Robert Green imprisoned for 1 year - Page 23

the baron · 19-04-2012, 10:17 AM

Roger Hayes, organiser of the Free Robert Green leafleting last weekend which promised to shake the establishment to it's core displays his lack of even the most basic knowledge of the case in an email exchange with "Py Rite".

Robert was arrested and charged for breaching the peace - for breaking the injunction... BUT the paper work was delivered to his home on a day when he was traveling

HAYES DEMONSTRATES HIS COMPLETE IGNORANCE OF SCOTS LAW. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AN INJUNCTION - IT IS CALLED AN INTERDICT WHICH IS A CIVIL MATTER AND HAS NO CONNECTION TO THE CRIMINAL CHARGE OF BREACH OF THE PEACE.

Is there any evidence that Robert published the names... I am led to believe he did not - do you know differently?

ROBERT ACTUALLY NAMED PEOPLE ON 2ND OCTOBER 2009 IN THE QUAKER HALL IN EDINBURGH. YOU REALLY DO NEED TO DO SOME INVESTIGATING.

ONCE AGAIN THE CULT DEMONSTRATE THEIR BLATANT DISREGARD FOR FACTS AND EVIDENCE. WHEN YOU GET BEYOND THE INITIAL EMOTIONAL IMPACT OF THE STORY YOU QUICKLY DISCOVER THERE IS ACTUALLY NO EVIDENCE OF PAEDOPHILE RING, ESTABLISHMENT COVER-UP, MASONIC CONSPIRACY ETC.

uprising · 19-04-2012, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the baron

On the Missing Pieces blog, Wyn Dragon has denied being an abuser, is claiming to have been Anne Greig's best friend and sheds new light on the allegations.

http://robertgreenandthemissingpieces.blogspot.com/

Will www.holliedemandsjustice.org be able to provide a lucid response to this ?

That looks a good read I'll have a proper look later. My initial reaction is the questions and answers should be going on in an official enquiry where both sides can air their views.

Why else should I believe a word the alleged Paedophile says?

It's hard to tell from writing if someone is bullshitting or not.

I've heard and seen Anne give her account and feel she is being honest.

Again your post just highlights the need for this to be done properly not through blogs etc.

jimmi · 19-04-2012, 10:54 AM

So Roger Hayes mixes up one word for another, when the two words mean essentially the same thing, you really are desperate.

How are we to know who the guilty are unless there is a proper investigation carried out by a police force that has shown itself to be uncorrupted ?

And what about the papers passed to the 'judge' during Robert Green's trial that had the masonic compass on the front ?

Oh of course, silly me, I wrote judge instead of sheriff, so that blows the masonic connection out of the water then?

martg · 19-04-2012, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the baron

Roger Hayes, organiser of the Free Robert Green leafleting last weekend which promised to shake the establishment to it's core displays his lack of even the most basic knowledge of the case in an email exchange with "Py Rite".

Robert was arrested and charged for breaching the peace - for breaking the injunction... BUT the paper work was delivered to his home on a day when he was traveling

HAYES DEMONSTRATES HIS COMPLETE IGNORANCE OF SCOTS LAW. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AN INJUNCTION - IT IS CALLED AN INTERDICT WHICH IS A CIVIL MATTER AND HAS NO CONNECTION TO THE CRIMINAL CHARGE OF BREACH OF THE PEACE.

Is there any evidence that Robert published the names... I am led to believe he did not - do you know differently?

ROBERT ACTUALLY NAMED PEOPLE ON 2ND OCTOBER 2009 IN THE QUAKER HALL IN EDINBURGH. YOU REALLY DO NEED TO DO SOME INVESTIGATING.

ONCE AGAIN THE CULT DEMONSTRATE THEIR BLATANT DISREGARD FOR FACTS AND EVIDENCE. WHEN YOU GET BEYOND THE INITIAL EMOTIONAL IMPACT OF THE STORY YOU QUICKLY DISCOVER THERE IS ACTUALLY NO EVIDENCE OF PAEDOPHILE RING, ESTABLISHMENT COVER-UP, MASONIC CONSPIRACY ETC.

still at it?
spreading lies and accusing people of being in a cult?
I realise you have a job to do but covering up for paedo's is sickening.

If there was no evidence why did the criminal compensation board pay Anne and Hollie compensation?

uprising · 19-04-2012, 11:49 AM

Baron? ..Are you Greg Lance Watkins?

http://www.davidicke.com/articles/78...t-this-reason-

the baron · 19-04-2012, 11:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martg

still at it?
spreading lies and accusing people of being in a cult?
I realise you have a job to do but covering up for paedo's is sickening.

If there was no evidence why did the criminal compensation board pay Anne and Hollie compensation?

Please point out to me the lies I am supposed to have told.

the baron · 19-04-2012, 12:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by martg

still at it?
spreading lies and accusing people of being in a cult?
I realise you have a job to do but covering up for paedo's is sickening.

If there was no evidence why did the criminal compensation board pay Anne and Hollie compensation?

There was some evidence that Hollie had been raped but there is ZERO evidence of high ranking paedophile ring, establishment cover-up, Masonic conspiracy etc.

Miscarriages of justice occur and payment of compensation falls a long way short of proving a crime was committed - see the David Goodwillie case.

http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scot...rape-lies.html

martg · 19-04-2012, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the baron

There was some evidence that Hollie had been raped but there is ZERO evidence of high ranking paedophile ring, establishment cover-up, Masonic conspiracy etc.

Miscarriages of justice occur and payment of compensation falls a long way short of proving a crime was committed - see the David Goodwillie case.

http://www.thescottishsun.co.uk/scot...rape-lies.html

Yeah, yeah and Anne's brother committed suicide by setting himself on fire.

go spread your disinfo somewhere else

the baron · 19-04-2012, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmi

So Roger Hayes mixes up one word for another, when the two words mean essentially the same thing, you really are desperate.

How are we to know who the guilty are unless there is a proper investigation carried out by a police force that has shown itself to be uncorrupted ?

And what about the papers passed to the 'judge' during Robert Green's trial that had the masonic compass on the front ?

Oh of course, silly me, I wrote judge instead of sheriff, so that blows the masonic connection out of the water then?

The salient point is not Hayes confusing the terms "injunction" and "interdict" but his failure to differentiate between civil and criminal law and, much more importantly, his belief that Robert Green had not named the alleged paedophiles.

Please provide some evidence of the papers with the masonic compass.

the baron · 19-04-2012, 12:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uprising

Baron? ..Are you Greg Lance Watkins?

http://www.davidicke.com/articles/78...t-this-reason-

I am not Greg Lance-Watkins.

the baron · 19-04-2012, 12:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by uprising

That looks a good read I'll have a proper look later. My initial reaction is the questions and answers should be going on in an official enquiry where both sides can air their views.

Why else should I believe a word the alleged Paedophile says?

It's hard to tell from writing if someone is bullshitting or not.

I've heard and seen Anne give her account and feel she is being honest.

Again your post just highlights the need for this to be done properly not through blogs etc.

The only person who has alleged Wyn Dragon is a paedophile is Anne Greig. Robert Green and others have simply repeated this allegation without offering an iota of evidence.

It boils down to whether you believe either Anne Greig or Wyn Dragon. In Green's court case, Sheriff Bowen clearly believed Wyn Dragon's version of events.

How much credibility does Anne Greig have in the light of the bizarre statements emanating from the "official website" and the failure to produce any corroborative evidence ?

the baron · 19-04-2012, 12:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmi

Robert Green has been given an extremely harsh and very long prison sentence for one of the most minor legal offences that the corrupt police/judiciary could stretch the rules to stitch him up for.

At Hollie Greig's last appearance in court the judges put on full display what a sham our legal system has become when they retired for five minutes to pretend that they were 'considering' the case and on their return took forty minutes to explain their decision.

Robert Green gets put in jail and paedophiles get suspended sentences ????

How much more evidence could anyone need before waking up to the fact that there are too many perverted people running the show ?

Can you name some of these "perverted people running the show" ?

the baron · 19-04-2012, 12:59 PM

An open letter to Robert Green that will be posted to him along with my published notes.

Hello Robert.

My name is Pyrite, I am obviously anon.

I understand how you feel about anonymous individuals but please give my correspondence some consideration.

I am anon for a couple of reasons as you will see, but years ago, almost at the beginning, I was a support of HDJ but soon had some doubts and I raised some questions.

The way I was treated when did so, gave further suspicion to be concerned. I was ostracised and more recently I have been called “an agent”, a shill”, a troll”, and of course a paedophile.” Just like JT & SM.

So I left the cause thinking it would simply fizzle out.

Recently, a friend of mine suggested I should take another look as it had changed dramatically.

I was completely shocked.

Gone was the understanding that money would never be included in the cause, and donate buttons were now present almost everywhere……it seemed that HDJ had turned into a business.

Some, shall we say interesting individuals were now leading the way….with connections to charities and directorships abound.

Others it was clear were making a profit from exploiting the vulnerable and the damaged of our society.

I became anon after a number of individuals contacted me to say that they had been intimidated and had their property damaged because they too asked questions.

I have no problem in admitting that some of these individuals are frightening, and I have vulnerable people around me and I have to protect them also…….i hope you understand.

What you are about to read is a document that raises sincere questions around the HDJ campaign, and it is now present on my Facebook site. It contains facts, evidence and my interpretation of what happened given the evidence, and from talking to some of the family members like Greg Mackie, Wyn Dragon-Smith and her son Richard also.

This is only the beginning Robert because we will soon be talking with Sylvia Major also and hopefully Denis Mackie too.

Already Wyn and Richard are giving their side of the story now, and we have a website where anyone can ask direct questions to them. You see, they have had enough of the bullshit Robert and are now fighting back.

You know Robert, that you never really investigated anything, but simply took Anne’s word for much of what she said happened because you are a kind hearted yet with respect gullible gentleman. It is my understanding that you know Anne has let you down, and I can’t imagine how that must feel now you are serving time! We have exposed the many lies in her story and most individuals involved in this campaign are beginning to realise the truth. It’s difficult for them of course, but even the most hard-core supporters are now asking questions and its great they can now get direct answers from the people involved.

From a recent letter you wrote it seems you give some credence to the fact that you overheard Hollie giving a statement to the police and noted what she said in your note book.

I think you know that is not true Robert for a number of reasons.

1. There is clear evidence that Hollie is badly affected by her condition. That was clear in the edge media interview and other videos that have recently gone up on Facebook. It has also recently been confirmed by her brother Greg, and Anne’s best friend for 6 years Wyn that Hollie simply would not be able to recite the full names, addresses and job titles of the so called perpetrators. Even if she could, where would she come by that information? Are we meant to believe they introduce themselves maybe?
2. Even if it were true, saying you could hear clearly what Hollie said sitting outside the room when most people cannot understand what Hollie says when sitting right next to her seems implausible to say the least.
3. The police simply would not allow that Robert.

Included in this document is an email exchange I had recently with both Roger Hayes and Brian Gerrish.
The exchange with Roger is quite cordial but clearly shows his lack of understanding about the campaign. It’s as if he has simply jumped on the band wagon. He attempts to arrange a telephone conversation with me but it seems he backs out at the last minute because he basically did not turn up.

The exchange with Brian Gerrish however is quite the opposite. In so many words you can see he accuses me of abusing Hollie myself, and then attempts to intimidate me. I am led to believe this is somewhat a standard practise for Brian when he is challenged. Whilst I understand it’s a simple defence mechanism when anyone is challenged, Brian clearly goes too far.

Please consider my documents carefully Robert because in the main I don’t blame you for what has happened. Even Wyn has stated she feels sorry for you, but people’s lives have been decimated by this, and now the vulnerable are being exploited also.

It has to end.

Helps us put it right. Because we will, with or without you.

Kind Regards

Py.

the baron · 19-04-2012, 01:02 PM

http://stolenkids-hollie.blogspot.co...reig-cult.html

The Final Collapse Of The Hollie Greig Cult
Events of the past few days have surely dealt the final knell to the "Hollie Greig Case".

A video posted on the Hollie Demands Justice facebook page (not controlled by the cult) demonstrated Hollie's limited communication skills.

Videos from We won't allow the state to coverup the Hollie Greig paedophile scandal Two nice people facing a wall of silence - YouTube

After watching this it is difficult to conceive that Hollie could have given the full names and occupations of her alleged abusers to the police, assuming of course that the alleged abusers had disclosed their full names and occupations in the first instance.

The release of the remarks made by Sheriff Bowen when sentencing Robert Green also provide sobering reading.

It is sad to see someone of your age finding himself in this position.

Nevertheless, it is completely unacceptable in a society governed by the rule of law for an individual to take matters into their own hands. It is completely unacceptable to name people as being involved in paedophilia and murder.Making allegations of paedophilia and murder in this day and age is a very serious matter indeed.It is completely despicable. You carried on this campaign regardless of what others told having done little research into the basic facts. Only someone stupid or obsessed with their own importance would do what you have done. I suspect of you it is the latter.

By your campaign you have sought to undermine the criminal justice system and government of Scotland as a whole. But your conduct goes even further. It has a significant effect on those you allege to have been involved in this.I have listened to the evidence of 9 of those you have harassed and their families and heard about the impact this has had on them. Only the most twisted of minds would not accept their evidence.You said that you did not accept their evidence. The evidence of each of them was in it's own way a most compelling testimony.

Only the good sense of the people of Aberdeen and the responsible behaviour of the majority of the media prevented the situation from deteriorating. The law is on the side of the innocent and I must protect the innocent from you.

I should also say that you have consistently criticised the prosecuting authorities without justification. If the Crown are to be criticised for anything in this matter it is not bringing the case on indictment where you could have been subject to further penalties. You have been clear that you want to continue your campaign.

In the face of all the evidence I have no option than to sentence you to a period of imprisonment. For Charge 1 you will be sentenced to 9 months imprisonment.In relation to charge 3 you will be sentenced to a period of 3 months imprisonment, to run consecutively.

One has the choice of either accepting that Green's sentencing was entirely justified or believing that Bowen is part of some massive conspiracy of Freemasons.

The "Free Robert Green" leafleting in Aberdeen over the weekend has resulted in Green remaining in his prison cell and the establishment self-evidently NOT shaken to the core. Reports from Aberdeen tell of small groups of strange looking individuals with leaflets being widely ignored by the locals. It is a measure of the imbecility and lack of self-awareness of the Hollie Greig cult that they believe releasing a video such as this would do anything other than show them up as a laughing stock.

Belinda McKenzie sends a message of solidarity to Robert Green over the wall of Aberdeen prison - YouTube

Finally, Py Rite and The Masked Truth Seeker have carried out investigations of their own which cast serious doubt over claims made about a paedophile ring and expose the lack of knowledge of the facts of the case exhibited by cult followers Brian Gerrish, Roger Hayes and Peter Eyre.

http://robertgreenandthemissingpiece...iot-he-is.html

http://www.facebook.com/profile.php?...38021&sk=notes

godspeed · 19-04-2012, 02:37 PM

A cult...............hhhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhh hhaaaaaaaaaaa

godspeed · 19-04-2012, 02:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by the baron

Roger Hayes, organiser of the Free Robert Green leafleting last weekend which promised to shake the establishment to it's core displays his lack of even the most basic knowledge of the case in an email exchange with "Py Rite".

Robert was arrested and charged for breaching the peace - for breaking the injunction... BUT the paper work was delivered to his home on a day when he was traveling

HAYES DEMONSTRATES HIS COMPLETE IGNORANCE OF SCOTS LAW. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AN INJUNCTION - IT IS CALLED AN INTERDICT WHICH IS A CIVIL MATTER AND HAS NO CONNECTION TO THE CRIMINAL CHARGE OF BREACH OF THE PEACE.

Is there any evidence that Robert published the names... I am led to believe he did not - do you know differently?

ROBERT ACTUALLY NAMED PEOPLE ON 2ND OCTOBER 2009 IN THE QUAKER HALL IN EDINBURGH. YOU REALLY DO NEED TO DO SOME INVESTIGATING.

ONCE AGAIN THE CULT DEMONSTRATE THEIR BLATANT DISREGARD FOR FACTS AND EVIDENCE. WHEN YOU GET BEYOND THE INITIAL EMOTIONAL IMPACT OF THE STORY YOU QUICKLY DISCOVER THERE IS ACTUALLY NO EVIDENCE OF PAEDOPHILE RING, ESTABLISHMENT COVER-UP, MASONIC CONSPIRACY ETC.

Angolina is that you...........

jimmi · 19-04-2012, 03:18 PM

Brian Gerrish has said that, if you help the paedophiles cover up their abuse of children by remaining silent or turning a blind eye then you are a child abuser. (not quoted verbatim)

I agree with him.

the baron · 19-04-2012, 04:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jimmi

Brian Gerrish has said that, if you help the paedophiles cover up their abuse of children by remaining silent or turning a blind eye then you are a child abuser. (not quoted verbatim)

I agree with him.

Would this definition include those who are sceptical of some of the wilder claims made by Anne Greig ?

the baron · 19-04-2012, 04:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by godspeed

Angolina is that you...........

fo·rum/ˈfôrəm/

Noun:

1.A meeting or medium where ideas and views on a particular issue can be exchanged.

I take it that you don't have any ideas or views to counter my claims that the Hollie Greig Cult are guilty of, at the very least, exaggeration and embellishment.

martg · 19-04-2012, 04:23 PM

With an agenda as obvious as yours do you really expect anyone to take you seriously?

every single post on just one topic?

19-04-2012, 10:54 AM	#443
jimmi Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 1,976	So Roger Hayes mixes up one word for another, when the two words mean essentially the same thing, you really are desperate. How are we to know who the guilty are unless there is a proper investigation carried out by a police force that has shown itself to be uncorrupted ? And what about the papers passed to the 'judge' during Robert Green's trial that had the masonic compass on the front ? Oh of course, silly me, I wrote judge instead of sheriff, so that blows the masonic connection out of the water then? __________________ You're nothing on this forum until the trolls start misquoting you in their signatures

19-04-2012, 11:49 AM	#445
uprising Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2011 Posts: 1,078	Baron? ..Are you Greg Lance Watkins? http://www.davidicke.com/articles/78...t-this-reason- Last edited by uprising; 19-04-2012 at 11:53 AM.

19-04-2012, 03:18 PM	#457
jimmi Senior Member Join Date: Mar 2008 Posts: 1,976	Brian Gerrish has said that, if you help the paedophiles cover up their abuse of children by remaining silent or turning a blind eye then you are a child abuser. (not quoted verbatim) I agree with him. __________________ You're nothing on this forum until the trolls start misquoting you in their signatures

19-04-2012, 04:23 PM	#460
martg Senior Member Join Date: Jun 2009 Posts: 7,147	With an agenda as obvious as yours do you really expect anyone to take you seriously? every single post on just one topic? __________________ ever wanted to fly?

19-04-2012, 10:17 AM	#441
the baron Banned Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 128	Roger Hayes, organiser of the Free Robert Green leafleting last weekend which promised to shake the establishment to it's core displays his lack of even the most basic knowledge of the case in an email exchange with "Py Rite". Robert was arrested and charged for breaching the peace - for breaking the injunction... BUT the paper work was delivered to his home on a day when he was traveling HAYES DEMONSTRATES HIS COMPLETE IGNORANCE OF SCOTS LAW. THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS AN INJUNCTION - IT IS CALLED AN INTERDICT WHICH IS A CIVIL MATTER AND HAS NO CONNECTION TO THE CRIMINAL CHARGE OF BREACH OF THE PEACE. Is there any evidence that Robert published the names... I am led to believe he did not - do you know differently? ROBERT ACTUALLY NAMED PEOPLE ON 2ND OCTOBER 2009 IN THE QUAKER HALL IN EDINBURGH. YOU REALLY DO NEED TO DO SOME INVESTIGATING. ONCE AGAIN THE CULT DEMONSTRATE THEIR BLATANT DISREGARD FOR FACTS AND EVIDENCE. WHEN YOU GET BEYOND THE INITIAL EMOTIONAL IMPACT OF THE STORY YOU QUICKLY DISCOVER THERE IS ACTUALLY NO EVIDENCE OF PAEDOPHILE RING, ESTABLISHMENT COVER-UP, MASONIC CONSPIRACY ETC.

19-04-2012, 12:59 PM	#453
the baron Banned Join Date: Feb 2012 Posts: 128	An open letter to Robert Green that will be posted to him along with my published notes. Hello Robert. My name is Pyrite, I am obviously anon. I understand how you feel about anonymous individuals but please give my correspondence some consideration. I am anon for a couple of reasons as you will see, but years ago, almost at the beginning, I was a support of HDJ but soon had some doubts and I raised some questions. The way I was treated when did so, gave further suspicion to be concerned. I was ostracised and more recently I have been called “an agent”, a shill”, a troll”, and of course a paedophile.” Just like JT & SM. So I left the cause thinking it would simply fizzle out. Recently, a friend of mine suggested I should take another look as it had changed dramatically. I was completely shocked. Gone was the understanding that money would never be included in the cause, and donate buttons were now present almost everywhere……it seemed that HDJ had turned into a business. Some, shall we say interesting individuals were now leading the way….with connections to charities and directorships abound. Others it was clear were making a profit from exploiting the vulnerable and the damaged of our society. I became anon after a number of individuals contacted me to say that they had been intimidated and had their property damaged because they too asked questions. I have no problem in admitting that some of these individuals are frightening, and I have vulnerable people around me and I have to protect them also…….i hope you understand. What you are about to read is a document that raises sincere questions around the HDJ campaign, and it is now present on my Facebook site. It contains facts, evidence and my interpretation of what happened given the evidence, and from talking to some of the family members like Greg Mackie, Wyn Dragon-Smith and her son Richard also. This is only the beginning Robert because we will soon be talking with Sylvia Major also and hopefully Denis Mackie too. Already Wyn and Richard are giving their side of the story now, and we have a website where anyone can ask direct questions to them. You see, they have had enough of the bullshit Robert and are now fighting back. You know Robert, that you never really investigated anything, but simply took Anne’s word for much of what she said happened because you are a kind hearted yet with respect gullible gentleman. It is my understanding that you know Anne has let you down, and I can’t imagine how that must feel now you are serving time! We have exposed the many lies in her story and most individuals involved in this campaign are beginning to realise the truth. It’s difficult for them of course, but even the most hard-core supporters are now asking questions and its great they can now get direct answers from the people involved. From a recent letter you wrote it seems you give some credence to the fact that you overheard Hollie giving a statement to the police and noted what she said in your note book. I think you know that is not true Robert for a number of reasons. 1. There is clear evidence that Hollie is badly affected by her condition. That was clear in the edge media interview and other videos that have recently gone up on Facebook. It has also recently been confirmed by her brother Greg, and Anne’s best friend for 6 years Wyn that Hollie simply would not be able to recite the full names, addresses and job titles of the so called perpetrators. Even if she could, where would she come by that information? Are we meant to believe they introduce themselves maybe? 2. Even if it were true, saying you could hear clearly what Hollie said sitting outside the room when most people cannot understand what Hollie says when sitting right next to her seems implausible to say the least. 3. The police simply would not allow that Robert. Included in this document is an email exchange I had recently with both Roger Hayes and Brian Gerrish. The exchange with Roger is quite cordial but clearly shows his lack of understanding about the campaign. It’s as if he has simply jumped on the band wagon. He attempts to arrange a telephone conversation with me but it seems he backs out at the last minute because he basically did not turn up. The exchange with Brian Gerrish however is quite the opposite. In so many words you can see he accuses me of abusing Hollie myself, and then attempts to intimidate me. I am led to believe this is somewhat a standard practise for Brian when he is challenged. Whilst I understand it’s a simple defence mechanism when anyone is challenged, Brian clearly goes too far. Please consider my documents carefully Robert because in the main I don’t blame you for what has happened. Even Wyn has stated she feels sorry for you, but people’s lives have been decimated by this, and now the vulnerable are being exploited also. It has to end. Helps us put it right. Because we will, with or without you. Kind Regards Py.

19-04-2012, 02:37 PM	#455
godspeed Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2007 Posts: 2,054	A cult...............hhhhhhhhhhhhaaaaaaaaaaaaahhhhhh hhaaaaaaaaaaa