Relinquishing The"I"

[sylph]

Interesting.

Does anyone else get a panic attack when they ask themselves
'who am I ? '
It's happened to me since I was a child, sometimes I get it when I'm driving and I have to think of something else as it completely takes me over so much that I can't breathe, I forget to breathe as whenever I think 'who am I' it's as if the answer comes to me and I remember but in order to remember my body stops functioning.
maybe this is because who I am is not of the physical plane, I am a soul like everyone else.

I remember googling this once and finding it is a common thing.

[hadaka_jimmy]

Originally Posted by sylph

I am a soul like everyone else.

I remember googling this once and finding it is a common thing.

Maybe you panic because you realise that there is no 'me' or 'I'.

[hadaka_jimmy]

Originally Posted by passerbye999

Hi hadaka jimmy glad you joined the thread. would you please explain for the benifit of others your take on the doctrine of no self so they may understand where you are coming from? all sides of the arguement are welcome and appreciated.

Peace

The doctrine of no-self isn't annihilation. It's perhaps the annihilation of the ego-self. If someone is too attached to the notion of 'I' or 'me' that will lead to fear and suffering and rebirth.

Rebirth is different to reincarnation. Rebirth is causing another being to be formed that is caused because of your attachment to the idea of an eternal 'self' or soul.

Imagine the sea crashing into some rocks. There's millions of water droplets experiencing a separate existence for a brief moment in time. We know the droplet isn't separate from the sea, but the illusion to the droplet is that is somehow separate and different.

The droplet will return back to the sea once it's brief experience of individuality is over. So the droplet was never separate, it wasn't ever individual in reality, it was a brief experience of illusion.

The idea we're individuals is the same as the droplets when really we don't exist as separate entities. This is poor analogy the Buddha's doctrine of nothingness or emptiness of all phenomena.

[passerbye999]

Originally Posted by hadaka_jimmy

Imagine the sea crashing into some rocks. There's millions of water droplets experiencing a separate existence for a brief moment in time. We know the droplet isn't separate from the sea, but the illusion to the droplet is that is somehow separate and different.

The droplet will return back to the sea once it's brief experience of individuality is over. So the droplet was never separate, it wasn't ever individual in reality, it was a brief experience of illusion.

nice analogy. it's funny isn't it that everything comes back to water what we as humans are mainly composed of in the first place.

Peace

[passerbye999]

Originally Posted by sylph

Interesting.

Does anyone else get a panic attack when they ask themselves
'who am I ? '
It's happened to me since I was a child, sometimes I get it when I'm driving and I have to think of something else as it completely takes me over so much that I can't breathe, I forget to breathe as whenever I think 'who am I' it's as if the answer comes to me and I remember but in order to remember my body stops functioning.
maybe this is because who I am is not of the physical plane, I am a soul like everyone else.

I remember googling this once and finding it is a common thing.

is it sometimes like a thought that once you start to speak it is lost on the tip of your tongue, an image so clear that when when it is attemped to be recalled vanishes into mist? This can cause one to become anxious for what was this beginning of an idea or understanding that was starting to burst forth? then upon remembering there is trauma for the answer is beyond comprehension.

who knows just a thought! this question though is the whole method to discovering your original nature and the ancients pursued it mercilessly, when you find the answer you will know it though and will laugh at it's simplicity. Satori has a tendency to make one laugh or cry out loud eureka.

Peace

[sylph]

Originally Posted by passerbye999

is it sometimes like a thought that once you start to speak it is lost on the tip of your tongue, an image so clear that when when it is attemped to be recalled vanishes into mist? This can cause one to become anxious for what was this beginning of an idea or understanding that was starting to burst forth? then upon remembering there is trauma for the answer is beyond comprehension.

who knows just a thought! this question though is the whole method to discovering your original nature and the ancients pursued it mercilessly, when you find the answer you will know it though and will laugh at it's simplicity. Satori has a tendency to make one laugh or cry out loud eureka.

Peace

Hmmm so maybe that's why people smile before they die ?

[opas23]

Originally Posted by sylph

Does anyone else get a panic attack when they ask themselves
'who am I ? 'I remember googling this once and finding it is a common thing.

Hello sylph,

This seemed to work for a few clients or variations of the same theme did:~

Now, this may seem like a total 180 degree turn from helping you, but in life, sometimes a nugget of pure gold can be found where 'we' never dare look.

So next time it happens, recognise it and invite it in!

Some like to say 'welcome' or 'I accept you in' etc.

Some people get creative and say, "Where've you been, I was wondering where you'd gone, nice to see/feel you again my old friend" etc.

Massive rushes of energy will stay exactly as massive rushes of energy but the frame or flavour you ad to it can be very alchemically in~joyable.

Yes, many are experiencing the rush of energy which is named 'panic' but take the name away and all they are left with is energy in a form.

What you then appear to do with it is entirely up to the apparent interaction between you and your loving potential knocking on the door.

I've had many a laugh with people who after letting/allowing/inviting this to happen, who have realised that sometimes our most amazing gifts come wrapped up in appearing horrid, nasty, scary moments of being or oneness answering the call or question you apparently and originally asked.

Invite it in for tea and cakes and before you know it there wont be any separation and inherent fear of yourself being completely full...of tea and cakes! lol

No one experience their awakening exactly as they THOUGHT it would come knocking!

What a wonderful gift awaits you.

You did ask...

[sylph]

Originally Posted by opas23

Hello sylph,

This seemed to work for a few clients or variations of the same theme did:~

Now, this may seem like a total 180 degree turn from helping you, but in life, sometimes a nugget of pure gold can be found where 'we' never dare look.

So next time it happens, recognise it and invite it in!

Some like to say 'welcome' or 'I accept you in' etc.

Some people get creative and say, "Where've you been, I was wondering where you'd gone, nice to see/feel you again my old friend" etc.

Massive rushes of energy will stay exactly as massive rushes of energy but the frame or flavour you ad to it can be very alchemically in~joyable.

Yes, many are experiencing the rush of energy which is named 'panic' but take the name away and all they are left with is energy in a form.

What you then appear to do with it is entirely up to the apparent interaction between you and your loving potential knocking on the door.

I've had many a laugh with people who after letting/allowing/inviting this to happen, who have realised that sometimes our most amazing gifts come wrapped up in appearing horrid, nasty, scary moments of being or oneness answering the call or question you apparently and originally asked.

Invite it in for tea and cakes and before you know it there wont be any separation and inherent fear of yourself being completely full...of tea and cakes! lol

No one experience their awakening exactly as they THOUGHT it would come knocking!

What a wonderful gift awaits you.

You did ask...

Thanks for the advice - I'll try this next time the thought comes into my head

[passerbye999]

Originally Posted by sylph

Hmmm so maybe that's why people smile before they die ?

never thought about that could be.

[somethinganonymous]

Originally Posted by passerbye999

I have had this discussion on a few different threads and am curious to other peoples thoughts on the subject of " I am" vs. " I am not" describing personal enlightenment. What do you feel is the truth based on your personal experiences? Can the self be truly removed or is it simply a metaphor? Do we want to remove the self which is who we are and what defines us an individual human being belonging to the collective of humanity? If we do want to remove the self is it death we are truly striving for or life?

I believe "I am" is the enlightened practice of living life where " I am not" is the enlightened practice of living death and that it is better to live life for death will come in it's own time. My self I explored and practiced both I was " I am not" now " I am".

I am interested to hear what others have to say.

Peace

Start using the royal 'we' instead. Problem solved

[dodie]

Originally Posted by opas23

Hello sylph,

This seemed to work for a few clients or variations of the same theme did:~

Now, this may seem like a total 180 degree turn from helping you, but in life, sometimes a nugget of pure gold can be found where 'we' never dare look.

So next time it happens, recognise it and invite it in!

Some like to say 'welcome' or 'I accept you in' etc.

Some people get creative and say, "Where've you been, I was wondering where you'd gone, nice to see/feel you again my old friend" etc.

Massive rushes of energy will stay exactly as massive rushes of energy but the frame or flavour you ad to it can be very alchemically in~joyable.

Yes, many are experiencing the rush of energy which is named 'panic' but take the name away and all they are left with is energy in a form.

What you then appear to do with it is entirely up to the apparent interaction between you and your loving potential knocking on the door.

I've had many a laugh with people who after letting/allowing/inviting this to happen, who have realised that sometimes our most amazing gifts come wrapped up in appearing horrid, nasty, scary moments of being or oneness answering the call or question you apparently and originally asked.

Invite it in for tea and cakes and before you know it there wont be any separation and inherent fear of yourself being completely full...of tea and cakes! lol

No one experience their awakening exactly as they THOUGHT it would come knocking!

What a wonderful gift awaits you.

You did ask...

Spot on mate.

As you open the door to your junk room[unconscious mind],and welcome back home in to the light of your mind,all the children [ego/thought/seperation] i/we made,and in our revulsion of this so called deformed child we made,we could not face it,and hid it in the cellar under the stairs,then building a brick wall over the entrance,so we could hide it from our awareness,and then use time to help us forget,that we were responsible,for making this child.Then through the amnesia,when the child tried to come back home,[guilt/fear,and there offsprings],we could disassociate/reject them,revulsed by how they made us feel[projection],then when our own actions mirrored back on us,now we had a big bad world to blame,never our fault,it was god/illumanati/jews/muslims/christians/mum/dad/ad infinitum.

But as you said,when you get these emotions,and welcome them back,you are amazed at their forgiveness,and you find you have discovered a treasure trove,and not the nightmare you expected.And as more and more come home,you start to feel that peace and bliss,within/without,and as you illusory travel through that rainbow,you realise they were trying to guide you to that pot of gold at the end of the rainbow,and as awareness and laughter increase,you realise,you already have that pot of gold,and there was never a time you did'nt,and you celebrate who YOU are,and while you are here,waiting for this spinning wheel,for the beginning to meet the end[veil to lift]of itself,you in unity with your thought[child],you will no longer be experiencing a nightmare,YOU will be experiencing a happy dream,and this world of seperation,when unified[mind and thought brought together,and not kept apart],will end in laughter[projection will switch off],and we will experience ourselves as we truly are ONE.

love is all

[opas23]

Hey dodie,

Exactly!

There certainly is the potential to turn base metals into gold.

And there is plenty of fear/separation being lovingly promoted by nature in the guise of the few, to allow for the coming home of the apparent many.

Then...it'll go the other way...and back and forth over centuries simply because, well, it can.

Can't you!

[passerbye999]

Originally Posted by dodie

Spot on mate.


But as you said,when you get these emotions,and welcome them back,you are amazed at their forgiveness,and you find you have discovered a treasure trove,and not the nightmare you expected.And as more and more come home,you start to feel that peace and bliss,within/without,and as you illusory travel through that rainbow,you realise they were trying to guide you to that pot of gold at the end of the rainbow,and as awareness and laughter increase,you realise,you already have that pot of gold,and there was never a time you did'nt,and you celebrate who YOU are,and while you are here,waiting for this spinning wheel,for the beginning to meet the end[veil to lift]of itself,you in unity with your thought[child],you will no longer be experiencing a nightmare,YOU will be experiencing a happy dream,and this world of seperation,when unified[mind and thought brought together,and not kept apart],will end in laughter[projection will switch off],and we will experience ourselves as we truly are ONE.

love is all

Very well said, quite poetic. I am one and I love therefore I am.

[somethinganonymous]

Originally Posted by passerbye999

I have had this discussion on a few different threads and am curious to other peoples thoughts on the subject of " I am" vs. " I am not" describing personal enlightenment. What do you feel is the truth based on your personal experiences? Can the self be truly removed or is it simply a metaphor? Do we want to remove the self which is who we are and what defines us an individual human being belonging to the collective of humanity? If we do want to remove the self is it death we are truly striving for or life?

I believe "I am" is the enlightened practice of living life where " I am not" is the enlightened practice of living death and that it is better to live life for death will come in it's own time. My self I explored and practiced both I was " I am not" now " I am".

I am interested to hear what others have to say.

Peace

You ought to consider using the royal 'we' it will lead to a whole new level of enlightenment... good luck

[alisa2]

Originally Posted by passerbye999

I have had this discussion on a few different threads and am curious to other peoples thoughts on the subject of " I am" vs. " I am not" describing personal enlightenment. What do you feel is the truth based on your personal experiences? Can the self be truly removed or is it simply a metaphor? Do we want to remove the self which is who we are and what defines us an individual human being belonging to the collective of humanity? If we do want to remove the self is it death we are truly striving for or life?

I believe "I am" is the enlightened practice of living life where " I am not" is the enlightened practice of living death and that it is better to live life for death will come in it's own time. My self I explored and practiced both I was " I am not" now " I am".

I am interested to hear what others have to say.

Peace

Based on my own personal experiences of "The Work":


Based on "The Work" of P.D. Ouspensky and George Gurijeff, the "I am not"
consists of (1) Identification (2) False Personality (3) Lying (4) Negative Emotions, and (5) Internal considerations. After you've cleared out, and stopped entertaining each of the aforementioned, the "I am" appears. The "I am" is who you ARE. The "I am not" is who you are NOT.

There's a lot more to it than that, but that's the gist of it.

Here's quote from Ouspensky's The Fourth Way

'I' is only presumed; we do not know what 'I' is. But 'Ouspensky' I know and I can study him in all his manifestations. So I must begin with 'Ouspensky;'. 'I' is elusive and very small; it exists as a potentiality; if it does not grow, false personality will continue to control everything. Many people make the mistake of thinking that they know which is which. They say 'this is I', when in reality it is false personality.

[passerbye999]

I left this thread for a while for I found I had nothing else to say at the time. I have come back though for I have some new thoughts or maybe even self revelations on the subject.

First I would like to summarize the philosophical concepts I have been pondering and was pondering when I started this thread.

1) eyeh asher eyeh - I am that I am - YHWH- I am
2)Cogito ergo sum- I think therefore I am - Decartes
3)Sum ergo cogito- I am therefore I think - Unknown Philosopher
4)Kensho- Attaining insight into ones original nature- Zen
5)Wu wei- No mind- Wei wu wei - Mind of no mind-Zen
6)Satori - Awakening- Zen
7)Relinquishing the "I" -I am not-Zen
8)Nirvhana-Heaven-Most Faiths
* Summary "I am, I am not"*


Before I say anything of my thoughts on these great concepts I want to share some rare Zen koans that summarize the Zen philosophy because even though I am a Messsianic Jew my personal philosophy is Ch'an or Zen.

The Five Ranks Of The apparent And The Real:
The Orally Transmitted Secret Teachings Of The Monk Who Lived On Mount To

Tozan Ryokai's Verses On The Five Ranks:

1)The Apparent Within The Real:
In the third watch of the night
Before the moon appears,
No wonder when we meet
There is no recognition!
Still cherished in my heart
Is the beauty of earlier days.

2)The Real Within The Apparent:
A sleepy eyed grandam
Encounters herself in an old mirror.
Clearly she sees a face
But it doesn't resemble hers at all.
Too bad, with a muddled head,
She tries to recognize her reflection!

3)The Coming From Within The Real:
Within nothingness there is a path
Leading away from the dusts of the world.
Even if you observe the taboo
On the present emporer's name,
You will surpass that eloquent one of yore
Who silenced every tongue.

4)The Arrival At Mutual Integration:
When two blades cross points,
There is no need to withdraw.
The master swordsman
Is like a lotus blooming in the fire.
Such a man has in and of himself
A heaven soaring spirit.

5)Unity Attained:
Who dares to equal him
Who falls into neither being nor non-being!
All men want to leave
The current of ordinary life,
But he, after all, comes back
To sit among the coals and ashes.

The Master's verse comment says:
How many times has Tokuun, the idle old gimlet,
Not come down from the Marvelous Peak!
He hires foolish wise men to bring snow,
And he and they together fill up the well.

"When the eight consciousnesses are inverted, the Four Wisdoms are bound together, the Three Bodies are perfected?" Therefore:

Your own nature is provided
With the Three Bodies;
When its brightness is manifested,
The Four wisdoms are attained.

"What are the Four Wisdoms they are the Great Perfect Mirror Wisdom, the Universal Nature Wisdom, the Marvelous Observing Wisdom and the Perfecting-of-Action Wisdom."


I quote this from an old book I possess on the "Zen Koan" by Isshu Miura published in 1965. It is a complete anthology of Koan practice. The Public Records of the Enlightened.

Eastern enlightenment and western enlightenment seem at first to be very different even opposed to each other but they are not. Within I am there is I am not, Within I am not there is I am. What is our real nature? Only we can discover the answer to this question within ourselves. When we discover this great answer this is Satori. When we investigate this great question this is Satori. Awakenings come and go there are lesser ones and greater ones, but enlightenment is forever. I am sentient , I think , I am aware, I am enlightened.

I am that I am. Is seeing into ones original nature. Think about it. Even if there is no "I" I am. I glimpse this through my mind of no-mind. If not my mind whose mind is it? My mind is empty and aware so I am enlightened at this moment. If not this moment what moment? If I am not in this moment who is and when will I be in the moment?

What mind? What moment? What am I? Who am I? These are the questions we ask ourselves. Why? What or who desires the answer to these questions? I myself do not desire the answers to these questions anymore, I ask them so the reader may think about the questions and see the answer. I am awareness that is who I am. I am sentient thoughtful and thoughtless awareness. I am yet I am not, I am not yet I am. I am that I am. Will this let me reach Nirvhana or Heaven? I am already there yet I am not there.

Only when I empty my mind and observe I am aware that there is no Heaven or Hell that this is Heaven and Hell. It all depends on the moment I find myself observing. Love and Hate and all the various emotions are my reflections of my observations of my moments. Yes my moments though I share them with the universe and eternity they are mine alone. Just as I am born and will die alone, I live alone. Others may visit me and share in the moments with me but I observe them alone in my own way. The others do the same. We will each experience the moments in our own way, observing them differently according to our perception of them.

We are one and we are many. For there to be an I there must be a We. Individual yet communal. One has many parts. Is one part any greater or lesser than another? Each part is a piece of the whole, without one piece there wouldn't be a whole. It would be a broken wheel. If there is no "I" there is no we, there is no one and nothing is whole. What a mixture of Christian and Budhist thought!

So what is Enlightenment? Simply being mindfuly aware of each moment. How can we not be even when we are mindless? For we are awareness. Mindful or mindless we are always aware, awake or asleep continually aware. So why search for what is already there? Because Teachers who do not know and understand confuse people and make what is not a mystery a mystery and we love mysteries. Even the Teachers of old made it a mystery so we would want to slove it. Somewhere though the solving of the mystery became more important than the awareness of the mystery itself. When we are aware of the mystery the mystery reveals it is no mystery at all.

Now I have gone and done it professing to understand what cannot be understood. What sort of man am I? Exlaiming I am enlightened so I mustn't be enlightened. What vanity, what pride! And Teaching that the reader and everyone else is enlightened too they simply have to be aware that they are!
Another self professed Guru who claims he dislikes Gurus! That's okay though because sometimes I dislike myself. Does that make me less enlightened? Does that make me a false Teacher? I have been teaching this for a quarter of a century, longer than one third of the people on this planet have lived. These words come from experience and of practicing what is being preached.

I do not want recognition for these are my words no one elses, I simply hope it will help one person so they give up the chase and enjoy the moment they are in right now. To help them stop hoping and searching for some other moment as they miss all the magical moments that pass by. I realized that I needed to write this and post it. For myself as well. The thoughts needed to be released and put into words. In a precise fashion because I will never write a book or make DVD's.

What makes me laugh though is that most of the members will not even read this, passing it by because passerbye wrote it. Missing the pearl I have polished for them. Others will stop reading after starting because they will think I am just a nut job who doesn't know what he is talking about. I can send people flying from a gentle touch with no distance or effort. My mind is always empty unless I desire to fill it. Like a gardener I plant my garden and tend to the weeds. Using only the best seeds and fertilizer. I encourage those that do read this and make it through to do the same.

I beleive in God for God has proven His/Her presense to me. God is within me and always encourages me to write this kind of drivel. To keep trying to get my message across. I believe once a person has awareness of themselves and cultivated their mind then they are ready to be aware of God and cultivate their spirit. I follow the Tao effortlessly. I Embrace the Earth and Exalt the Heavens. I cultivate my mind and my spirit. No other energies remain to play with. Like a child I want to play and share with others my toys. I giggled through the whole writing of this little epistle. Apparently I do make myself laugh another sign of craziness.

For those who enjoy this I am glad. For those who don't to bad. If you think I am crazy no worries I have been diagnosed as such so it won't hurt my feelings what so ever. I can do what I say though or I wouldn't have wrote it down. I feel good finishing this post like a weight has been lifted. My yoke has been removed. I realize it was never shackled on it just was there weighing me down. They say truth will set you free, well I am free. Never was I in bondage exept for the shackles I placed on myself. They are off now so I am finished. I end with a poem a special Koan for me. It came to me one night in a dream as an answer to a question I emailed to a great zen master.

My koan was"My Father is my eyes and my Mother is my mouth, my hands and ears are mine alone. If all things come together miracles happen if only on thing is missing nothing happens."

What actually came as an answer was " I can see the lightening flashing in your eyes, hear the thunder roaring in your heart. I wish it would rain."

I never received an email back but the other koan woke me right up from my sleep and I wrote it down immediately. It is too good of a koan for me to come up with myself.

What they mean is my koan re-written" God gives me sight , the holy spirit gives me speach, my hearing and actions are mine alone. When all these things come together in one moment miracles happen, if even on part is not there nothing happens."

The answer" The holy spirit is in you and you want to teach, go for it!"

Anyway that is enough for now.

Peace

[passerbye999]

Originally Posted by alisa2

Based on my own personal experiences of "The Work":


Based on "The Work" of P.D. Ouspensky and George Gurijeff, the "I am not"
consists of (1) Identification (2) False Personality (3) Lying (4) Negative Emotions, and (5) Internal considerations. After you've cleared out, and stopped entertaining each of the aforementioned, the "I am" appears. The "I am" is who you ARE. The "I am not" is who you are NOT.

There's a lot more to it than that, but that's the gist of it.

Here's quote from Ouspensky's The Fourth Way

'I' is only presumed; we do not know what 'I' is. But 'Ouspensky' I know and I can study him in all his manifestations. So I must begin with 'Ouspensky;'. 'I' is elusive and very small; it exists as a potentiality; if it does not grow, false personality will continue to control everything. Many people make the mistake of thinking that they know which is which. They say 'this is I', when in reality it is false personality.

Very cool that you refenced Gurdjieff and Ouspensky. I watched a series on their lives and watched the movie made about Gurdjieff as well I read Gurdjieff's books. The movies really peaked my interest in him. Alot of my own personal thoughts and observations were influenced by him. I even went so far as to use his fourth way as a model so to speak of my "System of Nine". His symbol is a complex nongon. I believe he was a prophet. An awesome thinker who studied the personalities of people intensly. Some of Ouspensky's stuff I totally disagree with though he wasn't the best student of his master.

I agree that sometimes "I" can be a false personality but if it is viewed for what it is simply awareness. Then that "I" is the real personality. For "I" is simply a categorization or a label. I agree it is not an entity in itself but it does exist. My personality doesn't necessarily define me for it is ever changing. Yet I am still me an ever changing me but me non the less. My awareness and observations prove this with each moment I percieve life.
What is the "I" I call awareness it is the sentience and awareness of my being which very much exists. I am that I am. I will be who I will be.

So I agree with what you and Ouspensky say about "I" being a potentiality that must be grown like a child that must mature and grow up. You and I know Alisa2 that skhandas are the bundles that need to be removed in order to nurture our original nature. In his own way I believe this is what Ouspensky was getting at. For our personality is formed by these positive and negative experiences. Forming something which is in essence not us. So there is where the " I am no" comes in for this formed "I" is not the real " I".
The real "I" our original real nature is awareness alone. It is not tangible it has no home so to speak it lives outside of us but inside our mind. Anyway cool post it made me think and remember again about Gurdjieff's teachings.

He was a master of the blending of eastern and western thought. Hanging with the sufi's and whirling dervishes. His music and dance sequences are pretty cool too.

Peace

[passerbye999]

Originally Posted by somethinganonymous

You ought to consider using the royal 'we' it will lead to a whole new level of enlightenment... good luck

Thanks I need all of the luck I can get in this life. The royal "we" is communal. We are distinct parts I believe of "We". I am a part of we yet I am an individual as well. You are correct though in saying "we" will lead to a whole new level of enlightenment. I do believe there are levels. A personal and communal level. To me this is where God comes in especially the concept of the Holy spirit or The Taoist Tao or the Collective Consciousness. The same thing i believe just different takes on it. I randomly depending on the conversation will invoke all three at different times depending on the context.
Like Chuang tsu I am very liberal. Conservatism is not in my nature or personality if you will. I could never be a Confusianist like Lao Tsu. I find to much order as tedious. as for this higher enlightenment I think personaly unless we work on us first we are a useless hub on the wheel of we. But once this is accomplished and a cultivated "I" joins the we wholly then we are at the highest level of enlightenment. So I agree.

Peace

[awarenow]

Originally Posted by passerbye999

I have had this discussion on a few different threads and am curious to other peoples thoughts on the subject of " I am" vs. " I am not" describing personal enlightenment. What do you feel is the truth based on your personal experiences? Can the self be truly removed or is it simply a metaphor? Do we want to remove the self which is who we are and what defines us an individual human being belonging to the collective of humanity? If we do want to remove the self is it death we are truly striving for or life?

I believe "I am" is the enlightened practice of living life where " I am not" is the enlightened practice of living death and that it is better to live life for death will come in it's own time. My self I explored and practiced both I was " I am not" now " I am".

I am interested to hear what others have to say.

Peace

Interesting topic
That is how I see it:

Well first of all in any spiritual teaching concerning enlightenment (awakening, realizing your natural state) words are only signposts, and mind tends to get stuck to words. Words can only point toward that which cannot be analyzed by the mind. Relinquishing the "I", do you mean relinquishing the egoic self / the false self / the story you are identifying with? If that is so and you call "relinquishing the I" that, then that I see is enlightenment.
You asked: can the self be removed. Well, your story, memories, thoughts, emotions, body of course including your mind will not "be removed" , you just will realize that that is not who you are, so you have disidentified from the false self and realized you are something more vast and immense that the mind will never understand.
You cannot destroy, send away, ignore the mind and be at peace. But observing it, seeing it as "I am not the mind" and noticing this brings a whole new depth to understand Who Am I, in its essence

Well this is my understanding and experiences of "ahhaa" moments that I have had

[hobo]

Originally Posted by passerbye999

I have had this discussion on a few different threads and am curious to other peoples thoughts on the subject of " I am" vs. " I am not" describing personal enlightenment. What do you feel is the truth based on your personal experiences? Can the self be truly removed or is it simply a metaphor? Do we want to remove the self which is who we are and what defines us an individual human being belonging to the collective of humanity? If we do want to remove the self is it death we are truly striving for or life?

I believe "I am" is the enlightened practice of living life where " I am not" is the enlightened practice of living death and that it is better to live life for death will come in it's own time. My self I explored and practiced both I was " I am not" now " I am".

I am interested to hear what others have to say.

Peace

Have you ever read anything of Nisargadatta Maharaj? If you havenīt, I suggest that you do.His work is excellent for weeding out wrong concepts and putting you on the "right track". The book " I am that" is a good starter.