The Animals That You Eat Are Conscious Beings

[_z3n_]

Originally Posted by bikerdruid

of course their lives are shorter.
they live in unbelievable climatic conditions.
my point was, it is impossible for an inuit to be a vegetarian or vegan.

Well obviously. I think the lesson there is, don't live in places where it's so cold and inhospitable that all you have to eat is meat.

[bikerdruid]

Originally Posted by _z3n_

Well obviously. I think the lesson there is, don't live in places where it's so cold and inhospitable that all you have to eat is meat.

there will doubtless be a mass exodus of mistaken inuit from arctic canada to live in your neighbourhood.

[matteria]

Originally Posted by mata

If, for example, I choose to ingest and subsequently digest a plant or an animal - who is anyone to say that I do not have utmost respect for the life within that being? I am making a choice to introduce the consciousness of that being into my own personal cellular/consciousness matrix! They, whether animal or plant, transmute into a new form of life by the fact that they literally reconfigure as the new cells that support my being here in this body. They continue to live through me and experience the world through my body. I choose them to 'become me'. There is no higher form of respect.

Sorry, this is wack. The highest form of respect for animals is not to play god with them, and unless you're eating them alive then they are not going to 'experience the world through you.' That's like saying we experience being buried 6 feet under in a box after we die because consciousness doesn't leave a dead body.

Originally Posted by mata

This idea of food frequency [consciousness!] extends also to realising that processed foods such as flour and sugar (the great profit generators of the modern colonial Empires, woohoo!) have been de-natured to the point of having their consciousness reduced to a kind of 'non-descript sludgey blank'. It's still there but is it is not a form of consciousness that is going to help you stay aware and in control of your 'faculties' during the times we're living in. I'd go so far as to label processed foods the "T.V." of nutrition.

I wanted to expand on this a little. The reason confectioner's sugar (or any kind that is bleached) is so unhealthy is because it is refined with bone char (burnt cow bone residue) in a process meant only to 'improve' the 'coloration.'

I don't know how unsupported my interpretation of this is, but I would say this is done in order to - like you mentioned toward the end of your post - contaminate an extremely popular ingredient with fear. Because fear was the last thing the cows (usually bulls) knew before their throats were slit.


I don't understand why it is people tend to think that if you kill something, it didn't necessarily experience pain. Do you think any animal would stay in a slaughterhouse if they it how to escape? Do you think chasing down a rabbit with a shotgun as it is fleeing for its life is part of how you show your 'love and respect' for it? Or is there some sort of abstract rule that only cows chickens and pigs (the most defenseless if you ask me) are deserving to be bludgeoned, shot, etc.

There is no respect for animals who are raised to be killed. There is no love in expecting any consciousness to sacrifice itself because you think yourself entitled to it. Anyone who thinks there is experiences cognitive dissonance.

[vegan_on_the_land]

Originally Posted by rbl_4nik8r

If you need to buy all your food at the store your still a slave to the system and that goes for both vegans and meat eaters. Unless you are growing all your own food or out there scavenging for it why even bring Apes and Chimpanzees into a topic like this or even point out what's better for you.

I would love to see all the vegans live off the land like a Chimpanzee or Ape and see how long they last, but as pointed out even buy Jane Goodall that lived with Apes and Chimps for some 30 years they did kill and eat meat tho it was rare, in most cases only a handful of times a years if that, but they did eat meat.

Yes, we are all slaves to the system. We all need to buy something at some time. I think it was a meat eater who brought chimps into the thread.

We can't live off the land like chimps - even if we lived in the land of the chimps. We aren't strong enough to climb trees. Our teeth and jaws have changed so we can no longer chew the tough foods they do. It is true that many of them eat meat - now and again.

Originally Posted by bikerdruid

false.
they were until sugars and other western poisons entered their lives.

Eskimo bodies from hundreds of years ago have been found with osteoporosis. Both young and middle aged. It's thought their high protein diets were to blame. They also had atherosclerosis but this may have been due to smokey igloos. Or it could have been due to meat.

Originally Posted by janiebird

I read that green is the most visible to the human eye. Anyone know anything about this?

We developed good colour vision so we could see when fruits are ripe. I don't think dogs can see the colour red. It would help them to follow a trail of blood, especially in the snow, but they rely on their sense of smell. I think that if we were meant to eat meat our sense of smell would be better. We don't need a good sense of smell, though, as our natural food doesn't run away from us and is easy to find.

Originally Posted by bikerdruid

my point was, it is impossible for an inuit to be a vegetarian or vegan.

This is true. They did the best they could. It just wasn't good enough, though.

[rbl_4nik8r]

Originally Posted by matteria

I don't understand why it is people tend to think that if you kill something, it didn't necessarily experience pain. Do you think any animal would stay in a slaughterhouse if Win it how to escape? Do you think chasing down a rabbit with a shotgun as it is fleeing for its life is part of how you show your 'love and respect' for it? Or is there some sort of abstract rule that only cows chickens and pigs (the most defenseless if you ask me) are deserving to be bludgeoned, shot, etc.

There is no respect for animals who are raised to be killed. There is no love in expecting any consciousness to sacrifice itself because you think yourself entitled to it. Anyone who thinks there is experiences cognitive dissonance.

I can understand that you may have never gone hunting, but if you have you would know that for small game like a rabbit a .22 Long is much better and you don't chase them you see them wait for them to stop and shoot. Its done fast and painless, or you can measure the time it takes the bullet as it hits the head and then plows its way thru the brain. Its no different with most animals I hunt, if you need a second shot you did something wrong.

A few weeks ago my son and I were hunting rabbits in San Tan Valley AZ, and we killed 37 of them he killed most of them and never chased one or had to take a second shot. They are a pest there they over breed and eat everything, they do not have enough food, but that's not my worry.

I have a friend that's raised hawks off and on for over 25 years, you have any clue how long it takes for a hawk to kill, or other animals that kill rabbits for food? You bring up pain and suffering, but in the wild this happens all the time, you ever see what happens when two Elk lock antlers and cannot get them unlocked? They starve to death because they can no longer eat and that can take days if not weeks.



4nE

[tenzingnorgay]

Originally Posted by vegan_on_the_land

A lot of meat eaters have anaemia. Why is it a bad choice to not give babies meat? The human brain gets all the nutrients it needs from a vegan diet. If not, vegan babies would have underdeveloped brains.

The human brain does not get B12 from a vegan diet. Even leading vegans who are MDs admit this.

Lack of B12 not only shrinks your brain but can wreck your nervous system in numerous other ways.

Vegan babies get their nutrients from AN ANIMAL -their mother. Vegan mothers who have been vegan too long can give birth to babies with neurological problems and numerous other birth defects.

"Stupid Vegans, There are no other kind" - Dr Melissa Clouthier:

http://drmelissaclouthier.blogspot.c...id-vegans.html

[tenzingnorgay]

Originally Posted by domathy

I was lucky enough to be raised veggie, and then rebelled and ate meat in my teens, then gave it up. Im fortunate to have the reference point of before/during/after consuming meat at different stages in my life. Meat is addictive and it deludes the user. Most people are fed meat from a very young age and it becomes fixed in their energy field, vibrationally speaking. It does no good to be angry at people for not seeing what is obvious to ourselves as you just eat yourself up - that said its important to be passionate and really you shouldnt have to apologise for expressing how you feel. Its all messed up, and the lizards have set things up so that we fight amonst ourselves - thus we are easy to control. People come to their realisations in their own time - and often the penny drops when the time is right. Im not sure where im going with this, but all i try to do these days is speak my truth about things, and if it is true then the vibrations of what i say will plant a seed in those who hear - as that is the nature of truth. That said, direct confrontation has its place too.

Human beings are omnivores. Always have been and always will be. There is nothing wrong with the energy field of a bear, a chimpanzee or a human that eats meat. Meat is a highly nutritious source of nutrients. And relatively speaking, meat is of course more "addictive" than kale because your body knows that meat will keep it alive longer than kale will keep it alive. So your body, being far smarter than your brain (and this is especialy true for vegans), will always seek out the nutrition in meat. Most vegans have continual cravings, cravings for the nutrients they are lacking.

For at least 80% of the world, veganism is a completely unsustainable dietary choice. Vegans in North America and Europe make it through the winter by flying in fruits and veggies from all over the world. That will be ending in the next 5-10 years or become prohibitively expensive.

[vegan_on_the_land]

Originally Posted by rbl_4nik8r

I have a friend that's raised hawks off and on for over 25 years, you have any clue how long it takes for a hawk to kill, or other animals that kill rabbits for food? You bring up pain and suffering, but in the wild this happens all the time, you ever see what happens when two Elk lock antlers and cannot get them unlocked? They starve to death because they can no longer eat and that can take days if not weeks.

You can't excuse your behaviour by citing what happens in the wild. Thousands of humans die in agony. Millions are starving to death right now. I hope you don't advocate shooting them and putting them out of their misery.

Originally Posted by tenzingnorgay

The human brain does not get B12 from a vegan diet. Even leading vegans who are MDs admit this.

Lack of B12 not only shrinks your brain but can wreck your nervous system in numerous other ways.

Vegan babies get their nutrients from AN ANIMAL -their mother. Vegan mothers who have been vegan too long can give birth to babies with neurological problems and numerous other birth defects.

My vegan diet contains B12. I didn't say a plant food diet contains B12. Many meat eaters, who get B12 from meat, are B12 deficient because they can't make use of it. Their digestive systems are inefficient or lack enough intrinsic factor. Most babies born with neurological and birth defects are born to non-vegan mothers.

Originally Posted by tenzingnorgay

For at least 80% of the world, veganism is a completely unsustainable dietary choice. Vegans in North America and Europe make it through the winter by flying in fruits and veggies from all over the world. That will be ending in the next 5-10 years or become prohibitively expensive.

This is partly true. We belong in the tropics, swinging through the trees with our ape cousins. All humans, except those following traditional Eskimo ways, can live as vegans. But, for most places, food does have to be flown in during the winter. It's called civilisation. Raw materials also need to be flown in all year round. Was all your clothing sourced from within 100 miles of where you live? What about the computer you use?

What do you propose - that we all become gatherer-hunters? Can 300 million Americans live by hunting and gathering berries? What about 7,000 million humans? There would be no rabbits left after the first year and no deer or elk or cattle. There'd be no food plants left, either. But then you could start farming them. Oh, that's already been done.

[rbl_4nik8r]

@VOTL yes people die its part of life if you didn't know this, at some point you will die, and it can be painful at times sadly. No I didn't say anything about going out and killing starving people that's your saying there.

matteria stated you chase rabbits and basically cashed fear and pain in there death when hunting them, I disagree with that. Now I am sure some people are less skilled at killing and may need to take more shots and this could take longer for a rabbit to die, but I would think this is rare, but its not much different then what happens in the wild.

Also as I stated before when I went hunting for them rabbits alot of them were dropped off at a homeless shelter for free meals, I do this a lot with extra meat I can't use, I do not like seeing food go to waste, and I do agree way to many people are starving in this world and a lot more would be starving if meat was not on the menu.



4nE

[bikerdruid]

i pride myself at humane and respectful slaughter.
we raise, care for, slaughter and butcher all of our own meat.
vegans need to get over themselves.

i live at 56N.
being vegan or vegetarian is impractical.

[_z3n_]

Originally Posted by rbl_4nik8r

...and I do agree way to many people are starving in this world and a lot more would be starving if meat was not on the menu.

Actually, if all the grain that is presently used to feed livestock were instead allotted to humans, it could feed the world's population and then some.

[scottishryan]

Originally Posted by _z3n_

Actually, if all the grain that is presently used to feed livestock were instead allotted to humans, it could feed the world's population and then some.

Ah but that makes perfect sense, but not dollars

[jomjom]

Turns out that everything in nature has a way of protecting itself. Animals run or fight back. Even plants don't like being defoliated and eaten unless it serves a purpose to reproduce.

In africa theres the acacia trees, if lets say a goat starts to bite into one of them. The tree begins to produce toxins and also releases a signal to all the trees in the area to begin doing the same thing.
http://www.asknature.org/strategy/9b...4610944a3d05ed

Grain is no different. Theres something called phytic acid. Basically what this does is blocks your body from absorbing nutrition. This I believe is caused due to the mass growing and harvesting over and over of grains. I would suppose that if we stopped harvesting grains enmasse that they would lose their phytic acid defences.

We as humans are meant to be hunter/gatherers. Thats how we survived ice ages, and more than likely in strong numbers.

If you're on a hardcore grain diet, you will starve yourself of nutrient.

[tenzingnorgay]

Originally Posted by _z3n_

Actually, if all the grain that is presently used to feed livestock were instead allotted to humans, it could feed the world's population and then some.

No, it couldn't. Most of the grain is produced far from where the starving people are located. So who's going to pay for transporting it? Assuming you had a way to get the grain to the starving people, people cannot thrive on grain alone.

And how are you planning on feeding those people who were going to eat the livestock that was being fed by the grain?

That's the nice thing about being a vegan - you get to live in a fantasy world.

[tenzingnorgay]

Originally Posted by vegan_on_the_land

You can't excuse your behaviour by citing what happens in the wild. Thousands of humans die in agony. Millions are starving to death right now. I hope you don't advocate shooting them and putting them out of their misery.



My vegan diet contains B12. I didn't say a plant food diet contains B12. Many meat eaters, who get B12 from meat, are B12 deficient because they can't make use of it. Their digestive systems are inefficient or lack enough intrinsic factor. Most babies born with neurological and birth defects are born to non-vegan mothers.



This is partly true. We belong in the tropics, swinging through the trees with our ape cousins. All humans, except those following traditional Eskimo ways, can live as vegans. But, for most places, food does have to be flown in during the winter. It's called civilisation. Raw materials also need to be flown in all year round. Was all your clothing sourced from within 100 miles of where you live? What about the computer you use?

What do you propose - that we all become gatherer-hunters? Can 300 million Americans live by hunting and gathering berries? What about 7,000 million humans? There would be no rabbits left after the first year and no deer or elk or cattle. There'd be no food plants left, either. But then you could start farming them. Oh, that's already been done.

A vegan diet does not contain B12 unless you add a supplement, which proves beyond the shadow of any doubt that human beings did not evolve as vegans and are not vegans.

I propose that all humans admit they are omnivores, which is what we are anyway.

You are conflating two completely separate problems - the ideal diet, versus the ideal food gathering and distribution system. 300 million Americans can survive as omnivores. The problem of overpopulation exists whether people eat meat, fruit or dog biscuits. Too many people will overwhelm any system.

[_z3n_]

Originally Posted by tenzingnorgay

No, it couldn't. Most of the grain is produced far from where the starving people are located. So who's going to pay for transporting it? Assuming you had a way to get the grain to the starving people, people cannot thrive on grain alone.

And how are you planning on feeding those people who were going to eat the livestock that was being fed by the grain?

That's the nice thing about being a vegan - you get to live in a fantasy world.

Lol, it might be impractical, but don't pretend that it's a logistics problem. It's only impractical because the meat industry would never allow it.

[bikerdruid]

Originally Posted by _z3n_

Lol, it might be impractical, but don't pretend that it's a logistics problem. It's only impractical because the meat industry would never allow it.

and what of the current livestock?
denmark has more pigs than people.
have you ever seen what a feral pig can do?
what would millions of them do?
they would eat anythinbg...children included.
alberta, canada, where i live, has millions of cattle, more than people.
what do we do with them?
and animals breed.

[_z3n_]

Originally Posted by bikerdruid

and what of the current livestock?
denmark has more pigs than people.
have you ever seen what a feral pig can do?
what would millions of them do?
they would eat anythinbg...children included.
alberta, canada, where i live, has millions of cattle, more than people.
what do we do with them?
and animals breed.

Kill them, I don't care. But don't make people eat them.

But seriously, think about it.. I'm proposing that we stop breeding livestock and redirect their food supply. And you're saying we can't do that because there are too many. How did there get to be too many? lol

I mean, it seems that you're saying that we artificially bred the population to the point that it's so large we have to eat it. It's the other way around.. we purposely made it large so that we could eat it.

[bikerdruid]

Originally Posted by _z3n_

Kill them, I don't care. But don't make people eat them.

wow.
what if people would rather eat them?

[_z3n_]

Originally Posted by bikerdruid

wow.
what if people would rather eat them?

Lol, I was joking you know.. hence the "But seriously.."

But for the sake of their health, don't make people eat them. If they want to, by all means.