The USSR under Stalin

[positive_forward]

Originally Posted by vegan_on_the_land

Poles did not kill Germans. Germans dressed as Poles attacked German border posts. Typical shabby Nazi trick, as Captain Mainwaring was fond of saying.

More nonsense. And you also believe the Reichstag fire was an inside job too (and any other lies - anti German propaganda) Churchill said we slaughtered the wrong pig. General Patton also realised the same. Hitler even offered to pull out of Poland to try make peace.

BTW would you like to read something by Churchill and a German Jew who both wrote about the reality of Communists (mostly Jews) trying to take over Germany pre war)? How about an American who wrote about ethnic Germans being killed in Poland pre war..or where they all liars too?

[dusthead]

Originally Posted by vegan_on_the_land

I thank Churchill for my existence in this world. And for stopping the Nazis from invading the UK. If he hadn't become PM in 1940 it is most likely we would have signed a peace treaty with the Nazis. And that would have allowed them to invade. I also thank all those who took part in the war against the Nazis and especially those who died, which is why I always attend the Remembrance Day and Armistice Day ceremonies.

I mean this with the greatest of respect.

Please look into the bombing of Dresden. It was an indefensible atrocity and Churchill authorized it. And that's coming from someone who really hates Hitler and finds Nazi-ism abhorrent.

There are no heroic leaders in global conflict - Churchill and Hitler sat on their arses in bunkers whilst ridiculous amounts of innocent people were sent to their deaths.

By all means remember the victims on both sides.

[vegan_on_the_land]

Originally Posted by dusthead

I mean this with the greatest of respect.

Please look into the bombing of Dresden. It was an indefensible atrocity and Churchill authorized it. And that's coming from someone who really hates Hitler and finds Nazi-ism abhorrent.

The bombing of Dresden was to aid the Soviets. And it did. It disrupted the rail traffic that was sending reinforcements and supplies to the Eastern Front. Yes, it was terrible but war is terrible. So were the bombings of Warsaw and other Polish towns when the Germans invaded Poland, the bombing of Guernica by the Nazis in the Spanish Civil War, and the bombings of many UK towns.

As I said, I am thankful that Churchill was willing to stand up to the Nazis. Others would have continued to appease them.

[kith]

Originally Posted by dusthead

I mean this with the greatest of respect.

Please look into the bombing of Dresden. It was an indefensible atrocity and Churchill authorized it. And that's coming from someone who really hates Hitler and finds Nazi-ism abhorrent.

There are no heroic leaders in global conflict - Churchill and Hitler sat on their arses in bunkers whilst ridiculous amounts of innocent people were sent to their deaths.

By all means remember the victims on both sides.

This is a brilliant post.

[positive_forward]

Originally Posted by vegan_on_the_land

The bombing of Dresden was to aid the Soviets. And it did. It disrupted the rail traffic that was sending reinforcements and supplies to the Eastern Front. Yes, it was terrible but war is terrible. So were the bombings of Warsaw and other Polish towns when the Germans invaded Poland, the bombing of Guernica by the Nazis in the Spanish Civil War, and the bombings of many UK towns.

As I said, I am thankful that Churchill was willing to stand up to the Nazis. Others would have continued to appease them.

More nonsense. The widespread bombings of Germany's roads and rail network

The same posters have a habit of posting pics of dead bodies and passing them off as murder victims when they actually died of typhus, or lack of food (due to the war). They're the pics and films you see of emaciated bodies being bulldozed into pits with captions like 6 million Jews gassed (there's the proof)

Food And medical supplies could not reach some camps due to destruction of railways and road and water pipes (due to allied bombings) lack of clean drinking water helped the spread of the deathly typhus.

Pics from other camps show healthy well fed people when the camps were liberated by allies - It proves they had enough food and medical supplies (some roads and railways hadn't been destroyed by bombing in the areas these camps where) so food and supplies got to them. Also clean water was available so the spread of typhus was stopped.

/////////////////////////////...................///////////////////////////////////


As part of a US War Crimes Investigation Team, Dr. Larson performed autopsies at Dachau and some twenty other German camps, examining on some days more than 100 corpses. After his grim work at Dachau, he was questioned for three days by US Army prosecutors. [1]

Dr. Larson's findings? In an 1980 newspaper interview he said: "What we've heard is that six million Jews were exterminated. Part of that is a hoax." [2] And what part was the hoax? Dr. Larson, who told his biographer that to his knowledge he "was the only forensic pathologist on duty in the entire European Theater" of Allied military operations, [3] confirmed that "never was a case of poison gas uncovered." [4]

(...)

ALLIED MILITARY POLICE HQ
VIENNA
1.10.1948
MEMO Nr:31/48

The Allied Committee of Inquiry has to date proven that no poison gas
was ever used to kill prisoners in the following concentration camps
Bergen_belsen, Buchenwald, Dachau, Flassenburg, Gross-Rosen,
Mathausen, and satellite camps Natzweiler, Neuengamme Niederhagen
(Wewelsburg, ravensbruck, Sachsenhausen, Stutthol, Thereselenstadt.

In all cases where gassings were alleged, it could be proven that
torture had been used to extract confessions and witnesses have lied.

Any former inmate who, during their debriefing continues to allege
that poison gas was used to murder people (in particular jews), are to
be reported to this office and if they insist on lying further, they
are to be charged with perjury.

Signed Major Müller
Commanding officer
Allied Military Police Vienna:

witnessed by
Lieutenant Lachout MP.
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showp...4&postcount=50

Read the rest of Tinyint's excellent researched post with official documents to back up his points..

[bikerdruid]

Originally Posted by bjornyvan

Jane

Why on earth do you want to make Stalin into a good guy? His ice-cold extermination of millions upon millions is thoroughly documented. Even the Jews and the communists admit that he slaughtered millions. It's impossible to deny.

Now I'm leaving this thread. It's sheer nonsense.

and this coming from one who claims hitler is a hero.

[positive_forward]

John Black, The Truth about the 1945 Bombing of Dresden

Dresden was a center of cultural and architectural wonders, including the famous Zwinger Museum and Palace and the cathedral, the Frauenkirche. There were no military objectives of any consequence in the city - its destruction could do nothing to weaken the Nazi war machine. U.S. and British air warfare had left Dresden intact until that point.

By February 1945, refugees fleeing westward before the onrushing Red Army had doubled Dresden's population. The Soviet military forces were poised to seize the city from the Nazis. It was at that moment that the military and political strategists of Britain and the United States decided to launch a terror bombing attack.

Winston Churchill was Britain's prime minister then. He was also responsible for war strategy, especially regarding its political aims. Churchill's goal in Europe was not only to destroy the military machine of Britain's imperialist rival - Germany - but to stop the advance of the Soviet Union. With the latter in mind, he decided to bomb Dresden...

Official figures issued by the new city government of Dresden, set up in the wake of the city's surrender to the Red Army, indicate that 35,000 people - mostly women, children and older people - suffocated in the firestorm or burned to death. Other studies give a much higher casualty figure for the attack. The presence of so many refugees made accurate counts difficult.

Apologists for the bombing point to Nazi Germany's own crimes. Following the war's end, however, the U.S. and Britain occupiers were quick to allow all but the top Nazi leaders to play a role in western Germany - to gain these criminals as allies against the USSR. To reach the same political goal, the U.S. and British rulers could easily sacrifice more than 35,000 non-combatants with the bombing of Dresden.

Members of the RAF bombing crews became increasingly concerned about the morality of creating firestorms. Roy Akehurst was a wireless operator who took part in the raid on Dresden.

It struck me at the time, the thought of the women and children down there. We seemed to fly for hours over a sheet of fire - a terrific red glow with thin haze over it. I found myself making comments to the crew: "Oh God, those poor people." It was completely uncalled for. You can't justify it.


(12) David Pedlow, letter to The Guardian (14th February, 2004)

My father was one of the "anonymous RAF meteorological officers (who) finally sealed Dresden's fate". A chronically short-sighted school teacher, he went into the Meteorological Office at the beginning of a war that he had hoped would not happen, but that he felt was utterly necessary. He knew he would be part of a process that sent young men out to risk their lives, and that inevitably - given the inadequacies of bomb-aiming and weather-forecasting techniques - would lead to a considerable number of civilian casualties.

The Dresden briefing was only one of many that he routinely attended, and even before the crews left the ground he was troubled because of one notable omission from the routine.

Normally, crews were given a strategic aiming point - anything from a major factory in the middle of nowhere to a small but significant railway junction within a built-up area. The smaller the aiming point and the heavier the concentration of housing around it, the greater would be the civilian casualties - but given that the strike was at a strategic aiming point those casualties could be justified.

Only at the Dresden briefing, my father told me, were the crews given no strategic aiming point. They were simply told that anywhere within the built-up area of the city would serve.

He felt that Dresden and its civilian population had been the prime target of the raid and that its destruction and their deaths served no strategic purpose, even in the widest terms; that this was a significant departure from accepting civilian deaths as a regrettable but inevitable consequence of the bomber war; and that he had been complicit in what was, at best, a very dubious operation.


) Winston Churchill, memorandum to Air Marshall Arthur Harris (28th March 1945)

It seems to me that the moment has come when the question of bombing of German cities simply for the sake of increasing the terror, should be reviewed. Otherwise we shall come into control of an utterly ruined land. We shall not, for instance, be able to get housing material out of Germany for our own needs because some temporary provision would have to be made for the Germans themselves. I feel the need for more precise concentration upon military objectives, such as oil and communications behind the immediate battle-zone, rather than on mere acts of terror and wanton destruction.

[jane_d]

BTW

About which the hell kind of preventive-war you all are talking here (I saw in some threads)? Where is the logic?

Do you know that those conspiracy theorists who blame Stalin in a conspiracy with the Nazis and that he did not act independently from this "cabal" (if follow to this version, but it was not so), blamed him in that he did not react on warnings about attack? And therefore he was accused that he betrayed us and intentionally did not lead the army of western districts on full alert! Stalin really did not believe to these reports for some time, but anyway, about 10 June it was known exactly that an attack will be ~ 20-24 June. And after 10 of June Stalin and General Staff honestly gave the order to the military command to bring the troops on the border in high alert. And Stalin did it not for a pre-emptive attack on Germany!

But the command of army in those districts had not fulfilled the task completely, which led to big casualties already in the first days of the war.

[jane_d]

Originally Posted by bikerdruid

and this coming from one who claims hitler is a hero.

Yeah, I was surprised too, when I saw his love to Hitler after

[kith]

Originally Posted by jane_d

Yeah, I was surprised too, when I saw his love to Hitler after

He was not on his own by any means but i am in agreement with Dusthead: Hitler, Churchill and Stalin deserve no thanks but instead they deserve to be remembered for what they were: killers.

[jane_d]

Originally Posted by kith

He was not on his own by any means but i am in agreement with Dusthead: Hitler, Churchill and Stalin deserve no thanks but instead they deserve to be remembered for what they were: killers.

Yeah, Stalin personally killed billion people You did not read what I wrote... You can read and appreciate the situation in our country before Stalin and when he came etc. Think what you want, anyway..

And how about killer of killers and torturers? I understand all this stuff about non-compliance, non-violent, peace and love but our country was not in that state when it yet works.

[kith]

Originally Posted by jane_d

Yeah, Stalin personally killed billion people You did not read what I wrote... You can read and appreciate the situation in our country before Stalin and when he came etc. Think what you want, anyway..

And how about killer of killers and torturers? I understand all this stuff about non-compliance, non-violent, peace and love but our country was not in that state when it yet works.

Nope Stalin did not deal with a difficult situation with anything like a human approach.

He was a tyant and a vicious paranoid psycopath.

Katyn massacre is one clear example as was the Ukranian Genocide.

[torus]

Originally Posted by positive_forward

Why no trials for mass murdering communists? This has often puzzled me.

Seems alleged crimes committed by Germans or Muslims only go to trial..Nuremberg et al.

And of course, one is free to deny Dresden etc. without fear of retribution. And that's the way it should be. Everybody knows that the courtroom is no place for opinions on history. Well, almost everybody knows. But those who hide behind denial laws do so because their morbid and paranoid reaction is proportionate to the lie that they're defending and promoting.

[dusthead]

Originally Posted by vegan_on_the_land

The bombing of Dresden was to aid the Soviets. And it did. It disrupted the rail traffic that was sending reinforcements and supplies to the Eastern Front. Yes, it was terrible but war is terrible. So were the bombings of Warsaw and other Polish towns when the Germans invaded Poland, the bombing of Guernica by the Nazis in the Spanish Civil War, and the bombings of many UK towns.

As I said, I am thankful that Churchill was willing to stand up to the Nazis. Others would have continued to appease them.

There is no justification for Dresden - It was a sad and horrible event. The bombing of Dresden was no better than any number of atrocities committed by Hitler.

Remember - I personally oppose Hitler and everything he stood for - But I'm not blind to other atrocities. An awful lot of innocent women and children were killed that day. The relatives of those victims have every right to hate Winston Churchill.

It was tit for tat - Two wrongs don't make a right.

[cyclops]

Originally Posted by positive_forward

More nonsense. And you also believe the Reichstag fire was an inside job too (and any other lies - anti German propaganda) Churchill said we slaughtered the wrong pig. General Patton also realised the same. Hitler even offered to pull out of Poland to try make peace.

Any sources for this?


For example The Rise And Fall Of The Third Reich by William L. Shirer clearly states that it is almost certain that the Reichstag fires where an inside job. This is by far one of the most detailed and comprehensive books about WWII ever written. Compiled mostly from secret Nazi documents, where almost no other scholar had access to.


As the documentary The Soviet Story clearly depicts, the Nazi's and the Commies where far more closely aligned than is commonly accepted. This documentary is based on declassified Russian material, and shows a whole new angle of the war. All three parties from WWII where funded from Wall Street, as prof. Anthony C. Sutton thoroughly documented in his books Wall Street And The Rise Of Hitler, Wall Street And The Bolshevik Revolution and Wall Street And FDR. The USSR couldn't finance its own country through its whole existence, and Weimar Germany was about the poorest country in the northern hemisphere... Doesn't ring a bell?

It was made to happen, as was clearly written about in the books of the Fabian Society years before, even mr. Icke talks about this. Dreamt up by the Anglo-American establishment, as all major wars in recent history are. This according to prof. Carroll Quigley, former historian to the Council on Foreign Relations. Read his book Tragedy & Hope and stop spreading bullshit and disinformation.. and please stop apologising for mass murderers and ashaming your parents and grandparents, who probably had to endure this terrible time... Mine did, and they roll around in their graves when I read all this nonsense in this topic...

[vegan_on_the_land]

Dresden was a major centre of the railway network. The bombing did cause chaos - as it was intended to do. It probably shortened the war by making things easier for the Soviets.

None of us were alive then. We have no idea what it was like to be involved in total war. The Nazis had shown what they did in occupied countries. It was imperative to defeat them as quickly and decisively as possible. Bombing Dresden helped to accomplish that.

Incidently, the Nazis gave false, high, figures for the casualties at Dresden but their supporters today complain about the initial wrong figure given for Auschwitz.

It can be argued that the Germans were close to defeat but they were still fighting. They were thought to be close to defeat a few weeks earlier when they launched the Ardennes Offensive (Battle of the Bulge). They were still dangerous and needed to be stopped completely. There is no nice way to fight a war.

[cyclops]

Originally Posted by vegan_on_the_land

There is no nice way to fight a war.

It was a total war on all sides, complete mayhem. Let it never happen again.....

[vancity eagle]

Originally Posted by jane_d

Yes, Joseph Stalin is one of the most slandered people in history.

Prehistory. Until the end of the 20th in the communist party's apparatus were many people of Trotsky and Zinoviev. And after Lenin's death there was a struggle for power between Trotsky and Stalin. Stalin won by complicated intra-party intrigues. But he still remained surrounded by zionist-masonic-jewish network. In 30th years, a destruction of Trotskyists in the Party apparatus began, and only to '37 Stalin managed to gain more power and to stop the genocide carried out by them (in fact, for a long time the power was theirs, and he was forced to be pretty careful). Those millions and millions who were brutally tortured and killed for all this time (and especially in the 20th years), were not destroyed by Stalin, but Trotskyites, and they were quite brazenly attributed to Stalin, what is contradicting to historical logic. And concentration camps were originally created by Zionists. Well, about all these horrors and atrocities you can read.

What happened under Stalin. I'll write what was opened when were opened archives.

Of course, the regime was also very heavy, but the time was very heavy and cruel, too. In 1931, Stalin said: "We are lagging behind the advanced countries on 50 - 100 years. We must cover this distance in 10 years. Either we will do it, or they will crush us. " After 10 years, Soviet Union was invaded by Nazi Germany and its allies. Soviet society was forced to make great efforts in the period 1930 - 1940 years in preparations for the defence in the war which cost to Soviet Union ~ 27 - 30 million lives.

In the labor camps were sent those who committed crimes (murder, theft, rape, etc.). There were also labor colonies, in which there was not such strict and supervisory regime, and in which were sent people with less serious crimes to work in factories or on the ground. Opened archives showed that in 1939 the total number of prisoners was ~ 2 million. 454 thousand of them were convicted for political crimes. In 1950 there were 578 thousand convicted for political crimes. Deaths in labor camps ranges from 5.2% in 1934 to 0.3% in 1953. Deaths in labor camps was associated with a general lack of resources in the community, particularly the lack of drugs needed to fight epidemics. When after Second World War antibiotics were invented and put into general, the situation has changed radically.

The maximum number of inmates for all this time (at least since 37-38-39) was 2.5 millions (not 40, not 60, not 100, it's all a lie)., ~ 2.4% of the total number of the adult population (it is less than the current number of inmates in United States now). This number ranged from year to year.

For 23 years from 1930 to 1953 to the death penalty was sentenced ~800 000 people (not millions, about which all writes). Also, not all those sentenced to death were actually executed, part of the death sentences were commuted to terms in labor camps. It is also important to distinguish between common criminals and counter-revolutionaries. Many of those sentenced to death committed violent crimes.

Were there innocent victims? Of course, there were and many, too.... But it was not Stalin's fault personally, but the traitors' and enemies in the party apparatus, as well as those who reported on someone.

"Stalin's purges" in 37-38-39 were related to the fact that in the country was preparing a counter-revolutionary conspiracy to commit a coup d'etat, in which the Soviet leadership should have been physically eliminated. The military side of this was a group of generals headed by marshal Tukhachevsky. Also, there was an agreement between Trotskyite opposition and Nazi Germany, according to which the vast territories, including Ukraine, have been ceded to Nazi Germany after the counter-revolutionary coup in the Soviet Union.

That were those with who fought Stalin in 37-38-39 years. The conspirators were sentenced to death as traitors. And these were people who are responsible for the real genocide ... If Trotskyists won, we would be destroyed physically and the whole history of our country and of the world would be different. Stalin saved Russia and the world, no less. He saved our country three times - from Trotsky's dream in which Russian people had to be the "fuel of the world revolution," in second time - from Hitler (although, of course, it were millions of people, who saved us), who sponsored by the same Rothschilds and other bankers who also sponsored Trotsky, and in the third time - by creating a nuclear shield - from the destruction of Britain and United States.

very interesting Jane D, I have always been curious about the whole issue of Russia. For me many things I read about constantly regarding Russia amongst truthers just doesn't add up IMO.

We know Wallstreet financed the BOlsheviks and the overthrow of the Csar which was a long time plan. We can relate this to the Washington financed gangs in the middle east attacking Libya and Syria, however on a much larger scale.

I have always asked about the conflict between Stalin and Trotsky. What was this all about. What were the Stalinist purges all about ? This couldn't just have been something trivial. I have always believed that Russia has had an internal struggle between Zionist and nationalist forces during this period, it seems you are confirming my suspicions.

I dont believe the numbers of dead attributed to Stalinist Russia or Maoist China. I'm not saying that these 2 were not necessarily tyrants, but I just believe the 10's of millions attributed to these 2 characters were highly exaggerated, just like the exaggerated atrocities of Hitler, and the exaggerated atrocities of all enemies of the zionists/elites.

Although the zionists at the very least attempted to control both Russia and China, I just dont believe they have as much power over Russia and China as we are led to believe by many conspiracy theorists.

Regarding Stalin being a Jew (and im not arguing one way or another) , I would like to say this

EVERY SINGLE ENEMY of international zionism has at one point been accused of either being a Jew, or collaborating with them. This list includes

Hitler
Stalin
Gaddafi
Yasser Arafat
Che Guevara
Ahmedinejad

I'm sure there are many more. The source of these accusations are often Jewish themselves. Not saying that certain people are not Jewish, but that there is probably a lot of zionist disinformation put out there to discredit sincere people.


Now with the cold war. The US and its allies were involved in many covert and overt means to bring down the USSR. Why is this ? They have been funding opposition groups, planting spies and double agents, sabotaging the USSR. Why would this be so ? It seems in 1991, they fiinally infiltrated the USSR enough to bring the regime down, in order for zionists to move in and buy up Russian assets and businesses for pennies on the dollar. We saw the breakup of USSR and the balkanization of it with it broken into many smaller states like (Ukraine,Belarus,Moldova,Georgia,Kasakstan,Uzbekis tan,turkmenistan) This is similar to the balkanization of Yugoslavia, the attempted breakup of the USA in civil war etc. These smaller states are easier to manage, corrupt, and infiltrate. This to me does not seem like a nation that was controlled by the elites. It was brought down by the elites, only for the Jewish criminals to move in and set up shop. It seems with Putin, that Russia is countering this defeat of 1991 and becomming a legitimate oppositon yet again.

To me Russia seems to be a see saw which goes back and forth from elite/zionist control to more nationalist control since 1917. Whereas the other power block America was zionist all the way through , although they as well had their moments of fighting for control during the civil war, and the establishment and dismantling of 2 or 3 different private banks.


Jane D in a nutshell are you saying that Stalin was fighting off this zionist faction within Russia who were perpetrating genocide, which was later attributed to him.

What good sources of this info would you recommend, because I find this a very interesting topic, and I think it could be one of the most misunderstood.

[vancity eagle]

I would also like to add, that I see world events, wars, and politics almost like a betting game between elites. They can finance people like Hitler, Stalin, Al Qaeda, but they do not necessarily always have full control of this creation. Sometimes the creation, like Frankenstein can move beyond their control, and they may have to stop, control or destroy their creation. It is a psycopathic game that the elites play.

There have been many instances througout history of the elites financing somebody to power, only for that person to turn on the elites, and then be taken out. Off the top of my head we can most likely say this about

Hitler
Saddam Hussein
Stalin
Noriega
Idi Amin
JFK
Mugabe

Again I am sure there are many more

[dusthead]

Originally Posted by vegan_on_the_land

Dresden was a major centre of the railway network. The bombing did cause chaos - as it was intended to do. It probably shortened the war by making things easier for the Soviets.

None of us were alive then. We have no idea what it was like to be involved in total war. The Nazis had shown what they did in occupied countries. It was imperative to defeat them as quickly and decisively as possible. Bombing Dresden helped to accomplish that.

Incidently, the Nazis gave false, high, figures for the casualties at Dresden but their supporters today complain about the initial wrong figure given for Auschwitz.

It can be argued that the Germans were close to defeat but they were still fighting. They were thought to be close to defeat a few weeks earlier when they launched the Ardennes Offensive (Battle of the Bulge). They were still dangerous and needed to be stopped completely. There is no nice way to fight a war.

I am trying to think of another way of putting this across.

It doesn't matter what ideologies were at stake - Whether anyone was fighting against Nazism, or whether their ultimate goal is the establishment of world peace. If someone has to kill huge amounts of civilians to attain those goals, then there is absolutely no point in any of it.

Churchill stopped Hitler killing more innocent people - By killing more innocent people! That is hypocritical, self defeating and pointless.

The problem in war is that we are encouraged to take sides - See also - Tony Blair and George Bush vs the Evil Turban Men.

Don't let anyone convince you that killing innocent people can ever be a good thing unless you are willing to have your family killed for a good cause.