Fred and Rosemary West

[geewhizz]

Hi,

After reading the very in depth book by Howard Sounes, it seems clear to me that we will never know the FULL story about this until the case is reopened....i.e

Where are all the missing bones?? There were mainly the small bones from the hands and feet along with some kneecaps.

Fred's suicide

Black Magic Bar?? as was called Roses Whore bedroom entertainment area

West Indian connections

West Indian Voodoo maybe??

the list goes on and on.

And something that a lot of people do not know is that Fred Wests first kill was a small boy whom Fred crushed to death in a Ice Cream van he used to drive while living in Glasgow with his first wife Rene (who he killed).

Very Satanic undertones if you ask me.

The NSPCC shredded evidence from a phone call from one of the West's abused children in 1984 as so did the Social services.

[geewhizz]

The ITV drama 'appropriate adult' was based on this book.

They even spoke about the missing bones. Damn, we will never know what really happened.

I sooo want to know.

[yamayama]

If you want to know if there was an occult element then you will need to look at the clinical evidence of how the victims died.

How did West kill his own daughter? Was there any suggestion that there was focus on damage to the sexual organs or the anus of the women? Where was the concentration of the DNA material found in the West's house? And what type of Blood and DNA material?(vaginal blood, anal blood, stomach fluid etc)

[quietgirl]

I thought "Appropriate Adult" was really gripping, in a dark kind of way. Looking forward to part 2 tonight.

As to the Wests indulging in the occult/black magic, I'm not sure either of them were bright enough - they were both barely literate. (Unless, of course, they were being "used" by someone). I think they were just acting on base instinct - Fred West suffered a head injury when he was a teenager and apparently really went downhill after that. Just IMHO though. As you say, what we know of these appalling crimes are just the tip of the iceberg...

Mandy

[pheony]

Originally Posted by quietgirl

I thought "Appropriate Adult" was really gripping, in a dark kind of way. Looking forward to part 2 tonight.

As to the Wests indulging in the occult/black magic, I'm not sure either of them were bright enough - they were both barely literate. (Unless, of course, they were being "used" by someone). I think they were just acting on base instinct - Fred West suffered a head injury when he was a teenager and apparently really went downhill after that. Just IMHO though. As you say, what we know of these appalling crimes are just the tip of the iceberg...

Mandy

I agree with this.

[geewhizz]

Originally Posted by quietgirl

I thought "Appropriate Adult" was really gripping, in a dark kind of way. Looking forward to part 2 tonight.

As to the Wests indulging in the occult/black magic, I'm not sure either of them were bright enough - they were both barely literate. (Unless, of course, they were being "used" by someone). I think they were just acting on base instinct - Fred West suffered a head injury when he was a teenager and apparently really went downhill after that. Just IMHO though. As you say, what we know of these appalling crimes are just the tip of the iceberg...

Mandy

It was good (part 2 tonight). They mentioned the hanging of children in the barn (which was demolished) and his brother John who was involved.

These two both committed suicide before sentencing. Rose silenced and will never be released or heard.

It was such a corrupt case and the appropriate adult nearly collapsed the trial. I do believe Fred when he stated that many Police officers used to use Rose's sexual services.

This story was probably among the worst crimes in history. Many many others dead and involved too.

[sorath]

I don't think for one minute that the bodies recovered were the only ones. I have been interested in the occult/satanic element to the West's case for years. I don't think we will ever know the truth. Maybe it has been suppressed on purpose because senior police officers/masons could be involved.

[cathar]

If you want to read something with a bigger picture than Fred West try reading Peter Levenda's Sinister Forces{a Grimoria of American Political Witchcraft........}

The bigger picture is much more fascinating IMO....

[sorath]

Originally Posted by cathar

If you want to read something with a bigger picture than Fred West try reading Peter Levenda's Sinister Forces{a Grimoria of American Political Witchcraft........}

The bigger picture is much more fascinating IMO....

I agree it is much more interesting but I am still intrigued by a case the the West's. It's easier to imagine satanic rituals taking place in the upper echelons of society, where privacy and money are no problem. It's quite a different thing to imagine it taking place in your next door neighbours house.

[alwayswatching]

Originally Posted by geewhizz

Hi,

After reading the very in depth book by Howard Sounes, it seems clear to me that we will never know the FULL story about this until the case is reopened....i.e

Where are all the missing bones?? There were mainly the small bones from the hands and feet along with some kneecaps.

Fred's suicide

Black Magic Bar?? as was called Roses Whore bedroom entertainment area

West Indian connections

West Indian Voodoo maybe??

the list goes on and on.

And something that a lot of people do not know is that Fred Wests first kill was a small boy whom Fred crushed to death in a Ice Cream van he used to drive while living in Glasgow with his first wife Rene (who he killed).

Very Satanic undertones if you ask me.

The NSPCC shredded evidence from a phone call from one of the West's abused children in 1984 as so did the Social services.

i too have read the "sounes book".what i found intriguing,was "the missing four hours".when the police came with the warrant to search the house and garden.rose phoned fred to come home,he was 15 minutes away in work,yet he arrived home four hours later.

it was touched on in the itv drama albeit cryptically.rose was seen phoning fred and said something along the lines of the police are here to search the house and garden,"do what you have to do"then get home.

where did he go,and maybe more importantly who did he see.i,m convinced more will come out eventually.

[lightgiver]

Originally Posted by sorath

Maybe it has been suppressed on purpose because senior police officers/masons could be involved.

How so ?

Originally Posted by sorath

I don't think we will ever know the truth.

You could say that about everything.

http://forum.davidicke.com/showpost....&postcount=276

[lightgiver]

Originally Posted by geewhizz

It was good (part 2 tonight). They mentioned the hanging of children in the barn (which was demolished) and his brother John who was involved.

These two both committed suicide before sentencing. Rose silenced and will never be released or heard.

It was such a corrupt case and the appropriate adult nearly collapsed the trial. I do believe Fred when he stated that many Police officers used to use Rose's sexual services.

This story was probably among the worst crimes in history. Many many others dead and involved too.

Did he drive a mini by any chance..? or ride a motorbike..?

somthing else of interest here...http://forum.davidicke.com/showpost....&postcount=295

Originally Posted by The Smiths

The Moors murders were carried out by Ian Brady and Myra Hindley between July 1963 and October 1965, in and around what is now Greater Manchester, England. The victims were five children aged between 10 and 17—Pauline Reade, John Kilbride, Keith Bennett, Lesley Ann Downey and Edward Evans—at least four of whom were sexually assaulted. The murders are so named because two of the victims were discovered in graves dug on Saddleworth Moor; a third grave was discovered on the moor in 1987, over 20 years after Brady and Hindley's trial in 1966. The body of a fourth victim, Keith Bennett, is also suspected to be buried there. Despite repeated searches of the area, as of 2010 it remains undiscovered.

Saddleworth Moor

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...lphin_Hill.jpg

Dovestones Reservoir is a reservoir situated in a valley above the village of Greenfield, in Saddleworth, Greater Manchester,

The A635 road, known locally as the Isle of Skye road, passes across the moor. It takes its name from a public house which was sited at Wessenden Head before it was demolished after a fire.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...rown_knoll.jpg

is an area of the South Pennines in northern England. It is a sparsely populated moorland and millstone grit divided between the metropolitan boroughs of Oldham and Kirklees, in Greater Manchester and West Yorkshire respectively.

Ian Brady (left) and Myra Hindley, 1965
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi..._Murderers.jpg

Organisations such as West Yorkshire Police Authority and West Yorkshire Passenger Transport Executive continue to operate on this basis.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...p_2010.svg.png

Titus Salt's mill in Saltaire, Bradford is an UNESCO World Heritage Site.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...pool_Canal.jpg

Peter William Sutcliffe (born 2 June 1946) is an English serial killer who was dubbed "The Yorkshire Ripper". In 1981 Sutcliffe was convicted of murdering 13 women and attacking several others.

West Yorkshire is a metropolitan county within the Yorkshire and the Humber region of England with a population of 2.2 million. West Yorkshire came into existence as a metropolitan county in 1974 after the passage of the Local Government Act 1972

http://forum.davidicke.com/showpost....&postcount=928

Emmerdale, known as Emmerdale Farm until 1989, is a popular and critically acclaimed British soap opera that has been broadcast on ITV since 1972. It is set in the fictional village of Emmerdale (known as Beckindale until 1994) in West Yorkshire,

Characterised by the press as "the most evil woman in Britain",[1]Myra Hindley made several appeals against her life sentence, claiming she was a reformed woman and no longer a danger to society, but she was never released. She died in 2002, aged 60. Brady was declared criminally insane in 1985, since when he has been confined in the high-security Ashworth Hospital. He has made it clear that he never wants to be released, and has repeatedly asked that he be allowed to die.

A ritual is a set of actions, performed mainly for their symbolic value. It may be prescribed by a religion or by the traditions of a community. The term usually excludes actions which are arbitrarily chosen by the performers.

Emmerdale Farm - Episode 1 - P1 1972

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9t73xv9VA8k
http://youtu.be/m_aHnieGXn4

All rights go to ITV Productions.

The Sugden family in the first episode
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...7s_Funeral.png
A ceremony is an event of ritual significance, performed on a special occasion.

The bodies of three of the victims were found in this area

Part of the ceremony of the Changing of the Guard in Whitehall, London.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...london.arp.jpg

Rituals of various kinds are a feature of almost all known human societies, past or present. They include not only the various worship rites and sacraments of organized religions and cults, but also the rites of passage of certain societies, atonement and purification rites, oaths of allegiance,

In psychology, the term ritual is sometimes used in a technical sense for a repetitive behavior systematically used by a person to neutralize or prevent anxiety; it is a symptom of obsessive-compulsive disorder.

The murders, reported in almost every English-language newspaper in the world,were the result of what Malcolm MacCulloch, professor of forensic psychiatry at Cardiff University,

http://forum.davidicke.com/showpost....ostcount=19125...http://forum.davidicke.com/showthrea...181432&page=68

used for the outdoor exterior scenes from 1976-1997.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...oltmay2005.JPG

The purpose built village, built by Yorkshire Television in Eccup, West Yorkshire.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ohn_Turner.jpg

Much location footage is carried out in other areas of the City of Leeds, West Yorkshire such as the fictional market town of Hotten which is actually shot in Otley, a market town on the outskirts of Leeds. The Benton Park School in the Rawdon area of the city and the primary school in Farnley were also used as shooting locations. Indoor scenes are mostly filmed at Yorkshire Television's 'Emmerdale Production Centre' on Kirkstall Road, Leeds (located next to the main Yorkshire Television's Leeds Studios).

Redwood Building
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...odBuilding.JPG

In June 2010, the University launched three new Research Institutes, each of which offers a new approach to a major issue. They are the Cancer Stem Cell Research Institute, the Sustainable Places Research Institute, and the Neurosciences & Mental Health Research Institute.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...university.jpg
Motto Welsh: Gwirionedd Undod A Chytgord
Motto in English Truth Unity and Harmony

called a "concatenation of circumstances", which brought together a "young woman with a tough personality, taught to hand out and receive violence from an early age" and a "sexually sadistic psychopath"...

Saddleworth Moor, viewed from Hollin Brown Knoll. The bodies of three of the victims were found in this area ???
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...rown_knoll.jpg

The full extent of Brady and Hindley's killing spree did not come to light until their confessions in 1985, as both had until then maintained their innocence.

The empty plot where 16 Wardle Brook Avenue in Hattersley, once stood. The house was demolished by the local CounciL.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ook_avenue.jpg

Arrest

Early on the morning of 7 October, shortly after Smith's call, Superintendent Bob Talbot of the Cheshire Police arrived at the back door of 16 Wardle Brook Avenue, wearing a borrowed baker's overall to cover his uniform.

A photograph taken by Ian Brady of Myra Hindley with her dog, Puppet, on Saddleworth Moor

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...%27s_grave.jpg

Trial



The trial was held over 14 days beginning on 19 April 1966, in front of Mr Justice Fenton Atkinson.

Hindley denied any knowledge that the photographs of Saddleworth Moor found by police had been taken near the graves of their victims

The tape recording of Lesley Anne Downey, on which the voices of Brady and Hindley were clearly audible, was played in open court. Hindley admitted that her attitude towards the child was "brusque and cruel",

During the 1987 search for Pauline Reade and Keith Bennett, Hindley recalled that she had seen the rocks of Hollin Brown Knoll silhouetted against the night sky.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...knoll_a635.jpg

The BBC reported on 1 July 2009 that Greater Manchester Police had officially given up the search for Keith Bennett, saying that "only a major scientific breakthrough or fresh evidence would see the hunt for his body restart"
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...urders_map.jpg

Hoe Grain leading to Shiny Brook, the area in which police believe Bennett's undiscovered body is buried[82]
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...2/HoeGrain.jpg

Ashworth Hospital, where Ian Brady is incarcerated as of 2010
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...uk_-_90341.jpg

Parkhurst is a neighbourhood northwest of the town of Newport, Isle of Wight. It has few amenities, but a large residential population.

It is notable for housing H.M.P. Isle of Wight, on three sites, formerly three separate prisons: the well-known Parkhurst Prison itself, Camp Hill, and Albany.

A number of well-known criminals were accommodated in the Parkhurst prisons, including John Duddy, the Yorkshire Ripper Peter Sutcliffe and the Kray twins.

John Francis Duddy (born 19 June 1979, Derry, Northern Ireland) is an Irish middleweight professional boxer. Duddy fights under the moniker of Ireland's John Duddy or The Derry Destroyer.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...John_duddy.jpg

Following his conviction, Brady was moved to Durham prison, where he asked to live in solitary confinement

Part of Stalybridge Country Park, where Hindley's ashes were scattered in 2003
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...shesValley.jpg

The Dingle
David and Maureen Smith, pictured around the time of the murders. David Smith's statement to the police led to Brady's arrest.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedi...ee_hindley.jpg


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moors_murders

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Attorne...land_and_Wales

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashworth_Hospital

http://forum.davidicke.com/showpost....postcount=5663

http://forum.davidicke.com/showthrea...160595&page=25

http://forum.davidicke.com/showpost....postcount=5667

[sorath]

Originally Posted by lightgiver

How so ?



You could say that about everything.

http://forum.davidicke.com/showpost....&postcount=276

I am not saying that this did happen. It's mere speculation and wild speculation at that. It's good to look from all angles at cases likes these, as they never appear as clear cut as one may first think.

[nirvana]

Give it time and the occult researchers will be writting books on this case adding their own spin for publicity and sales?

[lightgiver]

Peter Sutcliffe was a copy-cat killer, responsible for only four of the thirteen murders which he ‘confessed’ to. He had been eliminated twelve times by the police because he was "blood group O". The Yorkshire Ripper was known to be "blood group B".

Yorkshire Ripper, Manchester, 1978 - YouTube

Yorkshire Ripper, Manchester, 1978 - YouTube

The police knew that two men were involved in the bizarre series of murders, but tactical blunders made it expedient to make a deal with the copy-cat killer, who was offered ten years in a luxury mental home for his ‘confessions’ to everything, by a police force desperate to close the file...

http://visual.merriam-webster.com/im...een-hammer.jpg

After twenty-five years of living a lie, it's very difficult for the people of Leeds and Bradford to admit that Peter Sutcliffe is NOT the Yorkshire Ripper. The Yorkshire Ripper was never caught and is still killing our women right now. This game of pretending is a betrayal of every woman in England.

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showt...=123340&page=2
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showt...100575&page=22
http://www.yorkshireripper.com/
http://www.indymedia.org.uk/en/regio...06/343750.html
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=188796

[lightgiver]

Austin Mini Van For sale - YouTube

Austin Mini Van For sale - YouTube

A commercial panel van (sedan delivery) rated at ¼-ton load capacity. Built on the longer Traveller chassis but without side windows, it proved popular in 1960s Britain as a cheaper alternative to the car: it was classed as a commercial vehicle and as such carried no sales tax. A set of simple stamped steel slots served in place of a more costly chrome grille. The Mini Van was renamed as the Mini 95 in 1978, the number representing the gross vehicle weight of 0.95 tons. 521,494 were built. Despite this renaming, the motoring public continued to call it the Mini Van...

renault fuego-leyenda (parte 1) - YouTube

renault fuego-leyenda (parte 1) - YouTube

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showt...t=48933&page=7

Mini - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Mini - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Mini - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showp...4&postcount=86

[kiwimaj]

Originally Posted by sorath

I don't think for one minute that the bodies recovered were the only ones. I have been interested in the occult/satanic element to the West's case for years. I don't think we will ever know the truth. Maybe it has been suppressed on purpose because senior police officers/masons could be involved.

..yup, probably VERY right in your assumptions!

[lightgiver]

Originally Posted by zhiba

SaVile is buried in Woodlands Cemetery Scarborough.

YouTube (Short URL)

YouTube (Short URL)

Using the word "hag" to translate terms found in non-English (or non-modern English) is contentious, since use of the word is often associated with a misogynistic attitude.A hag is a wizened old woman, or a kind of fairy or goddess having the appearance of such a woman, often found in folklore and children's tales such as Hansel and Gretel. Hags are often seen as malevolent, but may also be one of the chosen forms of shapeshifting deities, such as the Morrígan or Badb, who are seen as neither wholly beneficent nor malevolent.In Irish and Scottish mythology, the Cailleach is a hag goddess concerned with creation, harvest, the weather and sovereignty. In partnership with the goddess Brìde, she is a seasonal goddess, seen as ruling the winter months while Brìde rules the summer. In Scotland, a group of hags, known as The Cailleachan (The Storm Hags) are seen as personifications of the elemental powers of nature, especially in a destructive aspect. They are said to be particularly active in raising the windstorms of spring, during the period known as A Chailleach. The term "fold" is used in geology when one or a stack of originally flat and planar surfaces, such as sedimentary strata, are bent or curved as a result of permanent deformation...Spa Road lies in a quiet residential area backing onto Dog Kennel Wood and is also a short distance to Mill Dam Wood. ..

London 5am. It’s a clear morning in Hackney. I am in the car ready to travel to my home county of Lancashire. I choose the poem for the workers of the South Bank Arts Centre in London and press send. Hundreds of workers from the Security Guards to The chief executive, shall receive the poem in their inbox on Wednesday. It’s a piece I wrote called Childrens Home. “Care” is a one word oxymoron. There are sixty thousand children in Children Homes in Britian. There are sixty thousand adults in prisons in Britain. One third, one whole third of that number in Prison are adults who have been in care. Ask yourself which group of sixty thousand people do you hear about on a weekly basis in the national newspapers. In other words if you take care of the children in your care you can improve the state of prisons. How bizarre.

As a teenager I used to stand on the rutkins (large hills of earth thrown up through the Pretoria pit disaster in the early 1900s) and watch the sunset shadows crawl across Lancashire. And the tower that stabs the skyline is from strangeways in Manchester. It’s a stark reminder to us in the childrens homes of where many will be heading. We were not criminals we were children in care through no fault of our own. Strangeways indeed. We arrive at Howe Bridge Cemetry on Lovers Lane within ten minutes of the beginning of an end of someone.. I am so glad that I don’t drink anymore. I have left the Vehicle Pass from the latitude festival on the left hand side of the front window of the car. It’s from The Latitude Festival where I was a couple of days ago and it says “ACCESS ALL AREAS. ARTIST” . There are manicured bushes next to the car park. There’s a crowd in shadow and I know it’s Andrews. It’s a beautiful day...


The person who died was Andrew McGinty and he was as he saw it “a younger version of myself”. He too was the only black in the village and in Wigan Boroughs notorious Care system. He went into care at 18 months old and was there until 18 years of age. I went into care at eight months old and left at seventeen years of age. He was eight years younger than me and fostered by a lovely kind family from 18 months . He left them in his teens which as he entered the childrens homes is where I first heard of him. The last place he was in after being in a succession of children homes was the last place I was in. It was called Wood End. Wood End had a terrible reputation in the Wigan area and was often used as a sort of clearing house for children whom the social service had enough of and for children who were in their adolescence and leaving care. It was run like a military camp and was also used for children on remand...

Originally Posted by zhiba

i think that Sutcliffe claimed not to have comitted all the murders, also...

Sutcliffe also had blood type B while blood type O was found at some of the crime scenes.

http://www.yorkshireripper.co.uk/

http://blog.lemnsissay.com/2007/07/16/lucky-hollow/
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showp...1&postcount=14
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Atherto...ter_Manchester
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showp...&postcount=150

[lightgiver]

In 1896, Sigmund Freud presented his revolutionary “seduction theory,” arguing that acts of sexual abuse and violence inflicted on children are the direct cause of adult mental illness. Nine years later, Freud completely reversed his position, insisting that these sexual memories were actually fantasies that never happened. Why did Freud retract the seduction theory? And why has the psychoanalytic community gone to such lengths to conceal that retraction?

The circumstances surrounding the book's publication, as well as the fact that there had been growing mistrust of psychoanalysis since the 1960s, especially among feminists, meant that The Assault on Truth received a mixed response, including "outspoken and enduring condemnation from reviewers within the psychoanalytic profession and their sympathizers." Negative comments about the book were made by several reviewers, including Anthony Storr. Born in London, Storr was a child who was to endure the typical trauma of early 20th century boarding schools. He was educated at Winchester College, Christ's College (University of Cambridge), and Westminster Hospital.He qualified as a doctor in 1944, and subsequently specialized in psychiatry. Storr was known for his psychoanalytical portraits of historical figures...

The Assault on Truth has been credited by Webster with accelerating the spread of the recovered memory movement by implying that most or all serious cases of neurosis are caused by child sexual abuse, that orthodox psychoanalysts were collectively engaged in a massive denial of this fact, and that an equally massive collective effort to retrieve painful memories of incest was required. Rycroft writes, “Although Masson says that he is ‘inclined to accept’ the view that the incidence of sexual violence in the early lives of children may be as high as one in three in the general population…he gives no evidence or references to support his inclination.” This paraphrase of my words omits the references I explicitly name in this passage; what I wrote (p. 189) is: “I am inclined to accept the view of many recent authors, Florence Rush, Alice Miller, Judith Herman and Louise Armstrong, among others, that the incidence of sexual violence in the early lives of children is much higher than generally acknowledged (Judith Herman believes it to be as high as one in every three women in the general population…).”

http://www.nybooks.com/articles/arch...gination=false

Psychoanalysis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Psychoanalysis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Psychoanalysis - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia