Either OBEs are real or everyone is lying

[kiolm]

Originally Posted by openwide

I'm assuming you don't just believe everything you percieve therefore you must have at least some methods of distinguishing truth from fiction. The question is are you applying these methods in proportion to the weight of these beliefs or is there a special pleading, confirmation bias, leap of faith etc. which is fueling your belief.

It's all fiction. Every damn bit.

Here's the thing. People want to believe in a after life......The fact is the afterlife as we call it, is the real world and this is just a computer game.

[kiolm]

Originally Posted by openwide

So how do personally distinguish truth from a lie if this applies to everything? I mean surely you don't just believe everything everyone tells you based on this so you must have some other basic rational thought and logic at work which your not expressing, maybe through fear of losing your comforting belief.

Again it's all a lie. I understand it's hard to grip at a certain age.

[openwide]

Originally Posted by kiolm

Again it's all a lie. I understand it's hard to grip at a certain age.

So 1+1=2 is a lie just as much as 1+1=3?

[crypticmystic]

42 is the answer

[dreamingod]

Originally Posted by openwide

If you can OBE why not demonstrate it by revealing something in a locked room etc. if it could be replicated in test condition it would be one of mankinds greatest discoveries! whats stopping you?

=============
This is my reply post from another forum:
=============


Michael Persinger on No More Secrets

This video is great as it provides insight on the neural activity of the brain during instances of remote viewing & precognition.
The data suggests that the ideal condition to enable anybody to access the collective information is during the absence of geomagnetic storms,
and when one's right brain hemisphere activity is at 7 hertz; in congruence with the Earth's magnetic field - Schumann Resonance also 7 hertz.
This understanding also supports out of body experiences, phasing, lucid dreaming, occuring at Theta states of consciousness (4-7hertz)

Michael Persinger on No More Secrets


??? While this materialist position provides insight to how the brain and neural activity link to the Earth's Magnetic Field,
it does not explain where is the seat Of consciousness in people who experience Near Death Experiences (no brain activity).
http://www.in5d.com/forum/index.php?...sg4299#msg4299


Approximatley one quarter of 'Michael Persinger on No More Secrets' video references Ingo Swann,
the famous Remote Viewer and artist (who considers himself a consciousness researcher).
Ingo did not restrict his remote viewing (non-local perception) to Earth, he also remote viewed other planets and the moon.
For instance in 1973, Ingo Swann remote viewed and correctly discribed Jupiter before NASA-technology was able to
explore Jupiter and validate the information.
http://www.remoteviewed.com/remote_viewing_jupiter.htm
This suggests that consciousness in not just linked to the Earth's magnetic field.

While scientists have one way of interpreting the data from brain studies.
Ingo Swann, the direct participant obviously thinks of consciousness in an expansive way when he wrote his book "Reality Boxes"
and talks about how he is planning his next body, his next life (youtube videos).

In the below video Ingo Swann cites the 'Scientific American' magazine, scientisits and astronomers are discovering that
matter only accounts for only 4-7% of the universe; dark energy makes up the rest. Matter is not the only reality.
Ingo Swann - Human Super Sensitivities and the Future - 3/8

Ingo Swann - Human Super Sensitivities and the Future - 3/8

Ingo Swann - Human Super Sensitivities and the Future - 3/8

Stephan A. Schwartz, a journalist, analyst for the government and researcher has been following
the trends in consciousness for many years.
He explains how non-local consciousness is an aspect of each of us that is not limited to space and time.
During remote viewing (non-local perception), meditative states, spiritual epiphany, moments of genius, precognition, deja vu,
gut feeling, near death experiences, we can access the collective information (some mystics call it the Akashic Record)
present just below waking consciousness.
He thinks that all these experiences are the same thing modulated by context.

The video is at the bottom of the page: http://www.stephanaschwartz.com/.
Article: http://media.noetic.org/uploads/file...nfinite_lr.pdf


;D Learn to remote view here. Anyone can. http://www.remoteviewed.com/
Remote viewing online community & forum. Practise here: http://www.dojopsi.info/forum/


btw - 'Akashic Record' and the 'non-local consciousness' information are both metaphors for the collective information.

=========

Again, instead of asking others to prove something that only through having these OOBEs, phasing experiences -now adding non-local perception (remote viewing) can you gain insight & new perspective.

Do it yourself.

The external 'perceived' reality is all an illusion.
In fact you are not even in your bodies, this can be proven by having phasing experiences. Bruce Lipton, biologist also came up with similar conclusions. I suggest you read his book or watch his videos:
http://www.in5d.com/forum/index.php?...81.msg4321#new





Anyway it is good that you question everything before believing it.
Now test the belief systems:

Go here & meet numerous others who had OOBE, phased & lucid dreamed.
Help and good advice is offered here to achieve these experiences: http://www.astralpulse.com/forums/index.php

~

[evarett]

you are all still arguing about this?

can you be anymore chandler

[isabeau]

Originally Posted by kiolm

It's all fiction. Every damn bit.

Here's the thing. People want to believe in a after life......The fact is the afterlife as we call it, is the real world and this is just a computer game.

Agreed. I just wish I'd picked a better looking avatar

[openwide]

Just because we experience reality subjectively this doesn't therefore rule out things having an objective form.

Belief does affect our perception of reality but if its completely based on belief how do you explain that we hold beliefs that don't manifest and things manifest which we didn't believe in?

Not everything can be called an illusion because if nothing is what we call real then the term illusion holds no meaning. All your doing is putting everything on a different but equal par.

I've not heard anyone approach the idea of paradox either which gives us reason to believe not everything is possible.

I don't believe people are being honest with themselves regarding this idea, I'm not convinced that you guys hold an equal belief in everything (which is to be expected if you believe everything is as real as everything esle), I think that really you hold varying degrees of belief in things based on different ideas just like everyone else does but you don't want to elaborate on that for fear of exposing logical fallacies and special pleading. I think you've stopped looking into it at the point where your satisfied and you think your idea of a subjective reality is ironclad and can justify belief in anything.

[jconnar]

Chaos Magic seems to deal with bending the beliefs of the magician in order to bend reality.

[openwide]

Originally Posted by jconnar

Chaos Magic seems to deal with bending the beliefs of the magician in order to bend reality.

How do they do that? It sounds very difficult to try and change your beliefs.

[loveisthelaw]

Originally Posted by tortle

There are whole forums dedicated to OBEs, and hundreds of people saying that they are having OBEs and talking about their experiences.

Are they all lying or deluded? They can't all be, these are independent individuals across the internet telling their experiences.

OBEs are as real as IBEs

[openwide]

Originally Posted by tortle

There are whole forums dedicated to OBEs, and hundreds of people saying that they are having OBEs and talking about their experiences.

Are they all lying or deluded? They can't all be, these are independent individuals across the internet telling their experiences.

Lets say OBE's do exist, there would still be people claiming to have had one that are lying or believe they have but are under a delusion, therefore your statement is incorrect and also how would you know your not under some sort of delusion?

[speed of light]

Originally Posted by openwide

Lets say OBE's do exist, there would still be people claiming to have had one that are lying or believe they have but are under a delusion, therefore your statement is incorrect and also how would you know your not under some sort of delusion?

its pointless trying to look at obes from a physical perspective, an obe is a non physical personal experience, a delusion only to the concious left brain 'educated' mind

[openwide]

Originally Posted by speed of light

its pointless trying to look at obes from a physical perspective, an obe is a non physical personal experience, a delusion only to the concious left brain 'educated' mind

So are you claiming all OBE's are real and there can't possibly be anyone who has had an experience that they are mistaking for an OBE?

Of course there is so both my following points are still valid.

1. If OBE's do exist, there would still be people claiming to have had one that are lying or believe they have but are under a delusion, therefore the opening statement of this thread (that they are either all real or eveyone is lying) is incorrect.

2. How would you know your not one of these people under some sort of delusion?

[speed of light]

Originally Posted by openwide

So are you claiming all OBE's are real and there can't possibly be anyone who has had an experience that they are mistaking for an OBE?

Of course there is so both my following points are still valid.

1. If OBE's do exist, there would still be people claiming to have had one that are lying or believe they have but are under a delusion, therefore the opening statement of this thread (that they are either all real or eveyone is lying) is incorrect.

2. How would you know your not one of these people under some sort of delusion?

like i said, to the left brain 'educated' mind i AM deluded, because my experience makes me hold my belief despite being contradicted by what is generally accepted as reality.as for claiming that all obes are real, im not, but what is real? an experience out of the norm or paranormal is never going to be accepted by majority of people on this planet because its the old 'seeing is believing' scenario. im of open mind, i accept the possibility of all possibilitys

[openwide]

Originally Posted by speed of light

like i said, to the left brain 'educated' mind i AM deluded, because my experience makes me hold my belief despite being contradicted by what is generally accepted as reality.as for claiming that all obes are real, im not, but what is real? an experience out of the norm or paranormal is never going to be accepted by majority of people on this planet because its the old 'seeing is believing' scenario. im of open mind, i accept the possibility of all possibilitys

Exactly its indistinguishable and you haven't resonded to my first point that either way the opening statement of this thread is invalid.

[speed of light]

Originally Posted by openwide

Exactly its indistinguishable and you haven't resonded to my first point that either way the opening statement of this thread is invalid.

Yes i agree the opening statement is invalid, an experience is always real to the person having it.because if someone says they had an obe what they are saying is that they had an concious experience of being in another place whilst aware that their physical body was sleeping, so they are not lying about the experience, and the experience was real. but in physical terms the statement should be 'are we able to mentally travel out of our body to other dimensions/planes/ or even this physical universe or is it nothing but an illusion caused by the physical activity within the brain, if the latter is the case then i must ask who am i, am i my brain? if i am my brain then why have i no control over the images and places that i see when i go to sleep, where is my brain getting all this detail from?

[openwide]

Originally Posted by speed of light

Yes i agree the opening statement is invalid, an experience is always real to the person having it.because if someone says they had an obe what they are saying is that they had an concious experience of being in another place whilst aware that their physical body was sleeping, so they are not lying about the experience, and the experience was real. but in physical terms the statement should be 'are we able to mentally travel out of our body to other dimensions/planes/ or even this physical universe or is it nothing but an illusion caused by the physical activity within the brain, if the latter is the case then i must ask who am i, am i my brain? if i am my brain then why have i no control over the images and places that i see when i go to sleep, where is my brain getting all this detail from?

Everything we experience is subjective so I'm sure we can agree that it is impossible to know for sure how or if something exists in an objective form.

But we can distinguish our experiences in a relative sense for example;

If you had an OBE and saw a car accident miles from where your body is then you could then distinguish wether this did actually happen or not within your state of reality at least. Either way the OBE seems just as real but in a relative sense we can say the example in which there was a car accident is "more real" than the other, wouldn't you agree?

I think consciousness is an experience, a phenomena in itself which arises from certain condition within a brain I don't see how this experience could exist outside of this, like having a fire without heat, oxygen or fuel.

[speed of light]

Originally Posted by openwide

I think consciousness is an experience, a phenomena in itself which arises from certain condition within a brain I don't see how this experience could exist outside of this, like having a fire without heat, oxygen or fuel.

have to dissagree, i believe that consciousness exists outside of the brain, theres no way my brain could make up all the experiences i have when asleep, the brain and consciousness have to be separate, there must be an outside source that my brain connects to.

[openwide]

Originally Posted by speed of light

have to dissagree, i believe that consciousness exists outside of the brain, theres no way my brain could make up all the experiences i have when asleep, the brain and consciousness have to be separate, there must be an outside source that my brain connects to.

I'm a little confused by what you think the consciousness and brain are and what they do, could you clarify this?

I believe consciousness is an experience within the conditions of a brain, both the brain and consciousness affect each other and both are affected by external sources, theres no need here for the consciousness to somehow seperate itself from the brain to retrieve external sources.

Plus when you also take into account that most of the info we recieve never reaches the conscious mind its very easy to see why we can have experiences such as dreams and delusions which we don't feel our brains are responsible for and therefore think are real.