Why have morals if God/Nature has no morals?

[grakkus]

Originally Posted by saint_frankenstein

This is why the Left Hand Path makes more sense. There is no duality - it's all Light and Darkness within us all, forming a rather blunt Grey. But from what I see, it's mostly Darkness - within us and in the universe. So maybe this Light is just vastly overrated.

Originally Posted by saint_frankenstein

. Yes. As a bit of a Luciferian, I can appreciate that aspect of Gnosticism.

Originally Posted by saint_frankenstein

I don't need any "saving" from the non-existent zombie rabbi and his vengeful sky daddy. If some misfortune befalls me, I'll save myself. I've saved myself many times before as it is. I am my own redeemer.

I reject your religion's useless, archaic and hateful "morality", yes. That crap should've stayed - and perished - in the desert where it belongs. I don't need some hypocrite in a frock or an expensive suit bought from the sheep's offerings to tell me how to live my life. I prefer common sense and reason.

I'm a trolling ass? Charming. If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, chances are...

You come across like a satanist. Why pretend otherwise? Be proud of your child sacrificing brothers and sisters.

Oh, by the way, here's a ritual you might want to try out. Knock yourself out.

The Ritual Of the Black Flame
By: Lord Grey

You'll need a bell and a cup of wine (or water).

Walking around in a circle going counter clockwise, ring bell.9 times.

Perform the entire Ritual of Baphomet

Then say:

"Behold! The earth, my dwelling, My place of pleasure and pain. I am here to acknowledge my bond with it and its ways...the
carnal laws of man...truth!"

"I am here this day to proclaim my life to the gift and power of the Beast, the beast within me...the true Self!"

Ring bell

"I call forth my inner black flame from the five angles of our Sign, our Ancient Glyph"

Facing the top right point of the pentacle:

"The Guardian of Angle of the Gate, the Source of my material being, the place of my dwelling and of the earth. I call forth Samael"

Ring bell.
Facing the top left point of the pentacle:

The Guardian of the Angle of The Flame, the Spark in the Eye of the Great Darkness, the place of my heart, I call forth Azazel!"

Ring bell.
Facing lower left point of the pentacle:

"The Guardian of the Angle of Light and of air, the force of my breath, the abode of the enlightened one, I call forth Lucifer"

Ring bell.
Facing the lower right point of pentacle:

"The Guardian of the Angle of the unholy fire, the inner flame of indulgence, the abode of the dark prince. I call forth Satan!"

Ring bell.
Facing the lower point of the pentacle:

"The Guardian of the angle of the deep sea...the rushing serpent. The place of my creation and the Root of my Being. I call forth
Leviathan"

Ring bell.

"And above me, the might and glory above all else, The Self! Humanity in its glory, I am a true manifestation of its greatness.
Shemhemphorash! Hail thyself!

I am here to realize and bless myself in the Black Flame of truth. I am here to deliver myself from false belief and self-deceit, I am
here to open the path to my carnal nature."

"I, a beast of the field, a being of flesh, proclaim myself a Satanist"

Note that the spellcasting, child-sacrifing douchebag satanist has to peform the ritual of baphomet. They also have to say "Hail thyself" Sound familiar?

Happy sacrificing.

[skaff]

Originally Posted by andyh

'except from the limited time perspective of human beings'

You completely ignored that bit by the looks

I am sorry, maybe my response was too subtle when addressing that part of your post. I understood your 'limited time perspective as since the existence of Man. My reason then for picking the crocodile and Coelocanth as my two examples is because they ceased to evolve long before we existed and judging by the way we are acting as a species, may well continue their stable life form long after ours snuffs out.

If however you are intimating a broader spectrum beyond current human understanding then you are right i cannot say whether or not evolution finds a level. Then again, your suggestion would then be equally without foundation in fact!

Regardless of its origin though, i do strongly believe that a decent moral compass is a pretty decent thing to have in life's utility belt!

[saint_frankenstein]

Originally Posted by grakkus

I'm a trolling ass? Charming. If it walks like a duck, and quacks like a duck, chances are...

I'm putting your trolling, paranoid and delusional ass on ignore.

[armoured_amazon]

Originally Posted by wwu777

Some deep but terrible questions:

Why do humans always need to do what's right and moral, when God and Mother Nature have no morality at all? Mother Nature kills countless animals, insects and plant life every second. And God allows wars, famines, poverty, disease, hunger, greed, and evil to kill people everyday. He does nothing to stop it. He lets evil people prosper and good people die young. He allows the strong to take advantage of the weak, and the "might is right" principle to rule the world. So if God himself has no morals, why must humans? How can there be any "universal morality code" if God or Mother Nature doesn't follow it? It's a terrible question, I know. Nothing makes sense in this world or life. But for crying out loud, stop pretending that there is some absolute "divine moral code" that exists for all creation.

God/Nature created the planet, we didn't.

[302bluefog]

Originally Posted by vagrant

Some animals live in social groups for a very good reason, you don't have to believe in moral codes to understand that; they instinctively know how to behave for the sake of the group and themselves; the individuals who think they can go it alone don't last very long.

Right...

[andyh]

Originally Posted by skaff

I am sorry, maybe my response was too subtle when addressing that part of your post. I understood your 'limited time perspective as since the existence of Man. My reason then for picking the crocodile and Coelocanth as my two examples is because they ceased to evolve long before we existed and judging by the way we are acting as a species, may well continue their stable life form long after ours snuffs out.

If however you are intimating a broader spectrum beyond current human understanding then you are right i cannot say whether or not evolution finds a level. Then again, your suggestion would then be equally without foundation in fact!

Regardless of its origin though, i do strongly believe that a decent moral compass is a pretty decent thing to have in life's utility belt!

Its factual enough that nature is evolving just about everything.
We just don't notice it that much tbh.
Its especially so if the changes are not physical but internal...cognitive for example.
Evolution doesn't just have to be about cellular mutation.
Human technological advance is a prime example of a very rapid form of evolution, just a pity our social evolution hasn't changed all that much

[noahh]

Most animals only mate in the spring, to give their children a good chance to survive the winter, give them a good 6 or 7 months before the next winter.

So most animals are more sexually moral than humans, they don't use other animals for sexual domination or self gratification.

[noahh]

Also, animals do not laugh at the suffering of other animals, it does not give them joy, so animals are in many ways far more moral than human beings.

People who say nature is immoral really lack insight into the true nature of most animals, any why they behave the way they behave.

Would most people say their pet dogs or cats are inherently immoral? Most animals that feel loved will love back.

One thing at the heart of all 'immorality' in nature, is eating other animals, eating their flesh, that is the root of all immoral predator behavior, the desire to consume.

[aheroicstand]

Morality is a good idea because we're mortal beings who have to live on this plane with each other. "God", if you believe in such a concept, is beyond this realm and hence does not have to worry about relations with the beings here. Nature, well on a finite world finite beings must arise. infinite beings would ravage the planet through overpopulation or worse underpopulation.

As for disparaging humanity in favor of lower creatures, it's easy for animals to be moral because they aren't smart enough to be evil. They aren't as self-aware as humans. They don't have language or an ability to record history and learn from it, and build upon the achievements of prior generations. Humans can see all of the benefits that can come from immorality, and know the only penalty comes if you aren't strong/smart enough to get away with your misdeeds.


Evil is a selfish attitude, one that dismisses the contributions and well-being of others in favor of one's own gain. These don't necessarily have to be at odds with each other, in fact many individuals in western nations are well off and have the contributions of other humans to thank for that. Of course, some of these contributions may actually be considered evil acts, such as the theft and genocide that the colonists dealt out to the American Indians. Such is the reality of our world. Even though we possess the ability to negotiate and to build societies for the betterment of all, the evil within our own hearts and minds still keeps us at war with one another.

If people could stop and think over the situation for a moment, they could perhaps realize this. Many still need to be exposed to a greater knowledge than what they possess before this is possible. Also, the time that could be used to think is often diverted to every day living and assorted distractions/recreational activities.

[saint_frankenstein]

Originally Posted by noahh

Also, animals do not laugh at the suffering of other animals, it does not give them joy, so animals are in many ways far more moral than human beings.

People who say nature is immoral really lack insight into the true nature of most animals, any why they behave the way they behave.

Would most people say their pet dogs or cats are inherently immoral? Most animals that feel loved will love back.

One thing at the heart of all 'immorality' in nature, is eating other animals, eating their flesh, that is the root of all immoral predator behavior, the desire to consume.

I take it that you've never seen a cat play with it's prey before? They certainly seem to get a kick out of causing fear and tormenting their prey.

I don't think nature is "immoral", it's amoral. It's kinda stupid to judge it using human standards.

[saint_frankenstein]

Originally Posted by noahh

Most animals only mate in the spring, to give their children a good chance to survive the winter, give them a good 6 or 7 months before the next winter.

That's for survival purposes, and nature has tuned them for mating in the spring.

So most animals are more sexually moral than humans, they don't use other animals for sexual domination or self gratification.

Rape is well-known throughout the animal kingdom. Males will anally rape other males in order to show domination over them, as well.

[chockimon]

Originally Posted by noahh

Also, animals do not laugh at the suffering of other animals, it does not give them joy, so animals are in many ways far more moral than human beings.

People who say nature is immoral really lack insight into the true nature of most animals, any why they behave the way they behave.

Would most people say their pet dogs or cats are inherently immoral? Most animals that feel loved will love back.

One thing at the heart of all 'immorality' in nature, is eating other animals, eating their flesh, that is the root of all immoral predator behavior, the desire to consume.

That simply isn't true. Most mammals, including seals, dolphins and whales kill for fun and so do lions and tigers.

Killer Whales Toy with Sea Lion Pup - You can almost hear those whales laughing.

Killer Whales Toy with Sea Lion Pup - YouTube

Killer Whales Toy with Sea Lion Pup - YouTube

Most human beings wouldn't even treat a seal pup like this. Shame on you nature.

[grakkus]

Originally Posted by chockimon

That simply isn't true. Most mammals, including seals, dolphins and whales kill for fun and so do lions and tigers.

Killer Whales Toy with Sea Lion Pup - You can almost hear those whales laughing.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O0qMT2YBIcg

Most human beings wouldn't even treat a seal pup like this. Shame on you nature.

Animals simply aren't moral agents. They have no idea about morals. They do not think that what they do is morally right or wrong. Human beings are moral agents. They know what moralilty is, and all of their actions are made in the light of this knowledge.

Even the fools that reject morality know exactly what morals are.

[chockimon]

Scientists have sequenced the genome of the chimpanzee and found that humans are 96 percent similar to chimps. We evolved from animals and therefore we have a lot more in common with other animals than your willing to acknowledge.

Animals can tell right from wrong
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/wil...rom-wrong.html

Animals 'are moral beings'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3014747.stm

http://pressblog.uchicago.edu/2009/0...se_of_mor.html

http://www.bloomsburypress.com/books...animals_hc_247

[grakkus]

Originally Posted by chockimon

Scientists have sequenced the genome of the chimpanzee and found that humans are 96 percent similar to chimps. We evolved from animals and therefore we have a lot more in common with other animals than your willing to acknowledge.

Animals can tell right from wrong
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/earth/wil...rom-wrong.html

Animals 'are moral beings'
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/sci/tech/3014747.stm

http://pressblog.uchicago.edu/2009/0...se_of_mor.html

http://www.bloomsburypress.com/books...animals_hc_247

There are massive amounts of genetic similarity between various species. It is simply not evidence that one species evolved into another.

As far as animals making moral choice just like humans do, I agree with the person quoted in the BBC article you posted.

"A spokesman for the Countryside Alliance told BBC News Online: "There seems to be a trend towards anthropomorphism throughout society.

"It's leading people to suggest animals can feel sensation and emotion in the same way as humans, and this is obviously nonsense.""

[302bluefog]

Video: Throwback Animal Clip Of The Week: Lioness Kills Cheetah! (Brother Doesn't Warn Him)

Video: Throwback Animal Clip Of The Week: Lioness Kills Cheetah! (Brother Doesn't Warn Him)

[302bluefog]

Video: This Bird Got Caught Slippin: Nature In Action At The Zoo!

Video: This Bird Got Caught Slippin: Nature In Action At The Zoo!

[guevarista]

Originally Posted by wwu777

Some deep but terrible questions:

Why do humans always need to do what's right and moral, when God and Mother Nature have no morality at all? Mother Nature kills countless animals, insects and plant life every second. And God allows wars, famines, poverty, disease, hunger, greed, and evil to kill people everyday. He does nothing to stop it. He lets evil people prosper and good people die young. He allows the strong to take advantage of the weak, and the "might is right" principle to rule the world. So if God himself has no morals, why must humans? How can there be any "universal morality code" if God or Mother Nature doesn't follow it? It's a terrible question, I know. Nothing makes sense in this world or life. But for crying out loud, stop pretending that there is some absolute "divine moral code" that exists for all creation.

The deep resounding morality of trees and lakes,
over time you may not notice the error of your ways,
they will do nothing,
until one day you wake up to find one gone and the other toxic