Marriage and Children - Good vs. Bad Reasons

[wwu777]

Hi all,
Perhaps this tree, grass, cloud analogy will help you understand where I'm coming from:

Earlier today while I was on the treadmill, thinking of something interesting to pass the time while watching the timer in front of me lol, I realized something: Most people aren't like me, are they? We all tend to assume and hold the fallacy that others are like us and want the same things we do, but they don't.

One of my advisors said this before:

Quoting one of my lady friends, there are 3 types of people: grass, tree, and cloud.

Grass types are happy when they find a nice sunny field to plant their roots.

Cloud types are more fickle, they change shape and move with the wind. They're happy when they're moving to new and exciting places.

Tree types plant their roots, but can grow tall into the sky. They can understand grass and cloud, but belong to neither.

If you find yourself in the sky as a cloud, looking down and wondering how all the grass can stand being rooted down, you should probably consider that they're looking up and wondering how you could stand being blown around by the wind.

I think he's right. I'm definitely a cloud type, which why I built an online residual income operation. But most people are like trees in that they seek to plant roots, become tied down, and live a safe solid routine. Have you noticed this? I think there are three types of people in this regard:

1. The first type is always looking to plant roots wherever they go, even if they are in a bad place with more cons than pros. They are eager to quickly settle down and establish a home that they can be in everyday. They seek a nest by nature. They live for routine. Adventure and freedom is just an amusing fantasy to them that they see on TV or read about. They don't really need it. They prefer predictability. They are more than willing to be tied down in exchange for a safe home, job, family, marriage, regular friends, etc.

2. The second type likes to have freedom, but also likes to plant roots. They need a little of both, more or less. They like some adventure once in a while, but don't mind settling down as long as they are happy with their environment, living conditions, and the people around them. They like having time to themselves to enjoy freedom, but also like having some roots and structure as well. They will accept a stable home, job and marriage, as long as they are compatible with it.

3. The third type (me) are the total freedom junkies. These types dislike all forms of external control, long term obligations, permanent attachments, etc. To them, settling down is like binding yourself to a prison with a ball and chain. It's ok for a while, but becomes suffocating eventually. They need to feel free to roam and eject burdens from their mind. Every burden, commitment or obligation feels like a threat to them. These are the wanderlust types who are perpetual travelers and nomads at heart. They can endure short term commitments, but long term or permanent ones scare them and threaten to imprison them. They can never give up their freedom, which is their most cherished thing, not even for a lover. To them, freedom is like air - they can't live without it.

Most people are type 1 or 2. I think I am a type 3. Society only acknowledges the existence of type 1 and 2, but not 3. The thing is, only type 2 and 3 can really appreciate me and understand me. But type 1 will never understand or relate to me. Society is built around type 1 and 2 (which are tree and grass), but type 3 types have to find their own way and learn to think outside the box to accommodate their lifestyle.

What do you think? What types are you all of you?

[armoured_amazon]

Three, definitely. Maybe at some point I'll plant roots - as trees do! - but I won't stick 'em in any old soil.

Haha, type three, I meant. But maybe I'd like to be a tree later.

[spectero666]

Three also for me.

[armoured_amazon]

Originally Posted by wwu777

Truth is, I'd rather be happy and free, with everyone's disapproval, then be unhappy and miserable and have everyone's approval. There's no contest.

Me too.

Originally Posted by spectero666

I'm not a dude...your not going to convince me to bring another consumer into this fucking mess.....I don't need another entity to make me feel worthwhile.

That's the crux of it, though few are brave enough to admit it.

[wwu777]

Originally Posted by tamlinn

That's it, you have me convinced. I have realized that after having my children, that they are enslaving me. I'm dropping them off at family services and going to travel the world.

LOL well then good luck then and have a good trip. Congrats on taking control of your life and braving the wonderful journey ahead of you. lol :P

Btw, you might want to see this movie with Julia Roberts first for inspiration. It's called "Eat Pray Love" where she travels the world to escape the rut of life. Here is the trailer for it.

Watch the Official EAT PRAY LOVE Trailer in HD - YouTube

Watch the Official EAT PRAY LOVE Trailer in HD - YouTube

If you can't find the film at your rental store, then just download it from PirateBay or a torrent site. It's a great film about escaping the rut life and traveling the world. Very inspirational.

[tamlinn]

I've seen the movie, interesting for a bit, then boring, and by the end she ends up in pretty much the same place she was at the beginning. She had no children so leaving her marriage and going off travelling is hardly that earth shaking. She ends up married again, just to another man.

I wasn't serious about dumping my children into foster homes and taking off. Come on. I never knew what love was until I had them, and could not be happy away from them for long. If other people don't want that that is fine, but I will say that some of my single, childless friends in their forties seem to have pretty empty lives. All they do is work, pay their bills and sit in the pub. They say that travelling is pretty boring after awhile when you are doing it alone. My oldest daughter who is now adult is a great companion and we plan on doing some trips together in the future. To each their own.

[jelly]

Originally Posted by wwu777

What do you mean walk away? I am living freely by traveling the world. I do not see my son everyday or every month. I still do what I want, but I provide support to him. My son lives in a third world country, where cost of living is much cheaper than it is in the US or UK. So he's not a huge financial burden. But he is certainly the most needy codependent toddler I've ever seen.

Truth is, I'd rather be happy and free, with everyone's disapproval, then be unhappy and miserable and have everyone's approval. There's no contest.

To be honest though, the reason I wanted a child was because I felt empty without one, which is natural. So if I didn't have one, I'd regret it too. It's one of those things I regret either way. Life often puts you between a rock and a hard place. Many decisions in life are not win-lose or win-win. Often they result in regret either way.

Perhaps he is needy because his father walk out on him?! Which in a way i am glad you did, because between this post and your abortion based one my opinion of you is very low. While i admire your emotional honesty, i feel deeply saddened by your selfish narcissistic attitude and feel greatly for your son. You may not care that your actions and lack of action are damaging to your son, but he most certainly will. An innocent soul damaged by the self absorbed. I just hope his mother's love makes up for the hole you have left.
I understand that you will not care that i find what you have to say hard to hear, and yes, i admit i can not help but judge you. Although it takes courage to be so open, especially about such a taboo subject, i still can not get past the legacy left for your child.

[armoured_amazon]

Originally Posted by tamlinn

I've seen the movie, interesting for a bit, then boring, and by the end she ends up in pretty much the same place she was at the beginning. She had no children so leaving her marriage and going off travelling is hardly that earth shaking. She ends up married again, just to another man.

I wasn't serious about dumping my children into foster homes and taking off. Come on. I never knew what love was until I had them, and could not be happy away from them for long. If other people don't want that that is fine, but I will say that some of my single, childless friends in their forties seem to have pretty empty lives. All they do is work, pay their bills and sit in the pub. They say that travelling is pretty boring after awhile when you are doing it alone. My oldest daughter who is now adult is a great companion and we plan on doing some trips together in the future. To each their own.

That's a matter of opinion and choices, though. For example, if I have kids, I certainly won't be shackled down to the morning and evening school run, my kids parroting the National Curriculum, stuck in one little neighbourhood, same routine day in, day out, like my neighbours. My kids will see the world, learn languages, have experiences. How many parents bother do that? Very few. Love is X Boxes and flat screen LCD TVs, mobile phones, and MuckDonald's. I have friends with children who've had richer lives than many adults. I also have childfree friends with rich lives, too. If one only has meaning because they birthed something, that's not really an enriched life to me. Maybe some humans are here to have a wide range of experiences and others are here to propagate the race. Both can enjoy their lot and seldom will wish for the lot of the other.

[spectero666]

Originally Posted by armoured_amazon

Maybe some humans are here to have a wide range of experiences and others are here to propagate the race. Both can enjoy their lot and seldom will wish for the lot of the other.

True....

[tamlinn]

Or maybe there are just different stages of life. For most, childrearing takes about twenty years. Once they are grown, there is still plenty of time to do the things you want to do. People go into a nesting stage but then that passes.

[unsyatisfied]

Originally Posted by wwu777

Hi all,
Perhaps this tree, grass, cloud analogy will help you understand where I'm coming from:

Earlier today while I was on the treadmill, thinking of something interesting to pass the time while watching the timer in front of me lol, I realized something: Most people aren't like me, are they? We all tend to assume and hold the fallacy that others are like us and want the same things we do, but they don't.

One of my advisors said this before:



I think he's right. I'm definitely a cloud type, which why I built an online residual income operation. But most people are like trees in that they seek to plant roots, become tied down, and live a safe solid routine. Have you noticed this? I think there are three types of people in this regard:

1. The first type is always looking to plant roots wherever they go, even if they are in a bad place with more cons than pros. They are eager to quickly settle down and establish a home that they can be in everyday. They seek a nest by nature. They live for routine. Adventure and freedom is just an amusing fantasy to them that they see on TV or read about. They don't really need it. They prefer predictability. They are more than willing to be tied down in exchange for a safe home, job, family, marriage, regular friends, etc.

2. The second type likes to have freedom, but also likes to plant roots. They need a little of both, more or less. They like some adventure once in a while, but don't mind settling down as long as they are happy with their environment, living conditions, and the people around them. They like having time to themselves to enjoy freedom, but also like having some roots and structure as well. They will accept a stable home, job and marriage, as long as they are compatible with it.

3. The third type (me) are the total freedom junkies. These types dislike all forms of external control, long term obligations, permanent attachments, etc. To them, settling down is like binding yourself to a prison with a ball and chain. It's ok for a while, but becomes suffocating eventually. They need to feel free to roam and eject burdens from their mind. Every burden, commitment or obligation feels like a threat to them. These are the wanderlust types who are perpetual travelers and nomads at heart. They can endure short term commitments, but long term or permanent ones scare them and threaten to imprison them. They can never give up their freedom, which is their most cherished thing, not even for a lover. To them, freedom is like air - they can't live without it.

Most people are type 1 or 2. I think I am a type 3. Society only acknowledges the existence of type 1 and 2, but not 3. The thing is, only type 2 and 3 can really appreciate me and understand me. But type 1 will never understand or relate to me. Society is built around type 1 and 2 (which are tree and grass), but type 3 types have to find their own way and learn to think outside the box to accommodate their lifestyle.

What do you think? What types are you all of you?

I'd definitely fit the cloud type. And that's why I have no children and never been married. My biological father left my mother before I was born which makes me a mistake and deep down I struggle to forgive him for that, and my mother should also share a certain amount of the blame for irresponsibly bringing me into this hell hole. But at least she did her best to make it right and put a roof over my head and feed me. Ultimately, it's hard to respect someone that has kids and doesn't realise the level of maturity and responsibility required to meet the demands of the child they are bringing into the world.

[spectero666]

Originally Posted by tamlinn

Or maybe there are just different stages of life. For most, childrearing takes about twenty years. Once they are grown, there is still plenty of time to do the things you want to do. People go into a nesting stage but then that passes.

Yeah but you've wasted 20 years playing mother hen....and wasted thousands of pounds on producing more consumers... real contribution to human history thanks for that.

[tamlinn]

If a waste is how you look at it, then you shouldn't have children. Simple. Other people find it to be incredibly fulfilling.

[spectero666]

Originally Posted by tamlinn

Other people find it to be incredibly fulfilling.

Yes....because they are too scared to live their own lives.....

[guevarista]

I just finished the Op I thought it was good, I agree with most of the points in it, but get the impression it wasn't written by somebody who has tried these things and is writing from experience.

In that regard I wonder if the intent behind the piece is not to rationalise or reinforce a personal isolation from others or a sense of being alienated from nature and natural drives, ie happiness, reciprocity, creation of life etc?

The reason I ask is that the tone of the article especially in relation to reasons FOR marriage and procreation is very combative, when there is an obvious middle ground that you seem to ignore?

I also think you neglect that without procreation or the natural drive to procreate, whether it is called love, marriage, dependence etc, you wouldn't be here.

I think you're attitude towards children is quite selfish and entirely subjective to you, rather than think you are ENSLAVED to a child, I look at it this way, you are accepting you have a natural duty to love and nurture this vulnerable innocent little thing, it is this inherent morality you are enslaved to, not the child, pet or friend, it is the internal desire to share and experience others and the parts of ourselves they embody that "enslaves/I prefer compels us to devote our time to them.

There is a consensus on how it is done, and I can see how that would correlate with your negative perception; seeking to control the uninhibited curiosity of a vulnerable, sentient, naturally explorative lifeform is a struggle, to experience it should be an honour, not a chore, or even more depressingly "a drain on resources", fuck resources man, life is worth more than resources, and it's only the way we try to construct all these walls, regulations, rules and constraints on children that makes them difficult.

I try and let children raise me, back out of the abyss of logic, intellect, ego, self obsession etc, they are refreshing and pure crystal streams of genuine magic, and if there were more of them the world would be a better place, they help us forget what life isn't about: self obsession, money, time or resources

[tamlinn]

Originally Posted by spectero666

Yes....because they are too scared to live their own lives.....

I guess you could say the same thing to all the people who pair up into relationships, or even have pets. I know a single man who has a dog that runs his life. Always has to drop what he's doing to go home and let the dog outside.

[tamlinn]

Originally Posted by guevarista

I try and let children raise me, back out of the abyss of logic, intellect, ego, self obsession etc, they are refreshing and pure crystal streams of genuine magic, and if there were more of them the world would be a better place, they help us forget what life isn't about: self obsession, money, time or resources

Yes.

[guevarista]

Originally Posted by tamlinn

Yes.

They don't need it they just need other humans and the gifts of nature and haven't learned to deny that fact yet

[guevarista]

Originally Posted by spectero666

I despise children, They make me want to puke....grubby handed...disease riddled jellyheads...EWWW....there is enough scum in the world as it is...without popping out more of the freaks....I will never be a breeder EVER....and i would only marry for money.

WOuld you be a surrogate mother for money?

[armoured_amazon]

Yes, people breed and inflict their kids on other people, I can't stand most - well, I was going to say kids in public, that's a lie. I can't stand their useless parents who don't know how to make them behave. This whole put your life on hold for decades to raise another useless eater doesn't grab me. Integrating children into your already fulfilling life is fine. But most people are nothing without their mother/father label. And so many women 'accidentally' fall pregnant to ensnare men, and even if they stick around, the children know their fathers would rather be elsewhere and their mothers are codependent fools.

I can put money on not a single child from the women who look down on me for choosing life before breeding, not a single one will ever make a difference to the world, other than to drain it (and pay taxes). And this is not me disliking children, it's me telling mothers their children are only special to them. So your kid gave you grandkids, big deal.

I can't respect anyone who doesn't strive to do anything with their lives other than what they were biologically equipped to do anyway. I truly can't. I know it's 'cause I was raised to excel; others weren't. The way I see it, if your only raison d'etre is to breed, may's well just sit in a cage and keep busting them out and leave the rest of the planet to people who want to explore it. And I'm well aware I won't get respect back from the mummy mills and that's more than fine. Having children is a nice addition to life, but it doesn't make you special in anyone's eyes other than your child's. If you're lucky. There's no medal for fertilising your eggs.