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Old 27-10-2011, 03:40 PM   #1
bjornyvan
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Default Concrete evidence for that the Holocaust happened



Due to a long life of programming you already know that the Holocaust refers to the German Nazi extermination of 6 million Jews + millions of other innocent and defenseless people as described in every modern work of reference of any size.

Those that don't believe in the Holocaust are referred to as Holocaust deniers, and so it is logical that their opposites be referred to as Holocaust confirmers. This thread which is called "Concrete evidence for that the Holocaust happened" is meant to provide the perfect opportunity for the confirmers to show us the concrete evidence that the Holocaust happened - so that there no longer shall be any doubt whatsoever that it actually did happen.

By concrete evidence is meant photographs, film, documents and physical objects. Sound logical reasoning and arguments on the background of facts - i.e. documented facts regarding Nazi Germany, WWII, the German concentration camps, gas chambers and cremation, the laws of physics, trials and legal cases and so on are also most welcome. Witness testimonies and confessions are of course of interest when their content can be supported by other testimonies and confessions, and recorded facts that make these testimonies and confessions appear more or less believeable.

Witness testimonies, confessions and other recorded statements pertaining to the Holocaust that are found to not be based in truth are also interesting - from the point of view of documenting

1. The general unreliability and uselessness of such testimonies, confessions and recorded statements

and

2. That it's likely that there has been a conspiracy of intentional lying and slander for political and other purposes.

It is my hope that every contributor to the topic will be serious/responsible enough to back up every claim, or proposed fact, with references, quotes, links etc. - and it is my hope that the moderator will allow neither confirmers nor deniers to simply chant "we know it happened because we know it happened", or "we know it didn't happen because we know it didn't happen." Contributors to the topic must take full responsibility for their views and claims and feel obliged to do their very best to present their case.

Arguments about ideology and good vs. evil should be avoided. Stick to the question of whether or not the Holocaust happened. Try to look at it as any other legal/criminal case that is subject to investigation and in which a claim of a crime must be either proven or rejected as null and void based on what is presented in the court.

For newcomers, who don't suffer from ADHD or the "MTV generation attention span", I present this documentary which sheds a lot of light on the Holocaust problem:


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Old 29-10-2011, 09:27 PM   #2
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"Testament of Wilhelm Filderman

A document that should end the discussion and charges relating to Jewish suffering in the days of Marshal Ion Antonescu government

Fully reproduce the so-called Testament of Filderman. In reality it is a formal declaration under oath, given by Wilhelm Filderman in the place in Switzerland having as young Romanian defendants, members of the NPP, in exile, who made the famous attack on the Romanian Legation in Berne. The maximum interest that is testimony submitted on time Governance Filderman Marshal Ion Antonescu. As part of this statement I picked a May bold letters, in bold.

"I, Wilhelm Filderman, PhD in Law from the Faculty of Law in Paris, former president of the Federation of Unions of Romania Communities and president of Hebrew Union of Romanian Jews, currently residing in New York, USA, Hotel Alamac, Broadway at 71st St.., Declare the following:
In my opinion, the act of violence of the five young refugees stormed the Romanian Communist Legation at Berne, on 14-15 February 1955, is the product of despair in which the entire Romanian people was thrown as a result of foreign occupation and terror exercised by the communist regime imposed by force. As a representative of the Romanian citizens of Jewish religion, I was in the exceptional situation that allowed me to closely follow the events that led to the current situation in Romania. And since I believe that this source must be sought psychological explosion of the kind happened in Berne, will be directing my attention to these events.

To highlight the difference between the situation before and after installing the Communists in power by Soviet armies, I remember a few facts.

It was always stated that the regime of Marshal Ion Antonescu was a Nazi regime and even the Marshal himself was executed by agents from Moscow under the accusation of him being fascist. The truth is that the Marshal was the one who ended the fascist movement in Romania, stopping with the start of 1941, the terrorist activities of the Iron Guard and suppressing all political activities of this organization. I myself, answering a question Antonescu's own process mounted by the communists, I said that street fascist terror ended in Romania on January 21, 1941, the day Marshal took draconian measures to stop the anarchy fascist caused by this organization, and to restore order in the country.

During Nazi rule in Europe, have been in contact supported by Marshal Antonescu. He did all he could to soften the fate of Jews exposed to Nazi Germany persecution. I should point out that the Romanian population is not anti-Semitic and the vexations the Romanian Jews suffered were the rescult of the German Nazis and the Iron Guard’s actions.

I witnessed the moving scene of solidarity between Romanians and Jews in times of hardship during the Nazi empire in Europe.

Marshal Antonescu successfully resisted Nazi pressure, which imposed harsh measures against Jews. I mention only two examples:
- Thanks to Marshal’s energetic intervention was stopped the deportation of more than 20,000 Jews from Bucovina. He gave blank passports to save Jews from Nazi terror Hungary, whose life was in danger.
-
- Thanks to its policy, Jewish assets were put under the transitional administration which, leaving the impression that is given to others, it was to preserve a timely refund.

I mention this to emphasize that the Romanian people, as both had very limited extent, control of the country, demonstrated feelings of humanity and political moderation. But the tyranny imposed totalitarian Soviet occupation led by Moscow, conditions have changed. Romanians have not been able to have the slightest authority over their internal business management.

Such situation can be understood easily in a country under military occupation by the Soviets - as it is today Romania - managed by a team of communists, most subservient Kremlin orders.

In the whole Romanian people suffered and are suffering the most terrible oppression under comunisto-Soviet. They were deprived of any rights and freedoms. They confiscated all movable property, was expropriated without compensation, the property. The so-called monetary reform, was subject to periodic confiscation regimes, giving the illusory hope of recovery, more or less, the independence of materials needed for life out of slavery. The communist regime destroyed all the liberal professions, depriving tens of thousands of people to exercise the right job, thus reduced to misery and degradation.

I witnessed all these tragedies. I witnessed political persecution directed against people from democratic political center, I witnessed the imprisonment without trial and without justice judgments.

Omnipotence and ubiquity of the secret police and informers in terror made permanent feature of daily existence of the Romanians.

As for extortion under threat, blackmail and jail, the Jews were the special subject of attention from the communists. Any reason that Jews became to be stolen, robbed, plundered by their latest goods. Persecution of Jews was manifested by multiple obstacles were raised to those who wanted to emigrate to Israel and the shameful exploitation which have become the object. "

Comments:

1. The existence of acetic text has always been challenged by so-called holocaustologists, who argue that it is an invented text editors "Barricade", which was first published as soon after December 1989. If I'm not mistaken, "Barricade" published only fragment of Marshal Ion Antonescu, by far the most interesting.

2. Full text was published (for the first time?) In the amount of memory anti-prison, the Oliviu Beldeanu, Publishing Literary Journal, 1999. Comprehensive volume recounts what happened at Berne during that attack, and all that followed. Or almost all. In Bucharest, Romania that is, the rumor that circulated before 1990 that had a targeted attack: document containing the list of French parliamentarians paid by Moscow to block various projects and especially the bill establishing the Common Market, the starting point of the European Union today! The document was found in a bag by poor Aurel Setu, the target and victim of the attack, under cover of driver KGB colonel of the Legation, has not wanted to give his attackers voluntarily. The story that the then president of the French legislative body, armed with this document, would be summoned to his office all the parliamentarians concerned, had told everyone that his name on the list in question, but he does not believe that list may be true ... How to be French lawmakers in the pay of the Kremlin? Therefore confidently expected vote! And those on the list vote, skillfully blackmailed, was in favor of setting up the European Union today ... Order Moscow could not be followed due to those Romanian!
French hand over their coming to recognize, if they recognize!

3. Returning to his statement Filderman. It's unexpected reference to Ion Antonescu, especially because it is so broad and unrelated to the process. What is the explanation? I would put it at the fact that Jews are called to testify in defense of those accused in the "Great national treason" had then, in 1946, a painful benefit. Most headed by Chief Rabbi Alexander Safran, were not presented, and those who were present, headed by Wilhelm Filderman, gave statements marked by fear of being considered accomplices defunct regime. Who has time to compare this statement in 1955, with the declaration from the same Filderman 1946. And make two columns Filderman statements. Let's see what comes out!

I want to say that this statement has subsided probably Filderman some remorse. Just as happened with Alexander Safran, when he returned home in 1995 and wanted to meet with Serban Alexianu, an old friend, the son of George Alexianu handing to him, at the end of their meeting, a document on which it was written, "Serban Alexianu, friend of our youth, in memory of his illustrious father, who throughout his life and professional activity and especially during the war has made the black heart and disinterest so much for the community. He paid the terrible and totally unfair comunism price Throughout his suffering he’ll be set free.

Wiesel Commission questioned the authenticity of this statement and sent his nephew Rabbi Safran Geneva, to find out if the declaration is handwritten. He found it, but was able to publish and comment in the Committee report that document, so clear and so important. Obviously, poor Safran suffered after this statement. He, poor man, had given the understanding to be published after his death ... I do my fault that I had made him promise that in this respect Mr. Serban Alexianu. As soon as I obtained a copy of the document we have published without remorse, without waiting for Mr. Serban Alexianu agreement. The truth before everything else! ...

4. Interesting word that takes Filderman do it on their property confiscated from Jews in the time of the Marshal. Purely formal, made the eyes of the world, since the European Union, based in Berlin ... Yes, if you judge by Ion Antonescu and the Romanian laws and decrees promulgated for those years, we can talk about high crimes and abuses against Jews . But if you call to action, the effects of anti-Semitic laws, there's no reason for indignation, of anger, nor that I want or as Romanian!

5. "Moving scenes of solidarity between Romaniana and Jews" ... Let us remember the letters addressed to Marshal Filderman, true cries of horror and despair caused by the massacre in which Jews were subjected in Transnistria, where they had been deported by order of Marshal. Response letter is a text Marshal impeccable in all respects. Failing, however, be convincingly through written word, Marshall was forced to resort to extreme solution: the deportation and Filderman, leader of the Jews in Romania, and sent him in Transnistria, to see his eyes were as true and valid Filderman addressed allegations that the Chief of State. Filderman spent several months in Transnistria, was able to meet every Jew and to know the whole truth. Back in Bucharest, Filderman never uttered any word against Marshal then, no complaints about the fate of displaced Jews - this is the word, displaced in Transnistria.

Scenes of human solidarity between Romanians and Jews, were numerous. If there's something I’ll never forgive the Jews and Romanians who keep stating there was Holocaust in Transnistria is the fact that those Jews invent lies and abject crimes that never happened. Accused and I never forgive them and let oblivion hide the fact that those moving scenes of solidarity that happened. So lost in oblivion nothingness remain neconsemnate many wonderful acts of kindness active, effective, heroic! Often related to the sublime, of the fantastic in the moral world order! Yes, there are such fantastic! ...

One example: at one point, a disposition came from Bucharest available to the Jews in Transnistria that those younger than 18 years should be sent back to the country. A Romanian, gendarme, camp commander, told the Jews that were affected by this order to make bags and get ready to go. Were presented to the commander and those Jews who had just turned 19 within a few days or weeks. It was a pity, for a difference of a few days, do not leave them back? Commander has consented, he was right, and added to the list of redundant and persons 19 years ... Once they had young people who were 20 years, the same argument. The result was the same. They rose and old age. And so, until the commander has decided that all its customers meet the age requirements to return the country ... were under 18 years even grandparents of those affected by the order of Bucharest. If I'm not mistaken, in mathematics this is called regression to infinity! ... Obviously, the Germans, as occupants, had access to the text first anti-Semitic laws and decrees, and less or no to Romanian way to apply them. If we speak of a stubborn Holocaust in Romania, we must mention that it's happy Holocaust, the Holocaust made fun of the ridiculous, as a sui generis forms of behavior in history, long practiced by Romanian! See in this regard and diaries of Nicolae Steinhardt, a Romanian Jew converted to Orthodox Christianity.

It seems a fairy tale that just happened things. But a thing of the nightmare and human abjection to note that none of those Jews "under 18", a few hundred, not left his testimony to Yad Vashem about this "moving moment of human solidarity, of Jews and Romanians!" Something-something Jewish honor Wilhelm Filderman saved by this statement made shortly before he goes to the non-existence.

6. From Wilhelm Filderman and left us some memories, carefully written and left in preserving its Secretary Grinberg (?), Who lived in Paris until after 1990. The understanding was that these memories to be taught the Romanian Academy, for storage and publishing as soon as the communist regime in Romania will cease. When, after 1990, in Bucharest, at the Academy, was this true treasure, the takeover was delayed for reasons still unclear, while the Mossad was able to be informed of the existence Filderman's memoirs to intervene in force, bringing this material house the poor Jew, who would be entitled to enter the Romanian people's history if you managed to deliver the precious document. He had a duty, that document carefully preserved and sent Academy Filderman message came from, the Jew whom the American media is often said that "the most important Jew in Europe"! Most likely is that information to the Mossad went from a person in the leadership of the Romanian Academy. For those who seek the truth, why I missed learning and publishing a document of utmost importance for Romania's history, I have a piece of advice, ancient and old: Cherchez la femme! ... Do not stick your hand into the fire, but emit a supposition .

7. Berne Declaration's Filderman allows us to know about how it looks in Memory testimony about Transnistria, the so-called Holocaust. It is likely that we will not ever read these memories. Or we will read many changes, as happened with other texts of the same. I refer primarily to the statement made by Siegfried Jagendorf, former head of the camp at Moghilău - Mogilev. The memo was written immediately after the war, the U.S., where the family emigrated Jagendorf. And was taught at Yad Vashem, as is customary. And so, as is customary, the author's statement was returned to precise what to remove and what to add, that his memories to match the official version of Transnistria. The author, stubborn and rebellious, as few Jews when it comes to the Holocaust, refused to return to the text. Damage the mushrooms! ... After his death, easily suspected in 1970, who found that making changes. But he did so clumsy that smell a fake post ... noodle and dirty ... Like the famous amendments signed by Mihail Sebastian Journal. Signed, but not entirely written by the great Sebastian. Some say, but I do not think like that Vicu Mandra would have accepted the task of great honor and trust to work so intimately with a great writer. A hat head too big for my former party colleague ... But who would have been too high? Both hat and cheek gesture!

8. Finally, the position stated by Filderman in this statement we find a confirmation in the little book written in collaboration with Sabin Filderman Manuel, a report presented at the World Conference held in Stockholm Statistics in 1957, if I remember correctly. So, no trace of the Holocaust. But, unfortunately, with total figures on Legionnaires inaccurate ... They overlook, pleased to see that the highest positions within the Jewish community in Romania those years, the sentence was completely refuted the Holocaust, in all the that it was imagined and made up the.

9. One last statement: the statement was given by Wilhelm Filderman in English and is mentioned case file. The translation I published it is visible above awkward. It is of national interest that the Romanian authorities to intervene in Switzerland to obtain a certified copy of this document. A translation of the world and it is necessary, because fragments of the text due to appear at the history books. No history of the Holocaust, but the history of Romania!

Hopefully not the Mossad before us again! ... And let us take it! Who will prevent them from?"
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Old 30-10-2011, 01:11 PM   #3
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Great post, emerald. As expected none of the confirmers want to go here as they know they have zero evidence for that the Holocaust happened. So I guess we deniers are left here to focus on

1. The lack of evidence for the so-called holocaust.
2. The overwhelming evidence for that the Holocaust is a Big Lie and a conspiracy.
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Old 30-10-2011, 01:47 PM   #4
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Great post, emerald. As expected none of the confirmers want to go here as they know they have zero evidence for that the Holocaust happened. So I guess we deniers are left here to focus on

1. The lack of evidence for the so-called holocaust.
2. The overwhelming evidence for that the Holocaust is a Big Lie and a conspiracy.
Since I'm trying (so far with no success) to engage you on proof for the Holocaust, I suggest you show your proof for a conspiracy. If there was a conspiracy, then this must have been orchestrated. You are very fond of going on about "proof", so I assume you have a lot to say on how the conspiracy was orchestrated and presumably can name some of the people involved or at least how it was organised. If you like, we can use the same format I suggested on the other thread - it's up to you.

Whatever you decide, please present your proof of a conspiracy.

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Old 30-10-2011, 02:27 PM   #5
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No. The title of this thread is not "Concrete evidence for that the Holocaust is a conspiracy." The title of this thread is "Concrete evidence for that the Holocaust happened." So, if you believe that the Holocaust in fact happened, then this thread provides the perfect opportunity for you to present evidence that it did. And we are waiting for this evidence. We have been waiting for a long time.

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Old 30-10-2011, 02:39 PM   #6
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No. The title of this thread is not "Concrete evidence for that the Holocaust is a conspiracy." The title of this thread is "Concrete evidence for that the Holocaust happened." So, if you believe that the Holocaust in fact happened, then this thread provides the perfect opportunity for you to present evidence that it did. And we are waiting for this evidence. We have been waiting for a long time.
And - as you well know - I am attempting to engage you in a discussion (this is a discussion forum after all) of evidence on another thread. I am simply waiting for you to engage in this discussion you so often go on about.

Would it matter if I started a thread called "concrete evidence of the holohoax"? Would that make any difference?

You are very loud in banging on about "proof" - yet here you are not only refusing to discuss evidence for the Holocaust but also refusing to turn your oh-so-exacting standards to a claim of your own. I would have thought you would have reveled at the opportunity to demonstrate how this conspiracy was orchestrated in a practical sense..?

I really think you should pull your finger out and start having some sensible discussions on the topic. As it is, you are showing yourself to be nothing but a windbag.
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Old 30-10-2011, 03:49 PM   #7
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And - as you well know - I am attempting to engage you in a discussion (this is a discussion forum after all) of evidence on another thread.
That is of no interest. We are not here to discuss what's going on on some other thread, but to participate in this one. And here the question is: Can you present evidence for that the Holocaust happened?

Obviously you cannot, so I suggest you go back to "another thread."
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Old 30-10-2011, 03:59 PM   #8
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One would think if there was a systematic murder of 6million there would be some kind of evidence..
so come on believers now is your chance.
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Old 30-10-2011, 04:06 PM   #9
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I just wish I could show you the photographs that my father had, taken showing the dead Jews that he photographed during a clean up operation after the war - all the jews that had been killed found in the camps. He was in a regiment some of whom had to go to several camps to sort out after the Germans were taken away. Of course the holocaust happened and anyone who denys it is mad and in total denial. I cannot show the pictures because after he had shown them, when we were old enough to understand, he insisted on destroying them. Tgey bought back too many bad memories for him. It was one wartime job he wished he never had to do.
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Old 30-10-2011, 04:09 PM   #10
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One would think if there was a systematic murder of 6million there would be some kind of evidence..
so come on believers now is your chance.
If you would prefer to take bjornyvan's place in my offer of a systematic discussion of items of evidence, please let me know as he seems to have bottled it.

this thread.

http://forum.davidicke.com/showthrea...=188627&page=5

Cheers.

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Old 30-10-2011, 04:11 PM   #11
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I just wish I could show you the photographs that my father had, taken showing the dead Jews that he photographed during a clean up operation after the war - all the jews that had been killed found in the camps. He was in a regiment some of whom had to go to several camps to sort out after the Germans were taken away. Of course the holocaust happened and anyone who denys it is mad and in total denial. I cannot show the pictures because after he had shown them, when we were old enough to understand, he insisted on destroying them. Tgey bought back too many bad memories for him. It was one wartime job he wished he never had to do.
I have seen pictures of piles of bodies close to camps and the surviving prisoners.
They all looked starved to death as you would expect in a prison camp of the side that lost the war and was documented by the nazis thousands did die at the camps.
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Old 30-10-2011, 04:22 PM   #12
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The pictures I speak of were taken outside a gas chamber.
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Old 30-10-2011, 04:29 PM   #13
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I have seen pictures of piles of bodies close to camps and the surviving prisoners.
They all looked starved to death as you would expect in a prison camp of the side that lost the war and was documented by the nazis thousands did die at the camps.

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The pictures I speak of were taken outside a gas chamber.
How do you know?

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Old 30-10-2011, 04:50 PM   #14
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I know because my father saw the evidence and he did not make this sort of thing up.
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Old 30-10-2011, 06:05 PM   #15
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I know because my father saw the evidence and he did not make this sort of thing up.
Why do you call yourself "sceptic"? You don't seem very skeptical. Your father who obviously, like so many others, believed the Holocaust propaganda, saw dead people outside of a building said to be a "gas chamber"? Or did he just see a photograph? And this is proof to you that the Holocaust happened? How many people did he see? 1 million? 2 million? Maybe all 6 million?

I think you can forget calling yourself a skeptic.

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Old 10-11-2011, 12:54 PM   #16
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Concrete evidence that Himmler picked flowers:



It is unknown whether he gassed and cremated them later when the camera man had gone home.
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Old 10-11-2011, 01:21 PM   #17
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Because himler picked flowers he could not order the death of millions? ted bundy worked at a samaritain crisis line. What is your point. This is pretty weak argument even from you.
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Old 10-11-2011, 01:47 PM   #18
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I have seen pictures of piles of bodies close to camps and the surviving prisoners.
They all looked starved to death as you would expect in a prison camp of the side that lost the war and was documented by the nazis thousands did die at the camps.
What documents? How the Bits used bulldozers to to bury the typhus dead?



Visibly proof the US/UK "gassed" the Dresdeners.
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Old 10-11-2011, 01:58 PM   #19
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Actually the UK firebombed dresden. (A fact I personally find appalling)We also bombed a poison gas factory in dresden.again what is your point the UK was at war with Germany. A war Germany started . The Germans also droped bombs on civilians in the UK . Crimes during ww2 were commited by both sides. I don't think any one denies this.
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Old 10-11-2011, 02:02 PM   #20
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Actually the UK firebombed dresden. (A fact I personally find appalling)We also bombed a poison gas factory in dresden.again what is your point the UK was at war with Germany. A war Germany started . The Germans also droped bombs on civilians in the UK . Crimes during ww2 were commited by both sides. I don't think any one denies this.
Nope, the UK declared war on Germany on 3.September 1939.

Get your facts straight.

The UK developed a plan to carpet bomb cities. The main perpetrators of this plan were Lord Vansittart and Churchill's jewish grey eminnence Frederick Lindemann.

Get your facts straight.

Ask for evidence of what I am saying, and I will deliver it.
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