Why have morals if God/Nature has no morals? - Page 2

wwu777 · 01-02-2012, 09:39 AM

Some more points to consider:

God and Mother Nature have no morals either - about letting animals, insects and plants die every second, or allowing innocent people to suffer, or allowing good/innocent people to die young and evil people to thrive and prosper either. So there does not seem to be any objective "divine moral code" that governs all of creation. Morality is something that humans create, not some universal divine law that governs the universe.

Sometimes you gotta do what's best for you. As already explained, survival and self-preservation often takes precedent over "morally correct choices". It's not right or wrong; it's just reality. No one likes to admit that publicly, but it's true. There is no perfect world in which the best choices are always the morally correct ones.

I know that doesn't sound good. But you have to be realistic here. No one (at least not most people) can always make the morally correct choice in every decision and action. No one is a saint. But we are all hypocrites in that we hold others to the standards of a saint which we ourselves do not live up to. Everyone (at least most) has skeletons in the closet that would bring moral condemnation from others if exposed out in the open.

As the saying goes: "People do not like to do what's right. They like to TELL others to do what's right."

For example, let's take a hypothetical situation: Suppose Bill Gates accidentally deposited $500,000 into your bank account, and he never noticed it. Now, would you contact him and tell him about it, or would you think: "$500k to him is nothing. It's just pocket change to him. He'll never notice or care that he's missing that amount. I need it A LOT MORE than he does." Of course, publicly you might say that you'd report it because it's the "right and morally correct choice". But in REALITY and PRIVATELY, you KNOW you would probably keep it under the rationale and excuse: "I need this money more than he does. And besides, it was his mistake, not mine." Most people would probably do that, and never tell anyone about it of course. They would never post about it on a forum and try to debate the "morality" of it with others either, because they know that everyone would condemn them. Most of you KNOW that YOU WOULD just keep it, because in this scenario, your "survival instinct" would override your "moral instinct". The benefits and gains would overshadow the "moral ethics" (which bring you nothing), especially if you were badly in need of money. So stop pretending that you are all saints who hold other people to the standard of a saint. You are hypocrites and you know it!

Besides, most of you are also hypocrites for condoning the slaughter of cows, chickens and pigs, (and eating them) while condemning the slaughter of dogs and cats. And you are hypocrites for condoning hunters who shoot ducks and deer. Who are you to decide which life of which species is sacred and valuable, and which isn't? Should an advanced alien race have a right to eat you for food too? Just because you are human doesn't mean that human life is the most sacred thing in the objective universe. A higher more advanced race than you might think otherwise. There's simply no consistency in your thinking and moral standards.

If killing were morally wrong, then those who kill and eat animals would be punished by karma and universal retribution right away, wouldn't they? Yet many meat eaters live long and healthy lives. Why is that?

If killing were ethically wrong and punishable by karma, then is your immune system guilty of killing all the harmful bacteria that it kills everyday? Should karma punish you and your immune system?

If killing was a sin punishable by karma or God, then how come George Bush, Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld, who started the Iraq War and killed over a million people, have gone unpunished by the universe, and are wealthier than ever? How come the US officials who started the Vietnam War lived long and healthy lives? How come Joseph Stalin, who killed more people than Hitler, lived to a ripe old age? Yet, Robert Kennedy, a man with great compassion for others, gets gunned down and dies young? Where is all the karmic retribution or divine justice in that?

If you are a man, every time you ejaculate, you kill thousands of sperm, even during sex. Does that make you a mass murderer? Should "divine punishment" come upon you for that? If you are a woman, every time you go through menstruation, you kill thousands of fertilized eggs. Does that make you a mass murderer? Should "divine punishment" befall you for that?

So you see, under casual scrutiny, the "moral logic" of most humans falls apart and is shown to be inconsistent, subjective, situational and relative. Human morality is not some "divine law" handed down by God. It is a code of ethics humans created to help ensure the survival and cooperation of our species. The "moral conscience" you have in your subconscious that makes you feel guilty when you do something wrong is not something that God put into you. It's the result of the moral behaviors and beliefs of all your ancestors that have become ingrained into your DNA. It's the same reason why a kitten is born with an expert instinct to catch mice, and a knowing of what it can eat and what it can't. It's the same way animals know that they are supposed to run from predators. God didn't teach them to. It's simply ingrained into their DNA as an instinct from the past behavior of their ancestors.

This is why our survival instinct tends to override our moral instinct. Our need to survive comes first and foremost. It is the root instinct of all life and comes before all other instincts. It also precedes any "moral code" we develop to get along with others. So naturally, when survival and morals come into conflict, we will choose survival. As the saying goes, "One can only have morals if one can afford them."

mithios · 01-02-2012, 03:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wwu777

Some deep but terrible questions:

Why do humans always need to do what's right and moral, when God and Mother Nature have no morality at all? Mother Nature kills countless animals, insects and plant life every second. And God allows wars, famines, poverty, disease, hunger, greed, and evil to kill people everyday. He does nothing to stop it. He lets evil people prosper and good people die young. He allows the strong to take advantage of the weak, and the "might is right" principle to rule the world. So if God himself has no morals, why must humans? How can there be any "universal morality code" if God or Mother Nature doesn't follow it? It's a terrible question, I know. Nothing makes sense in this world or life. But for crying out loud, stop pretending that there is some absolute "divine moral code" that exists for all creation.

The difference is,humans kill for fun.

verndewd · 01-02-2012, 04:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wwu777

Some deep but terrible questions:

Why do humans always need to do what's right and moral, when God and Mother Nature have no morality at all? Mother Nature kills countless animals, insects and plant life every second. And God allows wars, famines, poverty, disease, hunger, greed, and evil to kill people everyday. He does nothing to stop it. He lets evil people prosper and good people die young. He allows the strong to take advantage of the weak, and the "might is right" principle to rule the world. So if God himself has no morals, why must humans? How can there be any "universal morality code" if God or Mother Nature doesn't follow it? It's a terrible question, I know. Nothing makes sense in this world or life. But for crying out loud, stop pretending that there is some absolute "divine moral code" that exists for all creation.

there is SOME truth in that but , since were capable of coming up with moral codes that protect the peace among ourselves, we do. moral codes are more about what doesnt piss the next guy off or lead them into absolute idiocy than about god. Read the instructions at shurupagg given to whom the jewbags call noah , his real name is ziudsura. its like what the ten commandments were before they were perverted and specifically state the reason for a moral code is social justice and peace keeping.

regardless of any psycho religious bull crap, moral codes have always been about self respect and respect of others.

verndewd · 01-02-2012, 05:42 PM

whats commonly referred to as divine morals is nothing more than social ethics.

rexypoo · 01-02-2012, 05:56 PM

I've wondered this same thing myself many times. I have wondered just how "good" humans really are if we were to be on our own in this world. Meaning, if there was no such thing as people trying to take over the world and no such thing as religion there to tell us what's right and wrong, would we as humans destroy each other? Or would we flourish due to our natural kind-heartedness? I know humans are fucked up, but it's not our fault. We were destined to be this way by powers beyond our control. Regardless, we are what we are. And for those of us that are not "asleep" anymore and know better, what is stopping US from doing whatever we want? And where do we draw the line, knowing that everything we've been conditioned to believe in, and trust in, and have faith in, is all bullshit? Where does good end and bad start? Is it still the same for us truthers now that our eyes are opened? Do we have limits? And knowing that life is all just an experience for us to live, does that mean that we abandon all morality that we have been taught and do what we want, damn the consequences? But most importantly, how do we even know that what we have been taught as being "RIGHT" is even right at all?

rhydra · 01-02-2012, 06:33 PM

Morals change from decade to decade, century to century. 200 years ago people would have strode over a baby dying in the street or not thought twice about 2000 soldiers dying in a battle, now when more than five die it's a national outrage. Not saying it's wrong because it isn't but 70 years ago there were hundreds of people dying in the major cities in one night;'s worth of bombings, women, children, imagine if that happened today, if 150 civilians were dead in a single bombing in say, Manchester, it would be total lockdown, panic, rage.

verndewd · 01-02-2012, 06:48 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by rhydra

Morals change from decade to decade, century to century. 200 years ago people would have strode over a baby dying in the street or not thought twice about 2000 soldiers dying in a battle, now when more than five die it's a national outrage. Not saying it's wrong because it isn't but 70 years ago there were hundreds of people dying in the major cities in one night;'s worth of bombings, women, children, imagine if that happened today, if 150 civilians were dead in a single bombing in say, Manchester, it would be total lockdown, panic, rage.

200 years ago the same travesties happened on smaller scales. I read some crime logs from new york in the 1800's, same exact level of twisted shit going on back then.

danster82 · 01-02-2012, 06:54 PM

Who has morals?

Whats a moral and where does it arise from?

nocternald · 01-02-2012, 07:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wwu777

Some deep but terrible questions:

Why do humans always need to do what's right and moral, when God and Mother Nature have no morality at all? Mother Nature kills countless animals, insects and plant life every second. And God allows wars, famines, poverty, disease, hunger, greed, and evil to kill people everyday. He does nothing to stop it. He lets evil people prosper and good people die young. He allows the strong to take advantage of the weak, and the "might is right" principle to rule the world. So if God himself has no morals, why must humans? How can there be any "universal morality code" if God or Mother Nature doesn't follow it? It's a terrible question, I know. Nothing makes sense in this world or life. But for crying out loud, stop pretending that there is some absolute "divine moral code" that exists for all creation.

Religion wasn't created to make sense, it was created to control people.

unimatrix0 · 01-02-2012, 07:17 PM

I think morals are a byproduct of compassion, which is a natural component of most humans.
Here's an interesting TED talk about why we don't always act on our compassion (our default state):

Daniel Goleman: Why arent we all Good Samaritans? - YouTube

rhydra · 01-02-2012, 08:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by nocternald

Religion wasn't created to make sense, it was created to control people.

And it does, even to the death.

302bluefog · 01-02-2012, 10:21 PM

Great thread... Does a lion have morals when it eats another animal?

grakkus · 01-02-2012, 10:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by wwu777

Some deep but terrible questions:

Why do humans always need to do what's right and moral, when God and Mother Nature have no morality at all?

Surely we can decide what we want to do for ourselves. Many believe that God gave humanity free will.

Quote:

Originally Posted by wwu777

Mother Nature kills countless animals, insects and plant life every second. And God allows wars, famines, poverty, disease, hunger, greed, and evil to kill people everyday. He does nothing to stop it. He lets evil people prosper and good people die young. He allows the strong to take advantage of the weak, and the "might is right" principle to rule the world. So if God himself has no morals, why must humans?.

The statement that "God himself has no morals" does not logically follow from what you attribute to God. If God did indeed create human beings with free will to make moral choices, what use would that free will be if God started getting involved and stopping things that some people decided they didn't like about existence?

Quote:

Originally Posted by wwu777

How can there be any "universal morality code" if God or Mother Nature doesn't follow it? It's a terrible question, I know. Nothing makes sense in this world or life. But for crying out loud, stop pretending that there is some absolute "divine moral code" that exists for all creation.

It is a terrible question, because I think that you already are a moral person, and conduct your life with a regard for the feelings of others. Do you really think that, for example, killing a child is no more morally wrong that baking a cake for your grandmother? I think you know that some things are morally wrong, and your question really is pointless.

grakkus · 01-02-2012, 10:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 302bluefog

Great thread... Does a lion have morals when it eats another animal?

Of course not.

verndewd · 01-02-2012, 10:29 PM

free will is an innate part of existence. god could neither give it nor take it away.

skaff · 01-02-2012, 10:33 PM

If morality is a product of natural evolution, we would all have a similar level.

If it is part of social evolution, then the level would depend on the environment we grow up in.

Do the Maths!

chockimon · 01-02-2012, 11:48 PM

Human beings are like an artificial intelligence, where there's only two constructs, chaos & order. An AI might be chaotic at first, but then it learns over time that being chaotic gets you nowhere and therefore order is the only way. When it comes to this state of knowing & being, it chooses morality over immorality.

Having had an NDE & OBE, a state of nirvana exists when your outside of your body. In this state, fear, hatred & evil does not exist.

andyh · 01-02-2012, 11:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by skaff

If morality is a product of natural evolution, we would all have a similar level.

If it is part of social evolution, then the level would depend on the environment we grow up in.

Do the Maths!

Why would we ALL have a similar level if it was a product of natural evolution?
Surely you know that natural evolution had quite divergent species at any one time?

felakuti · 01-02-2012, 11:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chockimon

Human beings are like an artificial intelligence, where there's only two constructs, chaos & order. An AI might be chaotic at first, but then it learns over time that being chaotic gets you nowhere and therefore order is the only way. When it comes to this state of knowing & being, it chooses morality over immorality.

Having had an NDE & OBE, a state of nirvana exists when your outside of your body. In this state, fear, hatred & evil does not exist.

Thanks for sharing.

verndewd · 02-02-2012, 12:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chockimon
Human beings are like an artificial intelligence, where there's only two constructs, chaos & order. An AI might be chaotic at first, but then it learns over time that being chaotic gets you nowhere and therefore order is the only way. When it comes to this state of knowing & being, it chooses morality over immorality.

Having had an NDE & OBE, a state of nirvana exists when your outside of your body. In this state, fear, hatred & evil does not exist.

great post

its doesnt exist during a mini stroke either btw.

01-02-2012, 05:42 PM	#24
verndewd Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Lands of the american natives Posts: 12,124	whats commonly referred to as divine morals is nothing more than social ethics. __________________ see the world as walking in spirit in harmony and let everything else go

01-02-2012, 06:33 PM	#26
rhydra Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2008 Location: Wales Posts: 8,502	Morals change from decade to decade, century to century. 200 years ago people would have strode over a baby dying in the street or not thought twice about 2000 soldiers dying in a battle, now when more than five die it's a national outrage. Not saying it's wrong because it isn't but 70 years ago there were hundreds of people dying in the major cities in one night;'s worth of bombings, women, children, imagine if that happened today, if 150 civilians were dead in a single bombing in say, Manchester, it would be total lockdown, panic, rage. __________________ Man is a tool created by the Universe to mark time.

01-02-2012, 06:54 PM	#28
danster82 Senior Member Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: London Posts: 3,586	Who has morals? Whats a moral and where does it arise from? __________________ *http://danster82.com/*/

01-02-2012, 10:29 PM	#35
verndewd Senior Member Join Date: Jul 2008 Location: Lands of the american natives Posts: 12,124	free will is an innate part of existence. god could neither give it nor take it away. __________________ see the world as walking in spirit in harmony and let everything else go

01-02-2012, 09:39 AM	#21
wwu777 Senior Member Join Date: Apr 2010 Posts: 791	Some more points to consider: God and Mother Nature have no morals either - about letting animals, insects and plants die every second, or allowing innocent people to suffer, or allowing good/innocent people to die young and evil people to thrive and prosper either. So there does not seem to be any objective "divine moral code" that governs all of creation. Morality is something that humans create, not some universal divine law that governs the universe. Sometimes you gotta do what's best for you. As already explained, survival and self-preservation often takes precedent over "morally correct choices". It's not right or wrong; it's just reality. No one likes to admit that publicly, but it's true. There is no perfect world in which the best choices are always the morally correct ones. I know that doesn't sound good. But you have to be realistic here. No one (at least not most people) can always make the morally correct choice in every decision and action. No one is a saint. But we are all hypocrites in that we hold others to the standards of a saint which we ourselves do not live up to. Everyone (at least most) has skeletons in the closet that would bring moral condemnation from others if exposed out in the open. As the saying goes: "People do not like to do what's right. They like to TELL others to do what's right." For example, let's take a hypothetical situation: Suppose Bill Gates accidentally deposited $500,000 into your bank account, and he never noticed it. Now, would you contact him and tell him about it, or would you think: "$500k to him is nothing. It's just pocket change to him. He'll never notice or care that he's missing that amount. I need it A LOT MORE than he does." Of course, publicly you might say that you'd report it because it's the "right and morally correct choice". But in REALITY and PRIVATELY, you KNOW you would probably keep it under the rationale and excuse: "I need this money more than he does. And besides, it was his mistake, not mine." Most people would probably do that, and never tell anyone about it of course. They would never post about it on a forum and try to debate the "morality" of it with others either, because they know that everyone would condemn them. Most of you KNOW that YOU WOULD just keep it, because in this scenario, your "survival instinct" would override your "moral instinct". The benefits and gains would overshadow the "moral ethics" (which bring you nothing), especially if you were badly in need of money. So stop pretending that you are all saints who hold other people to the standard of a saint. You are hypocrites and you know it! Besides, most of you are also hypocrites for condoning the slaughter of cows, chickens and pigs, (and eating them) while condemning the slaughter of dogs and cats. And you are hypocrites for condoning hunters who shoot ducks and deer. Who are you to decide which life of which species is sacred and valuable, and which isn't? Should an advanced alien race have a right to eat you for food too? Just because you are human doesn't mean that human life is the most sacred thing in the objective universe. A higher more advanced race than you might think otherwise. There's simply no consistency in your thinking and moral standards. If killing were morally wrong, then those who kill and eat animals would be punished by karma and universal retribution right away, wouldn't they? Yet many meat eaters live long and healthy lives. Why is that? If killing were ethically wrong and punishable by karma, then is your immune system guilty of killing all the harmful bacteria that it kills everyday? Should karma punish you and your immune system? If killing was a sin punishable by karma or God, then how come George Bush, Dick Cheney and Donald Rumsfeld, who started the Iraq War and killed over a million people, have gone unpunished by the universe, and are wealthier than ever? How come the US officials who started the Vietnam War lived long and healthy lives? How come Joseph Stalin, who killed more people than Hitler, lived to a ripe old age? Yet, Robert Kennedy, a man with great compassion for others, gets gunned down and dies young? Where is all the karmic retribution or divine justice in that? If you are a man, every time you ejaculate, you kill thousands of sperm, even during sex. Does that make you a mass murderer? Should "divine punishment" come upon you for that? If you are a woman, every time you go through menstruation, you kill thousands of fertilized eggs. Does that make you a mass murderer? Should "divine punishment" befall you for that? So you see, under casual scrutiny, the "moral logic" of most humans falls apart and is shown to be inconsistent, subjective, situational and relative. Human morality is not some "divine law" handed down by God. It is a code of ethics humans created to help ensure the survival and cooperation of our species. The "moral conscience" you have in your subconscious that makes you feel guilty when you do something wrong is not something that God put into you. It's the result of the moral behaviors and beliefs of all your ancestors that have become ingrained into your DNA. It's the same reason why a kitten is born with an expert instinct to catch mice, and a knowing of what it can eat and what it can't. It's the same way animals know that they are supposed to run from predators. God didn't teach them to. It's simply ingrained into their DNA as an instinct from the past behavior of their ancestors. This is why our survival instinct tends to override our moral instinct. Our need to survive comes first and foremost. It is the root instinct of all life and comes before all other instincts. It also precedes any "moral code" we develop to get along with others. So naturally, when survival and morals come into conflict, we will choose survival. As the saying goes, "One can only have morals if one can afford them."

01-02-2012, 05:56 PM	#25
rexypoo Senior Member Join Date: Sep 2011 Posts: 233	I've wondered this same thing myself many times. I have wondered just how "good" humans really are if we were to be on our own in this world. Meaning, if there was no such thing as people trying to take over the world and no such thing as religion there to tell us what's right and wrong, would we as humans destroy each other? Or would we flourish due to our natural kind-heartedness? I know humans are fucked up, but it's not our fault. We were destined to be this way by powers beyond our control. Regardless, we are what we are. And for those of us that are not "asleep" anymore and know better, what is stopping US from doing whatever we want? And where do we draw the line, knowing that everything we've been conditioned to believe in, and trust in, and have faith in, is all bullshit? Where does good end and bad start? Is it still the same for us truthers now that our eyes are opened? Do we have limits? And knowing that life is all just an experience for us to live, does that mean that we abandon all morality that we have been taught and do what we want, damn the consequences? But most importantly, how do we even know that what we have been taught as being "RIGHT" is even right at all?

01-02-2012, 10:21 PM	#32
302bluefog Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2011 Posts: 5,846	Great thread... Does a lion have morals when it eats another animal?

01-02-2012, 11:48 PM	#37
chockimon Senior Member Join Date: Aug 2009 Location: Rolling down Olympus Mons. Posts: 1,724	Human beings are like an artificial intelligence, where there's only two constructs, chaos & order. An AI might be chaotic at first, but then it learns over time that being chaotic gets you nowhere and therefore order is the only way. When it comes to this state of knowing & being, it chooses morality over immorality. Having had an NDE & OBE, a state of nirvana exists when your outside of your body. In this state, fear, hatred & evil does not exist.