Argument with a mason!!

[nicholaq]

Hi guys, need a bit of help here. Had a disscusion today with my friends partner who happens to be a member of a local masonic lodge.
He told me there where no higher levels other than the first three, there was no swine flu conspiracy, the vaccine was safe, no illuminati, no agenda for a global government. I disagreed and argued my point on all of these subjects.
He has never heard of David Icke!!
By the end of this argument I was in a right twist, but felt like I had given my best with regards to what I know so far.
What is the best way of responding to somebody like this??? without wanting to lose your rag!!

Thanks guys, love you all. xoxoxo;)

[zero1]

Hi guys, need a bit of help here.

Here to help.

Had a disscusion today with my friends partner who happens to be a member of a local masonic lodge.

That's nice.

He told me there where no higher levels other than the first three, there was no swine flu conspiracy, the vaccine was safe, no illuminati, no agenda for a global government.

No...really..?

I disagreed and argued my point on all of these subjects.

As you do. When you've no good common sense, that is...

He has never heard of David Icke!!

You mean...he has a life?!

By the end of this argument I was in a right twist, but felt like I had given my best with regards to what I know so far.

Good on you, go you. Though more than likely he'll think your a tinhat crank and never speak to you civilly again.

What is the best way of responding to somebody like this??? Without wanting to lose your rag!!

Ask him does he ride goats..

Thanks guys, love you all. xoxoxo;)

Love, Light & Ilumination to you too. Don't try to convince a low-level Mason of the conspiracy again, especially where there's a risk of embarrassing your family.

:)

[mike martin]

Ask him does he ride goats..

This just made me laugh.

[kweli]

Hi guys, need a bit of help here. Had a disscusion today with my friends partner who happens to be a member of a local masonic lodge.
He told me there where no higher levels other than the first three, there was no swine flu conspiracy, the vaccine was safe, no illuminati, no agenda for a global government. I disagreed and argued my point on all of these subjects.
He has never heard of David Icke!!
By the end of this argument I was in a right twist, but felt like I had given my best with regards to what I know so far.
What is the best way of responding to somebody like this??? without wanting to lose your rag!!

Thanks guys, love you all. xoxoxo;)

Hi nicolaq,

Your friends fella is telling the truth about the first bit. From the little I know, the third degree (Master Mason) is the highest degree in the moderns form of masonry. The rest is just his opinion, he's just like any other person out there that doesn't believe in conspiracies. Why waste energy trying to convince him? Sorry I couldn't be of more help, just my thoughts. :)

[mike martin]

Hi guys, need a bit of help here.
What is the best way of responding to somebody like this??? without wanting to lose your rag!!

From a Mason, the best way would be to leave the poor bloke alone.

Cos unless he's like us masochistic Masons who actually come to this Forum he truly will not have a feckin clue what you're yammering on about.

Of course there's a clue there.

Mike

[stewart edwards]

From a Mason, the best way would be to leave the poor bloke alone.

Cos unless he's like us masochistic Masons who actually come to this Forum he truly will not have a feckin clue what you're yammering on about.

Of course there's a clue there.

MikeMike you made me laugh:) belly laugh, and I have a big belly.:eek:

[nicholaq]

Well sorry but I couldnt leave him alone. We have both agreed to exchange books and read up then argue again at a later date.
It all started by me mentioning an interview i watched on the internet by Project Camelot.

[nicholaq]

Mike if you dont agree with all of this stuff why do you post on this forum. If you think its all shit, why do you bother??? Im not being nasty just curious??;)

[kweli]

Mike if you dont agree with all of this stuff why do you post on this forum. If you think its all shit, why do you bother??? Im not being nasty just curious??;)

I'm sure he won't appreciate me answering for him but he's simply defending his corner. But be wary, he's not one to give straight answers and often likes to ridicule. ;)

Sorry Mike - no offense meant I just speak from my own experiences in dealing with you.

[nicholaq]

Hi Kweli, I understand. Im just curious thats all.x:rolleyes:

[thelonious]

Mike if you dont agree with all of this stuff why do you post on this forum. If you think its all shit, why do you bother??? Im not being nasty just curious??;)

I can't speak for Mike, but as for me, I post here to counter the misinformation perpetuated against the Masonic institution. The conspiracy theorists have their say, the Masons have theirs, and if there are any unbiased observers, they can judge who's more likely telling the truth.

[stewart edwards]

often likes to ridicule. ;)

Sorry Mike - no offense meant I just speak from my own experiences in dealing with you.Funnily enough this was in essence the reason that I left Mikes forum years ago. Mikes post was only a tiny final straw after a lot of grief from other masons, but it was his post and him being a moderator that made me decide to leave and no longer associate my name with the forum. The really funny bit was that I had until then stood by the forum for months after many others had left it to set up a new forum:eek:

[thelonious]

He told me there where no higher levels other than the first three

There are three degrees in Ancient Craft Masonry, including the Supreme Order of the Holy Royal Arch, which is now conferred separately.

there was no swine flu conspiracy, the vaccine was safe, no illuminati, no agenda for a global government. I disagreed and argued my point on all of these subjects.

Swine flus and vaccines have nothing to do with Freemasonry. The historical Illuminati of Bavaria were a quasi-Masonic group of anti-theocratic rebels. However, Icke has publicly stated that when he says "Illuminati", he refers not to this semi-Masonic group, but instead to some cabal of government and corporate leaders, which really only confuses the issue.

He has never heard of David Icke!!

Neither had I until I found this forum by accident.

[stewart edwards]

if there are any unbiased observers, they can judge who's more likely telling the truth.Well I hope that I am relatively unbiased having spent a lot of time in both the conspiracy and the masonic worlds.

Truth is a funny thing.

If a conspiracy theorist says that "Masons do X" and Mason Bob says "no we dont that is rubbish" but the truth is that while Mason Charlie does do X, and the CT found out about it, who has lied? The mason for not making it clear "not in my obedience" or the CT for thinking that what one obedience does is followed by all?

Who is telling the truth? Both? Neither?

[nicholaq]

I can't speak for Mike, but as for me, I post here to counter the misinformation perpetuated against the Masonic institution. The conspiracy theorists have their say, the Masons have theirs, and if there are any unbiased observers, they can judge who's more likely telling the truth.

I respect and understand that.

With regards to swine flu that was a whole other argument within its self.

We are still friends. Just of the agreement to read each others stuff.;)

[mike martin]

Mike if you dont agree with all of this stuff why do you post on this forum. If you think its all shit, why do you bother??? Im not being nasty just curious??;)

Hey that's cool. Sometime's I'll post up real facts against the tosh that some people here post, sometimes I will supply the whole quotes for the little fragments that people construct their theories around and sometimes it's just interesting watching what people are willing to believe without ever seeing any proof.

Have a look through my previous postings to see what I mean.

Mike

[mike martin]

I'm sure he won't appreciate me answering for him but he's simply defending his corner. But be wary, he's not one to give straight answers and often likes to ridicule. ;)
You see in "normal people" english this actually translates to

"Mike doesn't say what I want him to say and he keeps on saying the same thing as if its true and that's just not fair because I know the conspiracy theories are all true really"

Sorry Mike - no offense meant I just speak from my own experiences in dealing with you.
I wouldn't worry, I don't. I think the only way you would actually know that I'm totally honest would be if you met me and I suspect even then your conspiracy chip would still prevent you from seeing it.

Mike

[nicholaq]

Hey that's cool. Sometime's I'll post up real facts against the tosh that some people here post, sometimes I will supply the whole quotes for the little fragments that people construct their theories around and sometimes it's just interesting watching what people are willing to believe without ever seeing any proof.

Have a look through my previous postings to see what I mean.

Mike

Thanks Mike I will do;)

[mike martin]

We are still friends. Just of the agreement to read each others stuff.;)

That's actually quite cool and shows that you're not one of the "unhinged", beware, they're about you know.

I personally started off on the other side of the fence (my intro to Masonry was Stephen Knight) in the early 80s but I was able to objectively compare the information about Masonry I was finding, some can't.

[kweli]

Funnily enough this was in essence the reason that I left Mikes forum years ago. Mikes post was only a tiny final straw after a lot of grief from other masons, but it was his post and him being a moderator that made me decide to leave and no longer associate my name with the forum. The really funny bit was that I had until then stood by the forum for months after many others had left it to set up a new forum:eek:

Then I empathise with you Stewart. I've always found your responses on this forum to be polite and non condescending; way to go fella - respect begets respect whether we're Freemasons or not.

[hadabusa]

Hi nicolaq,

Your friends fella is telling the truth about the first bit. From the little I know, the third degree (Master Mason) is the highest degree in the moderns form of masonry.
depends on the rite.

and yes, the rest is opinion.
masons arent future tellers, theyre regular blokes, as everyone else.

some join wow groups,some join lodges.

neither is unlawfull nor immoral.

[mike martin]

Then I empathise with you Stewart.
As do I.

[hadabusa]

i also noticed masons here are very respectfull,polite guys.
yeah, sometimes a highnosed statement is made,but in classy manners.

grandsecretarys jokes made my stomach cramp from laughter(menasty)several times.

i see nothing whatsoever wrong with masons ive met here or in person.

alex y2k jones followers on the other hands, are a bunch of crybabies.

[kweli]

You see in "normal people" english this actually translates to

"Mike doesn't say what I want him to say and he keeps on saying the same thing as if its true and that's just not fair because I know the conspiracy theories are all true really"


I wouldn't worry, I don't. I think the only way you would actually know that I'm totally honest would be if you met me and I suspect even then your conspiracy chip would still prevent you from seeing it.

Mike

There you go again. You're an antagonist. You think you're so intelligent but you lack common sense and people skills. How you translated my words into that drivel I don't know.

[boots]

There you go again. You're antagonist. You think you're so intelligent but you lack common sense and people skills. How you translated my words into that drivel I don't know.


Hi kweli,

It's because 90% of masons have a disdain for us "conspiracy nut's" As for us truth seekers I haven't seen anyone here shut off from their humility and call them sheeple.


Thats what they say openly on there forum.

.

[hadabusa]

There you go again. You're an antagonist. You think you're so intelligent but you lack common sense and people skills. How you translated my words into that drivel I don't know.

iq and smooth operator skills arent the same.
im living proof:p:D

[mike martin]

There you go again. You're an antagonist. You think you're so intelligent but you lack common sense and people skills. How you translated my words into that drivel I don't know.

Kweli,

It was meant to be "tongue in cheek" OK.

I may be a Mason but I've still got a sense of humour you know.

Mike

[mike martin]

It's because 90% of masons have a disdain for us "conspiracy nut's" As for us truth seekers I haven't seen anyone here shut off from their humility and call them sheeple.

Thats what they say openly on there forum..

What does that even mean??

[boots]

What does that even mean??

You figure it out mate.

.

[lostinstrangeworld]

I don't know that much about the levels of Freemasonry myself, its been quite a whiled since I listetened to Leo Zagami's interview on Project Camelot and such....I just assume there are different branches of Freemasonry and that is where the varying levels come into it. (?)

[kweli]

Hi kweli,

It's because 90% of masons have a disdain for us "conspiracy nut's" As for us truth seekers I haven't seen anyone here shut off from their humility and call them sheeple.


Thats what they say openly on there forum.

.

Hi Bootsy,

Not so sure about the 90% bit, I happen to know quite a few masons and they're very free thinking, lovely chaps. To be honest I don't feel in a posisition to dictate what one should believe in/follow. Jeez.. I was christened Catholic and my old Nan used to make me do the hail mary's & all that palaver! and I truly believed for much of my life. Then I joined a couple of 12 step fellowships (much bigger than the masons) and followed the 'program' to a tee! What a sucker hey? We live and learn fella - each to their own. I'm not here to judge.

iq and smooth operator skills arent the same.
im living proof:p:D

Me too. Shit education - self taught. And please don't take offense to this but you're anything but smooth - a rough diamond I'd say. ;)

Kweli,

It was meant to be "tongue in cheek" OK.

I may be a Mason but I've still got a sense of humour you know.

Mike

Hmmm - you hide it well. :D

[grandsecretary]

I can't speak for Mike, but as for me, I post here to counter the misinformation perpetuated against the Masonic institution. The conspiracy theorists have their say, the Masons have theirs, and if there are any unbiased observers, they can judge who's more likely telling the truth.

Well! Fornicate with a webbed footed friend. :eek:

[keystone]

Well! Fornicate with a webbed footed friend. :eek:2nd time in 24 hrs you've used that one. Tsk Tsk - not becoming a repeater are you? :D

Be kind to your web-footed friends
For that duck may be somebody's mother,
She lives in a nest in a swamp
Where the weather is always damp.

You may think that this is the end,.....

etc

Well it is!

Cheers

[stompk]

Ask what drinking out of a skull signifies.

[keystone]

Ok. What does drinking out of a skull signify?

[kweli]

Well! Fornicate with a webbed footed friend. :eek:

2nd time in 24 hrs you've used that one. Tsk Tsk - not becoming a repeater are you? :D


Well it is!

Cheers

Fuck a duck? :eek: Eee you masons make the mind boggle! whatever next!

[keystone]

Fuck a duck? :eek: Eee you masons make the mind boggle! whatever next!Nah - he's either being clever or he thinks he can't use the words he really wants to. Alternatively it could just be airs and graces. Actors!

Cheers

[stevepenny]

Hi kweli,

It's because 90% of masons have a disdain for us "conspiracy nut's" As for us truth seekers I haven't seen anyone here shut off from their humility and call them sheeple.


Thats what they say openly on there forum.

.

Boots,

You really don't get it do you? I have a lot of respect for people like yourself who have an alternative take on the world; it balances the conventional perspective.

Where I, and probabaly most Masons draw the line, is when conspiracy theorists rehash already discredited material in order to make a point; or, they want to hammer home a point without taking an objective view.

As i've said to you on other threads, if you want to ask a question, I and most other Masons will be glad to answer. Apparently you have got bored with that particular thread and I can only assume that once Keystone backed up my argument you decided to move on.

[keystone]

Ask what drinking out of a skull signifies.Well I did but you didn't reply. Never mind.

How's this for one possible answer?

As the Merovingians, like all other Celtic Tribes, were head-hunters, they believed that the power of a person resided in their head. So, they would take the heads of their Saints and place them in a Chalice or Graal and pour wine over the skull. This would transmute the wine into "Holy Blood" that was invigorated with the mystical power of that Saint. The Catholics adopted the same ritual for their Mass, but left out the skull of Jesus, although the concept is precisely the same (transmutation of the sacramental wine into the Blood of Christ).

Cheers

[stevepenny]

Hi guys, need a bit of help here. Had a disscusion today with my friends partner who happens to be a member of a local masonic lodge.
He told me there where no higher levels other than the first three, there was no swine flu conspiracy, the vaccine was safe, no illuminati, no agenda for a global government. I disagreed and argued my point on all of these subjects.
He has never heard of David Icke!!
By the end of this argument I was in a right twist, but felt like I had given my best with regards to what I know so far.
What is the best way of responding to somebody like this??? without wanting to lose your rag!!

Thanks guys, love you all. xoxoxo;)

Hi Nicola,

This thread seems to have wandered off slightly; so perhaps this will bring it back on course.

He told me there where no higher levels other than the first three,

In 'Moderns' Freemasonry the first three degrees are conferred in what is known as the 'Blue Lodge'. The higest degree in a Blue Lodge is that of Master Mason.

There are other Masonic orders such as the Royal Arch, the Cryptic Council and the Knights Templar; but these are referred to as 'side degrees'.

The one exception in Scotland is that the 'Mark' degree, which is part of the Royal Arch, may be conferred in the Blue Lodge.

there was no swine flu conspiracy, the vaccine was safe,

My understanding is that flu vaccines all use the same basic form which is altered to suit the strain in question. This allows them to produce vacccines very quickly. Therefore it would be fair to assume that if the vaccine is very similar to that which is already used on the elderly, then perhaps it is safe.

no illuminati,

In this respect he is wrong. The Bavarian Illuminati were formed by Adam Weishaupt in 1776. There is a fairly good article on Wikipedia if you want to read about them.

no agenda for a global government.

Again I think he is wrong. We have already seen the erosion of the effectiveness of the UK Government in favour of Europe; and we seem to have a 'Special' relationship with the USA. Couple this with the threats coming out of the middle east and you have a primordial soup that could ultimately spawn a world government.

I don't think i'll see it, and perhaps not my children either, but i'm sure it will happen eventually.

I disagreed and argued my point on all of these subjects.

and so you should :)

He has never heard of David Icke!!

Who? ;)

Seriously, I remember David as a sports presenter on 'Grandstand'. I think that gives my age away.....

[boots]

Boots,

You really don't get it do you? I have a lot of respect for people like yourself who have an alternative take on the world; it balances the conventional perspective.

Where I, and probabaly most Masons draw the line, is when conspiracy theorists rehash already discredited material in order to make a point; or, they want to hammer home a point without taking an objective view.

As i've said to you on other threads, if you want to ask a question, I and most other Masons will be glad to answer. Apparently you have got bored with that particular thread and I can only assume that once Keystone backed up my argument you decided to move on.


Steve you dont get it either:D

NO it's not that I dont want to answer a particular thread or post, it's that I have other things that are happening, (like the phone, ringing now:rolleyes::rolleyes:) and I loose track.

OK , I will apologise, that I lumped in your particular "brand" of freemasonry with other's. yet I see the similarities in the rituals. So can you see where I'm coming from.?

I dont hate or despise people who choose to follow masonry. What I'm more interested in is the spirituality that drives masonry and the doors that are closed off from those of lesser degree's. You see I know there are those that have a malevolent purposes to this, There are satanist who are masons and hold position of higher degrees within masonry and they use the energy behind that, for their own benefit. Steve there is a NWO you can see it coming, you have more CCTV cameras than there are people in England. It's 1984 coming to life.

.

[nicholaq]

Hi Nicola,

This thread seems to have wandered off slightly; so perhaps this will bring it back on course.



In 'Moderns' Freemasonry the first three degrees are conferred in what is known as the 'Blue Lodge'. The higest degree in a Blue Lodge is that of Master Mason.

There are other Masonic orders such as the Royal Arch, the Cryptic Council and the Knights Templar; but these are referred to as 'side degrees'.

The one exception in Scotland is that the 'Mark' degree, which is part of the Royal Arch, may be conferred in the Blue Lodge.



My understanding is that flu vaccines all use the same basic form which is altered to suit the strain in question. This allows them to produce vacccines very quickly. Therefore it would be fair to assume that if the vaccine is very similar to that which is already used on the elderly, then perhaps it is safe.



In this respect he is wrong. The Bavarian Illuminati were formed by Adam Weishaupt in 1776. There is a fairly good article on Wikipedia if you want to read about them.



Again I think he is wrong. We have already seen the erosion of the effectiveness of the UK Government in favour of Europe; and we seem to have a 'Special' relationship with the USA. Couple this with the threats coming out of the middle east and you have a primordial soup that could ultimately spawn a world government.

I don't think i'll see it, and perhaps not my children either, but i'm sure it will happen eventually.



and so you should :)



Who? ;)

Seriously, I remember David as a sports presenter on 'Grandstand'. I think that gives my age away.....

Hi stevepenny, I think im going to let everyone else discuss this now. But thankyou fo the info.:D

[stevepenny]

OK , I will apologise, that I lumped in your particular "brand" of freemasonry with other's. yet I see the similarities in the rituals. So can you see where I'm coming from.?

Hi Boots,

Yes I can see the similarities, and yes at one time the rituals were a lot closeer than they are now. I wouldn't say that I had a particular 'brand' of Freemasonry but I do take the point. Scottish Freemasonry is a lot older than that of England and we have always have a different prespective; but yes we have been influenced by those down south.

I too should apologies for starting off on the wrong foot :)

I dont hate or despise people who choose to follow masonry. What I'm more interested in is the spirituality that drives masonry and the doors that are closed off from those of lesser degree's.

This is I think a common yet understandable misconception. Craft Masonry only extends to 3 degrees which are conferred to the Blue Lodge. It is within this framework that the vast majority of Freemasons meet.

Those who choose to join other Masonic orders such as the Royal Arch do so because it is what they want. The Royal Arch allows progression to the Cryptic Council and the Templars.

There is also a popular misconception regarding the Scottish Rite. It has nothing to do with Scotland, being of American origin. It is this degree which extends from the 4th to the 33rd that seems to be the subject of various conspiracy theories.

It is American in origin and is I suppose in some way, something of a social club for high ranking Americans, such as Senators and Politicians. And no doubt a lot of 'business' goes on behind closed doors. A candidate can go from the 4th to the 33nd degree in just one day if he so chooses; which just goes to show just how shabby and pointless it is.

You see I know there are those that have a malevolent purposes to this, There are satanist who are masons and hold position of higher degrees within masonry and they use the energy behind that, for their own benefit.

I think this is where we differ. Whilst I accept that you truly believe this; is this from the perspective that you know names, addresses, and intentions; or just something which you have read or heard from other sources?

Aleister Crowley, who is often pictured giving alledged Masonic signs, was never a Freemason, yet this has now become part of the common culture.

I personally have never met a Satanist, and I am well established within the higher or side degrees of Freemasonry. I have never seen or heard of any secrets, other than those to which Freemasonry freely admits; and i've never ridden on a goat ;)

Steve there is a NWO you can see it coming, you have more CCTV cameras than there are people in England. It's 1984 coming to life.

Again a popular misconception with a modicum of truth. There are approximately 4.2m CCTV cameras in the UK, which works out at 1 for every 14 people. These range from traffic cameras to those installed in private houses for security purposes.

Are they good or bad? They help to reduce crime although the jury is still out on an actual figure, and they have helped in some quite high profile child abduction cases. The alternative view is that they are an infringement of civil liberties.

I think that if it were a case of catching somebody who had assaulted me, over their civil liberties, I would choose cameras every time. Who wouldn't?

My own personal view is this. If you don't break the law you have nothing to fear from CCTV cameras.

[stewart edwards]

Just for completenessThere is also a popular misconception regarding the Scottish Rite. It has nothing to do with Scotland, being of American origin. It is this degree which extends from the 4th to the 33rd that seems to be the subject of various conspiracy theories.

It is American in origin and is I suppose in some way, something of a social club for high ranking Americans, such as Senators and Politicians. And no doubt a lot of 'business' goes on behind closed doors. A candidate can go from the 4th to the 33nd degree in just one day if he so chooses; which just goes to show just how shabby and pointless it is.
In England there exists at least two rites which feature these 4-33 degrees. The UGLE associated one is I understand christian only and it is pretty difficult to get the 30th degree far less anything above. You are talking about a lifetime of service and even then you are very unlikely to get to 33rd degree. Totally different to the system in America.

The other that I am aware of is in similar to ugles version in that it is not at all easy to get to the highest degrees, though they still wear the pink aprons in the 17/18? degree. Very nice they are to. In that order the various craft lodges have a continual progression from 1 - 33 degree and the regalia is I think worn in craft lodge.

[stewart edwards]

My own personal view is this. If you don't break the law you have nothing to fear from CCTV cameras.Agreed. Unless you are being stitched up using movie editing software as in the cgi of hollywood. (I am learning to use photoshop and photo animation software which has convinced me never to believe a photograph again in my life. It must be a nightmare for courts as what was once concrete evidence could now simply be photoshopped together).

That said I am more than happy to give up some privacy for personal security. If you are not out doing criminal acts there really is no problem. (unless the spooks want to stitch you up:eek: in which case you are pretty much bu@@@@ed anyway [I love the spooks tv series])

[grandsecretary]

The cameras are there primarily as a deterrent, and research has shown that it has caused a significant reduction in street crime and burglaries. NOBODY may be convicted on CCTV evidence alone.

[boots]

Hi Boots,

Yes I can see the similarities, and yes at one time the rituals were a lot closeer than they are now. I wouldn't say that I had a particular 'brand' of Freemasonry but I do take the point. Scottish Freemasonry is a lot older than that of England and we have always have a different prespective; but yes we have been influenced by those down south.

I too should apologies for starting off on the wrong foot :)



This is I think a common yet understandable misconception. Craft Masonry only extends to 3 degrees which are conferred to the Blue Lodge. It is within this framework that the vast majority of Freemasons meet.

Those who choose to join other Masonic orders such as the Royal Arch do so because it is what they want. The Royal Arch allows progression to the Cryptic Council and the Templars.

There is also a popular misconception regarding the Scottish Rite. It has nothing to do with Scotland, being of American origin. It is this degree which extends from the 4th to the 33rd that seems to be the subject of various conspiracy theories.

It is American in origin and is I suppose in some way, something of a social club for high ranking Americans, such as Senators and Politicians. And no doubt a lot of 'business' goes on behind closed doors. A candidate can go from the 4th to the 33nd degree in just one day if he so chooses; which just goes to show just how shabby and pointless it is.



I think this is where we differ. Whilst I accept that you truly believe this; is this from the perspective that you know names, addresses, and intentions; or just something which you have read or heard from other sources?

Aleister Crowley, who is often pictured giving alledged Masonic signs, was never a Freemason, yet this has now become part of the common culture.

I personally have never met a Satanist, and I am well established within the higher or side degrees of Freemasonry. I have never seen or heard of any secrets, other than those to which Freemasonry freely admits; and i've never ridden on a goat ;)



Again a popular misconception with a modicum of truth. There are approximately 4.2m CCTV cameras in the UK, which works out at 1 for every 14 people. These range from traffic cameras to those installed in private houses for security purposes.

Are they good or bad? They help to reduce crime although the jury is still out on an actual figure, and they have helped in some quite high profile child abduction cases. The alternative view is that they are an infringement of civil liberties.

I think that if it were a case of catching somebody who had assaulted me, over their civil liberties, I would choose cameras every time. Who wouldn't?

My own personal view is this. If you don't break the law you have nothing to fear from CCTV cameras.

G'day Steve.

Thank you for your apology too. Maybe we can get together one time and ride a goat around...just for laugh's:D

Those that are into satanic activities wont freely admit it and will be very cautious and will only let those know, who they see as being one off them. This could be a whole different thread. So I wont go on.

But this interests me greatly, and thats the NWO. So bear with me as I go off topic and get into this.

It looks as if your are right about the number of CCtv cameras I was going on the figure the 60 minutes program quoted just recently.

Do they work in solving crime. I dont think so, crims will work out how to get around them and for the figures, they dont work.

Please have a look at this article.

http://www.thisislondon.co.uk/news/article-23412867-tens-of-thousands-of-cctv-cameras-yet-80-of-crime-unsolved.do;jsessionid=9BE5EE984BDDCE0F96C8D5FF184 6A1C1



and you might like to read this. Same goes for you Stewart Edwards.:)

http://blog.brandonschory.com/2009/08/what-the-fuck-is-wrong-with-england/

Look mate, it's late here and I need to get my beauty sleep or I'll wake up uglier than I am, if thats possible;)

It was nice to talk in a respectful way to you Steve, I will debate you as I do Keystone.;)


Regards.

[boots]

The cameras are there primarily as a deterrent, and research has shown that it has caused a significant reduction in street crime and burglaries. NOBODY may be convicted on CCTV evidence alone.


I think you will find this is not the case GS, please look at the link I have put up in response to Stevepenny.

.

[grandsecretary]

We are not talking eggs and eggs boots.

Research definitely shows that CCTV cameras act as a deterrent but then do not assist as much as they should with the clear up rates. That is because the vast majority of CCTV cameras are crap. Everyone looks like my mother-in-law. :eek:

As I sad earlier, evidence from CCTV cameras is not acceptable in our courts without corroborating evidence. This is due to the dangers of mis-identification (bad quality pictures) and over reliance on CCTV footage by lazy policemen who only want a quick "nick" and not a successful prosecution of a proven criminal, which is what we all want to see.

[stevepenny]

G'day Steve.

Thank you for your apology too. Maybe we can get together one time and ride a goat around...just for laugh's:D

Hi Boots,

I look forward to it...;)

I'm off-line till Monday so i'll catch up with your posts then.

Steve

[flyermay]

IMHO, it's rather irrelevant if conspiracy theories are true or not (though many are true). What can be proven -and it's widely accepted as fact- around the world is already bad enough!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cb4eHFu79G0

[boots]

Hi Boots,

I look forward to it...;)

I'm off-line till Monday so i'll catch up with your posts then.

Steve

No worries Steve. Have a good break.


Also thanks for there clarification on the freemasonry issue.

.

[flyermay]

Great avatar Boots!!!

[boots]

Grate avatar Boots!!!


LOL. Thank you flyermay. I've got a feeling that they want to "free" some more nations. FFS, not again:rolleyes:

.

[boots]

We are not talking eggs and eggs boots.

Research definitely shows that CCTV cameras act as a deterrent but then do not assist as much as they should with the clear up rates. That is because the vast majority of CCTV cameras are crap. Everyone looks like my mother-in-law. :eek:

As I sad earlier, evidence from CCTV cameras is not acceptable in our courts without corroborating evidence. This is due to the dangers of mis-identification (bad quality pictures) and over reliance on CCTV footage by lazy policemen who only want a quick "nick" and not a successful prosecution of a proven criminal, which is what we all want to see.


Now come on, not everyone is as ugly as your Mother-in-law:eek: No offence to your missus.

Well, the statistic show that they dont lower the crime rate.

A comparison of the number of cameras in each London borough with the proportion of crimes solved there found that police are no more likely to catch offenders in areas with hundreds of cameras than in those with hardly any.
In fact, four out of five of the boroughs with the most cameras have a record of solving crime that is below average.


The figures show:
• There are now 10,524 CCTV cameras in 32 London boroughs funded with Home Office grants totalling about £200million.
• Hackney has the most cameras - 1,484 - and has a better-than-average clearup rate of 22.2 per cent.
• Wandsworth has 993 cameras, Tower Hamlets, 824, Greenwich, 747 and Lewisham 730, but police in all four boroughs fail to reach the average 21 per cent crime clear-up rate for London.
• By contrast, boroughs such as Kensington and Chelsea, Sutton and Waltham Forest have fewer than 100 cameras each yet they still have clear-up rates of around 20 per cent.
• Police in Sutton have one of the highest clear-ups with 25 per cent.
• Brent police have the highest clear-up rate, with 25.9 per cent of crimes solved in 2006-07, even though the borough has only 164 cameras.
The figures appear to confirm earlier studies which have thrown doubt on the effectiveness of CCTV cameras.
A report by the criminal justice charity Nacro in 2002 concluded that the money spent on cameras would be better used on street lighting, which has been shown to cut crime by up to 20 per cent.


What you have with these camera's is a George Orwell book coming to life.

They will monitor your every move. You accidentally drop something and They will tell you, they have them with speakers nowadays. You cross the road in the wrong spot, and you will be told off. They will turn into a money making device, just you wait and see. Do you want to be treated as a little kid.


The NWO is all about control. Control of what you think and what you do.


.

[boots]

IMHO, it's rather irrelevant if conspiracy theories are true or not (though many are true). What can be proven -and it's widely accepted as fact- around the world is already bad enough!!!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cb4eHFu79G0


Yes thats a NWO. Plenty of good policing going on there too.:mad:

Some how the vid paused at 1:32. for a minute......Dont know why?? Maybe because I'm a bit of a perv. LOL. Monica Hubba hubba.

.

[keystone]

f you don't break the law you have nothing to fear from CCTV cameras.

Yes I used to think that too - in particular in relation to ID cards. I've changed my opinion.

Its not just the use of the technology thats the problem. Its the potential for abuse which will then inevitably transmogrify into sustained and habitual abuse thats the problem.

If you can get some moron in a Council CCTV Control Room barking at you over the loudspeaker adjacent to the camera for dropping a sweet wrapper accidentally where could it lead?

Look at this ridiculous case for example:

BRITISH police spent 10,000 pounds ($24,385) to catch and prosecute a woman driver for eating an apple while behind the wheel, reports said.

Sarah McCaffrey, a 23-year-old nursery nurse, was fined 60 pounds on Monday and ordered to pay 100 pounds in legal fees for her infraction dating from December 2003.

An officer pulled McCaffrey over when he saw her with only one hand on the wheel, thinking she had illegally been using a mobile phone while driving. He issued a 30-pound spot fine after discovering it was only an apple, but the matter ended in court after McCaffrey appealed against the fine.

Her lawyer mocked the ruling as "nonsensical" and criticized the police surveillance produced for the trial, which included aerial photographs, a video shot from police aircraft and a video recording from a police car.

"Nothing illustrates the nonsense of this case more than the resources that have been thrown at it," Geoffrey Forrester said after judges at a court in South Tyneside, northeast England, ruled McCaffrey had not had full control of her Ford Ka when she turned left with an apple in her right hand.

Police said the trial - which has included 10 hearings - cost only 425 pounds, excluding the cost of aerial photographs and video. But reports in newspapers on Tuesday put the total bill for the operation at 10,000 pounds.

Its creeping and insidious monitoring and surveillance of the individual. Thank goodness that facial recognition technology doesn't really work for an unenrolled individual - yet. It will!

Your car can be tracked wherever it goes using ALPR technologies. They know when you are in the Congestion Charge zone. One of the potential abuses of the Specs "average speed over distance" speed monitoring is system is to track every vehicle.

There's an app just released for your mobile (cell) that will allow you to show on a map on your mobile where your friends are located because you told the system what their numbers are! On a national scale you, as an individual, could (I stress could) be tracked wherever you are. "Oh look Keystones mobile puts him at the corner of X street and Y road. Quick look at the CCTV, George - yep there he is"

The metadatabase of the National ID card scheme (despite all the protestations of the Government) has the potential to store much more data about you as an individual than you can ever imagine and provide a total sudit trail of your activities.

The government have the potential to know where you are, what you are doing, which shops you visited today, how much you withdrew from the bank this morning etc etc etc than ever before.

You are now assumed guilty and have to prove your innocence rather than the other way round.

Combine this (OK perhaps exaggerated a bit) scenario with the fact that we have a marxist government that is marching us blindly towards a totalitarian European Superstate where there are no democratic checks and balances on the activities of those that rule, which ploughs onwards relentlessly, The EU has not had accounts signed off as acceptable by its auditors every single year for the last 14 years. There is no accountability at all. Our sovereignty is thrown away. Our individual rights are eroded to non existence.

We have sleepwalked into "1984" already. The spectres of "Brave New World" are with us as well. Pass the bloody soma someone.

Have I nothing to worry about? Have I nothing to fear?

Oh yes I certainly think I do.

Cheers

[stewart edwards]

The government have the potential to know where you are, what you are doing, which shops you visited today, how much you withdrew from the bank this morning etc etc etc than ever before.As long as you have a robust, honest government where is the problem? Oh I forgot the expenses scandal.:eek: Actually it sort of makes me feel kinda safe, for if teh government knows what I am doing then it should know what the bad uns are doing. Though I do accept that weak governments could easily turn into dictatorship 1984 et all. Which is why good governance is important.

You are now assumed guilty and have to prove your innocence rather than the other way round.Surely this is more an unintended side effect of the police having to meet statistical standards re crime solving than surveillance?

Combine this (OK perhaps exaggerated a bit) scenario with the fact that we have a marxist government that is marching us blindly towards a totalitarian European Superstate where there are no democratic checks and balances on the activities of those that rule, which ploughs onwards relentlessly, The EU has not had accounts signed off as acceptable by its auditors every single year for the last 14 years. There is no accountability at all. Our sovereignty is thrown away. Our individual rights are eroded to non existence.You have the right to work, live and get medical treatment anywhere in the EU. OK the accounts are a mess and Andreasons book is a real eye opener on this, but it is resolvable by raising ethical standards in practice at the top levels of the EU. OK this may be a hard thing to do in practice but I will do my best;) (Where do I get an application form for European president?):D

Have I nothing to worry about? Have I nothing to fear?

Oh yes I certainly think I do.

CheersOne of the advantages of believing in reincarnation is that if things got really bad you could simply die, wait a while and return when society has evolved a bit.

Keystone, the EU has simply grown faster that it has been ready for, combined with the difficult necessity of getting people to work together, has resulted in unfortunate horse trading and inadequate checks and balances. It is my personal view that we should have had a referendum, and accepted the results of it, and if negative towards the EU focused on better working for mutual benefit with the EU being more of a facilitator than a superstate. While a Earth Union/United States of Earth is something that I would very much like to see, it will only work recognising strength through diversity.

Vote Stewart Edwards for European president - the common man for the common man. (proven experience in standing up powers that be [and paying for it:( ]going to the police, etc). Proven ability to touch hearts and enable people to take positive steps forwards in their lives. Proven ability to inspire in multisport as an obese middle aged man. etc. General pain in the ass.:D

Seriously I know that Tony Blair probably has the job, but I would like it.

[drc_]

Hi guys, need a bit of help here. Had a disscusion today with my friends partner who happens to be a member of a local masonic lodge.
He told me there where no higher levels other than the first three, there was no swine flu conspiracy, the vaccine was safe, no illuminati, no agenda for a global government. I disagreed and argued my point on all of these subjects.
He has never heard of David Icke!!
By the end of this argument I was in a right twist, but felt like I had given my best with regards to what I know so far.
What is the best way of responding to somebody like this??? without wanting to lose your rag!!

Thanks guys, love you all. xoxoxo;)

I think the best way is to not get into an argument with somebody like that. There is no point in trying to get across what you know if they don't want to hear it, there's very little chance he'll change his perception of things.

If you feel someone is really open for discussion and willing to take a deeper look into things it's worth your time. :) Otherwise, you'll just lose your rag ;)

Save your energy for other people :D

[marpat]

I think the best way is to not get into an argument with somebody like that. There is no point in trying to get across what you know if they don't want to hear it, there's very little chance he'll change his perception of things.

If you feel someone is really open for discussion and willing to take a deeper look into things it's worth your time. :) Otherwise, you'll just lose your rag ;)

Save your energy for other people :D

What you mean is keep believing the conspiracies no matter what others will tell you.

[keystone]

As long as you have a robust, honest government where is the problem?Yes but we don't.

Which is why good governance is important.I agree.

Surely this is more an unintended side effect of the police having to meet statistical standards re crime solving than surveillance?Well if there is one thing in respect of the law that the Conservative Party should hang its head in shame for its PACE which has led to all that. However, is perverting an ancient inalienable right of the British "citizen" to be innocent unless proven guilty in the pursuit of statistics a morally justifiable activity?

You have the right to work, live and get medical treatment anywhere in the EU.As a delta or a prole? That would be fine then. Sorry Stewart but I've got very jaundiced in me old age.

OK the accounts are a mess......Understatement of the bleeding century my friend.

....but it is resolvable by raising ethical standards in practice at the top levels of the EU.which is riven with corruption, placemen and cronies. After 14 years - its inbred into a generation of Eu bureaucrats.

One of the advantages of believing in reincarnation is that if things got really bad you could simply die, wait a while and return when society has evolved a bit.I take your point. Intuitively I know I'm going somewhere else when I shuffle of this mortal coil. I hope its a better place. ATM I hope its not here!

...It is my personal view that we should have had a referendum, and accepted the results of it, and if negative towards the EU focused on better working for mutual benefit with the EU being more of a facilitator than a superstate.Of course we should. Unfortunately for me I'm afaid I lost my rose coloured glasses some time ago.

Seriously I know that Tony Blair probably has the job..........and thats precisely the problem.

... but I would like it.If we have to have one I rather think I'd like someone like you to have it Stewart.

Cheers

[onega]

are you pretending to be naive,uncomprehending or mentally defective in some way.just what are the masons objectives and are they achieving them.

[keystone]

are you pretending to be naive,uncomprehending or mentally defective in some way.No are you?

Cheers

[stewart edwards]

What I find quite amusing is that I would bring in a European Union/United States of Earth if I were in a position to do so. I would bring the various religions together in a temple of light and life. I would help the human race take a positive step forwards on its evolution so to speak. I would return maat/harmony/stability to this planet. Things that some conspiracy theorists worry about the masons doing. Yet the masons rejected me!!!!!!:eek:

[edelweiss pirate]

Yet the masons rejected me!!!!!!:eek:

You don't know how lucky you are.

Curiosity kills the cat, as they say.



You seem to have high ideals, so do I, unfortunately the world doesn't work that way.

It has no time for idealists. They shrink at bloodletting and balk at machiavellian methodology.

Just take a look at history. Nothing has changed in their methods nothing ever will change in their methods.

You wouldn't want to be part of it honestly and that's not what we are here for anyway.

It may seem a bit defeatist but the reason we are here on earth is in order to get out in one piece and find a heavenly repose when our lives end. Joining the masons end up with you being an indentured servant of unknown superiors for multiple lifetimes.

I'd rather be my own man and be responsible for my own mistakes rather than have to ride a blind horse in the devil's steeplechase.

[nth_degree]

I remember somebody saying that, "Any organisation in our modern society that advocates secrecy is an abomination." :rolleyes:

Discussing this issue with low level "ladder climbers" seems like asking a private in the uk army if the iraq war is "legal" :D

Despite this id like to throw the analucious calender in the mix (not sure if i spelt that right?) [unusual dates appearing on corner stones!] :eek:

[keystone]

Anno Lucis.

http://freemasonry.bcy.ca/texts/annolucis.html

Cheers

[stewart edwards]

Ball part (ish I give you depending on what you read) the time of the rise of dynastic egypt. Must be a conspiracy theory in there somewhere. ;)

[keystone]

Ball part (ish I give you depending on what you read) the time of the rise of dynastic egypt. Must be a conspiracy theory in there somewhere. ;)You had a couple of sherberts Stewart? :D

Cheers

[stewart edwards]

Rum and coke - just a couple:D

[boots]

As long as you have a robust, honest government where is the problem? Oh I forgot the expenses scandal.:eek: Actually it sort of makes me feel kinda safe, for if teh government knows what I am doing then it should know what the bad uns are doing. Though I do accept that weak governments could easily turn into dictatorship 1984 et all. Which is why good governance is important.

When has there ever been an honest and robust government? They are just puppet's. They are told what to do or suddenly find themselves in a scandal, the newspapers are good at doing that. Since there are 5 MSM organisation in the world. You have a problem.

Thats interesting Stewart, "you kinda fell safe" Funny, how all these drugs get into the country, with all these security measure's.


Surely this is more an unintended side effect of the police having to meet statistical standards re crime solving than surveillance?

That very statement you made just smacks of corruption. All should be innocent before proven guilty. But thats not the case, is it? This another way they control you, by turning law into a money making exercise. They bleed you dry with taxes and fines.



You have the right to work, live and get medical treatment anywhere in the EU. OK the accounts are a mess and Andreasons book is a real eye opener on this, but it is resolvable by raising ethical standards in practice at the top levels of the EU. OK this may be a hard thing to do in practice but I will do my best;) (Where do I get an application form for European president?):D


No one is accountable within the EU. There are Millions of laws passed that are filed in a huge warehouse. Do you them all? So one day you might find yourself breaking one of those laws.



One of the advantages of believing in reincarnation is that if things got really bad you could simply die, wait a while and return when society has evolved a bit.

The point is to do it here and now, not in another life time.


Keystone, the EU has simply grown faster that it has been ready for, combined with the difficult necessity of getting people to work together, has resulted in unfortunate horse trading and inadequate checks and balances. It is my personal view that we should have had a referendum, and accepted the results of it, and if negative towards the EU focused on better working for mutual benefit with the EU being more of a facilitator than a superstate. While a Earth Union/United States of Earth is something that I would very much like to see, it will only work recognising strength through diversity.

It's by design that it has grown this fast what better way to pass draconian laws, that people would reject in a referendum. A referendum should have been the first thing they should have done. Is'nt that a democracy?


Vote Stewart Edwards for European president - the common man for the common man. (proven experience in standing up powers that be [and paying for it:( ]going to the police, etc). Proven ability to touch hearts and enable people to take positive steps forwards in their lives. Proven ability to inspire in multisport as an obese middle aged man. etc. General pain in the ass.:D

Seriously I know that Tony Blair probably has the job, but I would like it.

Could we shoot you if you ever fail to implement the will of the people. :D

.

[keystone]

Is'nt that a democracy?Unfortunately most countries that think they are a democracy are, in reality, an oligarchy.

Cheers

[boots]

Yes I used to think that too - in particular in relation to ID cards. I've changed my opinion.

Its not just the use of the technology thats the problem. Its the potential for abuse which will then inevitably transmogrify into sustained and habitual abuse thats the problem.

If you can get some moron in a Council CCTV Control Room barking at you over the loudspeaker adjacent to the camera for dropping a sweet wrapper accidentally where could it lead?


Very true Keystone, They will find that ID cards wont work as they can easily be forged. The next step will be a chip implant, and that is happening already.

Look at this ridiculous case for example:


Pathetic. Thats an abuse of common law rights and a waste of money.



Its creeping and insidious monitoring and surveillance of the individual. Thank goodness that facial recognition technology doesn't really work for an unenrolled individual - yet. It will!

It's starting to happen now.

Your car can be tracked wherever it goes using ALPR technologies. They know when you are in the Congestion Charge zone. One of the potential abuses of the Specs "average speed over distance" speed monitoring is system is to track every vehicle.

There's an app just released for your mobile (cell) that will allow you to show on a map on your mobile where your friends are located because you told the system what their numbers are! On a national scale you, as an individual, could (I stress could) be tracked wherever you are. "Oh look Keystones mobile puts him at the corner of X street and Y road. Quick look at the CCTV, George - yep there he is"

The metadatabase of the National ID card scheme (despite all the protestations of the Government) has the potential to store much more data about you as an individual than you can ever imagine and provide a total sudit trail of your activities.

The government have the potential to know where you are, what you are doing, which shops you visited today, how much you withdrew from the bank this morning etc etc etc than ever before.

You are now assumed guilty and have to prove your innocence rather than the other way round.

Combine this (OK perhaps exaggerated a bit) scenario with the fact that we have a marxist government that is marching us blindly towards a totalitarian European Superstate where there are no democratic checks and balances on the activities of those that rule, which ploughs onwards relentlessly, The EU has not had accounts signed off as acceptable by its auditors every single year for the last 14 years. There is no accountability at all. Our sovereignty is thrown away. Our individual rights are eroded to non existence.

We have sleepwalked into "1984" already. The spectres of "Brave New World" are with us as well. Pass the bloody soma someone.

Have I nothing to worry about? Have I nothing to fear?

Oh yes I certainly think I do.

Cheers

Exactly Keystone. This what they want a NWO without people having a say in how they are treated.

.

[boots]

Unfortunately most countries that think they are a democracy are, in reality, an oligarchy.

Cheers

Thats right mate.

Democracy isn't even a true form of government. I cant find the vid where Alan Russo explains it but you get 51% of a population deciding what the another half should do. When you have lobby groups from corporations pushing there own POV and combined with the MSM. Then the people loose out.

The elite have total control now it's just we dont know it.:eek:

Banking is a powerful tool to control us.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZbWXxg_hdYk

.

[camreeno]

Just tell them to do research and draw their conclusions. If you try to give them evidence they're just automatically reject it. Give them a list of books to read or documentaries to watch.

[stewart edwards]

Could we shoot you if you ever fail to implement the will of the people. :DWell assuming for a moment that by chance I was able to get the job, I would be very unpopular for I would have absolutely no qualms about sorting the EU out. You are correct that this would mean that I would be blackmailed, put into all sorts of scandals etc and generally made to look the bad guy. Been there done that and got the tshirt some years back when I stood up to a power that be who was acting in a way that I couldnt stomach.

In reality the European president will have very little real power for the institution will act against effective reform through vested self interest. But this is where the will of the people could help, for if he had the support of the people and people read the news critically/bloggers took a real interest when he or she is being stitched up, then he might just be able to make a difference.

Anyhow to answer the question - shoot me - of course not. But I would have no problems with holding monthly press conferences/public attendance sessions, where you could come and put me on the spot to get me to explain my actions. Hey you could even do it here.:D I would expect that I would still come here daily. You could have a sticky thread "Ask the European President" - clearly I would be a busy chappy and there would no doubt be some questions that I couldnt answer through security reasons. But you know what you would get from me re responses.

What is 5 MSM by the way?

[boots]

Well assuming for a moment that by chance I was able to get the job, I would be very unpopular for I would have absolutely no qualms about sorting the EU out. You are correct that this would mean that I would be blackmailed, put into all sorts of scandals etc and generally made to look the bad guy. Been there done that and got the tshirt some years back when I stood up to a power that be who was acting in a way that I couldnt stomach.

In reality the European president will have very little real power for the institution will act against effective reform through vested self interest. But this is where the will of the people could help, for if he had the support of the people and people read the news critically/bloggers took a real interest when he or she is being stitched up, then he might just be able to make a difference.

Anyhow to answer the question - shoot me - of course not. But I would have no problems with holding monthly press conferences/public attendance sessions, where you could come and put me on the spot to get me to explain my actions. Hey you could even do it here.:D I would expect that I would still come here daily. You could have a sticky thread "Ask the European President" - clearly I would be a busy chappy and there would no doubt be some questions that I couldnt answer through security reasons. But you know what you would get from me re responses.

What is 5 MSM by the way?


That's the crux of the matter. ( in bold) Those vested interests want a puppet to do their bidding Stewart. Thats how the elite/illuminati work. You wouldn't get to far mate. JFK tried that, and so did Abraham Lincoln and you know what happened to those 2...........You see these guys wanted to have a monetary system, that was controlled by congress which would have been for the people.

What is 5 MSM. Main Stream Media. There are only 5 corporations that control the flow of news world wide and they have vested interests, very much aligned with The powers that be. (TPTB).


.

[hirschfelder]

Hi guys, need a bit of help here. Had a disscusion today with my friends partner who happens to be a member of a local masonic lodge.
He told me there where no higher levels other than the first three, there was no swine flu conspiracy, the vaccine was safe, no illuminati, no agenda for a global government. I disagreed and argued my point on all of these subjects.
He has never heard of David Icke!!
By the end of this argument I was in a right twist, but felt like I had given my best with regards to what I know so far.
What is the best way of responding to somebody like this??? without wanting to lose your rag!!

Thanks guys, love you all. xoxoxo;)

Sounds like you exchanged some vague ideas rather than had a debate. If your research leads you to believe that there's something to these conspiracies, then it ought to take the same amount of research for anyone else to reach the same conclusion. You're not going to convince someone of anything in 5 minutes if it took you hours of study yourself.

If someone shows an interest in this stuff then you can recommend some books and stuff. But if someone is a stone-cold fingers-in-the-ears denier, like this fella sounds, then there's not much you can do. And it'd be pretty rude to push it if they're not interested

As for the masonry stuff, why should he know any more than you? If, and it's a big if, masonry has secret levels which extend into a network of secret societies, then why would the average pinny-wearer of middle class masonry have a clue?

[cloudtiger]

You don't know how lucky you are.

Curiosity kills the cat, as they say.

< Except when it is Da Cloud Tiger Himself! A bit burnt but Alive! >
You seem to have high ideals, so do I, unfortunately the world doesn't work that way.

It has no time for idealists. They shrink at bloodletting and balk at machiavellian methodology.

Just take a look at history. Nothing has changed in their methods nothing ever will change in their methods.

You wouldn't want to be part of it honestly and that's not what we are here for anyway.

It may seem a bit defeatist but the reason we are here on earth is in order to get out in one piece and find a heavenly repose when our lives end. Joining the masons end up with you being an indentured servant of unknown superiors for multiple lifetimes.

I'd rather be my own man and be responsible for my own mistakes rather than have to ride a blind horse in the devil's steeplechase.

HEAR! HEAR! EXCELLENT POST.
I liked the GiGi metaphor at the end.

I am not sure it is so easy to get out in one lifetime but for sure we ought to free ourselves of the BS programming and this Dark Prison Planet.

I will pm you soon. Read your homepage. Yes, most interesting this Rebel Life we TruthLoVERS do live.
I am a friend of Vera Susa and all life, good or bad.

This is causing extreme idiocy and feeding your vast ignorance and gross arrogance.
Perhaps, as you don't seem to have recognised these faults when corrected above, you could see your way to not wasting poster's energy and actually Growing Up while refraining from posting. It beggars belief that someone can post on this forum and still be such a pathetic MSM programmed sheep. If you are not a shill perhaps you could apply to EU Intel as you ought to be getting paid, you are doing such a good job of spreading shite.

Have you not read any of David Icke's books?

[keystone]

Democracy isn't even a true form of government. I cant find the vid where Alan Russo explains it but you get 51% of a population deciding what the another half should do. When you have lobby groups from corporations pushing there own POV and combined with the MSM. Then the people loose out.In the 2005 General Election in UK the Labour Party received only 36% of the vote - the lowest any winning party has ever achieved and well short of the 51% you mention above.

Scotland has its Scottish Parliament and Wales its Welsh Assembly both of which were set up by the Labour party during its first term this time around.

In England the only parliament we have (apart from the European parliament) to send our representatives to is Westminster. 60,000 more people voted for the Conservatives in England than for Labour - but the Conservatives won 92 seats less than Labour within England (285 to 193).

There was an overall turnout of 61% - up 2% from 2001. But this still means that 1/3rd of those registered to vote did not do so. More people opted not to vote (38.7%) than voted for Labour (36%).


Cheers

[boots]

In the 2005 General Election in UK the Labour Party received only 36% of the vote - the lowest any winning party has ever achieved and well short of the 51% you mention above.

Scotland has its Scottish Parliament and Wales its Welsh Assembly both of which were set up by the Labour party during its first term this time around.

In England the only parliament we have (apart from the European parliament) to send our representatives to is Westminster. 60,000 more people voted for the Conservatives in England than for Labour - but the Conservatives won 92 seats less than Labour within England (285 to 193).

There was an overall turnout of 61% - up 2% from 2001. But this still means that 1/3rd of those registered to vote did not do so. More people opted not to vote (38.7%) than voted for Labour (36%).


Cheers

It becomes very clear you have an elitist/Illuminated system. The way vote's are allocated to certain areas which are favourable to a particular political party,is not by accident. Some ones pulling the strings, it's not the will of the people.

It's also obvious too that people are disillusioned with politics and government structures which serve a minority only. They not only control the money supply but religion and corporation.

Whats the best way to control people. Money and religion.


.

[onega]

No are you?

Cheerssorry the question wasnt meant 4 u it was more of an outburst at wha t i percieve to be masons better to say nothing as i know so little it seems i missed afew pages so posted after some valid information my apologies again

[keystone]

sorry the question wasnt meant 4 u it was more of an outburst at wha t i percieve to be masons better to say nothing as i know so little'saw right - I'm not the least bit offended. As it happens I am a freemason - just a tad unconventional thats all. Say what you want - its what this place is for. You'll get kudos for some stuff and rocks for other but what the hell?

Cheers

[drc_]

What you mean is keep believing the conspiracies no matter what others will tell you.

No that is not what I mean. That is what you want me to mean maybe. How nice of you to suggest that I promote complete ignorance.

What I mean is people should believe what they believe in, and don't argue about that. It's a waste of energy for everyone. Discussion is great as long as people are willing to listen and take each other seriously.

[grandsecretary]

Genuinely I hope that the conspiracy theorists continue to make unfounded allegations that may then, due to debate, discussion and argument, from time to time, become founded.

What galls is when the same allegation, still unfounded, is constantly repeated.

Please speak up, discuss, debate, move it forward, evaluate: state the new position, discuss, debate, move it forward, and so on and so on.

Otherwise it becomes boring and that is when the exchanges become heated.

"I have my prejudices, don't confuse me with facts" is not acceptable on an intelligent forum such as this one.

I am also frustrated by willful and deliberate misunderstanding being used for disinformation and propaganda purposes.

[keystone]

Genuinely I hope that the conspiracy theorists continue to make unfounded allegations that may then, due to debate, discussion and argument, from time to time, become founded.

What galls is when the same allegation, still unfounded, is constantly repeated.

Please speak up, discuss, debate, move it forward, evaluate: state the new position, discuss, debate, move it forward, and so on and so on.

Otherwise it becomes boring and that is when the exchanges become heated.

"I have my prejudices, don't confuse me with facts" is not acceptable on an intelligent forum such as this one.

I am also frustrated by willful and deliberate misunderstanding being used for disinformation and propaganda purposes.

I see you. :D

[onega]

ok one side accused of projection the other of denial and on it goes.do the masons have any altruistic aims that i can relate to.you seem to be defending a system that is ineffectual at solving the worlds problems. so it looks a little suspicious.

[keystone]

ok one side accused of projection the other of denial and on it goes.do the masons have any altruistic aims that i can relate to.you seem to be defending a system that is ineffectual at solving the worlds problems. so it looks a little suspicious.

Freemasonry isnt about solving the worlds problems. Its about the individual and his personal journey.

Cheers

[grandsecretary]

All postings by me on this thread have been suspended. I am sorry but I am precluded for legal reasons.

Peter Clatworthy
Grand Secretary
Grand Lodge of All England
9th October 2009

[cheeney1]

Freemasonry isnt about solving the worlds problems. Its about the individual and his personal journey.

Cheers

If you want to argue with with Freemasons, just come on this forum, type something profound in the masonic secret society thread




Ie like Freemasons are Necrophiliacs,Blood Drinkers , Kiddie Fuckers, Corrupted Politicans, & high ranking policemen ......Ra Ra Ra Wheres That Wanker Icon :rolleyes:

Oh I forgot ............ They rule The World Not :rolleyes::cool:


Then They Bite Like Grand Goose and it goes on and on and on.zzzzzzzzzzz but in the end this is what happens after 50 pages of Shite

http://www.bjacked.net/LuvToHunt/forums/phpBB2/modules/gallery/albums/album01/Beat_Dead_Horse.jpg

:cool: