Concrete evidence gulag death camps

[lightgiver]

I really don't see much photographic and video evidence just a lot of written down propaganda...

can someone actually show some real concrete proof that these death camps actually existed...

ES...That's close to 70 million Russians killed ..where is the concrete evidence...

Maybe its just another Hoax.

[torus]

I could provide you with a copy of a letter from the Soviet archives in which Stalin orders the murder of approx. 12,000 persons. That's a far cry from the alleged 12,000,000 who perished in Soviet "labour camps". Only the Soviets could be that fucking stupid. In the stupid, utopian dreams of the "workers paradise", they liquidate all that labor capital with nothing to show for it.

[lightgiver]

Originally Posted by torus

I could provide you with a copy of a letter from the Soviet archives in which Stalin orders the murder of approx. 12,000 persons. That's a far cry from the alleged 12,000,000 who perished in Soviet "labour camps". Only the Soviets could be that fucking stupid. In the stupid, utopian dreams of the "workers paradise", they liquidate all that labor capital with nothing to show for it.

Lets see it then...Its got to be concrete mind you.. a forgery will not suffice.

[rorschach]

some pictures of hard working russians, unlike the nazis russians didnt use slave labour .


some woman gather for a chin wag around the central heating system ,notice the quilts on those beds


a shower cubicle each

some miners wrapped up well against the cold have a chat while they work




if this was stalin at his worst no wonder he got a state funeral ,
loved by his family his son fought the nazis until his capture .

[rorschach]

ooh those gulags look scary

[torus]

Originally Posted by lightgiver

Lets see it then...Its got to be concrete mind you.. a forgery will not suffice.

That's no big whoop, it's public knowledge from the Soviet archives. The "copy" of which I speak is featured in Zbigniew Brzezinski's "Out of Control - Global Turmoil on the Eve of the 21st Century". Not to worry though, Zbig supports the "official" story of the "holocaust in his spirited writings, makes no mention of gas chambers, and spares no punches as he delivers a knock-out blow to the cranium of that ghastly hulk known as Communism.

The beauty is, not a single Stalinist functionary, thug, torturer, concentration camp commandant has ever been placed on trial for Stalinist atrocities, with a mass murderer like Lazar Kaganovich retiring on a juicy state pension. Not only that; to deny the extent of, or to minimalize Soviet atrocities will not have you deported, thrown into solitary in a Canadian prison for a 2 years, only to be manacled and hauled off to Germany for another 5 years in prison. There's FAR less emotive energy attached to the greatest mass murderers in all of history.

And I'm a 5 Star Olympian moron for regurgitating the ghouls of the past...

[lightgiver]

Originally Posted by torus

That's no big whoop, it's public knowledge from the Soviet archives. The "copy" of which I speak is featured in Zbigniew Brzezinski's "Out of Control - Global Turmoil on the Eve of the 21st Century". Not to worry though, Zbig supports the "official" story of the "holocaust in his spirited writings, makes no mention of gas chambers, and spares no punches as he delivers a knock-out punch to the cranium of that ghastly hulk known as Communism.

The beauty is, not a single Stalinist functionary, thug, torturer, concentration camp commandant has ever been placed on trial, with a mass murderer like Lazar Kaganovich retiring on a juicy state pension. Not only that; to deny the extent of, or to minimalize Soviet atrocities will not have you deported, thrown into solitary in a Canadian prison for a 2 years, only to be manacled and hauled off to Germany for another 5 years in prison. There's FAR less emotive energy attached to the greatest mass murderers in all of history.

And I'm a 5 Star Olympian moron for regurgitating the ghouls of the past...

Lets see that document or letter ...

Originally Posted by torus

I could provide you with a copy of a letter from the Soviet archives in which Stalin orders the murder of approx. 12,000 persons. .

[torus]

sorry, 25,000

Decision of 5.III.1940 - The Case of NKVD USSR

I.To Convey to the NKVD USSR

1) the files of 14,700 persons contained in camps for prisoners of war: former Polish officers, officials, landowners, policemen, intelligence officials, gendarmes, settlers and criminals,

2) as well as the files of 11,00 persons arrested and placed in prisons in the western regions of Ukraine and Belorussia: members of various counterrevolutionary, espionage and diversionary organizations, former landowners, factory owners, former Polish officers, officials and refugees - to resolve through a special process, applying to them the highest penalty: shooting.

II. The cases are to be resolved without summoning the arrested and without presenting to them the indictments, the decisions to close the investigations and the verdict according to the following procedure:

a) regarding the persons held in camps for prisoners of war on the basis of data presented by the Administration for Prisoners of War of the NKVD USSR,

b) regarding persons arrested on the basis of the data presented by the NKVD of the Ukranian SSR and the NKVD of the Belorussian SSR.

III. Resolution of the cases and the handing down of the verdict is to be entrusted to the troika of comrades composed of: Merkulov, Kabulov, and Bashatov (head of the first Special Department of the NKVD USSR),

(signed) Secretary of the C.C. J. Stalin

__________________________________________________ ___

"That was all. With one scrap of paper, containing the brief phrase "applying to them the highest penalty: shooting" more than 25,000 lives (representing in this particular case the social elite of a country) were wiped out. On a much more massive scale, this procedure was repeated for several years for hundreds of thousands of Soviet citizens, not to mentions the millions that also perished through exhaustion, starvation, and maltreatment in the Gulag."
-Out of Control

[torus]

The liquidation orders above were from "protocol 13 of March 5, 1940" drafted during a meeting of the politburo.

[lightgiver]

Originally Posted by torus

sorry, 25,000

Decision of 5.III.1940 - The Case of NKVD USSR

I.To Convey to the NKVD USSR

1) the files of 14,700 persons contained in camps for prisoners of war: former Polish officers, officials, landowners, policemen, intelligence officials, gendarmes, settlers and criminals,

2) as well as the files of 11,00 persons arrested and placed in prisons in the western regions of Ukraine and Belorussia: members of various counterrevolutionary, espionage and diversionary organizations, former landowners, factory owners, former Polish officers, officials and refugees - to resolve through a special process, applying to them the highest penalty: shooting.

II. The cases are to be resolved without summoning the arrested and without presenting to them the indictments, the decisions to close the investigations and the verdict according to the following procedure:

a) regarding the persons held in camps for prisoners of war on the basis of data presented by the Administration for Prisoners of War of the NKVD USSR,

b) regarding persons arrested on the basis of the data presented by the NKVD of the Ukranian SSR and the NKVD of the Belorussian SSR.

III. Resolution of the cases and the handing down of the verdict is to be entrusted to the troika of comrades composed of: Merkulov, Kabulov, and Bashatov (head of the first Special Department of the NKVD USSR),

(signed) Secretary of the C.C. J. Stalin

__________________________________________________ ___

"That was all. With one scrap of paper, containing the brief phrase "applying to them the highest penalty: shooting" more than 25,000 lives (representing in this particular case the social elite of a country) were wiped out. On a much more massive scale, this procedure was repeated for several years for hundreds of thousands of Soviet citizens, not to mentions the millions that also perished through exhaustion, starvation, and maltreatment in the Gulag."
-Out of Control

With one scrap of paper..so where is it then

[torus]

Originally Posted by lightgiver

With one scrap of paper..so where is it then

I would imagine it's still in the archives? But I haven't seen it OR a gas chamber.

On another scrap of paper, Brzezinski writes,

"of those killed in twentieth-century wars, approximately 33,000,000 were young men, mostly between the ages of eighteen and thirty...The two world wars are counted to have consumed at least 8,500,000 and 19,000,000 military lives, respectively. Other wars elsewhere in this century caused an additional 6,000,000 or so military fatalities.

Civilian casualties - as actual by-product of hostilities - accounted for about 13,000,000 women, children, and older men during World War I and for about 20,000,000 during WWII, to which must be added the estimated 15,000,000 civilian Chinese deaths in the Sino-Japanese war which started prior to WW II."

[lightgiver]

Originally Posted by torus

I would imagine it's still in the archives?

Thats convenient.

Originally Posted by torus

On another scrap of paper, Brzezinski writes,

"

Another scrap of paper

Still no concrete proof then.

[torus]

Originally Posted by lightgiver

thats convenient.

still no concrete proof then.

none

[lightgiver]

Originally Posted by torus

none

None at all...

Originally Posted by torus

I could provide you with a copy of a letter from the Soviet archives in which Stalin orders the murder of approx. 12,000 persons. That's a far cry from the alleged 12,000,000 who perished in Soviet "labour camps".

[torus]

Originally Posted by lightgiver

None at all...

Yet Brzezinski supports the "6,000,000", well, what he says is, "Hitler caused the deliberate killing of over 5,000,000 Jews" and asserts that a detailed breakdown with "precise tables" and "supporting data" are to be found in Hilberg's writings.

Brzezinski also asserts that,

"The opening of the secret Soviet archives - and also of the archives of some of the formerly Communist East European states - as well as open access to hitherto withheld socio-economic statistics reveal that communist totalitarianism was more criminal, more brutal, and socially more destructive than alleged by even its most severe critics."

Some of communism's critics include myself, Goebels, Hitler, and Pius XII.

what's it prove y'all?

[lightgiver]

Originally Posted by torus

Yet Brzezinski supports the "6,000,000", well, what he says is, "Hitler caused the deliberate killing of over 5,000,000 Jews" and asserts that a detailed breakdown with "precise tables" and "supporting data" are to be found in Hilberg's writings.

Brzezinski also asserts that,

"The opening of the secret Soviet archives - and also of the archives of some of the formerly Communist East European states - as well as open access to hitherto withheld socio-economic statistics reveal that communist totalitarianism was more criminal, more brutal, and socially more destructive than alleged by even its most severe critics."

Some of communism's critics include myself, Goebells, Hitler, and Pius XII.

what's it prove y'all?

Where are your factual sources...anyone can type anything out...and basically put what they want in it.

Originally Posted by torus

none

[torus]

Originally Posted by lightgiver

Where are your factual sources...anyone can type anything out...and basically put what they want in it.

well, the veracity of my Brzezinski quotes are certainly easy to ascertain. I would hope that a simple, "trust me" would suffice in this regard.

Can we trust Dr. Brzezinski to be "factual".

"facts are simple and facts are straight

facts are lazy and facts are late!

facts all come with points of view

facts don't do what I what them too!"

ok, forgive me for that, but c'mon,
when you run in Dr. B's circles


-Harvard Ph.D. in 1953

-Counselor, Center for Strategic and International Studies

-Professor of American Foreign Policy, Johns Hopkins University

-National Security Advisor to President Jimmy Carter (1977-81)

-Trustee and founder of the Trilateral Commission

-International advisor of several major US/Global corporations

-Associate of Henry Kissinger

Under Ronald Reagan - member of NSC-Defense Department Commission on Integrated Long-Term Strategy

Under Ronald Reagan - member of the President's Foreign Intelligence Advisory Board

Past member, Board of Directors, The Council on Foreign Relations

1988 - Co-chairman of the Bush National Security Advisory Task Force.

Brzezinski is also a past attendee and presenter at several conferences of the Bilderberg Group - a non-partisan affiliation of the wealthiest and most powerful families and corporations on the planet.


doesn't a simple "trust me" more than suffice?

[lightgiver]

Originally Posted by torus

well, the veracity of my Brzezinski quotes are certainly easy to ascertain. I would hope that a simple, "trust me" would suffice in this regard.

doesn't a simple "trust me" more than suffice?

Con crete evidense if you please.

[torus]

Originally Posted by lightgiver

Con crete evidense if you please.

umm, 'cuz ya' don't go to jail fer denyin' it?

[lightgiver]

Originally Posted by torus

umm, 'cuz ya' don't go to jail fer denyin' it?

I am not denying anything...I all am asking for is...

I really don't see much photographic and video evidence just a lot of written down propaganda...

can someone actually show some real concrete proof that these death camps actually existed...

ES...That's close to 70 million Russians killed ...So where is the concrete evidence...

Maybe its just another Hoax.

Originally Posted by rorschach

some pictures of hard working russians, unlike the nazis russians didnt use slave labour .


some woman gather for a chin wag around the central heating system ,notice the quilts on those beds


a shower cubicle each

some miners wrapped up well against the cold have a chat while they work




if this was stalin at his worst no wonder he got a state funeral ,
loved by his family his son fought the nazis until his capture .

At ten, he began attending church school where the Georgian children were forced to speak Russian. By the age of twelve, two horse-drawn carriage accidents left his left arm permanently damaged. At sixteen, he received a scholarship to a Georgian Orthodox seminary, where he rebelled against the imperialist and religious order. Though he performed well there, he was expelled in 1899 after missing his final exams. The seminary's records suggest he was unable to pay his tuition fees. The official Soviet version states that he was expelled for reading illegal literature and forming a Social Democratic study circle

The Georgian Apostolic Autocephalous Orthodox Church (Georgian: საქართველოს სამოციქულო მართლმადიდებელი ავტოკეფალური ეკლესია, sakartvelos samocikulo martlmadidebeli avtok'epaluri ek'lesia) is an autocephalous part of the Eastern Orthodox Church. Since the 4th century AD, Georgian Orthodoxy has been the state religion of Georgia, and it remains the country's largest religious institution.

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