Masonic Goat Riding

[stompk]

Have you heard about the Masonic Goat Riding Ritual?

http://i33.tinypic.com/2z5oml0.jpg

http://i37.tinypic.com/30jrafl.jpg

Pictured above is the cover of the 1930 edition of the DeMoulin Bros. & Co. catalog titled "Burlesque and Side Degree Specialties, Paraphernalia and Costumes." We believe that this was the last fraternal supply catalog the DeMoulin Bros. produced, as this company suffered the same fate that many company's did with the onset of the Great Depression.
...
Today, the DeMoulin company survives as one of the largest manufacturers of high quality band uniforms. Below are pictured a few of the catalog pages depicting the various models available for the goat riding tricycles.
.................................................. ..................................................

http://i38.tinypic.com/2gtvwxy.jpg
http://i34.tinypic.com/11izu6g.jpg

These goat carts, made by DeMoulin Bros., were used by Lodges and Fraternal Groups during initiation ceremonies. An inductee would ride the goat blindfolded while being pushed around the room by Lodge members. The DeMoulin Bros. first product was made in 1892 and quickly became a popular item, especially with Woodmen and Odd Fellow Lodges.
.................................................. .................................................. ..
Here is a sample text of a goat riding initiation and how it was used in the Lodge:

The Goat is usually the first "stunt" introduced to a candidate; he is hoodwinked in ante-room and when he enters the Lodge room he is picked up and placed on the Goat and given a ride several times around the Lodge room and dismounted in front of the Chief Officer's Station, where he is presented for instructions.

A NOVEL WAY TO INTRODUCE THE GOAT.

The candidate is hoodwinked in the ante-room and conducted to the Chief Officer's Station.

CONDUCTOR - "Chief Officer, I present you Mr. Who is a candidate seeking the mysteries of our Order. He awaits your instructions."

OFFICER-"My friend, before permitting you to advance into this grand and noble Order, it is my duty to examine you by asking you certain questions, for your answers, which will be considered by the Lodge before starting you on your journey to seek the secrets of our Order."

"What is your name in full?"

"How old are you?"

"Are you single or married?"

(If married) "How many children have you?"

"What is your occupation?"

"Have you always been able to earn a good livelihood?"

"Do you consider yourself to be sound and in good health?"

"Have you a good appetite?"

"Do you eat meat?"

"Do you like butter?"

"Do you like soft or hard butter?"

(Candidate will say hard butter.)

"Very well, we will try and satisfy your appetite. We have the hardest and best butter in this section of the country. This butter has been tried by every candidate introduced, and they can all testify that he is a hard butter. Attendants, bring forth Billie, our hard butter, and administer some of his good qualities to our candidate."

(The Goat is brought in and the candidate is mounted and given a ride around the Lodge room, and finally returned and dismounted in front of Officer's Station, and the following is introduced if desired:)

OFFICER-"Well, sir, how do you like our butter?"

(Candidate is liable to say it's all right.)

OFFICER-"Now, my friend, you said, I believe, that you liked meat any old way. I am glad to know that you do, because we have an obligation in the way of a meat test which I will have to administer to you."


Now as crazy as it sounds, these goats riders are real.

http://i38.tinypic.com/w1ehcw.jpg
http://i35.tinypic.com/244d06t.jpg


http://i37.tinypic.com/fyq0zk.jpg

http://i35.tinypic.com/30c55yg.jpg
http://i34.tinypic.com/2r6e36h.jpg

Now, I was banned from ATS (Above Top Secret) for
posting this info, so the Masons definitely don't want
it out there. I'm going to plaster it all over the internet though

More goodies to come.

[stompk]

http://i35.tinypic.com/9zpf7.gif

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AAa375C_FOA

http://i34.tinypic.com/14imkg8.jpg

http://i36.tinypic.com/35n96vp.jpg

http://i37.tinypic.com/6qfjhf.jpg

More to come.

Images taken from
http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/masonicmuseum/goat_riding_tricycle.htm

[bluehorseman]

He he he

[stevepenny]

He he he

Waht a complete load of tosh!!!!!!!!!!!!! Another typical anti-mason theme that has been dealt with many many times before.

[kweli]

Waht a complete load of tosh!!!!!!!!!!!!! Another typical anti-mason theme that has been dealt with many many times before.

Oh.. I don't know. I found stompk's posts and link highly amusing and interesting. I take it we are still allowed to form our own opinions on here?



When Father Rode the Goat
Author Unknown

The house is full of arcana, and mystery profound;
We do not dare to run about or make the slightest sound.

We leave the big piano shut and do not strike a note;
the doctor's been here seven times since father rode the goat.

He joined the lodge a week ago; Got in at 4:00 a.m. ----
And sixteen brethren brought him home, though he says that he brought them.

His wrist was sprained and one big rip had rent his Sunday coat ----
There must have been a lively time when father rode the goat.

He's resting on the couch today! And practicing his signs ----
The hailing signal, the working grip, and other monkeyshines;

He mutters passwords 'neath his breath, And other things he'll quote ----
They surely had an evening's work when father rode the goat.

He has a gorgeous uniform, all gold and red and blue ----
A hat with plumes and yellow braid, And golden badges too.

But, somehow, when we mention it, he wears a look so grim;
we wonder if he rode the goat ---- or if the goat rode him!

Lol...

[moon monkey]

If the goat riding thing is true then it can only be a positive thing. A gentlemanly rodeo with fine dining and wine to follow.

Splendid !:D

[grandsecretary]

The goat riding ceremony as you call it is, of course, not a Masonic ceremony at all. It was what some in America considered to be "fun for the boys".

I don't agree. I find it vulgar, childish, boorish behaviour, offensive and irreligious too.

G O A T is a play on words, an anagram which was popular amongst "gentlemen" in days gone by.

G O A T is an angram (well almost) of G A O T U meaning Great Architect of the Universe, the Moderns Masonic God.

With its implications, quite disgusting.

[stompk]

I call Bullshit that this is seen many times before. I've been researching Masons for years, and until a few days ago, I had never seen this before. Wait till I make my youtube video on this.

Some more "fun" Masonic Gaymes

http://i37.tinypic.com/2nkp161.jpg

http://i35.tinypic.com/334mekk.jpg

http://i37.tinypic.com/xeq2r7.jpg
Cowbells hanging from your balls? Grand Poobah
prodding them?

No wonder they keep their rituals secret.

I'm impressed the see a member of UGLE posting
here. Must have hit a nerve. Good, you Satanist
F$%#

How's the Queen, head of all Satanism?

[phildee3]

Goat riding is good.

It symbolises the subduing of the evil one.

A true mason rides the goat at least once
(it must be a real goat though).

[kweli]

The goat riding ceremony as you call it is, of course, not a Masonic ceremony at all. It was what some in America considered to be "fun for the boys".

I don't agree. I find it vulgar, childish, boorish behaviour, offensive and irreligious too.

G O A T is a play on words, an anagram which was popular amongst "gentlemen" in days gone by.

G O A T is an angram (well almost) of G A O T U meaning Great Architect of the Universe, the Moderns Masonic God.

With its implications, quite disgusting.

I agree with you there GS. The mind boggles! But these publications/paraphernalia are very real hey? No wonder folk are so suspicious of the the masonic fraternity - they've brought it upon themselves.

[stompk]

On a poster, about an 18" X 24", there was depicted a candidate for the third degree I guess, dressed for initiation, and riding a goat. I wonder if anyone took the time to explain to him the symbolism of the goat, or even if anyone knew the meaning. The goat has been used negatively in many anti-Masonic writings, and is sometimes thought of as a symbol of Satan. I have even heard that it represented "raising the devil" by some Masonic Brothers. It has been said that the star used in the Order of Eastern Star represents Satan, because of the outline of its inverted position "looking" like a goat's head. Ride on candidate!

In my own Lodge some enterprising member brought a live goat to a raising for emphasis, and it made a great impression on the candidates as well as the members and more especially me. I thought 'riding the goat' was just a fun part of Masonic initiations, but it caught my attention that night in Little Rock, Arkansas. Today, I'm glad I was there to see the goat and take part in the initiation or raising. It started me on a quest to seek biblical meaning of the Masonic Lodge and its various symbols and emblems. It was a journey that has lasted almost thirty-five years, and I have seen many symbols and emblems in those years.

http://arkphagrandlodge.com/show_know.htm

[phildee3]

The goat riding ceremony as you call it is, of course, not a Masonic ceremony at all.



Get that!
A fake mason calling real masons fake!

Of course it is!

[91181]

Have you heard about the Masonic Goat Riding Ritual?

http://i33.tinypic.com/2z5oml0.jpg

http://i37.tinypic.com/30jrafl.jpg



Now as crazy as it sounds, these goats riders are real.

http://i38.tinypic.com/w1ehcw.jpg
http://i35.tinypic.com/244d06t.jpg


http://i37.tinypic.com/fyq0zk.jpg

http://i35.tinypic.com/30c55yg.jpg
http://i34.tinypic.com/2r6e36h.jpg

Now, I was banned from ATS (Above Top Secret) for
posting this info, so the Masons definitely don't want
it out there. I'm going to plaster it all over the internet though

More goodies to come.



Thanks for sharing mate.pmsl .:D

[kweli]

Thanks for sharing mate , i cant stop laughing..:D

Me neither, i found it highly amusing. :D

[stompk]

Absolutely.

All the problems in the world, can be traced back to Freemasonry, and their anti-God religion.

Don't like bankers, blame Freemasonry.


Liber Capricornus
The Symbolism of the Goat
by Eugene W. Plawiuk, Master Mason

Presented to Norwood Lodge No.90 A.F.& A.M. G.R.A.
September 3 1991 C.E.

Need I relate the most obvious use of the goat known to all Master Masons? The Scapegoat. An animal who leads the others to slaughter now commonly used to reier to the unwitting victim of some malice. It is obvious that the initiate stands in for Hiram Abiff and takes his blows accordingly. In referring to the goat perhaps we are unconsciously warning the entered apprentice of his ultimate end in his soujourn through the Degrees.

[stompk]

The Significance of the GOAT (God Of All Things)


Schnoebellan then reveals the foul pagan origins of this blasphemous ceremony, stating: "In the many initiations I observed or actually took part in, I saw a lot of variations of this kind of fraternity house humour. The only common thing in the many jokes and disturbing allusions was this business about riding the goat. That is interesting when one recalls Albert Pike's teaching about the he-goat of the witches' sabbat, and the way witches in the Middle Ages demonstrated their allegiance to Satan. They had to consent to sexual intercourse with 'the goat'; (usually a high priest rigged up with a goat's head, but occasionally a real demonic form which looked goat-like). Or they had to perform the so-called osculum infamum (obscene kiss) which involved kissing the goat's backside to show their fealty to Satan" (Beyond The Light p. 87).

The 'Romanistic' Knights Templar were known to have introduced such practices into their order after the Crusades had been completed. They were widely accused of practising black magic, blasphemy and homosexuality during their many initiations. Such wickedness was too much even for Rome who began to persecute the Templars. When interrogated the Templars told of strange occultic rituals wherein they worshipped a goat-headed demonic apparition called 'the Baphomet'.

This manifestation, 'the Baphomet', seems to have been regarded with idolatrous reverence amongst the Knights Templar. Some authorities on the subject associate 'the Baphomet' with the Arabic abufihamet, pronounced in Moorish Spanish as bufihmat. This name meaning 'Father of understanding' or 'Father of Wisdom'. The word 'father' in Arabic is taken to imply 'source'. The 'source' in this case being clearly the devil.

Secret societies' obsession with the goat is most striking when one looks at what the Lord says in Scripture: "When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory: And before him shall be gathered all nations: and he shall separate them one from another, as a shepherd divideth his sheep from the goats: And he shall set the sheep on his right hand, but the goats on the left. Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world" (Matthew 25:31-34).

http://www.nireland.com/evangelicaltruth/chapter6.html

[grandsecretary]

I agree with you there GS. The mind boggles! But these publications/paraphernalia are very real hey? No wonder folk are so suspicious of the the masonic fraternity - they've brought it upon themselves.

Totally self inflicted. No excuses, and no complaints.

[grandsecretary]

http://arkphagrandlodge.com/show_know.htm

Oh dear.

[grandsecretary]

Get that!
A fake mason calling real masons fake!

Of course it is!

Talking of goats, it appears, and it bleats! :)

[stompk]

http://i34.tinypic.com/21cgwew.jpg

http://cgi.ebay.com/ARE-YOU-A-MASON-MASONIC-GOAT-POSTCARD_W0QQitemZ370259710938QQcmdZViewItemQQptZL H_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item563532d3da&_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116

[bkiddo151]

Thanks for sharing mate.pmsl .:D

Great Post. Keep it coming. They are afraid of us because we win in the end!

Peace.

[bkiddo151]

http://arkphagrandlodge.com/show_know.htm

Hey STOMPK,

Keep it coming cause they're afraid of us. I know that they are becuse we win in the end and they know it.

That's why they said "let us eat, drink and be merry for to-morrow we die!"

Peace

[drakul]

http://i34.tinypic.com/21cgwew.jpg

http://cgi.ebay.com/ARE-YOU-A-MASON-MASONIC-GOAT-POSTCARD_W0QQitemZ370259710938QQcmdZViewItemQQptZL H_DefaultDomain_0?hash=item563532d3da&_trksid=p3286.m20.l1116

Fascinating. How do you come up with all this stuff? Interesting that people 100 years ago were much more aware of the Masons than people are now.

[phildee3]

Interesting that people 100 years ago were much more aware of the Masons than people are now.



There was a huge interst in esotericism/occultism back then. That's when the term "new age" was coined.

[size_of_light]

The goat riding ceremony as you call it is, of course, not a Masonic ceremony at all. It was what some in America considered to be "fun for the boys".

I don't agree. I find it vulgar, childish, boorish behaviour, offensive and irreligious too.

G O A T is a play on words, an anagram which was popular amongst "gentlemen" in days gone by.

G O A T is an angram (well almost) of G A O T U meaning Great Architect of the Universe, the Moderns Masonic God.

With its implications, quite disgusting.

Totally self inflicted. No excuses, and no complaints.

Growing up here in Australia, I always thought Masons and their alleged 'fondness' for goats was nothing more than a derogatory joke.

Just to clarify:

Are you saying that the story is based in fact, and that it's origin goes back to some Americans (who also happened to be Masons) who actually did 'ride' goats, because 'goat' is a (near) anagram for Grand Architect of the Universe?

[stompk]

The significance of riding the goat can only be associated with Satanism


Bokkenrijders (meaning ‘buckriders’ or ‘goatriders’) were a devilish gang of highwaymen, who would fly through the nightly sky on their goats.

They made a pact with the devil and swore on “the dead hand”. They would appeared out of nothing, flying on their bucks, with eyes glowing in the dark then disappeared into thin air.
http://i38.tinypic.com/jtlbo6.jpg

http://www.monstropedia.org/index.php?title=Bokkenrijder

[91181]

Hey STOMPK,

Keep it coming cause they're afraid of us. I know that they are becuse we win in the end and they know it.

That's why they said "let us eat, drink and be merry for to-morrow we die!"

Peace


Oh definatly , i can fel it in the air man, i just pray im alive to see the meek inherit the earth, i bet blairs mansion could hold one hell of a party :D


No goats , of course:D

[stompk]

Duplicate post

[grandsecretary]

Oh definatly , i can fel it in the air man, i just pray im alive to see the meek inherit the earth, i bet blairs mansion could hold one hell of a party :D


No goats , of course:D

You are absolutely wrong, wrong, wrong! The goat is frightened of Blair. Far to ugly for him, and so is the goat! ;)

[deathcultreject]

The goat riding ceremony as you call it is, of course, not a Masonic ceremony at all. It was what some in America considered to be "fun for the boys".

I don't agree. I find it vulgar, childish, boorish behaviour, offensive and irreligious too.

G O A T is a play on words, an anagram which was popular amongst "gentlemen" in days gone by.

G O A T is an angram (well almost) of G A O T U meaning Great Architect of the Universe, the Moderns Masonic God.

With its implications, quite disgusting.

Thanks for setting us straight on that, but are you sure that it's not just a little bit funny?

I know I chuckled.

Perhaps it's because I'd never seen it before.

[grandsecretary]

It just makes me embarrassed for the male of the species, the men not the goat. I know I sound like a miserable old **** but it is low life activity isn't it? Am I wrong? Oh well.

[adzboarder]

haha great thread!

I love that the masons are all going, "NO NO, its ER, NO, not Masons!!"

Why the FUCK does it have the square and compass all over it then?

Caught with their pants down and not for the first time.

GREAT WORK Stompk! :)

[stompk]

Kudos to the ICKE forum.

I posted this on ATS, and it received a lot of attention.

Within two hours, the Masonic moderator Mirthful Me
completely deleted the thread, and banned me, with
no explanation.

[adzboarder]

ATS Is a pile of cointelpro shite, their loss is our gain.

KUDOS to you my friend. :)

[deathcultreject]

It just makes me embarrassed for the male of the species, the men not the goat. I know I sound like a miserable old **** but it is low life activity isn't it? Am I wrong? Oh well.

Not really, you've got a misrepresented tradition to protect.

I'm just curious about negative responses to irreverance.

It's something I don't really understand, but it would be useful for peace if people understood it better.

[kweli]

It just makes me embarrassed for the male of the species, the men not the goat. I know I sound like a miserable old **** but it is low life activity isn't it? Am I wrong? Oh well.

Once again.. I appreciate your straightforwadness GS. Please note the answers/responses we usually get from the 'freemasons' around here. Is there any wonder that folk get riled and thus ridicule the 'brotherhood'?

Some call you a fake on here, for all I know you may be, but In my opinion you've been a breath of fresh air, and you've always answered my questions to full satisfaction. Although, I haven't finished yet. ;) would love to meet up with you one day Peter, we live quite close by after all?

[stompk]

Here's a couple more "jokes" the Masons use(d)

http://i34.tinypic.com/dcro0x.jpg

http://i35.tinypic.com/358w393.jpg

Notice, the number for the Devils costume is D777

Surely a nod to Crowley.


Liber 777 Vel Prolegoma Symbolica Ad Systemam Sceptico-Mysticae Viae Explicande, Fundamentum Hieroglyphicum Sanctissimorum Scientiae Summae is designated a "Class B" document by Crowley. The title refers to a lightning flash descending the diagrammatic worlds, the zig-zag pattern suggesting three diminishing 7s. It consists of roughly 191 columns, with each row corresponding to a specific Sephirah or path on the Tree of Life for a total of 35 rows and is used for a quick reference for corresponding mnemonics and factors of religion for use in magick (for instance, an evocation of Venus would have one looking across that column for the colour corresponding to Venus that will be the colour of his or her robe, and then Venusian incense, etc.).

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/777_and_other_Qabalistic_writings_of_Aleister_Crow ley

But the Masons will swear up and down they have nothing to do
with Crowley.

Lying sacks of shite, I say.

http://i34.tinypic.com/nmg3eq.jpg

[mike martin]

More to come.

Images taken from
http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/masonicmuseum/goat_riding_tricycle.htm

Yes quite of course what you haven't shared with your tame audience is this bit: http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/masonicmuseum/lodge_goat_book.htm which quite suprisingly says:

The humorous idea that riding the goat constitutes a part of the ceremonies of initiation in a Masonic Lodge is just a Joke and has its real origin in the superstition of antiquity. The old Greeks and Romans portrayed their mystical god Pan in horns and hoof and shaggy hide and called him goat-footed. When the demonology of the classics was adopted and modified by the early Christians, Pan gave way to Satan, who naturally inherited his attributes; so that to the common mind the Devil was represented by a he-goat, and his best known marks were the horns, the beard, and the cloven hoofs. Then came the witch stories of the Middle Ages, and the belief in the witch orgies, where, it was said, the Devil appeared riding on a goat. These orgies of the witches, where, amid fearfully blasphemous ceremonies, they practiced initiation into their Satanic Rites, became, to the vulgar and illiterate, the type of the Masonic Mysteries; for, as Doctor Oliver says, it was in England a common belief that the Freemasons were accustomed in their Lodges "to raise the Devil." So the riding of the goat, which was believed to be practiced by the witches, was transferred to the Freemasons; and the sayings and jokes about it remain to this day, although the belief has long since died out. The Lodge Goat and Goat Rides book above plays on the joke of riding the goat and plays on the humorous side of Lodge life.

To see an actual Goat Riding Tricycle (click here)

A special "Thanks" to Brother Mike Nickels from the Lone Star State of Texas for sharing the pictures and descriptions of his book "The Lodge Goat and Goat Rides" and his "goat paperweight" with our museum! Thanks Mike!"

As to the Prince Hall bloke, well who knows, maybe it does happen in Arkansas, I've never been there. It doesn't happen in England or Scotland or Ireland.

Mike

[stompk]

Yes quite of course what you haven't shared with your tame audience is this bit: http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/masonicmuseum/lodge_goat_book.htm which quite suprisingly says:



As to the Prince Hall bloke, well who knows, maybe it does happen in Arkansas, I've never been there. It doesn't happen in England or Scotland or Ireland.

Mike

I'm supposed to believe a Freemason?

Give me a break.

Even if it is a joke, it's a sick joke.

It shows what kind of Baphomet worshipping religion Freemasonry really is.

The sick thing is, these people are police, judges, bankers, politicians, etc.

Quite frankly, I find the people who participate in this religion and protect it,
well, disgusting.

[keystone]

Me neither, i found it highly amusing. :DMe too - always have done. :D

Cheers

[keystone]

Now, I was banned from ATS (Above Top Secret) for posting this info,Oh balls you can get banned from ATS for all sorts of silly things and minor infractions. Crap forum anyway.

I call Bullshit that this is seen many times before. I've been researching Masons for years, and until a few days ago, I had never seen this before. Wait till I make my youtube video on this.I'm seeing your bullshit and raising you two very large oxen turds. Just because you haven't found it before dosn't mean it hasn't been around before. There was a looong thread about it here, oh about 2 years ago but I can't be arsed to locate it for you. Do a search.

No wonder they keep their rituals secret.Wrong - buy them on Fleabay you can.

I posted this on ATS, and it received a lot of attention. Within two hours, the Masonic moderator Mirthful Me completely deleted the thread, and banned me, with no explanation.Mmm interesting. The admin over there admits there are masons on the moderating team but they are very much in the minority and says they do not (are not allowed to???) moderate the Secret Societies section. Not doubting you but are you sure your correct about this particular mod?

ATS Is a pile of cointelpro shiteI wouldn't go that far - well OK perhaps I would. :D

Cheers

[keystone]

The goat riding ceremony as you call it is, of course, not a Masonic ceremony at all. It was what some in America considered to be "fun for the boys".

I don't agree. I find it vulgar, childish, boorish behaviour, offensive and irreligious too.

G O A T is a play on words, an anagram which was popular amongst "gentlemen" in days gone by.

G O A T is an angram (well almost) of G A O T U meaning Great Architect of the Universe, the Moderns Masonic God.

With its implications, quite disgusting.I believe these silly games ARE played in Masonic Lodges the USA and you are correct that it is childish. It is certainly NOT a masonic ceremony in the UK and in the US is a comic side show. Thats not the same as your outright denial, however.

I do hope you do not mean your definitive statement that G O A T is an angram (well almost) of G A O T U meaning Great Architect of the Universe, the Moderns Masonic God.It may be so in your opinion/interpretation in which case you should qualify the statement IMHO. This is the first time I have EVER heard that suggestion and to speak authoritively but without authority is misleading. Proof please.

....the Moderns Masonic God.BS.

Cheers

[keystone]

It just makes me embarrassed for the male of the species, the men not the goat. I know I sound like a miserable old **** but it is low life activity isn't it?Yep.

Am I wrong?Nope.

Cheers

[keystone]

I'm supposed to believe a Freemason?

Give me a break.Well when he points out that the site that you have quoted says exactly what he's quoted he's not asking him to believe him he's asking you to believe the site you have used as evidence for you case. Give me a break!

Even if it is a joke, it's a sick joke.Yes you are correct.

It shows what kind of Baphomet worshipping religion Freemasonry really is.Not for one microsecond. Thats pretty poor research to draw such a conclusion.

Cheers

[keystone]

They are afraid of us because we win in the end!

Keep it coming cause they're afraid of us. I know that they are becuse we win in the end and they know it.

So who is they and who is we?

That's why they said "let us eat, drink and be merry for to-morrow we die!"Who is they?

Cheers

[keystone]

Growing up here in Australia, I always thought Masons and their alleged 'fondness' for goats was nothing more than a derogatory joke.Growing up in the UK I thoght the same thing and I have never seen any evidence of this "activity" in the UK.

Just to clarify:

Are you saying that the story is based in fact, and that it's origin goes back to some Americans (who also happened to be Masons) who actually did 'ride' goats, because 'goat' is a (near) anagram for Grand Architect of the Universe?He hasn't clarified and I've asked the same question. I hope he doesn't mean that as a matter of fact.

Cheers.

[stompk]

It didn't help that some early ritual books from the fraternity referred to God as "God of All Things" and abbreviated it as G.O.A.T. That was quickly changed, and God is now referred to by Masons by the acronym G.A.O.T.U., for Grand Architect of the Universe.

http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/debunking-common-myths-about-freemasonry.html

Satisfied?
:rolleyes:

[keystone]

http://www.dummies.com/how-to/content/debunking-common-myths-about-freemasonry.html

Satisfied?
:rolleyes:Errm - now let me think - No! Why? - because its hardly authoratitive. However if it is true then GS is quite correct. Lets find some proper proof.

Cheers

[kweli]

Growing up in the UK I thoght the same thing and I have never seen any evidence of this "activity" in the UK.

He hasn't clarified and I've asked the same question. I hope he doesn't mean that as a matter of fact.

Cheers.

Give over! You're trying to tell me you've never rode a goat? :D

Nah.. sorry, i'm afraid even I can't blame freemasons for some nefarious activities that happened so long ago. Have you seen some of the 'sports' that we the 'profane' indulged in way back then? I'm afraid this isn't the expose you all wished for.

[stompk]

It did not help that some of the early Masonic ritual books referred to God as ‘God of All Things’ and abbreviated it as G.O.A.T. That was quickly changed, and God is now referred to by the acronym G.A.O.T.U. which means Great Architect of the Universe.

http://www.masonicnetwork.org/blog/2009/myths-misconceptions-and-conspiracy-theories-surrounding-freemasonry/

It's a canned response to anti-masons like me.

But it's all over Masonic websites.

Good enough??

[keystone]

Give over! You're trying to tell me you've never rode a goat? :D Well - perhaps when I was 2. :D

Nah.. sorry, i'm afraid even I can't blame freemasons for some nefarious activities that happened so long ago. Have you seen some of the 'sports' that we the 'profane' indulged in way back then? I'm afraid this isn't the expose you all wished for.Thats the trouble with this great "revelation" that the OP is having together with certain acolytes basking in the reflected glory. Some of the stuff that is being pushed as evidence is no more than 19th and early 20th century versions of Private Eye. Oh to be around in a 100 years time when someone digs out an old copy of PE and presents the contents as incontravertible fact. Ha Ha.

Cheers

[keystone]

It's a canned response to anti-masons like me.

But it's all over Masonic websites.

Good enough??Sorry nope. Its one site just quoting another. It is actually quite a serious matter, to me at any rate.

Incidentally - why are you so anti? Oops sorry - wrong thread. Another time perhaps.

Cheers

Edit: IMHO "Canned responses" in either direction are not conducive to expanding knowledge of the subject. Thus it just becomes a pissing contest. Waste of time, space and bandwidth.

[stompk]

What makes you think the Masons have changed their ways?

Have you seen this pic?

http://i35.tinypic.com/2vnjos7.jpg
http://www.imss.fi.it/pompei/tecnica/ete7.html
From 30 BC Pompeii

The Masonic religion has been around for a long time.

It's all about being against God.

If you can't see that, then carry on. Don't be surprised
when they want you to get the mark though.

[keystone]

Have you seen this pic?We are going off topic if we are not careful but no I haven't. My German and Italian is NOT so sood (at 01.30 in the morning anyway so I'm going to bed in a moment) but I don't see a masonic reference in the text. Do you?

The Masonic religion has been around for a long time.Is it a religion?

It's all about being against God. Whose God? What makes you think your view and concept of God is the same as mine or anyone elses?

If you can't see that, then carry on.No from where I am right now I can't - but I'm prepared to be educated. Never stop learning.

Don't be surprised when they want you to get the mark though.Sorry not with you - must be the hour. I'm off for some sleep. 'Night.

Cheers

[stompk]

We are going off topic if we are not careful but no I haven't. My German and Italian is NOT so sood (at 01.30 in the morning anyway so I'm going to bed in a moment) but I don't see a masonic reference in the text. Do you?

Is it a religion?

Whose God? What makes you think your view and concept of God is the same as mine or anyone elses?
No from where I am right now I can't - but I'm prepared to be educated. Never stop learning.

Sorry not with you - must be the hour. I'm off for some sleep. 'Night.

Cheers

You seem like a decent person, and I'm not here to bash your beliefs, unless your a Mason. If you are a Mason, you're not being honest.

Otherwise, I'm sorry if you are offended by my thread. Many have found it to be interesting, if anything.

Isn't this a conspiracy THEORY forum??

[decim]

Don key Riders.

Fulcanelli emphasized that the ass which served in the Feast of Fools had once trodden upon the streets of Jerusalem. He said that it had walked the streets with its sabot. I know that sabot means both hoof and wooden shoe - but I wonder if there is some arcane meaning in the word which will throw more light on the Feast of Fools?' He nodded. 'Yes, sabot is a most interesting word.

But to understand its hidden meaning, you must understand also the secrets in that pagan replay of the ass's entrance into Jerusalem, and the secret meaning in the ass itself. In the anarchic Feast of Fools, which is sometimes called the Feast of the Donkey, the ass is led through the portals of a church, or cathedral, into the nave, in a bawdy imitation of the entry into Jerusalem.10 In the prayers and blasphemies which follow, in the place of the Amen, the folk present bray like asses.

This might seem like sacrilege - even bearing in mind that mockery and lewdness was the order of the day during the Feast of Fools. Even so, we must ask, Did this sacrilege have an arcane significance? 'In Hebrew, the male ass is called the hamor, the she-ass athon. When, in the Bible, Zechariah prophesies that the Lord will come riding on an ass (a prophecy fulfilled in the entry into Jerusalem), he uses the word athon.11

This is usually taken as a sign of meekness - of how Christ was reluctant to appear in the guise of a king. However, there are other ways of looking at this story. Since there was a proscription in Israel against riding horses (a proscription seemingly broken by Solomon), the ass had a different status from that of modern times: it was certainly not a lowly creature, but was used even by kings and wealthy men and women. Indeed, from athon is derived the plural athona, which always indicated someone who was mighty or rich. No doubt this explains some of the excitement felt by alchemists (many of whom read Hebrew as a necessary qualification to their art) at the story of the ass, for athona is (in Green Language terms) too close to the alchemical athanor not to arouse interest.

The athanor was a self-feeding furnace, used by alchemists to maintain a steady temperature. Not surprisingly, alchemical images of Saturn, or of solar 'kings' (words which denote initiate grades), sitting on ovens, are found in the alchemical works. 'The meaning of the Hebrew word which gave us "Jerusalem" has always been disputed by scholars. However, in the secret language of the Cabbala - the esoteric law of the Jews - it means "Foundation of Peace".12

This throws some light on the importance accorded the Temple of Solomon, which was supposed to have been originally located in Jerusalem. When, in the Festum Fatuorum, or Feast of Fools, the donkey (sometimes it was an ass) was ridden through the archway of a church or cathedral, this was regarded as the equivalent of riding into Jerusalem, into peace.


The Zelator Mark Hedsel click scribd (http://www.scribd.com/doc/10314838/The-Zelator)

[keystone]

You seem like a decent person, and I'm not here to bash your beliefs, unless your a Mason.Well thank you for that.

If you are a Mason, you're not being honest.Oh dear. Thats extremely judgemental. Are you saying that how you appoach me depends on the label on the outside of a box in which you put me? So if I say yes I'm a mason you'll say "well you are a liar anyway". If I am and say I'm not just to please you that would also be lying and that would be less than honest, If I say I am when I'm not just to wind you up that ill be equally dishonest. The only combination that works for you is If I'm not and I say I'm not. Hmm - not very equitable is it? So I'm damned if I do and damned if I don't. Surely you should judge every single person on how you interact with them? You'll find that I'm extremely honest - brutally so on occasions. OK then lets test your reactions now. Yes I am a mason. Am I telling the truth? Am I lying? Does it matter - no it doesn't actually.

Otherwise, I'm sorry if you are offended by my thread.Oh I'm not offended by your thread at all. I find the subject intensely amusing in more ways that one.

Isn't this a conspiracy THEORY forum??Yep. :D

Cheers

[bluehorseman]

Waht a complete load of tosh!!!!!!!!!!!!! Another typical anti-mason theme that has been dealt with many many times before.

Oh come on Steve penny its all a bit of a joke isn't it?

[grandsecretary]

Growing up in the UK I thoght the same thing and I have never seen any evidence of this "activity" in the UK.

He hasn't clarified and I've asked the same question. I hope he doesn't mean that as a matter of fact.

Cheers.

Not ignoring the question I have just started to collect source references GOAT/GAOTU.

However, this article was written in 1936:

http://www.themasonictrowel.com/Articles/Symbolism/general_files/the_masonic_goat.htm

[stevepenny]

Oh come on Steve penny its all a bit of a joke isn't it?

Yes it is a bit of a joke, it just depends on how it is being put over. I remember making an off-hand comments on a Christian Forum only to be hauled over the coals by the Mods who made it clear that it wasn't funny.

So yes, it is funny if it was intended that way; if it was made in a derogatory way then NO it is not funny.

[stevepenny]

Not ignoring the question I have just started to collect source references GOAT/GAOTU.

However, this article was written in 1936:

http://www.themasonictrowel.com/Articles/Symbolism/general_files/the_masonic_goat.htm

We still use the phrase 'Falling off the goat' in the EA degree. It is used to reinforce the obligation.

[grandsecretary]

And here is a paper with the relevant source references:

Liber Capricornus - The Symbolism of the Goat
by Eugene W. Plawiuk, Master Mason, September 3 1991

Our first experience upon entering the Lodge as apprentices is to be warned about the Goat. Even before we are informed of 'in whom we should put our trust', we are given knowing looks followed by such comments as; " he's going to get the goat" or " you are going to ride the goat" or even "look out for the goat". It is a good thing that we are informed that we place our trust in God, since some poor unfortunate entered apprentice could understandably be forgiven for replying; "In the Goat".

The origin of this humorous initiatory jest about the Goat is shrouded by the veils of time. Several Older brethren I have conferred with seem to have no idea of where or when it originated. It could have originally been imported from America by that practical joker and fellow Mason; Benjamin Franklin. Or it could be a unique recent development of post World War II Masonry.

Certainly I can find no references to the Goat or even "riding the Goat" in Mackey's Masonic Encyclopedia, Duncan's Ritual, Morals and Dogma by Albert Pike or even Free Masonry and its Etiquette by William Preston Campbell-Everden. Even such anti-Masonic writers as Walton Hannah (Darkness Visible and Christian by Degree) make no reference to it, and it would certainly be something he would not be loathe to use to slander the Craft.

Thus with such sparse reference sources available we could easily dismiss our Goat as a simple joke, a hangover from those other fraternities that abound on college and university campuses across this great nation. In fact a bit of school boy prank amongst pals.

Thus dismissed as a bit of tom-foolery I wouldn't have much of a paper to present this evening. Yet can we dismiss our ancient friend who has played such a great role in the myths and legends, of all religions and cultures of Western Europe? The Goat dates back to the very earliest primordial memories of Man. And perhaps even used as a joke within the Lodge it would do us well to look at him as a totem or symbol of the Great Work. In fact if you will bear with me I think I shall be able to prove to you that, using the training we are recommended as Fellow Craft Masons, we can find that the humble Goat too reflects the truth of Masonry "veiled in allegory and illustrated by symbols".

The Goat is known to all of us through the ancient science of Astrology first developed by the Chaldeans, or as they are commonly known; Babylonians. The Goat symbolizes male fertility, and is known, to even those who peruse the daily astrology columns of the local newspaper, as representing the astrological sign of Capricorn; Dec. 22 to January 22. Capricorn is a combination of both a Goat and and a fish. According to J.E.. Cirlot in his Dictionary of Symbols; this dual aspect refers to the dual tendencies of life towards the abyss ( or water) " or chaos of the beginning of time, and " the heights or mountains " or order and malkuth (the earth) as symbolized by the goat aspect.

In fact the very same Babylonians who gave us this symbol of Capricorn and the science of Astrology were the first Temple builders, and the goat for them symbolised the essence of the Temple or Lodge. An animal usually found climbing in the mountains. Thus from the first ziggurats to the Temple of Solomon even to later Churches the Goat was seen as symbol of Man striving to reach God through his building of Temples that represented mountains. Since in all religions Gods abode is symbolized by mountains.

What a better symbol to attribute to our own striving to understand the G.A.O.T.U. than a Goat. And here too we find an anagram for Goat.

According to a research monograph on the Dionysian Artificers and Early Masonry edited by Manly P. Hall, the symbolism of the goat relates to the prechristian God Pan, Dionysius. The Goat-God was accepted by the later Greek Mystery Schools as the symbol of the Temple Builders. In fact the Dionysian Artificers was such a mystery school. They viewed practical Temple Construction as a source of understanding the mystery of Nature and God; thus being one of the early esoteric schools from which Masonry has inherited certain symbols and teachings. Most specifically this Greek Mystery School developed the Ionic Column which are introduced to us in the Fellow Craft degree. Once again this column which acted as the corner stone of Greek Architecture literally holds up the temple; the very support for the Mountain or home of God.

The Ionic Column is a later development over the Doric, having developed in the 7th Century B.C., it allowed for more filagree work in its base and at its top. It is seen as being more feminine than the masculine Doric Column.

"The Dionysian Artificers or architects were an association of scientific men, who were incorporated by command of the Kings of Pergamus into a corporate body. They had the city of Teas given to them. The members of this association were intimately connected with the Dionysian mysteries, were distinguished from the uninitiated inhabitants of Teos by their Science and by words and signs by which they could recognize their Brethern of the Order. Like Freemasons they were divided into Lodges which were characterized by different names. Such is the nature of that association of architects, who erected those splendid edifices in Ionia, whose ruins even afford us instructions, while they excite our surprise. If it be possible to prove the identity of any two societies, from the coincidence of their external forms, we are authorized to conclude that the Fraternity of Ionian architects and the Fraternity of Freemasons are exactly the same" says Dr. R. Swineburne Clymer in his book: Ancient Mystic Oriental Masonry.

Besides representing the Temple or Home of the gods, the goat represents the active male sexual or fertility aspect of nature. As Capricorn he rules the returning sun, from the darkness of winter solstice. In the sign of the Goat/Capricorn the sun begins to resume its ascent towards the spring Equinox. As well the goat horn is a hallow phallic symbol, represented even today as the cup of plenty or cornucopia which we see represented in the Lodge.

Says J. E. Cirlot; " In mythology it was the goat Almathea who fed the infant Jupiter an milk. Given that the general symbolism of the horn is strength, and that the goat has maternal implications, and in addition that the shape of the horn (phallic outside and hollow inside) endows it with complex symbolism (including that of the lingam or symbol of generation) it is easy to understand its allegorical use as the horn of abundance. Plobb points out also that the cornucopia is an expression of prosperity deriving from its association with the Zodiacal sign of Capricorn."

The androgenous symbolism of the horn of plenty is typical of the symbolism of the goat in general. While the Greek Goat Gods Pan and Dionysius were male, we look at the goat as an animal in masculine terms while it is both male and female. The identification of the the male goat in by his beard, since both genders have horns. The phrase " by my beard, or " he pulled my beard " as well as the style of beard called a 'goatee' all relate to the goat.

The goat-Gods Pan and Dionysius in Greek mythology represent the forest and unbridled nature; lust in the case of Pan and Drinking, and fertility in the case of Dionysius. Hence from the OED we have the term for a lecherous older man; "you old Goat". Pan is represented as being half human, half goat with horns, and would later be used in medieval times to represent the devil.

Ironically the horns on the head of Michalangelos statue of Moses are also Goat horns, symbolising not the devil but the power of nature and natures God; Fiat Lux. For in the bible it states that Moses was beheld by his people as having two rays of Light springing forth from his head.

"Hark! My Beloved! here he comes, bounding over the mountains, leaping over the hills. My beloved is like a gazelle or a young wild goat."

"My beloved is mine and I am his; he delights in the lilies. While the day is cool and shadows are dispersing, turn my beloved, and show yourself a gazelle or a young wild goat on the hills where cinnamon grows."

" How beautiful you are my dearest, how beautiful! Your eyes behind your veil are like doves, your hair like a flock of goats streaming down Mount Gilead."

The Song of Songs (Which is Solomons).

Herein as well in the Old Testament we find the beautiful love poem which views the goat as symbolizing nature, and fertility as it did in prechristian times. In the Song of Songs both lovers refer to each other as goats. As to be expected since the lovers in this poem are a shepherd and shepherdess herding goats!!! And we have the symbolism of the goats in relationship to sacred mountains or temples. It is enough to mention that this song is known as Solomons who plays such an important role in Freemasonry.

In medieval times clerical knights and military orders made up of priests during the crusades differentiated themselves from regular knights by riding upon goats rather than horses. This tradition can be seen in the Knights Templer who would ride horses but two knights to one horse, thus representing their clerical origins.

Need I relate the most obvious use of the goat known to all Master Masons? The Scapegoat. An animal who leads the others to slaughter now commonly used to reier to the unwitting victim of some malice. It is obvious that the initiate stands in for Hiram Abiff and takes his blows accordingly. In referring to the goat perhaps we are unconsciously warning the entered apprentice of his ultimate end in his soujourn through the Degrees.

As I mentioned earlier the Boat and the Goat-God Pan became equated with the devil in medieval christianity. But to medieval occultists especially Rosicrucians the goat symbolized the elemental energies of the earth, the sign of Saturn and the alchemical element derived therefrom.

The Devil, Tarot Card Number 15 In the Tarat it is the Major Arcana card #15 the Devil, who shows a goat headed deity with a man and women chained to him. The symbolism is that of people who strive for material rather than spiritual gain.

The Goat of Mendes or Baphomet whom the Templars were accused of worshipping is a Goat Headed deity, being formed of both male and female principles, with a Caduceus of Mercury for its phallus. One arm points up and one down , with the latin ' Solve et Coagula' written on them. This is not the christian devil but a symbol of the ancient alchemists representing the fact that nature and natures God is a combination and balance of male and female forces, light and darkness, moisture and dryness. The very principle of Hermes Trismegitus; As Above So Below" is what is symbolized by Baphomet.

Another Goat headed deity worship by the ancient pagan Celtic peoples was Cernnunos the horned god of the Wood. Today in witchcraft covens the goat head is seen to symbolize this ancient deity.

Unfortunately to the those who remain in the dark, these goat deities are seen as something evil rather than as the symbol of the earth, fertility, the prima mater, and the first principle.

Freemasonry in its past like its predecessor the Knights Templar have been accused of being in league with the Devil, being a satanic tool etc. That has arisen from the fact that FreeMasons by their initiation into the Light have been eager to research and study the Mystical symbols of the past and present, without fear or irrational prejudice. In times past of religious persecution and superstition the Mystical Mason has treaded the path of heresy in search of the Light of Truth.

I hope that this paper has afforded us all a broader view of meaning and depth of the symbolism of even something as simple as "our little joke", about the Goat.

BIBLIOGRAPHY:

Weathervane Books 1978
J.E.Cirlot: A Dictionary of Symbols Philosophical Library, NY 1971.
Dr R Swinburne Clymer: Ancient Mystic Oriental Masonry
The Rosicrucians: Their Teachings
The Philosophy of Fire: Philosophocal Pub., PA. 1907 Reprinted by Health research, CA. 1969
Aleister Crowley: 777, Weiser Publishing 1978
Malcolm C. Duncans Ritual of Masonry
Wesley J. Fuerst: Cambridge Bible Commentary:
The Five Scrolls:
Commentary on the Song of Songs: Cambridge University Press 1975
David-Godwin: Cabalistic Encyclopaedia, Llewellyn Publishing 1979
Manly P Hall: ed, The Dionysian Mysteries and Masonry Philosophical Publishing House 1936.
Walton Hannah: Christian by Degree. Britons Pub. Co. 1964
Eliphas Levi: The History of Magic The Key of the Mysteries
Transendental Magic: Rider Publishing 1972
Albert Pike: Morals and Dogma of the Ancient and Accepted
Scottish Rite of Freemasonry, Southern Jurisdiction AASR 1906.
H W Percival: Masonry and its Symbols. The Word Pub. Co. 1952.
W.G. SIBLEY: The Story of Freemasonry: The Lions Paw Club 1913, reprinted Health Research CA. 1968

[stompk]

Well thank you for that.

Yes I am a mason. Am I telling the truth? Am I lying? Does it matter - no it doesn't actually.

Oh I'm not offended by your thread at all. I find the subject intensely amusing in more ways that one.

Yep. :D

Cheers

Of course it matters if your a Mason

Actually, lying is a vital part of freemasonry. . .

"You must conceal all crimes of your brother masons and should you be summoned as a witness against a brother mason be always sure to shield him. . .it may be perjury to do this, it is true, but you're keeping your obligations."

Handbook Of Freemasonry. p183.

[grandsecretary]

Of course it matters if your a Mason

Actually, lying is a vital part of freemasonry. . .

"You must conceal all crimes of your brother masons and should you be summoned as a witness against a brother mason be always sure to shield him. . .it may be perjury to do this, it is true, but you're keeping your obligations."

Handbook Of Freemasonry. p183.

Where can I find this famous "Handbook of Freemasonry". :confused:

PS: Found it on Google books. Who is this Edmond Ronayne character? He seems to be referred to as "the former Mason Edmond Ronanyne". Presumably he is quoting this from somewhere or otherwise he made it up? Which is it? What is his source? I have never seen anything like it and I have been round the block a few times.

[stompk]

Where can I find this famous "Handbook of Freemasonry". :confused:

PS: Found it on Google books. Who is this Edmond Ronayne character? He seems to be referred to as "the former Mason Edmond Ronanyne". Presumably he is quoting this from somewhere or he made it up? Which is it? What is his source? I have never seen anything like it and I have been round the block a few times.

I was wondering if you were really a Mason. Thanks for confirming.

Discredit the messenger. Yes, you are definitely a Mason.

You've been around the block a few times, but didn't know about the
Handbook of Freemasonry?

The info is available even from Masonic websites. But I'm going to let
you find it. And if you can't, and come back and say so, I'm going
to show it to the ICKE forum readers and expose you for what you
are.

[grandsecretary]

I was wondering if you were really a Mason. Thanks for confirming.

Discredit the messenger. Yes, you are definitely a Mason.

You've been around the block a few times, but didn't know about the
Handbook of Freemasonry?

The info is available even from Masonic websites. But I'm going to let
you find it. And if you can't, and come back and say so, I'm going
to show it to the ICKE forum readers and expose you for what you
are.

Read it again please!

I found it. It is American and it is quoted by an American ex-freemason. That puts doubts into my mind straight away even before we go any further. He does not quote his sources for this quotation as far as I can see.

Where does it come from, before it was quoted in the so-called handbook?

By the way, I never give way to bullying or threats. Company policy. You pull the trigger winkle.

[bkiddo151]

I was wondering if you were really a Mason. Thanks for confirming.

Discredit the messenger. Yes, you are definitely a Mason.

You've been around the block a few times, but didn't know about the
Handbook of Freemasonry?

The info is available even from Masonic websites. But I'm going to let
you find it. And if you can't, and come back and say so, I'm going
to show it to the ICKE forum readers and expose you for what you
are.

STOMPK--

KEEP THE HEAT COMING: FOR IT IS WRITTEN:

'I am come to send a fire on the earth: and what will I if it already be kindled'

also, like the first prophecy says they peirced HIS hands, but WE crush their head!

Peace be unto you.

[mike martin]

Actually, lying is a vital part of freemasonry.
Actually exactly the opposite is true but you wouldn't know that because your "knowledge" of Freemasonry isn't first hand!.

"You must conceal all crimes of your brother masons and should you be summoned as a witness against a brother mason be always sure to shield him. . .it may be perjury to do this, it is true, but you're keeping your obligations."

Handbook Of Freemasonry. p183.
Complete and utter made-up boolocks of course!

Do you really believe that the book actually says that???

Have you checked? You know it's on Google books don't you? You know that you can read page 183 for yourself don't you?

Thought not!
Mike

[grandsecretary]

Mike, this shows us that Goebbels was an infant in arms compared with the fascisti here.

Did this American nonentity with no biography get this quote from somewhere? I can't find it.

I agree with you - testículos!

[mike martin]

Did this American nonentity with no biography get this quote from somewhere? I can't find it.

No it's (unsuprisingly) a misquote used by several Christian anti-Masonic websites

Page 183 actually says:

And should the candidate delay too long in saying "Amen" either the Deacon or Master whispers in his ear, "Say Amen aloud," and he repeating "Amen" the Master says to him
W.M.- "You will now arise and make your progress." (One rap.)
The candidate, representing Hiram Abiff, is now assisted to his feet by the S.D. who conducts him in the usual manner once around the lodge room. and says:
S.D.- "My brother, heretofore in your progress in Masonry, you have been a candidate in search of Masonic light. You now represent our

The book is basically an American, Ritual Monitor.

Mike

[grandsecretary]

Why don't they buy the original books of ritual from the corner shoppe? OH silly me - no conspiracy!

[stompk]

Handbook of Freemasonry, by CH Stapleton. 1850

Look it up.;)

[stompk]

Witness. I have reference to the clause I have repeated in the Master Mason's oath.

Mr. Hazard. What part of it.

Witness. This part, " I furthermore promise and swear that I will not speak evil of a brother Master Mason, neither behind his back nor before his face, but will apprise him of all approaching danger, if in my power." I consider the plain import and meaning of that oath, would bind me to aid a brother Mason to escape from justice or screen him from punishment, if I could do so by warning him of hia danger.

Mr. Hazard. You say your Masonic oath would oblige you to aid a Mason to escape irom justice.— Am I also to understand you to mean that Tour Masonic oath would bind you to conceal any crime a brother Mason should communicate to you?

Witness. In the Master Mason's oath murder and treason are the only crimes excluded, which I understand to include all others.

Mr. Hazard. That is true. All crimes less than murder and treason are certainly included by that phrafnlogy. That is true. It should be so stated— turning to Mr. Haile.

Witness. Another part of the obligation I had in my mind was,that I will not give the grand hailing sign of distress unless I am in real distress, and should I see that sign given, or hear the words accompanying it, I will fly to the relief ot the person making that sign or uttering the words, if there is a greater probability of saving his life than loosing my own. If I were on a jury and the criminal on trial should make that sign, it would be it; my power to afford him relief, and my Masonic oath would literally bind me to do so by preventing a verdict, or using my influence to cause a verdict in his favor. [It was here remarked to Mr. Haile (the Scribe of the Committee) by a by-stander that he had not written down Mr. Thacher's explanation. The witness, on hearing Mr. Haile's note read on this point, said that was not as he stated it. Mr. Haile finally wrote it down in this form, " by pieventing a verdict or influencing others to give a verdict in his favor."

Witness-.—My meaning isthat if I was a juror, anda biother Mason on trial should give the Grand hailing sign of distress, my Masonic oath would require me to answer him, and afford him relief it it were in my power.

http://books.google.com/books?pg=PA11&dq=witness%20against%20a%20brother%20mason&id=k-wqAAAAMAAJ&output=text

[keystone]

Handbook of Freemasonry, by CH Stapleton. 1850

Look it up.;)Stompk

Is Stapleton the publisher? All the references to this paragraph that I can find credit Ronayne as the author - that includes all the usual suspects. LoL.

Cheers

[milone]

Thanks for sharing the information OP...not the first time I have seen that before...I would say you are definatley on to something here judging simply by the "nervous" reaction you got from the Masons on here.....keep up the good work.

[stompk]

"If your wife, or child, or friend, should ask you anything about your initiation—as, for instance, if your clothes wore taken off, if you were blindfolded, if you had a rope round your neck, etc., vou must always emphatically deny everything; you must conceal---hence, of course, you must deliberately lie about it. Il is part of your obligation, nevertheless. But you know 'if you live in strict obedience to your obligation, you'll be free from sin.' "

"Furthermore that I will obey all due signs and summons." "Hand Book," p. 183.

"Whenever you see any of our signs made by a brother Mason, and especially the grand hailing sign of distress, you must always be sure to obey them, even at the risk of your life. If you're on a jury, and the defendant is a Mason, and makes the Grand Hailing sign, you must obey it; you must disagree with your brother jurors, if necessary, but you must be very sure not to bring the Mason guilty, for that would bring disgrace upon our order. It may be perjury, to be sure, to do this, but then you're fulfilling your obligation, and you know if you 'live up to your obligations you'll be free from sin.' "

"Furthermore, that I will keep the secrets of a brother Master Mason as inviolable as my own." "Hand Book," p. 183.

"You must conceal all the crimes of your brother Mason, except murder and treason, and these only at your own option, and should you be summoned as a witness against a brother Mason be always sure to shield him. Prevaricate, don't tell the wholc truth in this case, keep his secrets, forget the most important points. It may be perjury to do this, it is true, but you're keeping your obligations, and remember if you 'live up to your obligation strictly, you'll be free from sin.'"

http://books.google.com/books?pg=PA106&dq=witness%20against%20a%20brother%20mason&id=IQ4AAAAAYAAJ&output=text

[stompk]

Expulsion by a Masonic Lodge.—The most startling proof of the power of Masonry to pervert justice in civil courts is the expulsion of Dr. F. C. Jackson, of Hartford, Conn., from liis lodge. The affair has greatly aroused public sentiment against the lodge. Prominent Masons who see the drift of public sentiment against them are hastening to express their disapproval of the action of the lodge. Dr. Jackson, whose only crime was testifying as a principal witness in a civil court against a brother Mason, on trial for the crime of arson, has been expelled from the lodge, charged with "gross unMiisonic conduct, unbecoming a man and a Mason, which if permitted to go unrebuked and unpunished, was liable to bring the good name of the institution into disrepute and cast a shadow over the fraternity of the city and state; that the said Jackson had wilfully committed perjury in making public a pretended confession confided to him by Bro. M. R. Griswold, purporting that he, Bro. Griswold, had committed a crime, that of arson, which if prosecuted and proved would consign the said brother to the State prison for a term of years; that Jackson had violated his solemn obligation in divulging the secrets of a brother given to him in his Masonic character."

http://books.google.com/books?pg=PA223&dq=witness%20against%20a%20brother%20mason&lr=&id=GMIpAAAAYAAJ&output=text

Effen Lying Goat Riders!

[bkiddo151]

Handbook of Freemasonry, by CH Stapleton. 1850

Look it up.;)

STOMPK,

They are nothing but the locust army that is spoken of in HIS HOLY WORD. They have breastplates of iron (their money and their weapons) and when they fall on the sword (of justice)they don't die (because they run the legal system.

See, this is why WE are BATESIAN MIMICRY SPECIALIST (like our BROTHER) and divide using HIS WORDS those GOATS on the left side (of the gulf) and the SHEEP on the right side (of the gulf).

Peace.

[stompk]

Stompk

Is Stapleton the publisher? All the references to this paragraph that I can find credit Ronayne as the author - that includes all the usual suspects. LoL.

Cheers

Here's a little help.

http://books.google.com/books?id=yeIru7WO9-gC&pg=PA411&dq=handbook+of+freemasonry&lr=#v=onepage&q=handbook%20of%20freemasonry&f=false

Lets put it this way. I have over 1000 books in my personal collection.

Good luck finding it. :p

[keystone]

Here's a little help.

http://books.google.com/books?id=yeIru7WO9-gC&pg=PA411&dq=handbook+of+freemasonry&lr=#v=onepage&q=handbook%20of%20freemasonry&f=false

Lets put it this way. I have over 1000 books in my personal collection.

Good luck finding it. :pTa. That means I probably won't find it then. :p.

Seriously though, the paragraph you quoted earlier in the thread seems to be credited to Ronayne everywhere I've found it. Can you cast any light on that if you got it from Stapleton? Did Ronayne plagiarise it?

What did I say last night about a pissing contest developing? I mean just look at this thread now. :confused:

Hey - could you scan the page from Stapletons Book and upload it as a jpg via imageshack or somat?

Cheers

[mike martin]

Handbook of Freemasonry, by CH Stapleton. 1850

Now do you know why I know which of the many "handbooks" of Freemasonry you were quoting?

Because I found the original of your quote on one of those sites I mentioned to Grand Secretary:

On this page: http://www.crossroad.to/articles2/006/freemasons.htm

it says Masons are required to tell lies and even perjure themselves to protect other Masons. They are also required to obey even orders which they know to be immoral:

"You must conceal all the crimes of your brother Masons, except murder and treason, and these only at your own option, and should you be summoned as a witness against a brother Mason be always sure to shield him. Prevaricate [falsify], don't tell the whole truth in his case, keep his secrets, forget the most important points. It may be perjury to do this, it is true, but you're keeping your obligations, and remember if you live up to your obligation strictly, you'll be free from sin." (Edmond Ronayne, "Masonic Handbook," page 183)

What are the chances that these 2 blokes wrote the same thing and that their typesetting made it land on the same page?

Like I said total boolocks!! You do realise that you can read the actual Rituals on line don't you? Rather than the "he said, she said" stuff you're shovelling at the moment.

Mike

[keystone]

http://www.livewild.org/CostaRica/Pics/a6024.jpg

[bkiddo151]

Ta. That means I probably won't find it then. :p.

Seriously though, the paragraph you quoted earlier in the thread seems to be credited to Ronayne everywhere I've found it. Can you cast any light on that if you got it from Stapleton? Did Ronayne plagiarise it?

What did I say last night about a pissing contest developing? I mean just look at this thread now. :confused:

Hey - could you scan the page from Stapletons Book and upload it as a jpg via imageshack or somat?

Cheers


Hey STOMPK,

I like the fact they are asking questions :-O but that you'll just plaster it all over the net for all to see, for it is written:

'I will discover their skirts upon their faces".

So if their skirt is on them but its on their face at the same time then it should be obvious even those those fancy (locust)dudes what's going on because they ALL DO IT.

But all of us BATESIAN MIMICRY SPECIALISTS (333) can see the shame right on their faces. It easy to see that they are MISSING FROM THE FRONT OF THEIR FOREHEADS (MARK OF THE BEAST).
And you don't need no book of their's to see what Our Father clearly shows us.

Peace Brother.

[keystone]

@ BKIDDO

Who is "they"? - I asked you last night and you seem to have missed the post. Also who are "we" that are "going to win". Right thats my question for you.

Now otherwise yes I'm asking Stompk a question because I'm interested in his data and the source. Whats wrong with that? But if you hadn't noticed I'm talking to the organ grinder. I'm sure he can answer for himself as you can as well.

If thats too difficult for you please sod off elsewhere there's a good girl - thanks.


Cheers

[stompk]

@ BKIDDO

Who is "they"? - I asked you last night and you seem to have missed the post. Also who are "we" that are "going to win". Right thats my question for you.

Now otherwise yes I'm asking Stompk a question because I'm interested in his data and the source. Whats wrong with that? But if you hadn't noticed I'm talking to the organ grinder. I'm sure he can answer for himself as you can as well.

If thats too difficult for you please sod off elsewhere there's a good girl - thanks.


Cheers

Simple question.

Are you a Mason, and if so, what degree?

PS. As this is my thread, BKIDDO is welcome here.

[stompk]

Thanks for sharing the information OP...not the first time I have seen that before...I would say you are definatley on to something here judging simply by the "nervous" reaction you got from the Masons on here.....keep up the good work.

Thanks Milone!

[keystone]

Simple question.

Are you a Mason, and if so, what degree?

PS. As this is my thread, BKIDDO is welcome here.

OK then - the answer is Yes. Oh but hold on a Freemason, according to your earlier post, lies all the time so the answer is I'm not if I say yes.

So if I were I would answer no which would mean yes. Crap! That won't work if I'm not a freemason because if I'm not I don't lie but perhaps I'm a naughty little tinker who breaks the mould and does.

Oh bollocks - this is pointless. Take your pick. No, I'll humour you. Yes. What was the answer?

Can we have a sensible conversation without making it a pissing contest or silly adolescent name calling or requiring to know each others inside leg measurement or whether we ate something for dinner that might offend the others tender sensibilities?

Cheers

Re your PS thats fine by me. Sensible contributions to it welcomed of course. Do you need a gatekeeper? No didn't think so and I was asking you the question not her. It may be your thread but it ain't your forum any more than it is mine :)

[keystone]

You are absolutely wrong, wrong, wrong! The goat is frightened of Blair. Far to ugly for him, and so is the goat! ;)Ohh political satire then. :eek:

Cheers

[keystone]

Have you seen this pic?

http://i35.tinypic.com/2vnjos7.jpg
http://www.imss.fi.it/pompei/tecnica/ete7.html
From 30 BC Pompeii

Mosaic found in Pompeii: represents the wheel of fortune, like turns, may become the rich man (symbolized by the purple fabric left) poor, and poor (symbolized by the goat-skin on the right) is rich, but all is highly precarious, Death is lurking in every moment, and life is suspended by a thread: when a wire breaks, the soul (symbolized by the butterfly) will fly away. And everyone will be equal.

Cheers

[grandsecretary]

http://books.google.com/books?pg=PA11&dq=witness%20against%20a%20brother%20mason&id=k-wqAAAAMAAJ&output=text

What is this crap?

[nihil]

What is this crap?

Mr. Hazard. You say your Masonic oath would oblige you to aid a Mason to escape irom justice.— Am I also to understand you to mean that Tour Masonic oath would bind you to conceal any crime a brother Mason should communicate to you?

Witness. In the Master Mason's oath murder and treason are the only crimes excluded, which I understand to include all others.

[nihil]

Mr. Hazard. That is true. All crimes less than murder and treason are certainly included by that phranology. That is true. It should be so stated— turning to Mr. Haile.

Witness. Another part of the obligation I had in my mind was,that I will not give the grand hailing sign of distress unless I am in real distress, and should I see that sign given, or hear the words accompanying it, I will fly to the relief ot the person making that sign or uttering the words, if there is a greater probability of saving his life than loosing my own. If I were on a jury and the criminal on trial should make that sign, it would be it; my power to afford him relief, and my Masonic oath would literally bind me to do so by preventing a verdict, or using my influence to cause a verdict in his favor. It was here remarked to Mr. Haile (the Scribe of the Committee) by a by-stander that he had not written down Mr. Thacher's explanation. The witness, on hearing Mr. Haile's note read on this point, said that was not as he stated it. Mr. Haile finally wrote it down in this form, " by preventing a verdict or influencing others to give a verdict in his favor."

[grandsecretary]

Mr. Hazard. You say your Masonic oath would oblige you to aid a Mason to escape irom justice.— Am I also to understand you to mean that Tour Masonic oath would bind you to conceal any crime a brother Mason should communicate to you?

Witness. In the Master Mason's oath murder and treason are the only crimes excluded, which I understand to include all others.

It's still crap.

[stompk]

It's still crap.

Suddenly your smug and phony niceties go out the door, eh.
:p

[keystone]

We gonna talk on a civil and sane level or what? If not I'll just go back to my Nassim Haramein vid.

Cheers

[grandsecretary]

Ugh!

[keystone]

Ugh!Who was that aimed at?

[stompk]

http://i38.tinypic.com/16lac6r.jpg

Looks like fun, eh.

:cool:

[grandsecretary]

Who was that aimed at?

Not you.

[grandsecretary]

More crap.

[keystone]

Not you.S'OK. Thought so.

Cheers

[grandsecretary]

I'm bored. Goodnight keystone. Sleep well.

[keystone]

Looks like fun, eh. :cool:

Stompk

I think I've decided that you are only capable of simplex communication. Thus this becomes a pointless thread.

You said in an earlier post that you thought this was a conspiracy THEORY forum. What use is a theory if you won't discuss it in order to refine it nor do anything except transmit. Waste of bandwidth.

Cheers

Bye.

[zero1]

After I recovered from laughing @ the title and content of this thread, I thought it might have been even less controversial if it had been called "Masonic Goat-Fucking".

I mean, really, this sort of fun-fact only serves to show modern Masonry in a very poor light, as grown-up dib-dib Boy Scouts having much japery and merriment in between bouts of indulgent Capitalist back-scratching.

Suddenly, I am unpreturbed by the shadow of Freemasonry in the Conspiracy.

If only I didn't know there were much, much higher levels of serious, selective Masonry that actually do qualify as 'dangerous'.

[stompk]

Stompk

I think I've decided that you are only capable of simplex communication. Thus this becomes a pointless thread.

You said in an earlier post that you thought this was a conspiracy THEORY forum. What use is a theory if you won't discuss it in order to refine it nor do anything except transmit. Waste of bandwidth.

Cheers

Bye.

Since you admitted you are a Mason, your response does not surprise or phase me. L8R. Nice reptilian avatar, by the way.

[keystone]

Since you admitted you are a Mason, your response does not surprise or phase me. L8R. Nice reptilian avatar, by the way.Well I was prepared to discuss. If you are not that says more about you than it does about me I guess. Particularl;y as you won't even address the apparent disconnect between the source you claim for the paragraph and the attribution accorded by most other sites.

L8R? - well we'll see shall we.

Reptilian? - oh dear - epic fail! He's not reptilian, he's a marsupial. Seems you don't know everything heh heh.

Cheers

[meksar]

http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/baphomet.html

[stompk]

Well I was prepared to discuss. If you are not that says more about you than it does about me I guess. Particularl;y as you won't even address the apparent disconnect between the source you claim for the paragraph and the attribution accorded by most other sites.

L8R? - well we'll see shall we.

Reptilian? - oh dear - epic fail! He's not reptilian, he's a marsupial. Seems you don't know everything heh heh.

Cheers

Did you, or did you not, take an oath to protect the Masonic Secrets?

[keystone]

Did you, or did you not, take an oath to protect the Masonic Secrets?Most certainly NOT in the way that you are reporting. Let me be quite clear about it.

First I took an obligation not an oath. Also it was a vow of fidelity not of secrecy. Yes there is a bit about secrets. But masonic secrets consist of the way we recognise each other. Before anyone goes off into an orgasmic frenzy of posting "masonic" handshakes the only place, the ONLY place that these are relevant is within the Lodge. Certainly NOT on the street.

Second let me type out for you now a couple of relevant portions of ritual straight out of the book. Yes it is straight out of the book - you can buy them yourself or read them at http://www.stichtingargus.nl/vrijmetselarij (yes I know its a Dutch site but the rituals are available in English)

Prior to taking the obligation of the 1st degree

It possesses great and invaluable privileges, and in order to secure those privileges to worthy men, and we trust to worthy men alone, vows of fidelity are required; but let me assure you that in those vows there is nothing incompatible with your civil, moral, or religious duties.

Part of the obligation of the third degree.

.............so far as may-fairly be done without detriment to myself or connections; that my breast shall be the sacred repository of his secrets when entrusted to my care - murder, treason, felony, and all other offences contrary to the laws of God and the ordinances of the realm being at all times most especially excepted. Note that it is EXcepted not ACCepted.

You see there is an enormous difference between what whoever wrote the paragraph (which we still haven't clarified) and the above. What you reported would be totally unacceptable to me and I would have refused to proceed with it. Its as simple as that.

I've known of masonic judges in the UK hand down more severe sentences than they would otherwise have done to convicted criminals who have "tried it on" with masonic signs. Oh and BTW should a mason be convicted of a criminal offence over here he's out of the fraternity. No argument, no question, no comeback. Sorry but it really doesn't work the way far too many people really really really want to believe it does.

I'm afraid that the truth is such a disapointment to so many people.

Cheers

[stompk]

That why there are degrees.

I call it, tightening the noose.

The further you get in to the craft
the harder it is to get away, and
consequently, you snowball into
a life of

"Do what thou wilt" Crowley

[keystone]

That why there are degrees.

I call it, tightening the noose.

The further you get in to the craft
the harder it is to get away, and
consequently, you snowball into
a life of

"Do what thou wilt" CrowleyI'm not sure what you mean. I can walk away any time I want to. I do not need anyones permission. I don't need permission to be here either or post what I like when I like in whatever thread I like. I'm even quite rude aout "my masters" on occasions.

Be careful with Crowley. He was never (there are no records) initiated into freemasonry despite his claims and OTO, Golden Dawn etc which he was into are not freemasonry. Mathers and Wescott (of GD fame were freemasons before they founded the GD though.

And Crowley was a bit of a fruit loop too. :D

[stompk]

I'm not sure what you mean. I can walk away any time I want to. I do not need anyones permission. I don't need permission to be here either or post what I like when I like in whatever thread I like. I'm even quite rude aout "my masters" on occasions.

Be careful with Crowley. He was never (there are no records) initiated into freemasonry despite his claims and OTO, Golden Dawn etc which he was into are not freemasonry. Mathers and Wescott (of GD fame were freemasons before they founded the GD though.

And Crowley was a bit of a fruit loop too. :D



All this I most solemnly, sincerely promise and swear, with a firm and steadfast resolution to perform the same, without any mental reservation or secret evasion of mind whatever, binding
myself under no less penalty than that of having my throat cut across, my tongue torn out by its roots, and my body buried in the rough sands of the sea, at low-water mark, where the tide ebbs and flows twice in twenty-four hours, should I ever knowingly violate this my Entered Apprentice obligation. So help me God, and keep me steadfast in the due performance of the same.

http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/duncans_ritual/entered_apprentice.htm

Pretty serious obligation, don't you think. And that's just the first degree.

[keystone]

http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/duncans_ritual/entered_apprentice.htm

Pretty serious obligation, don't you think. And that's just the first degree.Yes except that these physical penalities were removed from the obligations in England and Wales in Lodges under UGLE at least 20 years ago. The candidate is no longer required to repeat that. The symbolic meaning of the traditional penalty is communicated later in the ceremony however just for completeness.

Cheers

[boots]

Yes except that these physical penalities were removed from the obligations in England and Wales in Lodges under UGLE at least 20 years ago. The candidate is no longer required to repeat that. The symbolic meaning of the traditional penalty is communicated later in the ceremony however just for completeness.

Cheers

Ahhh but it's not just the threat of physical violence that is the crux of the matter. It's the words that are spoken. They have just as much power as physical force.

.

[stompk]

Q. Why were you hoodwinked, and a cable-tow put about your neck?

A. For the reason, first, as I was then in darkness, so I should keep the whole world in darkness so far as it related to the secrets of Free-Masonry.


http://www.phoenixmasonry.org/duncans_ritual/entered_apprentice.htm

I rest my case

[graflok]

Be careful with Crowley. He was never (there are no records) initiated into freemasonry ...


Aleister Crowley. Note the symbol on his hat and see chart below.
http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/9081/crowleymason.jpg


http://img195.imageshack.us/img195/9352/masonmap.jpg


Aleister Crowley had more Masonic and satanic degrees than any other man; he obtained ALL 97 degrees in the rite of Memphis, as well as all 33 degrees in the Scottish rite.

Crowley often bragged about all of his badges and medals (from rites he completed), he said if he were to wear them all, an elephant would creak under their weight.

He bragged about doing 150 child sacrifices a year

He crucified a toad upside-down baptizing it as Jesus Christ.

He also bragged about being the “great beast” of revelation (this was a self-esteem issue).

Source (http://christkeep.com/articles/aleister_crowley.html).

[deathcultreject]

And here is a paper with the relevant source references:

Cheers for that.

So it's some kind of cowboy prank from American Masonry, and it doesn't really reflect what masonry's about?

A bit like 'Dirty Sanchez' not fully reflecting the spirit of the Welsh. They're eccentric people, and it would be offensive if someone presumed they were typical taffs.


BTW, if any bible bashers are getting offended by references to capricorn etc. I'd advise a video search for lectures about astrological signs. You'll find Christians and Rabbis reclaiming astrology to it's biblical meaning, so these things aren't 'satanic' per se.

[keystone]

I rest my caseThats fine - if you do not want to read or you want to read what you want to read into the words I can't help you.

Cheers

[deathcultreject]

Lets put it this way. I have over 1000 books in my personal collection.


Well that doesn't mean shit unless you can read them. :p

Seriously though,

Can you please try not to cry wolf by attacking the whole of Masonry when only a small minority (such as the P2 lodge) have been known to turn bad.

You're making it harder for people out there who might have information on the real bad guys.

[barney_rubble]

This used to be a nice thread about "riding the goat"
and where the phrase started and what it means,

Now it has gone way off topic to blood oaths.

Back on topic.

The original post and others quote (and even include page images) the DeMoulin Bros. & co, catalogue as proof of a "Masonic Goat Riding Ritual".

The way I read the excerpts posted here and the phoenixmasonry.org site - the Goat device became popular with the Woodsmen and Odd Fellow Societies not with the freemasons.


That is all I have to say about that

[keystone]

Ahhh but it's not just the threat of physical violence that is the crux of the matter. It's the words that are spoken. They have just as much power as physical force.

.I see your point but:

The inclusion of such a penalty is unnecessary, for the Obligation you have taken this evening is binding on you for so long as you shall live.

Cheers

[deathcultreject]

This used to be a nice thread about "riding the goat"
and where the phrase started and what it means,

Now it has gone way off topic to blood oaths.

Back on topic.

The original post and others quote (and even include page images) the DeMoulin Bros. & co, catalogue as proof of a "Masonic Goat Riding Ritual".

The way I read the excerpts posted here and the phoenixmasonry.org site - the Goat device became popular with the Woodsmen and Odd Fellow Societies not with the freemasons.


That is all I have to say about that

Thank you Barney.

I want to know about goat riding as well.

Masons seem to applaud the Monty Python team for making fun of them, but the goad riding issue has been condemned as sacrilege, and this does make me very inquisitive, for the sake of diplomacy.

[keystone]

Masons seem to applaud the Monty Python team for making fun of them, but the goad riding issue has been condemned as sacrilege, and this does make me very inquisitive, for the sake of diplomacy.My problem there lies with this (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1058294165) post. I am still not clear if this was serious or "gilding the lily".

Cheers

[deathcultreject]

My problem there lies with this (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1058294165) post. I am still not clear if this was serious or "gilding the lily".

Cheers

I genuinely don't understand why people take so much offence to irreverance and blashpemy.

I wish I did, because it seems to provoke a lot of wars and inquisitions in the world in general.

I'm happier with Zen sayings like 'If you see the Buddha on the road, then kill him.'

[deathcultreject]

My problem there lies with this (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/newreply.php?do=newreply&p=1058294165) post. I am still not clear if this was serious or "gilding the lily".

Cheers

Ahh, OK, you think GS might have overstated his revulsion for humourous effect?

[boots]

I see your point but:


Quote:
The inclusion of such a penalty is unnecessary, for the Obligation you have taken this evening is binding on you for so long as you shall live.


Cheers


Mmmmm thats my point.

[keystone]

Mmmmm thats my point.It doesn't mean a piece of rope silly! It means you have made a promise and are expected to keep it. Is there something wrong with that?

Cheers

[boots]

It doesn't mean a piece of rope silly! It means you have made a promise and are expected to keep it. Is there something wrong with that?

Cheers

Righto keystone. Hows this for starters. You come over to my place and as you enter the door I put a rope around your neck. I then tell you that what ever is said in my house stays in the house.;) you get it. I'll show you some symbols which I've had for a long time and tell you they have deep meaning. Dont fuck with me, as I take the rope off of your neck. How do you feel?

.

[deathcultreject]

Righto keystone. Hows this for starters. You come over to my place and as you enter the door I put a rope around your neck. I then tell you that what ever is said in my house stays in the house.;) you get it. I'll show you some symbols which I've had for a long time and tell you they have deep meaning. Dont fuck with me, as I take the rope off of your neck. How do you feel?

.

So that's BAD manners, I presume.

*takes notes*

[boots]

So that's BAD manners, I presume.

*takes notes*


Nothing to do with manners at all mate.

What dont you understand about rituals, pledges and there esoteric meanings.

.

[grandsecretary]

I was absolutely serious. The G O A T vs G A O T U "joke" is both disgusting and sacrilegious. The lily is rotten.

The cable tow, noose or "rope" : is used in conjunction with the poignard or dagger.

The poignard, sometimes called "a sharp instrument" is presented to the naked left breast of the initiate.

The words that explain this to the initiate are generally as follows:

"On your entrance to the lodge this poignard was presented to your naked left breast to imply that had you rashly attempted to rush forward, you might have been an accessory to your own death by stabbing, as the Brother who held it would have remained firm and done his duty.

There was likewise this cable tow with a running noose about your neck which would have rendered any attempt at retreat equally fatal.

The physical penalty is that of having the throat cut across, the tongue torn out by its root and buried in the sands of the sea at low water mark, at least a cable's length from the shore where the tide regularly ebbs and flows twice in the twenty four hours."

This is clearly a blood Oath ceremony. There is no hiding, or denying this, but it should be understood.

The initiate is under no illusion. There is no going back from here on in, and the penalty for betraying Masonic secrets is the loss of your immortal soul, something that a truly religious man would NEVER contemplate.

The loss of the immortal soul is illustrated by a description of a death that results in a profane burial on the shore where the tide washes the body back and forth until it disappears without trace. In other words not buried in consecrated or Holy ground where the soul takes wing to meet with God in Heaven. Eternal damnation.

Now this is the reason for the blood Oath. An Oath REQUIRES a belief in God and the immortality of the soul.

This is why the Moderns system is irreligious and offensive.

Men are encouraged to repeat these things, and take part in these blood Oath ceremonies without meaning them, non-religious men, and irreligious men without the necessary belief in God and the immortality of souls.

This renders the initiation ceremonies meaningless, and without the belief in the loss of an immortal soul, the only penalty that is left is the noose and the dagger. I don't blame the rank and file Moderns Masons who are deliberately kept "in the dark", or who "bury their own heads in the sand" an interesting expression if one really thinks about it, but those that now know this, must search their consciences.

This response answers the questions.

[deathcultreject]

Nothing to do with manners at all mate.

What dont you understand about rituals, pledges and there esoteric meanings.

.

Do you say the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth every time you sign a form?

I think an oath is only valid if it's upheld by both sides, and the governement lies to us all the time so I certainly don't.

That's why I think that whistle blowers aren't automaticaly disgraced by being whistle blowers.

Anyway, what do you think I should know about rituals and pledges and their esoteric meanings?

I'm all ears, like a Vietnam vet.

[deathcultreject]

This is clearly a blood Oath ceremony. There is no hiding, or denying this, but it should be understood.

The initiate is under no illusion. There is no going back from here on in, and the penalty for betraying Masonic secrets is the loss of your immortal soul, something that a truly religious man would NEVER contemplate.

The loss of the immortal soul is illustrated by a description of a death that results in a profane burial on the shore where the tide washes the body back and forth until it disappears without trace. In other words not buried in consecrated or Holy ground where the soul takes wing to meet with God in Heaven. Eternal damnation.

Now this is the reason for the blood Oath. An Oath REQUIRES a belief in God and the immortality of the soul.


And you say you preffer this activity to goat riding?

Each to his own.

In view of all the terrible things that can happen to a soul in the embellishments of the Bible, I'm glad I don't own one.

Since a soul does however own me, I preffer not to weaken my connection with it by breaking oaths unless I'd make things even worse by keeping a bad oath.

I think society needs to formaly review the importance of a oaths and their role in a democratic society.

Also . . .

An oath under coercion is a mind control practice, as is the practice of telling a dissociative person that they have made an oath when they probably haven't. (Subliminaly or otherwise) It does go on.

[grandsecretary]

I think society needs to formally review the importance of a oaths and their role in a democratic society.

Also . . .

An oath under coercion is a mind control practice, as is the practice of telling a dissociative person that they have made an oath when they probably haven't. (Subliminaly or otherwise) It does go on.

I agree with you, on both counts. You might enjoy reading this article: http://grandlodge.blogspot.com/2008/08/oath-oath-taking-equivocation-and.html

[boots]

Do you say the truth the whole truth and nothing but the truth every time you sign a form?

Thats right you enter into a contract, EVERY time you sign a form. You are bound by that contract.

I think an oath is only valid if it's upheld by both sides, and the governement lies to us all the time so I certainly don't.


To late they've gotcha same with any oath. You make an oath you are bound by that if you are honorable.


That's why I think that whistle blowers aren't automaticaly disgraced by being whistle blowers.

Anyway, what do you think I should know about rituals and pledges and their esoteric meanings?

I'm all ears, like a Vietnam vet.

It pretty self explanatory, is it not? With regards to the initiation of the entered apprentice. He goes through a ritual and makes a pledge to the GM. Everything is energy and thoughts are energy. The occult is energy and symbols have energy.

.

[deathcultreject]

I agree with you, on both counts. You might enjoy reading this article: http://grandlodge.blogspot.com/2008/08/oath-oath-taking-equivocation-and.html

Cheers for that, I'll look forwards to reading it after I've sat down for a coffee.

The last thing I read on the philosophy of oaths was to do with the Viking god Tiw, I think. He became a god of oaths after he lost his hand for breaking one. :confused:

[deathcultreject]

Everything is energy and thoughts are energy. The occult is energy and symbols have energy.
.

Then I'd better sign a check to myself, paying me the sum of 'fluid self control of my own energy' in that case.

I've said a few things to people who were the first to betray.

[boots]

Then I'd better sign a check to myself, paying me the sum of 'fluid self control of my own energy' in that case.

I've said a few things to people who were the first to betray.

It's up to you on how you handle it. As for the other's thats their problem.

.

[grandsecretary]

Cheers for that, I'll look forwards to reading it after I've sat down for a coffee.

The last thing I read on the philosophy of oaths was to do with the Viking god Tiw, I think. He became a god of oaths after he lost his hand for breaking one. :confused:

There you are you see. A Sacred promise calling upon God (Viking Gods plural) as witnesses AND the guarantors of truth, with a serious penalty attached, or in this case detached!

That was an Oath.

No Oath, no Free Masonrie. It's as simple as that.

[bkiddo151]

@ BKIDDO

Who is "they"? - I asked you last night and you seem to have missed the post. Also who are "we" that are "going to win". Right thats my question for you.

Now otherwise yes I'm asking Stompk a question because I'm interested in his data and the source. Whats wrong with that? But if you hadn't noticed I'm talking to the organ grinder. I'm sure he can answer for himself as you can as well.

If thats too difficult for you please sod off elsewhere there's a good girl - thanks.


Cheers

Hi Mr. Keystine,

First of all I'm not a girl, but a wife and bride (figure that one out!).

The 'they' are the locust army boys --you sound like one of them.

The 'we' are the 'toes' they try to mix with, but can't.

And I know we win and so should you --lest you be seriously misinformed.

Bethca ain't asking me which book THIS IS ALL COMING FROM!

STOMPK keeps burnin' em.

Peace.

[shadow18433]

Cowbells hanging from your balls? Grand Poobah
prodding them?

No wonder they keep their rituals secret...



I have another clue, to why they keep their rituals secret...

remark that your pictures of Freemasonry, is similar with
the Bohamian Grove and the Skull & Bones behaviors and Rituals.....:eek:


The Bohamian Grove and S&B Members are all selected Elites Freemasons...!

Elite's Freemasons, Bohamian Grove and S&B members,are all Knights of the Illuminati...!

http://i34.tinypic.com/292r0b8.jpg

[deathcultreject]

There you are you see. A Sacred promise calling upon God (Viking Gods plural) as witnesses AND the guarantors of truth, with a serious penalty attached, or in this case detached!

That was an Oath.

No Oath, no Free Masonrie. It's as simple as that.

Well yes, a serious penalty such as a warrior's sword breaking in battle.

Judgement of the dead remained Odin's perogative, and he did have an oathbreaker (Loki) as a blood brother.

Now that I think about it, Odin made Loki pay off the blood debt for a murder by making him tie his testacles to a goat and attempt to ride it by standing on it's back.

Those pesky goats get everywhere.

[decim]

Was this bloke one of your KS?

http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/pics/noye-trial-12.jpg

http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/pics/noye-trial-32.jpg
The Government called him Britain's Biggest Crime Boss - 'Worse than the Kray Brothers'
The United Grand Lodge of England called him 'Worshipful Master'...


'Presiding in the East',
'Worshipful Master' Kenny Noye...

The life of Kenneth Noye has been one of malevolence and corruption. It is an example of how someone eagerly embracing crime as a profession can accumulate enormous wealth and frightening power.

Detectives untangling his network of corruption now believe that at least one prominent MP was in his pay.

Such was the apprehension and nervousness created by the extent of Noye's corruption of the police that during the investigation into Stephen Cameron's murder officers were given around-the-clock protection from their colleagues. Others changed their telephone numbers. The Noye file on the case was restricted to less than a dozen senior officers.

In 1977 after being arrested by Scotland Yard for receiving stolen goods Noye joined the Hammersmith Freemason's Lodge in west London. He was proposed and seconded by two Police Officers. He eventually rose to be the Master of the Lodge with the support of the membership of which the Police made up a sizeable proportion. Other Masons included dealers in gold and other precious metals. A little while later Noye was being helped out of an arrest by a detective who was a fellow Mason.

One of Noye's police contacts was prepared to intervene on his behalf not just with fellow officers, but other law agencies. The detective approached a Customs officer investigating Noye in the early 80s and pressured him to "lay off".

April 13, 2000
The Independent, U.K.
By Kim Sengupta and Paul Lashmar

http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/pics/policemasonry.jpg

The 'True Blue' 'Square Club'...

The Masonic symbology ("all seeing" eye, black and white tiles, triple turrents etc.) and terminology (Grand Lodge, Brethren, etc.) used by the premier Police Association is no co-incidence.

Of all the professions the law enforcement and intelligence community have the highest percentage of members who are Freemasons. This also is no co-incidence as Freemasonry intentionally seeks out new recruits who it finds the most useful.

Unfortunately organized crime has long been aware of this, and the more sophisticated criminals have used Freemasonry in their continual attempts to corrupt the justice system and 'gain an edge'.

It is for this reason that the British Government has recently put in to place a registration system for all police officers, judges, magistrates, prosecutors, prison guards, and parole officers in the U.K. who are 'on the level'.

Worshipful Master Noye was just the tip of the iceburg regarding corruption of police by criminals using the lodge system, and by crooked cops covering up for their activity by using their masonic 'cable tow'.

http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/britishmasons.html



I've known of masonic judges in the UK hand down more severe sentences than they would otherwise have done to convicted criminals who have "tried it on" with masonic signs. Oh and BTW should a mason be convicted of a criminal offence over here he's out of the fraternity. No argument, no question, no comeback. Sorry but it really doesn't work the way far too many people really really really want to believe it does.

I'm afraid that the truth is such a disapointment to so many people.

Cheers

[grandsecretary]

I have another clue, to why they keep their rituals secret...

remark that your pictures of Freemasonry, is similar with
the Bohamian Grove and the Skull & Bones behaviors and Rituals.....:eek:


The Bohamian Grove and S&B Members are all selected Elites Freemasons...!

Elite's Freemasons, Bohamian Grove and S&B members,are all Knights of the Illuminati...!

http://i34.tinypic.com/292r0b8.jpg

No they are not. Been there. Just a couple of decadent American frat clubs. Not important because America is not important.

[drakul]

That why there are degrees.

I call it, tightening the noose.

The further you get in to the craft
the harder it is to get away, and
consequently, you snowball into
a life of

"Do what thou wilt" Crowley

Do what thou wilt - as long as it protect and promote the Masonic agenda.

[grandsecretary]

Was this bloke one of your KS?

http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/pics/noye-trial-12.jpg

http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/pics/noye-trial-32.jpg
The Government called him Britain's Biggest Crime Boss - 'Worse than the Kray Brothers'
The United Grand Lodge of England called him 'Worshipful Master'...


'Presiding in the East',
'Worshipful Master' Kenny Noye...

The life of Kenneth Noye has been one of malevolence and corruption. It is an example of how someone eagerly embracing crime as a profession can accumulate enormous wealth and frightening power.

Detectives untangling his network of corruption now believe that at least one prominent MP was in his pay.

Such was the apprehension and nervousness created by the extent of Noye's corruption of the police that during the investigation into Stephen Cameron's murder officers were given around-the-clock protection from their colleagues. Others changed their telephone numbers. The Noye file on the case was restricted to less than a dozen senior officers.

In 1977 after being arrested by Scotland Yard for receiving stolen goods Noye joined the Hammersmith Freemason's Lodge in west London. He was proposed and seconded by two Police Officers. He eventually rose to be the Master of the Lodge with the support of the membership of which the Police made up a sizeable proportion. Other Masons included dealers in gold and other precious metals. A little while later Noye was being helped out of an arrest by a detective who was a fellow Mason.

One of Noye's police contacts was prepared to intervene on his behalf not just with fellow officers, but other law agencies. The detective approached a Customs officer investigating Noye in the early 80s and pressured him to "lay off".

April 13, 2000
The Independent, U.K.
By Kim Sengupta and Paul Lashmar

http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/pics/policemasonry.jpg

The 'True Blue' 'Square Club'...

The Masonic symbology ("all seeing" eye, black and white tiles, triple turrents etc.) and terminology (Grand Lodge, Brethren, etc.) used by the premier Police Association is no co-incidence.

Of all the professions the law enforcement and intelligence community have the highest percentage of members who are Freemasons. This also is no co-incidence as Freemasonry intentionally seeks out new recruits who it finds the most useful.

Unfortunately organized crime has long been aware of this, and the more sophisticated criminals have used Freemasonry in their continual attempts to corrupt the justice system and 'gain an edge'.

It is for this reason that the British Government has recently put in to place a registration system for all police officers, judges, magistrates, prosecutors, prison guards, and parole officers in the U.K. who are 'on the level'.

Worshipful Master Noye was just the tip of the iceburg regarding corruption of police by criminals using the lodge system, and by crooked cops covering up for their activity by using their masonic 'cable tow'.

http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/britishmasons.html

Not one of ours, a Moderns. Yes, Kenneth Noye lied himself into a Moderns lodge and the background checks, as usual, were woefully inadequate.

That being said I am very grateful to Mr Noye. I just finished playing the lead role as Commander Frank Cater in "The Brinks Mat Heist" for the Sky Crime and Intelligence Network. Look out for it!

Art for art's sake, money for God's sake!

[decim]

Roberto Calvi might disagree, if he could speak.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/5/55/Calvi.jpg/225px-Calvi.jpg

Calvi's death was ruled as murder after two coroner's inquests and an independent investigation, and, in June 2007, five people were acquitted of his murder after a trial in Rome.
Claims have been made that Calvi's death involved the Vatican Bank (Banco Ambrosiano's main shareholder), the Mafia (which may have used Banco Ambrosiano for money laundering), and the Propaganda Due or P2 masonic lodge.

The controversy surrounding Calvi's dealings at Banco Ambrosiano was the echo of a previous scandal in 1974, when the Holy See lost an estimated $30 million as a result of the collapse of the Franklin National Bank, which was owned by the Sicilian-born financier Michele Sindona. Bad loans and foreign currency transactions had led to the collapse of the bank, and Sindona later died in prison after drinking coffee laced with cyanide.[2]

On 5 June 1982, two weeks before the collapse of Banco Ambrosiano, Calvi had written a letter of warning to Pope John Paul II, stating that such an event would “provoke a catastrophe of unimaginable proportions in which the Church will suffer the gravest damage."[3] Banco Ambrosiano collapsed in June 1982 following the discovery of debts (according to various sources) of between 700 million and 1.5 billion US dollars. Much of the money had been siphoned off via the Vatican Bank (strictly named the Istituto per le Opere Religiose or Institute of Religious Works), which was Banco Ambrosiano's main shareholder.

In 1984, the Vatican Bank agreed to pay US$224 million to the 120 creditors of the failed Banco Ambrosiano as a “recognition of moral involvement” in the bank's collapse.[2]

On 10 June 1982, Calvi went missing from his Rome apartment, having fled the country on a false passport in the name of Gian Roberto Calvini. He had shaved off his moustache and fled initially to Venice, and from there he apparently hired a private plane to London. At 7:30 AM on Friday 18 June 1982 a passing postman found his body hanging from scaffolding beneath Blackfriars Bridge in the financial district of London. Calvi's clothing was stuffed with building bricks, and he was carrying around $15,000 of cash in three different currencies.[4]

Calvi had been a member of Licio Gelli's illegal masonic lodge, P2, and members of P2 referred to themselves as frati neri or "black friars". This has led to a suggestion in some quarters that Calvi was murdered as a masonic warning because of symbolism associated with the word "Blackfriars".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roberto_Calvi

1982: 'God's banker' found hanged
The body of a top Italian banker has been found hanging from Blackfriars Bridge in London.

Known as God's banker for his links with the Vatican, 62-year-old Roberto Calvi was the chairman of Banco Ambrosiano in Milan and a central figure in a complex web of international fraud and intrigue.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/june/19/newsid_3092000/3092625.stm

In 1947, Canesi brought Roberto Calvi into Ambrosiano. In 1971, Calvi became general manager, and in 1975 he was appointed chairman. Calvi expanded Ambrosiano's interests further; these included creating a number of off-shore companies in the Bahamas and South America; a controlling interest in the Banca Cattolica del Veneto; and funds for the publishing house Rizzoli to finance the Corriere della Sera newspaper (giving Calvi control behind the scenes for the benefit of his associates in the P2 masonic lodge).

Calvi also involved the Vatican Bank, Istituto per le Opere di Religione, in his dealings, and was close to Bishop Paul Marcinkus, the bank's chairman. Ambrosiano also provided funds for political parties in Italy, and for both the Somoza dictatorship in Nicaragua and its Sandinista opposition.

In 1981, police raided the office of Propaganda Due masonic lodge so they could catch the Worshipful Master Licio Gelli, and found further evidence against Roberto Calvi. Calvi was imprisoned, put on trial, and sentenced to four years in jail. However, he was released pending an appeal, and he kept his position at the bank.


In 1982, it was discovered that the bank could not account for $1.287 billion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banco_Ambrosiano

Yes except that these physical penalities were removed from the obligations in England and Wales in Lodges under UGLE at least 20 years ago. The candidate is no longer required to repeat that. The symbolic meaning of the traditional penalty is communicated later in the ceremony however just for completeness.

Cheers

[grandsecretary]

Roberto Calvi might disagree, if he could speak.
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/en/thumb/5/55/Calvi.jpg/225px-Calvi.jpg

Calvi's death was ruled as murder after two coroner's inquests and an independent investigation, and, in June 2007, five people were acquitted of his murder after a trial in Rome.
Claims have been made that Calvi's death involved the Vatican Bank (Banco Ambrosiano's main shareholder), the Mafia (which may have used Banco Ambrosiano for money laundering), and the Propaganda Due or P2 masonic lodge.

The controversy surrounding Calvi's dealings at Banco Ambrosiano was the echo of a previous scandal in 1974, when the Holy See lost an estimated $30 million as a result of the collapse of the Franklin National Bank, which was owned by the Sicilian-born financier Michele Sindona. Bad loans and foreign currency transactions had led to the collapse of the bank, and Sindona later died in prison after drinking coffee laced with cyanide.[2]

On 5 June 1982, two weeks before the collapse of Banco Ambrosiano, Calvi had written a letter of warning to Pope John Paul II, stating that such an event would “provoke a catastrophe of unimaginable proportions in which the Church will suffer the gravest damage."[3] Banco Ambrosiano collapsed in June 1982 following the discovery of debts (according to various sources) of between 700 million and 1.5 billion US dollars. Much of the money had been siphoned off via the Vatican Bank (strictly named the Istituto per le Opere Religiose or Institute of Religious Works), which was Banco Ambrosiano's main shareholder.

In 1984, the Vatican Bank agreed to pay US$224 million to the 120 creditors of the failed Banco Ambrosiano as a “recognition of moral involvement” in the bank's collapse.[2]

On 10 June 1982, Calvi went missing from his Rome apartment, having fled the country on a false passport in the name of Gian Roberto Calvini. He had shaved off his moustache and fled initially to Venice, and from there he apparently hired a private plane to London. At 7:30 AM on Friday 18 June 1982 a passing postman found his body hanging from scaffolding beneath Blackfriars Bridge in the financial district of London. Calvi's clothing was stuffed with building bricks, and he was carrying around $15,000 of cash in three different currencies.[4]

Calvi had been a member of Licio Gelli's illegal masonic lodge, P2, and members of P2 referred to themselves as frati neri or "black friars". This has led to a suggestion in some quarters that Calvi was murdered as a masonic warning because of symbolism associated with the word "Blackfriars".

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Roberto_Calvi

1982: 'God's banker' found hanged
The body of a top Italian banker has been found hanging from Blackfriars Bridge in London.

Known as God's banker for his links with the Vatican, 62-year-old Roberto Calvi was the chairman of Banco Ambrosiano in Milan and a central figure in a complex web of international fraud and intrigue.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/onthisday/hi/dates/stories/june/19/newsid_3092000/3092625.stm

In 1947, Canesi brought Roberto Calvi into Ambrosiano. In 1971, Calvi became general manager, and in 1975 he was appointed chairman. Calvi expanded Ambrosiano's interests further; these included creating a number of off-shore companies in the Bahamas and South America; a controlling interest in the Banca Cattolica del Veneto; and funds for the publishing house Rizzoli to finance the Corriere della Sera newspaper (giving Calvi control behind the scenes for the benefit of his associates in the P2 masonic lodge).

Calvi also involved the Vatican Bank, Istituto per le Opere di Religione, in his dealings, and was close to Bishop Paul Marcinkus, the bank's chairman. Ambrosiano also provided funds for political parties in Italy, and for both the Somoza dictatorship in Nicaragua and its Sandinista opposition.

In 1981, police raided the office of Propaganda Due masonic lodge so they could catch the Worshipful Master Licio Gelli, and found further evidence against Roberto Calvi. Calvi was imprisoned, put on trial, and sentenced to four years in jail. However, he was released pending an appeal, and he kept his position at the bank.


In 1982, it was discovered that the bank could not account for $1.287 billion.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Banco_Ambrosiano

No the words of the physical penalties were NOT removed. Words were added to emphasise that they are only symbolic. The penalties are still there,as you very well know.

This just proves to me that those who made the changes did not undestand them in the first place.

Lost the plot completely.

Roberto Calvi was a member of the Italian P2 Masonic Lodge which was, and still is infiltrated by the Cosa Nostra. Moderns freemasons try to give the impression that the P2 Lodge does not exist any more but it is even more active now than at the time of Calvi's murder in London.

[decim]

These 'moderns' seem to have quite a few naughty noys incepted.

Can't beat a good 'heist' story.

http://www.discoverychannel.co.uk/video/heist-interview-with-the-director/

Sounds like the career is on the up, GS, the next 'inspector Morse' or 'Frost'?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/25/Four-leaf_clover.jpg/200px-Four-leaf_clover.jpg

Not one of ours, a Moderns. Yes, Kenneth Noye lied himself into a Moderns lodge and the background checks, as usual, were woefully inadequate.

That being said I am very grateful to Mr Noye. I just finished playing the lead role as Commander Frank Cater in "The Brinks Mat Heist" for the Sky Crime and Intelligence Network. Look out for it!

Art for art's sake, money for God's sake!

[deathcultreject]

These 'moderns' seem to have quite a few naughty noys incepted.

Can't beat a good 'heist' story.

http://www.discoverychannel.co.uk/video/heist-interview-with-the-director/

Sounds like the career is on the up, GS, the next 'inspector Morse' or 'Frost'?
http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/2/25/Four-leaf_clover.jpg/200px-Four-leaf_clover.jpg

No goats were harmed during filming.

*scampers out of the room and goes back to some lectures on alchemy*

[decim]

Calvi's murder kind of negates any 'modification' of the penalties, his stringing up under 'Blackfriars', a clear and concise warning to all those in the 'know' who might transgress.

Mafia is mafia, no matter what 'name' 'they' go by, or 'justification' 'they' use to further their goals & line their pockets with the bloodstained, criminal 21st century incarnation of isacariots currency.

No the words of the physical penalties were NOT removed. Words were added to emphasise that they are only symbolic. The penalties are still there,as you very well know.

This just proves to me that those who made the changes did not undestand them in the first place.

Lost the plot completely.

Roberto Calvi was a member of the Italian P2 Masonic Lodge which was, and still is infiltrated by the Cosa Nostra. Moderns freemasons try to give the impression that the P2 Lodge does not exist any more but it is even more active now than at the time of Calvi's murder in London.

[mike martin]

Did you, or did you not, take an oath to protect the Masonic Secrets?Yes!

[grandsecretary]

Except that Mike will tell you that "Masonic secrets" are restricted to "modes of recognition" that everyone knows, so no difficulty there.

I'm not having a go Mike, please feel free to correct me if I am at all wrong. :cool:

[mike martin]

Ahhh but it's not just the threat of physical violence that is the crux of the matter. It's the words that are spoken. They have just as much power as physical force..

That's really wrong!

The point has never actually been the described physical penalties but the fact that as a man of honour you would rather have those things done to you than break your own word once you've given it to someone.

Mike

[mike martin]

Except that Mike will tell you that "Masonic secrets" are restricted to "modes of recognition" that everyone knows, so no difficulty there.

Quite right, under the United Grand Lodge of England we are told what the "secrets" are that we promise not to reveal. Those "secrets" are the grips, tokens and words which prove us to be Freemasons and identify which degrees we have attained.

[grandsecretary]

Thank you.

[spock]

i ain't afraid of no goats

[deathcultreject]

i ain't afraid of no goats

*whispers quietly*

"I think the grown ups are talking"

*tries not to giggle*

[deathcultreject]

For those of us who have trouble taking our minds off the sound of Bill Hicks screetching "GOATBOIIIIII!!!!"

Why not relax and listen to Jonny Cash?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxn48wSiCzg

[deathcultreject]

Goat riding is good.

It symbolises the subduing of the evil one.

A true mason rides the goat at least once
(it must be a real goat though).

If 'goat' is an anagram of 'Grand Architect Of The Universe' then maybe Gnostics could ride goats to signify Sophia overcoming the Demiurge.

I respect the Masons' right to disown the goat riding tradition, but maybe someone else might want it.

[decim]

Regimental goats, not uncommon.

Capricorn One.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/5/5b/RoyalRegimentWalesGoat_gobeirne.jpg

[phildee3]

Can you make your pic a bit bigger decim?
I'm a bit hard of hearing.

[mike martin]

that's just so unfair, goatboi, giggles goat riders in the sky

PMSL

[stompk]

I have another clue, to why they keep their rituals secret...

remark that your pictures of Freemasonry, is similar with
the Bohamian Grove and the Skull & Bones behaviors and Rituals.....:eek:


The Bohamian Grove and S&B Members are all selected Elites Freemasons...!

Elite's Freemasons, Bohamian Grove and S&B members,are all Knights of the Illuminati...!

http://i34.tinypic.com/292r0b8.jpg

That was classic shadow.

Good to see you here. Did you get expelled from ATS too!
:)

[shadow18433]

Quite right, under the United Grand Lodge of England we are told what the "secrets" are that we promise not to reveal. Those "secrets" are the grips, tokens and words which prove us to be Freemasons and identify which degrees we have attained.

Are you sure there is no other Masonic secrets....Let me help you...

What about The 13th degree York Rite & 33th degree Scotish Rite Ritual
of Drinking blood out of a Human Skull....


http://i36.tinypic.com/20rwcud.jpg

[carlperkins]

Dear Stompk

I've just read the first page of this thread, and will read the rest when I have time. I'd like to say that this is one of the FUNNIEST THINGS I'VE EVER SEEN and thank you for bringing to our attention.

Oh, and by the way, a quote from the "Grandsecretary" sums up my thoughts on freemasonry...

I don't agree. I find it vulgar, childish, boorish behaviour, offensive and irreligious too.

Break ranks, get a life, love everybody, dont be a fascist.

[meksar]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IEDTgPXElHQ&feature=related

[boots]

That's really wrong!

The point has never actually been the described physical penalties but the fact that as a man of honour you would rather have those things done to you than break your own word once you've given it to someone.

Mike

Honour to jabulon ( yes I know spelling, dont be so anal)

It's not wrong at all. Surely you know what energy and vibration is all about. Have you even looked into it? Otherwise it is pointless debating you, if you are ignorant of this fact.

.

[kweli]

i ain't afraid of no goats

Hilarious! :D So who you gonna call then spock!

[keystone]

Was this bloke one of your KS?regretably yes - to our inevitable shame. As GS said (even though you weren't asking him :rolleyes:) he lied his way in but he was found out (eventually) and expelled.

Just in case anyone would like to make more of this yes Paulson was as well as was that bent coper that ran the vice squad and others too.

He wouldn't be the first and he won't be the last to be expelled. I'm sure GS can confirm that.

There are bad apples in EVERY barrel. we do our best but sometimes it ain't good enough. Eventually most of them get caught out, sorted out and chucked out.

Cheers

[shadow18433]

That was classic shadow.

Good to see you here. Did you get expelled from ATS too!
:)

No i am still in, Corrupted Freemasons Moderators, like Mithful Me and all other freemason Disinformant Agents, Wolfpacked to derail all good threads which were reveiling and exposing Masonic Dark secrets.

I got enought, Above Top Secret is control by Freemasonry and Freemasons use this site to spread Propaganda and manipulate the ATS community.

The best exemple, is the HOAX of the Appak's thread ( a Mason is about to reveil all masonic secrets) This guy is registered with at least 3 different account, but Corrupted moderators brothers are protecting him and all others dishonest behaviors used at ATS by Freemasons and so to defend Freemasonry.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread494498/pg5

ATS had absolutly no reason to banned you out...other then silence you...


This site at least is not a freemasonry's comunist controled site......!


Great Topic OP..... S & F for you...! and for this site....;)

[keystone]

Are you sure there is no other Masonic secrets....Let me help you...

What about The 13th degree York Rite & 33th degree Scotish Rite Ritual
of Drinking blood out of a Human Skull....You know this absolutely, of course, being a member and having experienced / witnessed it?

York Rite and Scottish Rite are American.. I know them not. We have similar systems in the UK but not being a member I cannot comment further.

Cheers

[keystone]

I just finished playing the lead role as Commander Frank Cater in "The Brinks Mat Heist" for the Sky Crime and Intelligence Network.Oh goody - can't wait. ;). Too much carp on the telly these days - hardly bother with it.

Look out for it!Why?

Cheers

[stompk]

No i am still in, Corrupted Freemasons Moderators, like Mithful Me and all other freemason Disinformant Agents, Wolfpacked to derail all good threads which were reveiling and exposing Masonic Dark secrets.

I got enought, Above Top Secret is control by Freemasonry and Freemasons use this site to spread Propaganda and manipulate the ATS community.

The best exemple, is the HOAX of the Appak's thread ( a Mason is about to reveil all masonic secrets) This guy is registered with at least 3 different account, but Corrupted moderators brothers are protecting him and all others dishonest behaviors used at ATS by Freemasons and so to defend Freemasonry.

http://www.abovetopsecret.com/forum/thread494498/pg5

ATS had absolutly no reason to banned you out...other then silence you...


This site at least is not a freemasonry's comunist controled site......!


Great Topic OP..... S & F for you...! and for this site....;)

Yes, they can't win by playing fair, so they cheat.

Makes me all the more determined to expose the society of Satanism.

[keystone]

Roberto Calvi might disagree,Calvi was Italian. I can't speak for Italian Lodges. I said England and Wales but if geography isn't your strong point........

He was involved with the illegal P2 Lodge in Italy as you so rightly point out. Incidentally so was Silvio Berlusconi. Heard of him?

P2's charter was withdrawn by the Grand Orient Of Italy in 197something (but it was in the middle of the decade can't remember precisely) so it was no longer officially a masonic Lodge. Leo claims P2 is still in operation in Monte Carlo but provides only claims including him being chosen to succeed Licio Gelli.

Cheers

[grandsecretary]

Oh goody - can't wait. ;). Too much carp on the telly these days - hardly bother with it.

Why?

Cheers

Ratings! I need the money. :)

[keystone]

No the words of the physical penalties were NOT removed.Yes they were removed from the obligation as I said.

Words were added to emphasise that they are only symbolic.Yes I agree.

The penalties are still there,as you very well know.It is explained that "the traditional penalty at one time associated with the obligation in this degree was........" and that "the inclusion of such a penalty is unecessary....." as YOU very well know. Prove me wrong please. I repeat they are no longer in the obligations and the candidate is NOT required to repeat them.

This just proves to me that those who made the changes did not undestand them in the first place.You could be correct there.

Roberto Calvi was a member of the Italian P2 Masonic Lodge which was, and still is infiltrated by the Cosa Nostra. Moderns freemasons try to give the impression that the P2 Lodge does not exist any more but it is even more active now than at the time of Calvi's murder in London.You know very well that P2 had its charter withdrawn by the Grand Orient of Italy as a masonic lodge under the GOI. Whether its members continue to meet under a different banner / heading or no heading at all is difficult to know. But as a masonic Lodge under GOI it is defunct.

Leo also makes that claim but without providing proof that it continues to operate as a masonic Lodge. Unless you are listening to him and repeating then you must have some proof for the claim yourself. It might be nice to see it.

Oh and by-the-by the lunatic 2tuff claimed in January this year (fed by Leo no doubt) that Leo would be killed by P2 - very shortly. Anyone holding their breath had better exhale quickly or its curtains. :D

Cheers

[keystone]

No goats were harmed during filming.

*scampers out of the room and goes back to some lectures on alchemy*:D:D

[grandsecretary]

Nice one. :p

[keystone]

Calvi's murder kind of negates any 'modification' of the penalties, his stringing up under 'Blackfriars', a clear and concise warning to all those in the 'know' who might transgress.Please see my recent post. He was an Italian mason under the Italian Grand Orient. Those indicted for his murder were all Italian from Italy.

Mafia is mafia, no matter what 'name' 'they' go by, or 'justification' 'they' use to further their goals & line their pockets with the bloodstained, criminal 21st century incarnation of isacariots currency.On that we can agree.

Cheers

[kweli]

Not one of ours, a Moderns. Yes, Kenneth Noye lied himself into a Moderns lodge and the background checks, as usual, were woefully inadequate.

That being said I am very grateful to Mr Noye. I just finished playing the lead role as Commander Frank Cater in "The Brinks Mat Heist" for the Sky Crime and Intelligence Network. Look out for it!

Art for art's sake, money for God's sake!

Sorry GS, The first bit maybe, but money for God's sake? I don't agree - - I'm sure God is shamed by us and our money making ways.

[keystone]

Ratings! I need the money. :)No I meant why should I watch out for it? Your motives are your own (gizza sub huh?)

Cheers

[keystone]

Oh, and by the way, a quote from the "Grandsecretary" sums up my thoughts on freemasonry...You are, of course, entitled to your opinion.

Cheers

[grandsecretary]

Sorry GS, The first bit maybe, but money for God's sake? I don't agree - - I'm sure God is shamed by us and our money making ways.

It's an old saying kweli and I have to feed the cat. God wouldn't complain about that now - would he?

Sleep well.

[grandsecretary]

No I meant why should I watch out for it? Your motives are your own (gizza sub huh?)

Cheers

Well I think that it's pretty good although I have only seen the rushes. I landed another one today, same company, same network. Something about a, Knightsbridge robbery???

[keystone]

Well I think that it's pretty good although I have only seen the rushes. I landed another one today, same company, same network. Something about a, Knightsbridge robbery???Stephen Knight? Ooops! :o

[lord summerisle]

so to sum up, masons bum goats :eek:

[keystone]

so to sum up, masons bum goats :eek:Oh dear - you haven't read the tread then?

Cheers

[lord summerisle]

Oh dear - you haven't read the tread then?

Cheers

Just a brief summary, it shall remain a theory untill photographic evidence is presented :eek: or a scientific theory that can not be disputed, digging up dead goats for human DNA fibres :eek:

[kweli]

It's an old saying kweli and I have to feed the cat. God wouldn't complain about that now - would he?

Sleep well.

I figured you'd come back with a response like that. ;)

Stephen Knight? Ooops! :o

Stephen Knight did tell some truths though hey? It wasn't all lies surely?

[keystone]

Stephen Knight did tell some truths though hey? It wasn't all lies surely?Yes and no.

Cheers

[kweli]

Yes and no.

Cheers

For chuffs sake keystone! My question was simple, but I'll rephrase it to make it simpler. Did Stephen Knights book - The Brotherhood contain truthful allegations against Freemasons? I asked this question of Mike Martin some time back, he dismissed the whole book as a pack of lies.

[keystone]

For chuffs sake keystone! My question was simple, but I'll rephrase it to make it simpler. Did Stephen Knights book - The Brotherhood contain truthful allegations against Freemasons? I asked this question of Mike Martin some time back, he dismissed the whole book as a pack of lies.Ah c'mon lighten up. It must be too late (early).

Your question was in two parts so I answered in two parts. Yes to the first and no to the second. :D

Cheers

[stompk]

Hiram Abif wrote:
Actually, they do (almost) the inductee, while blind folded must feel down the front of everyone pants to make sure "all male bodies are present" if he feels someone who is a little to excited, he must "service" this gentleman orally in the presence of other "brothers."
During the final (master mason) degree in the blue lodge, a large female goat is escorted to the alter, and the final initiation process concists of having sex with this goat.

http://www.topix.com/forum/city/mountain-city-tn/TC3B9VP9BCK3NK3LT

[kweli]

Ah c'mon lighten up. It must be too late (early).

Your question was in two parts so I answered in two parts. Yes to the first and no to the second. :D

Cheers

Lol.. no straight answer then really? And it's not too late, it never is. I'm biding time waiting to go on my hols be catching me plane shortly. :)

[keystone]

Lol.. no straight answer then really? And it's not too late, it never is. I'm biding time waiting to go on my hols be catching me plane shortly. :)

Seeing as how you rephrased it. The book did contain truthful allegations about people who were freemasons - yes.

Have a great hols. Anywhere nice?

Cheers

[keystone]

http://www.topix.com/forum/city/mountain-city-tn/TC3B9VP9BCK3NK3LT

Hiram Abif wrote:
Actually, they do (almost) the inductee, while blind folded must feel down the front of everyone pants to make sure "all male bodies are present" if he feels someone who is a little to excited, he must "service" this gentleman orally in the presence of other "brothers."
During the final (master mason) degree in the blue lodge, a large female goat is escorted to the alter, and the final initiation process concists of having sex with this goat.

Hiram Abif being, of course, the forum handle of a poster on that forum.

Do you know stompk I've not had a better laugh all day. No intelligent person could possibly believe that surely? No please don't pull the "your lying" one on me. That is truly the funniest thing I've read in ages.

But then I thought - where on earth did he get that from. Then I saw it - Ephesians5-11. Mmm - I rest my case.

Oh hang on - do go there - why not?. Click on the rituals link as he suggests. Click on the MM degree ritual link. Find the bit about the goat. You won't - it isn't there. Now what a surprise.

Cheers

[stompk]

Believer wrote:
It's true Susan...a female goat is brought in before the alter, stimulation of the canidates "reproductive gland" is performed until it becomes stiff enough to fit inside the goat, then the canidate is required to "spill his sacred fluid" into the sacrificial chosen animal of Tubalcain (the masonic god).
After the "fluid letting" the canidate is stood up, places one hand on the holy bible and takes another "oath" promising lifelong secrecy to the aforementioned ceremony.
I am terribly ashamed to admit to this ritual, but as age marches on, I feel the need to tell a few of the rituals involved with this "secret organization" which is NOT very secret at all!
Take care and if your husband/boyfriend becomes a master mason (third degree)...smell his private parts when he returns home from his THIRD DEGREE ceremony.


http://www.topix.com/forum/city/mountain-city-tn/TC3B9VP9BCK3NK3LT

[kweli]

Seeing as how you rephrased it. The book did contain truthful allegations about people who were freemasons - yes.

Have a great hols. Anywhere nice?

Cheers

Thank you! Now I'm too knackered to challenge on which bits were truthful!? lol.. ne'er mind it'll save for another day.

Cheers - sunnier climes hopefully, and far from the madding crowd. Adios amigo :)

[shadow18433]

Click on the rituals link as he suggests. Click on the MM degree ritual link. Find the bit about the goat. You won't - it isn't there. Now what a surprise.

Cheers

Hey...you know what....The 13th degree York Rite and 33th degree Schotish Rite Ritual of Drink Blood out of a Humain Skull is not there too.....
but it's really is a Freemason's Ritual but it's part of the Hidden Masonic Rituals....

When Masons want to hide those secrets, they load theads with
OUT TOPIC POSTs between them self....to derail the threads about Masonic's Hidden secret Rituals...:rolleyes:

[kweli]

Hey...you know what....The 13th degree York Rite and 33th degree Schotish Rite Ritual of Drink Blood out of a Humain Skull is not there too.....
but it's really is a Freemason's Ritual but it's part of the Hidden Masonic Rituals....

When Masons want to hide those secrets, they load theads with
OUT TOPIC POSTs between them self....to derail the threads about Masonic's Hidden secret Rituals...:rolleyes:

:confused:

And we wonder why the 'questioners' get such a bad rep?

[boots]

Seeing as how you rephrased it. The book did contain truthful allegations about people who were freemasons - yes.


Cheers

Good for you keystone. you admitted that the organisation you are apart of has some bad apples...care to expand on that. The organisation I'm party too is full of them and I expose them every chance I get.


Have a great hols. Anywhere nice?


Anywhere away from England......( I was going to say shithole, but it might offend some nationalist).........With all those lovely camera's watching your ever move.


.

[deathcultreject]

regretably yes - to our inevitable shame. As GS said (even though you weren't asking him :rolleyes:) he lied his way in but he was found out (eventually) and expelled.

Just in case anyone would like to make more of this yes Paulson was as well as was that bent coper that ran the vice squad and others too.

He wouldn't be the first and he won't be the last to be expelled. I'm sure GS can confirm that.

There are bad apples in EVERY barrel. we do our best but sometimes it ain't good enough. Eventually most of them get caught out, sorted out and chucked out.

Cheers

Corruption and bent cops is what I'm worried about.

I wish you a lot of good luck with that, because it seems like the rest of us can't do much about it apart from condemn Masonry as a whole. :(

[deathcultreject]

Quite right, under the United Grand Lodge of England we are told what the "secrets" are that we promise not to reveal. Those "secrets" are the grips, tokens and words which prove us to be Freemasons and identify which degrees we have attained.

OK, so the hell, fire and brimstone stuff is reserved for those who would make the fraternity vulnerable to infiltration by it's enemies.

That's almost understandable, considering Masonry's history as a movement to unify the prototype trade unions, and prevent war between religions.

Personaly, I find that any kind of religion of fear makes me revert into a naughty schoolboy, so please excuse me if I lapse into giggle fits.

[deathcultreject]

Are you sure there is no other Masonic secrets....Let me help you...

What about The 13th degree York Rite & 33th degree Scotish Rite Ritual
of Drinking blood out of a Human Skull....


http://i36.tinypic.com/20rwcud.jpg

I drank mescaline out of a human skull.

That was with the Illuminates Of Thanateros.

Go and bother them, they accept expelled Catholic priests, they've admitted to brainwashing, and they tried to convince me that semen from 12 year old boys is the secret of longevity.

I'd be interested to see what kind of Ericksonian commands they embedd in their responses to critics these days.

[keystone]

Hey...you know what....The 13th degree York Rite and 33th degree Schotish Rite Ritual of Drink Blood out of a Humain Skull is not there too.....
but it's really is a Freemason's Ritual but it's part of the Hidden Masonic Rituals....Here comes the cavalry. Duh! Stompk posts a nonsense quote which can be seen to be such after just a very little research. Did you not notice my reply to him about drinking out of a skull? How about keeping it on a single thread. Go on then enlighten us instead of playing schoolboy games.

When Masons want to hide those secrets, they load theads with
OUT TOPIC POSTs between them self....to derail the threads about Masonic's Hidden secret Rituals...:rolleyes:Please miss, please miss. Pish.

Cheers

Oh and ATS is a crap forum anyway.:D

[deathcultreject]

Not important because America is not important.

:eek:

Well maybe not to a Christian, but some say they make the best porn.

[carlperkins]

From lord summerisle

so to sum up, masons bum goats

You've got to be KIDDING!

[grandsecretary]

Hiram Abif wrote:
Actually, they do (almost) the inductee, while blind folded must feel down the front of everyone pants to make sure "all male bodies are present" if he feels someone who is a little to excited, he must "service" this gentleman orally in the presence of other "brothers."
During the final (master mason) degree in the blue lodge, a large female goat is escorted to the alter, and the final initiation process concists of having sex with this goat.

Ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha! Classic.

Elvis Presley is alive and working on the bacon counter at Tescos in Tonypandy.

Trust me! :p:p:p

[decim]

KS, Point taken.

I was labouring under the apparent misapprehension that there is a 'common' 'mother lodge of all masonry' that issues charters, has constitutions & 'ways of doing stuff'.

Similar to how various 'intelligence' agencies 'interact'.

There is always a way for these 'groups' to distance themselves from their various nefarious activities.

An increasingly 'implausible denial'.

These 'they are nothing to do with us' statements are what Generates 'theories' & incredulity.

The 'withdrawing of charters' is acceptable retribution for bombing Bologna & brutal murder of Aldo Moro. Not.

How many other murders, atrocities have been carried out by these 'rogue' lodges?

If bombing the general public & assassination is acceptable, then Nothing is unacceptable.

Including London 7/7 & 9/11.

There is a point where defending the indefensible becomes complicity.

The undermining of government & your masons comes from within, not without.

The public are increasingly incredulous with the constant line of BS they get fed, & rightly so.

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=264709845600167246&ei=FNrFSoL2GcfJ-AasoNzKBg&q=gladio&hl=en&dur=3&client=firefox-a#


Calvi was Italian. I can't speak for Italian Lodges. I said England and Wales but if geography isn't your strong point........

He was involved with the illegal P2 Lodge in Italy as you so rightly point out. Incidentally so was Silvio Berlusconi. Heard of him?

P2's charter was withdrawn by the Grand Orient Of Italy in 197something (but it was in the middle of the decade can't remember precisely) so it was no longer officially a masonic Lodge. Leo claims P2 is still in operation in Monte Carlo but provides only claims including him being chosen to succeed Licio Gelli.

Cheers

[grandsecretary]

The 'withdrawing of charters' is acceptable retribution for bombing Bologna & brutal murder of Aldo Moro. Not.

So true, but be fair they were told that they were "very naughty boys" and had to carry on uninhibited elsewhere.

[mike martin]

For chuffs sake keystone! My question was simple, but I'll rephrase it to make it simpler. Did Stephen Knights book - The Brotherhood contain truthful allegations against Freemasons? I asked this question of Mike Martin some time back, he dismissed the whole book as a pack of lies.

That is an exageration, I didn't dismiss the whole book as a pack of lies. In amongst the intentionally misleading information there were honest mistakes due to Knight's lack of proper research.

Here is how I have illustrated some of his errors in the past:
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=637164&postcount=67
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=768583&postcount=9

The accusations he made against west midlands crime squad were tested during the mid 1990s when the Home Affairs Select Committee checked the UGLE membership records against the Police staff records and found that the claims were groundless (aka gossip):http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=311704&postcount=29

The problem is that the allegations made are actually based solely on gossip that Knight didn't think to actually check up on. It is a shame that he died so soon after writing the book as I'm sure that his follow up would have been far superior to Short's attempt. He would have had the money and the time to really dig deep and I don't think he would have been scared to admit the stuff he cocked up.

Mike

[grandsecretary]

The truth is that he had already established his prejudices, and then wrote the book in order to prove the prejudices. It would have been better structured the other way round.

It was VERY badly written, with errors of fact, and this caused doubts about its credibility.

That is NOT to say that his prejudices were all wrong, but IMHO he did a very poor job of this book.

[decim]

Alot of 'whistleblowers' suffer from the same malady.

It is a shame that he died so soon after writing the book
Mike

[carlperkins]

To keep the spirit of humour up:

http://bstorer.com/images/wtf/waynes%20world%20goats.jpg

You may need to get a magnifying glass on, I couldnt find a bigger one.

I dont mean to have a GO AT anyone in particular.....

[grandsecretary]

Alot of 'whistleblowers' suffer from the same malady.

Well technically he wasn't a whistleblower. He was an investigative journalist, not a freemason.

Yes it is always sad when a young man who should have had a future dies so young.

That is why we should live every second and be thankful.

[deathcultreject]

To keep the spirit of humour up:

http://bstorer.com/images/wtf/waynes%20world%20goats.jpg

You may need to get a magnifying glass on, I couldnt find a bigger one.

I dont mean to have a GO AT anyone in particular.....

For those of us who like synchronicities . . .

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ii2Wlt166CE

Heeaaaares GOTOS!

[grandsecretary]

To keep the spirit of humour up:

http://bstorer.com/images/wtf/waynes%20world%20goats.jpg

You may need to get a magnifying glass on, I couldnt find a bigger one.

I dont mean to have a GO AT anyone in particular.....

Just too lift our sights above waist level:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LJder_lzXXg

[stewart edwards]

The accusations he made against west midlands crime squad were tested during the mid 1990s when the Home Affairs Select Committee checked the UGLE membership records against the Police staff records and found that the claims were groundless (aka gossip)The copy that I have says:-we conclude that freemasonry was not a primary cause of the difficulties within the Serious Crimes Squad although we cannot entirely exclude the possibility that it may have been a contributory factor.see point 18 in http://www.publications.parliament.uk/pa/cm199899/cmselect/cmhaff/467/46703.htm

And if you read points 15-18 it doesnt put ugle in very good light. Especially:-The information handed to the Chairman, following the Committee's Order of 19 February 1998, revealed the names of seven officers who were masons during the relevant period. At this point the Chairman drew the attention of Grand Lodge to an eighth officer who had said on television that he was a mason and in due course Grand Lodge confirmed that this was so.[30] Among the names listed are two who featured prominently in allegations of corruption, although so far as we are aware neither has ever been charged or disciplined in connection with these allegations.

[grandsecretary]

Stewart, this is what happens when men do not understand what Free Masonrie IS. If they did, then this sort of thing would not happen, as it does.

The lack of a moral base is the CAUSE of these problems, NOT the result.

[stompk]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2WCbbyChJ4

Boys at the lodge, dancing with a man.
:D

[grandsecretary]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HZGb-Kjy0S0

Contrast and compare.

Oh sorry I forgot. It's proper music stompk, as opposed to what you have offered for our edification, the caterwauling of a brain damaged bull rider. 2 seconds, and off he goes!

[stompk]

Contrast and compare.

Oh sorry I forgot. It's proper music stompk, as opposed to what you have offered for our edification, the caterwauling of a brain damaged bull rider. 2 seconds, and off he goes!


Beethoven, was also deeply in love with his nephew, who finally tried to shoot himself in the head to escape his uncle's obsessive love. The loss of the boy plunged Beethoven into a deep depression which he did not survive. Their conversation books were destroyed by Beethoven's biographer as they were too incriminating.

http://www.gay-art-history.org/gay-history/gay-customs/homosexual-traditions.html

As for the conductor?


Karajan joined the Nazi Party in Salzburg on 8 April 1933; his membership number was 1,607,525. In June the Nazi Party was outlawed by the Austrian government. However, Karajan's membership was valid until 1939. In this year the former Austrian members were verified by the general office of the Nazi Party.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_von_Karajan

:D

[deathcultreject]

stompk ????

So you do have a referencing system?

Or do you just google a name untill you end up with some dirt?

It looks like a fun game, but it's not for me, really.

It wouldn't make my head go in a good direction.

[grandsecretary]

http://www.gay-art-history.org/gay-history/gay-customs/homosexual-traditions.html

As for the conductor?


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herbert_von_Karajan

:D

Oh now we know. A closet gay who can't face up to it and so gets nasty with the world in order to pretend to his daddy that he really is a man.

Come out, you will feel so much better.

It's a good job that we are not bigots. We'll be gentle with you Twinkle. :(

Beethoven was a homosexual. The fact that he was a giant, and a genius, doesn't count. Just a lousy un-American bum shagger.

No wonder you are so universally hated and discounted in this world.

[stompk]

It's a good job that we are not bigots. We'll be gentle with you Twinkle. :(

Beethoven was gay. The fact that he was a giant and a genius doesn't count. Just a lousy un-American bum shagger.

You calling me a bigot is kinda ironic, isn't it?

How many blacks do you let into your creepy society?
How many women?

From your own website


Welcome to the official website of The Grand Lodge of All England at York, the Ancient and Honourable Society and Fraternity of Free Masons meeting since time immemorial in the City of York. The Grand Lodge at York is the original exponent of true, pure, and genuine Anglo-Saxon Free Masonrie.

http://www.grandlodgeofallengland.org/

Anglo-Saxon;


In modern usage, Anglo-Saxon can be used in various contexts to mean people predominantly descended from the English ethnic group

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxons

And what's with the anti-American shit?

I'll have all English readers know that I like the English people.

I just can't stand elitist Masonic fags like you.

But I do appreciate you keeping the thread alive with your dribble.

[grandsecretary]

You calling me a bigot is kinda ironic, isn't it?

How many blacks do you let into your creepy society?
How many women?

From your own website


http://www.grandlodgeofallengland.org/

Anglo-Saxon;


http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anglo-Saxons

And what's with the anti-American shit?

I'll have all English readers know that I like the English people.

I just can't stand elitist Masonic fags like you.

But I do appreciate you keeping the thread alive with your dribble.


Oh touched a nerve huh! That was deliberate to wake you up!

Well now you know how it feels. Take the opportunity to change your bigoted ways, and incidentally I did not mention race (Freudian slip twinkle - gotcha!) (with acknowledgement to the Sun Newspaper)

In answer to your question, I would not even dream of counting our members based upon the colour of their skin, but a very large percentage. That is America's Armageddon. You are obsessed with race and it does you no credit.

Anglo-Saxon means non-racist citizenship, not a State, without national boundaries, open to all who accept common values and institutions. That is its very essence of being an Anglo-Saxon.

It takes a real friend to tell you where you are going wrong. I am America's biggest friend because I am not afraid to tell you that your are screwing it up big time!

Have you ever considered going to school? They would teach you about our great homosexuals like Beethoven. Take your shades off.

[deathcultreject]

Awww stompk can come out in his own time.

He's probably hoping that a 'Jock' might befriend him, and maybe even slap his shoulder in public.

Who would want to deny a closet woofter a simple manly pleasure like that?

[shadow18433]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p2WCbbyChJ4

Boys at the lodge, dancing with a man.
:D

LOL...That was a good find stompk... :D



Imperialism Elites, throughout history always had homosexual practice and Rituals.
Many Kingdom and empire, In Greeks and Romans etc, historical documents and relics, related to homosexual practices in the Monarchy.

It's like a privilege secret behavior, for those at the Top of the Piramid...!

but when you first get in a Lodge, brothers don't tell you all.... about the masonic's '' Goodies...! ''

SICK...!


http://z.about.com/d/politicalhumor/1/0/Y/b/bush_monica_moment.jpghttp://www.pensitoreview.com/images/screenshot-washtimes-homosexual-prostitution-reagan-bush.jpg
http://a5.vox.com/6a00ccff9823bf6ea500d09e4846a5be2b-320pihttp://2.bp.blogspot.com/_gsUALeZML10/R5j977voAnI/AAAAAAAAAuM/8VkEExcChdE/s320/eyeswideshut.jpg

[stompk]

Have you ever considered going to school? They would teach you about our great homosexuals like Beethoven. Take your shades off.

Nigel Brown. Born in Africa.

Here's a message for the Queen. You can give to her through the Duke of Kent, can't you.

Your days of entrapping American companies in your offshore accounts through credit default swaps are over. We are coming for you.

I am the Parakletos, here to prepare the way for Jesus.

We do not come in peace.

The sword cuts both ways, got it Nigel?

Remember Rule 158

http://i38.tinypic.com/1409qv.jpg
http://i37.tinypic.com/2lvkysm.jpg
http://i37.tinypic.com/6omqv7.jpg

[keystone]

Nigel Brown. Born in Africa.

Here's a message for the Queen. You can give to her through the Duke of Kent, can't you.

Your days of entrapping American companies in your offshore accounts through credit default swaps are over. We are coming for you.

I am the Parakletos, here to prepare the way for Jesus.

We do not come in peace.

The sword cuts both ways, got it Nigel?

Remember Rule 158Hi Stompk.

Sorry - but you got the wrong Grand Secretary and the wrong Grand Lodge. Just to make you aware when the other GS comes back.

http://www.parakletos.co.uk/ ? Oh dear.

Cheers

[keystone]

From lord summerisle



You've got to be KIDDING!:D But no cigar - too obvious!

Cheers

[keystone]

KS, Point taken.

I was labouring under the apparent misapprehension that there is a 'common' 'mother lodge of all masonry' that issues charters, has constitutions & 'ways of doing stuff'.No probs. Most peeps are and thats the root of the angst.

Similar to how various 'intelligence' agencies 'interact'.

There is always a way for these 'groups' to distance themselves from their various nefarious activities.

An increasingly 'implausible denial'.

These 'they are nothing to do with us' statements are what Generates 'theories' & incredulity.

The 'withdrawing of charters' is acceptable retribution for bombing Bologna & brutal murder of Aldo Moro. Not.

How many other murders, atrocities have been carried out by these 'rogue' lodges?

If bombing the general public & assassination is acceptable, then Nothing is unacceptable.

Including London 7/7 & 9/11.

There is a point where defending the indefensible becomes complicity.

The undermining of government & your masons comes from within, not without.

The public are increasingly incredulous with the constant line of BS they get fed, & rightly so.

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=264709845600167246&ei=FNrFSoL2GcfJ-AasoNzKBg&q=gladio&hl=en&dur=3&client=firefox-a#

Hang on a sec bud. Thats really quite paranoid and frankly absurd. The Grand Orient Of Italy has no legal powers and the only authorities that could bring people such as were involved in the murder to justice are the police and the courts.

The only thing GOI could do was revoke the Charter of the Lodge and expel its members. Unless you want them to take the law into their own hands and form a lynch mob?

Cheers

[keystone]

So true, but be fair they were told that they were "very naughty boys" and had to carry on uninhibited elsewhere.That is quite the most stupid thing I have yet seen you write seeing as you are so keen on the rule of law and doing things in a legal manner. What else could the GOI have done by way of punishment?

Cheers

[decim]

Paranoid & absurd? Really.

I accept neither your judgment nor diagnosis.

There are clearly 'masonic' webs woven throughout western hypocrisies, I mean demockracies. Judges Police finance etc..

Gelli, Kickbacks, Friends and Textures by Lirio Abbate and Paolo Biodani. October 1, 2009 - http://espresso.repubblica.it/dettag...rame/2111273/8

Bribes to pay less taxes. The Order of the Templars. And a Colonel who informs him of everything. Here is the latest investigation into the power of the head of the P2.

Military, politicians, ministerial officials, bank managers, judges, professionals, industrialists, and wheeler-dealers. A new network of "people from all sectors of public and private life." With an associative cover of Masonic stamp, which provides benefits "to each and every one" through "close bonds of brotherhood and mutual assistance." And at the top of the pyramid: Licio Gelli, the unfading Venerable Master of the P2.

Since the discovery of the list of 962 members of his secret lodge, more than a quarter of a century has gone by. From 1981 to today Gelli has accumulated convictions for crimes that have made history: primarily responsible for the bankruptcy of the Ambrosiano Bank of Roberto Calvi; a strategist for the very serious misleading of SISMI [military intelligence] (the first of many international false leads) of the [investigation of the] Bologna massacre [terrorist bombing in 1980]. Gelli has served the sentence at his home, the Arezzo villa named after his wife, Vanda Vannacci, because of serious health reasons that did not, however, prevent his escape ten years ago.

In 2003, interviewed by "Repubblica," he joked about the resemblances between his plan for revival and the program of the government led by its wealthiest member, Silvio Berlusconi: "Yes, I should have the copyright: justice, TV, law and order, I wrote about it all 30 years ago." Today, having celebrated 90 birthdays, Gelli is the custodian of secrets of a past that does not pass. The protagonist of new intrigue. He receives industrialists. He deals in business. He instructs colonels. He offers support. He acts as adviser to the organizer of a new network of "brothers."

To document the return of Gelli is the subject of a small prosecutorial investigation in the north, now transmitted to anti-Mafia headquarters of Palermo. At Verbania, a few days ago, prosecutors completed their investigation into a group of entrepreneurs who made money with false invoices. They organized fake exports of machinery and made false Value Added Tax claims. And for five years, in addition to not paying taxes, have managed to obtain reimbursement from the State of "at least nine million euros." The lion's share has been Tubor, Inc., a radiator factory with 170 workers, left bankrupt after seizure of the booty. In order to swindle the Tax Department, this "criminal association" had to annul the controls. And in order to ensure a "fiscal umbrella," as the investigators call it, there were two accused of corruption: Rolando Russo, Director of the Revenue Agency of Verbania, and Delio Cardilli, Lieutenant Colonel in the Finance Guards, in service since 1969. The two, according to the indictment, divided bribes of 1,748,000 euros. Although investigated by Rome since 2002, Cardilli until 2006 was in general command as "head of office operations of the Special Unit for Tax Evasion," and then became "commander of the regional training center" in Perugia. Before being arrested in June 2008, he taught at the "Free University" of Orvieto and wrote for the newspapers about tax economics.

In order to communicate with the others under indictment, Cardilli used 72 telephone cards and 29 cellular phones. Each number corresponded to a single person. To be able to intercept calls, honest financial investigators had to hide a bug in the office, being able to listen only for a couple of months. The Colonel is affiliated with the Knights Templar, the ancient order of chivalry which is now a lawful association like the Freemasons. On the warrant for arrest, the judges state that he was "in the running to become National Deputy Prior." And they transcribe a telephone conversation in which Cardilli describes to a "Knight" the "usefulness" that can be derived from his network of associates: "I want to make a force that, with humanitarian objectives, also economic, and then even a political force. . . . Politics in the true sense of the word. Because when I lift the phone and on the other end I've got the Knight Templar who is the Public Prosecutor for Rome, for example, I'm already calmer. Whatever you have to do, you've got a friend. Even for advice, no? On the other hand, pick up the phone and call the Director of Revenue. . . and you've got a friend. I like to make a coalition: all in one. You understand? When you need something, each of us has the ethic of helping each other. I'm Finance, then there's the connection in the police force, somebody else in the Army. . . . There are so many people. . . . There are those in public administration, several business owners. . . . That's how it goes!"

This key interception was June 16, 2007. All summer Cardilli was talking to Gelli. The Colonel would call the Villa Vanda and was identified as "Delio." The tone is friendly, but Cardilli is hanging on the words of Gelli. He assures that he will be at his complete disposal "except for a one week vacation." The intercepted calls document a strong understanding, a sort of alliance, between the officer under investigation and the head of P2. Gelli and Cardilli are suspicious of being intercepted. They speak in innuendos and half sentences. They promise favors, but do not specify names or details. Many calls only serve to make face to face appointments. In late August the intercepted calls are interrupted because Cardilli continues to change phones. In the tapes there is a record of his insistence on knowing whether there is "news" about a mysterious group of "five" that Gelli is secretly organizing. Cardilli asks him if he has contacted a "businessman of Milan" but he does not name names.

The investigations documented at least one meeting. The Colonel accompanied to Gelli's villa an industrialist who identified himself as Pietro Mazzoni, the owner of a business of the same name, with interests in energy, from cleaning to telecommunications. At the end, Cardilli remarks to a "Brother," that Mazzoni calls Gelli "Knight Commander" [Commendatore], that the two talked about business and that the Venerable promised support. The Colonel added that he needed see Gelli again urgently, because "the Master" owed him a "face to face discussion" about "something urgent." So that Mazzoni, embarrassed, wanted to leave them alone.

During the same period, Cardilli convened the Knights Templar for the festival of September 15 at the Castle of Oscano at Perugia. The Colonel asked his Knights whether to admit other "pieces of 90" in the subgroup "our" ["pezze da 90" nel sottogruppo "nostra"]: "I want to bring in two regional assessors, two judges. The prosecutors in Rome and Pisa are my friends. . . . Senator Schifani is another friend of mine. . . The Prosecutor of Bologna as well. . . . I have several nominations there, but until I see things clearly, I won't have them enter. I brought in the vice president of Finmeccanica (Stornelli Sabatino, according to the investigation). . . . The Prefect of Naples is in my Commandery. We have the notaries, we have the best lawyers, deputies, members of parliament, we even have a deputy interior minister who wanted to join; I will give you his name: Minniti."

Only bragging? Work connections that the Colonel refers to as interested friends? The investigation of Verbania has verified the membership in the Templars of professionals and officials directly involved in bribery. Everything else will now be investigated by Palermo. The anti-Mafia force discovered that on June 6, 2008 Colonel Cardilli met with a female police officer who then arrested as accomplices in a Masonic consortium, a band able to delay and adjust Mafia trials in the courts. The presumed head, Rodolfo Grancini, is a Mason of Ovieto, with relationships to Marcello Dell'Utri [Senator close to Berlusconi who has been accused of fraud].

The policewoman, Francesca Surdo, wanted to enter the secret service. In response to which Grancini asked her for her resume and set up an appointment with Cardilli, who described her as "already destined for the service." At the meeting the Colonel presented yet another important friend: Roberto Mezzaroma, Roman builder and former Roman Member of the European Parliament, of the Forza Italia [Berlusconi's party]. The policewoman recalls that "he had on his jacket the symbol of the circle of Dell'Utri."


Hang on a sec bud. Thats really quite paranoid and frankly absurd. The Grand Orient Of Italy has no legal powers and the only authorities that could bring people such as were involved in the murder to justice are the police and the courts.

The only thing GOI could do was revoke the Charter of the Lodge and expel its members. Unless you want them to take the law into their own hands and form a lynch mob?

Cheers

[stompk]

Nigel Brown. Born in Africa.

Here's a message for the Queen. You can give to her through the Duke of Kent, can't you.

Your days of entrapping American companies in your offshore accounts through credit default swaps are over. We are coming for you.

I am the Parakletos, here to prepare the way for Jesus.

We do not come in peace.

The sword cuts both ways, got it Nigel?

Remember Rule 158

http://i38.tinypic.com/1409qv.jpg
http://i37.tinypic.com/2lvkysm.jpg
http://i37.tinypic.com/6omqv7.jpg

Reposted, as Keystone is trying to bury it.

The silence from grandsecretary is defening.

:D

[keystone]

Paranoid & absurd? Really.

I accept neither your judgment nor diagnosis.

No Decim please just take your foot off the gas for a sec. You had a go at me because I said that GOI had withdrawn the charter of P2 implying that they should have done more. What could they have done? You post was turning the wider implications of this whole affair (over which I happen to agree with you BTW) into something that happened apparently just because GOI "only" withdrew the Charter for P2. That is what is absurd. This is a very simple point I am trying to make.

GS compounded it with his " don't be such naughty boys" statement. Which is why I said it was the most stupid thing I've yet seen him write.

I really didn't mean to diss your whole post - I spologise. The bit I was on about is this:

The 'withdrawing of charters' is acceptable retribution for bombing Bologna & brutal murder of Aldo Moro. Not.

Hope that makes it clearer?

Cheers

[keystone]

Reposted, as Keystone is trying to bury it.Silly sod no I'm NOT trying to bury it. I am carrying on a conversation with someone else from last night on this thread.

If you wanted to have a pissing contest with GS (which I see you have been today) what YOU should have done is start a new thread to address it.

Let me make my earlier post to you a bit clearer and its obvious I'm going to have to shout a bit in order to get the message over:

NIGEL BROWN IS NOT PETER CLATWORTHY. NIGEL BROWN IS THE GRAND SECRETARY OF THE UNITED GRAND LODGE OF ENGLAND. PETER CLATWORTHY IS THE GRAND SECRETARY OF THE GRAND LODGE OFALL ENGLAND AT YORK. THEY ARE DIFFERENT PEOPLE AND WORK FOR DIFFERENT ORGANISATIONS.

OK?

The silence from grandsecretary is defening.:DThat would be because he is off line. I was rather rude about him earlier so I suppose he'll be back to reply to me as well later.

Cheers

[stompk]

NIGEL BROWN IS NOT PETER CLATWORTHY. NIGEL BROWN IS THE GRAND SECRETARY OF THE UNITED GRAND LODGE OF ENGLAND. PETER CLATWORTHY IS THE GRAND SECRETARY OF THE GRAND LODGE OFALL ENGLAND AT YORK. THEY ARE DIFFERENT PEOPLE AND WORK FOR DIFFERENT ORGANISATIONS.


Cheers

grandsecretary avatar
http://i37.tinypic.com/2hwmn38.jpg

Nigel Brown
http://i37.tinypic.com/2lvkysm.jpg

Peter Clatworthy is an alias. Masons lie all the time, as this is evidence.

[keystone]

grandsecretary avatar
http://i37.tinypic.com/2hwmn38.jpg

Nigel Brown
http://i37.tinypic.com/2lvkysm.jpg

Peter Clatworthy is an alias. Masons lie all the time, as this is evidence.

Oh dear thats extremely poor research and even worse powers of deduction. Perhaps if you took off the dark glasses you would see a little better. :D

I think I'll let GS answer that then. He'll not be polite I'm sure. I can assure you they are absolutely NOT the same person. Similar follically challenged dome perhaps, similar little...... no lets NOT go there after all!

They really ARE quite different people. Actully I'm really quite warming to the idea that you think that GS is Nigel Brown using an alias. Might have to start spreading that around elsewhere. Heh Heh Heh. Hilarious that will be.

Cheers

[decim]

I was not having a go at you per se, I was lumping you in with the collective masonic brotherhood in general. There you go again with the 'implausible denial'.

The point I am making is that withdrawing a charter is just a sleight of hand, not dissimilar to a UK police force investigating another, ie. nett result, 'no further action'

This all ties in with the 'so many bad apples' allegory.

Bad apples is inadequate in describing terrorism, murder, financial embezzlement & in particular Stringing up OAP's under English bridges.

And further are you claiming that the UK had/has nothing to do with Gladio & thereby P2?

Did you watch the documentary?

Gladio & P2 goes right to the top, & all across Europe, not just Italy, MI6 & the upper echelons of NATO were/are involved.

This is a very simple point I am trying to make.

What you are saying is absurd, 'it was Italy not us'.

Don't try and pull the wool.

No Decim please just take your foot off the gas for a sec. You had a go at me because I said that GOI had withdrawn the charter of P2 implying that they should have done more. What could they have done? You post was turning the wider implications of this whole affair (over which I happen to agree with you BTW) into something that happened apparently just because GOI "only" withdrew the Charter for P2. That is what is absurd. This is a very simple point I am trying to make.

[bluehorseman]

I was not having a go at you per se, I was lumping you in with the collective masonic brotherhood in general. There you go again with the 'implausible denial'.

The point I am making is that withdrawing a charter is just a sleight of hand, not dissimilar to a UK police force investigating another, ie. nett result, 'no further action'

This all ties in with the 'so many bad apples' allegory.

Bad apples is inadequate in describing terrorism, murder, financial embezzlement & in particular Stringing up OAP's under English bridges.

And further are you claiming that the UK had/has nothing to do with Gladio & thereby P2?

Did you watch the documentary?

Gladio & P2 goes right to the top, & all across Europe, not just Italy, MI6 & the upper echelons of NATO were/are involved.

This is a very simple point I am trying to make.

What you are saying is absurd, 'it was Italy not us'.

Don't try and pull the wool.

Yes I concur this is just the sort of thing that really gets my goat. Stop calling them bad apples and give them thier proper terms would be a start.

[keystone]

What you are saying is absurd, 'it was Italy not us'.

Don't try and pull the wool.Sorry but we are at cross purposes. You have misunderstood me or I have not expressed myself very well and the more we go on the worse it gets. So I'm going to withdraw from this conversation for tonight.

Cheers

[keystone]

Hi Mr. Keystine,

First of all I'm not a girl, but a wife and bride (figure that one out!).

The 'they' are the locust army boys --you sound like one of them.

The 'we' are the 'toes' they try to mix with, but can't.

And I know we win and so should you --lest you be seriously misinformed.

Bethca ain't asking me which book THIS IS ALL COMING FROM!

STOMPK keeps burnin' em.

Peace.Thanks for replying - sorry I missed it before now. At least I didn't call you a fella (which I did at first - then did some research and edited my post). No I don't need to figure it out thanks. I know exactly what you mean

Oh yes I am asking - which book then? Hey if Stompk keeps burning them how can he be reading them as he claims?

Peace to you as well.

[stompk]

31"When the Son of Man comes in his glory, and all the angels with him, he will sit on his throne in heavenly glory. 32All the nations will be gathered before him, and he will separate the people one from another as a shepherd separates the sheep from the goats. 33He will put the sheep on his right and the goats on his left.

34"Then the King will say to those on his right, 'Come, you who are blessed by my Father; take your inheritance, the kingdom prepared for you since the creation of the world. 35For I was hungry and you gave me something to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me something to drink, I was a stranger and you invited me in, 36I needed clothes and you clothed me, I was sick and you looked after me, I was in prison and you came to visit me.'

37"Then the righteous will answer him, 'Lord, when did we see you hungry and feed you, or thirsty and give you something to drink? 38When did we see you a stranger and invite you in, or needing clothes and clothe you? 39When did we see you sick or in prison and go to visit you?'

40"The King will reply, 'I tell you the truth, whatever you did for one of the least of these brothers of mine, you did for me.'

41"Then he will say to those on his left, 'Depart from me, you who are cursed, into the eternal fire prepared for the devil and his angels. 42For I was hungry and you gave me nothing to eat, I was thirsty and you gave me nothing to drink, 43I was a stranger and you did not invite me in, I needed clothes and you did not clothe me, I was sick and in prison and you did not look after me.'

http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew+25&version=NIV

[grandsecretary]

Nigel Brown. Born in Africa.

Here's a message for the Queen. You can give to her through the Duke of Kent, can't you.

Your days of entrapping American companies in your offshore accounts through credit default swaps are over. We are coming for you.

I am the Parakletos, here to prepare the way for Jesus.

We do not come in peace.

The sword cuts both ways, got it Nigel?

Remember Rule 158

http://i38.tinypic.com/1409qv.jpg
http://i37.tinypic.com/2lvkysm.jpg
http://i37.tinypic.com/6omqv7.jpg

Never assume old lad.

[grandsecretary]

That is quite the most stupid thing I have yet seen you write seeing as you are so keen on the rule of law and doing things in a legal manner. What else could the GOI have done by way of punishment?

Cheers

Mike,

It is no good closing the door after the horse has bolted. Do not allow these criminals to join in the first place.

It is your (your Grand Lodge's) responsibility and it has a duty of care.

Oops we got it wrong - AGAIN -is simply not good enough.

[mike martin]

Nigel Brown. Born in Africa.

Here's a message for the Queen. You can give to her through the Duke of Kent, can't you.

This was just so chuffing funny!

Huge kudos to you for you investigative powers stompy. Unfortunately you mised a clue or two:
1) Nigel Brown is the Grand Secretary of the UGLE and Peter Clatworthy is the Grand Secretary of the GLAE
2) Their photos show totally different men, this would have given most truth seekers a clue!

Oh yeah and I can categorically confirm that they're not the same person as I've not met Peter yet but I go to Lodge meetings with Nigel.

Mike

[grandsecretary]

I'm the rather good looking one. :)

[mike martin]

Mike,

It is no good closing the door after the horse has bolted. Do not allow these criminals to join in the first place.

It is your (your Grand Lodge's) responsibility and it has a duty of care.

Oops we got it wrong - AGAIN -is simply not good enough.

First I didn't write the point you responded to but even so (and as you well know) the UGLE has no authority over any other Grand Lodge and so there is nothing at all that it can do about pretend Masons misbehaving in Italy.

The thing is you know that for a fact. How could it, if it couldn't even stop you and Rui from starting rival Grand Lodges right here in England??

Come on don't ham it up too much.
Mike