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Old 14-02-2010, 06:04 AM   #1
luciferhorus
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Default Sex Magick & Aleister Crowley

Since the "Aleister Crowley and The O.T.O.and His lackeys" thread seems now to be hung up on the issue of Aleister's allegedly "shocking" sexual behaviour and a discussion on human faeces, I thought I might make a new thread on this.

Platonism, Gnosticism, Shame, the Soul / Body and Sexual Morality.

Lucifer

The prophets who have challenged conventional morality and questioned the established gods have often been very extreme and outrageous people. The Greek Philospher Diogones, for example, allegedly would masturbate in public simply to shock and outrage; it was also for challenging the "gods" and the "morality" of the Athenians that the sentence of death was placed upon Socrates. Similarly Crowley went out of his way to challenge conventional morality. The issue of Crowley's allegedly "outrageous" and "shocking" behaviour is being raised on this forum; however frankly to consider harmless acts designed to shock to be "immoral (i.e., evil) is simply a consequence of a mind affected by the anti-body and anti-erotic philosophy which is a cornerstone of religious hypnosis.

The Platonic (despite Plato being essentially a homosexual) / Gnostic perspective is generally that the Creator seemed to have made some kind of mistake when She created the physical world; the physical world, especially the human form is considered to be "dirty," "shameful" and "lowly;" erotcism is seen as a barrier to enlightenment, and the central sins of the priesthood of restiction, that of celibacy and monogamy have come to be considered "virtues," rather the sign of a repressed human psyche.

The Chemistry of Sex Magick

There is a tale of an American woman who went to her doctor complaining that she was becoming more and more masculine; she was growing facial hair and her voice was breaking. When doctor investigated her lifestyle, he found that she would generally "swallow" her boyfriend's semen, and further that her boyfriend was a weightlifter who was injecting testosterone (male hormones); thus a very simple explanation for her increasing masculinity became obvious; however with or without the additional male hormones that were being injected, this bio-chemical process occurs between lovers when there is a exchange of semen, saliva, vaginal fluids, urine, etc. This is a completely natural process. During erotic experiences the body chemistry of the lovers intermingles; they physically "transform" each other to a certain degree; the male becomes more feminised through the effect of female hormones and the female becomes affected by the intake of male hormones from her partner; this is of course not merely restricted to heterosexual relationships, as we are not merely speaking "only" of "hormones" but the entire body chemistry of the partner. This partly explains the phenomenon of "kissing;" it is not merely an act of intimate touching, but an exchange of sexual chemistry. Since today is Valentine's Day I am sure that many will consider this exchange of saliva to be sacred and necessary act in the expression of affection, rather than something "disgusting."

This exchange of bodily fluids is often taken to extremes which the Platonist / Gnostic who views the body as somehow "dirty" and "unnatural" would probably consider the height of disgust; the swallowing of semen and vaginal fluids, licking one's partners body and ingesting sweat and saliva, the ingestion of urine etc; however this is all an entirely natural process and part of the natural desire of a soul liberated from sexual shame, and who rejects the conventions of religious morality and the Platonistic / Gnostic disgust for their own bodies.

The Scent of a Woman

It has been the case that certain French perfumeries have clearly understood the erotic nature of bodily fluids to the point where they have in the past allegedly put female urine into "perfumes;" it is not the smell of "flowers" after all which arouses a heterosexual male, but rather the "scent of a woman," and this aspect of sexual arousal is widespread throughout the animal world where many male animals can tell if a female is "on heat" simply be the scent of their urine. It is only in the world of human beings where we find repressed creatures who would find something "disgusting" about this, however if this is a flaw in the creation, the blame is entirely the Creator's, for it would seem to be entirely natural. It has also been suggested that if a female simply covered herself in her own urine that it would be more erotic for a male than covering herself in perfume (which has also been alleged to contain, strangely enought cat's urine); this might explain to some extent the fascination with the modern sex ritual of the "golden shower."

Tantra and Sacred Sex.

Generally in a religious Temple, one is discouraged to think about carnal, erotic or physical desires; such things are generally considered "unnatural, low, dirty, sinful" and an error on the part of the Creator; Tantric thought of course reverses this and considers eroticism to be sacred and divine (godlike). In Tantric philosophy the most sacred act is that of sexual union, not celibacy, nor idol worship, nor abstinence; there is simply no concept that the human form is in any way "fallen, sinful, dirty, shameful" etc., on the contrary; it is considered a sacred temple of eroticism, more holy and desirable than any temple of stone and glass; after all in our natural inner world of erotic fantasy, it is ultimately an erotic human person which is object of desire, not a Temple of marble, nor a self-hating celibate priest nor an inanimate idol.

Crowley

Crowley would perform magickal rituals while on opiates and psychoatives in conjunction with sexual acts which contravened conventional morality; while he was "active / initiative" with numerous females in heterosexual roles and openly polyamorous (non monogamous), he appears to have been mostly "passive" in homosexual roles and was known to dress in female attire. All this gender and sexual experimentation of course perceived as "dirty / fallen / sinful / shocking" by those who are sexually repressed and who consider such experimentation to be immoral ("evil").

In the last 60 years since Crowley's death however we have seen a great sexual revolution; the old Platonist / Gnostic / Religious / repressed view of the human form and of eroticism has been swept away; we live in an age of erotic experimentation where people act out their sexual fantasies without shame.

Faeces

Of course, from the perspective of the person who considers the human body as an object of disgust, the most shocking acts by Crowley are often considered to be those related to human waste; however 60 years after his death probably the most popular type of pornography is "anal pornography," perhaps because this is the greatest taboo for the Gnostic (body hating) heterosexual male; it is an act which also to a degree transforms the consciousness.

Frankly during sexual experiences with partners of the same sex or opposite sex, where anal sex and oral sex are involved, it is virtually impossible not to absorb each other's various bodily fluids; however it is rather interesting that this has now become an ultimate male fantasy, rather than an act which brings upon disgust and revulsion. For those of us for whom this is not taboo and who have followed Crowley's example and crossed over into the world of sex magick and of immersion in erotic experiences, sexual experimentation, the abandonment of exclusive heterosexuality and the abandonment of monogamy, anal sex has become essentially the "highest act" in sacred union rather than the lowest act; it is an act accompanied by the psychological experience of extreme erotic submission (for those in the passive role) and domination (for those in an active role).

Fear and Loathing

I consider the age old attitudes of revulsion and disgust towards the human body to signs of self hatred; a fear and loathing of one's divine (godlike) human form; this self hatred is generally accompanied by the hatred of others who do not also share this loathing for themselves, and it is certainly at the root of homophobia and religious bigotry. Probably the essential meaning of a Christian who states that they are a "sinner (i.e., evil)" is that they have erotic desires; this self hatred of their own natural eroticism often leads to their hatred of others who do not share this self loathing and who rejoice in sexual experimentation and who immerse themselves in an ocean of eroticism.

"Mr Disgusted" of Tunbridge Wells

Throughout my life there has always been the stereotypical Platonist / Gnostic, "Mr Disgusted of Tunbridge Wells" who writes letters to the Times or to the BBC complaining whenever a woman's breast was shown on TV, and who has thankfully been more and more drowned out over the years by Pythonesque humour, satire and ridicule. The favorite vocabulary of such persons with a "Mary Whitehouse" metality has probably been the three words "shocking," "outrageous" and "disgusting." From a psychological point of view it seems to me that it is clear that such people are disgusted, shocked and outraged by their own physical form and by natural eroticism; it is really an expression of disgust with human nature; it is a hatred for the creation and the Creator, who surely from their narrow perspective, had a lapse of Her divine omnipotence when She created the penis, the vagina and the anus and bodily fluids which carry sexual hormones; it is an essential disgust of organic chemistry; it is entirely the mindset of hateful, bigoted person for whom future generations will hopefull remember with scorn.


To those who consider Crowley's sexual antics to be shameful, disgusting, shocking and outrageous, frankly he would probably have thought the same about you, and it is a sentiment I share; I am guilty of no more nor less than he in is in this respect, and I am without shame; rather I have a sense of pride.

True Will


Pursuing one's "True Will" is not some lofty Platonistic / Gnostic idea which transcends human nature and the physical form, accessible only the to the magickan or the high priestess; on the contrary. As human beings we all seek to be objects of lust and love, to be desired and to be loved; we also seek to pursue our erotic desires for others and to experience the divine communion of love; we are social creatures created to ineract erotically and emotionally with others; we commonly consider "solitary confinement" and loneliness to be forms of imprisonment; it is only the lost and tortured souls who rejoice in celibacy, solitude, loneliness, sexual repression and the fear and loathing of their own mortal nature.

Love is the Law; not self hatred and the hatred of humanity; it is the most holy and sacred law to which the proponents of religious hypnosis and the sins of restriction pay lip service to; never the less they represent love's most unholy and profane anti-thesis; thinking themselves holy, pure and righteous they propagate all manner of heresy and blasphemy against the divine (godlike) nature and against love itself.

Love and Light

Lucifer

For blasphemy, heresy, revolution etc.


__________________________


"Worship me with wines and strange drugs whereof I shall tell my prophet, and be drunk thereof! They shall not harm ye at all!" AC

______________________



Sex is the most powerful instinct in man. The politician and the priest have understood from the very beginning that sex is the most driving energy in man. It has to be curtailed, it has to be cut. If man is allowed total Freedom in sex, then there will be no possibility to dominate him. To make a slave out of him will be impossible.

Have you not seen it being done? When you want a bull to be yoked to a cart, what do you do? You castrate him, you destroy his sex energy. And have you seen the difference between a bull and an ox? What a difference! An ox is a poor phenomenon, a slave. A bull is a beauty; a bull is a glorious pheonomenon, a great splendor. See a bull walking, how he walks like an emperor! And see an ox pulling a cart.

The same has been done to man. The sex instinct has been curtailed, cut, crippled. Man does not exist as the bull now, he exists like the ox, and each man is pulling a thousand and one carts. Look and you will find behind you a thousand and one carts, and you are yoked to them.

Why can’t you yoke a bull? The bull is too powerful. If he sees a cow passing by, he will throw both you and the cart, and he will move to the cow! He will not bother a bit about who you are, and he will not listen. It will be impossible to control the bull. Sex energy is life energy; it is uncontrollable. And the politician and the priest are not interested in you, they are interested in channeling your energy into other directions. So there is a certain Mechanism behind it--it has to be understood.

Sex repression, tabooing sex, is the very foundation of human slavery. Man cannot be free unless sex is free. Man cannot be really free unless his sex energy is allowed natural growth.

These are the five tricks through which man has been turned into a slave, into an ugly phenomenon, a cripple.

The first is:
Keep man as weak as possible if you want to dominate him. If the priest wants to dominate you or the politician wants to dominate you, you have to be kept as weak as possible. And the best way to keep a man weak is not to give love total freedom. Love is nourishment..."

"...Second:
Keep man as ignorant and deluded as possible so that he can easily be deceived..."

"...The third secret:
Keep man as frightened as possible. And the sure way is not to allow him love, because love destroys fear--’love casteth out fear.’ When you are not in love you become more interested in security, in safety. When you are in love you are more interested in adventure, in exploration...."

"...The Fourth:
Keep man as miserable as possible--because a miserable man is confused, a miserable man has no self-worth, a miserable man is self-condemnatory, a miserable man feels that he must have done something wrong. A miserable man has no grounding--you can push him from here and there, he can be turned into driftwood very easily. And a miserable man is always ready to be commanded, to be ordered, to be disciplined, because he knows ’On my own I am simply miserable. Maybe someody else can discipline my life.’ He is a ready victim."

"And the fifth:
Keep men as alienated from each other as possible, so that they cannot band together for some purpose of which the priest and the politician may not approve. Keep people separate from each other. Don’t allow them too much intimacy. When people are separate, lonely, alienated from each other, they cannot band together. And there are a thousand and one tricks to keep them apart.

For example, if you are holding the hand of a man--you are a man and you are holding the hand of a man and walking down the road, singing--you will feel guilty because people will start looking at you. Are you gay, homosexual or something? Two men are not allowed to be happy together. They are condemned as homosexuals. Fear arises. If your friend comes and takes your hand in his hand, you look around: ’Is somebody looking or not?’ And you are just in a hurry to drop the hand..."

-Osho



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Old 14-02-2010, 06:40 AM   #2
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Crowley's sex-magick was clearly indebted to Gnostic practices, especially those recorded by Epiphanius. So it is somewhat unfair to label both "libertine" and "ascetic" thought under single name of "Gnostic".

And yes, a duality between matter and spirit is clearly held in Platonism, but that certainly didn't stop Plato from rhapsodizing on the virtues of manlove in the Symposium, which you mention. But morality and rank hypocrisy often go hand-in-hand.

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Old 14-02-2010, 07:00 AM   #3
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It was a hard thing to undo this knot.

The rainbow shines, but only in the thought

Of him that looks. Yet not in that alone,

For who makes rainbows by invention?

And many standing round a waterfall

See one bow each, yet not the same to all,

But each a hand's breadth further than the next.

The sun on falling waters writes the text

Which yet is in the eye or in the thought.

It was a hard thing to undo this knot

G.M. Hopkins
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Moment by moment, breath by breath, unbind the mind

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Old 14-02-2010, 07:04 AM   #4
luciferhorus
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But Crowley's sex-magick was clearly indebted to Gnostic practices, especially those recorded by Epiphanius. So it is somewhat unfair to label both "libertine" and "ascetic" thought under single name of "Gnostic".
I think the problem here is just a simple lingustic problem; the term "Gnostic" has essentially two definitions; on the one hand it is just one of many Greek words for knowledge, specifically a kind of divine, spiritual, shamanic, esoteric, inner / subjective knowledge, as in the "Gnostic Mass" http://www.hermetic.com/sabazius/gnostic_mass.htm which is essentially a magickal ritual. All Magickians seek "gnosis," by the Greek definition but not all magickians are into the philosophy of "Gnosticism:" on the contrary; it is rather anti-thetical to sex magick and has more in common with Christianity.

In addition to the use of the term "gnosis" in the Greek language which probably best translates simply as "shamanic knowledge", "Gnosticism" is also understood as a school of philosophy; it is this that I refer to as a body-hating ideology which does not consider flesh, matter and eroticism to be "divine," but rather only that which is "spiritual."


Quote:
And yes, a duality between matter and spirit is clearly held in Platonism, but that certainly didn't stop Plato from rhapsodizing on the virtues of manlove in the Symposium.
Yes Plato was undoubtably homosexual; further almost all women in that era would have been almost entirely illiterate and uneduated and I doubt if someone of Plato's intelligence and education would have been able to have even a "Platonic" friendship with a woman; those capable of understanding him would have been predominately male; however despite Plato's homosexuality, when we speak of "Platonic Love" this is not generally understood to refer to relationships between homosexuals, but rather to a non-erotic friendship; generally "Platonic" also implies that what is non-erotic is somehow "pure" and virtuous and what is erotic is somehow "impure," "dirty," "low" and quite the opposite of "virtuous."

Lux

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Old 15-02-2010, 05:28 PM   #5
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All Magickians seek "gnosis," by the Greek definition but not all magickians are into the philosophy of "Gnosticism:" on the contrary; it is rather anti-thetical to sex magick and has more in common with Christianity.
Gnostic Christians also practiced sex magick, and the O.T.O. was originally a Gnostic Christian order until it formally accepted Thelema. The fathers of the (Roman) church, in their condemnations of Gnosticism, have mentioned the Gnostic use of sexual fluids as a eucharist.
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Old 15-02-2010, 07:04 PM   #6
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Gnostic Christians also practiced sex magick, and the O.T.O. was originally a Gnostic Christian order until it formally accepted Thelema. The fathers of the (Roman) church, in their condemnations of Gnosticism, have mentioned the Gnostic use of sexual fluids as a eucharist.
Just to restate, this is simply a lingustic issue and a confusion of language created by simplicity of the English language. For example most Catholics believe in Communion (Fr. "communare:" to share), but at the same time Catholicism is an anti-Communist phenomenon. Here we find the same term in language (Communism) to describe two different meanings.

English is a very simple language were we can say to a lover (i.e., an erotic relationship), "I love you," and then state "I love my mother" and "I love ice cream;" those whose first language is Greek or Chinese would of course be shocked by a literal translation of the above, since both languages have a number of words which approximately translate as the singular English term "love."

Similarly in the English language when we speak about the Greek term "gnosis" and "Gnosticism" as a school of philosophy a very similar confusion arises.

The Catholics for example have promoted a classic "Gnostic" reigion in terms of their revulsion of the human body and of all matters "erotic" and "natural" which are seen as a somehow "dirty," "low," "fallen" and "sinful." On the other hand the use of the term "Gnostic" in Crowley's "Gnostic Mass" has very little to do with this form of self hatred and the hatred of all things "natural" and "erotic."

It is as if I were to say "Catholics are anti-Communists" and a French Catholic argued that this is not true since all Catholics believe in "Communion;" this is simply a lingusitic confusion due to the use of the same term in English to describe, on the one hand, a reigious ritual and on the other hand a political philosophy; similarly with the Greek term "gnosis;" it is as if a person whose first language is Greek referred to a English person as an insane "fetishist" who stated "I love ice cream" and then "I love my mother," etc.

Lux


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Old 15-02-2010, 08:22 PM   #7
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In the last 60 years since Crowley's death however we have seen a great sexual revolution; the old Platonist / Gnostic / Religious / repressed view of the human form and of eroticism has been swept away; we live in an age of erotic experimentation where people act out their sexual fantasies without shame.
er remind me what sex is for again. All this liberation and white birth rates and white populations are declining...

Quote:
Faeces

Of course, from the perspective of the person who considers the human body as an object of disgust, the most shocking acts by Crowley are often considered to be those related to human waste; however 60 years after his death probably the most popular type of pornography is "anal pornography," perhaps because this is the greatest taboo for the Gnostic (body hating) heterosexual male; it is an act which also to a degree transforms the consciousness.
Sex in the City written by a homosexual Jew promotes homosexual promiscuity for females. As for the porn industry

Quote:
Triple Exthnics: Nathan Abrams on Jews in the American porn industry, Jewish Quarterly (UK), [print edition]
2005, p. 27-30
"A story little told is that of Jews in Hollywood's seedier cousin, the adult film industry. Perhaps we'd prefer that
the 'triple exthnics' didn't exist, but there's no getting away from the fact that secular Jews played (and still
continue to play) a disproportionate role throughout the adult film industry in America. Jewish involvement in
pornography has a long history in the United States, as Jews have helped transform a fringe subculture into what
has become a primary constituent of Americana. These are the 'true blue' Jews. Smut peddlers
Jewish activity in the porn industry divides into two (sometimes overlapping) genres: pornographers and
performers. Though Jews make up only two percent of the American population, they have been prominent in
pornography. Many erotica dealers in the book trade between 1890 and 1940 were immigrant Jews of German
origin ...
Quote:
Al Goldstein, the publisher of Screw magazine, said (on lukeford.com), 'The only
reason that Jews are in pornography is that we think that Christ sucks. Catholicism
sucks. We don't believe in authoritarianism." Pornography thus becomes a way of
defiling Christian culture and, as it penetrates to the very heart of the American
mainstream (and is no doubt consumed by those very same WASPs), its subversive
character becomes more charged ...
much more

http://www.nogw.com/download2/%5E8_j_dom_porn.pdf

Homosexuals were recruited into the political class and as communist spies because they could be blackmailed. Then homosexuality was legalised, and now every second male presenter on TV is gay.

Now, if you look at the urgent sticky at the top of the forum placed by Sean you can see that today pedophilia is the control mechanism. However, as we become more enlightened even pedophilia will become the new normal, and something viler will be used. Already recruits who 'do as they wilt' have been compromised and likely are being maneouvred into positions of power or pre-power.

Quote:
Three Russian Jews and eight Italian Jews were arrested after police
discovered they had been kidnapping non-Jewish children between the
ages of two and five years from Russian orphanages, raping the
children, and then murdering them on film. Mostly non-Jewish customers,
including 1,700 nationwide, 600 in Italy, and an unknown number in the
United States, paid as much as $20,000 per film to watch little
children being raped and murdered.
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/archi...hp/t-9868.html

Sure Lucifer, Satanism is good and those of us trying to raise decent children are fuddy duddy old fashioned types whose time is up.

Our Luciferian representative of the communists from the Synagogue of Satan speaks with silver tongue - but one never knows where that tongue has been...

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Old 15-02-2010, 08:57 PM   #8
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er remind me what sex is for again. All this liberation and white birth rates and white populations are declining......
Yes well to many of the progressive, modernist population of the world, sex has become a central pastime and one of life's purposes, rather than something which in the past has been considered shameful, "dirty" and almost "unspeakable;" few modernists today consider sex as purely for "procreation."


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Sex in the City written by a homosexual Jew promotes homosexual promiscuity for females. As for the porn industry
Well the pornography industry is generally exploitative due to it existing in a Capitalist environment; however if the Capitalist element was removed, we would still find that human beings are essentially erotic creatures. The rise of the pornographic industry of course has had a positive role in breaking down the sexually repressed, inhibited attitudes towards sex, but there is also a negative aspect which primarily to do with Capital and exploitation.

If we compare the lifestyle of most women in the world, which expecially in the Islamic and Hindu worlds is simply that of a sex slave to the "Sex and the City" archetypal woman, this is rather like comparing the life of a slave woman to that of a free woman; clearly from the point of view of a paternalistic (male supremacist) mysoginistic male, the repressed female sex slave probably is preferrable, just as a submissive slave is preferrable to a slavemaster than a rebellious slave who seeks to be free.

With regards to "Sex and the City" being written by a homosexual Jew, what is more outrageous is the influence of heterosexual Gentiles in the mass media; such an outrage should of course be outlawed; heterosexual Gentiles represent the worst kind of corruption of the mass media imaginable and are associated with the influence of all kinds of immorality (i.e., evil) such as the sins of monogamy, marraige, Christianity, etc.

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Homosexuals were recruited into the political class and as communist spies because they could be blackmailed. Then homosexuality was legalised, and now every second male presenter on TV is gay.
Well in both the Soviet and Capitalist military intelligence agencies there has also been the widespread use of heterosexuals. One could also remark that on TV a great many of the TV presenters are heterosexual; the employment of heterosexuals in the mass media should of course be criminalised and outlawed; it is an outrage.


Quote:
Now, if you look at the urgent sticky at the top of the forum placed by Sean you can see that today pedophilia is the control mechanism. However, as we become more enlightened even pedophilia will become the new normal, and something viler will be used. Already recruits who 'do as they wilt' have been compromised and likely are being maneouvred into positions of power or pre-power.
Paedophilia, sexual repression / celibacy and organised religion seem to go hand in hand; the tendency of allegedly celibate Christian priests to abuse children is unsurprising.

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Sure Lucifer, Satanism is good and those of us trying to raise decent children are fuddy duddy old fashioned types whose time is up.
Well I would not say that your time is "up," as yet; you can still buy female sex slaves (wives) in Pakistan for a few hundred dollars, and there are still millions of women in the world willing to subject themselves to a life of monogamous sex slavery (marriage), domestic slavery and submission to paternalistic misogynistic males for the purposes of breeding children.

Lucifer
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Old 16-02-2010, 12:29 AM   #9
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Gnostic Christians also practiced sex magick, and the O.T.O. was originally a Gnostic Christian order until it formally accepted Thelema. The fathers of the (Roman) church, in their condemnations of Gnosticism, have mentioned the Gnostic use of sexual fluids as a eucharist.
Precisely.
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Old 16-02-2010, 12:50 AM   #10
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heterosexual Gentiles represent the worst kind of corruption of the mass media imaginable and are associated with the influence of all kinds of immorality (i.e., evil) such as the sins of monogamy, marraige, Christianity, etc.
Taking a wife, trying to raise a family, does not mean you treat procreation as some kind of sinful event. The only and major difference is the thrill of the 'new' cannot be tasted unless one chooses to philander. It is of course a choice. However children brought up in normal stable households are generally much better balanced individuals. Nothing is perfect but I would say finding a 'soul mate' and being (or at least TRYING' to be faithful) is the most noble path since it is more selfless - gives more back into humanity.

It's not about what you can get, its about what you can give.

That's the difference between Christ and Satan/Lucifer

In a sense present immoral behavioural tendencies are like the national debt - jam today famine tomorrow

Now think about that

plus we were told in the Protocols and the Communist manifesto this would happen - and why

edit

Its not about what you take from children, its what you give to them

Takers - blackmailed - in power as a consequence - the CURRENT crop of Shabbat Goy - tip of the iceberg

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showp...&postcount=275

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Old 16-02-2010, 12:55 AM   #11
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rodin i don't know how to break this to you but after doing some p heavy research on the ol' google internets i have amassed considerable evidence that this jesus dude was jewish
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Old 16-02-2010, 01:22 AM   #12
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rodin i don't know how to break this to you but after doing some p heavy research on the ol' google internets i have amassed considerable evidence that this jesus dude was jewish
MSM?

Try this

http://engforum.pravda.ru/showthread.php?t=218253

Jesus did not respect the Sabbath
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Old 16-02-2010, 01:24 AM   #13
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rodin i don't know how to break this to you but after doing some p heavy research on the ol' google internets i have amassed considerable evidence that this jesus dude was jewish
are you quite sure about that?

I would read some of ralf ellis work,very interesting.(no relation to rolf I am sure)

King Jesus - Jesus the royal revolutionary

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=95474

I believe he was indeed royal, for that is what Christ and Messiah mean - 'king'. Moreover, it is likely that JC was a very well-connected royal, being related to Queen Cleopatra of Egypt and to Phraates IV of Persia.

He was involved in a revolutionary struggle, not simply for the throne of Judaea, but also for the throne of Rome. Surprisingly, that is what the New Testament texts and other contemporary records say.

Last edited by lightgiver; 16-02-2010 at 01:27 AM.
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Old 16-02-2010, 09:02 AM   #14
rodin
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are you quite sure about that?

I would read some of ralf ellis work,very interesting.(no relation to rolf I am sure)

King Jesus - Jesus the royal revolutionary

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=95474

I believe he was indeed royal, for that is what Christ and Messiah mean - 'king'. Moreover, it is likely that JC was a very well-connected royal, being related to Queen Cleopatra of Egypt and to Phraates IV of Persia.

He was involved in a revolutionary struggle, not simply for the throne of Judaea, but also for the throne of Rome. Surprisingly, that is what the New Testament texts and other contemporary records say.
He was not involved a revolutionary struggle on Earth. Give unto Ceasar what is his. Those subsequently killing 'in his name' were and are blasphemers, hypocrites, agenteur, certainly not Christ-followers
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Old 19-02-2010, 01:21 PM   #15
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I believe he was indeed royal, for that is what Christ and Messiah mean - 'king'. Moreover, it is likely that JC was a very well-connected royal, being related to Queen Cleopatra of Egypt and to Phraates IV of Persia.
No no! The messiah is the Jewish KING Jesus Christ was not the Jewish messiah they have never regarded him as the Jewish Messiah or the line of David.Otherwise they would all be messianic jews hence not really jews at all.

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He was involved in a revolutionary struggle, not simply for the throne of Judaea, but also for the throne of Rome. Surprisingly, that is what the New Testament texts and other contemporary records say.
What guru have you been reading to come up with that or did you just make it up there is no part of the NT that could to my knowledge be exegeted to mean that!.
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Old 19-02-2010, 07:08 PM   #16
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He was not involved a revolutionary struggle on Earth. .
The Gospels certainly give the impression that he considered himself to be the intended messianic King of Israel; further his followers were clearly carrying weapons, as was common among the Judean revolutionaries; the fight which broke out in Gesthemane was cearly an armed struggle which was initiated by one of his followers who outnumbered, subsequently fled the scene; further it states in the Gospels that the Romans sent a "cohort" of armed military to arrest him; a "cohort" is a rather pricise term which refers to a 10th of a Roman Legion (a legion being a minimum of about 5000 soldiers plus calvary); this would have been quite a military operation which is entirely unlikely if they were unarmed pacifists; in fact the Romans did not execute people for "heresy (which was the charge against him by the Solomonic Temple priesthood who placed the reward on hm), for after all the Romans themselves were pagan heretics to the priesthood; crucifixion was a common form of execution for political criminals (terrorists).


Quote:
Give unto Ceasar what is his.
This is probably the most widely misquoted text from the New Testament which is used by Capitalists to defend Capitalist Christianity.

In fact his answer to the question was preceeded by the following introduction:

And they sent to him some of the Pharisees and some of the Hero'di-ans, to entrap him in his talk. .......But knowing their hypocrisy, he said to them, "Why put me to the test?


If he had spoke out against the payment of taxes to the Romans he would certainly have been arrested for sedition (which he eventually was anyway), had he supported the payment of taxes he would hardly be popular among the anti-Roman Judean revolutionaries, and further since his stated position was "carry no money" and in general he was clearly an anti-propertyist and anti-monetarist, it begs the question of how a person who advised others not to carry money and also to sell all that they have an give it to the poor, could possibly pay taxes.


Then the whole assembly rose and led him off to Pilate. And they began to accuse him, saying, "We have found this man subverting our nation. He opposes payment of taxes to Caesar and claims to be a king." So Pilate asked Jesus, "Are you the king of the Jews?" "Yes, it is as you say," Jesus replied.

Luke 23

Quote:
Those subsequently killing 'in his name' were and are blasphemers, hypocrites, agenteur, certainly not Christ-followers

But those mine enemies, which would not that I should reign over them, bring hither, and slay them before me.


Luke 19:27

“If you don't have a sword, sell your cloak and buy one.”
Luke 22.

____________________________

On a Justification for Armed revolution. On a Theology of Liberation. On the Revolutionary Jesus. An Anarchist perspective



By Lucifer
Day of Judgement 2008

Fire, plague and poisoned waters.

_____________________




A Christian is allegedly a 'Christ-like' person who looks to the Jesus of history as a mentor and who claims to believe in his teachings as ‘the word of God.’

‘And every one that hears these sayings of mine, and does them not, shall be likened unto a foolish man, who built his house upon the sand’ (Mt. 7)


Consider that the historical Jesus appears to have been a person who fits the following description.

Tenets of the Historical Jesus.

1: Anti-Monetarism / Anti-Capitalism

He did not believe in any form of monetarism (do not carry money.... do not receive money, only food); he was a homeless (he had nowhere to lay his head), unemployed ( he called upon those with him to give up their professions), anti-propertyist who propagated not monetarism but proto-Communism (Fr. Communare: to share. Communism: to share all property in common)
.
‘Carry neither gold, nor silver, nor brass in your purses, neither two robes, neither shoes, nor yet a staff. Mt 10’

It is easier for a camel to go through the eye of a needle, than for a rich man to enter the kingdom of God.- Matthew 19:24


And the question needs to raised as to how a person who carries no money could pay taxes; one of the alleged reasons for his arrest.


Then the whole assembly rose and led him off to Pilate. And they began to accuse him, saying, “We have found this man subverting our nation. He opposes payment of taxes to Caesar and claims to be a king.”
(Luke 23:1-4)

Do not worship mammon (Aramaic: Material possessions / clothing / money). Consider Solomon in all his glory?

Lay not up for yourself treasures upon the earth...
- Matthew 6:19

2: No Swearing of Oaths.

..and of course without the swearing of oaths and contracts, Capitalism would cease to exist, and ‘I pledge allegiance to the flag…’ would be a violation of the words and edicts of Jesus, as would American Presidents swearing on stacks of Bibles, and Christians swearing oaths in courts or military oaths to fight the enemies of Capitalism.

But I say unto you, swear not at all; neither by heaven... nor by
earth.-
Matthew 5:34-35



3: He cried out against the rich and the religious hypocrites.

Woe to you brood of vipers… hypocrites…serpents.. in the name of the prophets you would have stoned the prophets, etc., etc.
Today it is the Christian state terrorists who have a long history of torturing and murdering Communists, particularly in the post war history of Latin America with their Palace revolutions and miltary coups.


4: He did not sell salvation for Capitalist coin.

He did not ask for tithes or offerings; he fed the poor and freely cared for the sick.

5: He told the rich to devote their wealth to the poor.

Sell all that you have and give to the poor... Luke 12:33

6: No Priesthood.

He was clearly ‘against' the priesthood of his age, and indeed against any form of priesthood.


‘Be not called Rabbi (teacher)… and call no man your father upon the earth…neither be called masters……and whoever exalts himself shall be abased. (Mt.38)’

7: Anti-Capitalist Martyrdom and Rebellion

This is the true meaning of 'take up your cross;' this was a common punishment for anti-Roman terrorists.

He was tortured and executed for his rebellion against the religious establishment, at their request, and allegedly as a political criminal; he did not support the corrupt government and the Solomonic priesthood (the Sadducees).

8: Non-Idolatry

He was not an idolater, he never referred to himself as the Creator; he may have invoked the Messianic prophecies but he clearly was not so arrogant as to consider himself to be the Creator; indeed he cried out to the Creator at times and referred constantly to the Creator in the Third person. Christians today worship him as an object of idolatry and propagate the Captialist anti-thesis of his teachings.

9: No Public Praying. No Praying in Temples.

He told his followers, 'Do not pray in public in the streets and the Temples.'


And when you pray, you must not be as the hypocrites are: for they love to pray standing in the temples and in the corners of the streets, that they may be seen of men. I say to you, they have their reward. But you, when thou pray, enter into your room, and when you have shut the door, pray in secret; and your God which hears in secret shall answer you. And when you pray, use not vain repetitions, as the heathen do: for they think that they shall be heard for their much speaking. (Mt. 6)

In other words, a true Christ-like person would never pray in public or in a church, nor would they construct any form of Temple.

10: The revolutionary militant (terrorist) Jesus: Armed Revolution.

"Do not suppose that I come to bring peace to the earth: I
did not come to bring peace but a sword..........I have come to cast fire onto the earth; would that it be already kindled"



Consider that at one point he asks his followers to sell their robes if they have to and buy swords. There are two interpretations of the answer, one being 'we have two swords,' and another being 'we have two swords each.' The Judean siccari (Swordsmen or 'terrorists’ to the Romans) commonly carried two swords, as opposed to the sword and shield of the Romans.

'Cohort' (L. a tenth of a Legion).

It clearly states that a cohort (L. a 10th of a legion) of Romans arrested Jesus. A legion was a minimum of 5000 men plus cavalry. Thus a minimum of 500 armed soldiers (plus the Temple guard, who were also armed) arrested Jesus in Gethsemane where an armed fight broke out; outnumbered his followers fled. This begs the question of why 500 armed soldiers would attempt to arrest a group of unarmed pacifists. It simply does not make sense.



Now compare this man to modern day Christians in general. Are they really Christ-like? Do they really believe in all of the above?

Indeed today it is only the Communists who represent his legacy; the Christian Capitalists represent all that he despised.

Two types of Christians; the hypnotists of the 'Jesus Business' and the hypnotised innocents.

I do not believe that the hypnotists of the Jesus business who claim to be 'experts' on the sayings of Jesus can possibly justify their business by the teachings of Jesus. I consider them to be universally corrupt and pied pipers; those who have vested interests in 'Capital' and earn a living from the Jesus business cannot be expected to agree with the tenets above. If they are offended; so too it must be stated that they ‘give offence’ to the students of the historical Jesus and to all liberation theologians and Christian Anarchists.

Consider also that the two major state terrorist countries in the world have Christian heads of state (Obama and Elizabeth Windsor) and that they are totally committed to militant world Capitalist revolution, the holocaust of all militant enemies and the economic enslavement of humanity.

The hypnotised innocents; the proletariat.

Clearly many Christians are simply hypnotised, and it is they who need to be woken up; that simply requires education.




Above: State terrorist collaborator, evangelical Capitalist and religious hypocrite, Pat Robertson'


Shame on Christendom

Though the teachings of Jesus are clearly offensive to the Christian Capitalists, it is quite fair to judge the Christians by the teachings of the person whom they claim to represent. If they do not wish to be so judged, they should not claim to represent Jesus; it would be more honest if they sold their slavation for coin in the name of Adam Smith, Ayn Rand or some other Capitalist .

Jesus was a very offensive person; he ranted and raged at the injustices of his society and cried out 'Woe to you hypocrites,' to the proponents of organised religion and Capital. If he had been diplomatic and had not given offence, it is unlikely that the priesthood would have placed a reward for his arrest. The prophets have always been very extreme and outspoken people

Today in the name of Jesus, all manner of religious hypocrisy is propagated in his name, Capitalist Revolution, the selling of salvation for coin, the construction of elaborate Temples while billions suffer in dire poverty, and 900 million people, mostly women and children are close to starvation.

Shame.

Woe to the Capitalist hypnotists of Christianity, in the name of the prophets they would have persecuted and rejected the prophets.

Great and terrible and dreadful and wrathful shall be the Day of Judgement.

They wheat shall be separated from the chaff (the Capitalists and the hypocrites of religion) and the chaff cast into the fire.

The Final Holocaust shall be worse than any other that has come before.

Lucifer



For Anarchism. For Communism. Lux. For War, Revolution, anything good but strong.

For armed violent apocalyptic revolution in all the world on a day and an hour.

No mercy or quarter on they who deserve none.



"Enter through the narrow gate. For wide is the gate and broad is the road that leads to destruction, and many enter through it. But small is the gate and narrow the road that leads to life, and only a few find it."............" "Many will say to Me on that day, `Lord, Lord, did we not prophesy in Your name, and in Your name cast out demons, and in Your name perform many miracles?' "And then I will declare to them, `I never knew you; depart from me you workers of iniquity.' "Therefore everyone who hears these words of Mine and acts on them, may be compared to a wise man who built his house on the rock. "And the rain fell, and the floods came, and the winds blew and slammed against that house; and yet it did not fall, for it had been founded on the rock.

Matthew 7:13-27
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