Why Islam Is Only True Religion From God

[ciko]

Originally Posted by nascido da luz

I am Christian,
but I am not Adamic... I do not belong to their generations, I was not born
on any of their Households, and I was not bought by them...

So that covenant was not between the LORD God and me... it was between the LORD God and them, His people.

So why do I need circumcision to be acceptable..?
I still not understand.



and what about the other disciples... none from them was worth
believing..?!?

So that covenant was not between the LORD God and me... it was between the LORD God and them,

, it is a covenant of all followers of Abraham, we muslims and jews are follower of Abraham, if you are not follower of abraham , then dont do it...

and what about the other disciples... none from them was worth
believing..?!?

yes, we can believe them if we get trustfull information with proof...

[merla]

Originally Posted by quietgirl

Communion is important to me as a Christian because it stems from the Last Supper, where Jesus told his followers to "do this in remembrance of me" - therefore, the Bread and Wine are important sacraments ("i.e. an outward, visible sign of inward, invisible grace"). Catholics and Protestants tend to differ, though, in how they see "communion" - many Catholics believe that it literally becomes the "substance" of Jesus at Communion (the doctrine of transubstantiation, I believe - please correct me if I've got that bit wrong!). Protestants and Anglicans (of which I am one) tend to see it as symbolic rather than literal, although containing a great Mystery.

I do personally feel I gain a great spiritual uplifting when I attend a Communion service, or receive the Sacrament at home (as I do sometimes as my health is rather rocky at the moment!).

Mandy

You're spot on with the Catholic belief, I fall on the protestant side of things but like you say as an affemation of faith it brings you closer to god.

Controversal view point alert, you don't actually need a priest or vicar to do communion with, you have the right to bless the bread and wine yourself, a priest or vicar is just someone to stand at the front and lead things, they aren't any more important or spiritually gifted (for just being a vicer/priest I mean, indivual gifts are another matter entirely) than any other member of the congregation, they just have specialised training in the specifics of the church service and a decree in theology.

I wanted to point something out about the way some christians pray as well, they do it constantly, they have a running converstation with God all day long. I think that is exactly the relationship we should have with him, it's hard to do with allthe distractions of the modern lifestyle with live in but I often fins myself chatting away in my quiet moments.

[ciko]

Originally Posted by merla

That would be under the old covenant. I guess the whole new covenant created by God through the cruxifiction passed you by as well.

whaaat ?? there is no old covenant when jesus clearly said that he did not came to destroy old convevant or old laws of Moses

Jesus said:

Mathew 5:17-19 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God's law will disappear until its purpose is achieved.
Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


so how can you say old covenant when jesus never abolished this old covenant /old laws? do you follow jesus or Paul?

it was Paul who abolished old laws by changing them, that is why you call them old covenant, but jesus did not gave you permission to do that..

[merla]

Originally Posted by ciko

, it is a covenant of all followers of Abraham, we muslims and jews are follower of Abraham, if you are not follower of abraham , then dont do it...




yes, we can believe them if we get trustfull information with proof...

Christians aren't followers of Abraham, we don't follow those laws as we live under the new covenant.

I want to say sorry if I've come over as having ago, I didn't get much sleep last night and I can be a bit narky. I'm genuinely debating with you and sharing a christian view point, I'm not being argumentative. So yeah, sorry if it come over like that. I'll be good from now on

[quietgirl]

Originally Posted by ciko

no he did not, beacuse it was against Laws of Moses wich jesus followed , if he turned water in wine it does not mean you should drink it, what if he turned water into poison, should you drink it also ? of course not..

LOOK FOR YOURSELF WHAT GOD SAYS IN BIBLE ABOUT ALCOHOL

OLD TESTAMENT

Judges 13:4 So be careful; you must not drink wine or any other alcoholic drink nor eat any forbidden food.

NUMBERSS 6:The LORD said to Moses, Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'If a man or woman wants to make a special vow, a vow of separation to the LORD as a Nazirite, he must abstain from wine and other fermented drink and must not drink vinegar made from wine or from other fermented drink. He must not drink grape juice or eat grapes or raisins




not true, yes it is prohibited in new testament also

NEW TESTAMENT ALSO FORBIDS ALCOHOL

Luke 1:15 for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from birth




yes of course

I've just checked that out as I'd forgotten that bit and yes, it does say that, but it's referring to John the Baptist (who lived a very austere life, eating only locusts and honey, which obviously isn't suitable for most people!), rather than Jesus.

I think what the Bible is driving at is that people who wish to make certain spiritual vows should abstain from alcohol, and that there are certain situations where it's not appropriate - e.g. for those set apart to be Nizarites, as talked about in that passage from Judges. I don't see anything about a blanket ban.

Although it's true to say that many Christians disapprove of intoxicating liquor and avoid it. The Methodists, for example, abstain from alcohol and actually use unfermented grape juice for their Communion rather than wine. I myself abstain for a variety of reasons.

Mandy

[merla]

Originally Posted by ciko

whaaat ?? there is no old covenant when jesus clearly said that he did not came to destroy old convevant or old laws of Moses

Jesus said:

Mathew 5:17-19 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God's law will disappear until its purpose is achieved.
Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


so how can you say old covenant when jesus never abolished this old covenant /old laws? do you follow jesus or Paul?

it was Paul who abolished old laws by changing them, that is why you call them old covenant, but jesus did not gave you permission to do that..

The old covenant = sin is death. The new covenant written on the hearts of man is redemption and forgiveness in god.

I'll give you a few links because I'm way too tired to explain in my own words.


http://www.gotquestions.org/new-covenant.html


http://www.growthingod.org.uk/newcov.htm

Ps I don't agree with this guy that if we were killing people for breaking the old law we'd have a better society, probably a smaller one but not better.

[ciko]

Originally Posted by quietgirl

Communion is important to me as a Christian because it stems from the Last Supper, where Jesus told his followers to "do this in remembrance of me" - therefore, the Bread and Wine are important sacraments ("i.e. an outward, visible sign of inward, invisible grace"). Catholics and Protestants tend to differ, though, in how they see "communion" - many Catholics believe that it literally becomes the "substance" of Jesus at Communion (the doctrine of transubstantiation, I believe - please correct me if I've got that bit wrong!). Protestants and Anglicans (of which I am one) tend to see it as symbolic rather than literal, although containing a great Mystery.

I do personally feel I gain a great spiritual uplifting when I attend a Communion service, or receive the Sacrament at home (as I do sometimes as my health is rather rocky at the moment!).

Mandy

the Bread and Wine are important sacraments

but that is illogical with your christian belief, both old and new testament say dont drink alcohol and wine, and you christians do that, where is logic here

OLD TESTAMENT

Judges 13:4 So be careful; you must not drink wine or any other alcoholic drink nor eat any forbidden food.

NUMBERSS 6:The LORD said to Moses, Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'If a man or woman wants to make a special vow, a vow of separation to the LORD as a Nazirite, he must abstain from wine and other fermented drink and must not drink vinegar made from wine or from other fermented drink. He must not drink grape juice or eat grapes or raisins


NEW TESTAMENT ALSO FORBIDS ALCOHOL

Luke 1:15 for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from birth


do you know why wine and alcohol is forbidden ?

BEACUSE IT HARMS YOU, SO HOW CAN JESUS ALLOW SOMTHING WICH CAN HARM YOU, HOW CAN GOW ALLOW YOU SOMETHING WICH CAN HARM YOU

http://www.dailytech.com/A+Glass+of+...ticle14409.htm

Science
A Glass of Wine Daily Causes Cancer According to Massive Study

Cancer of a fine vintage? A new study shows that drinking just one glass of wine daily can significantly raise the risk of many types of cancer in women, particular breast and rectal cancer. (Source: winebeersupermarket.com)A new study showed that consuming a glass of wine daily raises cancer rates in women


A massive study by the prestigious University of Oxford reveals that drinking just one alcoholic drink a day, including a glass of wine, may significantly raise your risk of cancer.

TELL ME NOW,

OLD TEASTAMENT , NEW TEATEMNT AND QURAN SAYS DONT DRINK ALCOHOL AND WINE, EVEN SCIENCE SAYS THAT BEACUSE IT HARMS YOU, YOU CAN GET CANCER OR MAYBE SOMETHING LIKE THIS....

Don't Drink and Drive - YouTube

Don't Drink and Drive - YouTube

how can you drink wine and alcohol after all these evidence, from bible and science?

[quietgirl]

Originally Posted by merla

You're spot on with the Catholic belief, I fall on the protestant side of things but like you say as an affemation of faith it brings you closer to god.

Controversal view point alert, you don't actually need a priest or vicar to do communion with, you have the right to bless the bread and wine yourself, a priest or vicar is just someone to stand at the front and lead things, they aren't any more important or spiritually gifted (for just being a vicer/priest I mean, indivual gifts are another matter entirely) than any other member of the congregation, they just have specialised training in the specifics of the church service and a decree in theology.

I wanted to point something out about the way some christians pray as well, they do it constantly, they have a running converstation with God all day long. I think that is exactly the relationship we should have with him, it's hard to do with allthe distractions of the modern lifestyle with live in but I often fins myself chatting away in my quiet moments.

I agree with much of what you say there, Merla, especially about prayer. Yes, we are called to pray constantly, which isn't easy to do in our modern, hectic age but like you I often find myself "dropping in" on God when things are quiet!

I was brought up to believe that only a priest could distribute Communion, so your view on that is a new one on me, but when I think about it, if we are a "priesthood of all believers", then maybe there's no reason why anyone who is a Believer should be able to administer it. I'd have to give that one a bit more thought!

Mandy

[quietgirl]

Originally Posted by ciko

but that is illogical with your christian belief, both old and new testament say dont drink alcohol and wine, and you christians do that, where is logic here

OLD TESTAMENT

Judges 13:4 So be careful; you must not drink wine or any other alcoholic drink nor eat any forbidden food.

NUMBERSS 6:The LORD said to Moses, Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'If a man or woman wants to make a special vow, a vow of separation to the LORD as a Nazirite, he must abstain from wine and other fermented drink and must not drink vinegar made from wine or from other fermented drink. He must not drink grape juice or eat grapes or raisins


NEW TESTAMENT ALSO FORBIDS ALCOHOL

Luke 1:15 for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from birth


do you know why wine and alcohol is forbidden ?

BEACUSE IT HARMS YOU, SO HOW CAN JESUS ALLOW SOMTHING WICH CAN HARM YOU, HOW CAN GOW ALLOW YOU SOMETHING WICH CAN HARM YOU

http://www.dailytech.com/A+Glass+of+...ticle14409.htm




TELL ME NOW,

OLD TEASTAMENT , NEW TEATEMNT AND QURAN SAYS DONT DRINK ALCOHOL AND WINE, EVEN SCIENCE SAYS THAT BEACUSE IT HARMS YOU, YOU CAN GET CANCER OR MAYBE SOMETHING LIKE THIS....

Don't Drink and Drive - YouTube

how can you drink wine and alcohol after all these evidence, from bible and science?

I don't personally drink alcohol, for a variety of reasons, some spiritual, some physical. If others wish to "take a little wine" in moderation though, I have no problem with that!

Guess we'll just have to "agree to disagree" on that point, ciko, but never mind, eh - it's still good to have these discussions!

Mandy

[nascido da luz]

Originally Posted by ciko

, it is a covenant of all followers of Abraham, we muslims and jews are follower of Abraham, if you are not follower of abraham , then dont do it...

It is not a Covenant to all followers, but to their descendents or to those bought by them...

Where does it say that followers must be circumcised..?

Originally Posted by ciko

yes, we can believe them if we get trustfull information with proof...

so all Disciples were not worth any trust..?
just as we are not worth trust either if we do not accept Islam
as the only truth..?
Seams quite radical...
and what is it possible to do to make Christianity acceptable to you..?
that seams like will never truly happen... or am I wrong..?

so is not possible to convert to your religion without rejecting
Christianity first..? and why do we have to convert... why not just accept our differences..?

.

[knightofthegrail]

Originally Posted by ciko

Judges 13:4 So be careful; you must not drink wine or any other alcoholic drink nor eat any forbidden food.

That was instruction to ONE PERSON (the wife of Marue).

NUMBERSS 6:The LORD said to Moses, Speak to the Israelites and say to them: 'If a man or woman wants to make a special vow, a vow of separation to the LORD as a Nazirite, he must abstain from wine and other fermented drink and must not drink vinegar made from wine or from other fermented drink. He must not drink grape juice or eat grapes or raisins

That is the vow of the NAZERITE. Christians are not Nazerites or there would have been no wine at Communion.

Luke 1:15 for he will be great in the sight of the Lord. He is never to take wine or other fermented drink, and he will be filled with the Holy Spirit even from birth

That applies to ONE PERSON (John the Baptist).

Any more misquotes?

[ciko]

[QUOTE=merla;1060633454]The old covenant = sin is death. The new covenant written on the hearts of man is redemption and forgiveness in god.
[QUOTE]


NO, it depends what kind of sin

God is forgiving according to old testament:

5 And the Lord descended in the cloud and stood there with him as he called upon the name of the Lord. 6 Then the Lord passed by in front of him and proclaimed, “The Lord, the Lord God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth; 7 who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations” (Exodus 34:5-7).

9 “To the Lord our God belong compassion and forgiveness, for we have rebelled against Him” (Daniel 9:9).

[jesusissalvation]

Originally Posted by ciko

no, arabic word for God is ILAH, Allah is personal name of God.

Thank you for the correction.

Ilah (Arabic) for 'God'. Allah = 'God of the Muslims'
Elaha (Aramaic) for 'God'. God the Father, God the Son (Jesus) and God the Holy Spirit (Melchisedec) = Godhead of 'Christians'

[merla]

[quote=ciko;1060633479][QUOTE=merla;1060633454]The old covenant = sin is death. The new covenant written on the hearts of man is redemption and forgiveness in god.

NO, it depends what kind of sin

God is forgiving according to old testament:

5 And the Lord descended in the cloud and stood there with him as he called upon the name of the Lord. 6 Then the Lord passed by in front of him and proclaimed, “The Lord, the Lord God, compassionate and gracious, slow to anger, and abounding in lovingkindness and truth; 7 who keeps lovingkindness for thousands, who forgives iniquity, transgression and sin; yet He will by no means leave the guilty unpunished, visiting the iniquity of fathers on the children and on the grandchildren to the third and fourth generations” (Exodus 34:5-7).

9 “To the Lord our God belong compassion and forgiveness, for we have rebelled against Him” (Daniel 9:9).

Sorry I should qualify that, sin = spiritual death, final death as it were, because no one is worhty before the lord, we all carry sin with us in varying degree no matter how hard we try not to.

[ultimate_warlord]

IMO Yahweh is quite an unstable god.
Old covenant...New Covenant...Old testament...New testament...Original Sin...mortal sin...immortal sin...
Messiah...Christ...Prophet...Antichrist...etc. etc. etc.
Just waiting for medium rare christ now.
When is he gonna make up his psycho mind?
Oh sorry...He doesn`t have one.

[merla]

Originally Posted by quietgirl

I agree with much of what you say there, Merla, especially about prayer. Yes, we are called to pray constantly, which isn't easy to do in our modern, hectic age but like you I often find myself "dropping in" on God when things are quiet!

I was brought up to believe that only a priest could distribute Communion, so your view on that is a new one on me, but when I think about it, if we are a "priesthood of all believers", then maybe there's no reason why anyone who is a Believer should be able to administer it. I'd have to give that one a bit more thought!

Mandy

My dad was/is a vicar, I've seen things from the inside Plus like you say Jesus called everyone to follow him as a disciple and at Pentecost everyone was given the gifts not just one or two.

My upbringing encouraged exploration of what god means outside the traditions, I meant to say before when Paul was brought up that some Christians dismiss the Pauline doctorine completely because they think he highjacked the original meaning and message of Jesus.

[ciko]

Originally Posted by nascido da luz

It is not a Covenant to all followers, but to their descendents or to those bought by them...

Where does it say that followers must be circumcised..?



so all Disciples were not worth any trust..?
just as we are not worth trust either if we do not accept Islam
as the only truth..?
Seams quite radical...
and what is it possible to do to make Christianity acceptable to you..?
that seams like will never truly happen... or am I wrong..?

so is not possible to convert to your religion without rejecting
Christianity first..? and why do we have to convert... why not just accept our differences..?

.

Where does it say that followers must be circumcised..?

circumcison is part of old laws wich jesus followed

God says in bible:

Genesis 17:10-14 This is my covenant with you and your descendants after you, the covenant you are to keep: Every male among you shall be circumcised. You are to undergo circumcision, and it will be the sign of the covenant between me and you.For the generations to come every male among you who is eight days old must be circumcised, including those born in your household or bought with money from a foreigner--those who are not your offspring.Whether born in your household or bought with your money, they must be circumcised. My covenant in your flesh is to be an everlasting covenant.Any uncircumcised male, who has not been circumcised in the flesh, will be cut off from his people; he has broken my covenant."


Jesus said:

Jesus said:

Mathew 5:17-19 "Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them.I tell you the truth, until heaven and earth disappear, not even the smallest detail of God's law will disappear until its purpose is achieved.
Anyone who breaks one of the least of these commandments and teaches others to do the same will be called least in the kingdom of heaven, but whoever practices and teaches these commands will be called great in the kingdom of heaven.


that is why jesus was circumsied also, beacuse it is the part of the old law,

BUT WHY DO WE NEED DO BE circumsied?

WHAT DOES SCIENCE SAYS ABOUT IT

http://www.who.int/hiv/topics/malecircumcision/en/

Male circumcision for HIV prevention

There is compelling evidence that male circumcision reduces the risk of heterosexually acquired HIV infection in men by approximately 60%. Three randomized controlled trials have shown that male circumcision provided by well trained health professionals in properly equipped settings is safe. WHO/UNAIDS recommendations emphasize that male circumcision should be considered an efficacious intervention for HIV prevention in countries and regions with heterosexual epidemics, high HIV and low male circumcision prevalence.

Male circumcision provides only partial protection, and therefore should be only one element of a comprehensive HIV prevention package which includes:
- the provision of HIV testing and counseling services;
- treatment for sexually transmitted infections;
- the promotion of safer sex practices;
- the provision of male and female condoms and promotion of their correct and consistent use.

http://www.circinfo.com/benefits/bmc.html

Are there benefits from circumcision?
There are several:

1 Many older men, who have bladder or prostate gland problems, also develop difficulties with their foreskins due to their surgeon's handling, cleaning, and using instruments. Some of these patients will need circumcising. Afterwards it is often astonishing to find some who have never ever seen their glans (knob) exposed before!

2 Some older men develop cancer of the penis - about 1 in 1000 - fairly rare, but tragic if you or your son are in that small statistic. Infant circumcision gives almost 100% protection, and young adult circumcision also gives a large degree of protection.

3 Cancer of the cervix in women is due to the Human Papilloma Virus. It thrives under and on the foreskin from where it can be transmitted during intercourse. An article in the British Medical Journal in April 2002 suggested that at least 20% of cancer of the cervix would be avoided if all men were circumcised. Surely that alone makes it worth doing?

4 Protection against HIV and AIDS. Another British Medical Journal article in May 2000 suggested that circumcised men are 8 times less likely to contract the HIV virus. (It is very important here to say that the risk is still far too high and that condoms and safe sex must be used - this applies also to preventing cancer of the cervix in women who have several partners.)

A BBC television programme in November 2000 showed two Ugandan tribes across the valley from one another. One practised circumcision and had very little AIDS, whereas, it was common in the other tribe, who then also started circumcising. This programme showed how the infection thrived in the lining of the foreskin, making it much easier to pass on.

5 As with HIV, so some protection exists against other sexually transmitted infections. Accordingly, if a condom splits or comes off, there is some protection for the couple. However, the only safe sex is to stick to one partner or abstain.

6 Lots of men, and their partners, prefer the appearance of their penis after circumcision, It is odour-free, it feels cleaner, and they enjoy better sex. Awareness of a good body image is a very important factor in building self confidence.

7 Balanitis is an unpleasant, often recurring, inflammation of the glans. It is quite common and can be prevented by circumcision.

8 Urinary tract infections sometimes occur in babies and can be quite serious. Circumcision in infancy makes it 10 times less likely.

THAT IS WHY CIRCUMSION IS GOOD FOR YOU, BEACUSE YOU DONT FOLLOW JESUS AS WE MUSLIMS DO, THEN YOU DONT KNOW THIS STUFF, EVEN SCIENCE CONFIRMS THAT CIRCUMSION IS GOOD FOR YOU, BUT YOU DONT LISTEN

so all Disciples were not worth any trust..?

YES THEY ARE WORTY, BUT NOT ALL OF THEM, AND I BELIEVE WHAT ONE OF HIS DISCIPLES WROTE, DISCPLE BARNABAS

READ WHAT HE WROTE
http://barnabas.net/chapters.html

and what is it possible to do to make Christianity acceptable to you..?
that seams like will never truly happen... or am I wrong..?

as i said jesus never teached people christianity, it was Paul, and he had not same teaching as jesus, Paul created christianity. so how can you believe in a person who dont have same teachings as jesus? how can you do that?

so is not possible to convert to your religion without rejecting
Christianity first..?

when you convert to islam, then you are real follower of jesus, but not right now, do you understand me?

and why do we have to convert...

beacuse islam is the religion of all prophets, adam, moses, abrahama, jesus, muhammed and others...islam is the only accepteble relgion in sight of God, beacuse it was God who crated this relgion islam, not muhammed nor anybody else, but God. that is why

why not just accept our differences..?

no, beacuse it is not allowed to mix correct belief with false belief, God forbids us that in quran.

Bible says dont drink alcohol and wine, and christians still drink alcohol and wine, and do we muslims also need to accept that alcohol and wine is ok, just beacuse you dont know even you own book, what it says to you?

we have to distingiush , wrong beliefs from correct belief..

[ciko]

[quote=merla;1060633493][quote=ciko;1060633479]

Originally Posted by merla

Sorry I should qualify that, sin = spiritual death, final death as it were, because no one is worhty before the lord, we all carry sin with us in varying degree no matter how hard we try not to.

we all carry sin with us in varying degree no matter how hard we try not to

but God forgive all sins if we sincerly repent to him

God says in quran:

Say(muhammed to humankind): O My servants who have transgressed against their own souls, despair not of the mercy of Allah. Indeed, Allah forgives all sins. Truly, He is Most Forgiving, Most Merciful. (Surah az-Zumar 39:53)

[merla]

[quote=ciko;1060633532][quote=merla;1060633493]

Originally Posted by ciko

but God forgive all sins if we sincerly repent to him

God says in quran:

Say(muhammed to humankind): O My servants who have transgressed against their own souls, despair not of the mercy of Allah. Indeed, Allah forgives all sins. Truly, He is Most Forgiving, Most Merciful. (Surah az-Zumar 39:53)

Correct me if I'm wrong but isn't that after the new covenant was established?

[nascido da luz]

Well... not much else for me in your religion then...
I'm already starting to feel like facing to a wall...