Go Back   David Icke's Official Forums > Main Forums > Hidden Science / Advanced Technology / Top Secret
Register FAQ Chat Social Groups Calendar Mark Forums Read

Reply
 
Thread Tools
Old 12-03-2011, 03:58 AM   #1
pi3141
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,011
Default Car Engine With Water or Steam Injection

Ok, as I'm in looking at weird and wonderful inventions phase, I'll bring this subject to your attention.

Injecting water or steam into a car's combustion engine to increase performance and fuel economy.

There are many rumours of 90mpg carburettors and novel methods for improving car MPG, apparently, one rumour has it that the reason car manufacturers introduced cleaning agents into petrol was to prevent these super carburettors being developed as it stopped them working. There are lots of stories you can look up.

However, I had an experience with this sort of thing years ago and it always made me wonder what was going on and why, if these ideas worked they weren't being used.

I recently wondered about buying or making a small 12v kettle type device, with a long rubber hose connected to the air filter of a car. When your driving, you heat water in the kettle (which has been sealed) and the steam is forced down the tube and fed into the air filter, where it is sucked into the combustion chambers.

I thought, this would add Hydrogen and Oxygen to the cylinder as extra fuel. Thus improving the combustion process, increasing the power and fuel efficiency.

I've done a quick search with some interesting results which I will present here.

Turns out its not difficult to do at all - and you don't need to use steam, just pump a small amount of water in.

Last edited by pi3141; 12-03-2011 at 04:09 AM.
pi3141 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2011, 04:00 AM   #2
pi3141
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,011
Default

From Mother Earth News
circa 1979

Quote:
WATER INJECTION WIZARDRY

Pat Goodman developed a simple water injection system to be used on any gasoline automobile engine. Gas mileage can be increased from %20 to %50.


During the second World War, fighter pilots could push a button and inject a stream of water into the turbochargers of their monstrous powerplants . . . to get extra thrust on takeoff. Some time later, Chrysler (among other auto manufacturers) installed water injection on a number of its large displacement engines . . . again for a performance increase. Indeed, water injection—used to produce power increases—is nothing new.

But using "Adam's ale" to save gasoline sure is a change of pace! You see, until recently there just hasn't been any way to effectively control the volume and atomization of the tiny amount of fluid needed to adapt H20 injection to a small, economical engine. And typically enough, while big technology has failed to figure out how such regulation could be handled, a small back-lot entrepreneur ( with a wealth of experience and ingenuity, but a paucity of dollars and degrees) has succeeded.

Pat Goodman installed his first water injection system (on a Porsche racing car) in 1964, and the racing organization responded by banning his device . . . it made the vehicle too fast! Undaunted, Pat decided that—even if the racing establishment wasn't interested in "improving the breed", he was.

Today, several near-bankruptcies later, the innovative mechanic owns a vehicle that only the government could argue with: a 1978 Ford Fiesta . . . that gets 50 MPG in normal around-town driving. (This impressive figure has been verified by a MOTHER staffer, who accompanied Goodman on a 48mile jaunt around Winchester, Virginia. During the drive—which Pat accomplished with, if anything, more speed than normal—the small four-cylinder sipped only .95 gallon of unleaded gas.)



Read more: http://www.motherearthnews.com/Green...#ixzz1GLn6MlIb
pi3141 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2011, 04:02 AM   #3
pi3141
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,011
Default

From Wiki -

Quote:
Water injection (engines)

In internal combustion engines, water injection, also known as anti-detonant injection, is a method for cooling the combustion chambers of engines by adding water to the cylinder or incoming fuel-air mixture, allowing for greater compression ratios and largely eliminating the problem of engine knocking (detonation). This effectively increases the octane rating of the fuel, meaning that performance gains can be obtained when used in conjunction with a supercharger or turbocharger, altered spark ignition timing, and other modifications.

Water injection is also used in some jet turbine engines, when a momentary high-thrust setting is needed, and in some shaft turbine engines, to increase power and fuel efficiency and improve pollutant emissions.

Link - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Water_injection_(engines)
pi3141 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2011, 04:04 AM   #4
pi3141
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,011
Default

More from Wiki -

Quote:
Crower six stroke

The Crower six-stroke engine is a claimed high-efficiency variant of an internal combustion engine under development by Bruce Crower.

Two extra strokes are added to the customary internal combustion engine four stroke Otto cycle, which makes a six stroke engine. A third down-stroke is a "steam stroke" and a third up-stroke exhausts the expanded steam while venting heat from the engine.

The engine cold starts on the Otto cycle, coasting through the fifth and sixth strokes for a short period. After the combustion chamber temperature reaches approximately 400 degrees Fahrenheit (200 °C), a mechanical operation phases in the fifth and sixth strokes. Just before the fifth stroke, water is injected directly into the hot combustion chamber via the engine's fuel injector pump, creating steam and another power stroke. The phase change from liquid to steam removes the excess heat of the combustion stroke forcing the piston down (a second power stroke). As a substantial portion of engine heat now leaves the cylinder in the form of steam, no cooling system radiator is required. A proportion of the energy that is dissipated in conventional arrangements by the radiator in a water-based cooling system has been converted into additional power strokes.

In Crower's prototype, the water for the steam portion of the cycle is consumed at a rate approximately equal to that of the fuel, but in production models, the steam will be recaptured in a condenser for re-use. Heat will be available from the condenser to provide interior heating of the vehicle, much as a conventional heater core works in cars and trucks today.

Link - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crower_six_stroke
pi3141 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2011, 04:06 AM   #5
pi3141
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,011
Default

Wiki again -

Quote:
MW 50

MW 50 (Methanol-Wasser 50) was a 50-50 mixture of methanol and water (German: Wasser) that was often sprayed into the supercharger of World War II aircraft engines primarily for its anti-detonant effect, allowing the use of increased boost pressures.

Secondary effects were cooling of the engine and charge cooling. Higher boost was only effective at altitudes below the full-throttle height, where the supercharger could still provide additional boost pressure that was otherwise wasted, while the smaller secondary effects were useful even above that altitude.

MW 50 is something of a misnomer, as it is actually a mixture of three fluids: 50% methanol acting primarily to achieve optimum anti-detonant effect, secondarily as an anti-freeze; 49.5% water; and 0.5% Schutzöl 39, an oil-based anti-corrosion additive. The similar MW 30 increased the water to 69.5% and decreased methanol to 30%.[1] This increased the cooling performance but made it easier to freeze, the mixture intended to be used for lower-altitude missions. EW 30 and EW 50 mixtures also existed, which substituted methanol with ethanol; in emergency, pure water could be used.

The effect of MW 50 injection could be dramatic. Simply turning on the system allowed the engine to pull in more air due to the charge cooling effect, boosting performance by about 100 hp (75 kW) on the BMW 801 and DB 605. However, the MW 50 also allowed the supercharger to be run at much higher boost levels as well, for a combined increase of 500 hp (370 kW). At sea level, this allowed the 1,600 hp (1,200 kW) engine to run at over 2,000 hp (1,500 kW). MW 50 was fully effective up to about 6,000 m (20,000 ft), above which it added only about 4% extra power, due largely to charge cooling.

Link - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MW_50
pi3141 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 12-03-2011, 09:25 PM   #6
apollo_gnomon
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 6,396
Default

Thanks for splitting this topic off into it's own thread. It's very intersting. I've heard of using water injection for supercharged engines, but hadn't heard of of the 6-stroke or the MW50.

The biggest obstacle to improving efficiency of internal combustion engines is the need to throw away perfecly good expanding gasses. Modern cars have better fuel and spark management, and that's most of the efficency gain compared to 1970 carb engines. The expansion of the combustion gasses slows down as expansion progresses, but the pistons can't be allowed to slow down during power stroke -- that would put drag load on the rest of the engine. That's why drag racers have actual flames shooting out the pipes



. . . they're taking the fastest expansion only and throwing away the rest. Like skimming the topmost cream off of milk and throwing away half the cream and all the milk.

Two engineering challenges I see to injecting water or steam into gasoline or alcohol otto-cycle engines:
1, Engines have iron rings and combustion cyclinder sleeves which could rust and pit if residual moisture is left in the cylinder between uses.

2, Water for steam applications needs to be super clean, distilled, pure water. Any minerals build up as scale. Steam trains using random water had a mud box under the boiler where mineral sludge would accumulate. The steam used for power had to be "dry" steam, so the boiler was distilling the water as used. Smaller steam machines and some industrial steam requires pre-distilled water to keep the moving parts clean of mineral scale.
apollo_gnomon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-03-2011, 01:23 AM   #7
pi3141
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,011
Default

Cheers!

It is an interesting subject - I've been fascinated with this stuff for a long time.

Quote:
Originally Posted by apollo_gnomon View Post
The expansion of the combustion gasses slows down as expansion progresses, but the pistons can't be allowed to slow down during power stroke -- that would put drag load on the rest of the engine. That's why drag racers have actual flames shooting out the pipes

. . . they're taking the fastest expansion only and throwing away the rest. Like skimming the topmost cream off of milk and throwing away half the cream and all the milk.

If I understand this correctly - they open the exhaust valve before the power stroke has finished completely - thus releasing some of the still combusting fuel?

Quote:
Originally Posted by apollo_gnomon View Post
Two engineering challenges I see to injecting water or steam into gasoline or alcohol otto-cycle engines:
1, Engines have iron rings and combustion cyclinder sleeves which could rust and pit if residual moisture is left in the cylinder between uses.
Agreed.

I have a Lotus with an all alluminum engine, including Ali pistons, but the weak point would be the Piston Rings and Liners as you mentioned. Later Lotus engines had Nicasil liners and I know ceramic liners/coatings are available.

Quote:
Originally Posted by apollo_gnomon View Post
2, Water for steam applications needs to be super clean, distilled, pure water. Any minerals build up as scale. Steam trains using random water had a mud box under the boiler where mineral sludge would accumulate. The steam used for power had to be "dry" steam, so the boiler was distilling the water as used. Smaller steam machines and some industrial steam requires pre-distilled water to keep the moving parts clean of mineral scale.
This I did not think about, but then I read it somewhere that distilled was best but could not think why. Thanks for explaining.

There are kits available for injecting Water/Methanol mix.

Such as here for instance.

Quote:
Aquastealth
link - http://www.aquastealth.com/
But your right that it seems mainly for increasing power on Supercharged engines.

Why not take the gain and lean off the fuel to improve MPG instead?

I realise you would have to ensure you always had water onboard or you would damage the engine - running it lean.

But on my old Lotus getting 20mpg, for instance, if installing a water injector and leaning out the mixture would give me 30mpg or more, then it would be worth it.

If you put the kit on a modern car with ECU would it automatically adjust the fuel mix?

I'm beginning to understand that this has a lot to do with Compression ratio's and that water injection makes the 97 octane fuel run like 116 octane fuel (found quote on the web) so to take proper advantage of this you would need to increase the CR of the car.
pi3141 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-03-2011, 01:42 AM   #8
apollo_gnomon
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 6,396
Default

Not sure how modern ECU engines would cope with the steam. Probably fine, if you could program the fuel and H2O injectors -- mostly the ECU is monitoring the exhaust stream for unburned fuel or air. At that point you're getting into burning custom ecu ROMs.

The "water for fuel" guys have to tweak the sensors to keep the fuel/air ratio super lean - and that's mostly where they're getting their mileage "improvements." Squirting tiny random amounts of hydrogen or hydrogen and oxygen is going to create very little power but will displace some amount of air in the intake mixture.
apollo_gnomon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-03-2011, 01:51 AM   #9
dreamweaver
Senior Member
 
dreamweaver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 10,875
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by apollo_gnomon View Post
Not sure how modern ECU engines would cope with the steam. Probably fine, if you could program the fuel and H2O injectors -- mostly the ECU is monitoring the exhaust stream for unburned fuel or air. At that point you're getting into burning custom ecu ROMs.
I've seen water injection kits advertised in car modding magazines, so presumably they work OK but I don't personally know anyone who's installed one.
__________________
Congratulations, you found the secret message. Shhh!
dreamweaver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-03-2011, 03:09 AM   #10
pi3141
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,011
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by apollo_gnomon View Post
The "water for fuel" guys have to tweak the sensors to keep the fuel/air ratio super lean - and that's mostly where they're getting their mileage "improvements." Squirting tiny random amounts of hydrogen or hydrogen and oxygen is going to create very little power but will displace some amount of air in the intake mixture.
Thanks.

I was surprised at this but recently when reading up on it found that it is the charge cooling effect from the water converting to steam that causes the increase in power hence little point in injecting steam but useful to inject water instead.
pi3141 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-03-2011, 03:10 AM   #11
pi3141
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,011
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamweaver View Post
I've seen water injection kits advertised in car modding magazines, so presumably they work OK but I don't personally know anyone who's installed one.
Yes I've seen the kits - so presumably engine rusting out is not a problem?
pi3141 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-03-2011, 03:30 AM   #12
dreamweaver
Senior Member
 
dreamweaver's Avatar
 
Join Date: Dec 2008
Posts: 10,875
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pi3141 View Post
Yes I've seen the kits - so presumably engine rusting out is not a problem?
Plenty of threads on motoring forums about water injection being used without too many problems, e.g. http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/t...ater+Injection

Probably worth a good browse of these forums to see the real-world pros and cons of it.
__________________
Congratulations, you found the secret message. Shhh!
dreamweaver is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-03-2011, 03:47 AM   #13
pi3141
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,011
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by dreamweaver View Post
Plenty of threads on motoring forums about water injection being used without too many problems, e.g. http://www.pistonheads.com/gassing/t...ater+Injection

Probably worth a good browse of these forums to see the real-world pros and cons of it.
Good point, I haven't checked out the motoring forums about this.

Did find another discussion about it on a Mazda forum but that just degenerated into a 'I know more than you' slagging match!

Edit: Just found the Aquamist forum off that link you gave and on that Pistonheads link they mention the 'slagging off' matches on one of the Mazda forums!

Last edited by pi3141; 13-03-2011 at 03:54 AM.
pi3141 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-03-2011, 05:06 AM   #14
apollo_gnomon
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 6,396
Default

http://www.aemelectronics.com/?gclid...FcEv2godGCDTDA

This link is one of the ads on the bottom of my screen in this thread. Not spamming, just presenting a source of information relevant to this thread.
apollo_gnomon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 13-03-2011, 10:45 PM   #15
pi3141
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,011
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by apollo_gnomon View Post
http://www.aemelectronics.com/?gclid...FcEv2godGCDTDA

This link is one of the ads on the bottom of my screen in this thread. Not spamming, just presenting a source of information relevant to this thread.
Cheers Apollo.

I had a look and added it to favoutrites.

Can I ask you, I was wondering tonight about the point of rusting out engines.

The kits we see advertised seem to suggest that there is no issue with rust, thats not a fact I know of, just no one mentions it as being a problem, could it be that by feeding the water in to increase power that the water is - I don't how to put this - consumed or swallowed up by the fuel mixture, as there is sufficient fuel to burn it off.

But if I leaned off the fuel mix to increase MPG rather than increase power then the weakened mixture might mean that some residue water could be left?
pi3141 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 14-03-2011, 11:51 PM   #16
apollo_gnomon
Banned
 
Join Date: May 2010
Posts: 6,396
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by pi3141 View Post
Cheers Apollo.

I had a look and added it to favoutrites.

Can I ask you, I was wondering tonight about the point of rusting out engines.

The kits we see advertised seem to suggest that there is no issue with rust, thats not a fact I know of, just no one mentions it as being a problem, could it be that by feeding the water in to increase power that the water is - I don't how to put this - consumed or swallowed up by the fuel mixture, as there is sufficient fuel to burn it off.

But if I leaned off the fuel mix to increase MPG rather than increase power then the weakened mixture might mean that some residue water could be left?
I've looked into the water injection and it's an on-demand power booster, like nitrous or supercharging, rather than constant duty. This means that the engine would have some amount of running time after an injection to dry out the cylinder.

For an efficiency boost application that means you would want to turn the injection off a few blocks from home. The boost session itself would lower fuel demand during, say, commuting with lane changes and on ramps. This is similar to the Geo Metro and Subaru Justy which used turbocharged 3 cylinder engines, in that the intrinsically low output motor is boosted to create higher output.

Interesting notion.

{eta**
Another way to implement the system would be to have the injection activate only on wide-open-throttle.

Last edited by apollo_gnomon; 14-03-2011 at 11:52 PM. Reason: to add
apollo_gnomon is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-03-2011, 12:36 AM   #17
pi3141
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,011
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by apollo_gnomon View Post
Another way to implement the system would be to have the injection activate only on wide-open-throttle.
Yes - that would make sense with carburettor cars as the flow would be easier to match to fuel intake.

So maybe its no MPG booster without re-engineering the engine for rust control. Ali pistons, ceramic liners and I don't know what for piston rings.


Quote:
Originally Posted by apollo_gnomon View Post
I've looked into the water injection and it's an on-demand power booster, like nitrous or supercharging, rather than constant duty. This means that the engine would have some amount of running time after an injection to dry out the cylinder.
That makes sense too. It also appears that these kits are aimed at forced induction, so using it as a boost and given the larger volume of air and fuel through the engine then that would effectively drown out the water or residual water. Combining that with periods of non use to dry the cylinder makes sense that it would not rust the engine. Just don't use it and then switch engine off imeadiately afterwards too often, I guess.
pi3141 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 15-03-2011, 12:40 AM   #18
pi3141
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,011
Default

I also found this one the other day -

Quote:
Curbside Classic: Incredible Steam-Injected, 12 Second 1/4 Mile, 75 MPG 1978 Mercury Bobcat

By Paul Niedermeyer on December 17, 2009

My gig is to wander the streets of Eugene and hopefully stumble onto something worthy of your attention. Sometimes, my wildest expectations are exceeded, and then exceeded again. Walking down Willamette Street, I see the distinctive rear hatch of what I take to be a Pinto. Nice enough. But no, this is a Mercury Bobcat; quite a find in this day and age. I start snapping away. And then the owner shows up and tops it all: he’s converted this Bobcat to a steam injection system of his own invention, and it’s going to pull twelves in the quarter mile and get 75 mpg. Incredible!

Link - http://www.thetruthaboutcars.com/200...ercury-bobcat/
It incorporates an interesting engineering solution. (the guy did his homework)

Quote:
You might be wondering just what drove him to using a Mercury Bobcat for his little steamy wonder (I was), other than a quirk of personality. There’s a reason. Well, it didn’t exactly have to be a Bobcat, just any of the millions of the Ford vehicles that used the 2.3 OHC Pinto-derived engine, which still powered Rangers until quite recently. The later versions of that engine had a twin-plug setup, and held the key to fitting the steam injectors,
So I'm still wondering how he's going to control rust or if it is actually going to be a problem at all.
I'm sure we both know there is always some water in the engine due to the combustion process anyway, so maybe its just excessive water that creates a problem.


Damn I still wanna try this out on my Lotus!

Its only an old engine anyway and its knocking a bit and the rear crank oil seal is leaking and and ..... (I'll try and think of more reasons for an excuse to rebuild then it won't matter)

Last edited by pi3141; 15-03-2011 at 12:48 AM.
pi3141 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 05-04-2011, 08:00 PM   #19
pi3141
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,011
Default

So having read up on this a bit further it seems to me that if you biased the Oxygen sensor on a modern car with ECU then you could use the water injection to save about 20% fuel.

O2 sensors, when hot, output a 1 volt signal to indicate to the ECU the engine is rich and similarly, the sensor will put out a voltage less than 0.5 volts when the engine is running lean due to its chemical reaction with air in the exhaust.

So, if you apply a 0.5 volt signal to the O2 output wire the ECU will read this as the engine being rich and adjust the pulse width of the injectors accordingly to lower fuel flow. It seems the O2 sensor will only adjust the fuel by up to 20%.

Hence, if you bias the O2 signal with 0.5v, it will still allow the O2 output to rise and fall with engine use but always be read by the ECU as running rich which should then adjust down the fuel consumption. You would then fix your water injection flow at such a rate to maintain correct combustion from the engine without 'dampening' down the burn, use Colourtune to do this.

Using the above method, one could wire the water injector pump power circuit to a switch which also activates the 0.5v O2 sensor bias signal on and off. Then, when you switch the system off the car would return to normal operation. (for MOT's and inspections and if you run out of water in the tank etc)

The disadvantage of this method is that you will only achieve a maximum 20% fuel saving - or rather the maximum amount the O2 sensor can vary the fuel consumption. But the car would stay as standard except when the system is switched on. This is also a benefit as you could run the car without water switched on to 'dry' out the engine and prevent rusting - should it need it.

Alternatively you can buy programable ECU's or piggy back ECU's that allow further tweaking and adjustment of the fuel flow.

I remember early cars had user programmable ECU's - when you had disconnected the battery from the ECU you could re-set it by switching the ignition key on and off and depressing the accelerator pedal, forcing the ECU in to a self learn mode - this would allow the car to run within certain limits until it could be programmed correctly by a garage. I guess you could do this when the water injection system is wired up and switched on and then the ECU would learn the optimum fuel rate with the water taken into account. That way the car would function a normal but with a reduced fuel flow in relation to the 'sensed' parameters with the water on. But this method would mean you would have to ensure your water was always full or you would be running lean and engine damage would reult. Also, when taking the car to the MOT inspection you would need to reset and re-programme the ECU to operate correctly or else the car would fail on emmissions.


I've got a simple, single point LPG system on one of my cars, LPG runs hotter than petrol so water injection would help the engine last longer by cooling it down. The LPG flow is set up by the small LPG ECU mounted in the car, with the right software it shouldn't be too difficult to adjust this directly as it simply fumigates the gas in through the air filter, probably at a fairly constant flow. I presume, when this unit is switched on, it too 'piggybacks' the cars ECU and prompts the ECU to be inactive to stop petrol flow. I don't know much about how they work but it doesn't look to hard to find out and it seems likely that manipulating the LPG ECU to a lower fuel rate when water injection is applied to increase MPG and cool the cylinders should be an easier system to set up and will help the engine due to cooler running. The car's ECU 'headache' is already taken care of when the LPG ECU is switched on - no bias signals required.


Presumably there is a risk of rusting out parts of the engine - piston rings etc. I would only try any of this on a car that you are happy to pay to be rebuilt should it be neccessary, with non rusting components or on an engine you can rebuild yourself. Stainless steel exhaust is probably a must, alloy exhaust manifold would be best - change it for a race one if the original rusts out. Apart from that its going to be internals, rings, valve seats etc.

Any mechanics on the forum able to comment on this thread?
pi3141 is offline   Reply With Quote
Old 10-04-2011, 08:36 PM   #20
pi3141
Senior Member
 
Join Date: Jul 2009
Posts: 3,011
Default

Found Maf / Map Enhancer on Ebay for £15 that lets you lean out your fuel by modifying signals to the ECU.




There is also a 'DEMSE' made by a company called Kempco-HHO in the states that does the same sort of thing. Can't post images though they won't allow me to save them off ebay.

I think these units would do the trick for ECU cars.
pi3141 is offline   Reply With Quote
Reply

Bookmarks

Thread Tools

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is On

Forum Jump


All times are GMT +1. The time now is 11:37 PM.