Freemasons - what are they?

[psquared]

Originally Posted by stewart edwards

Kadosh I am going to push my luck with you a little hereYou do realise that by allowing such people in you enable darkness to infect dont you?

1. Internally they set a bad example, which some will follow; they will attract similar people, and in time you could have a lodge full of them, or a situation where a lodge simply cant get rid of such a person as everyone is to scared to stand up and be squashed by them. Given that in ugle you normally need a criminal conviction to get rid of a bad apple, dont underesting the darkening effects on ugle of allowing this. Also they can be the cause of people not attending, leaving, and through ignorance of what freemasonry is about divert it to a social club. One such man can cause reams of dark damage over a generation and more if his lodges culture changes because of him. In a very real way they can hinder a man progressing up the ladder.

2. Externally, well for the sort of reasons that masons normally deny as being anti rubbish - abusing lodge connections and position. The effect on a community and on individuals could be devasting.


Just some thoughts. But think about them for they do hold some keys to help you.

While this is probably true history has shown that it is virtually impossible for ANY organization to be free of men who wish to darken it or use it for evil. That will never change. All we can do is try to combat it as well as possible and make sure that we are rigorous in our examination of candidates prior to their initiation. Even then, some will slip through by deceptive means.

One thing I also know to be true is that even the darkest of darkness is weakened by even the smallest bit of light. Light will ALWAYS prevail over darkness no matter how dim the light...IF that light continues with all it's might to prevail.

[stewart edwards]

Originally Posted by psquared

Light will ALWAYS prevail over darkness no matter how dim the light...IF that light continues with all it's might to prevail.

In the long run you are totally and absolutely correct psquared. The trouble with darkness though is that it can approach you silently and sneakily and infect you without you really noticing. When that happens it can take immense will to rectify the situation.

As it stands just now many masons in ugle and amity at least dont seem to even be prepared to consider the possibility of darkness having entered the masonic system, far less recognsie it or deal with it. It is a crying shame.

Some masons will tell you in all sincerity that masonic light is no more than being admitted into the lodge, anything else stated or implied by ritual being mere mummery. Now that really is a crying shame.

[stewart edwards]

Originally Posted by grandsecretary

Too late. Terminal.

Only if the high hied yins in ugle dont have the balls to lead and reilluminate. (I know I know but it may all fall apart if we do) because

The patients have taken over the asylum. And they know it.

Reilluminating ugle is not that a diffficult thing to do, frustrating, political, hair pulling no doubt, but not that difficult. I have explained how to do it many times over the past decade. If I can do it in in my own life a few short years what excuse do ugle have given the tools they have that I lacked? Though I do accept that if you are unwilling to accept losses from people who arent interested in the core essence of freemasonry it could take three decades, another reason why it is vital that the next grand master of ugle is a Royal who has felt the light, and who knows from first hand experience how to walk from darkness into the light. Clearly I dont qualify for the job, but their must be some Royal with the necessary skills and experience to do what I do, and let the pro GM temper it down to a rate that the members can handle.

England needs UGLE to reilluminate. UGLE amity also do as if ugle reilluminates, this will flow into ugle amity, and will also enhance ugles respect in the non amity and non masonic worlds.

Its not rocket science. I have been bleating about it and showing you how to do it for years. Kadosh go and find a relative of the Queen who has the same level of skills as me in this regard and get them in the job. (No disrespect meant to HRH The Duke of Kent, who knows that I support him from a letter to him that I did get a response to (albeit from someone way down the food chain), but UGLE is at a key pivotal stage in its evolution. And while I may have given up on ugle myself, I do hope that it makes the right decisions.

[kadosh]

Let us all be quite frank here - it is easy to post messages of negativity. The point is the UGLE, GLoS and GLoI have a very large membership by comparison of other organisations. Transgressions are dealt with and members get expelled when justified. I doubt even the GLAE is perfect - even if it ever expands its membership there will always be incidents that fall below the standards expected (especially more so in the USA areas). That is human nature I'm afraid.

[grandsecretary]

We do not allow men like I described anywhere near our Grand Lodge. Our system is secure. All petitions are properly vetted and the Grand Lodge itself approves or rejects all petitions, in York.

We have control of our Grand lodge. The door is properly secured I can assure you. Even the four members of The United Grand Lodge of England who were sent to infiltrate our organisation in London in the early days of the revival were VERY quickly discovered and summarily removed from the ecclesiastical premises that we were using at the time.

[kadosh]

HOGARTH'S "NIGHT" - http://www.freemasonry.bcy.ca/biogra...th_w/night.jpg
Hogarth's best known Masonic engraving is the one entitled Night, the last of a series known as The Four Times of the Day. Considering the scarcity of original prints, it is interesting to note that these impressions, were offered for sale at the nominal price of five shillings each in 1782.

Unlike some of Hogarth's other prints, this one bears the date of issue, March 25, 1738. The date is important as it enables us to fix events depicted which would otherwise be matters of conjecture. Judging from the oak leaves in the barber's sign, and in the hats of two of the men depicted, it is believed that Hogarth had May 29th in mind, the anniversary of the restoration of Charles II to the throne of England.

The masonic researcher G. W. Speth, to whom much of the credit is due for what was accomplished during its early years by Qatuor Coronate Lodge No. 2076 of London, in describing the print, says:

"The street presented to our view is, almost without doubt, Hartshorn Lane, Charing Cross, opening to what is now Trafalgar Square, and which was known to our generation as Northumberland Street, but is now replaced by Northumberland Avenue. The only element of uncertainty arises from the position the equestrian statue of Charles I, of which one expect to more of the near side, unless either its position has been changed, or our artist has taken one of those liberties which by painters and poets are deemed allowable. In Hartshorn Lane 'rare Ben Johnson' was born, and at the 'Rummer Tavern, Prior was found reading Horace when a boy. Wapole's remarks would imply that the Rummer was not a very reputable house in his time, and if the room over the barber's shop be in any way connected with the tavern, the inference would appear to be justified. The only connection of the Rummer with the Craft, which I have been able to discover is that a Lodge, constituted 18th August, 1732, and erased in 1746, met at the 'Rummer, Charing Cross,' but removed in 1733. The signboard facing the 'Rummer' is inscribed 'Earl of Cardigan.' I cannot find that any Lodge met here previous to the date of the engraving; but from 1739-42, a Lodge which was constituted 15th April, 1728, and erased in 1743, held its meetings at the 'Earl of Cardigan's Head,' Charing Cross, and from 1742-44 its place was occupied by the 'Union French' Lodge, constituted the 17th August, 1732. On the whole, it would not appear that any Masonic memories were associated with this particular street in Hogarth's mind."

J. Nichols, in his work, Biographical Anecdotes of William Hogarth, said, "In NIGHT, the drunken Free-mason has been supposed to be Sir Thomas de Veil; but Sir John Hawkins assures me, it is not in the least like him." Other authorities, however, seem to differ. It is now generally accepted that Hogarth intended to satirize de Veil. There is no doubt that he designed the principal caricature to be a Mason. A Thomas Veal appears in the list of members of Hogarth's first Lodge, and arguing from the manners of the times, no question remains that Thomas Veal, Thomas Veil, and Sir Thomas de Veil are one and the same person.

The square on de Veil's breast, suspended from a ribbon about his neck, indicates either the rank of Master or of Past Master, the emblem being used for the latter purpose during the early days of the reorganized Craft. The large apron worn by him is also of interest, and is one of the strongest proofs we have that our aprons were not always of the present convenient size.

Some doubt exists whether Hogarth intended de Veil's companion to be depicted as a Mason. Possibly he may be the tyler of the Lodge, judging from the apron and the sword he carries. Again, he may only be an attache of the tavern where de Veil, to speak charitably and bearing in mind the convivial spirit of our early brethren, drank slightly to excess. The sword may have been de Veil's, taken away from him as a matter of prudence, for he could have done more damage with it than with the cane he wields against an imaginary opponent. The apron on this man may have served a real utilitarian purpose back of a tavern bar. The apparent skill of the man in helping de Veil clearly indicates that this is not his first experience in duties of this kind - a fact which can be used as a cogent argument for or against the theory that he may have been a brother of the Craft.

It is generally agreed that the other two figures in the foreground are satirical characterisations. The knife, or steel, on the belt of one of them is considered to indicate a butcher, and by analogical play on the word "veal" and the name "de Veil," to again point out that the principal figure in the picture is Sir Thomas de Veil.

Another prominent English Masonic researcher, W. H. Rylands, has said, "The picture is a hit, not at Masonry, but at the manners and customs of some Masons of the period.... There is a secret meaning in every little item of the picture, if one could only discover it."

[kadosh]

Originally Posted by grandsecretary

We do not allow men like I described anywhere near our Grand Lodge. Our system is secure. All petitions are properly vetted and the Grand Lodge itself approves or rejects all petitions, in York.

We have control of our Grand lodge. The door is properly secured I can assure you. ....

Well, at the moment this is not a problem for the GLAE. The membership is so small. But it will not be able to control the matter in the USA -and remember this is considerd to be "invading" the territory of regular/recognized Grand Lodges.

As far as controlling membership there is a very big difference between the time span of a GL originally started some 300 years ago (or nearly 200 years ago whichever way it is looked at) and in continous work since that period and a GL that was only reponed 5 years ago!

[grandsecretary]

Originally Posted by kadosh

Well, at the moment this is not a problem for the GLAE. The membership is so small. But it will not be able to control the matter in the USA -and remember this is considerd to be "invading" the territory of regular/recognized Grand Lodges.

As far as controlling membership there is a very big difference between the time span of a GL originally started some 300 years ago (or nearly 200 years ago whichever way it is looked at) and in continous work since that period and a GL that was only reponed 5 years ago!

No there isn't. You are totally out of control. We are not. You have not a clue about our membership, our organisation or anything else and that is how it's going to stay. It doesn't matter how many members we have or where we are represented. We do NOT attract the tyoes that you do. Why? Because we have nothing to offer people like that.

You do talk bunkum kadosh and you become more and more arrogant and out of touch with reality by the minute.

[kadosh]

Originally Posted by grandsecretary

You do talk bunkum kadosh and you become more and more arrogant and out of touch with reality by the minute.

Well, you would say that wouldn't you!

[psquared]

Originally Posted by grandsecretary

We do not allow men like I described anywhere near our Grand Lodge. Our system is secure. All petitions are properly vetted and the Grand Lodge itself approves or rejects all petitions, in York.

We have control of our Grand lodge.

That may well be true, and it is great if it is. That, however does not mean a man could not deceive you one day. At that point all you could do is remove him. Evil men have infiltrated EVERY good organization, it makes a great place to hide. I do wish you success in securing your system though.

[grandsecretary]

No. Our system tests the individual every step of the way and there is no reason for anyone who is not a truly religious man to want to join. There are NO advantages to the individual on this Earth only to those whom we serve.

I keep telling you not to judge what we do by what you do.

[grandsecretary]

Originally Posted by kadosh

Well, you would say that wouldn't you!

No. You really do talk complete and utter tosh kadosh. Think about it. You have actually said that you are going to write to the Archbishop of Canterbury asking him why he allows us to meet in ecclesiastical premises.

Apart from being a very weird thing to do, why would you contemplate such a thing other than simply trying to cause trouble?

It won't work of course but it is just further evidence of the vindictive nature of members of the Moderns system of Freemasonry.

Not very good at public relations are you?

[scorpio]

As a Freemason of the Scottish Constitution of over 20 years standing I am content with this form of Freemasonry. It has meaning for me and many other people who call themselves Freemasons. If there are other people who belong to other forms of Freemasonry and see themselves as being Freemasons that is their concern.

My form of Freemasonry has been around for over 300 years and with the assistance of The Great Architect of the Universe will be around for at least another 300 years of more.

Brother/Companion/Frater Gerard
Freemason Scottish Constitution

[kadosh]

Originally Posted by grandsecretary

No. You really do talk complete and utter tosh kadosh. Think about it. You have actually said that you are going to write to the Archbishop of Canterbury asking him why he allows us to meet in ecclesiastical premises.

Apart from being a very weird thing to do, why would you contemplate such a thing other than simply trying to cause trouble?

No intent to cause trouble I assure you. Just to determine a few matters. However, I will be interested to see what the reply is from Lambeth Palace. Especially if he can differentiate between the systems of Freemasonry and Free Masonry(ie).

By the way - have you heard back yet from The Vatican on the Masonic position of the GLAE and Rome?

[grandsecretary]

You are a very sick man.

[kadosh]

I'm perfectly well actually. What are you frightened of GS?

[grandsecretary]

Child.

[kadosh]

Sad that you have to resort to name calling. Something the Moderns here have been accused of. The apple does not fall from the tree!

[grandsecretary]

[psquared]

Originally Posted by grandsecretary

No. Our system tests the individual every step of the way and there is no reason for anyone who is not a truly religious man to want to join. There are NO advantages to the individual on this Earth only to those whom we serve.

I keep telling you not to judge what we do by what you do.

I am not judging you, or your organization...simply saying that if evil men TRULY wanted to infiltrate your organization, they could...as they have in EVERY SINGLE other organization in history.

Don't confuse that with me hoping they do...as I hope they do not.

To believe your organization is above that happening is somewhat unrealistic especially as your numbers grow and you branch out into other states and nations. You'd be suprised what one man may deem an advantage even though you do not see it as such sir.