Free energy on display in dublin

[h2pogo]

Have steorn done it this time..they have or claim to have a overunity machine on display in dublin untill 23dec..

http://www.steorn.com/

I really hope this one works..it appears to be.

http://www.livestream.com/steorn

[griswald]

I hope it gets out there mainstream before its killed off. I,ll have to go and see that. Or maybe its just a transition to a new form of energy, with all the costs involved, still going to the major power brokers.

griswald

[2013]

It's looking good ,but cant get live feed says offline .:D

[h2pogo]

It's looking good ,but cant get live feed says offline .:D

may be they were changing the batteries :D
live stream link is working now..

[fennellal]

A its a load of crap as a constant Energy source is needed to power the device for it to power something else, thus making it nothing more than an amplifier or working/moving Capacitor, I would only give this Technology Credence it the units can power itself and continually power other devices in a network configuration such as a home or office .

This Technology will never be mainstream as it will never gain enough current for our electronic needs of today, even struggling technology in privately owned wind generators still need a viable source of electricity from the national grid to continually power these peoples homes.

The question that should be asked is why on earth has the hydrogen fuel cell not been exploited for domestic & indeed main stream car manufacturer & the simple answer is everyone will no long need expensive electricity or fossil fuels from the nation grid or oil fields across our planet that fund Governments, Wars & other questionable activity's.

This is just a Mikey Mouse energy source shunned by energy providers, laughed by most who know there are far cleaner cheaper ways of developing energy for the entire planet, but as long as we have oil, Goverments will insist you pay a premium in taxation every time you fill up your car or pay for your electricity ever month.

It would not be the same for Governments taxing or controlling the cost of hydrogen to run your car or indeed power your home seeing as hydrogen is the most abundant chemical element there is.

[dreamweaver]

They seem a bit more promising than some of the other efforts I've seen. At least they're letting (selected) scientists and engineers have a look, which is more than most previous free energy claimants did.

[2013]

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.
has anyone heard anymore on this device . it has been online and the news for a while now and claims to run a household . The video is from sky news :D

[soxism]

Anyone forget about Nikola Tesla, and His work....? ..as the tail goes we was developing a system to provide free entergy for everyone, biased on the Electric universe model.

[freckles]

Here is the Steorn device showing that an Orbo electromagnetic interaction experiences no back EMF

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

Went to see the display, it was amazing to say the least, a very simple device but I would love if someone could explain to me how the magnetic poles of the magnet pairs work :confused:

It would also be great to see it powering something or working without a battery!

[biblegirl]

A its a load of crap as a constant Energy source is needed to power the device for it to power something else, thus making it nothing more than an amplifier or working/moving Capacitor, I would only give this Technology Credence it the units can power itself and continually power other devices in a network configuration such as a home or office .

This Technology will never be mainstream as it will never gain enough current for our electronic needs of today, even struggling technology in privately owned wind generators still need a viable source of electricity from the national grid to continually power these peoples homes.

The question that should be asked is why on earth has the hydrogen fuel cell not been exploited for domestic & indeed main stream car manufacturer & the simple answer is everyone will no long need expensive electricity or fossil fuels from the nation grid or oil fields across our planet that fund Governments, Wars & other questionable activity's.

This is just a Mikey Mouse energy source shunned by energy providers, laughed by most who know there are far cleaner cheaper ways of developing energy for the entire planet, but as long as we have oil, Goverments will insist you pay a premium in taxation every time you fill up your car or pay for your electricity ever month.

It would not be the same for Governments taxing or controlling the cost of hydrogen to run your car or indeed power your home seeing as hydrogen is the most abundant chemical element there is.

hydrogen is boring :p

ambient energies are abundant and have been harnessed by humans since the beginning of time...but now we have mainstream science and government assuring us this energy doesn't exist :rolleyes:...i don't think this has to do with oil so much as the suppression of knowledge of dimensional reality

[foobar]

The Steorn device is a fraud. They're claiming that magnets provide a free source of energy. It's nonsense. All they have is a Heath-Robinson mechanical system with magnets that they drive around with an external power source.

[h2pogo]

The Steorn device is a fraud. They're claiming that magnets provide a free source of energy. It's nonsense. All they have is a Heath-Robinson mechanical system with magnets that they drive around with an external power source.

they do also have a generator replenishing the external power source..so may be it aint a fraud..

[foobar]

Their explanation of how it works doesn't make any sense physically. This is a classic 'perpetual motion' con.

[tinyint]

A good presentation on vacuum field energy here

vacuum field energy

Unfortunately, it's in german and I don't know if there will be an english subtitled one out.

[h2pogo]

the latest explination on how this works.
SteornOfficial's Channel - YouTube

[foobar]

they do also have a generator replenishing the external power source..so may be it aint a fraud..

And how do you know that the generator replenishing the external power source is putting in more than it takes ?

Because you saw a youtube ?

It's an absurd proposition.

[h2pogo]

And how do you know that the generator replenishing the external power source is putting in more than it takes ?

Because you saw a youtube ?

It's an absurd proposition.

they have taken away the reaction to the action.there is no back emf..
i actually went to the demo and had an engineer explain to me..and had a very close up look at how it works.i also know one of the developers..
can you explain why you believe its an absurd proposition?

[aitch]

they have taken away the reaction to the action.there is no back emf..
i actually went to the demo and had an engineer explain to me..and had a very close up look at how it works.i also know one of the developers..
can you explain why you believe its an absurd proposition?You know the developers ?? :)

What does he say about commercialising the technology and what Steorn's plans are going forward ?? :confused:

[h2pogo]

You know the developers ?? :)

What does he say about commercialising the technology and what Steorn's plans are going forward ?? :confused:

I think they will have licenses available soon for any one who wants to commercialize.all is here http://www.steorn.com/orbo/licensing/
the last parts of the latest videos on the website explain a fair bit.
i know one of the developers forum members and had the luck to meet one of the engineers in dublin.

steorns latest

http://www.steorn.com/

[foobar]

they have taken away the reaction to the action.there is no back emf..

They trot out this line all the time, and it sounds all 'sciencey', doesn't it ?

But it doesn't mean anything. They haven't found a way of having the system produce more energy than is put in. They've given an oscilloscope demo and said, 'no back EMF, that means we get energy from nowhere!'.


i actually went to the demo and had an engineer explain to me..and had a very close up look at how it works.i also know one of the developers..
can you explain why you believe its an absurd proposition?

Yes, because they claim to be obtaining energy from nowhere.

[foobar]

I think they will have licenses available soon for any one who wants to commercialize.all is here http://www.steorn.com/orbo/licensing/
the last parts of the latest videos on the website explain a fair bit.
i know one of the developers forum members and had the luck to meet one of the engineers in dublin.

steorns latest

http://www.steorn.com/

The fact that they are marketing home experiment kits rather than selling a working power source themselves should speak volumes about whether or not this actually works.

Trevor Bayliss was incorrectly told his wind-up radios would run out of energy too quickly to be useful. Did he waste years doing youtube demos and offering to sell you an experiment kit so you could 'prove to yourself that his idea worked?'

No, he just produced a working clockwork radio and said 'see it works, buy them!' and then sat back safely in the knowledge that the engineering professor who told him it would run down too fast had got his calculations wrong.

Steorn can't do that because they're claiming, in effect, to violate fundamental laws of thermodynamics with a simple electro-mechanical device. They can't, and that's why they can't actually generate more energy than is put in to one of their device and sell the resulting power to the national grid. It's nuts. Classic perpetual motion scam.

[h2pogo]

The fact that they are marketing home experiment kits rather than selling a working power source themselves should speak volumes about whether or not this actually works.

Trevor Bayliss was incorrectly told his wind-up radios would run out of energy too quickly to be useful. Did he waste years doing youtube demos and offering to sell you an experiment kit so you could 'prove to yourself that his idea worked?'

No, he just produced a working clockwork radio and said 'see it works, buy them!' and then sat back safely in the knowledge that the engineering professor who told him it would run down too fast had got his calculations wrong.

Steorn can't do that because they're claiming, in effect, to violate fundamental laws of thermodynamics with a simple electro-mechanical device. They can't, and that's why they can't actually generate more energy than is put in to one of their device and sell the resulting power to the national grid. It's nuts. Classic perpetual motion scam.

Steorn are welcoming people to bring their own testing equipment to the next demo to test for themselves.

[griswald]

The fact that they are marketing home experiment kits rather than selling a working power source themselves should speak volumes about whether or not this actually works.

Trevor Bayliss was incorrectly told his wind-up radios would run out of energy too quickly to be useful. Did he waste years doing youtube demos and offering to sell you an experiment kit so you could 'prove to yourself that his idea worked?'

No, he just produced a working clockwork radio and said 'see it works, buy them!' and then sat back safely in the knowledge that the engineering professor who told him it would run down too fast had got his calculations wrong.

Steorn can't do that because they're claiming, in effect, to violate fundamental laws of thermodynamics with a simple electro-mechanical device. They can't, and that's why they can't actually generate more energy than is put in to one of their device and sell the resulting power to the national grid. It's nuts. Classic perpetual motion scam.

If you can publicly disprove what they are claiming. Dont waste your energy blowing your stack here....get your arse in to Dublin, and prove them wrong in public, and make a name for your self. The oil companies will love you, and the energy companies will hail you as a hero, and no doubt you will become a wealthy man.

And if you cant disprove them in public............maybe that proves something else entirely:rolleyes:

griswald

[foobar]

If you can publicly disprove what they are claiming. Dont waste your energy blowing your stack here....get your arse in to Dublin, and prove them wrong in public, and make a name for your self. The oil companies will love you, and the energy companies will hail you as a hero, and no doubt you will become a wealthy man.

And if you cant disprove them in public............maybe that proves something else entirely:rolleyes:

griswald

I don't think you understand. Nobody outside conspiracy websites takes this seriously. Oil companies don't care because they know it's insane. They're not hostile to it. They're not planning in secret to have it debunked. They simply don't care because it's obviously nuts. Nobody would become wealthy for proving a little Irish company's touted perpetual motion machine was, in fact, silly deluded bunk.

The onus of proof is on the person making the extraordinary claim. Where is the Steorn generator ?

[h2pogo]

The onus of proof is on the person making the extraordinary claim. Where is the Steorn generator ?

er its in dublin..go along with a multimeter..

[griswald]

I don't think you understand. Nobody outside conspiracy websites takes this seriously. Oil companies don't care because they know it's insane. They're not hostile to it. They're not planning in secret to have it debunked. They simply don't care because it's obviously nuts. Nobody would become wealthy for proving a little Irish company's touted perpetual motion machine was, in fact, silly deluded bunk.

The onus of proof is on the person making the extraordinary claim. Where is the Steorn generator ?

So you are quite happy to spend your time here, with a load of nutters:p

Rather than going to Dublin to prove them wrong yourself. If you are convinced its rubbish, get there and prove it.

griswald

[tabea_blumenschein]

An "over-unity" device -- if it were possible to build one in the first place -- wouldn't need a battery, and it would be able to provide power to an external component continuously without running down.

Ditch the battery, connect the device to a light bulb, and let's see how long it can continue to provide power.

When Steorn does that, then we'll talk. Not before.

When P.T. Barnum said, "There's a sucker born every minute", he could well have been talking about "free-energy" claims.

[h2pogo]

An "over-unity" device -- if it were possible to build one in the first place -- wouldn't need a battery, and it would be able to provide power to an external component continuously without running down.

Ditch the battery, connect the device to a light bulb, and let's see how long it can continue to provide power.

When Steorn does that, then we'll talk. Not before.

When P.T. Barnum said, "There's a sucker born every minute", he could well have been talking about "free-energy" claims.

it needs power to ignite the coils..its claimed to be overunity not perpetual motion.
there is a sucker born every day that believes the laws of thermodynamics are the only laws that govern physics..

[foobar]

it needs power to ignite the coils..its claimed to be overunity not perpetual motion.

The claims about back EMF being eliminated allowing it to produce more energy than put in are perpetual motion claims.

It can't keep itself running without an external source and have power left to spare. That means it's not an overunity device.

[foobar]

So you are quite happy to spend your time here, with a load of nutters:p

Rather than going to Dublin to prove them wrong yourself. If you are convinced its rubbish, get there and prove it.

griswald

I'm not going to waste my time and money flying around the world demonstrating that nutters are in fact nuts.

When you claim to have invented something the onus is on you to demonstrate that it works if you want it to be taken seriously. Steorn have a Heath-Robinson little electromechanical device that they claim produces more energy than is put into it. Except they can't do away with the external power source and have it produce more energy than it takes to keep it running.

Steorn themselves appointed 22 independent experts to investigate whether free energy was being produced, and after 2 years their answer was a resounding, unanimous 'no, there is no free energy being produced'.

http://stjury.ning.com/forum/topics/jury-announcement

What earthly reason would anybody now have for believing their claims that they'd invented an overunity device?

This is just another silly free energy scam that's managed to take in some credulous people.

[h2pogo]

The claims about back EMF being eliminated allowing it to produce more energy than put in are perpetual motion claims.

It can't keep itself running without an external source and have power left to spare. That means it's not an overunity device.

it does need to be energized with an external source..i thought perpetual motion was when it didnt need an external source:confused:

[foobar]

it does need to be energized with an external source..i thought perpetual motion was when it didnt need an external source:confused:

Some things to remember :-

i) Perpetual motion that requires no external source doesn't exist. All proposed perpetual motion devices require energy input allegedly 'just to get them started'.

ii) When analysed in depth by people who know what they're doing, The amount of energy put in 'just to start it up' turns out to be more than the device ever outputs. That's exactly what was found to be the case with Steorn's Orbo. It should come as no surprise really. Nobody's going to discover some amazing energy source messing about with some mechanical arrangement of household magnets.

iii) We're now in the final stage where the 'inventors' and a remnant credulous section of the public who just desperately want free energy to exist are now making excuses. This could carry on for years, with most people with any background in hard sciences or engineering paying less and less attention to them. But at no point will they actually create a working generator producing energy they can sell to the national grid at a profit.

The folks at Steorn have come up with an interesting twist on this oft repeated story by offering to sell 'experimental kits'. People will buy them thinking that they're part of some great grass roots free-energy revolution, and democratizing science away from stuffy, arrogant 'gate-keepers'. But in reality, this is actually just a way of making money from people without having to actually generate surplus energy themselves. It's quite likely that Steorn's proprietor is quite intelligent enough to know that this orbo junk doesn't really work, and is just willingly conning people out of money.

The 'stuffy arrogant gatekeepers' who have a key role in many 'free energy is being covered up' delusions, and put this stuff down or ignore it, aren't doing so because some oil company slush fund is paying them to prevent the masses getting access to free energy. They do it because they know more about physics and engineering than the average person, having studied them for years, and they know that Steorn are talking rubbish. Like I said, the vast majority won't even make comment on Steorn.

Not because they received some secret memo to cover up Steorn, but because if anybody mentioned it to them, or they stumbled across it on the web, they'd just groan with frustration and mumble something like 'not this crap again. when will people learn?' before moving on to something that isn't a complete waste of their time.

[h2pogo]

Some things to remember :-

i) Perpetual motion that requires no external source doesn't exist. All proposed perpetual motion devices require energy input allegedly 'just to get them started'.

ii) When analysed in depth by people who know what they're doing, The amount of energy put in 'just to start it up' turns out to be more than the device ever outputs. That's exactly what was found to be the case with Steorn's Orbo. It should come as no surprise really. Nobody's going to discover some amazing energy source messing about with some mechanical arrangement of household magnets.

iii) We're now in the final stage where the 'inventors' and a remnant credulous section of the public who just desperately want free energy to exist are now making excuses. This could carry on for years, with most people with any background in hard sciences or engineering paying less and less attention to them. But at no point will they actually create a working generator producing energy they can sell to the national grid at a profit.

The folks at Steorn have come up with an interesting twist on this oft repeated story by offering to sell 'experimental kits'. People will buy them thinking that they're part of some great grass roots free-energy revolution, and democratizing science away from stuffy, arrogant 'gate-keepers'. But in reality, this is actually just a way of making money from people without having to actually generate surplus energy themselves. It's quite likely that Steorn's proprietor is quite intelligent enough to know that this orbo junk doesn't really work, and is just willingly conning people out of money.

The 'stuffy arrogant gatekeepers' who have a key role in many 'free energy is being covered up' delusions, and put this stuff down or ignore it, aren't doing so because some oil company slush fund is paying them to prevent the masses getting access to free energy. They do it because they know more about physics and engineering than the average person, having studied them for years, and they know that Steorn are talking rubbish. Like I said, the vast majority won't even make comment on Steorn.

Not because they received some secret memo to cover up Steorn, but because if anybody mentioned it to them, or they stumbled across it on the web, they'd just groan with frustration and mumble something like 'not this crap again. when will people learn?' before moving on to something that isn't a complete waste of their time.

this is a paradigm tesla was up against..he proved there are laws todo with resonant frequencies that surpassed the laws of thermodynamics..
I hope the next video steorn make will prove you wrong..

[theodoric]

E=MCsquared

[foobar]

this is a paradigm tesla was up against..he proved there are laws todo with resonant frequencies that surpassed the laws of thermodynamics..

No he didn't. He didn't produce any free energy, or claim to do so. He produced a means of wirelessly transmitting energy from a finite source, not a means of creating energy 'for free'.


I hope the next video steorn make will prove you wrong..

Don't hold your breath. Would you like to place wager ?

[foobar]

E=MCsquared

Are you suggesting that Steorn are converting matter into energy with some low-powered rotating magnets?

[griswald]

Orbo Technology Update

The Final Demo:
Proving Overunity

Steorn is pleased to announce that the final pre-launch demonstration of its Orbo technology, “Proving Overunity” will take place at 1600 GMT on Saturday January 30th.

Steorn invites you to view the demonstration streamed live at www.steorn.com or attend in person at the Waterways Ireland Visitor Centre, Grand Canal Dock, Dublin 4, Ireland.

Directions: http://www.steorn.com/demo/

Description:

Sean McCarthy, CEO of Steorn, will demonstrate and prove that Orbo is an overunity technology.

Who should attend:

Anyone interested in understanding Orbo Technology or taking up an Orbo Technology Developer License.


griswald

[h2pogo]

No he didn't. He didn't produce any free energy, or claim to do so. He produced a means of wirelessly transmitting energy from a finite source, not a means of creating energy 'for free'.

It was claimed to be over unity..which is pretty much the same thing..

[foobar]

It was claimed to be over unity..which is pretty much the same thing..

Not by Tesla it wasn't. You've picked this up from a fringe 'free power' website written by people who don't understand basic concepts of electromagnetism.

Something that transmits power by induction is no more an 'overunity' device than any other radio transmitter.

[foobar]

griswald

He's already had 22 scientists study it for 2 years to tell him 'no, it doesn't work'. Nobody with half a brain is going to be convinced by a presentation over webcam done using Steorn's equipment.

[h2pogo]

Not by Tesla it wasn't. You've picked this up from a fringe 'free power' website written by people who don't understand basic concepts of electromagnetism.

Something that transmits power by induction is no more an 'overunity' device than any other radio transmitter.

i think i heard it from a speech..made by tesla..

[h2pogo]

He's already had 22 scientists study it for 2 years to tell him 'no, it doesn't work'. Nobody with half a brain is going to be convinced by a presentation over webcam done using Steorn's equipment.

Thats why they are encouraging ppl to bring their own test equipment.

[foobar]

i think i heard it from a speech..made by tesla..

Show me the text of the speech.

[foobar]

Thats why they are encouraging ppl to bring their own test equipment.

What do you think the level of understanding of experimental physics is going to be of most of the attendees, and what kind of equipment do you think they're going to bring ?

Uri Geller used to tell people they could test his claims in person.

[griswald]

He's already had 22 scientists study it for 2 years to tell him 'no, it doesn't work'. Nobody with half a brain is going to be convinced by a presentation over webcam done using Steorn's equipment.


Steorn invites you to view the demonstration streamed live at www.steorn.com or attend in person at the Waterways Ireland Visitor Centre, Grand Canal Dock, Dublin 4, Ireland


You maybe overlooked that bit;)

griswald

[foobar]

Anyone forget about Nikola Tesla, and His work....? ..as the tail goes we was developing a system to provide free entergy for everyone, biased on the Electric universe model.

No he wasn't. He was developing a system that allowed him to transmit energy produced by ordinary means via induction instead of via cables.

[foobar]

Steorn invites you to view the demonstration streamed live at www.steorn.com or attend in person at the Waterways Ireland Visitor Centre, Grand Canal Dock, Dublin 4, Ireland


You maybe overlooked that bit;)

griswald

No, I didn't overlook the fact that Steorn, having given up trying to persuade real scientists to endorse their nonsense (or try and produce a working generator which produces energy they could sell to the national grid) have taken to trying to raise money by getting the credulous to buy 'experiment kits' at live presentations. I know that the Irish economy is tough at the moment. Bloke has to make a living and all that.

Guess what, there's a teenager in <pick American city of your choice> who think they're a vampire/werewolf/alien hybrid. I suppose you think people should either fly out to inspect them in person or accept their claims uncritically too?

You're either a Steorn advertising bot, in which case you probably ought to be paying the owner of the site for this, or a raving idiot.

[pi3141]

Sorry for getting into this thread so late but here's some opinions.

Soxism
Anyone forget about Nikola Tesla, and His work....? ..as the tail goes we was developing a system to provide free entergy for everyone, biased on the Electric universe model.

I believe Tesla was onto something there. I could not work it out until I heard about the Schuman Resonance - As I understand it, a cavity in the ionsphere that contains billions of watts of energy. I believe that Tesla was attempting to influence the cavity and make it vibrate at a known frequency. Then we could all tune to that frequency and receive free energy. The energy in the cavity being replenished by the universe as per the electric universe theory you mentioned. Thats just my opinion.


Freckles
Went to see the display, it was amazing to say the least..


Will you be going back to see it or the demonstration. Be interesting to have a first hand follow up account of it.


Biblegirl
ambient energies are abundant and have been harnessed by humans since the beginning of time


Don't know why we aren't doing it now - probably due to Westinghouse thinking that if its abundant and anyone can tap into it where do you put the meter. As he stated of Tesla's attempts of the system mentioned above by Soxism


foobar
Their explanation of how it works doesn't make any sense physically


It does too me, a typical magnet wheel will always find equilibrium and eventually stop. Find a way to break the equilibrium and you've cracked it. From the Steorn that seems to me what they are saying they have done.


foobar
Steorn can't do that because they're claiming, in effect, to violate fundamental laws of thermodynamics with a simple electro-mechanical device


I don't think they are as I stated above, they think they have found a way to break the equilibrium and keep the wheel turning. if they have it may not neccessarily break the law of thermodynamics. Certainly Dr Adams who was the head of the IEEE New Zealand branch thought he had done it.


foobar
Nobody outside conspiracy websites takes this seriously.


Some scientists do. We can only hope they find a way.


h2pogo
i thought perpetual motion was when it didnt need an external source


Not neccessarily. What about mechanical perpetual motion, a magnetic wheel that continues to spin etc. If it does not require power to run it would not need an external source.


foobar
Some things to remember :-

All proposed perpetual motion devices require energy input allegedly 'just to get them started'


Not neccessarily what about the magnetic wheel proposed by some monk back in the 1200's (can't remember his name) the only external source his required was a push. It didn't work but you see my point. Doesn't have to be electrical.


foobar
He produced a means of wirelessly transmitting energy from a finite source, not a means of creating energy 'for free'.


That was not his only invention or design he was working on - there were others. But your correct, Tesla did not state he was working on a machine that created free energy, merely trying to 'attach a wheel to nature' to provide and energy source.


I've already used this quote once tonight but here it is again -

"The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time." F Scott Fitzgerald

[foobar]

It does too me, a typical magnet wheel will always find equilibrium and eventually stop. Find a way to break the equilibrium and you've cracked it.

No, this doesn't make any sense physically. Where does the energy come from to produce the motion ? Are you claiming that the magnets themselves are a source of infinite energy ?


From the Steorn that seems to me what they are saying they have done.

Yes, and they're either lying through their teeth in the hope people will buy their experiment kits, or just hopelessly deluded about very basic physics. My guess is the former, because their business strategy seems to indicate that they know they can't really generate power, so they're just trying to flog gizmos to 'free energy' enthusiasts.


I don't think they are as I stated above, they think they have found a way to break the equilibrium and keep the wheel turning.

Yes it would. Where does the energy come from to produce that motion ?

[pi3141]

No, this doesn't make any sense physically. Where does the energy come from to produce the motion ?

Give it a push with your hand. A magnet wheel works by attracting and repelling so once started it will run, but eventually it will find equilibrium as and the wheel will slow and stop. Momentarily break the equilibrium at the critical point and theoretically it will continue to run? This does not need to be overunity or free energy, a system powered by batteries if neccessary - not much point to it if does no work. Its the principle I'm illustrating.


Are you claiming that the magnets themselves are a source of infinite energy ?

No.


Where does the energy come from to produce that motion ?

Initially? As stated previously, give it a push with your hand.

[foobar]

Give it a push with your hand. A magnet wheel works by attracting and repelling so once started it will run, but eventually it will find equilibrium as and the wheel will slow and stop.

It would slow and stop due to friction regardless of any magnetic forces. The finite amount of energy you gave it with your hand will be expended overcoming friction. That's why a bicycle wheel or child's spinning top doesn't spin forever when you turn it with your hand.


Momentarily break the equilibrium at the critical point and theoretically it will continue to run?

No, it won't, unless you keep putting more energy into the system, which is what Steorn do in their demos.


Initially? As stated previously, give it a push with your hand.

Finite energy in, finite energy out. The finite energy you can get out for any useful work (like generating electricity) will be less than than the finite amount transferred by the push with the hand, because there is no such thing as a perfectly efficient machine, so you'll lose some to friction etc..

[pi3141]

It would slow and stop due to friction regardless of any magnetic forces. The finite amount of energy you gave it with your hand will be expended overcoming friction. That's why a bicycle wheel or child's spinning top doesn't spin forever when you turn it with your hand.

Yes, but not if the magnetic forces are greater than the frictional forces and you have broken the equilibrium by applying energy at critical point. I'm not, in this model, claiming you get more energy out. Merely stating it is possible to keep the wheel spinning



No, it won't, unless you keep putting more energy into the system, which is what Steorn do in their demos.

Yes, as stated above.



Finite energy in, finite energy out. The finite energy you can get out for any useful work (like generating electricity) will be less than than the finite amount transferred by the push with the hand, because there is no such thing as a perfectly efficient machine, so you'll lose some to friction etc..

Yes, as previously stated. But if you are not generating power then there is no energy out and no extra frictional losses caused by a generator.

Are you saying it is impossible to keep a magnet wheel spinning by applying energy?

[pi3141]

For anyone that is interested this or something similar has been done before by Dr Adams in new Zealand -

Dr Robert Adams, Doctor of Science (Hon), Founder of the New Zealand Section of the Institute of Electricial and Electronic Engineers Inc., New York (I.E.E.E) 29.5.1968

1969 - Invented the Adams Switched Reluctance Motor Generator
1975 - Discoverer of the Impulse method of charging batteries
1993 - Discovered a procedure to engineer magnetic polarity reversal
1995 - Invented the Adams Super Power Four Pole Permanent Magnet
1996 - Invented the Mark 024 Thermo Switched Reluctance Motor which resulted in the discovery of anomalous unforseen massive heat energy in addition to electric power generation

Wiki link - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adams_motor

In 1969, Robert George Adams (of New Zealand 1920-2006) developed what became known as the "Adams Switched Reluctance Pulsed DC Permanent Magnet Motor Generator". (The terminology is idiosyncratic, because the design is not that of a traditional switched reluctance motor.) Reluctance is the measure of the opposition to magnetic flux, analogous to electric resistance. In the description of the motor's operation developed by Harold Aspden Ph.D, pulsing the stators electrically is said to switch the reluctance or opposition to the rotor magnets.

Before he died, as he was unable to put the device into commercial use, he bequeathed his design to the world allowing anyone to use it although the patent had already lapsed into the public domain, making it non patentable.

If anyone can explain why his invention was a fraud or what his mistakes were I would (sincerely) be very interested to hear it.

Also, I assume that any argument used to discredit the Adams motor would be applicable to the Steorn motor hence its relevance to this thread.

[pi3141]

I would also like to add that if the Steorn technology is based on the Adams motor principle then that would explain why they are offering kits and licences as the patent has already lapsed into the public domain and Steorn would not be able to patent the device.

[pi3141]

For further reading on the Steorn technology please see JL Naudins website where as of 26/12/2009 he begun a project to replicate the device.

Link - http://jnaudin.free.fr/steorn/indexen.htm

His summary of the device


To summarize, we have a "non-reciprocal" and fully asymmetrical system. There is no counter electromotive force (back-emf) in the toroidal coils of the stator produced by the rotation of the rotor. The current required to get the temporary depolarization of the magnetic domains of the ferrite is fully independent of the mechanical torque produced on the motor shaft.

[freckles]

..........

Will you be going back to see it or the demonstration. Be interesting to have a first hand follow up account of it.

.......

I've already used this quote once tonight but here it is again -

"The test of a first-rate intelligence is the ability to hold two opposed ideas in the mind at the same time." F Scott Fitzgerald

Yes, I am hoping to go up Saturday to see the final demo.

I really hope they can prove the sceptics wrong but it might be slow work. Its all going in the right direction, thats the main thing :)

Will report back with my extensive in-depth knowledge of electro magnetic engineering ;) :D

[pi3141]

Yes, I am hoping to go up Saturday to see the final demo.

Excellent. I'm jealous, would love to be able to get there myself


I really hope they can prove the sceptics wrong but it might be slow work. Its all going in the right direction, thats the main thing :)

I hope so to.


Will report back with my extensive in-depth knowledge of electro magnetic engineering ;) :D

Do I detect a hint of self sarcasm there :D

JL Naudin who is independently testing the device, (see link) and doing a good job of it, still thinks its worthy of further testing - so its looking good so far.

[foobar]

Yes, but not if the magnetic forces are greater than the frictional forces and you have broken the equilibrium by applying energy at critical point

You could only do that if you kept the magnetic fields themselves in motion, which would require constant application of energy. And it would require greater energy than the sum of what you tried to take out plus what you lost to friction.


I'm not, in this model, claiming you get more energy out. Merely stating it is possible to keep the wheel spinning

You don't even understand what you're claiming. By saying that you can 'keep the wheel spinning' you're claiming that you've put enough energy in to overcome friction for an infinite amount of time. That would require infinite energy input.



Yes, as previously stated. But if you are not generating power then there is no energy out and no extra frictional losses caused by a generator.

Rubbish. All machines have losses to entropy. Go and buy a GCSE physics textbook.


Are you saying it is impossible to keep a magnet wheel spinning by applying energy?

No. I'm saying that such a wheel will never be an over unity device, will never be capable of spinning forever without energy input and will never be a useful power generating device. It will just be a little electromechanical toy that always takes more energy to keep spinning than you could ever extract from it. i.e. not what Steorn are claiming it is.

Seriously, this is a waste of time. You just need to study some basic physics.

[h2pogo]

great discussion been going on for ever.my son who came to dublin with me had a similar discusion with his science teacher..
at least steorn are having a go:)if every one believed their science teacher ..nothing would be possible..

If went to dublin with a multimeter on saterday how could i tell if it worked? any one..

[pi3141]

You don't even understand what you're claiming. By saying that you can 'keep the wheel spinning' you're claiming that you've put enough energy in to overcome friction for an infinite amount of time. That would require infinite energy input.

Yes I understand perfectly what i am claiming, now you are being derogatory, but you don't understand me. Maybe I was not clear. If a magnet wheel, started by hand, would only spin for 30 seconds before coming to a halt, then to keep the wheel spinning for 10 minutes I would require 10 minutes worth of energy - that would not be an infinite amount of energy. If I wanted to keep the wheel spinning for infinity then I would need to apply power for infinity and yes that would take an infinite amount of power.




Rubbish. All machines have losses to entropy. Go and buy a GCSE physics textbook.

I stated -


no extra frictional losses

I have therefore acknowledged their are frictional losses, you are implying I have stated there are no frictional losses. Reading my statement that is cleary and erroneous assertion on your part.



No. I'm saying that such a wheel will never be an over unity device, will never be capable of spinning forever without energy input and will never be a useful power generating device.

Thats great foobar, thank you for the opinion, duly noted.


It will just be a little electromechanical toy that always takes more energy to keep spinning than you could ever extract from it. i.e. not what Steorn are claiming it is.

Maybe I like toys - whats it to you. Ok so Steorn are claiming something else, lets wait for the results. We understand that you predict it can never be done. What is your problem with not wanting anyone to try something for themselves?


Seriously, this is a waste of time. You just need to study some basic physics.

Agreed. You are wasting your time here (and mine) the people on this thread are investigating the possibilities. You may not agree, you are welcome to your opinion and your contributions to the discussion are welcomed. But why bother trying to continually assert it can never be done to people that are trying something out - that in my opinion is a waste of time. If thats what you believe then thats what you believe, why are you trying to force your opinions on me, why are being derogatory about it? Whats it to you what I spend my time reading, discussing and investigating ? Its quite possible the device will be shown to be erroneous and we will realise that, say 'what a shame' and move on. There's nothing wrong with that. There are countless examples in science of scientists saying that something cannot be done or something will not work and then its proved it can be done or will work. That is science. If everyone listened to people like you without ever trying we would never have gone to the moon or invented trains. Can you not see that? Please, accept the fact that people like to try different things and sometimes they are proved wrong or proved right.

Let me put it another way, if you have children will you always expect they learn every lesson from you or will you allow them to live their own life, make their own mistakes and learn their own lessons?

[pi3141]

great discussion been going on for ever.my son who came to dublin with me had a similar discusion with his science teacher..
at least steorn are having a go:)if every one believed their science teacher ..nothing would be possible..

If went to dublin with a multimeter on saterday how could i tell if it worked? any one..

Hi h2pogo, it is a great discussion. I always find these fun and interesting and quite often learn something new from them - thanks for posting by the way. It was your post that I originally found the Steorn project and I have been following JL Naudins investigation of it since then.

In my opinion you would not be able to discern anything useful from just a multimeter, the best you could do with that is confirm energy out and energy in but thats not the full story and a multimeter would not be considered accurate enough to prove the theory one way or another. In short it would give a crude estimation as to what may be going on, but thats all.

[foobar]

Yes, but not if the magnetic forces are greater than the frictional forces and you have broken the equilibrium by applying energy at critical point. I'm not, in this model, claiming you get more energy out. Merely stating it is possible to keep the wheel spinning

Well sure, but how does that make it any different from a standard electric motor if you have to keep putting energy in to make the wheel turn ?


Are you saying it is impossible to keep a magnet wheel spinning by applying energy?

No, I'm saying if that's all you're doing you haven't achieved any kind of useful scientific breakthrough.

[pi3141]

Looks like you've caught up having gone back and read my comments and not then jumping to conclusions. It doesn't mean that you have any kind of breakthrough but your comments showed me that you have a blind opinion on this and will simply keep asserting that it can not be done when anyone mentions anything remotely to do with 'over-unity' or 'free energy' as evidenced by you not reading my comments properly and making incorrect assumptions about my statements.

Foobar, your opinions are welcome but please, as I stated in previous post. If people want to investigate this stuff why all the aggression from you. I understand you may want to correct people and prevent them making errors but you can do that in a positive way without assuming they no nothing and making derogatory remarks about GCSE physics books. If you want to make a difference then go and debate with the researchers who present the information and not with those who simply digest and discuss it unless you can do so in a respectful manner.

Myself and the others on this thread are still waiting for the results to come in from the engineers investigating this technology, they will tell us if its true or not as they are the ones there and in a position to do so. You and I are not.

[foobar]

Looks like you've caught up having gone back and read my comments and not then jumping to conclusions. It doesn't mean that you have any kind of breakthrough but your comments showed me that you have a blind opinion on this and will simply keep asserting that it can not be done when anyone mentions anything remotely to do with 'over-unity' or 'free energy' as evidenced by you not reading my comments properly and making incorrect assumptions about my statements.

Foobar, your opinions are welcome but please, as I stated in previous post. If people want to investigate this stuff why all the aggression from you. I understand you may want to correct people and prevent them making errors but you can do that in a positive way without assuming they no nothing and making derogatory remarks about GCSE physics books. If you want to make a difference then go and debate with the researchers who present the information and not with those who simply digest and discuss it unless you can do so in a respectful manner.

Being respectful doesn't require me to keep silent when something absurd is being proposed. If you find it offensive when people point out simple, testable principles of established physical science, you're the one with a problem.

Being open minded is important, but it's possible to be so open minded that your brain falls out.

Your comments amount to 'How dare you bring up real physics!'. I won't be silent. You don't get to dictate the terms of debate here.


Myself and the others on this thread are still waiting for the results to come in from the engineers investigating this technology, they will tell us if its true or not as they are the ones there and in a position to do so. You and I are not.

The technology was already examined by a panel of scientists and unanimously assessed as not working. This is a scam, and a waste of time. People need to be warned so they don't waste money chasing a laudable dream through impossible means.

Steorn are trying to defraud people and by ignoring established, testable knowledge of physics you're enabling them.

People on this forum have a tendency to disregard 'mundane' scientific knowledge far too lightly. We have the power of reason for a purpose.

[h2pogo]

The technology was already examined by a panel of scientists and unanimously assessed as not working. This is a scam, and a waste of time. People need to be warned so they don't waste money chasing a laudable dream through impossible means.

Steorn are trying to defraud people and by ignoring established, testable knowledge of physics you're enabling them.

People on this forum have a tendency to disregard 'mundane' scientific knowledge far too lightly. We have the power of reason for a purpose.

When ,where and by who was it examined by? I am curios

[pi3141]

Originally Posted by foobar
Your comments amount to 'How dare you bring up real physics!'

Rubbish! My comments amount to - please add to the debate but please do not be derogatory. I have not implied 'do not bring up Physics', I have repeatedly stated your comments are welcome. I have shown that you do not even read the comments correctly, if you can't even do that how good can your scientific train of thought be.

Your going round and round in circles. Your wasting your time and mine.

When ,where and by who was it examined by? I am curios

So am I, please provide the references foobar. Put up or shut up.

[foobar]

Rubbish! My comments amount to - please add to the debate but please do not be derogatory. I have not implied 'do not bring up Physics', I have repeatedly stated your comments are welcome. I have shown that you do not even read the comments correctly, if you can't even do that how good can your scientific train of thought be.

Your going round and round in circles. Your wasting your time and mine.



So am I, please provide the references foobar. Put up or shut up.

I already gave you a link for that. Don't lecture me about not reading comments properly.

[h2pogo]

I already gave you a link for that. Don't lecture me about not reading comments properly.

that link never worked when i tried it..if you could provide the info would be good.

[foobar]

Another

http://pesn.com/2009/06/28/9501550_Steorn_Jury_no_energy/

And another

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steorn#Jury_process

This is junk science. I hope you're not thinking of wasting money on a kit.

[h2pogo]

Another

http://pesn.com/2009/06/28/9501550_Steorn_Jury_no_energy/

And another

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steorn#Jury_process

This is junk science. I hope you're not thinking of wasting money on a kit.

Steorn have developed it since then.

I wish any one who good luck that dont give up..and breaks the out their box..

[foobar]

Steorn have developed it since then.

Yeah.. sure they have.

Look, it's simple. They're trying to violate a basic principle of some very well understood physics. The line integral of force around a closed loop in a magnetic field is zero. They're just going to keep having to put more energy in to overcome friction than they can ever extract from their machine.


I wish any one who good luck that dont give up..and breaks the out their box..

Intelligent people, when confronted by something that plainly can't work try a new approach. Tinkering away with a simple arrangement of low powered magnets hoping to thwart thermodynamics and Maxwells laws is a bit of fun. But constantly claiming 'no it works, honest', when it doesn't, and then trying to make money from other true believers is plain dishonest.

Somebody who really cared about finding an inexpensive source of renewable energy would've shrugged and moved on to a different method by now. Steorn are just refusing to engage with very, very demonstrable and basic physical principles.

[pi3141]

Look, it's simple. They're trying to violate a basic principle of some very well understood physics. The line integral of force around a closed loop in a magnetic field is zero. They're just going to keep having to put more energy in to overcome friction than they can ever extract from their machine.


Well at least your note taking a derogatory tone and you have provided sources, thank you.

From your link to pesn.com I found this link to peswiki -

http://peswiki.com/index.php/Directory:Steorn_Free_Energy

Where we find this quote -


Thieu Knapen, founder of Kinetron, referring to a gizmo he built to characterize Steorn's invention concept, to document whether or not it produced more energy out than was put in; and his surprize that it does work -- something he did not think was possible. He now is apparently involved in developing the technology to market.

A simple search on google for Thieu Knapen turned this up -


A recently leaked 2 minute film has turned up on Google. It further validates the free energy claims of Steorn. In the video we see accomplished engineer and inventor Thieu Knapen, CEO of Dutch company Kinetron discussing Steorn's Orbo technology, which he has personally tested in his own workshop facility.

His conclusions are clear: “We see a gain in energy”.

“I did the first measurement and did it on the Friday evening. Tried to measure things and I had a few magnets lying over here, as I’ve worked for 25 years with magnets, and I was surprised.”

“Then I stopped on the Sunday evening and I was more surprised. Then I saw things that I didn’t believe.”

“And that was my first trigger to say “Hey, maybe we forget something in the past and Steorn have found the trick to do it”.

“What we see is free energy mainly – to make energy out of nothing - so I thought this is not possible for the normal human being, but the idea of Steorn was they came with a very special idea to bring in magnets in a certain way and it was very new for me as well.”

“And even from the data we have and the measurments we did we see that we gain energy, and now mainly the principle is to get it into a working model.”

Speaking about the prototype device pictured on his workbench he is clearly heard to say

“It’s already a miracle”


http://freeenergytruth.blogspot.com/2007/09/respected-engineer-validates-steorn.html

On Peswiki -


On Sept. 1, 2007, an anonymous source wrote:

"The cat is out of the bag now, so I can freely point to the firm Kinetron as a partner of Steorn. It is K that makes the devices - S only designs them. In the video Knapen of K says he already, in the rig he constructed at Kinetron, was getting 25% and it was just the beginning - that was nearly a year ago. The problem was then it was the stop-start machine as seen in the video. It was found that continuous motion could also give a gain and would be simpler to build and maintain. They are seeking to perfect continuous motion as they want to run with that. After all - Kinetron is a supplier to Swatch and other giants. It is well known in the industry."


So I say again, why not wait for the results to the latest demonstration?

From your links I am still trying to find out who the other members of the original jury were but it seems I can only find that out if I join Steorns forum apart from this info on pesn -

Dr. MacDonald holds a Ph.D. in Electrical Engineering, and is a Senior Member of IEEE, as well as a Fellow of the Optical Society of America and a Professor (Emeritus) of Electrical Engineering at the University of Alberta.

I would like to find more detail as to why the original demonstration was proved wrong, its been mentioned the original machine was a start stop device but beyond that I can't find anymore info. Although I have only just started looking.

[pi3141]

And now I found this posted Jan 16th on Steorns website forum -

Knapen pulled the plug (after Steorn seized giving paid orders). I still don't believe he ever thought OU to be real, but could make a good buck consulting/constructing. Maybe also the Kinetron shareholder realized the risk of damage done to their professional image. Knapen was very pissed his video is now in public domain.

Simple: there is no PM version of Orbo that works, never has been (nor ever will).

[foobar]

Orbo could never have worked because it is based on a very basic misunderstanding of some very basic physics. If you want cheap, renewable energy, that's a laudable aim, but there are more intelligent places to look.

[h2pogo]

Orbo could never have worked because it is based on a very basic misunderstanding of some very basic physics. If you want cheap, renewable energy, that's a laudable aim, but there are more intelligent places to look.

It seems to me that the great breakthroughs in science were not made by people who were constrained by basic laws..
Is in intelligent to believe all laws in the universe have been discovered and understood..

[foobar]

It seems to me that the great breakthroughs in science were not made by people who were constrained by basic laws..

They proposed new laws when the ones that existed didn't explain what was observed. Orbo are claiming to have completely re-written something we've studied in great depth for over a century using extremely simple equipment, and their re-writing of the laws of electromagnetism would fail to explain lots of observed phenomena. And they can't demonstrate a working device.

Think of it like this:

Two people are investigating gravity, to try and understand how it really works, and what causes it.

One of them learns about the observations other people have made over the centuries. Studies the different mathematical descriptions of gravity, and the theories other people have put forward about it's cause. Then they look through modern day experiments, and see where the results of the experiments don't agree with the current mathematical descriptions of gravity.
He checks that the results of those experiments have been repeated by others. When he's convinced himself that the experimental observation really do disagree with the current theory, he goes on to try and build a new theory that both predicts all the old observations we agree on, and encompasses the new knowledge we have.

A second bloke just goes 'gravity is wrong man, it's all a lie to stop us from realising that we can fly. I've found a way of shielding myself from gravity using my mind'. But he never demonstrates that he can fly unaided. He does produce some oscilloscope traces showing odd brain activity. But he never flies. And he never produces any rigorous description of how it's supposed to work. He invites a large group of scientists and engineers to study his claims and after 2 years they all say 'as if it wasn't obvious, this guy is nuts. Aren't we patient?'.

After that the 2nd guy and a few people who want to believe insist that he's ideas just needed some development, or that the scientists were lying for some reason, and the next demo will be fine.

Which one would you listen to more ? Which one is more likely to find the truth?


Is in intelligent to believe all laws in the universe have been discovered and understood..

No, and there's no scientist alive today who believes that. But listening to the second bloke in the example is largely a waste of time. You've got limited time available in this life. Don't waste it.

[h2pogo]

They proposed new laws when the ones that existed didn't explain what was observed. Orbo are claiming to have completely re-written something we've studied in great depth for over a century using extremely simple equipment, and their re-writing of the laws of electromagnetism would fail to explain lots of observed phenomena. And they can't demonstrate a working device.

Think of it like this:

Two people are investigating gravity, to try and understand how it really works, and what causes it.

One of them learns about the observations other people have made over the centuries. Studies the different mathematical descriptions of gravity, and the theories other people have put forward about it's cause. Then they look through modern day experiments, and see where the results of the experiments don't agree with the current mathematical descriptions of gravity.
He checks that the results of those experiments have been repeated by others. When he's convinced himself that the experimental observation really do disagree with the current theory, he goes on to try and build a new theory that both predicts all the old observations we agree on, and encompasses the new knowledge we have.

A second bloke just goes 'gravity is wrong man, it's all a lie to stop us from realising that we can fly. I've found a way of shielding myself from gravity using my mind'. But he never demonstrates that he can fly unaided. He does produce some oscilloscope traces showing odd brain activity. But he never flies. And he never produces any rigorous description of how it's supposed to work. He invites a large group of scientists and engineers to study his claims and after 2 years they all say 'as if it wasn't obvious, this guy is nuts. Aren't we patient?'.

After that the 2nd guy and a few people who want to believe insist that he's ideas just needed some development, or that the scientists were lying for some reason, and the next demo will be fine.

Which one would you listen to more ? Which one is more likely to find the truth?



No, and there's no scientist alive today who believes that. But listening to the second bloke in the example is largely a waste of time. You've got limited time available in this life. Don't waste it.

It appears to me steorn have followed the first example.
sorry for a short reply but i agree on your last point:)

[foobar]

It appears to me steorn have followed the first example.
sorry for a short reply but i agree on your last point:)

Steorn haven't followed the first example. They use scientific sounding language, but they haven't produced a coherent new theory of electromagnetism which would underpin their claims, and their claim to be able to produce a certain phenomena haven't stood up to examination by a panel of other scientists. So they don't have a rigorous theory or a repeatable experiment demonstrating the new phenomena which they insist exists.

It amounts to 'if I want something to be true badly enough, and use sciencey-sounding words when I talk about it, then it will become true'. And this isn't science.

Then there's the issue of them having the cheek to try and make money out of ordinary people who would like this to be true, which is why I'm so keen on debunking them. Eccentricity is one thing, but this looks like fraud upon innocent people.

[pi3141]

An article about the final demo on saturday -



The Demo's Done -- Has Steorn Won?

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Have we seen the Holy Grail of free energy today? Sean McCarthy has given it his best shot. What do you think?
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
by creator
(libertarian)
Saturday, January 30, 2010
♣ Saturday, January 30th - "O-Day" for Steorn

The much ballyhoo'd "Final Demo" is now history. Has Steorn made their case? Have they succeeded in "Proving overunity" according to the brassy claims that their "free energy" technology puts out more power than it consumes?

Today at 16:00 GMT, Sean McCarthy, fearless leader of the Irish company that roared, put on what they billed as the "Final demo" to "prove" that a genuine Orbo produces more energy than it consumes, making it a true overunity technology.

Those of us out here in internet land had been held off and tantalized by a couple of frustrations; one, the Steorn SKDB has been down for a day or two. Two, the official Steorn website has been scrolling the following across the bottom of the Steorn "live stream view" screens:

"The venue is closed while we prepare for our live experiment on Saturday. Thank you for your patience. We look forward to seeing you on Saturday at 4pm."

The cameras "went live" again right around 15:45 GMT, beginning intermittently and finally stabilizing and streaming both video and audio.

Many dozens of curious spectators gathered at the Waterways Ireland Visitor Center in Dublin, some expectant and hopeful, others prepared with tough questions to test the man at the helm of perhaps the most maligned and verbally abused technology company since Pons and Fleishman announced "cold fusion."

As best I could estimate from an occasional image of the audience, there were at least 100 or more curious visitors, the largest turnout yet, some no doubt waiting for a glimpse of "the holy grail" of free energy. The viewership on "live stream one" peaked at somewhere around 800 observers during Sean McCarthy's presentation. During his talk, McCarthy said that the Waterways center had enjoyed about 2500 visitors during Steorn's presence there so far, many of whom he believes to be among their target market of engineering developers.

McCarthy introduced this demonstration by showing some videos, then reiterated Steorn's basic claims with some new elucidation, went on to speak explicitly of the "in versus out" electrical energy of today's demonstration, and ended as usual by taking questions from the audience.

The most interesting new element of today's demonstration was an Orbo configuration with a scope output showing a claimed cumulative electrical energy output of 327% more than the cumulative energy input, not counting the previously touted thermal and other effects. There was the usual Orbo motor with a single output coil. The output coil was shorted out, "acting as a heater" with measurements being taken of input current, input voltage, and output current (as the integral of I2R.) The Orbo was running at 1300 RPM. McCarthy demonstrated that pushing the output coil closer to the spinning rotor increased the power output without affecting the motion of the rotor, and explained this as follows:

"How efficient do you really want it to be?... What this is really demonstrating is that there's no coupling between the electrical energy that's put into the system and rotational energy of the system of the rotor itself..."

"If you look at the efficiency of the rotor, in essence you could call it infinity since a direct energy transfer between the steady state element of the system and the active element of the system..."

"The net efficiency during this run, electrical to electrical, let me be clear about that, is 327% and that excludes any work done by the system against friction, which is limited because we're using magnetic bearings, and air resistance."

If those statements by Sean McCarthy are true and demonstrable, his words will no doubt go down in history and one day be hailed as genius that ushered in an age of practically limitless and readily available energy.

Several attendees seemed frustrated and disappointed that there was not more to the demonstration. This is not surprising, considering the splashy claim headlined as "Final demo: Proving overunity."

"We are not going to put out the optimum or the maximum into the public domain, we're putting in what we believe is sufficient to prove our point.... this is not, for, to be frank at this point, for the general public, our market for this [is developers]."

The Question and Answer session was intense although somewhat shorter than that after the last demo. Questions were generally good and the responses from Sean McCarthy clarified a couple of issues in my own thinking. "What limits maximum RPM?" was one of the best questions of the day. Steorn has emphasized that the power out increases with speed, and so this question is key. Sean's answer was that there are "thousands" of limiting variables, but generally speaking, the same limits as those of any rotating system.

Another interesting question was "What is the longest recorded run of an Orbo demonstrator with a single D-cell battery?" Sean answered "About seven days," and the questioner went on to state that he had calculated that an Orbo-like motor ought to be able to run for three weeks on a single D-cell. McCarthy responded that the questioner was incorrect because:

"We're drawin' about, just over an amp."

and therefore the 3 week calculation is incorrect. (If Sean's statement of one amp is literal and accurate, the Orbo should only be able to run for about 10 hours on a single 10,000 mAh battery.)

Steorn's demonstrations have all attempted to show and clarify what Mr. McCarthy has called "key principles" of Orbo operation. He reiterated those again today, with what seemed to be an expansion of the description of the third element:

Orbo suffers no Back EMF
Orbo produces an Inductance Energy Gain
Orbo performs work (thermodynamically speaking "for free") with no degradation in the system components
Mr. McCarthy once again provided a demonstration of these elements but in a slightly different fashion than before. He simply played pre-recorded demos from earlier in the day (a partial, at least, explanation of why the live feeds had been down for a while.) He explained the use of recordings as primarily a matter of the difficulty of getting complex oscilloscope setups configured quickly under the pressure of a live demonstration.


McCarthy said that beginning on Wednesday of next week, anyone will be welcome (by appointment) to bring their own kit of test equipment and make their own measurements of a running Orbo. Steorn has extended their engagement at the Waterways until February 26th. Sean said this will be Steorn's last public offering to validate the technology, but that a lot more independent validations will soon be published in the public domain.

Have Steorn Met Their Promises?
Did Sean McCarthy "hit one out of the park" today, like the Babe Ruth his baby face sometimes reminds me of? While I would have to answer that question with a "no," I think that Steorn has continued to incrementally make their case and to keep their promises.

Steorn previously spoke of plans to demonstrate magnetic domain durability in a week-long experiment streamed live. Today Sean McCarthy told his audience that this has in fact happened over the last week, and that the results have shown conclusively that Orbo magnets do not lose their energy during the operation of the Orbo. He stated that the difference between the domain energy of the magnets (i.e. the energy required to magnetize them, which he claimed was a mere 2.3 joules) is dwarfed by the amount of energy extracted during a one-week demo run, which he claimed to be 21 kilojoules.

"If you look at the amount of excess energy produced - and I stress excess, that is the differential between input and output during the week long test, we generated 21 kilojoules of excess energy, and we measured the components afterwards, and there was absolutely no degradation of the components of the system itself, and what this demonstrates in a very dramatic way the numbers from 2 to 21,000 are very large, is that the drawing of excess energy from an Orbo system is not in any way related to the component parts themselves."

Steorn had promised a cumulative energy display showing direct electrical energy in versus electrical energy out, and this they also showed in the form of an integrating oscilloscope display. The lower (blue) trace of that display shows the energy applied to the coils over time, and the upper (brown) trace shows the energy extracted from a fully-shorted output coil - both of course as measured by the equipment at hand.

Publication of previously promised calorimetric proof, full measurements, and test results are not yet evident on the Steorn website, but McCarthy today reiterated the promise that extensive data reporting of today's tests and the results of the other demonstrations will soon appear there. I don't recall any mention today of the previously promised supercooling tests.

Of course the "hands-on examination" was announced as being open for business beginning Wednesday.

And so, in my opinion, Steorn has substantially kept their public promises, assuming that they follow up accordingly with the website publication and hands-on access this coming week.

What are the prospects of Orbo technology on the market in the near future?

"It's not going to be in your mobile phone in two months. It needs lots and lots of engineering to get there."

McCarthy reiterated that Steorn themselves do not intend to further engineer the Orbo technology.

Did We See "The Holy Grail" Today?
I for one don't believe that any demonstration "over the internet" can possibly reveal "The Holy Grail" of free energy. While the demo device shown today was said by McCarthy to be producing 150 microjoules per revolution of excess electrical energy, there is no way to confirm this from a distance.

Conclusive proof that Orbo is a true overunity technology will still require extensive effort and universal availability to become widely accepted. We will want to see Orbo work in a Faraday cage and will need "hands-on" and "sufficient duration" in-person proof ourselves. Major paradigm changes take time. Sean did say that Steorn will be taking their show "on the road," that they will be in the US in coming days, that they will appear everywhere.

For those of you who may have missed the demo, Steorn has promised to publish videos tomorrow, Sunday January 31st, and you will probably be able to find "unofficial copies" even before then. [HERE]

Folks, as a member of "The Steorn 300," I think things are looking promising! If everything that Sean McCarthy presented today is completely forthright and above board, and if the promised data sets are as he has represented, we are all in for some fascinating times ahead!

Should you find my reporting interesting, I welcome your "thumbs up" as well as your thoughtful comments from any perspective! Thanks for tuning in!

Note: Please follow the links below for previous articles in this series.

© 2010 Dann McCreary (aka creator)
- Copies must be attributed to creator and linked-back to this article.



Link - http://www.nolanchart.com/article7327.html

[freckles]

Unfortunately I didnt make it yesterday but I will still hopefully get up to see it before the Waterways closes.

To me, they proved what they said they were going to do but yes they used their own equipment. So they are either really good con men or this could change everything. I for one believe that this is the start of something groundbreaking!!! The demo itself didnt blow me away, not sure what I was expecting really but 327% overunity says it all???

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

[pi3141]

What a shame you couldn't make it, if it turns out to all be true it would have been like witnessing a first or major historical, scientific event and being one of a small number present.

Oh well. As the man said in the article I posted, watching over internet or on a video after the fact is not proof.

But I completely agree with you, they did what they said, so either this is massive fraud or something completey ground breaking.

We will have to watch and wait, it needs to be replicated and looked at by independent experts. Only then we'll know.

But, WOW! Superb!! Bravo! Excellent dude!!

[foobar]

It's not even 'massive' fraud. It's a silly, little fraud where people who don't understand physics or electrical engineering are amazed by images of an electric motor plugged into an oscilloscope.

[h2pogo]

It's not even 'massive' fraud. It's a silly, little fraud where people who don't understand physics or electrical engineering are amazed by images of an electric motor plugged into an oscilloscope.

are pulsed electrical motors common then?

[griswald]

A recent e mail that Steorn sent out,

Orbo Technology Update

Following the final experiment “Proving Overunity” on Saturday 30th January, Steorn is pleased to announce the following programme for the launch of the SKDB and Orbo technology:

On Monday 1st February 2010 Steorn’s online development community, the SKDB, will be open to a limited number of private and commercial developers, by invitation only.

The following week the SKDB will be made available to the rest of the product development community.

From Wednesday 3rd to Friday 26th February Orbo will be made available for testing in the Waterways Centre. Anyone wishing to book an appointment to test can do so via our website:

www.steorn.com



Ends

griswald

[foobar]

are pulsed electrical motors common then?

Yes. Here's one a dad and his daughter made for her highschool science fair.

Science Fair Project - Electric Pulse Motor - Newman Motor - Table Top Motor - YouTube

Steorn are cranks or liars. I think something of both.

[h2pogo]

Yes. Here's one a dad and his daughter made for her highschool science fair.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2H3InYmWuOM

Steorn are cranks or liars. I think something of both.

I cant see how that differs from a normal electric motor..

[pi3141]

I had to post this, its hilarious -

Hitler reacts to Steorn's demo and launch of Orbo

Link - Hitler reacts to Steorn's demo and launch of Orbo! - YouTube

[foobar]

I cant see how that differs from a normal electric motor..

Funny you should say that. There's nothing special or innovative about Steorn's gadget either.

[pi3141]

It's not even 'massive' fraud.

I can not see the settings on the scope due to the resolution of the video, so I'm unable to say anything for certain about that. If however, they have set the equipment up correctly and are reading the results correctly (something very easily verified) then I have to assume either they are telling the truth or they have rigged the measurement equipment, messed around with the calibration etc and therefore are perpetuating a serious fraud, not just an innocent mistake or lack of understanding.

It's a silly, little fraud where people who don't understand physics or electrical engineering are amazed by images of an electric motor plugged into an oscilloscope.

Could you explain it to me then Foobar, what are they doing, that I don't understand, to convince me its overunity.

I must add, I am not amazed by images of an electrical motor plugged into a scope, I did quite a bit of that during my Power Systems Engineering module at Liverpool JM University for my degree.

[foobar]

I can not see the settings on the scope due to the resolution of the video, so I'm unable to say anything for certain about that. If however, they have set the equipment up correctly and are reading the results correctly (something very easily verified)

No, they aren't. They had 22 scientists look at this for 2 years who unanimously concluded no surplus energy was being generated.


then I have to assume either they are telling the truth or they have rigged the measurement equipment, messed around with the calibration etc and therefore are perpetuating a serious fraud, not just an innocent mistake or lack of understanding.

Yes, that's what they're doing.

[pi3141]

Thanks for the response foobar although I was hoping for a bit more technical detail. But its clear you see this as fraud.

[pi3141]

This is purely personal interpretation and observations as I see it.


The author of the article I posted claimed the Orbo was running off a D Cell battery, he claims such a battery has 10,000mAH capacity. I have done a quick search and confirm this seems to be correct. In the article the author notes a question by an observer regarding the length of time the unit could run on such a battery. Sean MCarthy explained during the demo the Orbo draws about an 1 amp. The D Cell with capacity at 10,000mAH is equal to 10AH, therefore it could power the Orbo for 10 hours if no excess energy was generated. If energy was generated under normal circumstances it would not exceed 90% (a general figure for the efficiency of alternators and motors) then the energy created would have allowed and extra 9 hours of operation. 19 hours total running time from a single D Cell battery.

Assumption 1.
During the 1 month long demonstration at the visitor centre the Orbo unit was not plugged into mains and was run from a battery. However we find in the article that McCarthy states ' the longest an Orbo has run on a D cell was 7 days' Therefore the month long demo was not a contious show of overunity but was probably meant to showcase the device and prove durability. However, McCarthy went on to explain that prior to the final demo there has been a 'week long run' but I do not have the details as to whether or not this was performed with the D Cell battery used as power or the unit plugged in to the mains supply or another arrangement.

An old favourite for discrediting such demonstrations is that of accuracy. Although a multimeter or scope (osciloscope) will accurately display power measurements, the measurements are derived from the maximum and duration of the pulses. However, all pulses have a rise and fall time, the power during those periods are not calculated and can only be calculated by performing integration calculations and discovering 'the area under the graph' and hence deriving an accurate power reading. The article states McCarthy was using an 'integrating osciloscope' hence this argument is null and void if that is the case. Also, I would only suspect that such accuracy would be neccessary on a system that was trying to prove 101% efficiency or 100.5% efficiency. In such a case any extra energy observed could be attributed to measurement inaccuracy. This device apparently shows 200 to 300+ % therefore the pulse rise and fall times are slightly irrelevant but neccessary to be known to ensure full understanding and accuraccy of claims made regarding power out over power in.

It is not possible to discern from the online video how the scope has been set up, in other words are both inputs to the scope set to identical voltage and time references.

Assumption 2
The scope settings for both inputs are set the same.If the scope inputs are identical and no fraudulent tampering with the calibration of the device has happened then we have to assume the traces visible on the video of the scope are true. If thats the case then the scope does indeed 'appear' to show over unity. However, I am unclear what the scope is showing, the output power seems to start at zero and increase over time, why then do they not show a constant output trace above the constant input trace once steady state operation has been attained. Because the input pulses can be seen to deviate from their normal zero DC line and float up occasionaly then it seems they are not displaying the trace result from time zero reference i.e.start up at 0 rpm to the point at which energy out is greater than energy in - 1300 rpm as measured and shown by McCarthy in the video. This is confusuing, as it seems to suggest during a timeframe, the energy input is constant, apart from a small DC drift, but the energy output changes from zero or near zero to 300+ %. This may be in line with their explanation of the system as being 'time variant' I have to say, the langauge that is used on their website to explain the device is a little confusing too me -


Orbo is based upon time variant magnetic interactions, i.e. magnetic interactions whose efficiency varies as a function of transaction timeframes.

I do not recognise such language as engineering terminology that I am familiar with, but it may make perfect sense to a physicist.

So, given that my assumptions are correct then my observations are as follows -

Orbo demonstrated a device to work well beyond the expected duration of time during their continous webcam demonstration for 1 week the period being well beyond the expected periods of either 10 hours or 19 hours if the energy produced was stored and fed back into the system.

If the scope is set correctly then it appears the device is putting more energy out than in but that result is measured over a period of time and is not an instantaneous result so to speak. i.e. at any given point in time the energy out is not neccessarily greater than the energy in but rather the result is gained over a period of time.

If it is a fraud then i suspect the equipment has been tampered with to show the desired results. This could easily be proven by someone taking their own equipment and testing as Steorn have offered to allow. I do not believe it is just a case of setting up the scope incorrectly to appear to show desired results as such an error would not take a jury of experts 2 years to figure out. That would be spotted in 2 seconds. So, either Steorn have tampered with the equipment or the equipment is correct and valid.

Due to the confusion regarding the scope traces we would need to see calculated results clearly detailing the total energy out over total energy in. McCarthy claims 2.3 joules in and 21 Kilojoules out. We would need to see how they derive their results - i.e. with what they are referring to as transactional timeframes on their website.

[foobar]

Thanks for the response foobar although I was hoping for a bit more technical detail. But its clear you see this as fraud.

They're claiming at least one of the following extraordinary things:-

i) Violation of the most basic law of thermodynamics, conservation of energy.

ii) The discovery of a new and mysterious source of energy that doesn't conform to any current understanding of electromagnetism, and doesn't involve the components of the device being consumed as 'fuel' in any way.

They claim to have achieved one or both of these things with a simple rotating arrangement of magnets you could build at home.

Now that's an extraordinary claim. It's also an extraordinary claim that was studied by 22 qualified people for over 2 years and then found it to be completely unfounded.

They also aren't actually selling Orbo-based generators. Not of any kind. Just test kits.

So I think it's massively more likely that they've simply faked the demos. It wouldn't be very hard. They've had years to think about how to fake it more convincingly after their previous demos flopped so badly.

[foobar]

If it is a fraud then i suspect the equipment has been tampered with to show the desired results. This could easily be proven by someone taking their own equipment and testing as Steorn have offered to allow.

It's already been done by 22 people who all said 'it doesn't work and this is a waste of time'. The first thing a real engineer would do this time would be to simply dismantle their device looking for hidden power sources.


I do not believe it is just a case of setting up the scope incorrectly to appear to show desired results as such an error would not take a jury of experts 2 years to figure out.

They gave up after Steorn failed to provide them with any means of validating their claims. None of the demonstrations, equipment or schematics so they could construct their own orbos, that Steorn provided to them, worked.

2 years is a sign of them being patient rather than Steorn being onto something mysterious.

So, either Steorn have tampered with the equipment or the equipment is correct and valid.

Yes, J'Accuse. Steorn have tampered with the equipment. They're conmen. Liars. Not worth wasting time on. Wake me up when they start selling Orbo generators that work, or just selling power to the national grid from their own bank of generators. They just won't, and deep down everybody here probably knows that.

[the lorax]

my threads to check out when i have time. i've always been fascinated with perpetual energy/free energy.

[pi3141]

Yes, J'Accuse. Steorn have tampered with the equipment. They're conmen. Liars. Not worth wasting time on. Wake me up when they start selling Orbo generators that work, or just selling power to the national grid from their own bank of generators. They just won't, and deep down everybody here probably knows that.

:) Cheers foobar, I wasn't expecting you to comment on my observations (just in case you thought I was) they were just what I am thinking about it.

Looking at the Steorn forum for answers, not much going on there, suprisingly little genuine qualified engineering interest. They are waiting for calorimetry test results to be posted but only in members section.

There apparently people taking up the offer to test but no details who actually is testing, just the odd forum member who says they've been and its great but they're not qualified engineers.

Sean McCarthy is on the forum and states this -


Folks,

Ok - a little entertaining to read some of the comments this morning. Let me state something very clearly here. The system demonstrated last night is clear evidence of over-unity, or clear evidence of fraud. We either rigged the scope or we did not – and we did not.

As for the ‘levels’ of OU demonstrated, it’s a mute point – we could have shown 1000% (I believe at one stage we did as we pushed the pick-up coil closer to the system). The position remains the same, the results shown are well beyond ‘measurement error’ – so real or fraud, make your own mind up on that matter.

Sean



I did find an answer about the osciloscope scale -


Do you have any clarification on the scale used for the live brown and purple overlaid traces?

Were they plotted at the same scale?

And was the scope automatically rescaling either in terms of horizontal time or vertical energy?


Not sure on the absolute scale to be honest (it will all be there in the the published data), yes both on the same scale, no rescaling.

[foobar]

Looking at the Steorn forum for answers, not much going on there, suprisingly little genuine qualified engineering interest.

It's no surprise to me, because basically their claims just sound absurd to anybody who's seriously studied engineering or the physical sciences. They'd just be written off as deluded 'perpetual motion' inventors. I'm only talking about them because I don't like the way they're trying to make money from experiment kits.


Sean McCarthy is on the forum and states this -
---
I did find an answer about the osciloscope scale -

It's just like when Tony Blair is caught blatantly lying. He doesn't say 'oops, got me bang to rights guvnor!', he just puts on a serious expression and says 'of course I told the complete truth'.

[skywalker9]

___

No more frustration guys. This one works! And the fella has the physics, maths and Phd's to prove it.

http://www.cheniere.org/megstatus.htm

___

[pi3141]

___

No more frustration guys. This one works! And the fella has the physics, maths and Phd's to prove it.

http://www.cheniere.org/megstatus.htm

___

Yep, seen it. Replicated by Naudin here -

http://jnaudin.free.fr/meg/meg.htm

Bearden did say that replication is difficult as it needs fine tuning to get best results. The MEG doesn't seem to have been exposed as fraud or bad science and its been around for a while now.

Was going to buy Beardens book but I probably wouldn't understand it!!

[skywalker9]

___

Info on Tom and some articles, they are difficult to understand but it helps with wikipedia open for quick research on difficult things to understand like electrical impedance, how to dope semiconductor materials, poynting flow, potential vectors etc.

http://www.hsv.com/writers/bearden/tommenu.htm

His good mate John Bedini has some much simpler machines and you can see his doco in parts here... it is not labelled as parts so follow chunk 1, chunk 2... on NoArbitraryImpose's channel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMwlo0ym-rE

____

"It's dangerous to be right when the government is wrong" Voltaire

[foobar]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_E._Bearden

No free energy yet.

[skywalker9]

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thomas_E._Bearden

No free energy yet.

That write about him on wikipedia does not sound too good. I hadn't read that before, I just looked up electromagnetic terms mentioned in his articles on his website. I understand and respect your opinion.
It is a concept so radical that most physicists and scientists would be quite reluctant to make any proper tests. I will not right off this direction of research too quickly though, after all scientists can't explain the actual cause of the heart beat yet, so that implies we have a lot to learn still about electromagnetism.

[foobar]

That write about him on wikipedia does not sound too good. I hadn't read that before, I just looked up electromagnetic terms mentioned in his articles on his website. I understand and respect your opinion.
It is a concept so radical that most physicists and scientists would be quite reluctant to make any proper tests. I will not right off this direction of research too quickly though, after all scientists can't explain the actual cause of the heart beat yet, so that implies we have a lot to learn still about electromagnetism.

People do test radical concepts. Steorn managed to find 22 qualified people to look at their idea before it was written off as a waste of time.

The invention of solar cells wasn't surrounded by all this mystery and claims of 'damaged prototypes' and 'suppression', so I don't believe there's a conspiracy in effect to suppress renewable energy inventions.

The reality is, that somebody claiming to have found a limitless source of energy requiring no fuel source out of magnets and coils citing 'zero point energy' is very likely to be kidding themselves or being dishonest.

I'd love to be proved wrong. Think how much cheaper so many things would be if the cost of electricity plummeted to near zero, think of all those people living in remote villages who could now have refrigeration and safe reading lights in the evening.

[pi3141]

I would like to point out that Wiki is not the fountain of all knowledge (as we all know) and is wrong on 1 point.


No independent tests of the device have supported Bearden's claims.


The wiki page states - This page was last modified on 6 January 2010 at 05:00.

JL Naudin has replicatd the device and shown his device has a (coefficient of performance) COP = 1.75 (Anything over 1 is over unity)

Link - http://jnaudin.free.fr/meg/meg.htm

JL Naudin's investigation into the MEG was in 2000 (Last update 03-22-03)

[skywalker9]

I would like to point out that Wiki is not the fountain of all knowledge (as we all know) and is wrong on 1 point.



The wiki page states - This page was last modified on 6 January 2010 at 05:00.

JL Naudin has replicatd the device and shown his device has a (coefficient of performance) COP = 1.75 (Anything over 1 is over unity)

Link - http://jnaudin.free.fr/meg/meg.htm

JL Naudin's investigation into the MEG was in 2000 (Last update 03-22-03)

Nice find. JL Naudin's replication!
I agree about wikipedia, it's spot on for terms and definitions, but profiles of people can be posted by anyone for any reason. People like Nassim Haramein get removed from wiki because their work leads science into a common field with harmonics and consciousness, and other people get taken for a ride because they might be on to something too paradigm shifting.

John Bedini has some great over-unity machines up and running, like his radiant battery charger, and I have seen fairly bad youtube replications that are >1 from some everyday UK guys just having some fun with the plans.

Plus conventional heat-pump machines get over-unity, Check 'heat-pump' on wikipedia! And the potential energy from the vacuum is first an electron gas, like an aether, before it is converted into usable energy in the chemical reaction of a wet or a gel cell car/truck battery in Bedinis's designs. The heat pumping action is very similar to the switching of the MEG and the timing of Bedini's magneto rotors. I think the same concept is in action.

I am sure there is more to it these designs, especially if the physics (regardless of the story of where Tom got his PHD, there have been many inventors without any PHD's) can actually fit into the current model in more ways than it doesn't. So what if a small aspect of it does not fit flushly, many great works have had a few frayed edges in their developmental stages.

Who can say something does not work because an article says is doesn't, that is not a scientific opinion in itself, even from someone with 15 Oxford PHD's. These pompous scientifically minded people that give blunt, 'its a fake', or 'just another fraud' opinions from a few paragraphs in an article are only proving that they are not honest effective scientists anyway. Science is about experiments not dogma, it is shame the dogma has become like a religion for many scientists, it has reached orthodox levels like a cult in some situations. You have not seen it with your own eyes by merely reading an article. Anyway, just say it does work fine, and I suspect it does, if the info on wiki was too informative I am sure someone would have the info removed within hours.

[pi3141]

I agree. Last night there was a programme on TV about the Universe and Infinity. The Oxford PHD's were saying that in an infinite universe all permutations must exist. They concentrated on the 'monkey writing Shakespeare' theme. Basically in an infinite universe, somewhere, a monkey is typing the complete works of Shakespeare. To put it another way - a phrase I love to quote -

In an infinite universe nothing is impossible, everything is mandatory.

So, under classical physics, I am expected to believe that a monkey is writing Shakespeare but its impossible to find a system exhibiting 100.001% efficiency anywhere in the universe?

Seems at bit one sided too me. I always come back to the basics, the universe was (apparently) created from the Big Bang. That means that out of nothing we get the entire universe and all the energy in it. Thats like, overunity to the power of infinity, in other words, no energy in all the energy in the universe out. So it seems to me classical physics is predicated on the biggest over unity event in the history of the universe, but then they say over unity doesn't exist? How does that work?

If the universe is infinite and everything is possible, as they claim, why not over unity?

[supersmell]

I agree. Last night there was a programme on TV about the Universe and Infinity. The Oxford PHD's were saying that in an infinite universe all permutations must exist. They concentrated on the 'monkey writing Shakespeare' theme. Basically in an infinite universe, somewhere, a monkey is typing the complete works of Shakespeare.
Good thing we don't have an infinite universe. With our finite universe, even if the universe was filled with monkeys on typewriters from it's beginning, it'd be unlikely that even any decent chunk of any work of Shakespeare would have been produced.


So, under classical physics, I am expected to believe that a monkey is writing Shakespeare but its impossible to find a system exhibiting 100.001% efficiency anywhere in the universe?
Yes, but if you take a small enough system during some infinitesimal period of time you could have 100.000% efficiency. But, conservation of energy isn't a dependent on statistics, so any better is impossible for any system.


Seems at bit one sided too me. I always come back to the basics, the universe was (apparently) created from the Big Bang. That means that out of nothing we get the entire universe and all the energy in it. Thats like, overunity to the power of infinity, in other words, no energy in all the energy in the universe out. So it seems to me classical physics is predicated on the biggest over unity event in the history of the universe, but then they say over unity doesn't exist? How does that work?
All of the universes energy was inside of whatever was before the big bang.

[foobar]

Conventional heat-pump machines do not get over-unity.

Basically the universe you're describing is one where a plethora of people have invented machines that produce energy without fuel (not even sunlight or wind), yet they haven't even managed to sell a bit of power to their national grids. They haven't built power plants. But the plans are apparently available for all to see on the internet.

You have to consider the option that these machines aren't being suppressed by some mysterious oil concern (you not only know of their existence, but have access to youtube videos and schematics by people who claim to have replicated them), but that they simply don't work as claimed.

After all, Solar, wind and geothermal power weren't suppressed. Ask yourselves why not ?

Could it be that there are quite a few cranks out there making these sites and vids who know how to tap into the understandably common desire to have something for nothing ?

[foobar]

One good reason for not believing that there is a machine exhibiting 100.01% efficiency anywhere in the universe is that it would violate the principle of conservation of energy.

Statistics and probability tell you the likelihood of something that is possible occuring. They don't act as a get-out clause that means anything you can imagine is true somewhere, one day.

[pi3141]

Good thing we don't have an infinite universe. With our finite universe, even if the universe was filled with monkeys on typewriters from it's beginning, it'd be unlikely that even any decent chunk of any work of Shakespeare would have been produced.

Is the finite universe idea now accepted as 'classical physics' I thought they were still working on the infinite idea.


Yes, but if you take a small enough system during some infinitesimal period of time you could have 100.000% efficiency. But, conservation of energy isn't a dependent on statistics, so any better is impossible for any system.

So hang on, I'm supposed to believe that there is a monkey writing shakepspeare, but there isn't an infinite universe - which, in that theory, is required for the monkey to exist, but there still isn't a possibility of free energy system?


All of the universes energy was inside of whatever was before the big bang.

Or there never was a big bang in the way its been described. Maybe we are observing something that our calculations indicate a zero starting point but thats just our observation of our measurements of it. Perhaps what is here always was, its just our experience of it is new. Like we were formed at the birth of a new galaxy, not the entire universe. (I'm talking out my a*se here but hopefully you get my point, maybe our universe is just a new part of the universe so we only record or detect the path back to that beginning)

[pi3141]

One good reason for not believing that there is a machine exhibiting 100.01% efficiency anywhere in the universe is that it would violate the principle of conservation of energy.

Hi Foobar, you keep bringing up that conservation of energy theory but lets go through it again. Please tell me where or why I am going wrong.

From Wiki -


The law of conservation of energy is an empirical law of physics. It states that the total amount of energy in an isolated system remains constant over time (is said to be conserved over time). A consequence of this law is that energy can neither be created nor destroyed, it can only be transformed from one state to another. The only thing that can happen to energy in a closed system is that it can change form, for instance chemical energy can become kinetic energy.

An Isolated system -


In the natural sciences an isolated system, as contrasted with a open system, is a physical system that does not interact with its surroundings. It obeys a number of conservation laws: its total energy and mass stay constant. They cannot enter or exit, but can only move around inside. An example is in the study of spacetime, where it is assumed that asymptotically flat spacetimes exist.

Truly isolated physical systems do not exist in reality (except perhaps for the universe as a whole), because, for example, there is always gravity between a system with mass and masses elsewhere.


So if truly isolated systems do not actually exist, for which the theory of conservation of energy is only applicable, otherwise its used as a tool to model a system that behaves like an isolated system, why does this law - always - apply to a system that does exist in reality without there ever being an exception?

(All credit for that to Nassim Haramein)

[supersmell]

None of these free energy devices work by taking energy out of another universe, so for these devices at least the universe can be considered an isolated system.

But really, if you believe all the pseudoscience that goes along with these things then they're just breaking the second law of thermodynamics, so in an infinite universe (not that there's any reason to believe there exists anything past the speed of light multiplied by the time since the big bang) I guess some of these devices would sometimes work.

[pi3141]

None of these free energy devices work by taking energy out of another universe, so for these devices at least the universe can be considered an isolated system.

But also if the device is not taking energy out of this universe it is also considered an isolated system.


But really, if you believe all the pseudoscience that goes along with these things then they're just breaking the second law of thermodynamics, so in an infinite universe (not that there's any reason to believe there exists anything past the speed of light multiplied by the time since the big bang) I guess some of these devices would sometimes work.

Thanks for that concession, all entirely theoretical at this point and so far un demonstrated to scientific standards plus if the universe is not infinite.... But still.... we live in hope.

Still waiting on the Steorn final judgement....

[pi3141]

From Steorn site -

Testing - Orbo Technology Update 11 February 2010

On 30th January 2010 Steorn announced that it would make Orbo technology available for testing at the Waterways Visitor Centre.

Since then Steorn has been hosting third-party testing and finalising calorimetry tests. This third-party testing will continue until the end of February.

Steorn will make the results of the calorimetry tests available alongside other test data in the coming weeks. These results will be pivotal to a widespread uptake of Developer (and ultimately, Commercial) Licenses. Steorn will open the SKDB to the general engineering community after these test results have been released.

[skywalker9]

Conventional heat-pump machines do not get over-unity.

Basically the universe you're describing is one where a plethora of people have invented machines that produce energy without fuel (not even sunlight or wind), yet they haven't even managed to sell a bit of power to their national grids. They haven't built power plants. But the plans are apparently available for all to see on the internet.

You have to consider the option that these machines aren't being suppressed by some mysterious oil concern (you not only know of their existence, but have access to youtube videos and schematics by people who claim to have replicated them), but that they simply don't work as claimed.

After all, Solar, wind and geothermal power weren't suppressed. Ask yourselves why not ?

Could it be that there are quite a few cranks out there making these sites and vids who know how to tap into the understandably common desire to have something for nothing ?

Efficiency

When comparing the performance of heat pumps, it is best to avoid the word "efficiency" which has a very specific thermodynamic definition. The term coefficient of performance (COP) is used to describe the ratio of useful heat movement to work input. Most vapor-compression heat pumps utilize electrically powered motors for their work input. However, in most vehicle applications, shaft work, via their internal combustion engines, provide the needed work.
When used for heating a building on a mild day, a typical air-source heat pump has a COP of 3 to 4, whereas a typical electric resistance heater has a COP of 1.0. That is, one joule of electrical energy will cause a resistance heater to produce one joule of useful heat, while under ideal conditions, one joule of electrical energy can cause a heat pump to move much more than one joule of heat from a cooler place to a warmer place.

In any book on the laws of thermodynamics you will find the scientists and mathematicians that are honest and brave enough (normal enough) to say that in their maths they have sharp gradient spikes that imply a break in parts of the laws of thermodynamics. But they can't explain the sharp gradients that clearly appear in their mathematical calculations so they ignore them because they would mess up the sound of the way their thermodynamic laws work without the gradients.

I used the heat pump quote from wiki to show you how a switching system working with a radiance works, 'not a current'.

You must be living in a closed universe of dogma, lost the simple idea of experimentation, in a world of skeptics, and this type of people clearly slow down the evolution of humanity.

[pi3141]

I've heard Over Unity discussed before about heat pumps, here's my understanding of it. Although I admit I do not know much about heat pumps so someone correct me if I'm wrong. But here goes, in nature there is a natural effect of heating or cooling air when the air is passed through a narrowing or expanding space, air will naturally heat up or cool down. Therefore, you only pay for the pressure to move air through the tube, the shape of the tube causes the air to expand or contract which in turn causes the air to heat or cool. Such an arrangement seems to be a system that utilizes a naturally occuring phenomenon, hence it could be argued, the system is collecting or utilizing an inherently occuring force or process for which you don't pay for in input energy. In other words, pressure into a narrowing tube will cause greater pressure out with respect to the narrowing plus heat due to the effect of compressing the air. Hence you only pay for the input pressure but you get out the resultant pressure plus heat. In effect this would be a non isolated system as it utilizes an inherent naturally occuring phenomenon?

[foobar]

Hi Foobar, you keep bringing up that conservation of energy theory but lets go through it again. Please tell me where or why I am going wrong.

So if truly isolated systems do not actually exist, for which the theory of conservation of energy is only applicable, otherwise its used as a tool to model a system that behaves like an isolated system, why does this law - always - apply to a system that does exist in reality without there ever being an exception?


The universe itself, as a whole, is a closed system. Energy can change form, but it doesn't get created or destroyed as such. A solar cell isn't an 'overunity' device or a 'perpetual motion' machine or producing 'energy from nothing', it's a device which converts the energy in light into electrical energy.

These devices usually claim to be converting zero-point energy into electrical or mechanical energy, but when their proponents try and back this up with physical calculations it's always nonsense. It looks impressive and mathematical to somebody with no training in physics, but every calculation I've looked at so far has been complete rubbish.

A basic thing to understand about zero point energy is that it represents the minimum energy state possible in a vacuum at absolute 0. To withdraw energy from such a a base state would be like trying to extract heat from a refridgerator, i.e. you have to expend more energy to do it than you can get back out.

Even if zero point energy were being extracted, we'd also expect to see all kinds of weird quantum effects as the base state of the space the energy was being extracted from was altered in a fundamental way.

These guys with their arrangements of household magnets claiming to be producing free energy (who never seem to be able to produce a working generator which they can sell the energy from at a profit) who then make claims about 'vacuum energy' and try to back it up with some impressive looking but shoddy maths are just deluding themselves.

If you're interested in energy from an ever-replenishing source which doesn't cause pollution, you'd be better off looking at fusion research or forms of renewable energy like solar, wind, tides and geothermal sources.

[skywalker9]

John Bedini's magneto rotors, and Tom Bearden's MEG are not perpetual energy machines, or zero point generators, or getting energy from no-where.

The 'Casimir effect' is stating that all university students, people with PHD's and other credible scientists don't understand the Vacuum.

The MEG and Bedini's machines work in a similar way to Solar cells. They use various semi-conductor materials to gather one aspect of energy (light in solar) and convert it into electrical energy. What people don't learn in degrees is about all the invisible forces, fields or energies. Science only views effects, and in the case of the universe definitely not causes.

Now by negative definition based on effects showing up in different observances Tom, Bedini, Tesla, Poynting and Whitaker, to name a few known ones, have discovered a type of energy, like a fine gas in association with electrical phenomenon. So they being real scientists did different experiments which allowed for this invisible energy to exist and viewed the results, well eventually all of them could start to see how it worked. And according to Newton all things have an antiparallel, so all our positive energy will have its antiparallel negative energy.

The only things the MEG and the Bedini magneto motors do is collect potential energy, (which is the negative of actual energy) in a semiconductor material much like a solar cell and the convert it into usable electricity. They are not getting anything from nothing the energy they are collecting is everywhere, stick a 2m copper rod in the earth, which creates a weak dipole, and put a voltmeter on it, you have electricity there. Not enough for any major purpose apart from telephone lines, but it shows that it is there. Lightning, and the charges between negative and positively charged layers of the atmosphere are all full of charge. Tectonic plates produce ball-lightning in some cases of movement. Our body, or heartbeat, every neuron uses the electricity in the fabric of the universe to operate. There is a source to all this charge that we don't learn about in university. The source charge is actually still unexplained.

So from the magnets, which are dipoles, they just collect potential energy that is constantly radiating from all dipoles, which can be given a name for ease of working like say virtual-photon-flux, and calculated as a antiparallel force (according to newton) and written in maths for calculating as an equal and opposite force to usable electrical energy. With this in mind they then start experiments for collecting it and converting it. They needed to see if they were loosing it, weakening it, wasting it, or not getting it in certain ways, how to convert it..... Anyway thats what that list of scientists I gave you up there did, they experimented, practically, and saw effects and results with their own eyes.

But the worst thing happened, the majority of people never learnt that in university so they just said, after an overload of their pathetic imaginations, it can't be right, I simply won't believe it, I will not even waste a minute of my precious time to even cast my intelligent eyes on any trace of their work. It was this that has created millions of people that confuse perpetual energy, zero point energy, and the vacuum for fuel-less sources of free energy.

There are many frauds, idiots and greedy people that have attempted to flog fake machines for money, they have messed with peoples heads too. Second, any patent or design that gets destroyed, or hidden away, is done so because someone fears loosing money, so they must have been effective designs.

Thats the problem, new forms of electromagnetic technology that work with potentials will only arrive in the world for use by inventors not seeking money. Commercialization and all people that think this way are the reason why Tesla's systems were shelved, and I would say that the same thing has happened to many people that have developed efficient alternatives to the billion dollar fossil fuel industry.

I for one am merely searching to learn of a process of vastly cheaper cleaner energy other than tidal, waves, solar of wind, (cold fusion research is being delayed for some reason, probably because of money) for the benefit of humanity, because it is clear that if people don't open their minds 'now' we will all be destroyed very soon by our own selfish greedy ignorant closed minded pathetic malignance when it comes to anything new and fancy and unheard of. Ofcourse the discovery of a new system will be great, but it will take time to infiltrate it into society without disturbing the global economy.

I think that you guys that are against the MEG and the Bedini generators should at least look at all they have to say on them before you make any opinions, and keep an open mind. Otherwise you are just like the people in the past that went around telling everyone telephones are a fake when they were in their developmental stages, and that anyone that mentioned talking to someone on the other side of the world through a telephone was a nutcase.

[supersmell]

The 'Casimir effect' is stating that all university students, people with PHD's and other credible scientists don't understand the Vacuum.
Something that was predicted, tested, and found to be with 15% of expected values 60 years ago shows scientists don't understand vacuums?

[pi3141]

Good posts Skywalker.

I've done a fair bit of reading on Bedini's sytem, emailed him years ago and he sent me a circuit diagram for his controller. I watched the 'mythbuster' replication of it with dismay. They were soo bad at it. The other thing about that program is that they bought several kits, one of which was basically an ariel which when erected was supposed to collect free energy, well it did, but they concluded after proving it did that because it was a small amount it was useless. Well that doesn't matter its proof of principle in my book. Why not expand on it and connect all the lightning conductors on the side of skyscrapers or large buildings to a common point and measure the power there, I imagine from lots of buildings in a city it would be significant and could be used to power street lights. Not free energy though, in the true sense. Just standard physics.

I believe one of Bedini's ideas have made it to market, I have an interest in electric cars and have found (linked from Beardens site) this company -

Link http://energenx.com/index.html

They make battery rechargers which it states uses 'Radiant' charging. Not sure how it works, probably high frequency pulsing.

[pi3141]

The universe itself, as a whole, is a closed system. Energy can change form, but it doesn't get created or destroyed as such. A solar cell isn't an 'overunity' device or a 'perpetual motion' machine or producing 'energy from nothing', it's a device which converts the energy in light into electrical energy.


A basic thing to understand about zero point energy is that it represents the minimum energy state possible in a vacuum at absolute 0. To withdraw energy from such a a base state would be like trying to extract heat from a refridgerator, i.e. you have to expend more energy to do it than you can get back out.

Even if zero point energy were being extracted, we'd also expect to see all kinds of weird quantum effects as the base state of the space the energy was being extracted from was altered in a fundamental way.


If you're interested in energy from an ever-replenishing source which doesn't cause pollution, you'd be better off looking at fusion research or forms of renewable energy like solar, wind, tides and geothermal sources.

Good post foobar, thanks for that info. I totally agree with what your saying about renewable's. That really encapsulates my motivation for all this.

If you'll indulge me, I wanna tell you a story...

When I was growing up I heard an 'urban legend' it was the legend of the everlasting lightbulb. Apparently, someones grandad had lived in his house all his life, passed on from his parents. He remembers buying a lightbulb years and years ago and that bulb is still working some 80 years later. He writes to the lightbulb company and explains it, they write back and say, 'yes, that is an everlasting lightbulb prototype the factory produced back in the early 1900's we lost it years ago and wondered where it went. Send it back to us and we'll give you a lifetime free supply of lightbulbs.' Of course, grandad sends it back, some newspaper somewhere publishes the story. But nobody knows who it is, what paper it was, what the lightbulb company was.

I asked a lot about this particular story and was generally told by 'elders and teachers' - 'Oh no, that couldn't possibly be true. if such a thing could be made, someone, somewhere would have made it and bought it to market. No way could such a device be surpressed, its a free market, someone would be making money off it if it were true'.

So thats the myth. When I went to university I met a guy, an older sound engineer doing my course. I had many discussions with him and I related this story. He said 'Oh yes it can be done, I've made one' He went on to explain, that a lightbulb is like a fuse, but a fuse blows when operated over voltage and a lightbulb glows at operating voltage. But if there are ripples on the mains, the bulb, like a fuse, will blow. So, if you put a diode before the bulb, you perform half wave rectification, the volts drop by half and the lightbulb won't blow. Simple. You obviously only get half the ight out, you may detect a flicker effect but you can smooth that with a capacitor.

So now I knew, yes it can be done. During the second year we had to do a group project for a module called - creative problem solving and innovation. B**llsh*t module but any. Core module, had to be done. We had to use some Russian software, input a problem and the software would generate solutions that we then investigated. The software also had a database of solutions used in industry that it would suggest if it fitted your problem. I suggested we solve the 'everlasting lightbulb' problem. After all, we knew how too, it would document the theory in a university. Perfect. So we did, and while doing it, the software showed us about a dozen patented designs for 'everlasting, longer life, more efficient' lightbulbs! We showed the solution using the diode method which was not on the database. We got distinctions for the project.

So now I knew, when they say 'it can't be done' 'someone would have done it and be making money from it' 'its a free market' ITS B*LLSH*T

We live in a controlled and profit driven society, if there's a better way of doing something, we don't do it unless someone can make a lot of money from it. Period. Thats all well and good, but at the extremes of that model are people exploited, the world is polluted and there is an extremely cheap price put on life. That is a disgrace of 'satanic' proportion.

So, I will never listen to someone who comes along with the usual remarks and refuses to investigate the possibility so that we can maintain this 'Status Quo' Thats the thinking that have stopped electric cars coming too market, manufacturers telling us that the technology isn't good enough. Isn't it? If someones grandma who only drives 50 miles a week had an electric car with a range of 60 miles, could charge it up weekly for free using solar panels on the garage roof and a battery bank in the garage whose maintainence and servicing bill would be hugely reduced then why are they no good for her? The fact is, the right tool for the right job dictates that for some people electric cars would be fine. Why not make paper out of Hemp? Why not build cars on the Ford Hemp car design, plastic body, engine running off of ethanol distilled from Hemp, no pollution, no rust, longer life span. Why have all these better ways and designs been surpressed. Market forces? To keep life cheap? Digraceful, wastefull, irresponsible.

So I will keep looking for free energy and renewable energy ways and I hope the world adopts the multpile solutions we have available to improve the world and the life's of everyone. Third world included. If I find something, I will shout as loud as I can about it.

[skywalker9]

So, I will never listen to someone who comes along with the usual remarks and refuses to investigate the possibility so that we can maintain this 'Status Quo' Thats the thinking that have stopped electric cars coming too market, manufacturers telling us that the technology isn't good enough. Isn't it? If someones grandma who only drives 50 miles a week had an electric car with a range of 60 miles, could charge it up weekly for free using solar panels on the garage roof and a battery bank in the garage whose maintainence and servicing bill would be hugely reduced then why are they no good for her? The fact is, the right tool for the right job dictates that for some people electric cars would be fine. Why not make paper out of Hemp? Why not build cars on the Ford Hemp car design, plastic body, engine running off of ethanol distilled from Hemp, no pollution, no rust, longer life span. Why have all these better ways and designs been surpressed. Market forces? To keep life cheap? Digraceful, wastefull, irresponsible.

So I will keep looking for free energy and renewable energy ways and I hope the world adopts the multpile solutions we have available to improve the world and the life's of everyone. Third world included. If I find something, I will shout as loud as I can about it.

Nice post man. I like the light bulb story, I guess they would have known that already, they probably preferred that the bulbs blow so people keep paying for new ones.

I agree on the electric cars, I think it's a great idea. I am sure they have perfectly good ones already but they can't make enough money out of them.

It is disheartening when you find how many great ideas have been suppressed simply for money. It is a shame so many millions of people have to suffer because of a money hungry minority. It seems that there is no justice, but the balance of nature is getting disturbed and she will level everything out again I'm sure. It is just sad that millions will have to be involved in an outcome that they would never have been involved in if it weren't for greed.

Anyway, it is great that you had contact with Tom. I wonder why Myth Busters never tested Bedini's designs??? As I have seen on the MEGbuilders forum http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/MEG_builders/message/1321 that the materials of Tom's device have to be exact for it to work effectively. I am not sure the Myth Busters have enough intelligence to understand the concept. For a start I wonder who arranged that they ridicule the design?

The thing that makes me feel good is to know that I am not involved in any of the corruption.

[foobar]

We live in a controlled and profit driven society, if there's a better way of doing something, we don't do it unless someone can make a lot of money from it. Period.

Quite so, doesn't this imply that if somebody could produce surplus electricity from a MEG or Orbo generator, wouldn't you be expecting them to sell that electricity ?

This is why I'm so suspicious of people who claim to have created such a device, but instead of being able to sell the results (i.e. the electricity, or the devices themselves) they want to sell you 'experiment kits' or documents.

To me this is a sign that somebody wants to make money without having to actually produce a working device, because they can't.


So, I will never listen to someone who comes along with the usual remarks and refuses to investigate the possibility so that we can maintain this 'Status Quo'

We must never abandon our gift of reason. It's a precious thing. Without it, we are easily tricked and manipulated. We all respond emotionally to the offer of abundance for nothing, and that's absolutely what these 'free energy' schemes tap into.


Thats the thinking that have stopped electric cars coming too market,

I'm not sure what you mean, there are electric cars on the market.


So I will keep looking for free energy and renewable energy ways and I hope the world adopts the multpile solutions we have available to improve the world and the life's of everyone. Third world included. If I find something, I will shout as loud as I can about it.

That's a noble goal, but you have to spend your limited time wisely. Study the work of the great physicists carefully before rejecting what they've learned. Einstein, Feynman, Gallileo.. these people weren't evil archons trying to lock us into some kind of prison of logic and maths to stop us from accessing magical powers and limitless free energy, they were visionaries, leading us out of ignorance. Their work is certainly incomplete and new discoveries will be made, but their methods, standards of proof and their experiments and predictions need to be understood before going further.

Things like MEG and Orbo are just cheap tricks that don't work, but which appeal to the urge for limitless abundance. Be discriminating, familiarise yourself with physics as it stands before trying to advance beyond it.

[pi3141]

Quite so, doesn't this imply that if somebody could produce surplus electricity from a MEG or Orbo generator, wouldn't you be expecting them to sell that electricity ?

This is why I'm so suspicious of people who claim to have created such a device, but instead of being able to sell the results (i.e. the electricity, or the devices themselves) they want to sell you 'experiment kits' or documents.

To me this is a sign that somebody wants to make money without having to actually produce a working device, because they can't.

I understand, but I also understand that great inventions don't neccessarily make it to market. So I get suspicious that it may in fact be something new. Different programming I guess!



We must never abandon our gift of reason. It's a precious thing. Without it, we are easily tricked and manipulated.

Amen to that, but there should also be people willing to look and discuss, as we are doing.


I'm not sure what you mean, there are electric cars on the market.

Only just!! Yes, we now have the Tesla Roadster and the Riva or GWhizz has been here a few years. But the Peugeot 106 Electrique and Renault Kangoo electric was only available in Europe, the GM EV1 never came to Europe and they didn't manufacture and stopped trials before going to production, the Nissan Rav4 EV never came to Europe. In 1996 Mercedes said they would release an electric A Class version in 1999, in 1999 they said they would release a hydrogen fuel cell instead by 2000's. Stil waiting, the Smart car has been rumured for electric version since it was released, still waiting. There have been occasional small company builds and special orders from some companies. We've had milk floats and there have always been electric vehicles for industrial or commercial use. But an off the car lot floor, factory built by mainstream manufacturer. No not until next year when Renault and BMW introduce their cars.

[foobar]

I understand, but I also understand that great inventions don't neccessarily make it to market. So I get suspicious that it may in fact be something new. Different programming I guess!

If you can generate surplus electricity, it's extremely easy to take it to market by selling it to the power grid. All kinds of independent minded, self-sufficient people do this today, from windmills, solar cells, biomass generators etc..

Here's a community of them http://www.energysavingcommunity.co.uk/exporting-electricity-grid.html

I've never heard of anybody claiming to have built an 'overunity' or 'zeropoint' device managing to do this, have you ? Yet it simply doesn't require massive amounts of capital or marketing expertise, if you can generate surplus electricity, at present, you can sell it pretty straightforwardly.

I think there are psychological forces at work here.

Firstly, there's that siren call of limitless abundance. The idea that you could run your house, or car, or a grain mill with the power given off by a box in the corner that doesn't need any fuel, doesn't depend on the weather and doesn't emit any kind of harmful radiation is obviously extremely appealing.

Secondly, a lot of people get a kick out of tweaking the nose of authority. There's a strong element of 'hah! take that blinkered scientists!' in much of the discussion of alternative energy, aether and other pseudo-scientific subjects on this forum. The bitter irony is that the person who willfully refuses to try and understand current scientific positions, and the mathematical predictions and experimental results that came to underpin them is the one who's being blinkered. Some people really want to believe that if they can imagine something, and it being real would 'feel good', then it is in fact physically real. But reality just doesn't work like that.

[pi3141]

The universe itself, as a whole, is a closed system. Energy can change form, but it doesn't get created or destroyed as such. A solar cell isn't an 'overunity' device or a 'perpetual motion' machine or producing 'energy from nothing', it's a device which converts the energy in light into electrical energy.

Hi Foobar, thanks for that explanation. Very useful.


Even if zero point energy were being extracted, we'd also expect to see all kinds of weird quantum effects as the base state of the space the energy was being extracted from was altered in a fundamental way.

Forgot to ask - can you speculate on this? What sort of effects. I realise it would depend on the method the device emplyed but can you give any general examples.

[foobar]

Forgot to ask - can you speculate on this? What sort of effects. I realise it would depend on the method the device emplyed but can you give any general examples.

You'd probably have an effect on the creation of virtual particle pairs (i.e. there might be less of them) which would go on to affect the forces between electrons and the nucleus, and cause strange things to happen to matter in the region the vacuum energy was being extracted from.

[pi3141]

You'd probably have an effect on the creation of virtual particle pairs (i.e. there might be less of them) which would go on to affect the forces between electrons and the nucleus, and cause strange things to happen to matter in the region the vacuum energy was being extracted from.


Cheers Foobar, can't get my head arond that one!

Also, I've been thinking more about the comment that the universe itself is an isolated system. So a solar panel is not a free energy device because it is receiving energy from the universe, like a windmill. So, I have another question, what about a device that produced energy from an effect caused by its operation, say - momentum, centrifuge or the water hammer effect. If such a device existed, under the isolated system view it would not be receiving energy from another universe, it would be tapping a byproduct force of its own operation?

For instance, a pipe with water pumped through it and an opening and closing valve, at a certain rate would produce the water hammer effect, the energy into and out of the system is accounted for through the pipe. If the water hammer effect was harnassed to produce energy then a potential exists to extract extra energy. It would be opposite to a windmill or solar panel that receives energy from an external source but instead receives energy from a naturally created internal force.

Similarly, -


Plasmas which are shot through a plasma gun ( a magnetic field ) and into a vacuum tube display well defined structures. Plasma structure can evolve into a helical flow composed of two separate streams, one consisting of electrons and the other of protons. The structure maintains a stable shape that can best be described as a cross between a smoke ring and a coiled spring turned in on itself.

So again, a 'self ordering' mechanism in nature, if such an effect could be exploited, in principle, why could such a device not yeild over unity operation?

[supersmell]

For instance, a pipe with water pumped through it and an opening and closing valve, at a certain rate would produce the water hammer effect, the energy into and out of the system is accounted for through the pipe. If the water hammer effect was harnassed to produce energy then a potential exists to extract extra energy. It would be opposite to a windmill or solar panel that receives energy from an external source but instead receives energy from a naturally created internal force.
The water hammer effect doesn't produce any energy. It just converts kinetic energy into potential energy.

[pi3141]

The water hammer effect doesn't produce any energy. It just converts kinetic energy into potential energy.

Thanks for that explanation, I know I'm skating on thin ice, I'm just trying to put out an idea and understand why not.

My main thoughts are on momentum, using it as a flywheel as Steorn appear to be doing. At least thats my theory about it. They build momentum on a frictionless bearing and then tap the momentum. The power required to maintain the spin is reduced due to momentum in the system.


.. a 'self ordering' mechanism in nature, if such an effect could be exploited, in principle, why could such a device not yeild over unity operation?

[supersmell]

Well, if Steorn is getting a fly wheel going with a lot of angular momentum and low friction they could extract a small portion of it's energy and turn it into electricity while adding in a smaller amount of energy from a battery they could create the appearance of energy generation for a while. But they would still use more energy getting the fly wheel up to speed than they could get out of it.

[pi3141]

Ok, cheers.

[foobar]

The first time you see any new device which is supposed to generate energy, the first question to ask is 'what is it converting to get the energy we see?'.

e.g.:-

In a coal fired generator, it's converting the energy in the chemical bonds of the hydrocarbons (which originally got their energy from the Sun during photosynthesis, unless you believe in abiotic oil theories) into heat, which boils water to steam, the pressure of which turns a turbine, which converts mechanical energy into electrical energy..

In a solar panel, it's converting sunlight directly into electricity.

In a nuclear reactor, subatomic matter is being converted into energy during nuclear decay of the fuel rods. This is used to heat water which turns turbines as in a coal station.

[pi3141]

No updates on Steorn yet. They were supposed to be posting results now at the end of February but that came and went apparently they have extended the display and testing. No details who's testing or what the opinions are.

Steorn have also announced they will NOT be releasing the original Jury results as the jurors do not want their names published :confused:
The only thing I could find out was the head juror, nothing else.

Its getting a bit crazy on the forum over there, lots of derogatory comments.
Worryingly the forum is titled - 'Fuels Fools and Tools. Make of that what you will.

[moving finger]

The first time you see any new device which is supposed to generate energy, the first question to ask is 'what is it converting to get the energy we see?'.



The other question that should always be asked is "what is the energy cost of the device". There's a lot of fuss made about wind turbines, but not much work has gone in to assessing the energy cost of building them, in terms of the raw materials used to make them, the processing of those raw materials, and the transportation and construction cost involved in building the end product.

Likewise with this power source (if that is what it turns out to be): what will it cost in energy terms to produce? How much of its working life will be spent repaying the energy it cost to produce it?

[biblegirl]

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

When watching this video, it is important to note that the physics equations such as V=IR , P=I^2R that reside within the second law of thermodynamic framework is rendered irrelevent. Now, the skeptical people and engineers would ask me, how is it possible that anything can possibly violate the second law of thermodynamics? What this bunch of people dont know is that if you go buy an Oxford dictionary of Physics, at least one thirds of the phrases and words in it are phenomenas in violation of the second law of thermodynamics. But that does not mean the second law of thermodynamics itself is wrong. The problem with these people is while they claim themselves to be objective and scientific, do not actually know the scientific process well enough and do not have a tad bit of critical thinking and observation skills enough to even make sound judgements of nature. While the little they know (called classical physics) seems like a valid scientific model which is correct when applied appropriately in its own domain from which it is postulated, their dogmatic minds wants to extrapolate these theories into every nook and cranny of the universe such that all other valid postulation and observations are rendered inperceivable. Even with compelling evidence and repeatable experiments, some of these dogmatic minds will still prefer their status quo of self-denial. But there are genuine scientific minds out there in the twenty firts century that I sincerely believe will accept, digest, investigate and perform genuine qualitative and quantitative mental abstraction as well as experimentation on the phenomena. Lets focus our energy on this keen society that is really what the scientific community is about instead of wasting our energy on the dogmatic and slow progressing skeptical society that is epitome of all arbitrary impositions.

[griswald]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVeiDRFBLUg

Excellent video Biblegirl.

When we think outside of the box, it just goes to show what little we know, or think we know.;)

griswald

[pi3141]

New announcement from Steorn -


SKDB LAUNCH

Dublin, Ireland, 1st April 2010.

Following the success of its recent live demonstrations of Orbo technology at the Waterways Visitor Centre in Dublin, Steorn is delighted to announce that its online development community will open for membership on 1st April 2010.

Orbo is a new technology from Steorn that provides free, clean and constant energy at the point of use. Orbo is controversial - it is an "over-unity" technology, meaning that it produces more energy than it consumes.

The Steorn Knowledge Development Base (SKDB), as the online community is known, is a collaborative environment designed to share, explain, employ and expand the science, engineering and intellectual property comprising Orbo technology. In short, it is ground zero for the Orbo revolution.

The SKDB will be the sole medium for the dissemination of Orbo technology and its future enhancements. All developments and improvements to Orbo technology will be shared amongst the members of the SKDB for further research and development.

The main focus of the SKDB at launch will be on the solid state electromagnetic configuration of Orbo, the development of which Steorn has recently completed.

Access to the SKDB will be granted via the SKDB Developer License, which will be available online to developers, individual enthusiasts, researchers and all other interested parties as of 1st April 2010. The Developer License and SKDB membership are renewable on an annual basis, subject to interested parties confirming their acceptance of the License and Terms of Service and payment of license and membership fees.

ends



Calorimetric Test Results -

(The lab who undertook the tests have not been identified.)


Analysis of an Orbo electromagnetic system through three experiments and a finite element computer simulation

http://www.steorn.com/orbo/eorbo/5-calorimetric-tests.aspx




They've also announced a solid state Orbo on a video on their homepage -

http://www.steorn.com/

[spock]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fVeiDRFBLUg


thanks for that.
i like seeing normal looking dudes with great workshops and machinery.
he made me laugh at the end when he said

input wires are relatively small, whereas the output wires are relativley real big

[pi3141]

Testing of the Orbo Evaluation and Development Unit

Link - YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

Tested 25th Septmenber, Video Posted 29th September 2010


More - Hugh Deasy Blogspot

Link -http://hdeasy.blogspot.com/