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lightgiver
19-07-2009, 07:58 PM
Indeed.

Sadly I have bad experiences of new age healers. they are not always what they claim to be. One hurt me at a conference and apologised for it after I (walked up to a stranger) approached her about it (her bloke went ape as apparently she has a good reputation, but she was ok about it), while the other sort of took it upon herself to tell me that someone had recently tried (and obviously I guess failed) to kill me and who tried to perform all sorts of witch type stuff as we were talking at a party. Hence I am a wee bit skeptical of healers. The only other one that I met told me that Jesus focused his energy through him and he could heal simply by touching - gave me lots of examples of his success but never proved it to me though, and I know a lot of ill people.

Apologies to any new age healers here, but my experiences have been less than nice.

I will just heal the masonic world and humanity and this planet:D With lighgivers assistance;)

I am sure we are all capable of healing if we apply effort, wisdom and compassion with a little wrathfulness thrown in for good measure ;):D

Yep better watch out for the skin deep.

stewart edwards
19-07-2009, 08:03 PM
I am sure we are all capable of healing if we apply effort, wisdom and compassion with a little wrathfulness thrown in for good measure ;):D

Yep better watch out for the skin deep.Agreed, as evidinced by an argument leading to breakups while a cuddle can lead to a new beginning:eek:

Just to explain esoterics in mundane terms to those who think it airy fairy.

lightgiver
20-07-2009, 02:08 AM
The Secret of the Universe is the name given to the ancient knowledge of the inner workings of the universe. This includes (but is not limited to) the method by which huge megaliths can be reduced in weight and lifted, something also known to the Freemasons and the builder of Coral Castle up to the mid 1900's.

This building technique is the focus of this website, though secrets in close proximity allow for additional exotic abilities. The techniques are unknown to mainstream science and society, though they are timeless. Advanced technology is not required, only a developed understanding of the hidden properties of magnetism, aspects which remain unrecognised. The field can be manipulated with primitive means, it is merely knowing the specifics of how to do it.

Since the beginning of time this information has been held only by small numbers of people, limited to secret societies, kings, queens, and other great people going back thousands of years - rulers in Mesopotamia and beyond. These secrets are the ones that history fails to record – though they are responsible for so much.

Most recently, Edward Leedskalnin (1887 - 1951) used this knowledge to build Coral Castle, an impressive stone structure south of Miami in Florida. Not surprisingly, Coral Castle has continued to mystify modern scientists as to the method used in its construction.

Related information and concepts are encoded in architecture and art at thousands of locations around the world. By using the clues left behind at Coral Castle by Leedskalnin, and those at a Grand Masonic Lodge in Philadelphia (the finest Grand Lodge in the world), you will see that it is possible to unravel these secrets for ourselves.

http://www.code144.com/

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PM08HAF4uUc

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OD0xfWjOLLM

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CWvSpiEQQl4

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WaEAxq_4nJg

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p-MWV4MvZsw

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ihJd9brWQyg

Bump

lightgiver
23-07-2009, 06:42 PM
"I have discovered the secrets of the pyramids, and have found out how the Egyptians
and the ancient builders in Peru, Yucatan, and Asia, with only primitive tools, raised and
set in place blocks of stone weighing many tons!" ---Edward Leedskalnin

http://www.omogenia.com/forum/showtopic.php?tid/51676/

Check our this link,http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=74334

bluehorseman
23-07-2009, 11:43 PM
Interesting vids I'm keen to repeoduce this device once I have finished another project I'm working on should be fun(like jigsaw puzzle fun) to figure out how to complete it, for examp[le where does the mini pyramid sit on the wheel on the side you can see in the video or the oposite side, how does one rotate the fly wheel and at how many revolutions/sec,min, hour? How is it mounted? what material does the pyramid have to be made out of? I don't suppose you know anything more about it do you? (anychance of digging out some blueprints lol!)

lightgiver
24-07-2009, 06:47 PM
An extremely rare 17th Century Rosicrucian depiction tells the startling story -- a future Garden of Eden is planned, to be ruled by the Serpent!

http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/9976/gardenedenfuture21611kj.jpg (http://img188.imageshack.us/i/gardenedenfuture21611kj.jpg/)

NEW WORLD ORDER = NEW GARDEN OF EDEN

"And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." (Genesis 3:4-5)

The Kabala is the keystone of all Western occult thought and practice today, and is the cornerstone of belief for all Illumined Ones [Masters of the Illuminati] throughout the world.

http://cuttingedge.org/news/n1516.cfm

Whether an occultist is White Magic or Black Magick, their cornerstone of belief and thought is the Kabala. When Antichrist arises, he shall be basing his practice of the occult on the Jewish Kabala. Thus, the irony is that, when Antichrist strides out of the newly-built Jewish Temple after committing the "Abomination of Desolation" and begins his effort to slaughter every Jew on earth, the Jewish Kabala will have provided the major impetus for his efforts! Indeed, the Kabala formed the cornerstone of Adolf Hitler's occult beliefs, so this terrible irony will strike the Jewish people twice in world history(not if they know this INFORMATION)

http://www.cuttingedge.org/detail.cfm?ID=44

LH reckons he is the Messiah?? Is it you LH?

lightgiver
29-07-2009, 10:37 PM
http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/9976/gardenedenfuture21611kj.th.jpg (http://img188.imageshack.us/i/gardenedenfuture21611kj.jpg/)

* Notice that traditional pagan representations of the Sun and the Moon are pictured at the upper left and right, respectively. These symbols reveal that the entire future Garden of Eden on earth will be established under pagan power.

* Notice that the Old World Order is pictured as a man in a coffin under the feet of Adam and Eve. Not only does the Plan call for the violent destruction of the Old World Order so the New can come into reality, but it calls for the Old Order to be destroyed in a 7-year "Cleansing Cycle of the Earth". Thus, this future paradise pictured here can only be realized once the Old Order has been "cleansed" and thoroughly destroyed.

http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/1427/aaa2stpeterssquarevatic.jpg (http://img41.imageshack.us/i/aaa2stpeterssquarevatic.jpg/)

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/6088/sunearthelectromaneticf.gif (http://img17.imageshack.us/i/sunearthelectromaneticf.gif/)

worldchange
30-07-2009, 05:09 AM
I currently live in a small Northern Canadian town. There is a free masons hall around the corner from my employer.
I believe allot of myth surrounds this group, allot like the Catholic and Jewish religions.
W/O being present at the current moment, they concern me, mainly in there business practices.
pain and loss have followed this organization, only more truth can come out now.

We all welcome it

World Change

grandsecretary
30-07-2009, 10:47 AM
What are you on about?

These teachings(HYT)and (YOGA) were around a long time before crowley if you are on about the above,crowley just copied them and incorporated some other esoteric teachings,totally confusing everything.

I follow a pure Lineage not some disinfo knowledge.

Buddha was the First Legislator

The first Masonic Legislator whose memory is preserved to us by history, was Buddha, who, about a thousand years before the Christian era, reformed the religion of Manous. He called to the Priesthood all men, without distinction of caste, who felt themselves inspired by God to instruct men. Those who so associated themselves formed a Society of Prophets under the name of Samaneans. They recognized the existence of a single uncreated God, in whose bosom everything grows, is developed and transformed

and GS do you really believe in god,from my interaction with you and seeing your interaction with others,you do not know GOD or the meaning of GOD.

It appears to me True Masonry is fractured.

Not only do I believe in God but I am full of admiration for this posting with its description of Free Masonry where all men are called to the Priesthood, inspired by God to instruct men.

You are full of surprises. I hope that Mike and thelonius are reading this because now they know what a true Free Mason is, and it took a non-Mason to tell them. Ordination into the Masonic Priesthood takes place in the Holy Orders of the Royal Arch. Without this, there can be no Free Masonry.

The rituals of the Anglo-Saxon Masonic Priesthood came to York in the early 10th century with the Céli Dé Monks a Masonic Order. Their Holy Order was centered in York at St Peter's, now the York Minster. Their Order was chartered by King Athelstan in AD 926 so that all Masons would be ordained into the Masonic Priesthood, and the core rituals so to do, are still with us to this very day, promulgated by The Grand Lodge of All England.

The Céli Dé Monks had a firm pre-Davidic Celtic/Druidic ancestry.

lightgiver
30-07-2009, 10:31 PM
Not only do I believe in God but I am full of admiration for this posting with its description of Free Masonry where all men are called to the Priesthood, inspired by God to instruct men.

You are full of surprises. I hope that Mike and thelonius are reading this because now they know what a true Free Mason is, and it took a non-Mason to tell them. Ordination into the Masonic Priesthood takes place in the Holy Orders of the Royal Arch. Without this, there can be no Free Masonry.

The rituals of the Anglo-Saxon Masonic Priesthood came to York in the early 10th century with the Céli Dé Monks a Masonic Order. Their Holy Order was centered in York at St Peter's, now the York Minster. Their Order was chartered by King Athelstan in AD 926 so that all Masons would be ordained into the Masonic Priesthood, and the core rituals so to do, are still with us to this very day, promulgated by The Grand Lodge of All England.

The Céli Dé Monks had a firm pre-Davidic Celtic/Druidic ancestry.

TBH GS even though we do not always see eye to eye,I do trust you more than some others on here,at least you show your face,and I trust your brand of masonry more than the UGLE elite bunch;)

and I believe true freemasonry can be a force for good.:)and I do know you believe in GOD that was just a wind up.

I am sure Marpat will troll this one with some more dis info.Ha Ha.The last word and all that,and I can bet he posts no info.

marpat
30-07-2009, 10:35 PM
http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/9976/gardenedenfuture21611kj.th.jpg (http://img188.imageshack.us/i/gardenedenfuture21611kj.jpg/)

* Notice that traditional pagan representations of the Sun and the Moon are pictured at the upper left and right, respectively. These symbols reveal that the entire future Garden of Eden on earth will be established under pagan power.

* Notice that the Old World Order is pictured as a man in a coffin under the feet of Adam and Eve. Not only does the Plan call for the violent destruction of the Old World Order so the New can come into reality, but it calls for the Old Order to be destroyed in a 7-year "Cleansing Cycle of the Earth". Thus, this future paradise pictured here can only be realized once the Old Order has been "cleansed" and thoroughly destroyed.

http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/1427/aaa2stpeterssquarevatic.jpg (http://img41.imageshack.us/i/aaa2stpeterssquarevatic.jpg/)

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/6088/sunearthelectromaneticf.gif (http://img17.imageshack.us/i/sunearthelectromaneticf.gif/)

You follow a religion that would be classed as pagan by christians

grandsecretary
31-07-2009, 09:59 AM
You follow a religion that would be classed as pagan by christians

Perhaps so,but they would be wrong. We should all be made aware of the history and foundations of Christianity in England, pre and post-Rome. It was firmly Celtic/Druidic. Take another look at your graphic. Very interesting indeed.

marpat
31-07-2009, 12:05 PM
Perhaps so,but they would be wrong. We should all be made aware of the history and foundations of Christianity in England, pre and post-Rome. It was firmly Celtic/Druidic. Take another look at your graphic. Very interesting indeed.

I was actually referring to LG's buddhist beliefs. I am familiar with the pagan background in christianity. Some of their ideas are stolen directly from Mithraism.

LG does like quoting his scriptures though but I think he forgot about the bit where it says 'Judge not'

grandsecretary
31-07-2009, 12:18 PM
I am familiar with the pagan background in christianity. Some of their ideas are stolen directly from Mithraism.

Surely Pagan beliefs pre-dated Roman Mithraism by some considerable margin?

marpat
31-07-2009, 12:21 PM
Surely Pagan beliefs pre-dated Roman Mithraism by some considerable margin?

Indeed, I think that these things just develop from earlier sources and are then modified with contemporary ideas. Look at the madonna and child statues, they are copies of Isis and Horus. I guess there is nothing new under the sun, just a bit repackaged.

grandsecretary
31-07-2009, 01:22 PM
Indeed, I think that these things just develop from earlier sources and are then modified with contemporary ideas. Look at the madonna and child statues, they are copies of Isis and Horus. I guess there is nothing new under the sun, just a bit repackaged.

Could not agree with you more. Nothing new under the Sun. Thanks for this.

lightgiver
31-07-2009, 10:20 PM
Masonic beliefs and practises.

The Romans hijacked the teachings of the The Order of Nazorean Essenes,research Constantine the sun worshipper.

Typical Romans they are still at it today Bulling everyone.
http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/3161/vachequirit.jpg (http://img20.imageshack.us/i/vachequirit.jpg/)

http://img19.imageshack.us/img19/7245/knightshospitaller.jpg (http://img19.imageshack.us/i/knightshospitaller.jpg/)

http://img33.imageshack.us/img33/5060/403pxpalaiologosdynasty.png (http://img33.imageshack.us/i/403pxpalaiologosdynasty.png/)
http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/5899/espvaticanpopechavezsff.jpg (http://img31.imageshack.us/i/espvaticanpopechavezsff.jpg/)Hypocrites and parasites
I suddenly want to throw up.

grandsecretary
01-08-2009, 09:55 AM
lightgiver you are barking up the wrong tree here. The Moderns form of freemasonry was constituted (1723) as a pro-protestant, pro-Hanover, anti- Catholic organisation.

It is no coincidence that Theophilus Desaguliers was a rabid, anti-Catholic. He was a Huguenot who escaped to England following the Revocation of the Edict of Nantes and never forgave Rome.

Dr Anderson, who wrote the Moderns Constitutions (1723 and 1738) was an anti-Catholic Scottish Presbyterian Minister.

And, the Catholic Church is even more anti-Mason than you are.

keystone
01-08-2009, 11:09 AM
And, the Catholic Church is even more anti-Mason than you are.The establishment of the Catholic Church is anti-freemasonry for canonical reasons not liturgical ones. I'm not convinced he is anti-freemasonry. I think he's anti some masons and thats quite a different thing.

Cheers

keystone
01-08-2009, 11:41 AM
The Moderns form of freemasonry was constituted (1723) as a pro-protestant, pro-Hanover, anti- Catholic organisation.

"But though in ancient Times Masons were charg’d in every Country to be of the Religion of that Country or Nation, whatever it was, yet ‘tis now thought more expedient only to oblige them to that Religion in which all Men agree, leaving their particular Opinions to themselves; that is, to be good Men and true, or Men of Honour and Honesty, by whatever Denominations or Persuasions they may be distinguish’d; whereby Masonry becomes the Center of Union, and the Means of conciliating true Friendship among Persons that must have remain'd at a perpetual Distance. "

If you say so.

Desaguliers was a rabid, anti-Catholic......... Dr Anderson,...... was an anti-Catholic Scottish Presbyterian Minister.

Anti Catholic Church from a personal perspective or anti-catholic religion?

Cheers

solarwindspirit
01-08-2009, 12:12 PM
The establishment of the Catholic Church is anti-freemasonry for canonical reasons not liturgical ones. I'm not convinced he is anti-freemasonry. I think he's anti some masons and thats quite a different thing.



Cheers


The true founder of the Illuminati was not Adam Weishaupt, contrary to what many people think. This was a lie set up by the Vatican to cover up their connections with this satanic society. Weishaupt was just a nobody, somebody to channel the blame to. This made people look away from the Vatican.
If it weren’t for people like Alberto Rivera, an ex-Roman Catholic Jesuit then the people would have no idea about this. The true founder of the illuminati was a man by the name of Ignatius De Loyola.

The Illuminati was created to work to carry out and complete these two objectives: Apostolic Succession and Temporal Power (See The Catholic Handsign for more.). The Pope gave the founder limitless powers to carry out these goals, they have been described as a Pope’s Militia. Since then they have been fulfilled, but this did not mean that they would shut down. The Illuminati is one of the Vatican’s strongest arms today

keystone
01-08-2009, 12:42 PM
The true founder of the illuminati was a man by the name of Ignatius De Loyola.First Jesuit Superior general!

You are describing the Jesuits not the Illuminati but Illuminati is only a lebel anyway. And you are correct The Jesuits are the Vaticans' strongest arm today.

Cheers

grandsecretary
01-08-2009, 09:19 PM
"But though in ancient Times Masons were charg’d in every Country to be of the Religion of that Country or Nation, whatever it was, yet ‘tis now thought more expedient only to oblige them to that Religion in which all Men agree, leaving their particular Opinions to themselves; that is, to be good Men and true, or Men of Honour and Honesty, by whatever Denominations or Persuasions they may be distinguish’d; whereby Masonry becomes the Center of Union, and the Means of conciliating true Friendship among Persons that must have remain'd at a perpetual Distance. "

If you say so.



Anti Catholic Church from a personal perspective or anti-catholic religion?

Cheers

Rabidly Anti-Roman Catholicism, remembering that the Holy Roman Church considers that IT and IT alone is the one true Church.

grandsecretary
01-08-2009, 09:22 PM
The true founder of the Illuminati was not Adam Weishaupt, contrary to what many people think. This was a lie set up by the Vatican to cover up their connections with this satanic society. Weishaupt was just a nobody, somebody to channel the blame to. This made people look away from the Vatican.
If it weren’t for people like Alberto Rivera, an ex-Roman Catholic Jesuit then the people would have no idea about this. The true founder of the illuminati was a man by the name of Ignatius De Loyola.

The Illuminati was created to work to carry out and complete these two objectives: Apostolic Succession and Temporal Power (See The Catholic Handsign for more.). The Pope gave the founder limitless powers to carry out these goals, they have been described as a Pope’s Militia. Since then they have been fulfilled, but this did not mean that they would shut down. The Illuminati is one of the Vatican’s strongest arms today

Oh no, sorry. This sounds like prejudice trying to find a home. If you have any evidence of this, I am sure that we would be very grateful. Are there any reputable sources for your theory?

lightgiver
01-08-2009, 09:54 PM
Then if you know so much why don't you share it?
Now that's not your real face (http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/biography/pius_ix/freemason.html)either now is it?

lightgiver you are banking up the wrong tree here! lol

Hey solar wind instead of one liners get to the point.LOL:rolleyes:Explain.

I am not barking up no tree.

The Vatican and the rest of em are stinking corrupt ,end of,and everyone is being led up the garden path.

lightgiver
01-08-2009, 11:08 PM
[QUOTE=lightgiver;1163113]

Well ,
I'm glad someone is open minded here
I know a brother of yours light giver
He spoke of the essenes and ancient gnostics
some secrets he told me about have
resurfaced in the world
He was a metaphysician, chiropractor, reikie master, a healer
in his later years. . .and a extreme force of good
I was priviledged to know him well
He had vivid memories of past lives
and I doubt he would ever have to incarnate
again. . .anyway. . .a mason

What's chilling is this man sports the same name
but anyway a coincidence


------ many mansions

Hi solar wind :)

What's chilling is this man sports the same name
but anyway a coincidence

could you elaborate further please.:)

In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.;)

Hello:

keystone
02-08-2009, 12:16 AM
Rabidly Anti-Roman Catholicism, remembering that the Holy Roman Church considers that IT and IT alone is the one true Church.

Yes and thats why its anti-masonry. The Rc Church had no control over it at the time because masonry admitted (extract from Andersons Constitutions as reproduced above) men of any faith. That situation hasn't changed.

Cheers

lightgiver
02-08-2009, 12:51 AM
[QUOTE=lightgiver;1163113]

I can't say I know it all
no one does and that is the beginning of gnosis
anyway, Many Mansions refers to a book
a read long ago . .by edgar cayce
that sleeping prophet of ARE
There is also a David Wilcot that
has resurfaced and I knew through
gnosis some few years ago

anyway love and light

Cheers :) Beats 1 liners ;)

We all have to tread carefully in times of universal deceit;but he or she who feels it knows it.

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

Ever heard of the term hoodwinking?

In this very informal documentary produced and directed by Mr.Chris Everard, an author and great film maker, he describes with great detail the Illuminati's and their Satanic influence throughout human history and how it affects our planet as well as our very lives. He talks deeply about the Demonic and Luciferian Illuminati including the Freemasons and how our so called LEADERS/GOVERNMENTS are involved with this very secret society brigade.

It is truly a diabolical scheme the elitistst's are preparing and playing out to take over humanity by desensitizing us with mind control media propaganda that has already brainwashed a massive amount of the World populace. This entire greatly informative film exposes the Illuminati and its origins, the Skull and Bones, secret occultic societies, the ultimate plan of these societies to usher in with relentless force a complete New World Order including a New World Government. The Golden Dawn society is also discussed in depth and also the major importation of drugs by founders of the most powerful secret satanic societies in existence. The Skull and Bones society was actually funded and built using money from opium imported from the continent of Europe by illuminati and Freemasonic groups of people. Aleister Crowley a.k.a. "The Most Evil Man Ever To Live" or "The Beast is discussed. His roots are greatly covered and also his major involvements with the dark side of the occult. The Governmental puppets such as the Bush Family, Tony Blair, and many others. It is is very informal and it only is the honest truth, watch, indulge in the knowledge, feed you soul, and finally you will be treated to the truth!

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

"Believe nothing. No matter where you read it, or who said it, even if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense."
~ Buddha

Neo's Passport in the Matrix Expired on 9/11/2001. ... and discovering we're sitting in a liquid filled pod connected by dozens of attachments to our body.

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

and not one of these cowardly elites would stand man to man in battle;because they are gutless and faceless and that's why they brainwash others to carry out there dirty evil work.

and the masses just baaaaa along to their deceitful tune;taking their shit out on one another.

dusan
02-08-2009, 02:17 AM
it is interesting in deed to see so many "masons" in a forum that is supported by an openly against masonry and free masons...

what are you doing here?
its not that you cant post here, it is a matter of why?
i see you all are seniors membre 2000 post or more ok so you post a lot in a site where most of ideas are aginst you

this site turn you on or something or you just like to prove us wrong
i honestly dont understand.

lyghtkynge
02-08-2009, 06:07 AM
Aggressive attitudes and deep insight, are basically useless, except for yourself (and, yes, those you directly can assist in life). A Gathering Together is required (see below).

Why?

Because They've Got You - Where They Want You.

(Go ahead and Deny It...You're In The Vortex, right now).

Sure, stuff is going down They know about, but The ones on Top, the Highest of Them, have already seen the future scenario Potentials/Potencies, and monitor the Changing/Altering Flows carefully. Some of this is part AI. It's All Levels of Height: The Higher, the Clearer.

Can anybody say, 'the 3rd dimension level?' Hmm? Thought it would sink in: They know things the dwellers of the 3rd (Third dimension) don't. Why again? Because The Universe is Eternal & Infinite...Infinite Potential/Potency, The Dual Two-Way Flow of Energy, One LifeForce, the other, InfluxFlow. That means you can't know it all, Anyone, Ever...Another name for the All is EverAll. Like in Forever, from Pre-Existence.

And you think the Melchizedeks don't know this, what's coming down?

Yes, in The Battling, surprises occur, part of the Chaos (H.Uncertainty Principle) Potential, which may be activated into Potency by those who Know, or have evolved ability.

As another member here said this morning, "They have all the exits covered."

There is only One Way Out of this Duality, which is a Two-Fold Potential:

Annihilation (Return to the Unconscious-Subconscious Soul Pool), or Eternal Progression, which becomes a Potency via Integration. This occurs at The Eye of The Vortex Passaging, with No Guarantees. Of course, some have no Desire to Leave, period. They will Endure the Consequences of this choice, which is spawned of ignorance & innocence.

"What is death in comparison to the possibility of realization?"
("Scales of the Dragon," A.Dragon)

Also, against the illuminati-based agenda(s), please note carefully, and remember, 'myth' is life.

"The history of the planet Earth demonstrates one thing to us. It shows that those in power will test those who are not as powerful. They will use intolerable situations to see how much the less powerful will take before they wake up due to the pain it causes. One of the ways this is done in your Society is through creative lawmaking. It is the process to retain and usurp individual responsibility and place it under the dominion of Society. The more that the numbness has crept in through the enactment of elaborate and confusing distinctions, the more difficult it is to recover one's Freedom. They know that they had been successful in turning the human race into an unmanageable mass that knows its prescribed place in the safety of Society. The sooner the human race wakes up, the sooner the slavemasters must withdraw to reset their strategy. The slavemasters have been defeated many times, but it is a many headed beast. As soon as you chop one head off another attacks from your weak side. They have planned it this way over the centuries of a passage of mythology that I have discussed with you and tried to elucidate for you. All myths have their basis in external reality."
("Scales of the Dragon," A. Dragon)

This means a calm, measured approach is required, a time of Gathering, for the Time Coming to Stand Fast to/for The Created HighSelf.

And this is UnCommandable Being-Presence. So, Either you Assume Rulership, or you will be Ruled.

It's called The Awakening. Yes?

keystone
02-08-2009, 08:54 AM
it is interesting in deed to see so many "masons" in a forum that is supported by an openly against masonry and free masons...Is it? Has it occured to you it might be wrong?

what are you doing here?Free world innit? For the time being anyway.

its not that you cant post here, it is a matter of why?OK I came here first of all because some troll from here (since banned from here) got up a task force and invaded another forum I was a member of. I wasn't the only one. Most have left. I stayed. I don't just post in this sectio of the forum.

.................most of ideas are aginst youNo thats not so.

you just like to prove us wrong i honestly dont understand.Please explain "us".

Why are you polarising? Next thing you'll be saying that you don't understand why a Catholic would post here when there are many anti-Vatican posters. Or the insurance company director isn't welcome because insurance is just a scam to bleed the masses dry. Sorry it doesn't make sense.

I'd suggest you read a few more posts.

Cheers

solarwindspirit
02-08-2009, 09:54 AM
[QUOTE=lightgiver;1163203]

You like to quote scriptures but did you forget "judge not'? if not then who made you the judge of freemasons?

Who said I was 'judging' freemasons?

What gives you the idea. . .it's what IS

What scripture was I quoting?

Are you judging me that I'm judging you

I simple had a question about a video. . .

If I have a mind to judge right I will

That is why I have a MIND

It's the light you see it in. . .if that's the reflection
that I give you and you can't seem to understand
anything other than concrete thinking . . .so be it

----------------------------------------------------------
There all gone. . .I admit I'm a bit more of a
complainer than someone who 'judges' others though
and it helps not

Wiped Clean. . .the quotes. . .lol hope it makes you feel better

marpat
02-08-2009, 12:06 PM
Who said I was 'judging' freemasons?

What gives you the idea. . .it's what IS

What scripture was I quoting?

Are you judging me that I'm judging you

I simple had a question about a video. . .

If I have a mind to judge right I will

That is why I have a MIND

It's the light you see it in. . .if that's the reflection
that I give you and you can't seem to understand
anything other than concrete thinking . . .so be it

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There all gone. . .I admit I'm a bit more of a
complainer than someone who 'judges' others though
and it helps not

Wiped Clean. . .the quotes. . .lol hope it makes you feel better

That was directed at LG. Quotes in wrong place.

grandsecretary
02-08-2009, 11:13 PM
Yes of course it is in the detail but thats what it boils down to in the final analysis.

It is a factor:

HUMANUM GENUS

ENCYCLICAL OF POPE LEO XIII ON FREEMASONRY APRIL 20, 1884

To the Patriarchs, Primates, Archbishops, and Bishops of the Catholic World in Grace and Communion with the Apostolic See.

The race of man, after its miserable fall from God, the Creator and the Giver of heavenly gifts, "through the envy of the devil," separated into two diverse and opposite parts, of which the one steadfastly contends for truth and virtue, the other of those things which are contrary to virtue and to truth. The one is the kingdom of God on earth, namely, the true Church of Jesus Christ; and those who desire from their heart to be united with it, so as to gain salvation, must of necessity serve God and His only-begotten Son with their whole mind and with an entire will. The other is the kingdom of Satan, in whose possession and control are all whosoever follow the fatal example of their leader and of our first parents, those who refuse to obey the divine and eternal law, and who have many aims of their own in contempt of God, and many aims also against God.

2. This twofold kingdom St. Augustine keenly discerned and described after the manner of two cities, contrary in their laws because striving for contrary objects; and with a subtle brevity he expressed the efficient cause of each in these words: "Two loves formed two cities: the love of self, reaching even to contempt of God, an earthly city; and the love of God, reaching to contempt of self, a heavenly one."[1] At every period of time each has been in conflict with the other, with a variety and multiplicity of weapons and of warfare, although not always with equal ardor and assault. At this period, however, the partisans of evil seems to be combining together, and to be struggling with united vehemence, led on or assisted by that strongly organized and widespread association called the Freemasons. No longer making any secret of their purposes, they are now boldly rising up against God Himself. They are planning the destruction of holy Church publicly and openly, and this with the set purpose of utterly despoiling the nations of Christendom, if it were possible, of the blessings obtained for us through Jesus Christ our Savior. Lamenting these evils, We are constrained by the charity which urges Our heart to cry out often to God: "For lo, Thy enemies have made a noise; and they that hate Thee have lifted up the head. They have taken a malicious counsel against Thy people, and they have consulted against Thy saints. They have said, 'come, and let us destroy them, so that they be not a nation'."

3. At so urgent a crisis, when so fierce and so pressing an onslaught is made upon the Christian name, it is Our office to point out the danger, to mark who are the adversaries, and to the best of Our power to make head against their plans and devices, that those may not perish whose salvation is committed to Us, and that the kingdom of Jesus Christ entrusted to Our charge may not stand and remain whole, but may be enlarged by an ever-increasing growth throughout the world.

4. The Roman Pontiffs Our predecessors, in their incessant watchfulness over the safety of the Christian people, were prompt in detecting the presence and the purpose of this capital enemy immediately it sprang into the light instead of hiding as a dark conspiracy; and, moreover, they took occasion with true foresight to give, as it were on their guard, and not allow themselves to be caught by the devices and snares laid out to deceive them.

5. The first warning of the danger was given by Clement XII in the year 1738,[3] and his constitution was confirmed and renewed by Benedict XIV.[4] Pius VII followed the same path;[5] and Leo XII, by his apostolic constitution, Quo Graviora,[6] put together the acts and decrees of former Pontiffs on this subject, and ratified and confirmed them forever. In the same sense spoke Pius VIII,[7] Gregory XVI,[8] and, many times over, Pius IX.[9]

6. For as soon as the constitution and the spirit of the masonic sect were clearly discovered by manifest signs of its actions, by the investigation of its causes, by publication of its laws, and of its rites and commentaries, with the addition often of the personal testimony of those who were in the secret, this apostolic see denounced the sect of the Freemasons, and publicly declared its constitution, as contrary to law and right, to be pernicious no less to Christendom than to the State; and it forbade any one to enter the society, under the penalties which the Church is wont to inflict upon exceptionally guilty persons. The sectaries, indignant at this, thinking to elude or to weaken the force of these decrees, partly by contempt of them, and partly by calumny, accused the sovereign Pontiffs who had passed them either of exceeding the bounds of moderation in their decrees or of decreeing what was not just. This was the manner in which they endeavored to elude the authority and the weight of the apostolic constitutions of Clement XII and Benedict XIV, as well as of Pius VII and Pius IX.[10] Yet, in the very society itself, there were to be found men who unwillingly acknowledged that the Roman Pontiffs had acted within their right, according to the Catholic doctrine and discipline. The Pontiffs received the same assent, and in strong terms, from many princes and heads of governments, who made it their business either to delate the masonic society to the apostolic see, or of their own accord by special enactments to brand it as pernicious, as, for example, in Holland, Austria, Switzerland, Spain, Bavaria, Savoy, and other parts of Italy.

7. But, what is of highest importance, the course of events has demonstrated the prudence of Our predecessors. For their provident and paternal solicitude had not always and every where the result desired; and this, either because of the simulation and cunning of some who were active agents in the mischief, or else of the thoughtless levity of the rest who ought, in their own interest, to have given to the matter their diligent attention. In consequence, the sect of Freemasons grew with a rapidity beyond conception in the course of a century and a half, until it came to be able, by means of fraud or of audacity, to gain such entrance into every rank of the State as to seem to be almost its ruling power. This swift and formidable advance has brought upon the Church, upon the power of princes, upon the public well-being, precisely that grievous harm which Our predecessors had long before foreseen. Such a condition has been reached that henceforth there will be grave reason to fear, not indeed for the Church -- for her foundation is much too firm to be overturned by the effort of men -- but for those States in which prevails the power, either of the sect of which we are speaking or of other sects not dissimilar which lend themselves to it as disciples and subordinates.

8. For these reasons We no sooner came to the helm of the Church than We clearly saw and felt it to be Our duty to use Our authority to the very utmost against so vast an evil. We have several times already, as occasion served, attacked certain chief points of teaching which showed in a special manner the perverse influence of Masonic opinions. Thus, in Our encyclical letter, Quod Apostolici Muneris, We endeavored to refute the monstrous doctrines of the socialists and communists; afterwards, in another beginning "Arcanum," We took pains to defend and explain the true and genuine idea of domestic life, of which marriage is the spring and origin; and again, in that which begins "Diuturnum,"[11] We described the ideal of political government conformed to the principles of Christian wisdom, which is marvelously in harmony, on the one hand, with the natural order of things, and, in the other, with the well-being of both sovereign princes and of nations. It is now Our intention, following the example of Our predecessors, directly to treat of the masonic society itself, of its whole teaching, of its aims, and of its manner of thinking and acting, in order to bring more and more into the light its power for evil, and to do what We can to arrest the contagion of this fatal plague.

9. There are several organized bodies which, though differing in name, in ceremonial, in form and origin, are nevertheless so bound together by community of purpose and by the similarity of their main opinions, as to make in fact one thing with the sect of the Freemasons, which is a kind of center whence they all go forth, and whither they all return. Now, these no longer show a desire to remain concealed; for they hold their meetings in the daylight and before the public eye, and publish their own newspaper organs; and yet, when thoroughly understood, they are found still to retain the nature and the habits of secret societies. There are many things like mysteries which it is the fixed rule to hide with extreme care, not only from strangers, but from very many members, also; such as their secret and final designs, the names of the chief leaders, and certain secret and inner meetings, as well as their decisions, and the ways and means of carrying them out. This is, no doubt, the object of the manifold difference among the members as to right, office, and privilege, of the received distinction of orders and grades, and of that severe discipline which is maintained.
Candidates are generally commanded to promise -- nay, with a special oath, to swear -- that they will never, to any person, at any time or in any way, make known the members, the passes, or the subjects discussed. Thus, with a fraudulent external appearance, and with a style of simulation which is always the same, the Freemasons, like the Manichees of old, strive, as far as possible, to conceal themselves, and to admit no witnesses but their own members. As a convenient manner of concealment, they assume the character of literary men and scholars associated for purposes of learning. They speak of their zeal for a more cultured refinement, and of their love for the poor; and they declare their one wish to be the amelioration of the condition of the masses, and to share with the largest possible number all the benefits of civil life. Were these purposes aimed at in real truth, they are by no means the whole of their object. Moreover, to be enrolled, it is necessary that the candidates promise and undertake to be thenceforward strictly obedient to their leaders and masters with the utmost submission and fidelity, and to be in readiness to do their bidding upon the slightest expression of their will; or, if disobedient, to submit to the direst penalties and death itself. As a fact, if any are judged to have betrayed the doings of the sect or to have resisted commands given, punishment is inflicted on them not infrequently, and with so much audacity and dexterity that the assassin very often escapes the detection and penalty of his crime.

10. But to simulate and wish to lie hid; to bind men like slaves in the very tightest bonds, and without giving any sufficient reason; to make use of men enslaved to the will of another for any arbitrary act; to arm men's right hands for bloodshed after securing impunity for the crime -- all this is an enormity from which nature recoils. Wherefore, reason and truth itself make it plain that the society of which we are speaking is in antagonism with justice and natural uprightness. And this becomes still plainer, inasmuch as other arguments, also, and those very manifest, prove that it is essentially opposed to natural virtue. For, no matter how great may be men's cleverness in concealing and their experience in Iying, it is impossible to prevent the effects of any cause from showing, in some way, the intrinsic nature of the cause whence they come. "A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor a bad tree produce good fruit."[12] Now, the masonic sect produces fruits that are pernicious and of the bitterest savor. For, from what We have above most clearly shown, that which is their ultimate purpose forces itself into view -- namely, the utter overthrow of that whole religious and political order of the world which the Christian teaching has produced, and the substitution of a new state of things in accordance with their ideas, of which the foundations and laws shall be drawn from mere naturalism.

11. What We have said, and are about to say, must be understood of the sect of the Freemasons taken generically, and in so far as it comprises the associations kindred to it and confederated with it, but not of the individual members of them. There may be persons amongst these, and not a few who, although not free from the guilt of having entangled themselves in such associations, yet are neither themselves partners in their criminal acts nor aware of the ultimate object which they are endeavoring to attain. In the same way, some of the affiliated societies, perhaps, by no means approve of the extreme conclusions which they would, if consistent, embrace as necessarily following from their common principles, did not their very foulness strike them with horror. Some of these, again, are led by circumstances of times and places either to aim at smaller things than the others usually attempt or than they themselves would wish to attempt. They are not, however, for this reason, to be reckoned as alien to the masonic federation; for the masonic federation is to be judged not so much by the things which it has done, or brought to completion, as by the sum of its pronounced opinions.

12. Now, the fundamental doctrine of the naturalists, which they sufficiently make known by their very name, is that human nature and human reason ought in all things to be mistress and guide. Laying this down, they care little for duties to God, or pervert them by erroneous and vague opinions. For they deny that anything has been taught by God; they allow no dogma of religion or truth which cannot be understood by the human intelligence, nor any teacher who ought to be believed by reason of his authority. And since it is the special and exclusive duty of the Catholic Church fully to set forth in words truths divinely received, to teach, besides other divine helps to salvation, the authority of its office, and to defend the same with perfect purity, it is against the Church that the rage and attack of the enemies are principally directed.

13. In those matters which regard religion let it be seen how the sect of the Freemasons acts, especially where it is more free to act without restraint, and then let any one judge whether in fact it does not wish to carry out the policy of the naturalists. By a long and persevering labor, they endeavor to bring about this result -- namely, that the teaching office and authority of the Church may become of no account in the civil State; and for this same reason they declare to the people and contend that Church and State ought to be altogether disunited. By this means they reject from the laws and from the commonwealth the wholesome influence of the Catholic religion; and they consequently imagine that States ought to be constituted without any regard for the laws and precepts of the Church.

14. Nor do they think it enough to disregard the Church -- the best of guides -- unless they also injure it by their hostility. Indeed, with them it is lawful to attack with impunity the very foundations of the Catholic religion, in speech, in writing, and in teaching; and even the rights of the Church are not spared, and the offices with which it is divinely invested are not safe. The least possible liberty to manage affairs is left to the Church; and this is done by laws not apparently very hostile, but in reality framed and fitted to hinder freedom of action. Moreover, We see exceptional and onerous laws imposed upon the clergy, to the end that they may be continually diminished in number and in necessary means. We see also the remnants of the possessions of the Church fettered by the strictest conditions, and subjected to the power and arbitrary will of the administrators of the State, and the religious orders rooted up and scattered.

15. But against the apostolic see and the Roman Pontiff the contention of these enemies has been for a long time directed. The Pontiff was first, for specious reasons, thrust out from the bulwark of his liberty and of his right, the civil princedom; soon, he was unjustly driven into a condition which was unbearable because of the difficulties raised on all sides; and now the time has come when the partisans of the sects openly declare, what in secret among themselves they have for a long time plotted, that the sacred power of the Pontiffs must be abolished, and that the papacy itself, founded by divine right, must be utterly destroyed. If other proofs were wanting, this fact would be sufficiently disclosed by the testimony of men well informed, of whom some at other times, and others again recently, have declared it to be true of the Freemasons that they especially desire to assail the Church with irreconcilable hostility, and that they will never rest until they have destroyed whatever the supreme Pontiffs have established for the sake of religion.

16. If those who are admitted as members are not commanded to abjure by any form of words the Catholic doctrines, this omission, so far from being adverse to the designs of the Freemasons is more useful for their purposes. First, in this way they easily deceive the simple-minded and the heedless, and can induce a far greater number to become members. Again, as all who offer themselves are received whatever may be their form of religion, they thereby teach the great error of this age -- that a regard for religion should be held as an indifferent matter, and that all religions are alike. This manner of reasoning is calculated to bring about the ruin of all forms of religion, and especially of the Catholic religion, which, as it is the only one that is true, cannot, without great injustice, be regarded as merely equal to other religions.

17. But the naturalists go much further; for, having, in the highest things, entered upon a wholly erroneous course, they are carried headlong to extremes, either by reason of the weakness of human nature, or because God inflicts upon them the just punishment of their pride. Hence it happens that they no longer consider as certain and permanent those things which are fully understood by the natural light of reason, such as certainly are -- the existence of God, the immaterial nature of the human soul, and its immortality. The sect of the Freemasons, by a similar course of error, is exposed to these same dangers; for, although in a general way they may profess the existence of God, they themselves are witnesses that they do not all maintain this truth with the full assent of the mind or with a firm conviction. Neither do they conceal that this question about God is the greatest source and cause of discords among them; in fact, it is certain that a considerable contention about this same subject has existed among them very lately. But, indeed, the sect allows great liberty to its votaries, so that to each side is given the right to defend its own opinion, either that there is a God, or that there is none; and those who obstinately contend that there is no God are as easily initiated as those who contend that God exists, though, like the pantheists, they have false notions concerning Him: all which is nothing else than taking away the reality, while retaining some absurd representation of the divine nature.

18. When this greatest fundamental truth has been overturned or weakened, it follows that those truths, also, which are known by the teaching of nature must begin to fall -- namely, that all things were made by the free will of God the Creator; that the world is governed by Providence; that souls do not die; that to this life of men upon the earth there will succeed another and an everlasting life.

19. When these truths are done away with, which are as the principles of nature and important for knowledge and for practical use, it is easy to see what will become of both public and private morality. We say nothing of those more heavenly virtues, which no one can exercise or even acquire without a special gift and grace of God; of which necessarily no trace can be found in those who reject as unknown the redemption of mankind, the grace of God, the sacraments, and the happiness to be obtained in heaven. We speak now of the duties which have their origin in natural probity. That God is the Creator of the world and its provident Ruler; that the eternal law commands the natural order to be maintained, and forbids that it be disturbed; that the last end of men is a destiny far above human things and beyond this sojourning upon the earth: these are the sources and these the principles of all justice and morality.
If these be taken away, as the naturalists and Freemasons desire, there will immediately be no knowledge as to what constitutes justice and injustice, or upon what principle morality is founded. And, in truth, the teaching of morality which alone finds favor with the sect of Freemasons, and in which they contend that youth should be instructed, is that which they call "civil," and "independent," and "free," namely, that which does not contain any religious belief. But, how insufficient such teaching is, how wanting in soundness, and how easily moved by every impulse of passion, is sufficiently proved by its sad fruits, which have already begun to appear. For, wherever, by removing Christian education, this teaching has begun more completely to rule, there goodness and integrity of morals have begun quickly to perish, monstrous and shameful opinions have grown up, and the audacity of evil deeds has risen to a high degree. All this is commonly complained of and deplored; and not a few of those who by no means wish to do so are compelled by abundant evidence to give not infrequently the same testimony.

20. Moreover, human nature was stained by original sin, and is therefore more disposed to vice than to virtue. For a virtuous life it is absolutely necessary to restrain the disorderly movements of the soul, and to make the passions obedient to reason. In this conflict human things must very often be despised, and the greatest labors and hardships must be undergone, in order that reason may always hold its sway. But the naturalists and Freemasons, having no faith in those things which we have learned by the revelation of God, deny that our first parents sinned, and consequently think that free will is not at all weakened and inclined to evil.[13] On the contrary, exaggerating rather the power and the excellence of nature, and placing therein alone the principle and rule of justice, they cannot even imagine that there is any need at all of a constant struggle and a perfect steadfastness to overcome the violence and rule of our passions.
Wherefore we see that men are publicly tempted by the many allurements of pleasure; that there are journals and pamphlets with neither moderation nor shame; that stage-plays are remarkable for license; that designs for works of art are shamelessly sought in the laws of a so-called verism; that the contrivances of a soft and delicate life are most carefully devised; and that all the blandishments of pleasure are diligently sought out by which virtue may be lulled to sleep. Wickedly, also, but at the same time quite consistently, do those act who do away with the expectation of the joys of heaven, and bring down all happiness to the level of mortality, and, as it were, sink it in the earth. Of what We have said the following fact, astonishing not so much in itself as in its open expression, may serve as a confirmation. For, since generally no one is accustomed to obey crafty and clever men so submissively as those whose soul is weakened and broken down by the domination of the passions, there have been in the sect of the Freemasons some who have plainly determined and proposed that, artfully and of set purpose, the multitude should be satiated with a boundless license of vice, as, when this had been done, it would easily come under their power and authority for any acts of daring.

21. What refers to domestic life in the teaching of the naturalists is almost all contained in the following declarations: that marriage belongs to the genus of commercial contracts, which can rightly be revoked by the will of those who made them, and that the civil rulers of the State have power over the matrimonial bond; that in the education of youth nothing is to be taught in the matter of religion as of certain and fixed opinion; and each one must be left at liberty to follow, when he comes of age, whatever he may prefer. To these things the Freemasons fully assent; and not only assent, but have long endeavored to make them into a law and institution. For in many countries, and those nominally Catholic, it is enacted that no marriages shall be considered lawful except those contracted by the civil rite; in other places the law permits divorce; and in others every effort is used to make it lawful as soon as may be. Thus, the time is quickly coming when marriages will be turned into another kind of contract -- that is into changeable and uncertain unions which fancy may join together, and which the same when changed may disunite.
With the greatest unanimity the sect of the Freemasons also endeavors to take to itself the education of youth. They think that they can easily mold to their opinions that soft and pliant age, and bend it whither they will; and that nothing can be more fitted than this to enable them to bring up the youth of the State after their own plan. Therefore, in the education and instruction of children they allow no share, either of teaching or of discipline, to the ministers of the Church; and in many places they have procured that the education of youth shall be exclusively in the hands of laymen, and that nothing which treats of the most important and most holy duties of men to God shall be introduced into the instructions on morals.

22. Then come their doctrines of politics, in which the naturalists lay down that all men have the same right, and are in every respect of equal and like condition; that each one is naturally free; that no one has the right to command another; that it is an act of violence to require men to obey any authority other than that which is obtained from themselves. According to this, therefore, all things belong to the free people; power is held by the command or permission of the people, so that, when the popular will changes, rulers may lawfully be deposed and the source of all rights and civil duties is either in the multitude or in the governing authority when this is constituted according to the latest doctrines. It is held also that the State should be without God; that in the various forms of religion there is no reason why one should have precedence of another; and that they are all to occupy the same place.

23. That these doctrines are equally acceptable to the Freemasons, and that they would wish to constitute States according to this example and model, is too well known to require proof. For some time past they have openly endeavored to bring this about with all their strength and resources; and in this they prepare the way for not a few bolder men who are hurrying on even to worse things, in their endeavor to obtain equality and community of all goods by the destruction of every distinction of rank and property.

24. What, therefore, sect of the Freemasons is, and what course it pursues, appears sufficiently from the summary We have briefly given. Their chief dogmas are so greatly and manifestly at variance with reason that nothing can be more perverse. To wish to destroy the religion and the Church which God Himself has established, and whose perpetuity He insures by His protection, and to bring back after a lapse of eighteen centuries the manners and customs of the pagans, is signal folly and audacious impiety. Neither is it less horrible nor more tolerable that they should repudiate the benefits which Jesus Christ so mercifully obtained, not only for individuals, but also for the family and for civil society, benefits which, even according to the judgment and testimony of enemies of Christianity, are very great. In this insane and wicked endeavor we may almost see the implacable hatred and spirit of revenge with which Satan himself is inflamed against Jesus Christ. -- So also the studious endeavor of the Freemasons to destroy the chief foundations of justice and honesty, and to co-operate with those who would wish, as if they were mere animals, to do what they please, tends only to the ignominious and disgraceful ruin of the human race.
The evil, too, is increased by the dangers which threaten both domestic and civil society. As We have elsewhere shown, in marriage, according to the belief of almost every nation, there is something sacred and religious; and the law of God has determined that marriages shall not be dissolved. If they are deprived of their sacred character, and made dissoluble, trouble and confusion in the family will be the result, the wife being deprived of her dignity and the children left without protection as to their interests and well being. -- To have in public matters no care for religion, and in the arrangement and administration of civil affairs to have no more regard for God than if He did not exist, is a rashness unknown to the very pagans; for in their heart and soul the notion of a divinity and the need of public religion were so firmly fixed that they would have thought it easier to have city without foundation than a city without God. Human society, indeed for which by nature we are formed, has been constituted by God the Author of nature; and from Him, as from their principle and source, flow in all their strength and permanence the countless benefits with which society abounds. As we are each of us admonished by the very voice of nature to worship God in piety and holiness, as the Giver unto us of life and of all that is good therein, so also and for the same reason, nations and States are bound to worship Him; and therefore it is clear that those who would absolve society from all religious duty act not only unjustly but also with ignorance and folly.

25. As men are by the will of God born for civil union and society, and as the power to rule is so necessary a bond of society that, if it be taken away, society must at once be broken up, it follows that from Him who is the Author of society has come also the authority to rule; so that whosoever rules, he is the minister of God. Wherefore, as the end and nature of human society so requires, it is right to obey the just commands of lawful authority, as it is right to obey God who ruleth all things; and it is most untrue that the people have it in their power to cast aside their obedience whensoever they please.

26. In like manner, no one doubts that all men are equal one to another, so far as regards their common origin and nature, or the last end which each one has to attain, or the rights and duties which are thence derived. But, as the abilities of all are not equal, as one differs from another in the powers of mind or body, and as there are very many dissimilarities of manner, disposition, and character, it is most repugnant to reason to endeavor to confine all within the same measure, and to extend complete equality to the institutions of civil life. Just as a perfect condition of the body results from the conjunction and composition of its various members, which, though differing in form and purpose, make, by their union and the distribution of each one to its proper place, a combination beautiful to behold, firm in strength, and necessary for use; so, in the commonwealth, there is an almost infinite dissimilarity of men, as parts of the whole. If they are to be all equal, and each is to follow his own will, the State will appear most deformed; but if, with a distinction of degrees of dignity, of pursuits and employments, all aptly conspire for the common good, they will present the image of a State both well constituted and conformable to nature.

27. Now, from the disturbing errors which We have described the greatest dangers to States are to be feared. For, the fear of God and reverence for divine laws being taken away, the authority of rulers despised, sedition permitted and approved, and the popular passions urged on to lawlessness, with no restraint save that of punishment, a change and overthrow of all things will necessarily follow. Yea, this change and overthrow is deliberately planned and put forward by many associations of communists and socialists; and to their undertakings the sect of Freemasons is not hostile, but greatly favors their designs, and holds in common with them their chief opinions. And if these men do not at once and everywhere endeavor to carry out their extreme views, it is not to be attributed to their teaching and their will, but to the virtue of that divine religion which cannot be destroyed; and also because the sounder part of men, refusing to be enslaved to secret societies, vigorously resist their insane attempts.

28. Would that all men would judge of the tree by its fruit, and would acknowledge the seed and origin of the evils which press upon us, and of the dangers that are impending! We have to deal with a deceitful and crafty enemy, who, gratifying the ears of people and of princes, has ensnared them by smooth speeches and by adulation. Ingratiating themselves with rulers under a pretense of friendship, the Freemasons have endeavored to make them their allies and powerful helpers for the destruction of the Christian name; and that they might more strongly urge them on, they have, with determined calumny, accused the Church of invidiously contending with rulers in matters that affect their authority and sovereign power. Having, by these artifices, insured their own safety and audacity, they have begun to exercise great weight in the government of States: but nevertheless they are prepared to shake the foundations of empires, to harass the rulers of the State, to accuse, and to cast them out, as often as they appear to govern otherwise than they themselves could have wished. In like manner, they have by flattery deluded the people. Proclaiming with a loud voice liberty and public prosperity, and saying that it was owing to the Church and to sovereigns that the multitude were not drawn out of their unjust servitude and poverty, they have imposed upon the people, and, exciting them by a thirst for novelty, they have urged them to assail both the Church and the civil power. Nevertheless, the expectation of the benefits which was hoped for is greater than the reality; indeed, the common people, more oppressed than they were before, are deprived in their misery of that solace which, if things had been arranged in a Christian manner, they would have had with ease and in abundance. But, whoever strive against the order which Divine Providence has constituted pay usually the penalty of their pride, and meet with affliction and misery where they rashly hoped to find all things prosperous and in conformity with their desires.

29. The Church, if she directs men to render obedience chiefly and above all to God the sovereign Lord, is wrongly and falsely believed either to be envious of the civil power or to arrogate to herself something of the rights of sovereigns. On the contrary, she teaches that what is rightly due to the civil power must be rendered to it with a conviction and consciousness of duty. In teaching that from God Himself comes the right of ruling, she adds a great dignity to civil authority, and on small help towards obtaining the obedience and good will of the citizens. The friend of peace and sustainer of concord, she embraces all with maternal love, and, intent only upon giving help to mortal man, she teaches that to justice must be joined clemency, equity to authority, and moderation to lawgiving; that no one's right must be violated; that order and public tranquillity are to be maintained and that the poverty of those are in need is, as far as possible, to be relieved by public and private charity. "But for this reason," to use the words of St. Augustine, "men think, or would have it believed, that Christian teaching is not suited to the good of the State; for they wish the State to be founded not on solid virtue, but on the impunity of vice."[14] Knowing these things, both princes and people would act with poitical wisdom,[15] and according to the needs of general safety, if, instead of joining with Freemasons to destroy the Church, they joined with the Church in repelling their attacks.
30 .Whatever the future may be, in this grave and widespread evil it is Our duty, venerable brethren, to endeavor to find a remedy. And because We know that Our best and firmest hope of a remedy is in the power of that divine religion which the Freemasons hate in proportion to their fear of it, We think it to be of chief importance to call that most saving power to Our aid against the common enemy. Therefore, whatsoever the Roman Pontiffs Our predecessors have decreed for the purpose of opposing the undertakings and endeavors of the masonic sect, and whatsoever they have enacted to enter or withdraw men from societies of this kind, We ratify and confirm it all by our apostolic authority: and trusting greatly to the good will of Christians, We pray and beseech each one, for the sake of his eternal salvation, to be most conscientiously careful not in the least to depart from what the apostolic see has commanded in this matter.

31. We pray and beseech you, venerable brethren, to join your efforts with Ours, and earnestly to strive for the extirpation of this foul plague, which is creeping through the veins of the body politic. You have to defend the glory of God and the salvation of your neighbor; and with the object of your strife before you, neither courage nor strength will be wanting. It will be for your prudence to judge by what means you can best overcome the difficulties and obstacles you meet with. But, as it befits the authority of Our office that We Ourselves should point out some suitable way of proceeding, We wish it to be your rule first of all to tear away the mask from Freemasonry, and to let it be seen as it really is; and by sermons and pastoral letters to instruct the people as to the artifices used by societies of this kind in seducing men and enticing them into their ranks, and as to the depravity of their opinions and the wickedness of their acts. As Our predecessors have many times repeated, let no man think that he may for any reason whatsoever join the masonic sect, if he values his Catholic name and his eternal salvation as he ought to value them. Let no one be deceived by a pretense of honesty. It may seem to some that Freemasons demand nothing that is openly contrary to religion and morality; but, as the whole principle and object of the sect lies in what is vicious and criminal, to join with these men or in any way to help them cannot be lawful.

32. Further, by assiduous teaching and exhortation, the multitude must be drawn to learn diligently the precepts of religion; for which purpose we earnestly advise that by opportune writings and sermons they be taught the elements of those sacred truths in which Christian philosophy is contained. The result of this will be that the minds of men will be made sound by instruction, and will be protected against many forms of error and inducements to wickedness, especially in the present unbounded freedom of writing and insatiable eagerness for learning.

33. Great, indeed, is the work; but in it the clergy will share your labors, if, through your care, they are fitted for it by learning and a well-turned life. This good and great work requires to be helped also by the industry of those amongst the laity in whom a love of religion and of country is joined to learning and goodness of life. By uniting the efforts of both clergy and laity, strive, venerable brethren, to make men thoroughly know and love the Church; for, the greater their knowledge and love of the Church, the more will they be turned away from clandestine societies.

34. Wherefore, not without cause do We use this occasion to state again what We have stated elsewhere, namely, that the Third Order of St. Francis, whose discipline We a little while ago prudently mitigated,[16] should be studiously promoted and sustained; for the whole object of this Order, as constituted by its founder, is to invite men to an imitation of Jesus Christ, to a love of the Church, and to the observance of all Christian virtues; and therefore it ought to be of great influence in suppressing the contagion of wicked societies. Let, therefore, this holy sodality be strengthened by a daily increase. Amongst the many benefits to be expected from it will be the great benefit of drawing the minds of men to liberty, fraternity, and equality of right; not such as the Freemasons absurdly imagine, but such as Jesus Christ obtained for the human race and St. Francis aspired to: the liberty, We mean, of sons of God, through which we may be free from slavery to Satan or to our passions, both of them most wicked masters; the fraternity whose origin is in God, the common Creator and Father of all; the equality which, founded on justice and charity, does not take away all distinctions among men, but, out of the varieties of life, of duties, and of pursuits, forms that union and that harmony which naturally tend to the benefit and dignity of society.

35. In the third place, there is a matter wisely instituted by our forefathers, but in course of time laid aside, which may now be used as a pattern and form of something similar. We mean the associations of guilds of workmen, for the protection, under the guidance of religion, both of their temporal interests and of their morality. If our ancestors, by long use and experience, felt the benefit of these guilds, our age perhaps will feel it the more by reason of the opportunity which they will give of crushing the power of the sects. Those who support themselves by the labor of their hands, besides being, by their very condition, most worthy above all others of charity and consolation, are also especially exposed to the allurements of men whose ways lie in fraud and deceit. Therefore, they ought to be helped with the greatest possible kindness, and to be invited to join associations that are good, lest they be drawn away to others that are evil. For this reason, We greatly wish, for the salvation of the people, that, under the auspices and patronage of the bishops, and at convenient times, these gilds may be generally restored. To Our great delight, sodalities of this kind and also associations of masters have in many places already been established, having, each class of them, for their object to help the honest workman, to protect and guard his children and family, and to promote in them piety, Christian knowledge, and a moral life. And in this matter We cannot omit mentioning that exemplary society, named after its founder, St. Vincent, which has deserved so well of the lower classes. Its acts and its aims are well known. Its whole object is to give relief to the poor and miserable. This it does with singular prudence and modesty; and the less it wishes to be seen, the better is it fitted for the exercise of Christian charity, and for the relief of suffering.

36. In the fourth place, in order more easily to attain what We wish, to your fidelity and watchfulness We commend in a special manner the young, as being the hope of human society. Devote the greatest part of your care to their instruction; and do not think that any precaution can be great enough in keeping them from masters and schools whence the pestilent breath of the sects is to be feared. Under your guidance, let parents, religious instructors, and priests having the cure of souls use every opportunity, in their Christian teaching, of warning their children and pupils of the infamous nature of these societies, so that they may learn in good time to beware of the various and fraudulent artifices by which their promoters are accustomed to ensnare people. And those who instruct the young in religious knowledge will act wisely if they induce all of them to resolve and to undertake never to bind themselves to any society without the knowledge of their parents, or the advice of their parish priest or director.

37. We well know, however, that our united labors will by no means suffice to pluck up these pernicious seeds from the Lord's field, unless the Heavenly Master of the vineyard shall mercifully help us in our endeavors. We must, therefore, with great and anxious care, implore of Him the help which the greatness of the danger and of the need requires. The sect of the Freemasons shows itself insolent and proud of its success, and seems as if it would put no bounds to its pertinacity. Its followers, joined together by a wicked compact and by secret counsels, give help one to another, and excite one another to an audacity for evil things. So vehement an attack demands an equal defense -- namely, that all good men should form the widest possible association of action and of prayer. We beseech them, therefore, with united hearts, to stand together and unmoved against the advancing force of the sects; and in mourning and supplication to stretch out their hands to God, praying that the Christian name may flourish and prosper, that the Church may enjoy its needed liberty, that those who have gone astray may return to a right mind, that error at length may give place to truth, and vice to virtue. Let us take our helper and intercessor the Virgin Mary, Mother of God, so that she, who from the moment of her conception overcame Satan may show her power over these evil sects, in which is revived the contumacious spirit of the demon, together with his unsubdued perfidy and deceit. Let us beseech Michael, the prince of the heavenly angels, who drove out the infernal foe; and Joseph, the spouse of the most holy Virgin, and heavenly patron of the Catholic Church; and the great Apostles, Peter and Paul, the fathers and victorious champions of the Christian faith. By their patronage, and by perseverance in united prayer, we hope that God will mercifully and opportunely succor the human race, which is encompassed by so many dangers.

38. As a pledge of heavenly gifts and of Our benevolence, We lovingly grant in the Lord, to you, venerable brethren, and to the clergy and all the people committed to your watchful care, Our apostolic benediction.
Given at St. Peter's in Rome, the twentieth day of April, 1884, the sixth year of Our pontificate.

keystone
02-08-2009, 11:29 PM
It is a factor:Humanum Genus - political posturing disguising the true intent. It was for the similar political reasons that the Pope conived with King Philip to suppress the Templars. Notice how the Catholic Encyclopaedia now plays that down and even suggests that Philip acted without the cooperation of the Inquisitors. See Here (http://www.newadvent.org/cathen/14493a.htm). The Templars were too powerful and had too much money for their liking.

Conversely, of course, I suppose an attempt could be made to argue that Andersons Constitutions were written in exactly the same way - for political reasons. I don't buy that though.

Cheers

lightgiver
02-08-2009, 11:34 PM
Do you Free? masons actually attend any lodge meetings,or is this your new meet up.:confused::p

Who cares about the Pope and Vatican they are old hat and sun worshippers,let it go.

it wont be long before the rest of the sun followers realise.

"Hippitus Hoppitus": Animals in Pope Hats - YouTube

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

Crazy pope dance!!! - YouTube

I count resist.

Catholicism's pagan roots - Passin' the Hat - YouTube

The True Origins of the Fish Head Hat
Otherwise Known as the Papal Miter

This hat comes directly from Babylon and is a direct representation of the true roots of Catholicism. It identifies Benedict VXI as the leader of the largest and oldest pagan religious organization on the planet. It is also a direct connection to Nimrod who sought to kill God in retaliation for the flood and Dagon the Fish god who supposedly came up from the sea after the flood and sought to restore the religious practices for which God wiped the earth clean.

In the End Times the weeds will be plainly visible... who knew that they would dress up like fish.

GS could you keep the boring copy and paste jobs shorter please,at least put a vid in or something,make it a bit more exciting.

4 vids posted,if they go missing just quote the post.

keystone
02-08-2009, 11:43 PM
Do you Free? masons actually attend any lodge meetings,or is this your new meet up.:confused::pnot on a Sunday. :p

I count resist.Neither can I:

http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/8487/149735.gif (http://img329.imageshack.us/i/149735.gif/)

Cheers

lightgiver
02-08-2009, 11:46 PM
not on a Sunday. :p

Neither can I:

http://img329.imageshack.us/img329/8487/149735.gif (http://img329.imageshack.us/i/149735.gif/)

Cheers

Or saturn day :D

Cheers :)

why does GS have to do them long winded copy and paste jobs,I nearly fell asleep going through it.

Catholicism's pagan roots - Passin' the Hat - YouTube

Liven the post up GS,he is so 18th century.

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

The bells the bells.

grandsecretary
02-08-2009, 11:48 PM
Do you Free? masons actually attend any lodge meetings,or is this your new meet up.:confused::p

Who cares about the Pope and Vatican they are old hat and sun worshippers,let it go.

it wont be long before the rest of the sun followers realise.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=znMlKFaZnTQ

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aNBC8WbJt_Q

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BNUYLb3Vu_8

I count resist.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y_oA_OMsmZo

The True Origins of the Fish Head Hat
Otherwise Known as the Papal Miter

This hat comes directly from Babylon and is a direct representation of the true roots of Catholicism. It identifies Benedict VXI as the leader of the largest and oldest pagan religious organization on the planet. It is also a direct connection to Nimrod who sought to kill God in retaliation for the flood and Dagon the Fish god who supposedly came up from the sea after the flood and sought to restore the religious practices for which God wiped the earth clean.

In the End Times the weeds will be plainly visible... who knew that they would dress up like fish.

GS could you keep the boring copy and paste jobs shorter please,at least put a vid in or something,make it a bit more exciting.

4 vids posted,if they go missing just quote the post.

It seemed easier to post the whole thing, rather than trying to precis it. Sorry if it bores you as much as it bores me.

lightgiver
02-08-2009, 11:54 PM
It seemed easier to post the whole thing, rather than trying to precis it. Sorry if it bores you as much as it bores me.

I nearly got my sleeping bag out,the pope is over,no point dragging up old sea weed.

Its only a matter of time before folks catch on.

http://img31.imageshack.us/img31/5899/espvaticanpopechavezsff.jpg (http://img31.imageshack.us/i/espvaticanpopechavezsff.jpg/)

Kiss my I mean the ring.

http://img41.imageshack.us/img41/1427/aaa2stpeterssquarevatic.jpg (http://img41.imageshack.us/i/aaa2stpeterssquarevatic.jpg/)

http://img17.imageshack.us/img17/6088/sunearthelectromaneticf.gif (http://img17.imageshack.us/i/sunearthelectromaneticf.gif/)

http://img20.imageshack.us/img20/5572/barackhenatenrenaissanc.jpg (http://img20.imageshack.us/i/barackhenatenrenaissanc.jpg/)

http://img60.imageshack.us/img60/3643/hiramkey.jpg (http://img60.imageshack.us/i/hiramkey.jpg/)

Does your dog bite? - YouTube

Some call it heavenly in it's brilliance
Others, mean and rueful of the Western dream
I love the friends I have gathered together on this thin raft
We have constructed pyramids in honour of our escaping
This is the land where the Pharaoh died

grandsecretary
06-08-2009, 12:12 PM
For Information:

The Ancient and Accepted Rite for England and Wales and its Districts and Chapters Overseas, does not allow Jews to be initiated to the higher degrees of Moderns freemasonry. They are restricted to the first 3 degrees and are excluded from further progression, solely on the grounds that they are not practicing Christians. Neither are they allowed membership of the Invisible College of the Rosicrucians.

The Ancient and Accepted Rite in England, and The Invisible College controls freemasonry under the jurisdiction of The United Grand Lodge of England.

Members of all religions who believe in God and the immortality of souls are welcome to become unrestricted members of The Grand Lodge of All England at York, which is pre-Davidic.

keystone
08-08-2009, 03:31 PM
For Information:

The Ancient and Accepted Rite for England and Wales and its Districts and Chapters Overseas,..........Requires their initiates to profess a trinitarian Christian faith..........

............does not allow Jews to be initiated to the higher degrees of Moderns freemasonry....... and how could they be if they are unableto do so. Thats pretty obvious and that would also include other religions so its not specifically anti-Jew which is what you are implying.

They are restricted to the first 3 degreeswhich are not worked under the English Supreme Council due to jurisdiction over the first 3 degrees being vested in the UGLE so the relevance of your assertation against the Supreme Council is somewhat confusing.

and are excluded from further progression, solely on the grounds that they are not practicing Christians.thats obvious then. If they can'tjoin then they can't progress. Simples!

Neither are they allowed membership of the Invisible College of the Rosicrucians.What is that? The Invisible College being the precursor to the Royal Society OR one of the many Rosicrucian organisations in the world many of which are not considered to be compatible with Freemasonry? Are you saying they are all one and the same?

The Ancient and Accepted Rite in England, and The Invisible College controls freemasonry under the jurisdiction of The United Grand Lodge of England.You keep saying this but provide no evidence. It's worthy of a separate thread which I shall start in due course.

Members of all religions who believe in God and the immortality of souls are welcome to become unrestricted members of The Grand Lodge of All England at York, which is pre-Davidic.Advertising of such a nature on a forum such as this is normally considered to be spamming.

Can you substantiate your pre-Davidic claim? No don't because that will derail the thread. A new thread is needed which, once again, I'll start when you get close to being released from the Naughty Step so that it doesn't get buried whist we wait.

Cheers

lightgiver
09-08-2009, 03:05 AM
An extremely rare 17th Century Rosicrucian depiction tells the startling story -- a future Garden of Eden is planned, to be ruled by the Serpent!

http://img188.imageshack.us/img188/9976/gardenedenfuture21611kj.jpg (http://img188.imageshack.us/i/gardenedenfuture21611kj.jpg/)

NEW WORLD ORDER = NEW GARDEN OF EDEN

"And the serpent said unto the woman, Ye shall not surely die: For God doth know that in the day ye eat thereof, then your eyes shall be opened, and ye shall be as gods, knowing good and evil." (Genesis 3:4-5)

The Kabala is the keystone of all Western occult thought and practice today, and is the cornerstone of belief for all Illumined Ones [Masters of the Illuminati] throughout the world.

http://cuttingedge.org/news/n1516.cfm

Whether an occultist is White Magic or Black Magick, their cornerstone of belief and thought is the Kabala. When Antichrist arises, he shall be basing his practice of the occult on the Jewish Kabala. Thus, the irony is that, when Antichrist strides out of the newly-built Jewish Temple after committing the "Abomination of Desolation" and begins his effort to slaughter every Jew on earth, the Jewish Kabala will have provided the major impetus for his efforts! Indeed, the Kabala formed the cornerstone of Adolf Hitler's occult beliefs, so this terrible irony will strike the Jewish people twice in world history(not if they know this INFORMATION)

http://www.cuttingedge.org/detail.cfm?ID=44

LH reckons he is the Messiah?? Is it you LH?


Bumped for keystone;and yes masonry is pre davidic,i have info on it somewhere:)

Cheers

this should be interesting for you in the meanwhile http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56561

The Céile Dé Priest Masons came from Celtic/Druidic, pre-Davidic roots. I emailed the Grand Secretary myself to confirm the above (freemasonry is a religion ...

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread465952/pg1

keystone
09-08-2009, 08:55 AM
[QUOTE=lightgiver;1179235]Bumped for keystone;and yes masonry is pre davidic,i have info on it somewhere:)

Cheers

this should be interesting for you in the meanwhile http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56561

The Céile Dé Priest Masons came from Celtic/Druidic, pre-Davidic roots./[quote]

Thanks I saw that. I'm going to want HIM to produce HIS scholarly proof. The "claims" which are always related to the heritage of GLAE and particularly to bash UGLE need substantiating. If they can be well and good.

I would be interested to see your data also, thanks.

Cheers

marpat
09-08-2009, 01:53 PM
woof woof :D

No change to your standards of debate then

lightgiver
09-08-2009, 06:16 PM
[QUOTE=lightgiver;1179235]Bumped for keystone;and yes masonry is pre davidic,i have info on it somewhere:)

Cheers
this should be interesting for you in the meanwhile http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=56561
The Céile Dé Priest Masons came from Celtic/Druidic, pre-Davidic roots./[quote]
Cheers

Hi Keystone,;)

something else for you,

Jachin and Boaz explained by Jordan Maxwell - YouTube

YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

IS - RA - EL
What does the name Israel mean?
by Betty Rhodes
Is it just a co-incidence that the name 'Israel' incorporates three gods/goddesses, or is it the reason for the name Israel?
The name 'Israel' according to the Jews, means "God rules", or "God shines"



True IsisISIS

Isis [IS] was an Egyptian Throne Goddess dating back to the 5th dynasty. Her name literally means the feminine aspect of the throne - also the Queen of the throne. However, the hieroglyph for her name used originally meant (female) of flesh, i.e. mortal, and she may simply have represented deified Earthly queens of the World. She was most prominently remembered as the wife of Horus, or, in later periods, as the wife of Osiris and mother of Horus, and was worshiped as the archetypal wife and mother. Isis is the feminine archetype for creation - the goddess of fertility and motherhood. She has gone by many names, such as the 'virgin' Mary, and played many roles in history and mythology -as goddess, virgin, and female creator of life.

Isis represents the feminine aspects of life - male and female alike, for she represents creation, rebirth, reincarnation, Ascension, intuition, psychic abilities, higher frequency vibrations, love and compassion. In other words, she represents nature and all that is natural of our existence. She is the mother nurturer - the High Priestess - the Goddess of creation, and perhaps representing Eve, the first woman and mother of all.
Isis became prominent late in Egyptian history when it began to absorb the cults of many other goddesses. It eventually spread outside Egypt throughout the Middle East and Europe, with temples to her built as far away as the British Isles. Remnants of her worshipers remained in Christian Europe as late as the 6th century, when at that time, her memory was honored as the virgin mother of the Chrisitan god, Jesus. [At right is a photo taken of Betty Rhodes dressed as Isis for an Egyptian theme play in 1978.]

RA EGYPTIAN GODRA

Ra (sometimes spelled Rê) is the sun-god of Heliopolis in ancient Egypt. Ra originally meant "mouth" in the Egyptian language, and was a reference to his creation of the deities of the Ogdoad system, excluding the 8 concepts which created him, by the power of speech (compare how Yahweh was said to have created the world). In later Egyptian dynastic times, Ra was subsumed into the god Horus, as Re-Horakhty (and many variant spellings).
D10
The Eye of Ra,
or the Right Eye of Horus

The sun is either the entire body of Ra, or just his eye. The symbols of Ra are the solar symbols of a golden disk or the symbol ⊙ (circle with a point at its centre). He was also associated with the Phoenix, as he rose again each morning in flames.

The Eye of RA was a symbol that signified royal power, yet on the numeration side denoted a decimal system where round off was set to the first 6-terms. The ancients believed this symbol of indestructibility would assist in rebirth, due to their beliefs about the soul. The more recent tradition of freemasonry adopted the symbol in the form of the Eye of Providence and as such it has survived to this day, and appears as the Eye of Providence on the recto of the Great Seal of the United States. The Eye of Horus (flanked by Nekhbet and Wadjet) was found under the 12th layer of bandages on Tutankhamun's mummy.

Horus was an ancient god in Egyptian mythology who dramatically evolved over the whole of Egyptian history. Early on, he became identified as a sky god, where one of his eyes was the sun, and the other the moon. His weaker eye later became less important in his mythology, and he became more strongly aligned with the sun, particularly when the cult of Thoth, a moon god, arose. As the sun, or rather, with his eye as the sun, his eye had a special meaning, and became a symbol of power when combined with the hieratic aspects of the subject. Originally, Ra held this position, but as Horus gradually became more important, he transformed into a sun god, so Horus became thought of as Ra, or rather Ra-Herakhty ("Ra, who is Horus of the two horizons"). Later Horus-Eye numeration decreased in importance in Egyptian life, with hieratic, demotic and later improvements in Egyptian arithmetic solving the oldest Horus-Eye problem. The oldest Horus-Eye problem was to write any number, like one (1), exactly, without throwing away any piece of the numbe

Ellil
by Micha F. Lindemans
"The Akkadian god of earth and wind. He is the son of Ansar and Kisar, the primordial deities, and the father of the moon god Sin. Together with Ea and Anu he forms a powerful triad of gods in the ancient Mesopotamian religion. He is represented wearing a headband which is decorated with horns. He is equivalent to the Sumerian god Enlil."
Enlil
by Micha F. Lindemans
"In ancient Sumero-Babylonian myth, Enlil ("lord wind") is the god of air, wind and storms. Enlil is the foremost god of the Mesopotamian pantheon, and is sometimes referred to as Kur-Gal ("great mountain"). In the Sumerian cosmology he was born of the union of An heaven and Ki earth. These he separated, and he carried off the earth as his portion. In later times he supplanted Anu as chief god. His consort is Ninlil with whom he has five children: Nanna, Nerigal, Ningirsu, Ninurta, and Nisaba.

Enlil holds possession of the Tablets of Destiny which gives him power over the entire cosmos and the affairs of man. He is sometimes friendly towards mankind, but can also be a stern and even cruel god who punishes man and sends forth disasters, such as the great Flood which wiped out humanity with the exception of Atrahasis. Enlil is portrayed wearing a crown with horns, symbol of his power. His most prestigious temple was in the city Nippur, and he was the patron of that city. His equivalent is the Akkadian god Ellil."


What I also suggest is that EL and YHWH were two separate 'gods' - see: YHWH as Marduk. So we see that the gods El and Yahweh are distinct gods from each other, as distinct as their individual names. Yahweh was worshipped as a war god from the deserts of southern Palestine who migrated north to Judah while El was the god of Israel whose home was Mesopotamia. Historically speaking, the two gods must be regarded as originally distinct that subsequently were related and finally identified through political and religious syncreticism.

http://answers.yahoo.com/question/index?qid=20080221175639AAAjLMc

I suspect you already know this though Keystone,:D

It is good to let others know,for the benefit of all :)

"The first Masonic Legislator, whose memory is preserved to us by history, was Buddha" (Albert Pike Morals and Dogma, p.277). ...

lightgiver
09-08-2009, 06:29 PM
No change to your standards of debate then

I notice you are still insulting everyone over the forum who does not toe your line,:rolleyes::p

http://img22.imageshack.us/img22/8467/dogpeeingonobamasign.jpg (http://img22.imageshack.us/i/dogpeeingonobamasign.jpg/)

QUOTE,
marpat
Senior Member

marpat's Avatar

Join Date: Feb 2008
Posts: 6,063

Fucking hell, this place is so predictable.

UN QUOTE.

1 Of many thousands of marpats insults.

So marpat if its so £$£$£$ predictable what the hell are you doing here,OH we know why.Yep you are soooooo predictable also.

and you have the Gawk to insult me.

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=42060

ms hope
09-08-2009, 11:48 PM
www.whatdotheyknow.com as your councils and MP's, most are in it along with nearly all the Judges

no wonder we have a massive child trafficking problem hidden by the secret family courts behind closed doors

lightgiver
09-08-2009, 11:54 PM
www.whatdotheyknow.com as your councils and MP's, most are in it along with nearly all the Judges

no wonder we have a massive child trafficking problem hidden by the secret family courts behind closed doors


HI ms hope,

check out link,http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=74241

lightgiver
21-08-2009, 10:30 PM
masonic handshakes & jahbulon & baphomet - YouTube

Oh yes they are all on here,the flippin lot of em from all over the world.All peeing in the same pot regardless of culture or country.

and the Human race is being taken for a massive ride.

Will the humans ever get it? I wonder.

the Mason's Keystone: Solving the inner degrees - YouTube

Ezekiel's Vision - YouTube

Ma,at neb men aa ,Ma,at ba aa.

thelonious
24-08-2009, 03:13 PM
"Israel" means "wrestles with God", not "God shines".

Freemasonry is not "pre-Davidic", it is a product of the middle ages, having evolved into its current form in the early 18th century.

The pseudo-Freemasonry of Grand Secretary's organization is less than ten years old.

nihil
24-08-2009, 03:25 PM
An interpretation of the Great Seal, Masonic in nature, taken from Masonry in Texas, Background, History and Influence by James D. Carter, 33°, G.'.C.'.:

Among those who helped design the Great Seal of the United States the following are known to have been Masons: Benjamin Franklin, Thomas Jefferson, William Churchill Houston, and William Barton. The total number of feathers in the two wings is sixty-five which, by gematria, is the value of the Hebrew phrase yam yawchod (together in unity). This phrase appears in Psalm 133 as follows: 'Behold, how good and how pleasant it is for brethren to dwell together in unity,' and is used in the ritual of the first degree of Freemasonry. The glory above the eagle's head is divided into twenty-four equal parts and reminds the observer of the Mason's gauge which is also divided into twenty-four equal parts and is emblematic of the service he is obligated to perform. The arrangement of the stars in the constellation to form overlapping equilateral triangles and the Star of David calls to the Mason's mind King David's dream of building a Temple. The gold, silver, and azure colors represent the sun, moon, and Worshipful Master, the first that rules the day, the second, the night, and the third, the lodge. While silver, connected with the letter Gimel or G and being surrounded on an azure ground by a golden glory, reminds the Mason of the letter G. The shield on the eagle's breast affirms by its colors, valor (red), purity (white), and justice (blue). The value of these colors, by gematria, is 103, the value of the phrase ehben ha-Adam (the stone of Adam) and suggests the perfect ashlar, or squared stone, of Freemasonry. One hundred and three is also the value of the noun bonaim, a Rabbinical word signifying 'builders, Masons.'

nihil
24-08-2009, 03:32 PM
On the reverse, is the All-Seeing Eye within a triangle surrounded by a golden glory. It has a cabalistic value of seventy plus three plus two hundred, equaling two hundred and seventy-three which is the value of the phrase ehben mosu habonim (the stone which the builders refused) familiar to all Royal Arch Masons. It is also the value of the Hebrew proper noun Hiram Abiff, the architect of Solomon's Temple and the principal character of the legend used in the Master Mason degree.

grandsecretary
27-08-2009, 02:11 PM
No connection with Free Masonry:

It has been previously mentioned that in these two priceless documents (The Regius Manuscript c.1390 and The Cooke Manuscript c.1420) which have all the marks of a genuine Saxon transmission, there is not one word which leads us to suppose that the members of the Society thus formed had an idea that their forefathers had wrought at the building of Solomon's temple; and it is impossible to suppose that if the ceremonies then in use had referred to such a circumstance all reference thereto would have been omitted from the Constitution. (SOURCE: THE ARCANE SCHOOL by John Yarker, Chapter VIII, Masonry in Saxon England)


King Solomon's Temple was not the focus of pure and original Anglo-Saxon Free Masonry. The Master Mason's Degree, complete with its fairy story about a character called Hiram Abiff, is a modern invention by Theophilus Desaguliers some time between 1720 and 1730. It is NOT genuine Free Masonry, it is an innovation on Free Masonry.

grandsecretary
27-08-2009, 02:24 PM
"Israel" means "wrestles with God", not "God shines".

Freemasonry is not "pre-Davidic", it is a product of the middle ages, having evolved into its current form in the early 18th century.

The pseudo-Freemasonry of Grand Secretary's organization is less than ten years old.

More ignorant propoganda.

The Grand Lodge of All England wishes to confirm for the purposes of absolute clarity that the legitimacy and authority of The Grand Lodge of All England at York derives from its lawful act of constitutional restitution effected at York on Friday 23rd December 2005 according to English law, European law, Masonic law, Masonic practice and tradition, and upon those ancient laws traditions and landmarks obtained through the practices of Free Masonry since time immemorial.

The legitimacy of The Grand Lodge of All England is enshrined in English Law and Acts of Parliament.

It is pre-Davidic, and it is certainly pre ale-house.

eternal_spirit
27-08-2009, 02:30 PM
No connection with Free Masonry:



King Solomon's Temple was not the focus of pure and original Anglo-Saxon Free Masonry. The Master Mason's Degree, complete with its fairy story about a character called Hiram Abiff, is a modern invention by Theophilus Desaguliers some time between 1720 and 1730. It is NOT genuine Free Masonry, it is an innovation on Free Masonry.
Why and for what reasons would they add this? As you claim it's not part of genuine Anglo Saxon Freemasonry.

grandsecretary
27-08-2009, 02:46 PM
Why and for what reasons would they add this? As you claim it's not part of genuine Anglo Saxon Freemasonry.

It cannot be a part of genuine Anglo-Saxon Free Masonry because this ritual simply did not exist prior to 1720, and probably not until as late as 1730.

"Hiram Abiff was probably never heard of in a Lodge until after 1717 ... The legend of the Third Degree was introduced by the newcomers into Masonry ... (SOURCE: Albert Pike 1886 - Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry by Charles Sumner Lobingier, 1932)

The men who wrote the rituals of the Moderns did not have access to the rituals of genuine Anglo-Saxon Free Masonry, particularly the Orders of The Holy and Royal Arch.

The meeting at The Goose and Gridiron Ale-house on the 24th June 1717 was made up of a mixture of low level renegade Masons who had argued with Sir Christopher Wren (not one single Master of any regular Lodge), and profane non-Masons. How could they have access to the secret rituals of a Free Mason?

"Upon enquiry it would appear, that all their boasted supremacy is derived from an obscure person, who lived about sixty-two years ago, and whose name is not to be found on record amongst Ancient or Modern Masons." ... "Such are the words of the most authentic history amongst Modern Masons, and beyond contradiction prove the origin of their supremacy to be a self-created assembly. Nor was a self- creation the only defect: They were defective in numbers. (SOURCE: Ahiman Rezon, by Laurence Dermott, Grand Secretary of the "Antients" Grand Lodge of Free and Accepted Masons According to the Old Institution, published by Southwick & Hardcastle, 2 Wall Street, New York, 1805)

We do know that they were members of the Rosicrucian Brotherhood, and they used their knowledge of esoteric subjects to invent the story of Hiram Abiff, the building of King Solomon's Temple etc.

These are proven, documented facts.

separ
27-08-2009, 03:01 PM
The meeting at The Goose and Gridiron Ale-house on the 24th June 1717 was made up of a mixture of low level renegade Masons who had argued with Sir Christopher Wren (not one single Master of any regular Lodge), and profane non-Masons. How could they have access to the secret rituals of a Free Mason?

This tends to undermine everything you're saying to us non-Masons don't you think? If your organisation has secrets we can't be privy to, why should we believe your bland assurances?

grandsecretary
27-08-2009, 03:03 PM
This tends to undermine everything you're saying to us non-Masons don't you think? If your organisation has secrets we can't be privy to, why should we believe your bland assurances?

Not at all. And why should I concern myself if you don't? By the way I don't deal in "bland assurances". Everything that I post here is properly sourced and attributed.

Please actually read my postings before you comment rather than assuming that I am associated with others here, which I am not.

separ
27-08-2009, 03:07 PM
And why should I concern myself if you don't?

Choose one personality or the other. You can't be both secretive and open at the same time. It worries me for your sake.

grandsecretary
27-08-2009, 03:11 PM
Choose one personality or the other. You can't be both secretive and open at the same time. It worries me for your sake.

Please read my postings. You are lumping me in with the Moderns form of freemasonry. They and I have no wish for any such confusion. We are certainly not open, we are a closed order with Masonic secrets protected by solemn Oath.

stevepenny
01-09-2009, 12:20 PM
We do know that they were members of the Rosicrucian Brotherhood, and they used their knowledge of esoteric subjects to invent the story of Hiram Abiff, the building of King Solomon's Temple etc.

These are proven, documented facts.

I would argue that you are slightly incorrect in this assertion. There is in existence in the Grand Lodge of Scotland library an Arabic Manuscript of the 14th century, in which reference is made to a Masonic sign or password, which, when translated, read, "We have found our Lord Hiram."

Looking through the archives of the Knight’s Templar it is clear that they were enthusiastic builders of churches in the Holy Land, which must have required considerable assistance from local craftsmen. It is reasonable to assume that this ‘story’ or ‘Temple Legend’ must have been known by the native workmen who may in turn have passed it on to the Knights, who would have brought it back with them to this country.

Fraternally Yours

boots
01-09-2009, 01:11 PM
Not at all. And why should I concern myself if you don't? By the way I don't deal in "bland assurances". Everything that I post here is properly sourced and attributed.

Please actually read my postings before you comment rather than assuming that I am associated with others here, which I am not.

LOL

Your a Mason.

It doesn't matter what clothes you put on a masonic dummy. It's still a Mason.

.

grandsecretary
01-09-2009, 01:27 PM
I would argue that you are slightly incorrect in this assertion. There is in existence in the Grand Lodge of Scotland library an Arabic Manuscript of the 14th century, in which reference is made to a Masonic sign or password, which, when translated, read, "We have found our Lord Hiram."

Looking through the archives of the Knight’s Templar it is clear that they were enthusiastic builders of churches in the Holy Land, which must have required considerable assistance from local craftsmen. It is reasonable to assume that this ‘story’ or ‘Temple Legend’ must have been known by the native workmen who may in turn have passed it on to the Knights, who would have brought it back with them to this country.

Fraternally Yours

Genuine Free Masonry in Ireland, Scotland and England shared the same pre-Christian Druidic/Celtic/Johannite/Templar roots.

This is but one reference of many:

http://www.esotericrosslyn.org/templar/culdees.htm

Genuine Free Masonry in Scotland:

"After the establishment of the Kilwinning (c. AD 1140) and York Lodges (AD 926) the jurisdiction and antiquity of the Grand Lodge of York over other English Lodges has invariably been acknowledged by the whole Fraternity, the principles of Freemasonry rapidly spread throughout both Kingdoms and several Lodges were erected in different parts of the island." (SOURCE: A Brief History of Lodge Mother Kilwinning No. 0, Grand Lodge of Scotland, June 1944)

The Moderns takeover:

KILWINNING

Before the forming of Grand Lodge in 1736 Mother Kilwinning was a Grand Lodge in her own right issuing warrants and charters to Lodges wishing to enjoy the privileges of Freemasonry, many Lodges still carry Kilwinning's name today. Scotland being a small country it was undesirable to have two Grand Lodges so Mother Kilwinning gave up this right.

However in 1743 Grand Lodge decided to number lodges by seniority and oldest records, unfortunately Mother Kilwinning's minute books date back to 1642, previous records thought to have been smuggled by the monks to France during the reformation or destroyed in the disastrous fire at nearby Eglinton Castle. Mother Kilwinning was placed second on the roll of the Grand Lodge a position she strongly disagreed with, so withdrew and continued to issue charters as before.

This dispute lasted until 1807 when the Grand Lodge of Scotland and the Grand Lodge of Kilwinning met in Glasgow and settled their differences and a new and binding agreement was reached, that being that Mother Kilwinning was placed at the Head of the Roll of the Grand Lodge of Scotland and now has the famous and distinctive Number ' 0 '. The master of the Lodge would by right of that office become Provincial Grand Master of Ayrshire. Mother Kilwinning also gave up the right to issue warrants and charters. In 1860 during a search in Eglinton Castle the now famous Schaw statutes of 1598 and 1599 were found.

(SOURCE: Website of Mother Lodge Kilwinning No.0)


The nearest and oldest reference that we have found in respect of the rituals of the invented third or Master Mason's degree of the Moderns system of freemasonry is the rituals of the French "Sons of Solomon" which would have been available to Theophilus Desaguliers.

stewart edwards
02-09-2009, 07:55 AM
Most members care more about how a person carries themselves with regard to seeking the truth than being a member of an organisation.I cant speak for most members, but Boots is correct, I agree wholeheartedly with this sentiment.

As a lone traveller I have had to work very hard to get to where I am today. When I see Freemasons bickering I just shake my head.

Edward Stewart (Stuart in French spelling) once rashly tried to inspire a nation and was downtrodden by the English (think Culloden and its terrible aftermath - the last battle fought on mainland British soil). Now Stewart Edwards (S - son of Edward) is here illuminating the way for those who are true of heart and are prepared to take the nation forwards.:D (Must change my name to Walter Mitty:eek:). Seriously though if you are a Mason ask yourself this - are you an initiated mason, a true mason or both? Illuminate the darkness away for us profane folk. Go on challenge yourself. Lead by positive example. Go on make a middle aged pain in the ass who bumbles and stumbles very happy.

I would take counsel from Boots here.

(Apologies to anyone that I may have unintentionally offended re my Bonny Prince Charlie comment, just having a little light humoured fun).

bluehorseman
02-09-2009, 08:44 AM
Seriously though if you are a Mason ask yourself this - are you an initiated mason, a true mason or both? Illuminate the darkness away for us profane folk.

Hi Stewart I refer to your question above - I was under the impression that a true mason could only be an initiated mason and that was the distinguishing difference between a true mason and cowans, being initiated? Otherwise in effect we are all potentially Masonic (and if as David Icke says our reality is determined by Masonic ideas trickle feed down to us over the ages than perhaps potentially we are all masonic!!) But if you have some truer sense of masonry by posing that questioncould you please enlighten us.

Regards Bluehorseman

stewart edwards
02-09-2009, 08:52 AM
But if you have some truer sense of masonry by posing that questioncould you please enlighten us.
I only go by two standards sety by the masonic world in this regard.

1. UGLE - Its first tenet. "Every true Freemason will show tolerance and respect for the opinions of others and behave with kindness and understanding to his fellow creatures". This implies that not every initiated mason is necessarily a true freemason.

Now this can be considered to be a waterdown version of:-

2. What some comasonic fraternities, and I would guess some less well known fraternities and indepenend lodges etc, have illustrated in their concept of the (I forget the exact wording) "head of all true freemasons". By implication from this not all true freemasons are necessarily initiated freemasons. You will find this in both conspiracy theory and in the real masonic world if you look closely enough.

The masonic world is very public about such things, you just have to ask the right people the right questions, look at the websites of all the fraternities, and read the books (to which different masons from different fraternities can argue until the cows come home whether the books and masons are masonic!!!!)

Does that help Bluehorseman?

bluehorseman
02-09-2009, 10:54 AM
I only go by two standards sety by the masonic world in this regard.

1. UGLE - Its first tenet. "Every true Freemason will show tolerance and respect for the opinions of others and behave with kindness and understanding to his fellow creatures". This implies that not every initiated mason is necessarily a true freemason.

Now this can be considered to be a waterdown version of:-

2. What some comasonic fraternities, and I would guess some less well known fraternities and indepenend lodges etc, have illustrated in their concept of the (I forget the exact wording) "head of all true freemasons". By implication from this not all true freemasons are necessarily initiated freemasons. You will find this in both conspiracy theory and in the real masonic world if you look closely enough.

The masonic world is very public about such things, you just have to ask the right people the right questions, look at the websites of all the fraternities, and read the books (to which different masons from different fraternities can argue until the cows come home whether the books and masons are masonic!!!!)

Does that help Bluehorseman?


Yes that helps somewhat Stewart, thank you, but... you seem to my eyes to be implying that true masonry is about upholding a type of high moral existance in day to day life governed by masonic law and that if one naturally conducts oneself in that manner (having either had that moral standard instilled in them by their parents or some other agency) they are true masons regardless as to if they have been initiated into the craft or not. If this is so why bother with all the rituals and allegories etc to become a freemason? If a person conducts themselves in a manner appropriate to being a mason without knowledge they are doing thus are they true masons?
Can a initiated mason know a true mason (one not initiated) and if so, how?

Regards Bluehorseman

bluehorseman
02-09-2009, 11:58 AM
Are there masonic beliefs and practices that can allow them to see into the heart of someone and see the true mason inside that being?

stewart edwards
02-09-2009, 01:23 PM
you seem to my eyes to be implying that true masonry is about upholding a type of high moral existanceNot exactly, morals do vary by culture and custom and those with very high morals can actually hold society back with outdated attitudes, I think of it more in terms of inspiring individuals ethically and morally, while remaining relevant to evolving society.

The true bit has more to do with working form your heart, which is a rare skill nowadays. Substance over form.

in day to day lifeIndeed. Practicing what you preach.

governed by masonic lawThis to me is an admin thing, for if you work form your heart you have a natural connection to higher law to guide you. Though you must remain within the boundaries of the law of the land.


and that if one naturally conducts oneself in that manner (having either had that moral standard instilled in them by their parents or some other agency) they are true masons regardless as to if they have been initiated into the craft or not.Again I would say that if you can find the itch in your heart, scratch it, and learn to see the lessons and then learn form them through practical application in your daily life, then yes you are a true mason. many if not most masons may well disagree with me here.

If this is so why bother with all the rituals and allegories etc to become a freemason?Most people cant do this on their own as they are so busy with life. And when you do, as I did, it can be maddening, insane, unbelieveable, and even potentially dangerous. Hence a good "school" can help you travel safely as you climb the ladder.

If a person conducts themselves in a manner appropriate to being a mason without knowledge they are doing thus are they true masons?Well many masons have called me brother, though as you know from this forum many are apauled by this.

Can a initiated mason know a true mason (one not initiated) and if so, how?Dont know you would have to ask an initiated mason. I can tell you that I can spot a true mason fairly easily. It is simply visibly by how they act in life.

grandsecretary
02-09-2009, 02:01 PM
Well many masons have called me brother, though as you know from this forum many are appauled by this.

So long as everyone here knows that you are not a Free Mason, then you are entitled to your opinion Stewart. But it is only an opinion.

thelonious
02-09-2009, 02:22 PM
So long as everyone here knows that you are not a Free Mason, then you are entitled to your opinion Stewart. But it is only an opinion.

The same thing obviously applies to GS, who is not a Mason.

grandsecretary
02-09-2009, 02:51 PM
The same thing obviously applies to GS, who is not a Mason.

The same thing obviously applies to thelonius, who is not a Mason, and who never discusses issues, or answers any questions.

We are still waiting for the minutes (or in fact any record) of the meeting of the "four old lodges" in the back room of the London Ale-house (1717), the sole claim for his legitimacy as a Mason.

Oh well. Perhaps he thought that we had forgotten. Well, we haven't.

Despite overwhelming evidence proving it to be a total fallacy, it is still claimed, and often repeated by Moderns freemasons that organised Free Masonry began in 1717 after a meeting in the tiny back room of a London Ale-house under the chairmanship of "a nameless person". Remarkably, this spurious claim for Masonic regularity and recognition is solely based upon alleged proceedings of an unauthorised, profane meeting.

"Whosoever doubts the truth hereof, let him examine Dr. Anderson's Constitutions (printed in 1738) page 109, where it is written, "that four lodges;" that is to say, some persons who were wont to meet "At the Goose and Gridiron ale-house, in St. Paul's church-yard, "At the Crown ale-house, in Parker's Lane, "At the Apple-tree in Charles-street, Covent Garden. "And at the Rummer and Grapes, in Channel-Row, Westminster, did meet at the Apple-tree aforesaid, in the year 1716, or rather 17, and having chosen (the nameless person before hinted) a Chairman, they constituted themselves a Grand Lodge. Such are the words of the most authentic history amongst Modern Masons, and beyond contradiction prove the origin of their supremacy to be a self-created assembly." (SOURCE: Ahiman Rezon by Laurence Dermott, Grand Secretary of the "Antients" Grand Lodge of Free and Accepted Masons According to the Old Institution, published by James Bedford, at London, 1756)

"Upon enquiry it would appear, that all their boasted supremacy is derived from an obscure person, who lived about sixty-two years ago, and whose name is not to be found on record amongst Ancient or Modern Masons." ... "Such are the words of the most authentic history amongst Modern Masons, and beyond contradiction prove the origin of their supremacy to be a self-created assembly. Nor was a self- creation the only defect: They were defective in numbers. (SOURCE: Ahiman Rezon, by Laurence Dermott, Grand Secretary of the "Antients" Grand Lodge of Free and Accepted Masons According to the Old Institution, published by Southwick & Hardcastle, 2 Wall Street, New York, 1805)

"It is to be regretted that the records of the "Four Old Lodges" do not antedate those of the 'Grand Lodge', they brought into existence, as fortunately happens in the case of the single lodge which blossomed into the 'Grand Lodge of all England, held at York,' " (SOURCE: The History of Freemasonry, Vol. IV by Robert Freke Gould, 1884)

Robert Freke Gould was a lieutenant in the 31st Regiment, English Army. He later qualified as a barrister. From 1868, he is best remembered as an early proponent of the authentic school of masonic research and for his three-volume The History of Freemasonry (1883-1887).

stewart edwards
02-09-2009, 08:29 PM
So long as everyone here knows that you are not a Free Mason, then you are entitled to your opinion Stewart. But it is only an opinion.No argument from me, all that I would add is that my opinions are based on my own personal direct first hand experiences in life. Some in the masonic world seem to value and respect what I have achieved over the past decade while others seem to wonder why it has anything to do with masonry, and yet others, I have been told by masons, may fear me for my knowledge of the core essence stuff. Mostly I have let it go over my head, for what matters to me is my experience in life and my contribution to society, not so much what people think about me. Infact I am more concenred about the law of unintended consequences and unintentionally bu@@ering things up in my efforts to help people take positive steps forwards in their life.

thelonious
02-09-2009, 08:45 PM
Robert Freke Gould was a lieutenant in the 31st Regiment, English Army. He later qualified as a barrister. From 1868, he is best remembered as an early proponent of the authentic school of masonic research and for his three-volume The History of Freemasonry (1883-1887).

Your argument is bogus. It doesn't matter if there was a Grand Lodge that preceded the 1717 GL. The only relevant fact is that, if it did in fact precede, it went extinct and merged with the regular GL.

*YOU* most certainly do *NOT* represent any organization, Masonic or otherwise, that existed before 1717.

grandsecretary
02-09-2009, 11:14 PM
Your argument is bogus. It doesn't matter if there was a Grand Lodge that preceded the 1717 GL. The only relevant fact is that, if it did in fact precede, it went extinct and merged with the regular GL.

*YOU* most certainly do *NOT* represent any organization, Masonic or otherwise, that existed before 1717.

Oh yes it does, it is absolutely key and thank you for admitting it. Simply total misinformation, caused either by crass ignorance or a blatant lie.

The United Grand Lodge of England was formed when the Grand Lodge of London (constituted in 1723) capitulated and subsumed itself into the Grand Lodge of Free and Accepted Masons According to the Old Institution, which was itself self-started as a breakaway from the Grand Lodge of London in 1751.

Absolute proof here:

http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/compact.html#compact

I suggest that you read it very carefully than apologise to all here for spreading your disinformation.

"It was by unequivocal surrender on the part of the Moderns that fraternal intercourse between them and the other Grand Lodges of the United Kingdom was restored after an interruption of many years." ... "The INTERNATIONAL COMPACT (1814) can claim to be the most important official document promulgated among English-speaking Freemasons during the current century. Nothing can be more suggestive than the implied admission, or rather assertion, in the second Resolution, of the legitimacy of the Antients' claim to be regarded as the Grand Lodge of England. In that resolution it is expressly recited that the fraternal recognition in 1772 took place "between the Three Grand Lodges of England, Ireland and Scotland." Now, the only recognition of that year exclusively concerned the Antients. It would almost seem as if the limitation by the numeral "three" was designed by the framers of the Resolution to put an end to any claim that the Grand Lodge unrecognised in 1772 (The Moderns Grand Lodge of London) might have made to the title of Grand Lodge of England. Most certainly, the Grand Lodge of Ireland did not officially recognise, in 1772, or at any other time, the claim of the Grand Lodge of the Moderns to the title of Grand Lodge of England." (SOURCE: Pietre Stones Review of Freemasonry, International Compact between the Grand Lodges of England, Ireland, and Scotland, Concluded July 1814.)

The Grand Lodge of All England has NEVER been associated with the self started and profane Moderns Grand Lodge of London, or The Grand Lodge of Free and Accepted Masons According to the Old Institution, or The Grand Lodge of Ireland, or The Grand Lodge of Scotland, and it has never been "extinct".

INDISPUTABLE HISTORICAL FACTS.

Now I understand your problem. READ MORE!

"The Earl of Crawford seems to have made the first encroachment on the jurisdiction of the Grand Lodge in the city of York, by constituting two lodges within their district; and by granting, without their consent, three deputations, one for Lancashire, a second for Durham, and a third for Northumberland. This circumstance the Grand Lodge of York highly resented ..." (SOURCE: Illustrations of Masonry by Dr William Preston, 1772)

"In 1735, the Earl of Crawford, Grand Master of England, constituted two Lodges within the jurisdiction of the York Grand Lodge and granted, without its consent, Deputations for Lancashire, Durham and Northumberland. (SOURCE: Encyclopaedia of Freemasonry Part 1, page 327, by Albert Gallatin Mackey and H.L. Haywood, 1909)

18 years later than the alleged meeting at the Goose and Gridiron in 1717.

"The reality is that we have no written documents about the foundation of the first Grand Lodge in 1717, no evidence that the members of the four lodges meeting at the Goose and Gridiron Tavern were the successors of the operative stonemasonry which transmitted them its rituals. John Hamill (Chief Librarian of The United Grand Lodge of England) says that "the analysis of the context in England at 1717 demonstrates that the operative lodges had disappeared since a long time. Whatever the four London lodges were at that time, it is established that they could not have been the successors of the Stonemasons' Lodges". (SOURCE: The Scottish Key. An Investigation into the Origins of Freemasonry, by Tristan Bourlard and François De Smet, SimonGo! Productions, 2007)

And there is no argument at all that I represent The Grand Lodge of All England, and all that entails, whether you agree or not, or like it or not, makes not one jot of difference because it is of no business or concern of yours, and you are not qualified to make either a judgement or an informed comment.

The Grand Lodge of All England wishes to confirm for the purposes of absolute clarity that the legitimacy and authority of The Grand Lodge of All England at York derives from its lawful act of constitutional restitution effected at York on Friday 23rd December 2005 according to English law, European law, Masonic law, Masonic practice and tradition, and upon those ancient laws traditions and landmarks obtained through the practices of Free Masonry since time immemorial. The Grand Lodge of All England is therefore beyond the jurisdiction of any other Masonic body, either at home or overseas, particularly but not exclusively: The United Grand Lodge of England; The Conference of Grand Masters of Masons of North America and its constituent Grand Lodges.

I repeat the single question from other threads, but never answered by you: You claim to be a so-called "regular freemason." What is the basis for your claim to this assumed legitimacy?

bluehorseman
03-09-2009, 09:00 AM
[QUOTE=stewart edwards;1239071]
Most people cant do this on their own as they are so busy with life. And when you do, as I did, it can be maddening, insane, unbelieveable, and even potentially dangerous. Hence a good "school" can help you travel safely as you climb the ladder.

Well many masons have called me brother, though as you know from this forum many are apauled by this.
QUOTE]

Well yes I see what you mean, many of us here have been blindfolded and not had the benefit of others to guide us; I would say that many of us have felt the yokes of responsibility around our necks someitmes like a noose, have had to bare our chest to reveal our heart - and no doubt many people recognise that when they meet others who have walked the same path.

grandsecretary
03-09-2009, 04:03 PM
Grandsecretary is not a Freemason either.

I refer the honorable gentleman to the question I raised (many times) earlier which brings into question the voracity of your claim to Masonic legitimacy. Now this is a very serious allegation. One which you continue to refuse to answer or defend after many months.

Silence implies assent.

"Preston is decidedly more full and clear than Anderson, although both wrote in the interests of the London Grand Lodge, yet not with the same bias of feeling. Anderson was one of the originators of the London Grand Lodge, and as a man of strong prejudices he was biased in all his inditings, evidences of which are seen throughout his two publications on every possible occasion, in the omission of historical facts, or giving the contrary construction to, and diverting attention in cases reflecting unfavourably upon the New Grand Lodge. The Books of Anderson, however, are almost universally accepted by the Masonic fraternity as containing a true history of Freemasonry, at least from the time our review commences, and the Ancient Charges, especially those contained in the 1723 edition, are as generally adopted as the fundamental law and basis of Masonic principles. But notwithstanding Anderson's Books of Constitutions were published by order of the London Grand Lodge, with its approval and sanction, yet no more untrustworthy, unreliable books were ever printed under the direction of any organised association. We affirm that Anderson is not to be credited. The Books of Constitutions were written purposely to deceive, to mislead and misrepresent facts as they existed; and if his reports of Grand Lodge Proceedings are true copies of Grand Lodge Records, then the records were were corrupted with the design to mislead the reader." (SOURCE: Freemasonry in England from 1567 to 1813, Ancient York and London Grand Lodges , pages 15 and 16, by Leon Hyneman, 1877)

Nothing changes. Deal with the issues thelonious, only you are too frightened of the consequences. You prefer to get it sin-binned.

thelonious
03-09-2009, 04:49 PM
Nothing changes. Deal with the issues thelonious, only you are too frightened of the consequences. You prefer to get it sin-binned.

I've constantly dealt with the issue and you have not, i.e., that you created your own little club and pretend it's somehow related to Freemasonry.

grandsecretary
03-09-2009, 06:10 PM
I've constantly dealt with the issue and you have not, i.e., that you created your own little club and pretend it's somehow related to Freemasonry.

Answer the question then. I will repeat it, again. You call yourself a "regular freemason". What is the basis for your claim to legitimacy?

Now I will answer you, again:

The Grand Lodge of All England wishes to confirm for the purposes of absolute clarity that the legitimacy and authority of The Grand Lodge of All England at York derives from its lawful act of constitutional restitution effected at York on Friday 23rd December 2005 according to English law, European law, Masonic law, Masonic practice and tradition, and upon those ancient laws traditions and landmarks obtained through the practices of Free Masonry since time immemorial. The Grand Lodge of All England is therefore beyond the jurisdiction of any other Masonic body, either at home or overseas, particularly but not exclusively: The United Grand Lodge of England; The Conference of Grand Masters of Masons of North America and its constituent Grand Lodges.

1) We are NOT connected IN ANY WAY with the Moderns system of freemasonry.

2) We have no wish to be associated or connected with the Moderns system of freemasonry.

3) We condemn the arrogance of its members for continually suggesting that we would even consider being connected with the Moderns system of freemasonry.

So why are you so worried?

FACT: The United Grand Lodge of England is a self-started, irregular, unchartered, unwarranted, illegal, profane organisation. Unlike your good self, I can and am quite happy to prove my statement.

Your own Grand Historian and Chief Librarian says this:

"The reality is that we have no written documents about the foundation of the first Grand Lodge in 1717, no evidence that the members of the four lodges meeting at the Goose and Gridiron Tavern were the successors of the operative stonemasonry which transmitted them its rituals. John Hamill (Chief Librarian of The United Grand Lodge of England) says that "the analysis of the context in England at 1717 demonstrates that the operative lodges had disappeared since a long time. Whatever the four London lodges were at that time, it is established that they could not have been the successors of the Stonemasons' Lodges". (SOURCE: The Scottish Key. An Investigation into the Origins of Freemasonry, by Tristan Bourlard and François De Smet, SimonGo! Productions, 2007)

As does your foremost Masonic scholar:

"It is to be regretted that the records of the "Four Old Lodges" do not antedate those of the 'Grand Lodge', they brought into existence, as fortunately happens in the case of the single lodge which blossomed into the 'Grand Lodge of all England, held at York,' " (SOURCE: The History of Freemasonry, Vol. IV by Robert Freke Gould, 1884)

You are lying again when you say that you have dealt with the issues. You clearly have not, because you cannot.

"The 1717 movement was not a "revival," as Anderson has it, and recent writers contend it to have been. REVOLUTION is the proper term, as it was the culmination of revolutionary movements commenced more than one hundred and fifty years prior, and continued through all those years to gain the end aimed at. The movements subsequent to 1717 prove it, as the course pursued by the new Grand Lodge towards the York Grand Lodge was of the same character as before the revolution. The York Grand Lodge cannot be ignored, as Anderson and some writers of the present day aim to do. It has a record prior to 1717 and subsequent ..." (SOURCE: Freemasonry in England from 1567 to 1813, London Grand Lodges, p.17, by Leon Hyneman, 1877)

Now you quote one single document or record that proves your legitimacy. I openly challenge you.

Answer the question, or your silence implies assent.

grandsecretary
04-09-2009, 10:14 AM
Masonic Beliefs and Practices.

Just to let you know, in very clear terms, what my philosophy is here.

Debate the issues and I will debate the issues.

Be polite and I will be polite.

Attack me personally, or our Grand Lodge unfairly and I will defend both, absolutely to the hilt, and without compromise.

If you are not prepared to take it, then don't give it out, because I, and we, will NOT be harassed, bullied, pushed around, abused, subjected to foul and filthy language, accused of pedophilia, child abuse, murder, satanic worship, lying, cheating, and goodness knows what else you can think up for your own self gratification.

How dare you treat people like this? Who the hell do you think you are?

You do these things anonymously, carefully hiding yourselves away from any redress for your slanderous, malicious claims and allegations, designed to do as much harm as possible to as many people as possible who refuse to act as you do, cowardly, dishonest, snakes in the grass, who strike when nobody is looking, and who then slither off into your anonymous viper's nest alongside the rest of your poisonous, motley, anti-social, reptilian cosa nostra.

Fake, green-eyed failures, and gutless cowards the lot of you. Well now you have been told, so stop belly aching.

The choice is yours. Now get on with it because I am ready for you, whatever you choose to do.

Have a nice day!

grandsecretary
05-09-2009, 02:28 AM
keystone, please read the other thread where I explain to you what you are an innocent party to.

I made promises as a freemason (no Sacred Oaths in your Grand Lodge) when, as a matter of indisputable fact, just like you, I was manoevered into becoming a clandestine, irregular, irreligious member of the Invisible College of the Rosicrucian Brotherhood. That doesn't count I am afraid.

Do you not realise that the occult Order of the Golden Dawn, The Ruby Rose and Cross of Gold, The Secret Order of Chiefs, and The Hermetic Order of Martinists are still all integral parts of the Society of Rosicrucians at Hampstead, and membership of that organisation is restricted to senior members of the Craft at Great Queen Street? Doesn't this concern you at all?

Well it should.

Do you know what the CBCS is, restricted to nine members of the Grand Temple in St James's? I suspect not.

I have mentioned names here that nobody on this forum has ever thought about, and there is a lot more besides. Please don't doubt my inside knowledge.

Now, just think about what has been said here, and elsewhere about lower degree masons not knowing what is going on in the higher degrees. There are many higher degrees that you don't even know about, and never will. Been there. Got the tee shirt.

keystone
05-09-2009, 02:39 AM
keystone, please read the other thread where I explain to you what you are an innocent party to.Sorry I'm doing 2 threads at once.

But your answers in the other thread are really rather mundane compared with what this:

I am the greatest opponent of the Moderns form of freemasonry which is "The Invisible College of the Rosicrucian Brotherhood". And then you join in with them in their efforts to discredit me and what WE, that is YOU and ME know and believe about them, and their ulterior motives.

Why do you think they become so vicious and vehement when I expose their lies, deceit, disinformation and misinformation from a position of inside knowledge about them at the very highest levels?


suggests.

I made promises as a freemason (no Sacred Oaths in your Grand Lodge) when, as a matter of indisputable fact, just like you, I was manoevered into becoming a clandestine, irregular Mason. That doesn't count I am afraid.Well I've said before that, IMHO, Freemasonry is a personal journey. The questions of regularity and recognition bore me to death. Grand Lodges are regular only in their own estimation and that bull is really all about admin isn't it?

I think it does count actually and irrespective, Thelonius is wrong IMO - or are you saying he is correct?

Cheers

keystone
05-09-2009, 02:46 AM
Good grief I do wish you'd stop adding to posts when I'm half way through replying to the first offering. It makes it look as though I'm ignoring half of it!

Anyway you added:

Do you not realise that the occult Order of the Golden Dawn, The Ruby Rose and Cross of Gold, The Secret Chiefs, and The Hermetic Order of Martinists are still all integral parts of the Society of Rosicrucians at Hampstead, and membership of that organisation is restricted to senior members of the Craft at Great Queen Street?No I didn't but o you mean SRIA or do you mean one of the other multifarious Rosicrucian orders. Actualy I do know someone quite well who is a member of the Hermetic Order Of Martinists. He is by no means a senior member of the Craft at GQS.

Doesn't this concern you at all?Golden Dawn certainly does. In the round it probably would if I understood it more.

Cheers

PS I'm going to sleep now. Pick it up tomorrow as I've got work first thing.

keystone
05-09-2009, 02:57 AM
Yes I do know what the CBCS is. I do know someone who is a member. He is an ordinary chap, runs his own business locally and is NOT a senior member of UGLE Craft. He is not even a GO. I don't know how he finds the time for all his masonic activity which is continental as well.

Cheers

grandsecretary
05-09-2009, 03:06 AM
Grand Lodges are regular only in their own estimation and that bull is really all about admin isn't it? Cheers

keystone you are still not listening. Masonic regularity is everything and they know it.

I will ask you the same question that I keep on asking.

What is the basis for their claim to be the sole arbiter of Masonic regularity? And this is EXACTLY what they claim and it damages legitimate Grand Lodges.

Every day I get this idiot thelonius saying that I am not a freemason and yet he will NOT answer this question. Why?

Rhetorical: because he knows that it is based upon a blatant lie and he cannot even try to answer without admitting it. He is too comfortable eating the steak and kidney pie, and having a few beers with his friends, and who am I to lay blame?

I understand this, but I KNOW what goes on, and so does he and he is perfectly prepared to try to discredit someone like me, rather than admit the truth.

That is just plain dishonesty. Is that what your Masony is about - dishonesty? I am afraid that it is.

We are trying to go back to what it was, a religion to which all men who believe in the exoteric may belong.

keystone we have religious Masonic manuscripts that go back to AD 774, including the rituals, that prove where we come from, and more importantly where we are all heading.

Now that is that.

grandsecretary
05-09-2009, 03:10 AM
Yes I do know what the CBCS is. I do know someone who is a member. He is an ordinary chap, runs his own business locally and is NOT a senior member of UGLE Craft. He is not even a GO. I don't know how he finds the time for all his masonic activity which is continental as well.

Cheers

He is NOT a member of the CBCS here in England, which is restricted to nine senior Grand Officers of the Temple.

The Belgian CBCS is not connected in any way with the secret CBCS in St James's.

grandsecretary
05-09-2009, 03:43 AM
From come from here and we will return here:

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q295/grandsecretary/AncientofDays-1.jpg

grandsecretary
05-09-2009, 03:50 AM
We have a hand written fair copy of a manuscript in the Gaelic tongue, dated c. AD 798. It is reputed to have been written by Óengus mac Óengobann, better known as Saint Óengus of Tallaght or Óengus the Culdee, an Irish bishop, reformer and writer. Unlike the HigginsMasonic document this ancient manuscript was used at Tallacht Abbey, the mother house of the Culdee (Céli Dé) Movement at Tallacht, County Wicklow, Ireland which was co-founded by Maelruain and Saint Óengus in AD 774.

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q295/grandsecretary/AncientofDays-1.jpg

The content of these manuscripts have been handed down by pre-Davidic King Priests. They describe in detail the beginning and the end of time, and the secrets of the universe.

decim
05-09-2009, 03:54 AM
What does it tell happened in the beginning & end?

We have a hand written fair copy of a manuscript in the Gaelic tongue, dated c. AD 798. It is reputed to have been written by Óengus mac Óengobann, better known as Saint Óengus of Tallaght or Óengus the Culdee, an Irish bishop, reformer and writer. Unlike the HigginsMasonic document this ancient manuscript was used at Tallacht Abbey, the mother house of the Culdee (Céli Dé) Movement at Tallacht, County Wicklow, Ireland which was co-founded by Maelruain and Saint Óengus in AD 774.

http://i139.photobucket.com/albums/q295/grandsecretary/AncientofDays-1.jpg

The content of these manuscripts have been handed down by pre-Davidic King Priests. They describe in detail the beginning and the end of time, and the secrets of the universe.

grandsecretary
05-09-2009, 04:09 AM
It has been scanned to computer. It measures 50MB of text. I am afraid that it is only available to those who wish to be baptised and instructed in Free Masonrie.

decim
05-09-2009, 04:18 AM
That's fair enough, although I am baptised, an exorcism may also be required.

It has been scanned to computer. It measures 50MB of text. I am afraid that it is only available to those who wish to be baptised and instructed in Free Masonrie.

bluehorseman
05-09-2009, 11:42 AM
It has been scanned to computer. It measures 50MB of text. I am afraid that it is only available to those who wish to be baptised and instructed in Free Masonrie.

You can see though G.Sec why many people here would be suspicious of the motives of Free Masonrie when important information like this is withheld from the general populace? If knowledge is power then not sharing knowledge is the same as keeping the power - why? Especially something as important as how the world was begun/to end.

Do members from all levels of Free Masonrie have the same access to all the information in your libraries or is some information kept for selected members?

stewart edwards
05-09-2009, 11:42 AM
OK the following is going to be a bit of an embarrising admission but never mindDo you not realise that the occult Order of the Golden Dawn, The Ruby Rose and Cross of Gold, The Secret Order of Chiefs, and The Hermetic Order of Martinists are still all integral parts of the Society of Rosicrucians at Hampstead, and membership of that organisation is restricted to senior members of the Craft at Great Queen Street? Doesn't this concern you at all?Whilst at least one Freemason has once said to me that I am a rosicrucian I have never really thought about what this means, and I dont really know what one is.:o I do have some knowledge from my readings/internet but you know it has never really sunk in. GrandSecretary, can you succinctly define a rosicrucian for me. I ask as I do seem to have some respect by some in ugle rosicrucian circles and not really understanding the term well you know - a little embarrising.


That is the trouble of working from your heart without proper "schooling" you just find things out, do things, travel, without knowing the academic side. Sometimes I lack a context so to speak, and given your experience in these circles I would value your definition of what I am considered to be by some (in addition to being considered a pain in the backside:D)

bluehorseman
05-09-2009, 11:53 AM
OK the following is going to be a bit of an embarrising admission but never mindWhilst at least one Freemason has once said to me that I am a rosicrucian I have never really thought about what this means, and I dont really know what one is.:o I do have some knowledge from my readings/internet but you know it has never really sunk in. GrandSecretary, can you succinctly define a rosicrucian for me. I ask as I do seem to have some respect by some in ugle rosicrucian circles and not really understanding the term well you know - a little embarrising.


That is the trouble of working from your heart without proper "schooling" you just find things out, do things, travel, without knowing the academic side. Sometimes I lack a context so to speak, and given your experience in these circles I would value your definition of what I am considered to be by some (in addition to being considered a pain in the backside:D)

You have to be initiated to be a Rosicrucian as well I think Stewart.

stewart edwards
05-09-2009, 11:55 AM
We are trying to go back to what it was, a religion to which all men who believe in the exoteric may belong.Stewart is thinking about this. Do you really mean exoteric Peter? I am sure that you do but this throws me a little hence my reflections.

keystone we have religious Masonic manuscripts that go back to AD 774, including the rituals, that prove where we come from, and more importantly where we are all heading.You mentioned in an earier post that these were held by king/priests. Do you consider it possible that:-

1. Modern day king/priests can access such knowledge directly?
2. Your king/priests of AD774(ish fom your earlier post) could be directly related in this regard to the King prists of say 4000 years ago. A time as you know that is mighty important to me?

Just curious.

keystone
05-09-2009, 07:49 PM
keystone you are still not listening.I do not accept that.

Masonic regularity is everything.........Only when there are axes to be ground.

What is the basis for their claim to be the sole arbiter of Masonic regularity?Please enlighten me.

And this is EXACTLY what they claimPlease show me where. For the record you understand.

and it damages legitimate Grand Lodges.Only if they allow it to.

Every day I get this idiot thelonius saying that I am not a freemason and yet he will NOT answer this question. Why?That is for him to answer but calling him an idiot isn't likley to endear you to him. Oh and BTW I posted last night a rebuttal to him that you ARE a freemason. The converse applies.

................ who am I to lay blame?Indeed.

I understand this, but I KNOW what goes on, and so does he and he is perfectly prepared to try to discredit someone like me, rather than admit the truth.I'm after the truth actually.

That is just plain dishonesty. Is that what your Masony is about - dishonesty?MY masonry is MY masonry and it is by no means dishonest. It is NOT UGLEs masonry. How many times do I have to say it? Now who isn't listening? I may be a member of a Lodge administratively under UGLE but they do NOT tell me how to run my life. I can walk any time I like.

I am afraid that it is.A tad patronising but I'll let it pass this time.

We are trying to go back to what it was, a religion to which all men who believe in the exoteric may belong.and I wish you well with it. Are you sure you mean exoteric?

keystone we have religious Masonic manuscripts that go back to AD 774, including the rituals, that prove where we come from, and more importantly where we are all heading.Then surely these are important enough to share?

Cheers

keystone
05-09-2009, 08:14 PM
You can see though G.Sec why many people here would be suspicious of the motives of Free Masonrie when important information like this is withheld from the general populace? If knowledge is power then not sharing knowledge is the same as keeping the power - why? Especially something as important as how the world was begun/to end.

Do members from all levels of Free Masonrie have the same access to all the information in your libraries or is some information kept for selected members?Beat me to it.

Cheers

keystone
05-09-2009, 08:59 PM
He is NOT a member of the CBCS here in England, which is restricted to nine senior Grand Officers of the Temple.Hmmm. 'Kay.

The Belgian CBCS is not connected in any way with the secret CBCS in St James's.He could be a member of that one I guess. What is the difference?

Cheers

papillon55
05-09-2009, 10:57 PM
I was surprised to find a mason admitting their connections to Templars;

grandsecretary;............ Knights Templar: were all Johannine Free Masons before they were sworn Knights of the Temple......Genuine Free Masonry in Ireland, Scotland and England shared the same pre-Christian Druidic/Celtic/Johannite/Templar roots.

The Chinon Parchment, dated 17-20 August, 1308, is a record of the trial of the Templars before Pope Clement in the castle of Chinon in the diocese of Tours;Among the accusations were sodomy, denouncing God, illicit kisses, spitting on the cross, and worshipping an idol.

The Temple houses cover every possible crime and abomination.

They practised homosexual acts together, refusing normal sexual intercourse.

The heads of the order are addicted to debauchery, heretical, cruel and sacrilegious men.

They teach women who are pregnant by them how to procure abortion, and secretly murder new born children

They then received the kiss of the templar, who officiated as receiver, on the mouth, and afterwards;

.......were obliged to kiss him on the anus:confused:,:( (wow...a bunch of ass kissers.....that never occured to me....:rolleyes:)

on the navel, and sometimes ..............on the penis:eek:

An apt quote from Mr.Smith from 'The Matrix' about 'Freemasons';

You move to an area and you multiply and multiply until every natural resource is consumed and the only way you can survive is to spread to another area.

There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus..... Freemasons are a disease a cancer of this planet. You are a plague.... It's the smell, I feel saturated by it. I can taste your stink and every time I do, I fear that I've somehow been infected by it.

Well I am confident that it was really intended for freemasons:)

kweli
06-09-2009, 12:34 AM
boots, what you are about on this part of the forum is judging people by what they call themselves, rather than what they are, what they do, what they represent, and what they say.

You call me a dope and yet I am the greatest opponent of the Moderns form of freemasonry which is "The Invisible College of the Rosicrucian Brotherhood". And then you join in with them in their efforts to discredit me and what WE, that is YOU and ME know and believe about them, and their ulterior motives.

Why do you think that they encourage you, and gang up with you when it suits them, lumping me in with them? And YOU, you dope, you fall for it every time, hook, line and sinker.

Why do you think they become so vicious and vehement when I expose their lies, deceit, disinformation and misinformation from a position of inside knowledge about them at the very highest levels?

Your problem is that you cannot tell the difference between a friend and an enemy. That makes you dangerous. There are none so blind a those who will not see.

Fact based upon knowledge is far more powerful than the constant repetition of unimportant, unfounded, silly, yah boo, allegations and name calling. I prefer the surgeon's knife rather than a blunderbuss in the hands of a blind dope.

Hi GS, I have questions if you please? You said in an earlier post - "it was hell on wheels." then why did you stay so long? When did you first realise the corruption?

stevepenny
06-09-2009, 01:09 PM
Hi,

Genuine Free Masonry in Ireland, Scotland and England shared the same pre-Christian Druidic/Celtic/Johannite/Templar roots.

I'm not sure of the Druidic/Celtic root of which you speak. Certainly Coil thought so (Sons of the Mey...Mey Sons etc) but there is no evidence to corroborate this idea.

Genuine Free Masonry in Scotland:

Again I have to question whether the date of 1140AD (although correct) relates to genuine Freemasonry in Scotland. Certainly from an operative point of view; but not speculative...that came much later.

The nearest and oldest reference that we have found in respect of the rituals of the invented third or Master Mason's degree of the Moderns system of freemasonry is the rituals of the French "Sons of Solomon" which would have been available to Theophilus Desaguliers.

I'll reserve judgement for now on this point. I'm attending our local reseasrch lodge next week where hopefully the subject of the 3rd and Desaguliers might be resolved.

grandsecretary
06-09-2009, 08:06 PM
I was surprised to find a mason admitting their connections to Templars;

grandsecretary;............ Knights Templar: were all Johannine Free Masons before they were sworn Knights of the Temple......Genuine Free Masonry in Ireland, Scotland and England shared the same pre-Christian Druidic/Celtic/Johannite/Templar roots.

The Chinon Parchment, dated 17-20 August, 1308, is a record of the trial of the Templars before Pope Clement in the castle of Chinon in the diocese of Tours;Among the accusations were sodomy, denouncing God, illicit kisses, spitting on the cross, and worshipping an idol.

The Temple houses cover every possible crime and abomination.

They practised homosexual acts together, refusing normal sexual intercourse.

The heads of the order are addicted to debauchery, heretical, cruel and sacrilegious men.

They teach women who are pregnant by them how to procure abortion, and secretly murder new born children

They then received the kiss of the templar, who officiated as receiver, on the mouth, and afterwards;

.......were obliged to kiss him on the anus:confused:,:( (wow...a bunch of ass kissers.....that never occured to me....:rolleyes:)

on the navel, and sometimes ..............on the penis:eek:

An apt quote from Mr.Smith from 'The Matrix' about 'Freemasons';

You move to an area and you multiply and multiply until every natural resource is consumed and the only way you can survive is to spread to another area.

There is another organism on this planet that follows the same pattern. Do you know what it is? A virus..... Freemasons are a disease a cancer of this planet. You are a plague.... It's the smell, I feel saturated by it. I can taste your stink and every time I do, I fear that I've somehow been infected by it.

Well I am confident that it was really intended for freemasons:)

You have the same prejudices as those who started these rumours and used them in order to persecute the Knights of the Temple for one reason, and one reason only, in order to establish the supremacy of Petrine Rome. I am afraid that you too are beyond help on this one. Can't you find a witch somewhere to burn at the stake in the year 2009?

grandsecretary
06-09-2009, 08:37 PM
Hi,

I'm not sure of the Druidic/Celtic root of which you speak. Certainly Coil thought so (Sons of the Mey...Mey Sons etc) but there is no evidence to corroborate this idea.

Again I have to question whether the date of 1140AD (although correct) relates to genuine Freemasonry in Scotland. Certainly from an operative point of view; but not speculative...that came much later.

I'll reserve judgement for now on this point. I'm attending our local reseasrch lodge next week where hopefully the subject of the 3rd and Desaguliers might be resolved.

Could we please stop confusing Operative working Masons with Free Masons. It is a complete red herring based upon an ignorance of what Free Masonrie IS.

It's not your fault because you, as did Coil, live in a Moderns environment where you believe what you have told by your Moderns "historians". Silly things like "King Athelstan didn't have a brother called Edwin".

Let us deal with this term "speculative" as opposed to "operative".

This is the Anglo-Saxon wording in the Matthew Cooke Manuscript:

And af|ter|
|theat| was a worthy kyn|ge|
in Englond |that| was callyd
Athelstone and his yong
est |s|one lovyd well the
|s|ciens of Gemetry. and
he wy|s|t well|that| hand craft
had the practyke of |the |s|ci
ens of Gemetry to well
as masons wherefore he
drewe hym |to| c|on|sell and ler
nyd practyke of |that| |s|ciens
to his |s|peculatyf. For of |s|pec
culatyfe he was a ma|s||ter|
and he lovyd well ma
|s|onry and ma|s|ons. And
he bicome a mason hym
|s|elfe. And he yaf hem charg|es|
and names as hit is now
vsyd id Englond. and in
othere countries. And he
ordyned |that| |th|ey |s|chulde haue
re|s|onabull pay. And pur
cha|s|ed a fre patent of |the| k|y|ng
that they |s|choulde make a
|s|embly whan thei |s|awe re|-|
|s|onably tyme a c|u| to gedir to
he|re| counsel|le| of |the| whiche
Charges manors & |s|emble
as is write and taught |in| |th|e
boke of our charges wher
for I leue hit at this tyme.

The Matthew Cooke Manuscript is properly known as "Additional M.S. 23,198" in the Kings Library at the British Museum and has been dated c.1450. It is, however, but a copy of a much earlier Anglo-Saxon document.

So what can we learn from this?

It was written by somebody who knew all about "speculatyf" or "speculatyfe" Masonry, because he describes King Athelstan, quite clearly, as a "speculative master".

This document was written around AD1450, but experts at the British Museum have estimated the text to be from the middle to end of the 10th century.

Now, why has this confusion arisen?

The answer is given by Robert Freke Gould in his "History of Freemasonry Its Antiquities, Symbols, Constitutions, Customs, Part 2" where he deals with the question of Elias Ashmole's initiation into Freemasonry.

This is what he says:

From the circumstances, that Ashmole records his attendance at a meeting of the Freemasons held in a hall of the Company of Masons, a good deal of confusion has been engendered, which some casual remarks of Dr Anderson, in the Constitutions of 1723, have done much to confirm. By way of filling up a page, as he expresses it, he quotes from an old Record of Masons, to the effect that, "the said Record describing a Coat of Arms, much the same with that of the LONDON COMPANY of Freemen Masons, it is generally believ'd that the said Company is descended of the ancient Fraternity; and that in former Times no Man was Free of that Company until he was install'd in some Lodge of Free and Accepted Masons, as a necessary Qualification." "But" he adds, "that laudable Practice seems to have been long in Dissuetude."

Preston, in this instance not unnaturally, copied from Anderson, and others of course have followed suit; but as I believe myself to be the only person who has been allowed access to the books and records of the Masons' Company for purposes of historical research, the design of this work will be better fulfilled by a concise summary of the results of my examination, together with such collateral information as I have been able to acquire, than by attempting to fully describe the superstructure of error which has been erected on so treacherous a foundation.

Anderson started this confusion (I believe quite deliberately) and it was made worse by William Preston who repeated this entirely false connection between the Masons Company (the administrative organisation for working Masons) and our York Lodge which merely rented their hall in London for a meeting of what was an entirely speculative Lodge, as they always have been since time immemorial.

decim
06-09-2009, 10:34 PM
GS, that is interesting information on Athelstan.

Does his lineage extend to the present day?

If so, is it secret, or not so 'common' knowledge?

The name Athelstan, could it be where Arthurian legend is derived?

In your post no.987 the name Maelruain is mentioned, could this be Merlin of Arthurian legend?

grandsecretary
06-09-2009, 11:24 PM
GS, that is interesting information on Athelstan.

Does his lineage extend to the present day?

If so, is it secret, or not so 'common' knowledge?

The name Athelstan, could it be where Arthurian legend is derived?

In your post no.987 the name Maelruain is mentioned, could this be Merlin of Arthurian legend?

Nobody here claims a family lineage from King Athelstane and we have not yet followed up on this strand of research. It needs doing.

A firm yes to both Athelstan and Maelruain.

decim
06-09-2009, 11:33 PM
Intriguing, I'll have to do some t'internet digging.

Cheers for the answer.

Nobody here claims a family lineage from King Athelstane and we have not yet followed up on this strand of research. It needs doing.

A firm yes to both Athelstan and Maelruain.

grandsecretary
06-09-2009, 11:38 PM
Hi GS, I have questions if you please? You said in an earlier post - "it was hell on wheels." then why did you stay so long? When did you first realise the corruption?

I realised what was going on in 2002 when I became actively involved in the protest over the sale of The Royal Masonic Hospital. I was also actively involved in the enquiries and protest over the charity scandal in Yorkshire in 2004.

When I took the job at 10 Duke Street, St James's (1997) I realised that the powers were too strong to do anything about anything really. I resigned from this job at the end of the year.

I carried on as a member of the Craft for a number of years doing research into the history and legal status of The Grand Lodge at York. I attended Lodges less and less. On the 10th December 2005 I resigned from the UGLE in toto.

kweli
07-09-2009, 12:28 AM
I realised what was going on in 2002 when I became actively involved in the protest over the sale of The Royal Masonic Hospital. I was also actively involved in the enquiries and protest over the charity scandal in Yorkshire in 2004.

When I took the job at 10 Duke Street, St James's (1997) I realised that the powers were too strong to do anything about anything really. I resigned from this job at the end of the year.

I carried on as a member of the Craft for a number of years doing research into the history and legal status of The Grand Lodge at York. I attended Lodges less and less. On the 10th December 2005 I resigned from the UGLE in toto.

Just had to delete my first reply to you because i didn't fully comprehend your answer (still don't?) before i responded.

So you suspected at the end of 2007, yet it took you until 2002 to finally realise, is this what you're saying?

grandsecretary
07-09-2009, 01:23 PM
Just had to delete my first reply to you because i didn't fully comprehend your answer (still don't?) before i responded.

So you suspected at the end of 2007, yet it took you until 2002 to finally realise, is this what you're saying?

I understood the powers of the Supreme Council towards the end of 1997.

I realised that there were murky dealings in 2002. I became involved in protests which were fruitless because of the power exerted by the few who pack Grand Lodge Communications with those who will not vote against them. I decided that enough was enough in 2005.

I have never known a resolution to be voted down in the Communications of Grand Lodge. In over 20 years I have only ever known of one brave man who stood up and protested. He was met with silence, and subsequently vilified.

I hope that this clarifies what happened, and why I resigned in order to assist in the revival of the true and genuine form of Free Masonrie.

stevepenny
07-09-2009, 02:41 PM
Could we please stop confusing Operative working Masons with Free Masons. It is a complete red herring based upon an ignorance of what Free Masonrie IS.

There is no confusion. I am specifically referring to Freemasonry in Scotland. The date of 1140AD relates to Mother Kilwinning 0 and was most certainly an operative lodge, not speculative.

It's not your fault because you, as did Coil, live in a Moderns environment where you believe what you have told by your Moderns "historians". Silly things like "King Athelstan didn't have a brother called Edwin"

Please don't confuse me with somebody who does not know what they are talking about. Nobody is doubting the Cooke manuscript. The problem is that it is sufficiently vague as to whether Athelstone was a speculative Mason (as we understand the term today) or whether it refers to Athelstone being a student (in speculative terms) of the science of Geometry, and ultimately becoming an established master in the art.

Now, why has this confusion arisen?

The answer is given by Robert Freke Gould in his [I]"History of Freemasonry Its Antiquities, Symbols, Constitutions, Customs, Part 2" where he deals with the question of Elias Ashmole's initiation into Freemasonry.

This is what he says:

Anderson started this confusion (I believe quite deliberately) and it was made worse by William Preston who repeated this entirely false connection between the Masons Company (the administrative organisation for working Masons) and our York Lodge which merely rented their hall in London for a meeting of what was an entirely speculative Lodge, as they always have been since time immemorial.

The earliest surviving record of a speculative lodge in Scotland is that of the Lodge of Edinburgh dating from 8 June 1600; and the first record of the initiation of a non-operative mason in a lodge is contained in the minutes of the Lodge of Edinburgh for 3 July 1634.

grandsecretary
07-09-2009, 04:53 PM
The earliest surviving record of a speculative lodge in Scotland is that of the Lodge of Edinburgh dating from 8 June 1600; and the first record of the initiation of a non-operative mason in a lodge is contained in the minutes of the Lodge of Edinburgh for 3 July 1634.

Steve, what is a Free Mason?
Who initiated the first recorded speculative freemason, and who initiated them?

Answer these questions and then we can talk about where Free Masonry comes from and from what date.

This operative/speculative nonsense has to stop. We are talking about religious matters here and reverence for sacred stones. Free Stone Masonry. This did not start in a Glasgow pub unless that was where the Stone of Scone was hidden.

You cannot claim that the Grand Lodge of Scotland is "freemasonry as WE understand it today" when it is not "Free Masonrie as WE understand it today". You are not the arbiter, and you cannot square a circle.

We would not wish that King Athelstan should be considered a freemason "as you understand it today". That is the whole point.

stewart edwards
07-09-2009, 05:29 PM
We are talking about religious matters here and reverence for sacred stones. Free Masonry. This did not start in a Glasgow pub unless that was where the Stone of Scone was hidden.Ah the stone. Now there is something very close to my heart. Next you will be telling us about the ancient crystals Peter:eek: If by chance you do happen to be in possession of one have you noticed its sparkle over the past few years?

grandsecretary
07-09-2009, 05:37 PM
Ah the stone. Now there is something very close to my heart. Next you will be telling us about the ancient crystals Peter:eek: If by chance you do happen to be in possession of one have you noticed its sparkle over the past few years?

Stewart I would rather talk about what the permanency of stone meant to the ancient religions and how they used it for religious purpose, not esoteric mumbo jumbo such as crystal healing.

Here is a Christian reference:

1 Peter 2:4-8

And coming to Him as to a living stone, rejected by men, but choice and precious in the sight of God, you also, as living stones, are being built up as a spiritual house for a holy priesthood, to offer up spiritual sacrifices acceptable to God through Jesus Christ. For this is contained in Scripture: "Behold I lay in Zion a choice stone, a precious corner stone, and he who believes in Him shall not be disappointed." This precious value, then, is for you who believe. But for those who disbelieve, "The stone which the builders rejected, this became the very corner stone," and, "A stone of stumbling and a rock of offense"; for they stumble because they are disobedient to the word, and to this doom they were also appointed.

The Druids used stone circles representing Gods. The Sun, the Moon etc.

For centuries our monarchs have been crowned standing or sitting on sacred stones as symbols of their king priestly sacred authority conferred uon them by the divine law giver. King Athelstan was crowned standing upon his stone which may still be seen and touched in the streets of Kingston-upon-Thames.

These uses pre-date ancient Egypt. The pyramids were constructed using stone, as were their temples. The same in Rome, "... and upon this rock I will build my Church." The Abbeys, Cathedrals and Churches were built in stone. We place stones at the head of every grave in every churchyard in the land.

There was no worth in the fashion - there was no wit in the plan -
Hither and thither, aimless, the ruined footings ran -
Masonry, brute, mishandled; but carven on every stone;
“After me cometh a Builder. Tell him I, too, have known.”
Swift to my use in my trenches, where my well-planned ground-works grew,
I tumbled his quoins and ashlars, and cut and reset them anew.
Lime I milled of his marbles; burned it, slacked it and spread;
Taking and leaving at pleasure the gifts of the humble dead.

Kipling

The Theological and Mythological Background to Oaths

From earliest times, organised Freemasonry has drawn upon a Judaeo-Christian tradition. This tradition is one in which some earlier religious forms have been accommodated, including a reverence for stone. In northern Europe, true oaths have always been considered to be of a permanent nature, and to have been "stone like" in their durability. We know from the writings of the Danish medieval historian Saxo Grammaticus (c.1150 to c.1206), who had been asked by Bishop Absalon to write a history which included that of the heathens, that in earliest times when the "ancients" chose a king they would stand on stones proclaiming in this act the steadfastness of their commitment, and likening it to the enduring nature of the stones themselves.

One may also consider within this tradition the continuing symbolic importance of the Stone of Destiny, or as it is sometimes called the Stone of Scone, used in the coronation of the British monarch as part of this notion of steadfastness and commitment found within the northern European tradition. The actual stone, a sandstone block, weighing a little over three hundred and thirty pounds, was captured by Edward I in 1296 and placed in Westminster Abbey, where, as part of the throne of Edward the Confessor. it has been used ever since by English and British monarchs during their coronation ceremonies.

Although some claim biblical origin for the stone, and that it is a holy relic, what is known is that Dalriadic, Scottish, English, and then British monarchs have employed the stone realising its profound symbolic power. The stone, returned to Scotland on St Andrew's Day 1996, retains its potency for political exploitation. Alex Salmond, Scotland's First Minister, claimed earlier this month (August 2008) that the stone captured by the English King, whom Mr Salmond bitterly refers to as "the most ruthless king in Christendom", was a fake, and that he believes that the true stone was hidden from King Edward somewhere in the Perthshire hillside.

We know too that in classical times the Iuppiter Lapis (Jupiter Stone) was considered to represent the god Jupiter, and in a sense was the god, as Jupiter's role as the divine law giver was confirmed by the fetial, one of the twenty priestly officials concerned with international relations, when standing at that point as the representative of the people, in the act of treaty making. The terrible penalty for breaking the oath entered into was made plain at the time of sacrifice which formed an integral part of the ceremony.

Stone has, of course, always possessed a profound relevance within the ceremonies of Freemasonry, and the Old and New Testaments are repleted with religious and ceremonial references to stone. We know that in England early Christian churches were often built upon already existing religious sites (sic. Kilwinning for instance). Such sites were frequently marked out by the presence of sacred stones, as is likely to be the case with St Mary's Church at Eversley, in north-Hampshire, where a sarsen stone is located between the font and the choir stalls. Charles Kingsley served as Rector at Eversley from 1844 to 1875, and we will return to Kingsley later, when considering the nature of mental reservation, along with Kingsley's disagreement with John Henry Newman over its use when making statements of fact, or belief.

We read in the Old Testament frequent references to the steadfastness of stone, and the token of permanence proffered by it. The stone set by Samuel between Mizpeh and Shen and named "Ebe-nezer", betokened the help of the Lord.

There is, as Sir James Frazer made abundantly clear, a common custom of swearing upon a stone, and Frazer thought it likely that it was the strength and stability of the stone that provided confirmation of an oath. The strength and stability of the stone could be readily contrasted with the frailties to which mortal men were heir.

The notion of "confirmation" in respect of oaths is vitally important if the true nature of an oath is to be recognized. Such confirmation demands the invocation or referral to a power greater than that of the mortal person sworn.

When God made his ever-lasting promise to Abraham, a promise found in Genesis, "He sware by Himself", because it was not possible to swear by any greater power. 4 It is this aspect of oath making, the nature of the supreme power evoked, which makes oaths and obligations indispensible within Freemasonry, as well as requiring within Freemasonry a real belief in God, a "Supreme Being". If the prevaracations and devices found recently upon some Masonic websites, designed to avoid the need for a real belief in God, a "Supreme Being" holds sway, then the whole basis for the obligation entered into by the candidate simply disappears.

The great advantage recognized by our Masonic predecessors, who followed a Judeo-Christian approach when framing our Constitutions and our ceremonies, was within this tradition, as the writer of Hebrews makes clear, there was a standard of confirmation by which the actual obligation entered into could be judged or measured:

For men verily swear by the greater; and an oath for confirmation is to them an end of all strife. SOURCE: Oaths, Oath Taking, Equivocation and Mental Reservation by Richard Martin Young, Lecturer in International Constitutional Law, Southampton University, Grand Chancellor of The Grand Lodge at York

See: http://grandlodge.blogspot.com/2008/08/oath-oath-taking-equivocation-and.html for the entire article, including detailed references and attributions.

The swearing of Masonic oaths upon sacred or religious stones has nothing whatsoever to do with "operative freemasonry", the tradesmen actually laying stones to form a building, but the extremely ancient religious traditions of swearing sacred Masonic/stone religious oaths of secrecy.

The concerted effort to suggest that Free Masonry somehow suddenly became"speculative" in the late 17th century (i.e. no longer guilds of tradesmen) is a spurious attempt to rob true Free Stone Masonrie of its sacred and religious heritage dating from time immemorial.

Place God and Stone into your web browser and read what comes up.

stewart edwards
07-09-2009, 06:39 PM
Stewart I would rather talk about what the permanency of stone meant to the ancient religions and how they used it for religious purpose,Please do. You may also may find it useful to consider the effects that such stone has on our world to this very day.

not esoteric mumbo jumboPeter one day I hope that you are able to see that esoterics is far from being mumbo jumbo but is not only hidden in the fabric of each of our daily lives but in many ways is the very structure of it. A fair bit of what you write can be incorporated into esoterics. One day I hope you can see this.

such as crystal healing.You have me muddled with someone from the New Age Peter. I was referring to the ancient crystals of this planet, some of which history records having been kept in stone, stone as it happens that was considered to be of the Gods of the time.

grandsecretary
07-09-2009, 06:42 PM
To serve the illuminati as zionist puppets .

It's about twenty to seven in the evening.

grandsecretary
07-09-2009, 06:57 PM
Please do. You may also may find it useful to consider the effects that such stone has on our world to this very day.

Peter one day I hope that you are able to see that esoterics is far from being mumbo jumbo but is not only hidden in the fabric of each of our daily lives but in many ways is the very structure of it. A fair bit of what you write can be incorporated into esoterics. One day I hope you can see this.

You have me muddled with someone from the New Age Peter. I was referring to the ancient crystals of this planet, some of which history records having been kept in stone, stone as it happens that was considered to be of the Gods of the time.

No I haven't Stewart.

It was the notion that stone represented the Sacred King Ruler that brought about the ancient priestly oath taking ceremonies, using sacred stones (the Sacred King Ruler or Rulers) as witnesses to the oath, guarantors of truth, and punishers for transgression.

It has nothing to do with the ACTUAL properties of the stones Stewart, but what they represented and were used for. For instance, Stonehenge.

We still use such stones in exactly the same way, as with the Stone of Scone. The Stone of Scone has no magical properties Stewart. It is a lumpen block of sandstone. It represents, politically, the supremacy of the crowned monarch allowing her to exercise her devolved Sacred power and authority conferred by God by dint of hereditary succession (whether you believe in it or not).

Whether there are stones that have certain properties, such as crystals, is a whole different subject and we MUST not confuse the issue.

stewart edwards
07-09-2009, 07:07 PM
It has nothing to do with the ACTUAL properties of the stone Stewart, but what they represented and used for. For instance, Stonehenge.Pity, for the enegries of the ages held by ancient stones is a valuable piece of the puzzle. It is more than a mere symbol (though a valuable symbol it has to be said) but also a magnetic powerhouse.

The actual physical properties of a piece of sandstone may well be crumbling old stone after a few thousand years, but those grains harness all sorts of other properties, which directly influence the world today through inspiration, motivation, attraction, hope, quests etc.

Representation and useage are indeed important but they represent and are used for very good reasons, it is not arbitrary.

stewart edwards
07-09-2009, 07:19 PM
The Stone of Scone has no magical properties Stewart.I wouldnt use the word magical but are you sure? Really sure? After all it inspires Scotsmen far and wide. It is saught by monarchs. It helps people dream. It comforts. It guides.

It is a lumpen block of sandstone.Indeed.

It represents, politically, the supremacy of the crowned monarch allowing her to exercise her devolved Sacred power and authority conferred by God by dint of hereditary succession (whether you believe in it or not).It represents a nation. It empowers. It inspires. It comforts. Once you start to delve into the esoterics of the stone it is facinating. While not being directly comparable it has many similarities to the fabled Arthurian Sword in the Stone. But clearly you are welcome to consider this to be romantic nonsense if you wish.

Re hereditary succession I dont mind who is monarch as long as they lead well. And I for one respect and value our Queen (even in the remote and unlikley possibility of me having Stewart blood in me - something which I have no rational reason to suspect by the way but this is the David Icke site).

grandsecretary
07-09-2009, 07:55 PM
Pity, for the enegries of the ages held by ancient stones is a valuable piece of the puzzle. It is more than a mere symbol (though a valuable symbol it has to be said) but also a magnetic powerhouse.

The actual physical properties of a piece of sandstone may well be crumbling old stone after a few thousand years, but those grains harness all sorts of other properties, which directly influence the world today through inspiration, motivation, attraction, hope, quests etc.

Representation and useage are indeed important but they represent and are used for very good reasons, it is not arbitrary.

As I have explained. And I hope that the explanation now does away with the silly Moderns operative/speculative nonsense.

Free Stone Masonry is religious Oath taking with penalties that require a belief in the immortality of the soul. Without these essential elements there can be NO Free Masonry, ancient, modern or any other kind, including the Orients of France, Italy and now the United States of America.

nihil
07-09-2009, 07:58 PM
French Revolution was a Masonic practice .

kadosh
07-09-2009, 11:53 PM
While it is both simplistic and specious to lay the responsibility for the French Revolution at the door of Freemasonry, there is no question that freemasons, as individuals, were active in building, and rebuilding, a new society. Considering the large number of bodies claiming masonic authority, many men identified today as freemasons were probably unaware of each other’s masonic association and clearly cannot be seen as acting in concert. Yet they did share certain beliefs and ideals. http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/texts/revolution.html

nihil
07-09-2009, 11:56 PM
Considering the large number of bodies...

killed by masonic orders ??

stevepenny
08-09-2009, 07:33 AM
Steve, what is a Free Mason?
Who initiated the first recorded speculative freemason, and who initiated them?

From memory I would say Robert Moray was the first recorded speculative Freemason, but as to who initiated him, I have no idea....but I can find out.

stevepenny
08-09-2009, 07:48 AM
Just for the record I would like to point out the Grand Lodge of All England is not wholly representative of Freemasonry in the UK.

The vast majority of Masonic Lodges in England and Wales (5000+) are represented by the United Grand Lodge of England; and in Scotland (800+), the Grand Lodge of Scotland.

We are trying to go back to what it was, a religion to which all men who believe in the exoteric may belong.

This is the kind of quote from the so called Grand Secretary that does the most harm to the craft. Freemasonry never was a religion, isn't a religion, and never will be a religion.

If you want to talk Freemasonry or have questions about the true nature of this gentle craft; then try asking somebody who knows; not a self-styled individual who is talking for a very small percentage of Freemasons.

keystone
08-09-2009, 09:20 AM
As I have explained.Yes its understood what your POV is.

And I hope that the explanation now does away with the silly Moderns operative/speculative nonsense.Please stop your continued assertations that you (as in we) are the sole guardians of ancient Free Masonrie. We understand you believe that. I personally remain to be convinced as do others. You are entitled to your POV and you are entitled to express it - just please stop ramming it down everybodies throats. Live and let live please. There'll be another slap coming your way soon. :D

Cheers

keystone
08-09-2009, 09:34 AM
Just for the record I would like to point out the Grand Lodge of All England is not wholly representative of Freemasonry in the UK.

The vast majority of Masonic Lodges in England and Wales (5000+) are represented by the United Grand Lodge of England; and in Scotland (800+), the Grand Lodge of Scotland.



This is the kind of quote from the so called Grand Secretary that does the most harm to the craft. Freemasonry never was a religion, isn't a religion, and never will be a religion.

If you want to talk Freemasonry or have questions about the true nature of this gentle craft; then try asking somebody who knows; not a self-styled individual who is talking for a very small percentage of Freemasons.

Oh no don't start him off again pleeeeease!

He ONLY ever says he represents his own GLAE and noone else.

Whatever we as individuals may think of GLAE they have a right to exist and to express their opinions. Live and let live.

Now can I go back to sorting him out on other issues?

Cheers

keystone
08-09-2009, 09:36 AM
@GS

There are questions that I have asked you in this and other threads recently which have gone unanswered probably because the've got bogged down in a plethora of other stuff rather than any other reason. ;)

Shall I start a new thread which includes them all specifically for you or would you like to respond within the thread concerned?

Cheers

grandsecretary
08-09-2009, 11:43 AM
While it is both simplistic and specious to lay the responsibility for the French Revolution at the door of Freemasonry, there is no question that freemasons, as individuals, were active in building, and rebuilding, a new society. Considering the large number of bodies claiming masonic authority, many men identified today as freemasons were probably unaware of each other’s masonic association and clearly cannot be seen as acting in concert. Yet they did share certain beliefs and ideals. http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/texts/revolution.html

I agree wholeheartedly with this.

grandsecretary
08-09-2009, 11:56 AM
Just for the record I would like to point out the Grand Lodge of All England is not wholly representative of Freemasonry in the UK.

The vast majority of Masonic Lodges in England and Wales (5000+) are represented by the United Grand Lodge of England; and in Scotland (800+), the Grand Lodge of Scotland.



This is the kind of quote from the so called Grand Secretary that does the most harm to the craft. Freemasonry never was a religion, isn't a religion, and never will be a religion.

If you want to talk Freemasonry or have questions about the true nature of this gentle craft; then try asking somebody who knows; not a self-styled individual who is talking for a very small percentage of Freemasons.

No doubt everyone who is not a Moderns freemason here will notice that Mr Penny has not answered one single question, or dealt with one single issue, but once again relies upon abuse towards me personally, and our Grand Lodge to boot.

He is also, quite deliberately, writing off the true and genuine form of Anglo-Saxon Free Masonry prior to the inception of his quasi-Masonic system (1723) which undoubtedly, eventually, recruited a large membership. However, it only achieved this by disgracefully misusing and manipulating the English legal system in an effort to eliminate the opposition. What actually happened was that it was partly driven underground and partly exiled.

We stand by every word that we have posted here, including the many hundreds of sources that we have quoted in support of all of our claims and statements.

If your freemasonry is not a religion, then perhaps you can explain why your higher degrees is a closed shop to non-Christians, a strictly Christian only organisation?

I have NEVER claimed to speak for freemasonry as a whole, I speak officially on behalf of The Grand Lodge of All England. Please once again refer to the disclaimer that appears on each and every one of my postings here.

"Hiram Abiff was probably never heard of in a Lodge until after 1717... The legend of the Third Degree was introduced by the newcomers into Masonry ... (SOURCE: Albert Pike 1886, Ancient and Accepted Scottish Rite of Freemasonry by Charles Sumner Lobingier, 1932)

I asked you - who initiated your first recorded "speculative freemason" and who initiated them. If you don't answer these very reasonable questions then why should anyone listen to you, at all?

grandsecretary
08-09-2009, 12:08 PM
Yes its understood what your POV is.

Please stop your continued assertations that you (as in we) are the sole guardians of ancient Free Masonrie. We understand you believe that. I personally remain to be convinced as do others. You are entitled to your POV and you are entitled to express it - just please stop ramming it down everybodies throats. Live and let live please. There'll be another slap coming your way soon. :D

Cheers

Then you and your friends should not make statements that are untrue. Live and let live - United Grand Lodge of England/Grand Lodge of All England requires mutual respect.

Now read Mr Penny's latest post and my response. It IS a response to a dishonest attack upon me and our Grand Lodge. The remedy is clearly in your hands.

Apparently we must justify every dot, line and comma, but your lot are far too important to justify anything, and you haven't.

grandsecretary
08-09-2009, 12:10 PM
Oh no don't start him off again pleeeeease!

He ONLY ever says he represents his own GLAE and noone else.

Whatever we as individuals may think of GLAE they have a right to exist and to express their opinions. Live and let live.

Now can I go back to sorting him out on other issues?

Cheers

Thank you keystone. You see my problem. False claims and propoganda cannot go unanswered.

grandsecretary
08-09-2009, 12:13 PM
@GS

There are questions that I have asked you in this and other threads recently which have gone unanswered probably because the've got bogged down in a plethora of other stuff rather than any other reason. ;)

Shall I start a new thread which includes them all specifically for you or would you like to respond within the thread concerned?

Cheers

PM me and we will talk about it. One of the biggest problems that I struggle with is that there are simply too many questions on too many threads and I do not want to give the impression that I am avoiding them, when I do not wish to avoid any. With a separate thread, if it is to be a discourse between you and me, then those who would find it boring or uninteresting could avoid it.

keystone
08-09-2009, 12:15 PM
Then you and your friends should not make statements that are untrue. Live and let live - United Grand Lodge of England/Grand Lodge of All England requires mutual respect. Now read Mr Penny's latest post and my response. It IS a response to a dishonest attack upon me and our Grand Lodge. The remedy is clearly in your hands.Did you not see my response to him posted earlier in the day wherein I supported you? He is not my friend I have never even met him. Edit - Oh I see you did see it as I was typing the original of his post.

Apparently we must justify every dot, line and comma, but your lot are far too important to justify anything, and you haven't.I take exception the the "your lot" remark frankly. "Noone speaks for Freemasonry" is a well known aphorism. We all (or should at any rate) post here and elsewhere as individuals and if we have personal opinions to express then we should be able to do so.

Cheers

grandsecretary
08-09-2009, 12:29 PM
Did you not see my response to him posted earlier in the day wherein I supported you? He is not my friend I have never even met him. Edit - Oh I see you did see it as I was typing the original of his post.

I take exception the the "your lot" remark frankly. "Noone speaks for Freemasonry" is a well known aphorism. We all (or should at any rate) post here and elsewhere as individuals and if we have personal opinions to express then we should be able to do so.

Cheers

Well please appreciate my problem then. Mr Penny is a Moderns. I called him one of yours (a Modern) because he is not one of ours (an All England) so you can either do what you have already done, and for which I thanked you, or leave me to deal with him. You do not have to intervene on everything.

If one of yours (not meant to be derogatory in any way) repeats worn out propoganda that has the potential to cause damage to Free Masonrie, and then refuses to back it up, then I am entitled to ask him to do so. You are entitled to ask him to give it a rest, as you have done.

The fact that he does not, or cannot, speaks volumes. Silence implies assent.

I am not here as an individual, as you very well know. I speak officially on behalf on our Grand Lodge and all of its members and supporters. I will do my job.

keystone
08-09-2009, 01:13 PM
Well please appreciate my problem then. Mr Penny is a Moderns. I called him one of yours (a Modern) because he is not one of ours (an All England) so you can either do what you have already done, and for which I thanked you, or leave me to deal with him. You do not have to intervene on everything.

If one of yours (not meant to be derogatory in any way) repeats worn out propoganda that has the potential to cause damage to Free Masonrie, and then refuses to back it up, then I am entitled to ask him to do so. You are entitled to ask him to give it a rest, as you have done.

The fact that he does not, or cannot, speaks volumes. Silence implies assent.

I am not here as an individual, as you very well know. I speak officially on behalf on our Grand Lodge and all of its members and supporters. I will do my job.

Of course I appreciate your "problem" as you would put it. I see what you mean by "one of yours" but I would ask you to consider something you wrote a little while ago along the lines of "please do not lump me i with everyone else" and apply it in the reverse direction.

Yes, I am grafteful for your thanks but I have intervened there in the interests of harmony because if he had gone on in the same vein then you (recent history would dictate) chuck your teddy in the corner big time which would be counterproductive n'est pas.

That he has not replied to you yet may be an indicator that he does not have all day to spend here rather than a wilful intention not so to do. To imply otherwise is, with respect, rather inflamatory. For example I wasn't on here at all yesteray due to other commitments.

Please don't assume that everyone else is here to speak on behalf of "their Grand Lodge". They are not. You are unique in being able to do so.

You do not have to intervene on everything.
Oh and yes I will post as and when I see fit. You cannot stop me nor should you presume to.

Cheers

grandsecretary
08-09-2009, 02:22 PM
Of course I appreciate your "problem" as you would put it. I see what you mean by "one of yours" but I would ask you to consider something you wrote a little while ago along the lines of "please do not lump me i with everyone else" and apply it in the reverse direction.

Yes, I am grafteful for your thanks but I have intervened there in the interests of harmony because if he had gone on in the same vein then you (recent history would dictate) chuck your teddy in the corner big time which would be counterproductive n'est pas.

That he has not replied to you yet may be an indicator that he does not have all day to spend here rather than a wilful intention not so to do. To imply otherwise is, with respect, rather inflamatory. For example I wasn't on here at all yesteray due to other commitments.

Please don't assume that everyone else is here to speak on behalf of "their Grand Lodge". They are not. You are unique in being able to do so.


Oh and yes I will post as and when I see fit. You cannot stop me nor should you presume to.

Cheers

keystone you are making excuses for Mr Penny. I have been asking him very reasonable questions and he has been responding but refusing to answer.

It is not a case of him not having time, and that is obvious if you read the thread. Also, it must be pointed out, that these questions were not simply asked out of the blue. They were in direct response to unsupported statements made by him. Statements that are untrue, and detrimental to our Grand Lodge. He uses blatant propoganda, repeated unsupported statements, and they cannot go unanswered. Silence implies assent.

When have I "thrown the teddy out" keystone?

I have been blocked by four forums, two masonic UGLE's, one masonic GOUSA, and the Vatican. Some people can't put up with dissent. Their problem, not mine.

My teddy was not thrown out with any of them. I simply would not put up with their nonsenses. Any idiot can start a forum and invite their idiot friends to come along to "join the gang". The old numbers game. Don't say that you don't know what I am talking about. The owner holds the key to the lock.

I cannot say that I will never leave a forum but I am very happy here because I will probably never be outnumbered by Masons with an agenda, (we all have an agenda), particularly members of the UGLE, or any other masonic institution. My agenda is to speak on behalf of Free Masonrie (all of it) prior to 1723, Anderson's first Book of Constitutions, and the current members and supporters of the revived Grand Lodge. That is my remit and my job.

The David Icke Forum is a reasonably level playing field and it does debate the issues, some of the time. I also have the advantage of agreeing with many of the thoughts and ideas expressed by the non-Masons here.

I have stopped posting on three other Masonic forums, but I may return to them one day, when they lift unfair conditions that have been placed upon me, but do not place upon members of their own jurisdictions.

I cannot say that I will never leave a forum, but I assure you that I can handle people like Mr Penny on an open public forum such as this one.

One of yours:

Steve Penny is one of yours, a Modern. Now I do appreciate that you do not want to be lumped in with him, but he does it to you, not me. He does not make clear that he is only expressing a personal opinion, at all. See post #1041.

He assumes, in fact pretends to speak for Freemasonry, contending that ONLY the UGLE IS Freemasonry, a quite ridiculous claim.

He does this by citing X thousand members and X thousand lodges, and uses this to suggest that every member agrees with him, including you, and furthermore, because you are Moderns in large numbers everyone outside of the UGLE is automatically wrong, and not even a Free Mason. How insulting is that?

"A million lemmings can't be wrong". I don't think so, do you?

Tell him not to do it. I agree with you, but I can't tell him. Talk to him Modern to Modern. He might listen to you, or even answer the questions in order to back up his statements (not opinions).

kadosh
08-09-2009, 02:49 PM
On 20 May 1641 Robert Moray was initiated into Freemasonry whilst garrisoned at Newcastle upon Tyne the Masonic officers who initiated him were General Alexander Hamilton, commander of the Coventantor' Army in Newcastle and John Mylne, Master Mason to King Charles I. Although he was initiated into a Scottish lodge, (St. Mary's Chapel) the event took place south of the Scottish border: this is earliest extant record of a man being initiated into speculative Freemasonry on English soil. Thereafter, he regularly used the five pointed star, his masonic mark, on his correspondence. After his initiation into the Craft there is only one other record of his attendance at a meeting of the Lodge of Edinburgh, which was on 27 July, 1647, on the occasion of the admission of William Maxwell, doctor off Fisick ordinate to his Maj’stie hines, when he signed the minute of the meeting. - http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/texts/moray_r.html

grandsecretary
08-09-2009, 04:13 PM
On 20 May 1641 Robert Moray was initiated into Freemasonry whilst garrisoned at Newcastle upon Tyne the Masonic officers who initiated him were General Alexander Hamilton, commander of the Coventantor' Army in Newcastle and John Mylne, Master Mason to King Charles I. Although he was initiated into a Scottish lodge, (St. Mary's Chapel) the event took place south of the Scottish border: this is earliest extant record of a man being initiated into speculative Freemasonry on English soil. Thereafter, he regularly used the five pointed star, his masonic mark, on his correspondence. After his initiation into the Craft there is only one other record of his attendance at a meeting of the Lodge of Edinburgh, which was on 27 July, 1647, on the occasion of the admission of William Maxwell, doctor off Fisick ordinate to his Maj’stie hines, when he signed the minute of the meeting. - http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/texts/moray_r.html

kadosh, nobody doubts these minutes, but that is all they are, minutes. This proves that a meeting took place to initiate a free mason, but who initiated the initiators? Where did it all come from. Surely nobody is suggesting that this is the first meeting - ever?

Have you read this: http://grandlodge.blogspot.com/2008/08/elias-ashmole-fact-fiction-and.html

This leads me to ask you, as a Moderns freemason, what do you think about the bald statement that "organised freemasonry began in the tiny back room of a London Ale-house in 1717"?

By the way your pseudonym here "kadosh" belongs to the Céli Dé Movement, the Priest Architects of that time. It pre-dates the A&ASR by many hundreds of years.

kadosh
08-09-2009, 06:09 PM
kadosh, nobody doubts these minutes, but that is all they are, minutes. This proves that a meeting took place to initiate a free mason, but who initiated the initiators? Where did it all come from. Surely nobody is suggesting that this is the first meeting - ever?

Of course this was not the first meeting ever. No one has claimed that as far as I am aware. Those involved with the initiation ceremony of Moray were also presumably from Scotland and ergo that is where they became Masons.

The Origins of Freemasonry: Scotland's Century, 1590-1710. 1988; Cambridge: Cambridge University Press, 1990:

"Professor David Stevenson's two interlocking books on the seventeenth-century Scottish experience provide solid information about a subject previously known only in vague terms. The First Freemasons examines the evidence about all identifiable Scottish lodges; The Origins of Freemasonry (besides recapitulating the most significant findings of the other book) considers the broader nature of Freemasonry. Stevenson, however, does more than amass an impressive pile of evidence. He audaciously attempts to revise the accepted view of Masonry's beginnings. If previous historians have disagreed about the precise nature of the shift from operative to speculative Masonry, they have overwhelmingly cited the creation of a Grand Lodge in London during 1717 as a key turning point. Stevenson challenges this view, arguing that the event was "almost an irrelevance in the long process of development of the movement" (Origins, p. 4). What he prefers to call "modern freemasonry," for reasons that will become clear later, actually began during the previous century in Scotland. Stevenson's books represent a major advance in knowledge, making Scottish issues more significant in the broader history of the fraternity. But they do not convincingly overturn the more accepted view. ....

Although the lodges remained relatively secret, Stevenson convincingly shows that at least seven lodges were founded or first became known around the time of the Schaw statutes. In all, some twenty-five similar lodges met, or had met, in Scotland by 1710. These organizations sometimes admitted non-Masons, both gentlemen and other craftsmen, into their fellowship. Stevenson cites Sir Robert Moray, initiated into a lodge in 1641 and a leader in the early English Royal Society, as a central example of this new Masonic experience. Moray's letters boast about his membership in explanations of the pentangle he had chosen as his personal symbol before his initiation and then later selected as his mason's mark. Stevenson also suggests that the ideals of "modern freemasonry" (a term he uses because Scottish Masonry was clearly not speculative), such as morality, sociability, and friendship, are visible in Scottish lodges. After surveying the far less substantial evidence for English Free- masonry during the same period, he argues that the more developed Scottish groups formed the basis of the speculative fraternity. ...

The idea, however, clearly arouses Stevenson's national pride. He accuses the benighted who deny Scottish precedence of being either class snobs (for suggesting that Freemasonry needs to be based upon noncraftsmen) or prejudiced against Scots (seeking "to pander to the patriotic prejudices of English masons" [Origins, p. 4]). But charges of pandering, even delivered with alliterative flair, cannot erase the substantial differences between the Scottish lodges and the later speculative fraternity that was quite clearly exported from England, even, as Margaret C. Jacob points out, into Scotland itself. The earlier groups still exhibited the parochial narrowness attacked by both the Enlightenment and later Masonry. Stevenson finds no visiting at all between lodges and, after the Schaw documents, virtually no recognition on the part of members that other lodges existed - except when their territorial jurisdiction was threatened. Despite the intermittent involvement of non-Masons, these groups ultimately sought to serve craftsmen. ... "

kadosh
08-09-2009, 06:19 PM
.... This leads me to ask you, as a Moderns freemason, what do you think about the bald statement that "organised freemasonry began in the tiny back room of a London Ale-house in 1717"?
The key word here it seems is 'organised.' And if the sentence quoted also included the words "as we know it today" then it would be correct to say - "organised freemasonry as we know it today began in the tiny back room of a London Ale-house in 1717."

grandsecretary
08-09-2009, 06:24 PM
Thank you for answering the question.

I agree with Professor Stevenson, especially his point about the attacks of the Enlightenment. I must tell you that we too firmly believe that Free Masonrie was established in Scotland way before it arrived in England.

He is also correct about the number of lodges in Scotland before 1717, and we know of 129 such lodges in England, and 7 overseas before 1717.

During the building of St. Paul's [around 1675], Wren was the zealous Master of the St. Paul's Freemason's Lodge, which assembled at the "Goose and Gridiron," one of the most ancient lodges in London. He presided regularly at its meetings for upwards of eighteen years. He presented the lodge with three beautifully carved mahogany candlesticks, and the trowel and mallet which he used in laying the first stone of the great cathedral in 1675. In 1688 Wren was elected Grand Master of the order, and he nominated his old fellow-workers at St. Paul's, Cibber, the sculptor, and Strong, the master mason, Grand Wardens. In Queen Anne's reign there were 129 lodges—eighty-six in London, thirty-six in provincial cities, and seven abroad. Many of the oldest lodges in London are in the neighbourhood of St. Paul's. (SOURCE: British History Online Chapter XXII, St Paul's Churchyard)

The problem arises because these were not Lodges as the English Moderns would describe them. Members of both ancient organisations were members of the order, meeting locally in lodges or "meeting places".

Anybody who wanted to call the meeting or attend it did so on equal terms. Any qualified or Passed Master could sit in the chair. They were not members of the local lodge.

stevepenny
08-09-2009, 06:38 PM
No doubt everyone who is not a Moderns freemason here will notice that Mr Penny has not answered one single question, or dealt with one single issue, but once again relies upon abuse towards me personally, and our Grand Lodge to boot.

As I do not recall seeing any questions other than the one relating to the first speculative Mason (which I have answered) then perhaps you would ask them again.

He is also, quite deliberately, writing off the true and genuine form of Anglo-Saxon Free Masonry prior to the inception of his quasi-Masonic system (1723) which undoubtedly, eventually, recruited a large membership. However, it only achieved this by disgracefully misusing and manipulating the English legal system in an effort to eliminate the opposition. What actually happened was that it was partly driven underground and partly exiled.

If you can show me where I 'wrote it off' then we can deal with this like adults. Perhaps you should refrain from making wild accusations.

We stand by every word that we have posted here, including the many hundreds of sources that we have quoted in support of all of our claims and statements.

I would expect nothing less.

If your freemasonry is not a religion, then perhaps you can explain why your higher degrees is a closed shop to non-Christians, a strictly Christian only organisation?

Perhaps you can show me where the 'Blue Lodge' requires adherence to a specific faith. There is no higher degree than Master Mason; all others are side-degrees.

Do not confuse the Blue Lodge with the RA or other 'side' degrees.

I have NEVER claimed to speak for freemasonry as a whole, I speak officially on behalf of The Grand Lodge of All England. Please once again refer to the disclaimer that appears on each and every one of my postings here.

Does your browser insert extra words into forum posts? My words were as follows:

Just for the record I would like to point out the Grand Lodge of All England is not wholly representative of Freemasonry in the UK.

.....a self-styled individual who is talking for a very small percentage of Freemasons.

Now unless I miss my guess I never made the claim that you speak for Freemasonry as a whole; it just surpises me how quick you jumped to defend a position that you were never accused of.

The whole point of my original post was to differentiate between the the two Grand Lodges.

I asked you - who initiated your first recorded "speculative freemason" and who initiated them. If you don't answer these very reasonable questions then why should anyone listen to you, at all?

And I answered Robert Moray on May 20th 1641. However I do not know who initiated them.

Why should this piece of knowledge mark somebody out as being knowledgeble of Freemasonry.

If it's a quiz you are after perhaps you can establish your bona-fides by answering the following; and i'll make it real simple:

Decipher the anagram in the York No 2 MS?

stevepenny
08-09-2009, 06:42 PM
The fact that he does not, or cannot, speaks volumes. Silence implies assent.

Silence does speak volumes; it speaks of a person who has been at work all day. In this case silence implies that I have a life....

Get over it.

stevepenny
08-09-2009, 06:50 PM
I have been blocked by four forums, two masonic UGLE's, one masonic GOUSA, and the Vatican. Some people can't put up with dissent. Their problem, not mine.

I wonder why...

My agenda is to speak on behalf of Free Masonrie (all of it) prior to 1723, Anderson's first Book of Constitutions, and the current members and supporters of the revived Grand Lodge. That is my remit and my job.

Now you have qualified your 'remit' perhaps we can move on. A lot has happened since 1723, all of which is relevant.

He assumes, in fact pretends to speak for Freemasonry, contending that ONLY the UGLE IS Freemasonry, a quite ridiculous claim.

Again, where did I claim this?

He does this by citing X thousand members and X thousand lodges, and uses this to suggest that every member agrees with him, including you, and furthermore, because you are Moderns in large numbers everyone outside of the UGLE is automatically wrong, and not even a Free Mason. How insulting is that?

Again you twist words to suit your argument. Where did I suggest that everybody agrees with me? I only point out that in England UGLE is the major GL and in Scotland, GLoS.

If you spent more time reading posts properly rather than posting these lies, then perhaps we could talk about something more interesting.

grandsecretary
08-09-2009, 06:52 PM
Perhaps you can show me where the 'Blue Lodge' requires adherence to a specific faith. There is no higher degree than Master Mason; all others are side-degrees.

And I answered Robert Moray on May 20th 1641. However I do not know who initiated them.

Why should this piece of knowledge mark somebody out as being knowledgeble of Freemasonry.

If it's a quiz you are after perhaps you can establish your bona-fides by answering the following; and i'll make it real simple:

Decipher the anagram in the York No 2 MS?

1) Sir Robert Moray was initated after Elias Ashmole was initiated in England.

Moray, a Scots Mason, was initiated in a Scottish travelling Lodge in 1641. Ashmole was initiated on October the 16th, 1640 at 4,30 p.m. at Kerminkham, Warrington in an English speculative Free Mason's Lodge. There is no doubt about it. And this was far from being the first initiation.

2) I do not know about this one. Which anagram in the York No 2 are you referring to, and who told you it was an anagram? I am very wary of supposed anagrams?

Here is a new question. Have you read postings #1059 and 1061? If you do, would you please comment?

nihil
08-09-2009, 06:57 PM
http://img338.imageshack.us/img338/8721/orleansh.jpg

The Masonic 'meditation room' in Orleans, France

kadosh
08-09-2009, 07:02 PM
Freemasonry and Natural Religion - http://www.freemasonrytoday.com/12/p10.php

This article is an attempt to discuss how Freemasonry in the English tradition gradually tended away from the Christianity of the operative masons to the ‘natural religion’ of the Enlightenment from the 14th century onwards. .......

It may be observed that the Old Charges have almost without exception a positively Christian character. The Points of these documents enjoined the mason to love God and uphold the Holy Church. For instance, the second oldest document, the Cooke MS of c.1410 says of the mason that “hit behoveth hym fyrst princypally to [loue] god and holy chyrche and alle halowis.” (Cooke MS. 23, 198 British Library). Thus the First General Charge of the Grand Lodge No 1 MS of 1583 laid it down: “That ye shall be true men to God and Holy Church, and you shall use no error nor heresy by your understanding or discretion but be ye discreet men or wise men in each thing.” (Grand Lodge No.1. MS, 1583, in F. Pick & G. Knight, The Pocket History of Freemasonry, Frederick Muller, London 1992, p.38). .......

Looking at English Freemasonry as a whole, it may be said that 1815 rather than 1723 was really the date on which the final break with an explicitly Christian frame of reference took place. The spirit of Anderson triumphed after the rivalries, as the Antients had to sacrifice their Christianity; religious universality and natural religion were established. Freemasonry became a lowest-common-denominator of religions, a Religion behind religions in which all men agreed, excluding only “the stupid atheist and irreligious libertine.”

grandsecretary
08-09-2009, 07:09 PM
I wonder why...

I only point out that in England UGLE is the major GL and in Scotland, GLoS.



1) Forums: No need to wonder why, I told you why, because they would not put up with dissent, and I gave them plenty. They held the key and they locked the door.

Some people don't have the guts (or perhaps the inclination) to support their bogus claims and statements. One locked his forum and then proceeded to slander me personally and also the Grand Lodge to such a vile extent that we are preparing a law suit (not the first one I might say). As I said, any fool can open a forum.

2) Size of membership: But that is relatively recent. The Grand Lodge of London were continually cancelling their meetings because they couldn't find enough bodies (7) to fill the chairs and open the meeting.

Thomas Dunckerley reports in his diaries of 1754 that his initiation was cancelled "several times" because they "could not find enough Masons in London" to sit in the officer's chairs to open the Lodge.

That was 37 years after the meeting in 1717.

"Upon enquiry it would appear, that all their boasted supremacy is derived from an obscure person, who lived about sixty-two years ago, and whose name is not to be found on record amongst Ancient or Modern Masons." ... "Such are the words of the most authentic history amongst Modern Masons, and beyond contradiction prove the origin of their supremacy to be a self-created assembly. Nor was a self- creation the only defect: They were defective in numbers. (SOURCE: Ahiman Rezon, by Laurence Dermott, Grand Secretary of the "Antients" Grand Lodge of Free and Accepted Masons According to the Old Institution, published by Southwick & Hardcastle, 2 Wall Street, New York, 1805)

We have not cancelled a single meeting for this reason, and we only revived the Grand Lodge at York less than 4 years ago.

Size is not an issue Steve, it is truth and the future that matters. The Christian religion was started by 12 initiates and one Master.

kadosh
08-09-2009, 07:10 PM
1) Sir Robert Moray was initated after Elias Ashmole was initiated in England.

Moray, a Scots Mason, was initiated in a Scottish travelling Lodge in 1641. Ashmole was initiated on October the 16th, 1640 at 4,30 p.m. at Kerminkham, Warrington in an English speculative Free Mason's Lodge. There is no doubt about it. And this was far from being the first initiation.


No, it was not 1640. Ashmole was initiated on 16 October 1646. - http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/biography/ashmole_e/ashmole_e.html

kweli
08-09-2009, 07:34 PM
I understood the powers of the Supreme Council towards the end of 1997.

I realised that there were murky dealings in 2002. I became involved in protests which were fruitless because of the power exerted by the few who pack Grand Lodge Communications with those who will not vote against them. I decided that enough was enough in 2005.

I have never known a resolution to be voted down in the Communications of Grand Lodge. In over 20 years I have only ever known of one brave man who stood up and protested. He was met with silence, and subsequently vilified.

I hope that this clarifies what happened, and why I resigned in order to assist in the revival of the true and genuine form of Free Masonrie.

Thank you. Still don't know how you could have hung around so long having lost so much faith; must have been a very painful and disturbing time for you. Are you sure you've got it right this time?

grandsecretary
08-09-2009, 07:51 PM
Freemasonry and Natural Religion - http://www.freemasonrytoday.com/12/p10.php

This article is an attempt to discuss how Freemasonry in the English tradition gradually tended away from the Christianity of the operative masons to the ‘natural religion’ of the Enlightenment from the 14th century onwards. .......

It may be observed that the Old Charges have almost without exception a positively Christian character. The Points of these documents enjoined the mason to love God and uphold the Holy Church. For instance, the second oldest document, the Cooke MS of c.1410 says of the mason that “hit behoveth hym fyrst princypally to [loue] god and holy chyrche and alle halowis.” (Cooke MS. 23, 198 British Library). Thus the First General Charge of the Grand Lodge No 1 MS of 1583 laid it down: “That ye shall be true men to God and Holy Church, and you shall use no error nor heresy by your understanding or discretion but be ye discreet men or wise men in each thing.” (Grand Lodge No.1. MS, 1583, in F. Pick & G. Knight, The Pocket History of Freemasonry, Frederick Muller, London 1992, p.38). .......

Looking at English Freemasonry as a whole, it may be said that 1815 rather than 1723 was really the date on which the final break with an explicitly Christian frame of reference took place. The spirit of Anderson triumphed after the rivalries, as the Antients had to sacrifice their Christianity; religious universality and natural religion were established. Freemasonry became a lowest-common-denominator of religions, a Religion behind religions in which all men agreed, excluding only “the stupid atheist and irreligious libertine.”

Well although the UGLE article repeats the stupid operative/speculative propoganda, because that is all it is, thank you sincerely for confirming that "religious universality and natural religion" were established by Anderson. That, my friend is a stark and clear admission that the Moderns form of freemasonry was and is a new "Universal Natural Religion". You can't hide it. It is there for all to read. It did not exist before Anderson and the Moderns.

I must inform you that at that very moment, the Moderns form of freemasonry became irregular, as well as clandestine.

Why? Masonic regularity is decided by one thing, and one thing only, a strict adherence to the Ancient Landmarks which demand a belief in one God, the Creator and Preserver of all things, and the immortality of souls.

Please see here: http://grandlodge.blogspot.com/2007/12/regularity-and-recognition-myth-and.html

If you want to know why these beliefs are so necessary, then it is also necessary for us to discuss what a Free Mason IS. It is for very practical reasons.

If you are not prepared to debate this issue, then there is no point in debating anything else masonic.

So, please, tell us what, in your opinion, a Free Mason actually IS? I will answer for our Grand Lodge any time you ask.


Different issue. The Old Charges were all Christian in character. But Free Masonrie is pre-Davidic, pre-Christian, as are the Old Charges.

Anderson did not have to remove God and the immortality of souls from his Constitutions. He deliberately changed it, by order of his masters, The Invisible College of The Rosicrucian Brotherhood (also confirmed above).

God was changed to "a" supreme being and the Holy Book to the "Volume of the Sacred Law".

Rosicrucians, and Moderns freemasons too (confirmed by you) believe that God and Nature are one and the same (Deus Sive Natura).

That means that virtually anybody can indulge in what is known as classic mental reservation. When such a man says that he believes in God, in fact, he does NOT believe in God, he believes in God and Nature as a single indivisible entity. It denies God as the Creator of Heaven and Earth and it denies that, after death, the immortal soul rises unto God to be judged.

Now, whether you will like me saying this, or not, it must be said. This philosophy is both irreligious and blasphemous. it is deeply insulting to any Jew, Christian, Muslim, Hindu, Sikh or Christian Buddhist.

That is why all of the major established Churches and religions reject the Moderns form of freemasonry and disapprove of it.

It is the essential and main reason why the Roman Catholic Church automatically excommunicates all Catholics who become freemasons and almost the entire Muslim world bans it, confiscates property, imprisons and /or executes freemasons.

Anderson, Pike and their cronies certainly have a lot to answer for in Hell where they are undoubtedly in residence alongside their best friend, Lucifer.

stewart edwards
08-09-2009, 08:15 PM
Rosicrucians, and Moderns freemasons too (confirmed by you) believe that God and Nature are one and the same (Deus Sive Natura).Come on Peter can you really say that all modern freemasons believe this? Even the Roman Catholic ones? Also some may believe that as God created everything, there is a spark of the Divine in everything, and hence God is to be found in nature, just as he is to be found in man.

That means that virtually anybody can indulge in what is known as classic mental reservation. When such a man says that he believes in God, in fact, he does NOT believe in God, he believes in God and Nature as a single indivisible entity.......[thinking]....... It denies God as the Creator of Heaven and Earth and it denies that, after death, the immortal soul rises unto God to be judged.In my opinion ....rubbish. It denies nothing of the sort, it values and treasures that God created everything. It most certainly does not deny that you are judged having found myself there recently. Peter in this instance your analysis doesnt hold water. Unless you are prepared to tell me that I dont know what I am talking about my relationship with God. Are you prepared to suggest that?

kadosh
08-09-2009, 10:19 PM
If you want to know why these beliefs are so necessary, then it is also necessary for us to discuss what a Free Mason IS. It is for very practical reasons.

If you are not prepared to debate this issue, then there is no point in debating anything else masonic.

So, please, tell us what, in your opinion, a Free Mason actually IS? I will answer for our Grand Lodge any time you ask.

I have a feeling that your answer might be along the line of that the GLAE continue to ordain the Masonic Priesthood.

keystone
08-09-2009, 10:34 PM
Come on Peter can you really say that all modern freemasons believe this? Even the Roman Catholic ones? Also some may believe that as God created everything, there is a spark of the Divine in everything, and hence God is to be found in nature, just as he is to be found in man.

In my opinion ....rubbish. It denies nothing of the sort, it values and treasures that God created everything. It most certainly does not deny that you are judged having found myself there recently. Peter in this instance your analysis doesnt hold water. Unless you are prepared to tell me that I dont know what I am talking about my relationship with God. Are you prepared to suggest that?

Concur.

Cheers

keystone
08-09-2009, 10:35 PM
I have a feeling that your answer might be along the line of that the GLAE continue to ordain the Masonic Priesthood.Almost a stone-cold racing certainty. Lets see. ;)

Cheers

stevepenny
08-09-2009, 10:55 PM
1) Sir Robert Moray was initated after Elias Ashmole was initiated in England.

Hmmmm, Ashmole's own diary claims that he was initiated in 1646 in Warrington. He even lists those who were present.

I do not know about this one. Which anagram in the York No 2 are you referring to, and who told you it was an anagram? I am very wary of supposed anagrams?

I would have thought you would have known this immedaitely, after all, you (as in the GLAE) are I assume in possesion of the York No 2 MS?

Here is a new question. Have you read postings #1059 and 1061? If you do, would you please comment?

I've dropped them onto a USB stick, i'll try to read them tomorrow. If I don't reply tomorrow don't take the silence as assent; take it as somebody who has a few days off and is taking his wife away for a short break. If you don't hear from me tomorrow i'll be back on Monday.

For the record I am interested in what you have to say; I may or may not agree; but I am interested. Perhaps my initial post was a little rash; however mainstream Freemasonry gets enough bad press as it is without you adding fuel to the fire by making (in my opinion) spurious and ill founded claims.

I've been a Mason for nearly 30 years and have studied it with interest. I understand the 'party-line' of the GLoS and UGLE, and have my own views based on my own research.

Hopefully we will have the opportunity to discuss some of the issues in the coming weeks and months.

Don't take this the wrong way but you questioned my knowledge and have been undone by Ashmole's own hand; perhaps you could enlighten me as to why you think he was wrong?

If you haven't managed to answer my question by next week i'll point you in the right direction...

With regards

grandsecretary
08-09-2009, 10:56 PM
Come on Peter can you really say that all modern freemasons believe this? Even the Roman Catholic ones? Also some may believe that as God created everything, there is a spark of the Divine in everything, and hence God is to be found in nature, just as he is to be found in man.

In my opinion ....rubbish. It denies nothing of the sort, it values and treasures that God created everything. It most certainly does not deny that you are judged having found myself there recently. Peter in this instance your analysis doesnt hold water. Unless you are prepared to tell me that I dont know what I am talking about my relationship with God. Are you prepared to suggest that?

1) No I do NOT think that all Moderns freemasons believe it, not at all. In fact, I believe that a diminishing majority do NOT believe it, and neither do they realise what they are getting into. Placing their immortal souls in grave danger.

2) I am afraid that you are simply wrong Stewart and I can prove it by asking you to explain this:

Why is the Roman Catholic Church so opposed to "the Natural Religion of the freemasons"? They excommunicate freemasons, automatically.

Why do you think that Islam is so violently opposed to "the Natural Religion of the freemasons"? They hang or behead freemasons.

Why do you think that the Baptists are opposed to "the Natural religion of the freemasons"?

Why do you think that the Methodists are opposed to "the Natural religion of the freemasons" etc., etc., etc.

I am afraid that theological normalcy is on my side in this Stewart and you have read that the Moderns is a self-confessed new Naturalistic Religion that denies God and the immortality of souls. They say so themselves Stewart, you don't have to rely upon what I say.

Stewart, I am sorry but you too are very naive and gullible. Please ask a Catholic Priest or an Imam why they believe that the Moderns form of freemasonry is anathema to them, and then let us know what they say to you.

grandsecretary
08-09-2009, 11:09 PM
Hmmmm, Ashmole's own diary claims that he was initiated in 1646 in Warrington. He even lists those who were present.



I would have thought you would have known this immedaitely, after all, you (as in the GLAE) are I assume in possesion of the York No 2 MS?



I've dropped them onto a USB stick, i'll try to read them tomorrow. If I don't reply tomorrow don't take the silence as assent; take it as somebody who has a few days off and is taking his wife away for a short break. If you don't hear from me tomorrow i'll be back on Monday.

For the record I am interested in what you have to say; I may or may not agree; but I am interested. Perhaps my initial post was a little rash; however mainstream Freemasonry gets enough bad press as it is without you adding fuel to the fire by making (in my opinion) spurious and ill founded claims.

I've been a Mason for nearly 30 years and have studied it with interest. I understand the 'party-line' of the GLoS and UGLE, and have my own views based on my own research.

Hopefully we will have the opportunity to discuss some of the issues in the coming weeks and months.

Don't take this the wrong way but you questioned my knowledge and have been undone by Ashmole's own hand; perhaps you could enlighten me as to why you think he was wrong?

If you haven't managed to answer my question by next week i'll point you in the right direction...

With regards

Please read the Ashmole article here: http://grandlodge.blogspot.com/2008/08/elias-ashmole-fact-fiction-and.html and visit the website of British History on line.

They explain and indeed prove that there were a large number of speculative lodges in England many years before 1717.

I genuinely do not know what you are on about in respect of York MS Number 2 and I cannot outguess you. I/we cannot know everything about everything, and nor does Hughan mention anything about it as far as I can tell. I have photostat copies of Number 2, but I suspect that every second word is an anagram of something. I will comment if you exhibit what you are talking about, and let me know who advised you that it is an anagram.

I am enjoying our exchange of views and thank you for your courtesy.

kadosh
09-09-2009, 01:23 AM
.... I genuinely do not know what you are on about in respect of York MS Number 2 and I cannot outguess you. I/we cannot know everything about everything, and nor does Hughan mention anything about it as far as I can tell. I have photostat copies of Number 2, but I suspect that every second word is an anagram of something. I will comment if you exhibit what you are talking about, and let me know who advised you that it is an anagram.
The 1600 York No. 1 MS and the 1704 York No. 2 MS have the anagram on "Masonrie" (discovered by Bro. Robt. F. Gould, PM QCL 2076).

Much might be said of the noble art,
A craft that is worth esteeming in each part;
Sundry nations, nobles and their kings also,
Oh how they sought its worth to know
Nimrod and Solomon the wisest of all men
Reason saw to love this science, then
I’ll say no more, lest by my shallow verses, I
Endeavouring to praise, should blemish Masonrie.

bluehorseman
09-09-2009, 05:23 AM
You can see though G.Sec why many people here would be suspicious of the motives of Free Masonrie when important information like this is withheld from the general populace? If knowledge is power then not sharing knowledge is the same as keeping the power - why? Especially something as important as how the world was begun/to end.

Do members from all levels of Free Masonrie have the same access to all the information in your libraries or is some information kept for selected members?

There are a couple of questions for you that I would like to know the answer to and if you can't answer them G.Sec I hope any other masons here will

stewart edwards
09-09-2009, 07:33 AM
I am afraid that you are simply wrong Stewart and I can prove itFor clarity Peter as you saying that my own experience and relationship with God is wrong? You sidestepped this one in your answer.

Stewart, I am sorry but you too are very naive and gullible.Ah now this is possible. But is it not possible that I simply look at all sides of an issue and form my own opinion, without being swayed by any party line?

grandsecretary
09-09-2009, 01:34 PM
For clarity Peter as you saying that my own experience and relationship with God is wrong? You sidestepped this one in your answer.

Ah now this is possible. But is it not possible that I simply look at all sides of an issue and form my own opinion, without being swayed by any party line?

Stewart your experience and relationship with God is between you and God. I would not dream of telling you that you are wrong on that issue.

Yes, I know that you look at all sides of the issue. So do I, but I come to conclusions and make decisions. Now, I am not saying that we should not continue the process of looking, but a decision to remain firmly seated in the middle of the road is not a very safe environment.

Where you are wrong Stewart is suggesting that the philosophy "Deus Sive Natura" - "a supreme being" recognises creation. It is quite the opposite of this. Its hypothesis is that God and Nature are one and the same thing. They are NOT the same thing at all in the eyes of those who believe in one God, the Creator and Preserver of all things and the immortality of souls. Now that is not simply me saying this. It is the following list of Churches and Religions and their very learned and qualified theologians:-

The Roman Catholic Church which automatically excommunicates its members who become freemasons, World Islam which imprisons, hangs or beheads freemasons, the Methodist Church of England, the Wesleyan Methodist Church, the Russian Orthodox Church, Assemblies of God, Church of the Nazarene, Orthodox Presbyterian Church, Reformed Presbyterian Church, Evangelical Mennonite Church, The Church of Scotland, Grace Brethren, Christian Reformed Church in America, Synod Anglican Church of England, Free Church of Scotland, General Association of Regular Baptist Churches, etc., etc., etc.

The Moderns form of freemasonry is not only irreligious, but it allows initiates to say that they believe in God, when clearly they do NOT believe in God, but in whatever they wish to choose in "nature". A new naturalistic religion. That is far worse than irreligious it is blasphemous, of this I have no doubt whatsoever.

The Moderns form of freemasonry is, in fact, an insult to anyone who does believe in God, the Creator and Preserver of all things and the immortality of souls. The worst aspect of all this is that the vast majority of its members who do believe in God do not realise what they have involved themselves with, and they must be told because their immortal life is at stake.

grandsecretary
09-09-2009, 01:58 PM
I have a feeling that your answer might be along the line of that the GLAE continue to ordain the Masonic Priesthood.

Priest Masons have been ordained, continuously and uninterrupted in The British Isles since, at least, the 4th century and that is an indisputable historical fact.

That being said, this what a Free Mason IS, not what we say it is: a Free Mason is a man who is called (initiated) to the Priesthood, inspired by God, to instruct men.

Free Masonrie is the centre and source from which radiates the whole system of organized civil and ecclesiastical knowledge and practice, exerting a high standard of religion, justice and patriotism, and a code of moral teaching based upon a firm belief in one God, the Creator and Preserver of all things and the immortality of souls, that will never cease to influence national character.

If he wishes to partake of Masonry in its Original Purity, he will turn his attention to that source, where it hath been Inviolably maintained and continued for Successive Ages to this Day, and where the Legislature of Masonry for this Kingdom stands fixed by its true Title, "The Grand Lodge of All England", Established at the City of York.

Now I predict that you will say that this is not what a Free Mason is, or what Free Masonry is because it conflicts with Anderson's and Pike's considerable list of innovations. So what about an effort to define what YOU believe a Moderns freemason IS, and what Moderns freemasonry IS too? Not a cut and paste this time. Please tell us what you think.

stewart edwards
09-09-2009, 02:24 PM
Peter thank you for your clarification it is apreciated. HoweverWhere you are wrong Stewart is suggesting that the philosophy "Deus Sive Natura" - "a supreme being" recognises creation. It is quite the opposite of this. Its hypothesis is that God and Nature are one and the same thing. They are NOT the same thing at all in the eyes of those who believe in one God, the Creator and Preserver of all things and the immortality of souls. Now that is not simply me saying this. It is the following list of Churches and Religions and their very learned and qualified theologians:-Then I disagree with the chuches. Why? Based on my own personal experiences in life. Not something that I was told to believe but something that I have experienced directly myself in life.

I believe in one God. I believe that God created all and hence the spark of Divinity can be found in all, you, me, the cat, the trees, water, air, everything. I believe that God created these and preserves these, and I know that we are all judged, for I have been there done that and got the t shirt. I also believe that our souls are immortal, and indeed concepts such as reincarnation add conceptual support to such beliefs. So Grandsecretary it is my belief, based on my personal experiences in life, that your view is not the only view. It may make me at odds with all of those churches that you mention (though ministers that I talk to dont seem to have any problems with my theology), and so be it. None of that takes away my connection with God, which is the same connection that you Peter, and everyone else here shares, and indeed the computer that I am using just now and the tree outside my home. I may be just a little more aware of it than many.

Remember Peter that this planet was populated by many civilisations long before any of the modern day religions were even thought about.

Peter I really do admire your courage in following your heart and taking the courageous steps that you have done, illuminating the way for others who are frustrated. But, and this is a big but, as soon as you (or the churches for that matter) start telling me that my beliefs mean things that they most certainly dont, then you loose credibility. In times gone by I may well have been tortured and burnt at the stake for my knowledge of the divine, but fortunately we live in more enlightened times.

Peter in simple terms, your conclusions on this matter do not accord with my life experience.




Added: For clarity I should also point out that I have absolutely no trouble with Gods (plural). While I firmly believe in one God (the Inventor so to speak), his family of Gods can guide. And then you have false gods as illustrated in the great fictional movie and series Stargate (but Re is a good guy!!). Also as everyone and everything was made by God we all have the spark of divinity inside us. Just my personal view. I dont expect anyone to believe it or agree with it, and I certainly wouldn't try to convert anyone to it. But it is what I have found and what has helped enable me to understand the bigger picture of my life. And it has been a stony difficult journey getting to that level of understanding. But I just wanted to clarify my present level of understanding on this matter.

kadosh
09-09-2009, 03:55 PM
.... a Free Mason is a man who is called (initiated) to the Priesthood, inspired by God, to instruct men.
What is the primary source of this quote please? Full text if possible.

nihil
09-09-2009, 09:19 PM
-

Freemasons portray themselves as a good charitable fraternity of men.

Did you know that the ninth degree Masons take their vows to kill for Freemasonry ???? some charity.

-

keystone
09-09-2009, 09:30 PM
-

Freemasons portray themselves as a good charitable fraternity of men.

Did you know that the ninth degree Masons take their vows to kill for Freemasonry ???? some charity.

-Some claim Nihil. I've never heard of it. I guess you can back this assertation up? Chapter and verse in context would be nice please.

Cheers

nihil
09-09-2009, 09:34 PM
.

don't know either/or some england, scotland, Rosslyn Chapel ritual .

http://img169.imageshack.us/img169/8946/almuftilazeemthegrandald.jpg

Al-Muftil Azeem the Grand Al-Mufti “Divan” The Imperial Grand Potentate As-Sayyid Issa Al-Haadi Al-Mahdi Noble Rev. Dr Malachi Z. York El 720 degree

.

keystone
09-09-2009, 09:54 PM
.

don't know either/or some england, scotland, Rosslyn Chapel ritualHelpful answer. Don't believe you then.

If pic not related whats the point of it huh?

Cheers

kadosh
10-09-2009, 02:49 PM
The first-known use of the word Freemasons - in the form Free Masons - occurs in City of London Letter-book H of 9 August 1376, though the word is in fact deleted in favour of Mason. Masons and Freemasons were interchangeable during the 15th and 16th centuries and Freemasons were generally meant to denote hewers or setters of freestone, Masons being used to embrace all stone workers. Elias Ashmole in his diary wrote that he was made a Free Mason and referred in 1686 to the "Fellowship of Free Masons".

Dr. James Anderson when compiling the 1723 Constitutions did not use the single word - Freemasons - once. Whatever the reasons, the 1723 Constitutions contain approximately 126 references to Masons, 12 to Free Masons, 10 to Free and Accepted Masons, 9 to Free-Masons, one to Accepted Free Masons and none to Freemasons. And such is the tenacity of tradition that to this day most of the Constitutions are addressed to Free and Accepted Masons and not to Accepted Freemasons. The earliest-known anti-masonic leaflet, of 1698, warns the public against "those called Free Masons" - almost certainly what we now know as speculative Freemasons.

grandsecretary
10-09-2009, 05:49 PM
Remember Peter that this planet was populated by many civilisations long before any of the modern day religions were even thought about.

Peter in simple terms, your conclusions on this matter do not accord with my life experience.


And although we take FULL account of this truism, we cannot and do not cater for everyone by pursuing an open door policy. Our standards are set as they are for very practical reasons, so that initiates who swear our Sacred Masonic Oaths of secrecy may be trusted. That is Free Masonry.

kadosh
11-09-2009, 01:17 AM
Freemasons, in almost every Grand Lodge, recognize that an abiding belief in God, the Great Architect of the Universe - is the solid foundation upon which the Masonic edifice rests. These brethren regard all those who own allegiance to the isolated Grand Lodges that have broken away from this standpoint as renegade-beyond the pale; and rigorously exclude such backsliders from their Lodge Meetings, as being unworthy of the name of Freemason. ....

This belief in God is no new tenet of the Craft: records demonstrate that it is a Landmark in Masonry coeval with its birth. Let us therefore dig into the past and, by means of such documents as have survived to the present day, establish the truth of this statement. ....

That this Invocation originally was, or in the 17th century became, the opening Prayer of the Lodge is supported by the evidence of the Buchanan MS. (1660 1680), and the Atcheson-Haven MS. (1666), in both of which the Invocation commences "O Lord God, Father of Heaven." The Aberdeen MS. (1670) goes even further, and this Invocation to the Trinity is expressly termed "A Prayer befor the Meeting." In the Freemasons' Pocket Companion, published by J. Scott, in 1754, this Invocation is given as "A Prayer to be used of Christian Masons at the empointing of a Brother: Used in the Reign of Edward IV." We may thus feel assured that the Speculative Mason of the 18th century had no doubt as to the character of the opening sentence of the Old Charges, and the use to which it was put at the making of their Operative Ancestors. .....

Such was the condition of affairs when the Grand Lodge of England was brought into being, in London, in 1717. For how long after this date the Christian Faith was requisite we cannot with certainty state. In 1722 the Roberts Print of the Old Charges was published, with its Invocation to the Trinity, and its clause concerning belief in God. It was not, however, an authorized production, under the aegis of the Grand Lodge of England. Concurrently with the issue of this work Dr. James Anderson was completing the first Edition of the Book of Constitutions, and the Grand Lodge was widening its portals by dropping the definite and distinctive Christian character of the Craft. ....

It is also in Pennell's Constitutions that we have the earliest dated Prayer, other than the Invocation to the Trinity which commenced the Old Charges. This Prayer is entitled "A Prayer to be said at the opening of a Lodge, or making of a Brother," and runs thus: http://www.rgle.org.uk/RGLE_Tenet.htm

grandsecretary
11-09-2009, 01:30 AM
Freemasons, in almost every Grand Lodge, recognize that an abiding belief in God, the Great Architect of the Universe - is the solid foundation upon which the Masonic edifice rests. These brethren regard all those who own allegiance to the isolated Grand Lodges that have broken away from this standpoint as renegade-beyond the pale; and rigorously exclude such backsliders from their Lodge Meetings, as being unworthy of the name of Freemason.

... almost every Grand Lodge ... - What is the basis of this presumed authority?

1717

On 24 June 1717 four London Lodges, which had existed for some time, came together at the Goose and Gridiron Tavern in St Paul’s Churchyard, declared themselves a Grand Lodge and elected Anthony Sayer as their Grand Master. This was the first Grand Lodge in the world. (SOURCE: Website of The United Grand Lodge of England - http://www.ugle.org.uk/what-is-masonry/history-of-freemasonry/)

"No records of any of the "Four Old Lodges" have been made known of a date prior to the London Grand Lodge era ..." (SOURCE: Freemasonry in the Early 1600's and 1700's by W.J. Hughan, Leicester, 25th January 1904)

"It is to be regretted that the records of the "Four Old Lodges" do not antedate those of the 'Grand Lodge', they brought into existence, as fortunately happens in the case of the single lodge which blossomed into the 'Grand Lodge of all England, held at York,' " (SOURCE: The History of Freemasonry, Vol. IV by Robert Freke Gould, 1884)

"Upon enquiry it would appear, that all their boasted supremacy is derived from an obscure person, who lived about sixty-two years ago, and whose name is not to be found on record amongst Ancient or Modern Masons." ... "Such are the words of the most authentic history amongst Modern Masons, and beyond contradiction prove the origin of their supremacy to be a self-created assembly. Nor was a self- creation the only defect: They were defective in numbers. (SOURCE: Ahiman Rezon, by Laurence Dermott, Grand Secretary of the "Antients" Grand Lodge of Free and Accepted Masons According to the Old Institution, published by Southwick & Hardcastle, 2 Wall Street, New York, 1805)


Funny - no mention on the UGLE website of the incumbent Sovereign Masonic authority in England, The Grand Lodge of All England - must have slipped their minds!


"The Earl of Crawford seems to have made the first encroachment on the jurisdiction of the Grand Lodge in the city of York, by constituting two lodges within their district; and by granting, without their consent, three deputations, one for Lancashire, a second for Durham, and a third for Northumberland., This circumstance the Grand Lodge of York highly resented ..." (SOURCE: Illustrations of Masonry by Dr William Preston, 1772)

"In 1735, the Earl of Crawford, Grand Master of England [sic Grand Lodge of London], constituted two Lodges within the jurisdiction of the York Grand Lodge and granted, without its consent, Deputations for Lancashire, Durham and Northumberland. (SOURCE: Encyclopaedia of Freemasonry Part 1, page 327, by Albert Gallatin Mackey and H.L. Haywood, 1909)

I wonder whether I will receive an answer to what should be a simple answer to a simple question: "... almost any Grand Lodge ..." - What is the basis of their presumed authority?

kadosh
11-09-2009, 02:17 AM
What is the primary source of this quote please? Full text if possible.
GrandSecretary: Reminder. See message 1085.

grandsecretary
11-09-2009, 03:01 AM
A belief in God is a historical tenet of Freemasonry.

No, this will NOT do. A belief in one God, the Creator and Preserver of all things and the immortality of souls is an Ancient Landmark which is unchangeable.

I asked you a question, twice.

Your posting #1092

"... almost any Grand Lodge ..." - What is the basis of their presumed authority?

Here is a second question: What does "a" supreme being mean? God is THE Supreme Being, surely?

grandsecretary
11-09-2009, 03:05 AM
The first-known use of the word Freemasons - in the form Free Masons - occurs in City of London Letter-book H of 9 August 1376, though the word is in fact deleted in favour of Mason. Masons and Freemasons were interchangeable during the 15th and 16th centuries and Freemasons were generally meant to denote hewers or setters of freestone, Masons being used to embrace all stone workers. Elias Ashmole in his diary wrote that he was made a Free Mason and referred in 1686 to the "Fellowship of Free Masons".

Dr. James Anderson when compiling the 1723 Constitutions did not use the single word - Freemasons - once. Whatever the reasons, the 1723 Constitutions contain approximately 126 references to Masons, 12 to Free Masons, 10 to Free and Accepted Masons, 9 to Free-Masons, one to Accepted Free Masons and none to Freemasons. And such is the tenacity of tradition that to this day most of the Constitutions are addressed to Free and Accepted Masons and not to Accepted Freemasons. The earliest-known anti-masonic leaflet, of 1698, warns the public against "those called Free Masons" - almost certainly what we now know as speculative Freemasons.

There is an older document in the possession of The Archbishop of Canterbury. I will try to dig out the reference. Please stop repeating this Moderns propaganda operative/speculative nonsense, and it is nonsense. I have proven it to you here and yet to continue to repeat it. That is just plain dishonest.

grandsecretary
11-09-2009, 03:10 AM
GrandSecretary: Reminder. See message 1085.

Full quotation: Free Masonrie is where all men are called to the Priesthood, inspired by God, to instruct men. It is the centre and source from which radiates the whole system of organized civil and ecclesiastical knowledge and practice, exerting a high standard of religion, justice and patriotism, and a code of moral teaching that will never cease to influence national character.

From the website of The Grand Lodge of All England at York: an amalgam of quotes and references. One recent, the rest from various Druidic/Celtic Christian literary works.

kadosh
11-09-2009, 03:46 AM
I asked you a question, twice.

Your posting #1092

"... almost any Grand Lodge ..." - What is the basis of their presumed authority?
?? - I do not understand the syntax of this question. Please restate.

[QUOTE=grandsecretary;1260983] Here is a second question: What does "a" supreme being mean? God is THE Supreme Being, surely?[QUOTE]

Subjective. This is a matter of personal opinion. Your POV carries no more weight than mine or of anyone else.

Let's drop all the semantics.

kadosh
11-09-2009, 03:59 AM
There is an older document in the possession of The Archbishop of Canterbury. I will try to dig out the reference. Please stop repeating this Moderns propaganda operative/speculative nonsense, and it is nonsense. I have proven it to you here and yet to continue to repeat it. That is just plain dishonest.
Please do so, and also inform Bro. Neville Cryer of York at the same time. You have only substantiated what you want to believe and that only concerns the claims of GLAE. This has nothing at all to do with what UGLE may choose to claim.

kadosh
11-09-2009, 04:05 AM
From the website of The Grand Lodge of All England at York: an amalgam of quotes and references. One recent, the rest from various Druidic/Celtic Christian literary works.
One recent?!! What was that exactly? Date and who by?

grandsecretary
11-09-2009, 04:33 AM
?? - I do not understand the syntax of this question. Please restate.

[QUOTE=grandsecretary;1260983] Here is a second question: What does "a" supreme being mean? God is THE Supreme Being, surely?[QUOTE]

Subjective. This is a matter of personal opinion. Your POV carries no more weight than mine or of anyone else.

Let's drop all the semantics.



No, let's not avoid questions when you so vehemently demand that I answer yours, as I do.


1) This is what you posted here in your #1092

Freemasons, in almost every Grand Lodge, recognize that an abiding belief in God, the Great Architect of the Universe - is the solid foundation upon which the Masonic edifice rests. These brethren regard all those who own allegiance to the isolated Grand Lodges that have broken away from this standpoint as renegade-beyond the pale; and rigorously exclude such backsliders from their Lodge Meetings, as being unworthy of the name of Freemason. ....

I asked you the authority claimed by "almost every Grand Lodge" which entitles them to make such statements such as "unworthy of the name of Freemason". Which of these Grand Lodges owns Freemasonry to such an extent that it feels able to make such a preposterous and insulting statement?


2) You then go on to claim some sort of spurious connection with the Old Charges, including the Atcheson-Haven MS. (1666) and the The Aberdeen MS. (1670) which are both pre-Moderns, and certainly pre-Anderson and his "a supreme being".

Now, let's deal with the issue, not semantics.

You said that, "A belief in God is a historical tenet of Freemasonry". I could not agree more with you.

But then you went on to say that the God of Anderson and the Moderns system of freemasonry "a supreme being" is subjective, a matter of personal opinion, and that my point of view carries no more weight than yours or anyone else. This is where we part company.

Perhaps you would at least try to explain how all three things - "God" - "a supreme being" - "a matter of personal opinion" - could possibly be one God, the Creator and Preserver of all things?

Let me try to explain. I had this conversation on another forum a couple of years ago, with another Mason in the United States.

He told me that as freemasonry was not a religion, and had no dogma, that he did not have to believe in God.

I replied that he could not therefore be a Freemason.

He said that he believed in "a supreme being".

I asked him what that meant.

He replied, as you have, it means anything that he wanted it to mean, a matter of personal opinion.

I asked him what it was, in his personal opinion.

He thought for quite some time before he came up with this explanation. He said that he worshipped German sausage and ate it every morning for his breakfast.

He said that when he was asked, "In all cases of difficulty and danger in Whom do you put your trust" he felt quite happy when he said "In God" but really meant "German sausage", what he considered, in his personal opinion, to be his "a supreme being".

That was when I coined the phrase for American Moderns Masons, The German Sausage Masons. It was a joke, please don't take offense.

So I ask you again. What is "a supreme being"? Is it one God the Creator and Preserver of all things, or could it be a German Sausage?

If it is God, then why did Anderson introduce the words "a supreme being", and what are you going to do with these German Sausage masons, whose word you clearly cannot trust when they say that they will keep your secrets Sacred and inviolate?

What is the punishment if they don't? Withdrawal of mustard rights?

grandsecretary
11-09-2009, 04:44 AM
One recent?!! What was that exactly? Date and who by?

The wording was agreed by the Grand Master Mason, advised by the Grand Chancellor and updated on the webpage by myself, if I remember correctly, about 3 weeks ago.

It was a re-wording with no change to the substance or meaning. We believe that it is rather good, much clearer, and succinct.

You have been very demanding. Why don't you answer my questions now?

keystone
11-09-2009, 08:13 AM
You have only substantiated what you want to believe and that only concerns the claims of GLAE. This has nothing at all to do with what UGLE may choose to claim.Yes it does because that forms a very, very key plank of the thesis. Oh and you missed out "... or not to claim" in respect of UGLE.

Cheers

grandsecretary
11-09-2009, 10:06 AM
Yes it does because that forms a very, very key plank of the thesis. Oh and you missed out "... or not to claim" in respect of UGLE.

Cheers

Exactly keystone I agree. The definition of what a Free Mason, and what Free Masonry actually IS, is vital to the debate if sole ownership is claimed, by any Masonic body. This ENTIRE problem, and the endless discussions that we have here are caused by THE FOLLOWING:

As the mother Grand Lodge of the world we have a responsibility to share our experience with those younger Grand Lodges who ask for advice and support. We are the arbiters of regularity and our recent conference on that subject left overseas Grand Lodges in no doubt where we stand on the matter. (SOURCE: Final address to the members of The United Grand Lodge of England by Lord Northampton, Pro Grand Master)

Which results in statements like this:

Freemasons, in almost every Grand Lodge, recognize that an abiding belief in God, the Great Architect of the Universe - is the solid foundation upon which the Masonic edifice rests. These brethren regard all those who own allegiance to the isolated Grand Lodges that have broken away from this standpoint as renegade-beyond the pale; and rigorously exclude such backsliders from their Lodge Meetings, as being unworthy of the name of Freemason. ....

GS is not a Freemason (SOURCE: constant and repeated sniping by thelonius, on this very forum)

These statements are simply untrue, and quite disgraceful. Is there any wonder that the claimed "regularity" of those who make such insupportable and quite ridiculous public claims are questioned, and when it is proven, beyond all reasonable doubt, that they are false, provocative and damaging claims, severely criticised?

This is the statement by our Grand Master Mason, John Gordon Graves in response to this, immediately after Lord Northampton's public statement:

"Regularity is of course an essential doctrine in Freemasonry but has in recent years been subject to ill-considered assault from within the Craft itself. Freemasonry is not, and never has been, subject to or contained within the United Grand Lodge of England. To suggest as much is to diminish the history, role and actuality of Freemasonry. Regularity requires a strict acceptance and observance of the Ancient Landmarks of the Order. Regularity is represented by adherence: nothing more, nothing less. It is not, and cannot ever be, bestowed. Indeed, Regularity is necessarily beyond the capacity of anybody or any organisation whatsoever to bestow, be they Grand Master or Grand Lodge."

This remains our policy and our opinion.

Now, in terms of Masonic regularity, and adherence to the Ancient Landmarks of the Order, my posting #1093 is also key, and it calls for a clear and unequivocal answer.

kadosh
11-09-2009, 10:38 AM
THE GRAND LODGE OF ALL ENGLAND AT YORK RITUAL Its Form And Spirit by V.Wor.Bro. the Revd Neville Barker Cryer, M.A., P.G.C. http://www.cornerstonesociety.com/Insight/Articles/york.pdf

"Claiming a traditional origin from a so-called Charter for working masons issued by Athelstan, the first Anglo-Saxon monarch called King of All England, this Masonic unit was known as the Grand Lodge of All England at York. Such a title did not mean what it seems, a claim to oversee Freemasonry in all parts of this realm. All it meant was the area once known as Northumbria, stretching from the Humber to Dunbar. .....

What was manifest in the Grand Lodge of All England at York was a continuing attachment to certain older fashions of belief and practice that sat oddly with the rather more liberal and comprehensive approach that was soon established by the Premier Grand Lodge through its fresh Constitutions. ....

Conditioned as I was for much of my Masonic career to regard the events of 1717 in London as the proper starting point for all Freemasonry it was a revelation to discover that what a Dr. Plot had said about the spread of Freemasonry across England in the 17th century was apparently based on fact. In Chester, York and London, in Chichester and Staffordshire, to name but a few places, there was clearly an ancestry of Freemasonry that was associated with both working and non-working masons during the previous century. In York we have definite evidence of a Masons's Guild lodge in 1663 and persons connected with that body are linked by family with the Lodge whose continuous Minute books are known to have existed from at least 1705. What is more the Lodge that then emerges is also no longer a Lodge associated only with the stonemasons’ trade though members of that trade continue as members of it. ..... "

************************************************** ************************************************** *******
YORK MYSTERIES REVEALED - http://freemasonrytoday.com/37/p17a.php - The publication of Neville’s book is one of the most important recent events in masonic scholarship. It is essential reading for all those interested in the early history of Freemasonry.
************************************************** ************************************************** ********
" .... and in the course of time the Grand Lodge of All England passed gradually out of existence through a process of absorption, perhaps, by the ever growing Grand Lodges that had been established in 1717 and in 1751." http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/uk_grand_lodges.html

kadosh
11-09-2009, 10:48 AM
In Christian Theology, the term Supreme Being can refer to God, the Father. It can also be used to refer to the Christian Trinity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. Supreme Being - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

kadosh
11-09-2009, 10:54 AM
I asked you the authority claimed by "almost every Grand Lodge" which entitles them to make such statements such as "unworthy of the name of Freemason". Which of these Grand Lodges owns Freemasonry to such an extent that it feels able to make such a preposterous and insulting statement?
That particular statement was made by the author of the paper. I assume it was his personal POV.

grandsecretary
11-09-2009, 11:59 AM
THE GRAND LODGE OF ALL ENGLAND AT YORK RITUAL Its Form And Spirit by V.Wor.Bro. the Revd Neville Barker Cryer, M.A., P.G.C. http://www.cornerstonesociety.com/Insight/Articles/york.pdf

"Claiming a traditional origin from a so-called Charter for working masons issued by Athelstan, the first Anglo-Saxon monarch called King of All England, this Masonic unit was known as the Grand Lodge of All England at York. Such a title did not mean what it seems, a claim to oversee Freemasonry in all parts of this realm. All it meant was the area once known as Northumbria, stretching from the Humber to Dunbar. .....

What was manifest in the Grand Lodge of All England at York was a continuing attachment to certain older fashions of belief and practice that sat oddly with the rather more liberal and comprehensive approach that was soon established by the Premier Grand Lodge through its fresh Constitutions. ....

Conditioned as I was for much of my Masonic career to regard the events of 1717 in London as the proper starting point for all Freemasonry it was a revelation to discover that what a Dr. Plot had said about the spread of Freemasonry across England in the 17th century was apparently based on fact. In Chester, York and London, in Chichester and Staffordshire, to name but a few places, there was clearly an ancestry of Freemasonry that was associated with both working and non-working masons during the previous century. In York we have definite evidence of a Masons's Guild lodge in 1663 and persons connected with that body are linked by family with the Lodge whose continuous Minute books are known to have existed from at least 1705. What is more the Lodge that then emerges is also no longer a Lodge associated only with the stonemasons’ trade though members of that trade continue as members of it. ..... "

************************************************** ************************************************** *******
YORK MYSTERIES REVEALED - http://freemasonrytoday.com/37/p17a.php - The publication of Neville’s book is one of the most important recent events in masonic scholarship. It is essential reading for all those interested in the early history of Freemasonry.
************************************************** ************************************************** ********
" .... and in the course of time the Grand Lodge of All England passed gradually out of existence through a process of absorption, perhaps, by the ever growing Grand Lodges that had been established in 1717 and in 1751." http://www.freemasons-freemasonry.com/uk_grand_lodges.html

Neville is quite wrong as far as the underlined portion is concerned. It reflects the conflict between the Archbishoprics of York and Canterbury and is NOT relevant to Free Masonry, especially as it is clearly explained in the Old Charges:

Here is the relevant reference, conveniently ignored by Neville.

"That ben y-ordeynt by kynge Adelston
These statutes that y have hyr y fonde,
Y chulle they ben holde throh my londe,
For the worshe of my ryolté,
That y have by my dygnyté.
Also at every semblé, that e holde,
Bysechynge hym of hys hye grace,
To stonde with ow yn every place,
To conferme the statutes of kynge Adelston,
That he ordeynt to thys craft by good reson"

King Athelstan was Bretwalda. His jurisdiction spread throughout England, Wales and part of Scotland.

Neville earns his living as a UGLE lecturer and writer. He has long retired as an Anglican Minister, but this colours his view on this issue.

York Mysteries Revealed is an excellent book in many ways. I discussed this book with Neville, which also includes this statement about the geographical jurisdiction of The Grand Lodge of All England.

He is simply quite wrong on the issue. He simply confuses matters by likening the actual jurisdiction of the Grand Lodge at York with the jurisdiction of the Bishopric of York. The battles between the Bishopric of York and the Bishopric of Canterbury has nothing to do with the dispute between the Grand Lodge of All England at York, and the Grand Lodge of London, even though The Grand Lodge at York met regularly in the Crypt of the York Minster.

This is simply a distraction caused by his UGLE prejudices, and not a historical fact. Please try to find independent sources for your assertions and claims, as I do, rather than a biased UGLE spokesmen.

grandsecretary
11-09-2009, 12:15 PM
That particular statement was made by the author of the paper. I assume it was his personal POV.

Then why did you post it? Was it your opinion? Do you understand now why we are having this discussion? An insult is an insult whether it is yours, or merely passed on by you.

Belief in the Great Architect of the Universe A Historical Tenet of Freemasonry by Gilbert W. Daynes, England

Daynes was a UGLE Mason, author of Birth and Growth of the Grand Lodge of England 1717 where he acted as a spokesman for the UGLE and its claim to legitimacy, the Goose and Gridiron, "four old lodges", the lot. He cannot be credited or trusted as a reliable independent source. History should be reported, not invented.

grandsecretary
11-09-2009, 12:33 PM
In Christian Theology, the term Supreme Being can refer to God, the Father. It can also be used to refer to the Christian Trinity of Father, Son and Holy Spirit. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Supreme_Being

Wikipaedia? Do me a favour. Even so:

" ... can refer to God the Father ...

... can also be used ...

means that it ... can also be used to refer to a German sausage ...

And that is the point.

Please answer the questions rather than continually squirming. You demand that I answer yours, and I do.

1) German sausage masons;

2) Why did Anderson change the word "God" to "a supreme being" rather than "The Supreme Being"?

Come on now.

What are you frightened of?

kadosh
11-09-2009, 02:09 PM
It seems to me that this is not a theological matter. Freemasonry is a fraternity, not a religion. Freemasonry brings together men of all religions with those who simply believe in a Supreme Being. Freemasons meet in common respect for the Supreme Being, but He remains Supreme in their individual religions. A belief in God was not inserted into the English Constitution until 1815. (Coil, 1995 p265).

Use in non-religious contexts - Freemasonry: In Masonic ritual the Supreme Being is referred to as TGAOTU. The Great Architect of the Universe is a conceptions of God discussed by many Christian theologians and apologists. As a designation it is used within Freemasonry to neutrally represent whatever Supreme Being to which each member individually holds in adherence .... which alludes to the use of architectural symbolism within Freemasonry. http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Supreme_Being

grandsecretary
11-09-2009, 02:32 PM
It seems to me that this is not a theological matter. Freemasonry is a fraternity, not a religion. Freemasonry brings together men of all religions with those who simply believe in a Supreme Being. Freemasons meet in common respect for the Supreme Being, but He remains Supreme in their individual religions. A belief in God was not inserted into the English Constitution until 1815. (Coil, 1995 p265).

Use in non-religious contexts - Freemasonry: In Masonic ritual the Supreme Being is referred to as TGAOTU. The Great Architect of the Universe is a conceptions of God discussed by many Christian theologians and apologists. As a designation it is used within Freemasonry to neutrally represent whatever Supreme Being to which each member individually holds in adherence .... which alludes to the use of architectural symbolism within Freemasonry. http://www.absoluteastronomy.com/topics/Supreme_Being

Oh please.

" ... neutrally represent whatever Supreme Being to which each member individually holds in adherence ... "

"The Great Architect of the Universe in a non-religious context?"


What next?

So a requirement for a belief in God is not even a theological matter now, and He represents "whatever each member holds in adherence?" - Oh my Word. How can you possibly justify German Sausage Masons who IMHO form a very large proportion of your Moderns membership?

1) And how can you, or why would you wish to, trust them?

2) What or Whom is the guarantor of their Sacred Masonic Oaths, the very basis for Masonic trust?

3) What is the ultimate punishment for transgression, apart from withdrawal of the mustard pot?

These questions cannot be avoided or ignored.

I have reached the conclusion that you simply don't take your freemasonry at all seriously, but you are willing to denigrate those who do. What you have said is that "We may believe in whatever we wish, everything goes, no moral base whatsoever, and yet we are the arbiters of Masonic regularity".

Don't you realise what you are saying?

IMHO what you have described is a loose social club, where you dress up in funny outfits, but for the sake of convenience and mass membership you have thrown the old rules right out of the window." My words.

German sausage Masons please. What are you going to do about them?

kadosh
11-09-2009, 02:44 PM
Your new found Masonry is simply not my Masonry or many of the hundreds of thousands of FMs like me all over the globe. I suspect the Pro GM would agree with me! Anyway each to his own. I don't recollect denigrating your Masonry either.

grandsecretary
11-09-2009, 03:00 PM
Your new found Masonry is simply not my Masonry or many of the hundreds of thousands of FMs like me all over the globe. I suspect the Pro GM would agree with me! Anyway each to his own. I don't recollect denigrating your Masonry either.

The Pro Grand Master was sacked/resigned because he failed to fulfil his promise, to turn around the fortunes of The United Grand Lodge of England. This posting on its own is deeply offensive, and I feel absolutely certain that those who stayed the course, and read our exchanges have reached the same conclusion that I have.

Your message is clear:

1) "Please don't ask me any awkward questions because I will not answer you.

2) Please don't confuse me with fact because I have too many prejudices to be bothered with the truth.

3) I prefer to believe unsubstantiated Moderns propoganda.

4) Free Masonry is an open door to anyone who believes anything and I am happy with this situation.

5) I am happy to share a lodge with German Sausage Masons.

6) My head is firmly planted in the sand."

7) I couldn't care less."

kadosh
11-09-2009, 03:21 PM
I was actually referring to the current Pro GM and not the previous one who has recently retired. You seem to take umbrage very easily when another point of view does not support yours. And I don't think I am alone in that conclusion. Have a nice day.

stewart edwards
11-09-2009, 07:05 PM
The Pro Grand Master was sacked/resigned because he failed to fulfil his promise, to turn around the fortunes of The United Grand Lodge of England.Did he fail?

While change zooms all around us it is natural to seem comfort zones, and the masonic world does appear to be deep in such zones, with clear exceptions. Anyhow looking esoterically at what Lord Northampton achieved it is clear to me that he has made some people pause for thought and inspired others to move forewards. Perhaps not very many just now, but in time these seeds will grow.

Helping a proud institution like UGLE to move forwards is conceptually very easy, but it does take time to help people want to move out of their personal comfort zones. I think that history will show Lord Northamption as being a pioneer in the histroy of UGLE, and as often is the case full appreciation of his achievements may yet be a decade or even several away.

I have no idea what he promised to get the job Peter, but I think that he has achieved far far more than is immediately apparent. From the outside it has been a facinating time to watch ugle.

I am actually a little worried about ugle now that he has gone. It could easily succumb to darkness and backpeddle into the comfort zone more than it needs to to consolidate and move forwards.

grandsecretary
11-09-2009, 07:19 PM
Did he fail?

While change zooms all around us it is natural to seem comfort zones, and the masonic world does appear to be deep in such zones, with clear exceptions. Anyhow looking esoterically at what Lord Northampton achieved it is clear to me that he has made some people pause for thought and inspired others to move forewards. Perhaps not very many just now, but in time these seeds will grow.

Helping a proud institution like UGLE to move forwards is conceptually very easy, but it does take time to help people want to move out of their personal comfort zones. I think that history will show Lord Northamption as being a pioneer in the histroy of UGLE, and as often is the case full appreciation of his achievements may yet be a decade or even several away.

I have no idea what he promised to get the job Peter, but I think that he has achieved far far more than is immediately apparent. From the outside it has been a facinating time to watch ugle.

I am actually a little worried about ugle now that he has gone. It could easily succumb to darkness and backpeddle into the comfort zone more than it needs to to consolidate and move forwards.

This may shock you, but I discussed his objectives with him, at some length, after he was asked to take the job on. He detailed his objectives. Believe me, he failed. Esoterically speaking there is a message there somewhere.

grandsecretary
11-09-2009, 07:21 PM
I was actually referring to the current Pro GM and not the previous one who has recently retired. You seem to take umbrage very easily when another point of view does not support yours. And I don't think I am alone in that conclusion. Have a nice day.

I have not taken umbrage at all. Peter Lowndes would agree with you in public, although privately he is very realistic and straight forward.

I have just stated what the situation is. You demand replies to your questions but you flatly refuse to answer mine.

German Sausage Masons?

1) How can you, or why would you wish to, trust them?

2) What or Whom is the guarantor of their Sacred Masonic Oaths, the very basis for Masonic trust?

3) What is the ultimate punishment for transgression, apart from withdrawal of the mustard pot?

Oh well, I tried.

kadosh
11-09-2009, 07:26 PM
In my opinion 'Spenny' Northampton did a great job during his tenure. I doubt though the current Pro GM will be so ambitious. We have already seen the reverse decision since Northampton retired concerning taking the Royal Arch back to the original declaration. And actually most of the London Masons did not like the idea of the MetGL being formed as a separate entity from the GL as one of Northampton's reforms. Major changes will probably not happen within UGLE until the MWGM retires in my opinion. The GL tercentenary is still some 7 years away.

kadosh
11-09-2009, 07:36 PM
German Sausage Masons?

1) How can you, or why would you wish to, trust them?

2) What or Whom is the guarantor of their Sacred Masonic Oaths, the very basis for Masonic trust?

3) What is the ultimate punishment for transgression, apart from withdrawal of the mustard pot?

Oh well, I tried.
Don't you think the term German Sausage Masons to be derogatory? Why would I not trust them? To me their personal integrity is at stake - if I found I could not trust a member (or anyone for that matter) - but especially a Mason - then they would become persona non grata to me.

Why not find a publisher for the history of Fmy. in England from your own /GLAE POV? I would like to see all that you/GLAE claim written down in some sequential order. Perhaps a scholarly paper on this matter would suffice at this juncture. What about it?

grandsecretary
11-09-2009, 07:44 PM
Don't you think the term German Sausage Masons to be derogatory? Why would I not trust them? To me their personal integrity is at stake - if I found I could not trust a member (or anyone for that matter) - but especially a Mason - then they would become persona non grata to me.

1) derogatory: Not at all, it goes with the rather long (apologies) explanation in #1102 and I stated there, quite clearly, that it was a jokey title. But it makes the point doesn't it?

2) penalty: But what you state is true of any walk of life. Freemasonry is supposed to be different, and frankly a lot more demanding than from any other walk of life. The entire basis of Free Masonry is its secrecy, supported by the swearing of Sacred Masonic Oaths, with real penalties attached to them.

I will give you a prime example. Moderns ritual. Degree of Entered Apprentice.

" ... under no less a penalty than that of having my throat cut across, my tongue torn out by the root, and buried in the sands of the sea, at low watermark, where the tide regularly ebss and flows twice in the twenty four hours."

This sounds just a taj more drastic than simply being "persona non grata to you".

Why have the penalty if the real penalty is only to be persona non grata with you? Would this cause him to resign from freemasonry, or simply lose mustard privileges for a few days? We know that your penalties are symbolic, but symbolic of what?

Masonic ritual means far more than the repetition of mere words that are not understood and never explained to the initiate.

stewart edwards
11-09-2009, 07:45 PM
This may shock you, but I discussed his objectives with him, at some length, after he was asked to take the job on. He detailed his objectives. Believe me, he failed. Esoterically speaking there is a message there somewhere.Mundanely speaking there is a mesage in there, he may have expected to much to soon from too many people who are not ready.

Esoterically speaking he has some real achievements under his belt. Whether he is aware of them or not is another matter.

nihil
11-09-2009, 07:47 PM
GRAND ORIENT FREEMASONRY UNMASKED

As the Secret Power Behind Communism

by GEORGE F. DILLON BRITONS PUBLISHING COMPANY MCMLXV

This work is dedicated to the memory of His Holiness
Pope Leo XIII whose command to the faithful to "tear away
the mask from Freemasonry" inspired the title of the new
edition in 1950.

"Lying is their rule, Satan is their God, and shameful deeds
their sacrifice." Pius VIII, Traditae Humilitati Nostrae, 1829.

nihil
11-09-2009, 07:48 PM
Gregory XVI compares the secret societies to a sink in
which "are congregated and intermingled all the sacrileges,
infamy and blasphemy which are contained in the most
abominable heresies." Gregory XVI, Mirari Vos, 1832.

"Filled with the spirit of Satan, who knows how to transform
himself into an angel of light, Freemasonry puts forward
as its pretended aim the good of humanity. Paying a lip
service to the authority of law, and even to the obligations of
religion, it aims (as its own statutes declare), at the destruction
of civil authority and of the Christian priesthood, both of
which it regards as the foes of human liberty." Leo XIII:
Parvenu a la Vingtcinquieme annee, 1902.

stewart edwards
11-09-2009, 07:53 PM
In my opinion 'Spenny' Northampton did a great job during his tenure. I doubt though the current Pro GM will be so ambitious. We have already seen the reverse decision since Northampton retired concerning taking the Royal Arch back to the original declaration. And actually most of the London Masons did not like the idea of the MetGL being formed as a separate entity from the GL as one of Northampton's reforms. Major changes will probably not happen within UGLE until the MWGM retires in my opinion. The GL tercentenary is still some 7 years away.You dont need to change, you simply need to open more hearts and get them working. You will then reinvigourate. You will then become more relevant to the twenty first century and inspire more interally and externally. And you dont need to change a thing. You probably would end up changing heaps but it would happen naturally, painlessly and easily with the will of the members, in a natural evolutionary manner. All that you would need to do is get back to basics and be Freemasons. No GM need ask any more than this.

It isnt brain surgery nor rocket science. Just plain old simple esoterics in action. It must be an ancient mystery.:D:eek:

But what could a masonic reject possibly know?:rolleyes:

grandsecretary
11-09-2009, 08:06 PM
Why not find a publisher for the history of Fmy. in England from your own /GLAE POV?

I would like to see all that you/GLAE claim written down in some sequential order. Perhaps a scholarly paper on this matter would suffice at this juncture. What about it?

I have quoted masses and masses, literally hundreds of sources, 99% of which are independently sourced and attributed. Rigorous.

Have you not seen our website? If you do not have the time to read it all, and it takes several hours of serious study, I would recommend that you start with the welcome page.

http://www.grandlodgeofallengland.org/

After you have read and digested the welcome page, I suggest that you move to the page entitled "Grand Lodges in England".

http://www.grandlodgeofallengland.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=22&Itemid=30

Then go to the new page "Druids Culdees Masons" which is still under construction.

http://www.grandlodgeofallengland.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=49&Itemid=63

And finally go to "York Grand Masters".

http://www.grandlodgeofallengland.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=39&Itemid=50

Every quote is attributed to a reliable independent source (independent of The Grand Lodge of All England) and at the bottom of the page there is usually an exhaustive list of historical references, masonic and non-masonic.

When you have more time, return whenever you wish, and fill in the rest. We update it on virtually a daily basis because research is ongoing. Approximatey 20% of our visitors are return visits.

We publish scholarly papers on our blog: You might enjoy reading the articles there: http://grandlodge.blogspot.com/

grandsecretary
11-09-2009, 08:14 PM
GRAND ORIENT FREEMASONRY UNMASKED

As the Secret Power Behind Communism

by GEORGE F. DILLON BRITONS PUBLISHING COMPANY MCMLXV

This work is dedicated to the memory of His Holiness
Pope Leo XIII whose command to the faithful to "tear away
the mask from Freemasonry" inspired the title of the new
edition in 1950.

I don't believe that we have any Orient freemasons here to answer your posting. A pity.

grandsecretary
11-09-2009, 08:27 PM
In my opinion 'Spenny' Northampton did a great job during his tenure. I doubt though the current Pro GM will be so ambitious. We have already seen the reverse decision since Northampton retired concerning taking the Royal Arch back to the original declaration. And actually most of the London Masons did not like the idea of the MetGL being formed as a separate entity from the GL as one of Northampton's reforms. Major changes will probably not happen within UGLE until the MWGM retires in my opinion. The GL tercentenary is still some 7 years away.

Don't underestimate Peter Lowndes.

Spenny: IMHO his policy of "openness" was and is a complete disaster. His stated aim? To make freemasonry more accessible, and more like the Round Table with rituals. Why should anyone join a secret society when they are told, quite erroneously, that the only secrets are the "modes of recognition". These "only secrets" are available for free, and at a moments notice by googling the internet, and one does not have to go to lodge meetings so that you can be bullied by the "I am senior to you, you are inferior to me" brigade.

The setting up of the Metropolitan Grand Lodge was a major mistake. Apart from the explosion in extra costs and overheads, this ignored the very special relationship that London had enjoyed with the rest of England. It was an expression of his total ignorance of the history of his own Grand Lodge, as a whole.

The United Grand Lodge of England's power base has been in London since their very beginning, 1717. London always avoided the discredited Provincial system of "promotions" by restricting appointments to London Rank (LR), and it also avoided the system of Charity Festivals with its entirely voluntary/compulsory levies on its members.

Moderns freemasonry in England is far too expensive and getting worse. Spouses and partners will no longer put up with the late nights and the loss of vital family income.

Young men are far too intelligent and independent nowadays to find this system attractive. That is why recruitment is so low, and the leaving ratio dramatically higher.

The worst mistake of all was legislating to take the day to day powers of the Grand Secretary away from him, delegating them to a compliant Board of General Purposes. This effectively turned the incumbent into a powerless eunuch, for no other reason other than to bring to fruition the Spenny regime. This is what Spenny said to me at a social occasion. "I have told them that I will only do the job if I do it my way. If they don't let me, I will give them 5 years and then tell them to f**k off."

He was true to his word and the subsequent reverses by Peter Lowndes are proof that he ran out of wiggle room.

I can't wait for the "tercentenary" when the United Grand Lodge of England will be asked some very searching questions in the full glare of national and international publicity.

marpat
11-09-2009, 08:49 PM
"Filled with the spirit of Satan, who knows how to transform
himself into an angel of light, Freemasonry puts forward
as its pretended aim the good of humanity. Paying a lip
service to the authority of law, and even to the obligations of
religion, it aims (as its own statutes declare), at the destruction
of civil authority and of the Christian priesthood, both of
which it regards as the foes of human liberty." Leo XIII:
Parvenu a la Vingtcinquieme annee, 1902.

That is odd because a person could use the same claim against basically anybody, including the pope.

The church condemns anything that challenges its authority as satanic so the statement is going to be based more on removing rivals then actual truth. I would think the destruction of a priesthood that seem obsessed with child abuse would be a good thing.

kadosh
11-09-2009, 09:17 PM
I have noticed that the hierarchy of both UGLE and SGCE is full of Old Etonians and members of Apollo University Lodge. They often have connections to both.

stewart edwards
11-09-2009, 09:38 PM
I have noticed that the hierarchy of both UGLE and SGCE is full of Old Etonians and members of Apollo University Lodge. They often have connections to both.Funnily enough:-

1. I picked up an old copy of Readers Digest and they ran an article on the Head of Eton. As a lowly state school broken home child I have to say that I agreed with much of what he had to say about the value of Etoniam ideals. What they look for and try to foster. Cant imagine that I would ever even remotely fitted in there but hats off to them.

2. To keep Peter happy:D esoterically Oxford has lots to offer, and I would have to say that I have found the university resources to have been incredibly useful in helping me get to where I am today in several different ways. OK it was largely benignly on behalf of the university but such is the beauty of it all. Again I wouldnt have had any real chance of being accepted into the university, far less Apollo, but it really is an institution of light.

I guess what I am saying is that the mix would appear to be a good one. Whether it is healthy to have an organisation that interacts with society as a whole run by one segment of it is a separate question. It must make it difficult to maintain relevance.

kadosh
11-09-2009, 09:57 PM
Eton College has also provided more Prime Ministers than any other public school. The current Leader of the Opposition is a OE.

decim
11-09-2009, 10:16 PM
GS, what is this "tercentenary" referring to & why will this involve national & international publicity?

When is the "tercentenary"?

Cheers.
I can't wait for the "tercentenary" when the United Grand Lodge of England will be asked some very searching questions in the full glare of national and international publicity.

kadosh
11-09-2009, 10:36 PM
When is the "tercentenary"?
Tercentenary - 300 years : 1717 – 2017.

grandsecretary
11-09-2009, 11:44 PM
I have noticed that the hierarchy of both UGLE and SGCE is full of Old Etonians and members of Apollo University Lodge. They often have connections to both.

Spot on. Apollo Lodge, Oxford University, has supplied the Grand Secretaries for the United Grand Lodge of England and also the Grand Secretaries General for the higher degrees of the Ancient and Accepted Rite, for several generations.

grandsecretary
11-09-2009, 11:59 PM
GS, what is this "tercentenary" referring to & why will this involve national & international publicity?

When is the "tercentenary"?

Cheers.

Because the celebrations will be proclaimed from the rooftops, and it is based upon an entirely false claim.

Despite overwhelming evidence proving it to be a total fallacy, it is still claimed, and often repeated by Moderns freemasons that organised Free Masonry began in 1717 after a meeting in the tiny back room of a London Ale-house under the chairmanship of "a nameless person". Remarkably, this spurious claim for Masonic regularity and recognition is solely based upon alleged proceedings of an unauthorised, profane meeting. (SOURCE: Website of the Grand Lodge of All England at York)

"No records of any of the "Four Old Lodges" have been made known of a date prior to the London Grand Lodge era ..." (SOURCE: Freemasonry in the Early 1600's and 1700's by W.J. Hughan, Leicester, 25th January 1904)

"It is to be regretted that the records of the "Four Old Lodges" do not antedate those of the 'Grand Lodge', they brought into existence, as fortunately happens in the case of the single lodge which blossomed into the 'Grand Lodge of all England, held at York,' " (SOURCE: The History of Freemasonry, Vol. IV by Robert Freke Gould, 1884)

"The reality is that we have no written documents about the foundation of the first Grand Lodge in 1717, no evidence that the members of the four lodges meeting at the Goose and Gridiron Tavern were the successors of the operative stonemasonry which transmitted them its rituals. John Hamill (Chief Librarian of The United Grand Lodge of England) says that "the analysis of the context in England at 1717 demonstrates that the operative lodges had disappeared since a long time. Whatever the four London lodges were at that time, it is established that they could not have been the successors of the Stonemasons' Lodges". (SOURCE: The Scottish Key. An Investigation into the Origins of Freemasonry, by Tristan Bourlard and François De Smet, SimonGo! Productions, 2007)

If the United Grand Lodge of England insists upon going ahead with these "tercentenary" celebrations, then it must expect to be required to provide proof of its claims in respect of the alleged meeting of the "four old lodges" at the Goose and Gridiron Ale-house, the sole basis for its claim to Masonic regularity and legitimacy, and its claimed right to be the sole arbiter of Masonic regularity, a quite preposterous assertion.

They will be asked to so do in the full glare of publicity, both nationally and internationally, of that there is absolutely no doubt whatsoever.

decim
12-09-2009, 01:43 AM
Should be interesting.

Thank Ye

They will be asked to so do in the full glare of publicity, both nationally and internationally, of that there is absolutely no doubt whatsoever.

keystone
12-09-2009, 10:48 AM
Because the celebrations will be proclaimed from the rooftops, and it is based upon an entirely false claim.So you say. It depends what that claim is though and how it is being represented. I see classic politicians trickery going on all over the place.

If the United Grand Lodge of England insists upon going ahead with these "tercentenary" celebrations,I don't see how you can stop the TBH.

then it must expect to be required to provide proof of its claims in respect of the alleged meeting of the "four old lodges" at the Goose and Gridiron Ale-house,Really? I can't see how it MUST be expected to do anything.

They will be asked to so do in the full glare of publicity, both nationally and internationally, of that there is absolutely no doubt whatsoever.Goody. Actually i'm really looking forward to it. Should be an interesting debate. But please don't wait another 7 years. If we are going to have a drama lets have the "full glare of publicity" NOW huh? I too really do want to hear their response. C'mon go for it - don't just rely on your website and the DI forum as your platform.

Cheers

keystone
12-09-2009, 10:56 AM
Would you buy The Lost Symbol by good boy Danny Brownie, masons ??Its a novel for crying out loud. He can say what he wants in it as long as it fits his plot. Trouble is peeps are going to lap it up and "Proof - say told you so, told you so."

Heres my prediction - Dan Brown and his publishers will walk away with a pocket full of moolah and we will see a quite moronic form of hysterical sheeplism which will be just a stupid as those who believe the 911 Commission Report.

Now can I get a cheque the same size as Derren Brown's please for this weeks little stunt?

You don't think Dan, Derren and Gordon are related do you? :eek:


Cheers

kadosh
12-09-2009, 03:17 PM
The UGLE are pefectly correct in every particular to use the date of 1717 as the start of their system of speculative organized Freemasonry as we know it today. They obviously make no claims that Freemasonry was started by anyone as an organized speculative only fraternity before that date. Those claiming any different before 1717 are not writing about the same system.

Origins and Development of the Masonic Craft - An Address delivered by RW Bro. Jeremy Pemberton, President of the Board of General Purposes of the United Grand Lodge of England, at the Centenary Conference of the Grand Lodge of South Australia, held at Adelaide on 13 April 1984.

http://www.freemasonrysaust.org.au/pdf/origin_development_craft_pemberton_1984.pdf

"There is a much used Masonic expression, "time immemorial", which has become almost meaningless, but has some convenience, enabling us quickly to gloss over many gaps in our history. ....

In Masonry it was customary to state that the Craft had existed from time immemorial, meaning that we do not know when it originated, and the use of that expression "time immemorial", has enabled many Masonic writers to give full rein to their imagination when writing on our origins. .....

In the 17th Century the first evidence we have of a purely speculative initiation in England is that of Elias Ashmole at an occasional lodge held in Warrington in 1646, none of those present having anything to do with the operative craft. From that event until the formation of the premier Grand Lodge in 1717 all the evidence in England occurs in a purely speculative context. .....

The formation of the premier Grand Lodge in 1717 was followed by that of Ireland in 1725 and that of Scotland in 1736. ..... "

keystone
12-09-2009, 04:16 PM
The formation of the premier Grand Lodge in 1717 was followed by that of Ireland in 1725 and that of Scotland in 1736. ..... "and also the Grand Lodge Of All England in 1725. Slap my wrist that was naughty - sorry GS but I'm feeling a little impish this afternoon - take no notice I'm really not on the attack. :D It was, I'm told, a name change for the Old Lodge at York which had hitherto acted like a Grand Lodge without calling itself as such.

Cheers

kadosh
12-09-2009, 05:51 PM
UGLE: Here is the text of the final address (before he retired) of the MW The Pro Grand Master The Most Hon The Marquess of Northampton, DL, at the December 2008 Quarterly Communication Meeting.

************************************************** ********************************

Brethren,

As this is the last Grand Lodge at which I shall preside I would like to take the opportunity to put on record some of my thoughts about English Freemasonry. Looking back over the past 300 years it is clear that Freemasonry has adapted to fit the society of the day from which it draws its members, and to ensure its future will have to continue to do so. In fact the cause of many of its recent problems was that it lost touch with a changing society and stopped communicating with the popular world. It shows the resilience of the Craft and the strength of its ethos that in so short a time it has been able to adjust itself to a new openness without in any way compromising its basic tenets.

But as well as looking outwards to our relationship with society we have also had to look inwards at the way we do things and see if they are still relevant to the 21st Century. Becoming more open was not just about our interaction with the public – although who could have foreseen twenty years ago that many of our Provinces would now have their own stands at County Shows – it was also about being open with our families and friends and learning how to explain our masonry to non-masons in layman’s terms. There are so many good things in freemasonry that can be openly talked about, and the majority of masons now accept that the only things we want to keep private are the modes of recognition without which one can not attend our ceremonies.

When I became Pro Grand Master I said I wanted to integrate the Craft more and this I have tried to do by having better communication with London and our Provinces and Districts. My business meeting with all Craft and Royal Arch Rulers on the eve of the Annual Investiture has made it possible to discuss common issues and agree a way forward. It is one thing to have a vision but not much use without also having a strategy for its implementation. There is now a much closer integration between the High Rulers, the Board and the Grand Secretary when it comes to making decisions. This has been made easier by having a smaller Board, comprising mostly brethren who have had considerable business experience, and a Grand Secretary who can now concentrate on our own brethren, leaving responsibility for our relationships with other Grand Lodges to the newly appointed Grand Chancellor.

On the business side Grand Lodge is now on a sound financial footing and no longer has to rely on investment income to cover its annual expenditure. This magnificent building deserves to be maintained to a very high standard. I am delighted that all our masonic charities felt able to come together within it. This has been an important change in their thinking and they can now work together and share resources to improve their efficiency, and thereby the quality of care we provide for masons and their dependents who need our assistance.

Together with integration we have tried to become more transparent in the way we do things. I lost count of the number of times I heard brethren in the Provinces question what London does with all their money. This was one of the reasons why I was keen to start the Rulers Forum, and give many more brethren, through a group system, access to those who make the decisions. It provides a forum in which questions can be asked and new ideas put forward. The more transparent we are the less we will be criticized either by the general public or by our own members.

I have also held various conferences with all our Provincial and District Grand Masters to agree a common vision for implementation by them in a way that best suits their members.

So as well as integration I believe firmly in decentralisation. One size does not fit all and each Province and District is unique. However, to decentralise takes trust and much effort has gone into building better relations between the Centre and those who have the responsibility of managing our brethren at a local level. The future success of the Craft depends as much on the quality of its leaders as it does on the quality of its candidates.

We need Metropolitan, Provincial and District Grand Lodges to manage our lodges and we need the equivalent Grand Masters to inspire their brethren to practise out of the lodge what they have been taught in it. They must also see that the rules laid down in the Book of Constitutions and the edicts of Grand Lodge are adhered to. But it is in the individual lodges that the real work is undertaken and the precedence of the Master and the sovereignty of the lodge are paramount. I have tried to impress on brethren that they are responsible for the success or otherwise of their lodges, and to give them the freedom to explore ways of making their ritual more impressive for the candidate and more enjoyable for their visitors. Many bad habits have crept into our ceremonies over time which have nothing to do with the rituals and which only serve to increase the length of our meetings. We are trying to accommodate young men with pressures of time and money, family and business. We should consider anything which makes it easier for them to enjoy their masonry as long as it is within our rules. We should not be afraid to experiment with new ideas.

This leads me on to the importance of education. I still find it difficult to believe that when I joined freemasonry over thirty years ago there were many brethren who were unable to answer even simple questions about the meanings behind the symbols in our rituals. To talk about education was frowned upon and yet intelligent young men were being asked to join an organisation which could hardly explain itself because it had never had to do so, let alone in an inspiring and meaningful way. I have been involved in and supported several educational initiatives to study different aspects of freemasonry including the Library and Museum Charitable Trust, the Centre for Masonic studies at the University of Sheffield, Canonbury Masonic Research Centre and the Cornerstone Society. There are also many research lodges that do excellent work. The latest Grand Lodge initiative has been the Orator scheme which I hope will encourage masons to look deeper into the meaning of the rituals on their personal journey of self discovery. I chaired a successful meeting with all our Orators recently and feel confident that the objectives of the scheme will be met. I hope that soon we will have a similar scheme for the Royal Arch.

This is all part of our vision for recruitment and retention. Personally I see recruitment as a public relations and marketing exercise and the best public relations we can ever have is the individual mason talking to his friends enthusiastically about his masonry. The best marketing will, I hope, soon be our Grand Lodge website. This is the single most important public face of English Freemasonry. It is the easiest way for men to find us, and it is where we should be laying out our stall to attract quality candidates. It is then up to lodges to ensure their interview process sifts out unsuitable men. A lot of effort has been going on behind the scenes to develop a first class website, aimed at men in the 35-50 years old age range. This will include some video element and is due to go live in March. I am very excited by its potential.

For retention we have the mentoring scheme. Every candidate should be given a mentor to help him understand what we do and why, and introduce him to the other members of the lodge. Nothing puts a candidate off more than a holier than thou approach from more experienced brethren who should know better. Arrogance has no place in an organisation which teaches brotherly love as its first Grand Principle. A candidate should be encouraged to ask questions and if we do not know the answers we should point him in the right direction to find out.

I would like to say a few words about charity. I have always thought that our second Grand Principle, Relief, is as much about the work of the Almoner as it is about that of the Charity Steward. Of course we must give generously to support not only our Masonic charities but also those less fortunate than ourselves. But relief is about having compassionate feelings towards our fellow beings. I interpret our ritual to mean that if the candidate comes knocking on our door with an open mind - a perfect freedom of inclination - then the system of freemasonry will open his heart and make him a wiser and more compassionate person. Charity is therefore an effect of our masonry, not a cause. The very large sums our members gave spontaneously for the tsunami appeal was a good example. I was therefore pleased that in our recent troubles we were never tempted to deflect criticism by claiming we were primarily a charitable organization. Other overseas Grand Lodges have gone down that route with unfortunate consequences.

The many millions raised for our Masonic charities from Provincial festivals never fails to make me proud to belong to such a generous organization, and the money we give to the Grand Charity for non Masonic giving reflects well on the Craft. There are also the large sums given to non masonic causes by individual lodges. When I joined freemasonry it was an unwritten rule that we did not talk openly about our charitable giving. I hope that has now changed. There is no doubt that the best, and probably only, publicity we can expect is from the local press and we should therefore concentrate our efforts on local causes. There can be few better ways of promoting the good things that freemasonry stands for than by being seen to be doing something for our local communities and that is as much about practical help as it is about financial assistance.

As we approach our tercentenary we can be rightly proud of what has been achieved by English freemasonry since its inception. I know of no other organisation which teaches such noble virtues to its members. For me the two qualities which stand out more than any others are tolerance and trust. Tolerance reflects the universality of the Craft and trust enables its members to unite in peace, love and harmony.

As the mother Grand Lodge of the world we have a responsibility to share our experience with those younger Grand Lodges who ask for advice and support. We are the arbiters of regularity and our recent conference on that subject left overseas Grand Lodges in no doubt where we stand on the matter. We take the view that it is the individual mason, imbued with the principles of the Order, who makes a difference in society and not freemasonry itself. In other words freemasonry is just the system which makes men better able to play a responsible role for the good of society. I wholeheartedly endorse that position but enjoy the thought that if you could put those individuals together outside of freemasonry you would have a collective wisdom and generosity of spirit which might be of great benefit to society.

Over the past twenty five years we have had to go from being reactive to proactive as a consequence of the attacks against us. I believe we have been successful in repositioning ourselves back into society and the temptation is now to ease off and slide back into our old ways. I hope that will not happen. We are fortunate that there have been some landmark cases in the European Courts which have been in our favour but we can not afford to be complacent. We must always be able to defend ourselves with rational argument. The efforts made by so many brethren should now be channelled into attracting and retaining good men and improving the quality of our masonry. This will ensure our future and preserve one of the last great initiation societies in existence today. I am sure my successor will have many ideas of his own. I wish him well and he will continue to have my full support.

Brethren I end by thanking my wife, Pamela, for her love and support without which my job would have been much harder and my enjoyment of it much less.

She has always taken a keen interest in the positive psychological changes masonry brings about in men. I thank the Grand Master for appointing me as his Pro and giving me the opportunity of serving the Craft and the Royal Arch in such challenging and exciting times. His experience of all things Masonic stretching back over forty years has been invaluable and we are truly fortunate to have him as our head.

I thank my fellow Rulers past and present who have worked so hard to bring about change, and finally I thank all those brethren who have supported me during the last fourteen years as a High Ruler. We have worked together to ensure that the Craft we all love and enjoy, and its Grand Principles of Brotherly Love, Relief and Truth, will continue to inspire men for many generations to come.

nihil
12-09-2009, 06:11 PM
The Masons are not descended from the Knights Templar. It is claimed, that the first time this myth was ever mentioned was in 1737 in France when a Scotsman (Chevalier Michael Ramsay) was supposed to have presented a lecture which made the claim. The only ones claiming such fanciful connections today are naïve Masons, in fact most Masons today are not educated people (there is only one or two). Truth is Ramsay never presented this lecture (it was a another author and was written in Oratio) and as can be read by anyone who does the effort to do so there is NO reference in there to the Templars, only to Knightly participants on the crusades. In spite of this a fantasy-book titled The Temple And The Lodge, written around twenty years ago refashioned a myth created by Baron von Hundt in 18th century Germany, plus interprets the graves of returning Scottish Knights from the crusades falsely as those of the Knights Templar. Ten years later an even more fictional work - The Hiram Key - appeared followed by Dan Brown's The Solomon Key. Neither do the Masons have any connections to Egypt, The Temple of Solomon, or the rebuilding of London after the great fire or Washington D.C. build according to the historians and accounts of its time. But because the truth is often so much buried under all the fiction that there are indeed, many, secrets to be revealed.

keystone
12-09-2009, 06:16 PM
The Masons are not descended from the Knights Templar. It is claimed, that the first time this myth was ever mentioned was in 1737 in France when a Scotsman (Chevalier Michael Ramsay) was supposed to have presented a lecture which made the claim. The only ones claiming such fanciful connections today are naïve Masons, in fact most Masons today are not educated people (there is only one or two). Truth is Ramsay never presented this lecture (it was a another author and was written in Oratio) and as can be read by anyone who does the effort to do so there is NO reference in there to the Templars, only to Knightly participants on the crusades. In spite of this a fantasy-book titled The Temple And The Lodge, written around twenty years ago refashioned a myth created by Baron von Hundt in 18th century Germany, plus interprets the graves of returning Scottish Knights from the crusades falsely as those of the Knights Templar. Ten years later an even more fictional work - The Hiram Key - appeared followed by Dan Brown's The Solomon Key. Neither do the Masons have any connections to Egypt, The Temple of Solomon, or the rebuilding of London after the great fire or Washington D.C. build according to the historians and accounts of its time. But because the truth is often so much buried under all the fiction that there are indeed, many, secrets to be revealed.

So your well researched theory is?

Cheers

kadosh
12-09-2009, 06:34 PM
... The only ones claiming such fanciful connections today are naïve Masons, in fact most Masons today are not educated people (there is only one or two).
What utter nonsense you post. This is another propoganda myth that can be busted. Many thousands of Freemasons today are well educated people.

http://www.quatuorcoronati.com/

http://www.scottishrite.org/what/educ/srrs.html

http://www.themasonicsociety.com/

http://www.nymasons.org/cms/Charter

nihil
12-09-2009, 06:52 PM
My theory is that masonry as 'scret society' is an oxymoron... Every kind of conspiracy practices has been attached to the masonic institution (?) so, either lodges are a little too opened to external influences, or the lodges are well aware of these manipulation...

Everyone has got its price, No?!

I'm not related to Dan Brown :o

keystone
12-09-2009, 07:22 PM
I like that theory. :)

Cheers

kadosh
12-09-2009, 11:42 PM
York Mysteries Revealed - Neville Cryer Probes the Question of the First Grand Lodge http://www.freemasonrytoday.com/37/p09.php

"As the area of the premier Grand Lodge was initially in London and Westminster, the control of masons north of the River Trent was claimed to be in the hands of York. Interestingly the Antients Grand Lodge always recognised this until the York body began to fail. ..... "

boots
13-09-2009, 12:19 AM
In 1738 Pope Clement XII issued a Papal Bull condemning and excommunicating all Freemasons, whom he pronounced 'enemies of the Roman Church'....
In its text the pope declares that Masonic thought rests on a heresy...- the denial of Jesus's divinity. And he further asserts that the guiding spirits, the 'masterminds', behind Freemasonry are the same as those who provoked the Lutheran Reformation." - Baigent, Leigh & Lincoln, The Holy Blood and the Holy Grail

"In 1740, the Grand Master of the Order of Malta caused the Bull of Pope Clement XII. to be published in that island, and forbade the meetings of the Freemasons. On this occasion several Knights and many citizens left the island; and in 1741, the Inquisition persecuted the Freemasons at Malta. The Grand Master proscribed their assemblies under severe penalties, and six Knights were banished from the island in perpetuity for having assisted at a meeting." - Commander Gourdin,

"Citizens of Northwestern New York acted swiftly in 1826 when they heard the news that William Morgan had disappeared. Morgan, described by an historian of politics as "a somewhat down at heel citizen of Batavia," was a disgruntled Mason who had written a book alleged to be an expose' of Masonic secrets. Rumors contended that the Masons had murdered Morgan. The Order, for its part, maintained a stolid and uncooperative silence, and so local political organizations campaigned to keep support from office- seeking Masons. One new organization, the Anti-Masonry Party, attracted those in the populace who distrusted the Masons and other secret societies. It grew almost overnight, and the party's power base soon stretched from western New York to Pennsylvania, Ohio, New Jersey, Massachusetts, and Vermont.

"In the rush of growth of the anti-Masonic movement, the initiating impetus for it was submerged, and neither the fate of Morgan nor the culpability of the Masonic Order was ascertained. Instead, the new and liberal Anti-Masonry Party became the voice of the poorer citizen against the well-to-do (and most Masons were regarded as rich), the spokesman for the orthodox against Unitarianism and other liberal sects, a supporter of temperance and anti-slavery activities, and a cheerleader for some features of Jacksonian Democracy against the autocratic Federalists. It opposed not only secret societies and government-in-secret, but also imprisonment for debt and drafts for state militia service."But as the party gathered strength it also began to move from the 'left' to the 'right', supporting tariffs on imported goods to prevent the collapse of local industries, better canals for more efficient transport, and banks free from regulatory taxes. As such, it was vainly used by politicians for their own ends, chiefly anti-Jacksonian: Thurlow Weed and William H. Seward tried unsuccessfully through the Anti-Masonry Party to overthrow Martin van Buren's Albany Regency (informal group of Democratic leaders in New York), and politician Thad Stevens in Pennsylvania tried to use it to increase his power. Soon the new party was voting with the National Republican Party against the Jacksonians; by 1834 it had moved entirely to the 'right', for it helped found the reactionary Whig Party, which absorbed the Anti-Masonry Party in 1836." - Brian Francis Redman ("The Big C")

"By the 1880s eight Popes had already condemned Freemasonry when Freemasons urged that these condemnations had been based on erroneous information and were excessively severe. This led Pope Leo XIII to issue his famous encyclical Humanum Genus in 1884. Leo XIII classed Freemasonry as a grouping of secret societies in the 'kingdom of Satan' and, like the Greek Orthodox Church half a century later, stated that it wished 'to bring back after eighteen centuries the manners and customs of the pagans.'"
- Stephen Knight, The Brotherhood

"There was nothing nefarious or subversive on the pope's part, Leo XIII was a troubled man. He felt deeply the great losses in church power, privilege, and wealth brought on by the democratic revolutions and developed such profound mistrust that he kept all of the gold of the Vatican in a box under his own bed. He truly believed democracy was evil, part of the 'kingdom of Satan', and that the Catholic church had a right and duty to oversee every secular government." - John J. Robinson, Born in Blood

"The principles of social science follow. Here naturalists teach that men have all the same rights, and are perfectly equal in condition; that every man is naturally independent; that no one has a right to command other; that it is tyranny to keep men subject to any other authority than that which emanates from themselves."
- Pope Leo XIII, "Humanum Genus"

VATICAN CITY (1985) "The Vatican, clarifying its position on membership in Masonic lodges, said yesterday that Catholics who join such organizations commit 'grave sin'. The new reminder, in the Vatican newspaper L'Osservatore Romano, appeared to be aimed mainly at Catholics in the United States, where some have interpreted recent church statements as relaxing the 247-year-old ban on Masonic membership imposed by Pope Clement XII. A new code of Canon Law outlined on Nov. 25, 1983, omitted membership in the Masons in the list of offenses that incur automatic excommunication." - (UPI)


http://www.mystae.com/restricted/streams/masons/mpolitics.html#Templarism

Masons have no true god.

.

kadosh
13-09-2009, 12:59 AM
and also the Grand Lodge Of All England in 1725. Slap my wrist that was naughty - sorry GS but I'm feeling a little impish this afternoon - take no notice I'm really not on the attack. :D It was, I'm told, a name change for the Old Lodge at York which had hitherto acted like a Grand Lodge without calling itself as such. Cheers
ENGLISH FREEMASONRY AT YORK - The following is a full account of the revival, which is given by Hughan from the actual records.

"The Antient and independent Constitution of Free and Accepted Masons Belonging to the City of York, was this Seventeenth day of March, in the year of our Lord 1761, Revived by six of the surviving members of the Fraternity by the Grand Lodge being opened, and held at the House of Mr Henry Howard, in Lendall, in the said City, by them and others hereinafter named. When and where it was further agreed on, that it should be continued and held there only the Second and Last Monday in every mouth. .... " http://www.rgle.org.uk/RGLE_Mother_Grand_Lodge_York.htm

grandsecretary
13-09-2009, 11:55 AM
ENGLISH FREEMASONRY AT YORK - The following is a full account of the revival, which is given by Hughan from the actual records.

"The Antient and independent Constitution of Free and Accepted Masons Belonging to the City of York, was this Seventeenth day of March, in the year of our Lord 1761, Revived by six of the surviving members of the Fraternity by the Grand Lodge being opened, and held at the House of Mr Henry Howard, in Lendall, in the said City, by them and others hereinafter named. When and where it was further agreed on, that it should be continued and held there only the Second and Last Monday in every mouth. .... " http://www.rgle.org.uk/RGLE_Mother_Grand_Lodge_York.htm

Quite right, the regular meetings of the Grand Lodge at York were revived in 1761. The Constitutions of Free Masonrie Belonging to the City of York remained extant at all times.

The Grand Lodge was first oppressed during a period of a series of national insurrections, known as The Jacobite Rebellions, caused by the succession of the House of Hanover to the British throne.

"Early in the 18th century, when English Masonry puts on its modern attire [sic The Grand Lodge of London] its secret organization was continued under a Grand Lodge [sic The Grand Lodge at York], and this body was established during the same period which, after the death of Louis XIV, became the signal for the Jacobite risings that were suppressed in 1716. Among those who took up arms for the Pretender were many prominent Freemasons. Some were executed, and others found refuge on the Continent. Among the latter was the Earl of Winton. afterwards Master of the famous "Roman Lodge" (founded by Scottish Masons in Rome) at the time of its suppression in 1737; and if we may believe French historians, it was by another of these exiles, Charles Ratcliffe, who, after his elder brother was beheaded, assumed the title of Earl of Derwentwater, that the first Lodge in France was founded at Paris in 1725 [sic 1720]. (SOURCE: The Concise History of Freemasonry by Robert Freke Gould)

Freemasons, loyal to the Stuart throne were driven underground, and were unable to surface again until 1761, 15 years after the Battle of Culloden. It was during this period that they continued to meet in Paris, Vienna, and Rome founding La Grand Loge in Paris in 1720 (whose inheritor is now known as La Grande Loge de France).

The earliest introduction of Freemasonry into France is to be traced to the year 1718. (SOURCE) Le Sceau Rompu, ou la Loge ouverte aux profanes

"The Society and Fraternity of Freemasons having been established in Paris (1720) by Charles Ratcliffe (Earl of Derwentwater), he together with Chevalier Maskelyne and M. d'Henquelty inaugurates the first French Masonic Lodge in Paris in the rue Boucheries-St Germain."

"Lord Derwentwater, the Chevalier Maskelyne. M. d'Henquelty, and some other Englishmen, established a lodge at the house of Hure, the keeper of an ordinary in the Rue des Boucheries. This Lodge acquired a great reputation, and attracted five or six hundred brethren to Masonry in the space of ten years." (SOURCE: Acta Latomorum ou Chronologie de l'Histoire de la Franche-Maçonnerie Française et Étrangére, p.21, by Claude Antoine Thory, Paris 1784)

"... we are compelled to admit the naked fact, that there was an English lodge in Paris in 1725. There is no evidence that this lodge was at that date or very soon afterwards constituted by the Grand Lodge at London." (SOURCE: History of Freemasonry by Albert Gallatin Mackey, Chapter XXXVIII)

"... most impartial historians assert that from 1720 to 1725 Freemasonry was clandestinely introduced into France by some English Masons." (SOURCE: Report made to the Grand Orient of France, contained in the Journal, La Globe, tome I., p.324, 1838)

Tha fact of the matter is that to continue to meet in England would have resulted in seizure of properties and titles, imprisonment and execution, which is exactly what happened to first Earl of Derwentwater, beheaded on Tyburn Hill.

Animosity between the protestant Crown, the leaders and Grand Masters of the Moderns newcomers to Masonry, and the originals, The Grand Lodge at York, continued unabated until it was again driven underground in 1810. This time, the Crown used Parliamentary legislation to curb its activities.

Between 1794 and 1801, The Grand Lodge of All England and its members were subjected to a catalogue of repressive legislation beginning with the suspension of the Habeas Corpus Act (1794) and culminating in the Combination Acts of 1799 and 1800. This legislation includes the: Treasonable Practices Act (1795); Seditious Meetings Act (1795); Unlawful Oaths Act (1797); Newspaper Publications Act (1797); Corresponding Societies Act (1799); Unlawful Societies Act (1799).

On this occasion it was declared "a criminal conspiracy" and its lodges suspended, encouraged and supported by the Crown in Parliament itself by what Pike called the "newcomers to Masonry".

'...nothing in this act contained shall extend, or be construed to extend, to prevent the meetings of the Lodge or society of persons which is now held at Free Masons Hall in Great Queen Street in the County of Middlesex, and usually denominated The Grand Lodge of Freemasons of England, or of the Lodge or society of persons usually denominated The Grand Lodge of Masons of England, according to the Old Institution, or of the Lodge or society of persons which is now held at Edinburgh, and usually denominated The Grand Lodge of Free Masons of Scotland, or the meetings of any subordinate lodge or society of persons usually calling themselves Free Masons, the holding whereof shall be sanctioned or approved by any one of the above mentioned lodges or societies...' (SOURCE: Unlawful Societies Act, 1799)

"The amendment (to the Unlawful Societies Act) envisaged a system whereby the Grand Secretaries would each year deposit with the clerks of the peace a certificate containing details of the time and place of meeting of all approved lodges in the county, together with a declaration that the lodges were approved by the Grand Master. All lodges were to keep a book in which each member was to declare, on joining, 'that he is well affected to the constitution and government of this realm, by King, Lords, and Commons, as by law established'. This book was to be kept open for inspection by local magistrates. The Grand Lodges were thus to be made responsible for policing freemasonry; lodges whose names did not appear on the return made by the Grand Secretaries would be criminal conspiracies." (SOURCE: The Unlawful Societies Act 1799 by The Centre for Research into Freemasonry)

"I have pledged myself to His Majesty's ministers that should any set of men attempt to meet as a lodge without sanction, the Grand Master, or Acting Grand Master (whomsoever he might be), would apprise parliament." (SOURCE: statement by Lord Moira, Pro Grand Master, Grand Lodge of London, Acting Grand Master, Grand Lodge of Scotland)

The last of these acts was not repealed until after the end of the Second World War.

So let us be very clear. Both revivals (1761 and 2005) were NOT caused because the Free Masons of England decided to pop off for a glass of champagne and a platter of canapes, or because it simply faded away due to disuity.

Attempted murder should not be mistaken for near death experiences due to natural causes.

Furthermore, or members carried on meeting continuosly in France, Austria and Italy until it was safe to return to England again to revive the fortunes of The Grand Lodge of All England at York.

grandsecretary
13-09-2009, 12:02 PM
York Mysteries Revealed - Neville Cryer Probes the Question of the First Grand Lodge http://www.freemasonrytoday.com/37/p09.php

"As the area of the premier Grand Lodge was initially in London and Westminster, the control of masons north of the River Trent was claimed to be in the hands of York. Interestingly the Antients Grand Lodge always recognised this until the York body began to fail. ..... "

See: The Grand Lodge South of the River Trent 1779, http://www.grandlodgeofallengland.org/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=22&Itemid=30 conveniently forgotten in the above statement of propoganda by Neville Barker Cryer, a UGLE lecturer.

"Preston is decidedly more full and clear than Anderson, although both wrote in the interests of the London Grand Lodge, yet not with the same bias of feeling. Anderson was one of the originators of the London Grand Lodge, and as a man of strong prejudices he was biased in all his inditings, evidences of which are seen throughout his two publications on every possible occasion, in the omission of historical facts, or giving the contrary construction to, and diverting attention in cases reflecting unfavourably upon the New Grand Lodge. The Books of Anderson, however, are almost universally accepted by the Masonic fraternity as containing a true history of Freemasonry, at least from the time our review commences, and the Ancient Charges, especially those contained in the 1723 edition, are as generally adopted as the fundamental law and basis of Masonic principles. But notwithstanding Anderson's Books of Constitutions were published by order of the London Grand Lodge, with its approval and sanction, yet no more untrustworthy, unreliable books were ever printed under the direction of any organised association. We affirm that Anderson is not to be credited. The Books of Constitutions were written purposely to deceive, to mislead and misrepresent facts as they existed; and if his reports of Grand Lodge Proceedings are true copies of Grand Lodge Records, then the records were corrupted with the design to mislead the reader." (SOURCE: Freemasonry in England from 1567 to 1813, Ancient York and London Grand Lodges , pages 15 and 16, by Leon Hyneman, 1877)

Nothing changes and it will not do so until kadosh quotes one single non-UGLE source which does not use such tactics.

On this occassion: omission of historical fact; untrustworthy; and unreliable (UGLE) source.

grandsecretary
13-09-2009, 12:11 PM
So you say. It depends what that claim is though and how it is being represented. I see classic politicians trickery going on all over the place.

I don't see how you can stop the TBH.

Really? I can't see how it MUST be expected to do anything.

Goody. Actually i'm really looking forward to it. Should be an interesting debate. But please don't wait another 7 years. If we are going to have a drama lets have the "full glare of publicity" NOW huh? I too really do want to hear their response. C'mon go for it - don't just rely on your website and the DI forum as your platform.

Cheers

Oh we don't want to stop them. Heaven forbid. They will claim 300 years of existence since the meeting at The Goose and Gridiron, their sole claim to Masonic legitimacy. Can't wait. We have already laid the foundations, and believe me we are in for an interesting public debate leading up to 2017, the perfect situation for the great exposure (if it doesn't happen in the meantime).

You see, the UGLE is in serious difficulties here. You can gauge that by the subtle, but significant changes that they have already made to the wording that they are employing on their new website.

grandsecretary
13-09-2009, 12:17 PM
Masons have no true god.

.

Boots, may we take it that you claim the same infallibility on this issue as does the Pope in Rome himself?

grandsecretary
13-09-2009, 12:18 PM
York Mysteries Revealed - Neville Cryer Probes the Question of the First Grand Lodge http://www.freemasonrytoday.com/37/p09.php

"As the area of the premier Grand Lodge was initially in London and Westminster, the control of masons north of the River Trent was claimed to be in the hands of York. Interestingly the Antients Grand Lodge always recognised this until the York body began to fail. ..... "

Propoganda from unreliable UGLE sources.

grandsecretary
13-09-2009, 12:23 PM
The UGLE are pefectly correct in every particular to use the date of 1717 as the start of their system of speculative organized Freemasonry as we know it today. They obviously make no claims that Freemasonry was started by anyone as an organized speculative only fraternity before that date. Those claiming any different before 1717 are not writing about the same system.

Origins and Development of the Masonic Craft - An Address delivered by RW Bro. Jeremy Pemberton, President of the Board of General Purposes of the United Grand Lodge of England, at the Centenary Conference of the Grand Lodge of South Australia, held at Adelaide on 13 April 1984.

http://www.freemasonrysaust.org.au/pdf/origin_development_craft_pemberton_1984.pdf

"There is a much used Masonic expression, "time immemorial", which has become almost meaningless, but has some convenience, enabling us quickly to gloss over many gaps in our history. ....

In Masonry it was customary to state that the Craft had existed from time immemorial, meaning that we do not know when it originated, and the use of that expression "time immemorial", has enabled many Masonic writers to give full rein to their imagination when writing on our origins. .....

In the 17th Century the first evidence we have of a purely speculative initiation in England is that of Elias Ashmole at an occasional lodge held in Warrington in 1646, none of those present having anything to do with the operative craft. From that event until the formation of the premier Grand Lodge in 1717 all the evidence in England occurs in a purely speculative context. .....

The formation of the premier Grand Lodge in 1717 was followed by that of Ireland in 1725 and that of Scotland in 1736. ..... "

And this was Jeremy's conclusion in that very address in Adelaide:

"... the first Annual Assembly of the four London Lodges that came together on 24th June 1717 did not constitute in any sense a regulatory body." (SOURCE: Jeremy Pemberton, President of the Board of General Purposes of the United Grand Lodge of England in his address to the Centenary Conference of the Grand Lodge of Adelaide, 13 April 1984)

We very much welcome this address, with its references to Elias Ashmole, who died a full 25 years before the alleged meeting at the Goose and Gridiron. And his address also proves that this meeting prompted a self-started, irregular, clandestine, profane organisation.

You will see in the run up to 2017. This will be the subject of, at least, one major documentary programme, followed by a live debate on national television.

boots
13-09-2009, 12:26 PM
Boots, may we take it that you claim the same infallibility on this issue as does the Pope in Rome himself?


Guess so GS.

Who is your God GS, if not the Christian one?

.

marpat
13-09-2009, 12:31 PM
Guess so GS.

Who is your God GS, if not the Christian one?

.

Does christ actually mention what god he worshipped? on the cross he calls out to Eli but that could be a man.

stewart edwards
13-09-2009, 12:32 PM
Among those who took up arms for the Pretender were many prominent Freemasons. Some were executed, and others found refuge on the Continent. (SOURCE: The Concise History of Freemasonry by Robert Freke Gould) Pretender?:eek:


Freemasons, loyal to the Stuart throne were driven underground, and were unable to surface again until 1761, 15 years after the Battle of Culloden. It was during this period that they continued to meet in Paris, Vienna, and Rome founding La Grand Loge in Paris in 1720 (whose inheritor is now known as La Grande Loge de France).

Tha fact of the matter is that to continue to meet in England would have resulted in seizure of properties and titles, imprisonment and execution, which is exactly what happened to first Earl of Derwentwater, beheaded on Tyburn Hill.

Animosity between the protestant Crown, the leaders and Grand Masters of the Moderns newcomers to Masonry, and the originals, The Grand Lodge at York, continued unabated until it was again driven underground in 1810. This time, the Crown used Parliamentary legislation to curb its activities.
It is interesting that in England today, you have one of the most tolernt societies in the world, yet even relatively recently it could not tolerate the Stewarts (remember Stuart is the French spelling adopted after the move to France).

Peter the question is, who is the true present day heir to the Stewart crown? A Belgian (I forget his name), supported by Laurence Gardner and I understand an Italian have laid claim to the throne, but I was told that the Italian declined it (I cant substantiate this as it was just gossip). What ever happened to the Belgian bloke by the way he seems to have gone quiet. His book was an interesting read though.

Peter straight question, if the heir to the Stewarts was to knock on your door would you let him in?

grandsecretary
13-09-2009, 12:33 PM
Guess so GS.

Who is your God GS, if not the Christian one?

.

My God is very firmly the Christian God.

boots
13-09-2009, 12:39 PM
My God is very firmly the Christian God.


How can that be? When the pope who is a representative of god on earth excommunicate any Freemason. If you believe in the Bible which is the "word" of god,then you would be living contrary to gods law's.

.

marpat
13-09-2009, 12:43 PM
How can that be? When the pope who is a representative of god on earth excommunicate any Freemason. If you believe in the Bible which is the "word" of god,then you would be living contrary to gods law's.

.

The pope does not represent every christian on earth, just a particular brand, neither does the bible mention popes and them being infalliable. So where does the absoulte authority of the pope derive? from those who chose him as their leader, not god.

grandsecretary
13-09-2009, 12:43 PM
Pretender?:eek:


It is interesting that in England today, you have one of the most tolernt societies in the world, yet even relatively recently it could not tolerate the Stewarts (remember Stuart is the French spelling adopted after the move to France).

Peter the question is, who is the true present day heir to the Stewart crown? A Belgian (I forget his name), supported by Laurence Gardner and I understand an Italian have laid claim to the throne, but I was told that the Italian declined it (I cant substantiate this as it was just gossip). What ever happened to the Belgian bloke by the way he seems to have gone quiet. His book was an interesting read though.

Peter straight question, if the heir to the Stewarts was to knock on your door would you let him in?

That's not a straight question at all Stewart. What do you mean by "knock on your (my)door"? Normally anyone who knocks on my door is welcomed with a cup of tea and a piece of cake.

If you are asking me to state my personal political view on the legitimacy of the current English Crown, I would say this.

If a Stewart (Stuart) claimant could prove his bona fides to my satisfaction, so that he could, and would successfully pursue a case in the courts, then he may rely upon my support.

boots
13-09-2009, 12:43 PM
Does christ actually mention what god he worshipped? on the cross he calls out to Eli but that could be a man.

Did not Jesus cry out, "oh father why have you forsaken me". He didn't mean Joseph. How about you go to the religious forum and debate that with Miracles.

.

grandsecretary
13-09-2009, 12:46 PM
The pope does not represent every christian on earth, just a particular brand, neither does the bible mention popes and them being infalliable. So where does the absoulte authority of the pope derive? from those who chose him as their leader, not god.

First Vatican Council 1870.

marpat
13-09-2009, 12:46 PM
Did not Jesus cry out, "oh father why have you forsaken me". He didn't mean Joseph. How about you go to the religious forum and debate that with Miracles.

.

But what is the name of his father!!!!!!!!!!!! it could have been baal for all you know. This is relevant because you speak of the christian god but I dont think christ actually mentions and names for god. He calls out to Eli while dying but is that it?

stewart edwards
13-09-2009, 12:58 PM
If you are asking me to state my personal political view on the legitimacy of the current English Crown, I would say this.

If a Stewart (Stuart) claimant could prove his bona fides to my satisfaction, so that he could, and would successfully pursue a case in the courts, then he may rely upon my support.I cant imagine that any such person would be that bothered with pursuing a court case. While I appreciate that there is strong nationist movement back home, we are talking about the Crown of Britain after all, not just that of Scotland. And it has to be said that the current incumbments are doing a rather good job. I for one am happy to seek advice from Her Majesty. Not that she gives it to me you understand, but I remain happy to seek it.

There is much that the Stewarts can do for this country and indeed the world, without bothering about the politics of kingship. Quietly without fuss. I really dont understand why some peole want to be King so badly, for there is a lot of negatives that go with it - including becoming a virtual prisoner to protocol, finding it more difficult to go to the shops or for a walk in the park, dealing with backstabbers, assassins, kidnappers, and if a recent episode (as shown on telly so could be old) of Spooks (fictional series about mi5 British secret service filmed at UGLE HQ) is to be believed, mi5 considering the assination of Diana). I am sure that any Stewart would be happy do what he does and letting others play politics. Which is why I am suprised by this Belgian blokes claim. Is he still claiming it?

grandsecretary
13-09-2009, 01:18 PM
I cant imagine that any such person would be that bothered with pursuing a court case. While I appreciate that there is strong nationist movement back home, we are talking about the Crown of Britain after all, not just that of Scotland. And it has to be said that the current incumbments are doing a rather good job. I for one am happy to seek advice from Her Majesty. Not that she gives it to me you understand, but I remain happy to seek it.

There is much that the Stewarts can do for this country and indeed the world, without bothering about the politics of kingship. Quietly without fuss. I really dont understand why some peole want to be King so badly, for there is a lot of negatives that go with it - including becoming a virtual prisoner to protocol, finding it more difficult to go to the shops or for a walk in the park, dealing with backstabbers, assassins, kidnappers, and if a recent episode (as shown on telly so could be old) of Spooks (fictional series about mi5 British secret service filmed at UGLE HQ) is to be believed, mi5 considering the assination of Diana). I am sure that any Stewart would be happy do what he does and letting others play politics. Which is why I am suprised by this Belgian blokes claim. Is he still claiming it?

I don't know Stewart.

stewart edwards
13-09-2009, 01:25 PM
wiki states that he has recently written a book on the Islamic origins of Freemasonry, which may be worth a gander out of curiosity.