shed once for all (Heb 7:25). The Law is now written in the hearts of the believers (Eze 36:25,26,27) and they now have a new nature, which enables them to satisfy Jesus' command: "If ye love me, keep my commandments." (Joh 14:15)

Moreover: "knowing this: that the law is not made for a righteous man, but for the lawless and disobedient, for the ungodly and for sinners, for the unholy and profane, for murderers of fathers and murderers of mothers, for manslayers," (1 Timothy 1:9) demonstrated clearly that the Law is in full activity, especially for the non believers, for they are not covered by the precious Blood of our Lord Jesus Christ.

The non-believers, the pagan, the heathen do not seek God, at all, and the Law is applied directly to them and It is satisfied in their condemnation to Hell. "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him." (John 3:36 )

Here is then the scriptural difference between the Law and Grace:

The Law tries to restrain the passions of the flesh,

Grace puts to death on the cross what is carnal and says: "I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me." (Gal 2:20)

The Law is absolutely necessary for the Justice of God and for His Grace. To fulfil His Justice; otherwise on what basis God would be able to condemn evil, Him being Righteous. And on what basis can He grant Grace since without Law there is no sin (Rom 5:13), in that case Grace would be meaningless. Praise God in the highest for His mercy, for we believers are not under the direct curse of the Law (still active) but we are shielded and fully Justified by Jesus Christ who is our Grace and our Peace with God: "Therefore being justified by faith, we have peace with God through our Lord Jesus Christ". (Rom 5:1) A huge Amen to that, AMEN.

In answer to the first phrase of this article, the Law is NOT evil, but good: "Why the law is holy, and the commandment holy, and just, and good." (Rom 7:12), for it is our schoolmaster to take us to salvation in Jesus Christ: "Why the law was our schoolmaster to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith." (Gal 3:24)

Yes we are to keep the Law, but NOT in the sense that by keeping It we are saved, for no one is good enough to keep It and if we fail in one commandment we have failed in all. "For whoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all." (Jam 2:10) We are to keep It (assisted by the Holy Ghost) in the sense of doing good works that our Lord has prepared for us before the beginning of time: "For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God has before ordained that we should walk in them." (Eph 2:10)

We conclude then that the Law has not passed away, for it is part and parcel of the eternal working of God and that Jesus came to fulfil the requirements of the Law for the benefit of His Own and by which we are: Called, Justified and Sanctified and Saved: "29 For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brothers. 30 Moreover whom he did predestined, them he also called: and whom he called, them he also justified: and whom he justified, them he also glorified. 31 What shall we then say to these things? If God be for us, who can be against us?" (Rom 8:29-31)



The Lord of Grace is glorified in our hearts, forever and ever, and ever, ….. whereby we cry, Abba, Father." (Rom 8:15)



Blah, blah, blah.

Savages

If this is true then I fail to see how it's any better than what Satanists want.

It's just a game where no one is keeping score.

[radziox]

Originally Posted by luciferhorus

Part of the Problem here is that with Logos880 we are dealing with the Christian equivalent of a Neo Nazi who is in denial of the Nazi genocides.

It seems that Logos is a Christian who implies that he rejects all Biblical Law; I doubt this to be the case as most Christians have their own particular cherry picked version of the Law; never the less he believes that the Law does not apply to him.

This is like a Neo-Nazi who promotes Nazism and states that he does not agree with all the Nazi Laws; this would make very little difference if a Nazi government ever gained control of a nation to other Nazis.

Simialry we a have a long history of genocidal Christian government where aspects of the Biblical Law become actual Law and just like in modern European Law, if you do not agree with the law, you can still be prosecuted; similarly with the almost 12 centuries and more where the Christians ruled in Europe; an idiot like Logos880 might claim "I don't believe in the Biblical Law" but he could sitll be executed a heretic under such laws and burned at the stake for being a person who claims that Jesus did not advocate Christian Law.

Consider: "A Manifesto of Christian Government" on: http://www.albatrus.org/english/gove...government.htm

It is quite clear that this manifesto calls for the 10 commandments to become law; we have already had this kind of government for centuries and this would mean executions for blasphemy, heresy, adultery and numerous other "religious" laws such as executions for homosexuals.



This of course means that little witchy girls like you (My girlfriend is also an evangelical Wiccanist by the way) and heretics like me could be burned at the stake again.

This is why Christians like Logos880 are just Neonazis who are in denial that their system of government and Law is essentially genocidal, malevolent, subhuman and flawed.

Lux

Well, actually i'm a man . Besides it isn't hard part to debunk Christianity and point out its crap. The real challenge is to actually get a brain-dead believer to somehow swallow that information, as most will just deny it.

And as for Nazis, i was never convinced as to most of what they were supposed to do. Don't get me wrong, i'm not defending them, but there never was any actuall evidence for many of anti-Nazi claims. The holocaust for one is long since debunked, as there are way too many things that directly contradict it and its claims. Its nothing more then a zionists move to gain a sympathy for Jews all over the globe and it worked pretty well. Don't you find it strange that in some countries denying holocaust automaticly gets you to jail? If holocaust is so strong and proven, then why is it so important to silence those people? Today even being a racist aggaisnt blacks is not anywhere near saying something to expose a Jew. Making as much one sentence like that automaticly gets you labeled as anti-semite. Again, i'm not defending the Nazis. I'm just saying that they got a lot of unjust and unproven slander. As we all know, victors write history. Since Nazis lost, their enemies were free to spread whatever they felt about them.

Sorry for the off-top, but i just needed to say what i had to say .

[radziox]

Originally Posted by logos880

that's a nice little trick there, rather than have a debate about ideas you'd rather make this conversation about my character and then make some nazi comparisons for shock value. your assertion that mosaic law still applies is wrong. [/thread]

Just one direct quote of Jesus saying that OT is invalid and not to be followed anymore and i promise that i will publicly admit that i was wrong. One quote- that's all i'm asking. If Jesus indeed wanted you to stop following the OT, he would have said so at least once.