Freemasonry Q&A

[thelonious]

Originally Posted by serpentoffire

In the base of the authors I believe that you are member of O.T.O.

Is it correct?

No, I'm not a member of the O.T.O., although I consider myself at least fairly knowledeable about them.

I hold membership in Freemasonry (including York and Scottish Rite, and various appendant bodies).

Outside of Masonry, I am a member of Builders of the Adytum, a former member of the Ancient Mystic Order Rosae Crucis, and have memberships in the Knights of Pythias, Loyal Order of Moose, and Benevolent and Protective Order of Elk.

[thetonic]

Have you ever heard of Leo Zagami?

[serpentoffire]

Originally Posted by thetonic

Have you ever heard of Leo Zagami?


http://video.google.com/videoplay?do...arch&plindex=1

I know personally Leo and I went in his house in Rome.

I had a meeting two days ago using skype where Leo responded us about a lot of questions about Illuminati and freemasonry.

[thetonic]

Originally Posted by serpentoffire

I know personally Leo and I went in his house in Rome.

I had a meeting two days ago using skype where Leo responded us about a lot of questions about Illuminati and freemasonry.

Wicked! .. Hook me up with some info Serp! Im personally skeptical, but he does say some truth i can feel it

[thelonious]

Originally Posted by thetonic

Have you ever heard of Leo Zagami?

Yes, I've seen a couple of his YouTube videos, and have spoke to several Thelemites (both OTO and anti-OTO) about him.

Zagami briefly belonged to a small illegitimate branch-off of OTO called OTOA. It was founded by an expelled ex-member of OTO who lives in Chicago. Zagami was apparently expelled from this group, and has since made a big stink over it. He has never been a regular Mason or even a regular OTO member (all his certificates can be viewed online; notice all of them were signed by the same guy, the Chicago dude).

I don't know if you know anything about OTO and its splinter groups and politics, but that's a thread in itself.

[psychicdefender]

Originally Posted by thelonious

Possibly, but not necessarily. Regardless if you have family members that are Masons, if you have friends that are Masons, they'd probably like to see you join the fraternity.

Something which my family have never made plain to me, so I assume that none of my immediate family/friends are masons.

Originally Posted by thelonious

No, that would strongly go against the principles of Masonry. Masonic law states that new candidates must come by their own free will and accord, without improper prompting, and have as their reason for joining a desire of knowledge and to be serviceable to their fellow man.

But would it negate my free will? If I had made the 'mistake' of assuming that was what was required of me to get anywhere, it was never made plain that it was required of me, then surely I would have been acting of my own free will.

Originally Posted by thelonious

If a Mason tried to trick you into joining, it wouldn't help you or him. You would not be receptive to Freemasonry because you'd feel that you'd been conned, and the member who tricked you would have violated his obligations and be subject to expulsion.

How would I have been conned? Everyone enters into masonry without the damndest idea what it provides.

Originally Posted by thelonious

Masonry is a theistic institution, largely concerned with spiritual growth and knowledge.

In my limited understanding and from what has been explained to me a 'Supreme Being' can be anything (generally a school of thought, for instance Philosophy) so how is masonry theistic?

Originally Posted by thelonious

The original mediaval intiation into the stonecraft guild was pretty simple: the candidate took an oath to perform his duties, was presented with the working tools, and apprenticed to some Master Mason. When the fraternity began to evolve into a philosophical society, the ritual was expanded upon by neo-Platonists, Kabalists, Rosicrucians, Hermeticists, and various mystics and occult philosophers, probably as a method of preserving their teachings during a time of persecution by the Church. This is probably also the reason the fraternity went underground at that point as a secret society.

So basically masonry is just a society of philosophers using rituals most of them don't understand?

Originally Posted by thelonious

I'm not sure what you mean by "fallen" cherubs. The Coat of Arms of the United Grand Lodge of England displays the Cherubs on the Ark of the Covenant.

Coat of Arms

I don't see the Ark of the Covenant there, please explain.

Originally Posted by thelonious

This symbolism was probably introduced by the aforementioned Neo-Platonists. Both Plato and Plotinus elaborated on the dualistic nature of man and his environment, and it became a religious mystery among the ancient Magi, in the form of an antagonistic relationship between Ahura Mazda and Ahriman.

So masonry believes that we are here to dominate our environment and not to act in harmony with it?

Originally Posted by thelonious

However, it is not necessarily true that they increase proportionately. The Magian doctrine stated that good will eventually overcome evil. In Masonry, this is represented by the initiate, whose spiritual nature is to overcome his animal passions.

So the purpose of masonry is to become cold and unfeeling, detached from the things one feels passionate about? Why does an initiate need to overcopme these 'evil' feelings? Sounds like Catholic guilt trips to me...

[chicken]

So the purpose of masonry is to become cold and unfeeling, detached from the things one feels passionate about?

Depends what you got to use this new way of looking at things for? Good deeds or bad?

.....and this is what Tolle is spouting in his books - it is reversed. Read the thread in the other thread running alongside this....Plato was about the reversals - like relativism - good and evil, high, low and so on

chicken

[serpentoffire]

Originally Posted by thelonious

Yes, I've seen a couple of his YouTube videos, and have spoke to several Thelemites (both OTO and anti-OTO) about him.

Zagami briefly belonged to a small illegitimate branch-off of OTO called OTOA. It was founded by an expelled ex-member of OTO who lives in Chicago. Zagami was apparently expelled from this group, and has since made a big stink over it. He has never been a regular Mason or even a regular OTO member (all his certificates can be viewed online; notice all of them were signed by the same guy, the Chicago dude).

I don't know if you know anything about OTO and its splinter groups and politics, but that's a thread in itself.

I wrote to Leo to verify your version.

[thetonic]

QUESTION: How do you feel about the coming NEW WORLD ORDER?... Do you feel you will somehow be left alone because you are a mason?.. Will you accept a microchip implant?.. Will you accept a Real I.D. ?.. Do you believe in aliens or trans dimensional entities?.. What do you think of Ron Paul?

[thelonious]

Originally Posted by psychicdefender

But would it negate my free will? If I had made the 'mistake' of assuming that was what was required of me to get anywhere, it was never made plain that it was required of me, then surely I would have been acting of my own free will.

Most false assumptions would be cleared up previous to initiation when the candidate meets with the membership committee. The committee's responsibility is to outline the history and philosophy of Freemasonry, and to answer the candidate's questions. It is required that the candidate understand that he is not to seek initiation out of "mercenary motives", and that Freemasonry's purpose is to offer an enlightened and charitable outlook on life.

How would I have been conned? Everyone enters into masonry without the damndest idea what it provides.

I would have to disagree. Most candidates have studied Freemasonry previously, and have a general idea of what to expect. I had read probably over a dozen Masonic and anti-Masonic books before I applied for membership.

In my limited understanding and from what has been explained to me a 'Supreme Being' can be anything (generally a school of thought, for instance Philosophy) so how is masonry theistic?

It is theistic in that it requires belief in a Supreme Being, i.e., a Being (not school of thought) greater than ourselves. In Freemasonry, the terms "Freemasonry", "God", and "Great Architect of the Universe" are used interchangeably.

Furthermore, Lodge meetings are opened and closed in prayer, an invocation is offered in behalf of the candidate when he is initiated, and the Lodge is opened "in the name of God and the Holy Saints John". Freemasonry's official position is to promote "the Brotherhood of Man under the Fatherhood of God".

So basically masonry is just a society of philosophers using rituals most of them don't understand?

Originally, it was a society of philosophers using rituals they themselves created and understood well. Today, not so much. One of my own criticisms against Masonry is not against the institution, but against certain individual Masons. Unfortunately, most Masons are not philosophers or mystics or sages. You are certainly correct that most Masons don't understand the rituals; most belong to what we call "the Fork and Knife Degree", i.e., those Masons who join Masonry and come to meetings just so they can get out of the house a couple of times per month and have a good meal with friends. To them, Freemasonry is a social club.

However, to others, Freemasonry is an archive of the highest philosophical and spiritual truths, if one only devotes himself to seeking them.

I don't see the Ark of the Covenant there, please explain.

Sorry, I was referring to the Coat of Arms of the United Grand Lodge of England. You linked to the paradoxically-titles irregular Regular Grand Lodge of All England. None of the US Grand Lodges, nor the UGLE, recognize that organization as a legitimate Masonic body. Not being a member of their organization, I cannot speak for them.

The regular recognized body in the UK is the United Grand Lodge of England, whose website is here:

http://www.ugle.org.uk/

So masonry believes that we are here to dominate our environment and not to act in harmony with it?

I wouldn't say that all. Why would you have that idea?

So the purpose of masonry is to become cold and unfeeling, detached from the things one feels passionate about? Why does an initiate need to overcopme these 'evil' feelings? Sounds like Catholic guilt trips to me...

You may have misunderstood me. I feel passionate about a lot of things...including Masonry. From an occult viewpoint, certain passions can blind us, and are an enemy (the Satan analogy, "Satan" meaning "adversary").

It's not that passions are all bad, but that they are poorly handled, and can be overwhelming, especially for one seeking spiritual enlightment.

In the occult, a man ruled by passions is represented by the inverse pentagram. Each point on the pentagram represents an element, with the single point downward representing Spirit. The four material elements (earth, air, fire, water) are shown above it. Thus, the inverse pentagram represents Spirit dominated by matter. It resembles a goats head, and thus refers to Pan, who was partially animalistic.

The ancient goal of initiation is not to squash the human side of us, but to enlighten it.