Socialism = evil

[mushroomhead]

Originally Posted by quiranitramsab

The poll needs more options in between , not only extreme positions .
The way they are proposed now , I don´t feel compelled to vote .

didnt want too complicated a poll feel free to mention the in between positions

[mushroomhead]

lots of you think socialists would sponge off others or lock everyone up in a gulag stalin style ,
thats not socialism .

btw Stalin imprisoned at a ratio of 180,ooo in a million
America currently sits at 175,ooo in a million ,
not really related but a statistic worth a mention i think for comparative reasons if anything .

[wthree]

Originally Posted by nirvana

The UAF are a front group for the SWP. I was a member of the swp for a few years.

The swp have had plenty of front groups in the past anti nazi league,globalise resistance,stop the war coalition.

When i was a member of swp we would invite other people ,groups etc to come to the initial meetings for the groups we were starting then gey our members to vote on mass to make sure we pulled all the strings.

How can UAF be an anti right wing? its more right wing than the bnp.
Its vice chair is a extreemist from the Islamic forum of Europe

The SWP themselves arnt even socialist, they're just a bunch of reactionaries. So many are just students that get caught up in the anger against the government, and never stop to think about what they are doing. I'm not saying we shouldn't be out there protesting and trying to make a change, but at least have a level of sanity to it all.

Your right though, the UAF are not anti-right wing, they just try to attack anything that they percieve as right-wing.

In reality, groups like the BNP and EDL are made up of a lot of people who are not racist, are not fascist and are not anything that the UAF call them. Instead the UAF start attacking and insulting these groups under the banner of supposed 'anti-fascism'

[mushroomhead]

A socialist economic system would consist of an organization of production to directly satisfy economic demands and human needs, so that goods and services would be produced directly for use instead of for private profit driven by the accumulation of capital, and accounting would be based on physical quantities, a common physical magnitude, or a direct measure of labour-time . Distribution of output would be based on the principle of individual contribution.


"I am convinced there is only one way to eliminate (the) grave evils (of capitalism), namely through the establishment of a socialist economy, accompanied by an educational system which would be oriented toward social goals. In such an economy, the means of production are owned by society itself and are utilized in a planned fashion. A planned economy, which adjusts production to the needs of the community, would distribute the work to be done among all those able to work and would guarantee a livelihood to every man, woman, and child. The education of the individual, in addition to promoting his own innate abilities, would attempt to develop in him a sense of responsibility for his fellow-men in place of the glorification of power and success in our present society."

— Albert Einstein, Why Socialism?

[mushroomhead]

The specter of socialism is again haunting the minds of the corporate elite, from the Americas to Europe and beyond. This, after decades of pro-capitalist campaigning from the corporate media, which has always confused “capitalism” with “freedom.” But of course freedom and democracy cannot exist alongside tremendous inequalities of wealth — or next to corporations wielding absolute power over elections and governments.

The “utopian socialists” in the early 1800s tried to correct these social inequities by proposing grand schemes that, if adopted by governments, would help harmonize society. These reformers, however, soon learned that those in power wanted little to do with their ideas. They also learned that “alternative economic models” set up next to the large capitalist enterprises were soon crushed by these corporations, due to the superior wealth encapsulated in the giant machines the capitalists owned, as well as the state machinery that the corporate elite controlled.



The Utopian’s failure was partially due to a lack of understanding. At the time, people were attempting to grasp what was happening to society; capitalist industrialization was happening at a lightning pace, with little preparedness or understanding from the majority of people. Blind economic forces seemed to be advancing uncontrollably.



Karl Marx was the first person to really study and dissect the capitalist system. His greatest work, Capital, is an extremely thorough analysis and critique of the capitalist economic system. He was the first to diagnose “what was happening,” and through his assessment a “solution” logically emerged.



In fact, modern socialism can be theoretically reduced to correcting the economic contradictions that inherently exist in capitalism. Marx listed these contradictions in his Capital; the “socialist solution” is merely the correction of these fundamental problems of capitalism.



For example, in capitalism’s embryonic stage, the capitalist ran a small shop, where perhaps he sold wagon wheels. But as capitalism evolved, a thousand times more goods were produced after the whole town was organized to make wagon wheels, each person performing a different, very small task, but all working cooperatively to produce the final product. The profit, however, went to one person — the owner, or owners. The result was that wagon wheels were immensely cheaper, and those who could not afford the high cost of the factory-approach of production — machines, labor costs, and raw materials — were pushed out of the market.

The Origins of Modern Socialism
Freedom & Democracy cannot exist alongside tremendous inequalities of wealth

by Shamus Cooke

[mushroomhead]

forget what nazis tell you about evil socialism , they cannot possibly know because it has never existed as a working concept on this planet ,
edl bnp or anyone spouting about evils of socialism are dis info pedlars ,
the real facts by eminent authors and nobel award winners etc is out there on google get the facts not the spin on what socialism could mean .

the world is /has been torn aprt by different factions of corporate greed and hierarchy in order to create elites .

[hizzy2]

No, socialism is not "evil" at all, but in the past has been taken & used by "evil" people. Most economic /political ideas if implemented correctly would probably work for the common good, but for a corrupt few who hijack & distort the economic /political systems for their own benefit. Its been happening since the beginning of civilization i would guess, maybe its human nature or possibly directed from unseen forces?

[guevarista]

The hierarchical principle remains common to the fanatics of both sides: opposite the capitalism of Lloyd George and Krupp appears the anticapitalism of Lenin and Trotsky. From the mirrors of the masters of the present the masters of the future are already smiling back.
Heinrich Heine writes:

LSchelnd scheidet der Tyran
Denn er weiss, nach seinem Tode
Wechselt WillkŸr nur die HSnde
Und die Knechtschaft hat kein Ende.

The tyrant dies smiling;
for he knows that after his death tyranny will merely change hands,
and slavery will never end.

Bosses differ according to their modes of domination, but they are still bosses, owners of a power exercised as a private right.

Raoul Vaneigem

[mithios]

Originally Posted by guevarista

If you have no input to how you and your land is ruled/governed how does that empower you?

Lol,you're not getting it.

I'm not going to keep repeating myself so in essense: We have no imput,unless you're happy with the illusion of it. Polticians have had their chance for millennia to make things better,and they have failed. The same old system. Failed. Politics has failed. There is no empowerment as long as there is the stagnant notion of politics.

[wake_up_bomb]

I don't think Socialism is evil, but it requires total and consistent benevolence from the State for a very long period of time. Furthermore, all the 'right-wing' press in Britain (ie. virtually every newspaper) would instantly vitriolically oppose such a government, and the chances of them winning more than one election would be very slim. Better always than Socialism is direct democracy, in which you at least have a chance of holding the government to account.

[vancity eagle]

Originally Posted by rhydra

Socialism, rounding people up, putting them in gulags and murdering them by the millions, I don't believe in the concept of evil as it is a human action, however, it's a pretty rotten concept and one which deprives of their dignity and individualism those who have to live under it. I include National Socialism as it is the same collectivisation of wealth by a centralised government going around nationalising stuff and public works such as road building and militarisation.

So because some so called "Socialists" did this that means all Socialists are bad.

I guess all Capitalists are bad too then by such logic, all religious peoples and non religious peoples as well, heck all peoples are just bad.

[guevarista]

Mithios, you're not the only one who has been completely disenfranchised, if I was a bit less cynical there are a load of "political" causes I would engage with, there are some I engage with all the same, organisation, direct action and governing one's own affairs, determining one's own thoughts, values and opinions is what I consider to be politics.

I agree we (you) need to get past this notion that politics is stagnant, we should take more active roles in local trade, local law enforcement, local institutions, community based organisation, instead of leaving it up to bureaucrats and paid reps. (rasentatives, not tillians).

[vancity eagle]

the hatred for Socialism is a completely engineered and manufactured political ideology. Decades of fearmongering and brainwashing mainly in America. TPTB are behind this, and its all a part of the left right paradigm. Youll find that most people who speak out against it, dont even know what it is.
I find it funny that so many in the conspiracy field, believe the NWO is a socialist or communist conspiracy. It actually much more resembles a capitalist or imperialist conspircay in truth.

[mithios]

Originally Posted by guevarista

Mithios, you're not the only one who has been completely disenfranchised, if I was a bit less cynical there are a load of "political" causes I would engage with, there are some I engage with all the same, organisation, direct action and governing one's own affairs, determining one's own thoughts, values and opinions is what I consider to be politics.

I agree we (you) need to get past this notion that politics is stagnant, we should take more active roles in local trade, local law enforcement, local institutions, community based organisation, instead of leaving it up to bureaucrats and paid reps. (rasentatives, not tillians).

But that's not politics Okay,we seem to have defined it very differently. When I say politics,I mean the system of politics,the phoney left/right games and the bureaucracy. I don't see people being involved in the active shaping of their communities as politics. That's simply living.

Many people think Politics (I'm gonna capital P it from now on) can help us achieve that,and it can't. Because it is the very antithesis of Politics.

[guevarista]

I don't disagree it is living, something alot of people now outsource to corporations and paid offshore bureaucrats, it's a bit of a disgrace really if we're honest as humans, I suppose I still play a few little political games myself now and then, maybe just out of sheer anger, subversively, for what it's worth.

I think the affirmation of life and freedom in your everyday is very contagious, and quite damaging to the ideological basis and structure of the system, the integrity of the program if you will

[guevarista]

Originally Posted by vancity eagle

the hatred for Socialism is a completely engineered and manufactured political ideology. Decades of fearmongering and brainwashing mainly in America. TPTB are behind this, and its all a part of the left right paradigm. Youll find that most people who speak out against it, dont even know what it is.
I find it funny that so many in the conspiracy field, believe the NWO is a socialist or communist conspiracy. It actually much more resembles a capitalist or imperialist conspircay in truth.

It's a powerful post, do you have any links on the John Birch Society?

[mithios]

Originally Posted by guevarista

I don't disagree it is living, something alot of people now outsource to corporations and paid offshore bureaucrats, it's a bit of a disgrace really if we're honest as humans, I suppose I still play a few little political games myself now and then, maybe just out of sheer anger, subversively, for what it's worth.

I think the affirmation of life and freedom in your everyday is very contagious, and quite damaging to the ideological basis and structure of the system, the integrity of the program if you will

I agree with that. It seems quite often people (I include myself in that obviously) fall into getting angry about the things we're told we can't change,and forget to BE the change

[vancity eagle]

Originally Posted by guevarista

It's a powerful post, do you have any links on the John Birch Society?

I am aware that they were the lead anti-NWO group which got its funding from Jewish and Freemasonic sources. They pretty much led the "NWO is a communist conspiracy" ideology which is very present in todays "truth movement".

If people would just do the research, you will find that post WW2 all "socialist" or "nationalist", (very similar IMO) countries have been attacked by the Empire, and targets for regime change in order to install Pro Western/Capitalist/anti-nationalist regimes. The whole "its the communists" thing is just a big diversion, although TPTB also use communism for their goals as well.

[nirvana]

Socialists will say socialism has never existed

Nationalists will say nationalism has never existed

Capitalists will say true capitalism has never existed

Communists will say communism has never existed



So what has really ever existed

[guevarista]

I consider most of the indigenous tribes of the earth to have been communist at some stage, especially in North America, in other words, natural human existence has existed and so has communism/socialism in it's purest form.