Understanding God as Nothing

[dedicate]

Now this is a real tough ONE or should I say, 0. And the reason is for bringing it up is two fold, and maybe a third.

It has come to my attention the elite are trying to pervert, and take over the mystic vision of "God is everything", concept. We can not let them do this, as I believe mankind has gone through many evolutions of understanding spirituality and God... and we are now moving from the monotheistic view of God to the mystical view of God (prior to that,, vengeful God to loving God). The Mystic view includes the monotheistic view, but pushes it a little further. The monotheist does not give up a thing to take the next step into the mystical view, so don't worry. There is only God (even though this next step after the Mystic view requires the understanding -- there is not). We can never let the elite pre-empt our evolution with their trickery. We must stay one step ahead, and this is the reason for this thread. One step further from the mystical view, is unmanifest Brahman understanding.

There is very little known or said about Unmanifest Brahman, because it can only be described as nothing at all, absolute, That, or even It. We find most information about IT in the Upanishads, part of the Hindu Vedas. The theory is, Behind all Being is Non-Being,, and this is nothing or The Absolute, the source of all that is. Even more than paradoxical wouldn't you say... supposidly, everything manefest from something non-existant! Curiouser and curiouser. Sort of like a parallel universe within a mirror, but in this case the universe the mirror relfects is sourced by it's relfection!

Here is what Wikedpedia says --

n the Hindu religion, Brahman (ब्रह्मन्, brahman, nominative brahma, ब्रह्म) is the unchanging, infinite, immanent, and transcendent reality which is the Divine Ground of all matter, energy, time, space, being, and everything beyond in this Universe.

But that is not really it!

Here is something else written in English on the subject. http://hinduism.about.com/od/basics/a/brahman.htm

Let us look at what Hinduism holds to be the Absolute. The ultimate goal and Absolute of Hinduism is termed "Brahman" in Sanskrit......
Brahman, as understood by the scriptures of Hinduism, as well as by the 'acharyas' of the Vedanta school, is a very specific conception of the Absolute. This unique conception has not been replicated by any other religion on earth, and is exclusive to Hinduism. Thus to even call this conception of Brahman "God" is, in a sense, somewhat imprecise...... Brahman is not a "He" at all, but rather transcends all empirically discernable categories, limitations and dualities.

What is Brahman?
In the 'Taittariya Upanishad' II.1, Brahman is described in the following manner: "satyam jnanam anantam brahma", "Brahman is of the nature of truth, knowledge and infinity." Infinite positive qualities and states have their existence secured solely by virtue of Brahman's very reality. Brahman is a necessary reality, eternal..., fully independent, non-contingent, and the source and ground of all things. Brahman is both immanently present in the realm of materiality, interpenetrating the whole of reality as the sustaining essence that gives it structure, meaning and existential being,....

The Nature of Brahman
As the primary causal substance of material reality (jagatkarana), Brahman does not arbitrarily will the coming into being of the non-Brahman metaphysical principles of matter and jivas (individuated consciousness).

Brahman is the Source
One can say that Brahman Itself (Him/Herself) constitutes the essential building material of all reality, being the antecedent primeval ontological substance from whence all things proceed......

The Final Goal & the Final Cause
As the source of Dharma, the metaphysical ordering principles inherent in the design of the cosmos, Brahman can be viewed as the Formal Cause. And as the final goal of all reality, Brahman is also the Final Cause. ........ These views about the nature of Brahman are in general keeping with the theological teachings of both the Advaita and the Vishishta-Advaita schools of Hinduism.

Brahman is the Ultimate Reality
All reality has its source in Brahman. All reality has its grounding sustenance in Brahman. It is in Brahman that all reality has its ultimate repose..

.................................................. ..............................................


Couple of things.. this essay talks of UNMANIFEST BRAHMAN,, not just "Brahman", as all is Brahman,, and I do disagree that this concept has only been developed/practiced/understood by the Hindues. There are others.

more later.

[bsmurph83]

this little passage seemed vaguely relevant...

XVIII
Atman, Brahman, Shunyata, and Nirvana

The Radiant Transcendental Being is not the "atman," the soul or presumed eternal individual self-essence. There is no such eternal individual. What is presumed to be the individual self is a temporary configuration that is the present result of a continuous play (without apparent beginning or end) upon the Only Eternal, which is the Radiant Transcendental Being. Therefore, the "atman" is Really Brahman, or Transcendental Being, in which all beings and conditions appear to arise, but which is characterized as Void ("Shunyata"), the Nirvanically or Transcendentally Real. All conditions arise in the Radiant Transcendental Being or Void like thoughts arise in the mind. There is no ultimate substantiality, eternality, or necessity to any of it.

http://www.dabase.org/nrvXVIII.htm

other religions have their equivalent. there's probably a bunch... i'm no expert. what about Vedanta?

it's all just code for infinite consciousness (self) :cool:

[dedicate]

Yes it is. Nirvanna.. Buddhism.. Yes. That's what I was thinking. Especially Zen and the term Nirvanna (which means litterally,, "No person there")...

And I like what you say,, "Its all code for self". Yes. I agree. Its all code for self. I like that.

"Infinite conscousness," I have trouble with that. But I know what you mean,.

P.S. Vedanta means, from the Vedas. The Upanisads is vedic.

[bsmurph83]

Yes it is. Nirvanna.. Buddhism.. Yes. That's what I was thinking. Especially Zen and the term Nirvanna (which means litterally,, "No person there")...

And I like what you say,, "Its all code for self". Yes. I agree. Its all code for self. I like that.

"Infinite conscousness," I have trouble with that. But I know what you mean,.

P.S. Vedanta means, from the Vedas. The Upanisads is vedic.

yeh, i could certainly do with some extra reading in terms of eastern religions... problem is that if you've experienced infinite consciousness (and i mean INFINITE), then reading about it doesn't hold much appeal, unless it's just one of those things one is innately interested in (and i'm not, hence my ignorance).

you mentioned zen... from what i've read, the whole point of zen is to experience the true nature of consciousness (infinity). many paths - same destination!

vedanta means 'from the vedas', you said. is it grammatically correct to say one is 'studying vedanta', meaning studying the content of the vedas?

EDIT: in terms of the OP, the term 'Void' also comes to mind...

[enga]

http://www.thebigview.com/buddhism/emptiness.html

[swethirte]

This is all just self-indulgent sophistry I'm afraid, and wouldn't even merit a comment were it not for the claim that it's a more spiritually "evolved" way of looking at things. In fact it isn't, because it's completely worthless. True deities are real entities with whom one can have a personal relationship.

[rowan22]

http://www.thebigview.com/buddhism/emptiness.html

Nice link enga. I don’t know if many in the West are ready for the realisation that emptiness is form. It requires a lightness of touch our culture tries either by design of by default to repress rather than experience.

[dedicate]

Just a couple things, swethert -- If I wasn't being self-indulgent, it may not be interesting. I'm trying to keep a subject about which absolutely not much can be said, interesting. That means self-indulgence.

It could be that you are not ready for this view (and is why you see Brahman tech as sophistry),, as it is apparent by many messages on this board, some are not ready for the mystical view.. and some are not even ready for the monotheistic view (though I believe, most all are ready for that by now! And it is their resistance that prevents them from seeeee ing).. There is only one God.

But you yourself are still talking in terms of "Deities" as being the Religion..more than one God. Probably you can not get your mind outside this even... or are still stuck on being against the "vengefull" monotheistic God -- HIM,, mankind needed so mankind would not become like an animal, so you have taken a step back to polytheism. You have such contempt for the "All Mighty and Wrathfull God" that you have failed to even take a step most people find themselves on.. having moved beyond the vengeful God to the all powerfull loving monotheistic God and looking forward to the Mystical vision of God being all things, everywhere, you, me, everthing.-- the beautiful, interesting, creative, supurbe, wonderful, meaningful, God. Get off the idea of a vengefull, wrathfull, HIM -- which is true, but it is in the past, we have moved on in our understanding. Most people respond to the loving side, these days, and God doesn't have to be such a strict parent as he once was. We have grown up.


And I see the PTB are trying to pre-empt this Unity vision of God.. -- Maybe they see it coming! There are 1,000 websites and organizations promoting UNITY OF FAITH and WE ARE ALL ONE. But without the understanding there is more to it than that even,, one may either get lost in their propaganda or fall back into the previous view.. creating a conflict.

And still -- the basic need from all people, irregardless of their view, what ever it might be,, in order for us to progress.. is for the religious minded person to refrain from thinking/stating.. "My way is It!" "I have the Answers and anybody that disagrees is wrong".. or even,, "This is all there is to it, and that is final". This attitude,,, irregardless of what stage one is on,, is the true killer of progress. This is why the elite are now bringing in this New Vision -- to manipulate it, use it, and have you say after accepting it -- "Now I have it."

[rowan22]

Perhaps when Buddha said that his way was but one way, and that people should find their own way he said more than all the symbolism in the Vedanta can.

Ultimately any religion is about ourselves. It's about our most profound sense of who and where we are. It's about how we experience the world around us, but how we do this is defined by how we experience our own being.

There should be no reason to not ask ourselves rational questions about who and where we are unless there is. And if there is, then it is these reasons which must be cleared into our own acceptance first.

Otherwise they will be projected into a multitude of "deities" or "spirits" or "demons" or whatever imagination has displaced them into to protect itself from asking straightforward questions which invariably have straightforward, albeit painful answers.

Self acceptance is about conditionless experience of our own self, healing only comes this way. If this is an absolute, then it absolutely is the case that personal freedom is the only way.

[octopusrex]

Now this is a real tough ONE or should I say, 0. And the reason is for bringing it up is two fold, and maybe a third.

It has come to my attention the elite are trying to pervert, and take over the mystic vision of "God is everything", concept. We can not let them do this, as I believe mankind has gone through many evolutions of understanding spirituality and God... and we are now moving from the monotheistic view of God to the mystical view of God (prior to that,, vengeful God to loving God). The Mystic view includes the monotheistic view, but pushes it a little further. The monotheist does not give up a thing to take the next step into the mystical view, so don't worry. There is only God (even though this next step after the Mystic view requires the understanding -- there is not). We can never let the elite pre-empt our evolution with their trickery. We must stay one step ahead, and this is the reason for this thread. One step further from the mystical view, is unmanifest Brahman understanding.

There is very little known or said about Unmanifest Brahman, because it can only be described as nothing at all, absolute, That, or even It. We find most information about IT in the Upanishads, part of the Hindu Vedas. The theory is, Behind all Being is Non-Being,, and this is nothing or The Absolute, the source of all that is. Even more than paradoxical wouldn't you say... supposidly, everything manefest from something non-existant! Curiouser and curiouser. Sort of like a parallel universe within a mirror, but in this case the universe the mirror relfects is sourced by it's relfection!

Here is what Wikedpedia says --

n the Hindu religion, Brahman (ब्रह्मन्, brahman, nominative brahma, ब्रह्म) is the unchanging, infinite, immanent, and transcendent reality which is the Divine Ground of all matter, energy, time, space, being, and everything beyond in this Universe.

But that is not really it!

Here is something else written in English on the subject. http://hinduism.about.com/od/basics/a/brahman.htm

Let us look at what Hinduism holds to be the Absolute. The ultimate goal and Absolute of Hinduism is termed "Brahman" in Sanskrit......
Brahman, as understood by the scriptures of Hinduism, as well as by the 'acharyas' of the Vedanta school, is a very specific conception of the Absolute. This unique conception has not been replicated by any other religion on earth, and is exclusive to Hinduism. Thus to even call this conception of Brahman "God" is, in a sense, somewhat imprecise...... Brahman is not a "He" at all, but rather transcends all empirically discernable categories, limitations and dualities.

What is Brahman?
In the 'Taittariya Upanishad' II.1, Brahman is described in the following manner: "satyam jnanam anantam brahma", "Brahman is of the nature of truth, knowledge and infinity." Infinite positive qualities and states have their existence secured solely by virtue of Brahman's very reality. Brahman is a necessary reality, eternal..., fully independent, non-contingent, and the source and ground of all things. Brahman is both immanently present in the realm of materiality, interpenetrating the whole of reality as the sustaining essence that gives it structure, meaning and existential being,....

The Nature of Brahman
As the primary causal substance of material reality (jagatkarana), Brahman does not arbitrarily will the coming into being of the non-Brahman metaphysical principles of matter and jivas (individuated consciousness).

Brahman is the Source
One can say that Brahman Itself (Him/Herself) constitutes the essential building material of all reality, being the antecedent primeval ontological substance from whence all things proceed......

The Final Goal & the Final Cause
As the source of Dharma, the metaphysical ordering principles inherent in the design of the cosmos, Brahman can be viewed as the Formal Cause. And as the final goal of all reality, Brahman is also the Final Cause. ........ These views about the nature of Brahman are in general keeping with the theological teachings of both the Advaita and the Vishishta-Advaita schools of Hinduism.

Brahman is the Ultimate Reality
All reality has its source in Brahman. All reality has its grounding sustenance in Brahman. It is in Brahman that all reality has its ultimate repose..

.................................................. ..............................................


Couple of things.. this essay talks of UNMANIFEST BRAHMAN,, not just "Brahman", as all is Brahman,, and I do disagree that this concept has only been developed/practiced/understood by the Hindues. There are others.

more later.

Brilliant. In a very impersonal way.

[measle_weasel]

It could be that you are not ready for this view (and is why you see Brahman tech as sophistry),, as it is apparent by many messages on this board, some are not ready for the mystical view.. and some are not even ready for the monotheistic view

But you yourself are still talking in terms of "Deities" as being the Religion..more than one God. Probably you can not get your mind outside this even... or are still stuck on being against the "vengefull" monotheistic God -- HIM,, mankind needed so mankind would not become like an animal, so you have taken a step back to polytheism. You have such contempt for the "All Mighty and Wrathfull God" that you have failed to even take a step most people find themselves on.. having moved beyond the vengeful God to the all powerfull loving monotheistic God and looking forward to the Mystical vision of God being all things, everywhere, you, me, everthing.-- the beautiful, interesting, creative, supurbe, wonderful, meaningful, God. Get off the idea of a vengefull, wrathfull, HIM -- which is true, but it is in the past, we have moved on in our understanding. Most people respond to the loving side, these days, and God doesn't have to be such a strict parent as he once was. We have grown up.

By saying someone is "not ready" for your view, you imply that your view is the correct one, and others have just not gained the level of enlightenment that you yourself have, implying they are ignorant, and wrong. The entire second paragraph also reflects the same mentality. Does this not contradict your message towards the end, that "And still -- the basic need from all people, irregardless of their view, what ever it might be,, in order for us to progress.. is for the religious minded person to refrain from thinking/stating.. "My way is It!" "I have the Answers and anybody that disagrees is wrong""?

And still -- the basic need from all people, irregardless of their view, what ever it might be,, in order for us to progress.. is for the religious minded person to refrain from thinking/stating.. "My way is It!" "I have the Answers and anybody that disagrees is wrong".. or even,, "This is all there is to it, and that is final". This attitude,,, irregardless of what stage one is on,, is the true killer of progress. This is why the elite are now bringing in this New Vision -- to manipulate it, use it, and have you say after accepting it -- "Now I have it."

I completely agree. People need to stop thinking they have the one true, absolutely objective view on how reality works and what God really is while subtly condenscending others who disagree :)

[dedicate]

Well, I did say, "Could",, it "could be you are not ready for the view.", not like you say, "not ready". The Brahmanic view, is not easy to understand. Not easy to understand at all. This is why, I say, most people should not concern themselves with it, as they are most likely not ready for it.-- and definitely not ready to practice the religion associated with it. A person doesn't have to understand it to "get to heaven" or be enlightened. It's not really that important to understand.

When it comes to the the Daughers of Fria - a person who has added a thread on her Religion, when it came to adding my two cents, I was supportive. I find nothing wrong with a woman exclusive religion worshipping a deity,, I think it is Venus.

I don't know why the have to be against monotheistic religions, though. Cant they see the concept? Or is it the "vengefull HIM" they don't like? Well, get over it, most of us have.

But back to the main point. I'm presenting a theory of human spiritual evolution.- mankind is going through, has gone through and mankind will continue to go through as he evolves his understanding and practice of religion. So, yes there are more evolved ways of understanding God. -- gross materialism (which reflects the Brahmanic view in a less evolved way!), polytheism, monotheism (vengeful then loving), mystical view(which reflects the polythistic view in a more evolved way!), and the Brahmanic view.

Maybe this is what you see in the essay as "subtley condescending".-- seperating people into groups higher in understanding and lower. Well, that's life. That's how everything in life is. Nothing one can done about it. All one can do is point out the higher is not better and there is no need to look down on those who have not gone further than where they are. And from a very real point of view, those who are far behind in gross materialistic view could advance rapidly trough all the stages and surpase any person on Earth in a very short time. All they need is the information. Also, I believe, all religions should be pointing this out to their people -- "You will go beyond your present understanding, and the present understanding is like a rung on a ladder, still usefull, still of value, but it is important to make progress."

You may see this as a "sublte condescention".-- I don't know. I can see how someone would be offended by this theory, -- like it's implying certain people are not evolved. But we are all on a level of understanding of all things, an evolution of our soul-- not just religion -- that is lesser or more than others. YOu might be a Mozart and I might still be unable to read a note,,, you might be Einstein and I might be unable to add fractions,, you might be a good husband and provider and I can't keep a job or a wife. We are all on different levels of understanding and abilities. This is a fact. Now if I choose to be condescending that is not good,, But if I point out the fact of it, that does not make me an elitist bigot.

Then to think people are not so evolved as others in the grand scheme of things is splitting hairs... Most of us are pretty much on the same level, really. Not much differance here on Earth when it comes down to it.. Then: What a true miracle you were born a human being.. that says much about your value and evolution right there.

If anybody has a problem with the theory of souls evolution,, or the Brahmanic view,,, or the way it is presented.. please post. No problem.

[rowan22]

When it comes to religion I wonder whether the real issue rests with tolerance. Trying to argue the rationale of religion is like telling someone that they should prefer red over blue because blue is a better colour.

How a person experiences spirituality is as individual as their taste in colour, and should be just as unassailably accepted. So long as there are ethical equivalencies which respect personal freedom which is the foundation of free will then there really should be no problem.

The problems arise when religious dogma seeks to establish codes of behaviour which are antithetical to basic human freedoms. In that case (for me) it comes down to looking at religion through a different set of criteria.

Restriction from the organismic human experience of reality should not be accepted as a normal option.

Religion if it has a relevance should expand the human experience of reality. It should build on instinctual foundations and extend that experience into a more inclusive acceptance of all perceptual stages and positions in the process of realisation of what has been called by many names down the ages.

When religion preaches subservience to tyranny, or denial of any emotion not sanctified and squeezed through the dogmatic sieve I would say it deserves to be rejected as a false religion designed by the mind of men for the interests of "men" and not man.

[dedicate]

Yes. Modes of modern religion tend to hamper development, by being exclusive and intolerant. IE>. you must be part of this group,, you must not be part of another group.. But the Yogi understands, "All people worship the imparishable Brahman, even the evil man.", For who is the true enjoyer of the evil man's fruits? but the Lord?, thus tolerance is gained toward all people. (Bhagavad Gita 9:23-25) which states:"They too worship Me, but in an improper way".

In the Bhagavad Gita, Ch.8:1 Arguna asks Krishna -- "What is Brahman?">>>

The Supreme Lord said: Brahman is the Supreme imperishable..... Brahman... the omniscient, the oldest, the controller, smaller than the smallest (and bigger than the biggest), the sustainer of everything, the inconceivable, the self luminous like the sun, and as transcendental or beyond the material reality; (8.09).....

I shall briefly explain to you (the process to attain) that goal which the knowers of the Vedas call the imperishable; into which the ascetics, freed from attachment, enter; and desiring which people lead a life of celibacy. (8.11)

Controlling all the (nine) doors of the body, the abode of consciousness; focusing the mind on the heart and Prana in the cerebrum, and engaged in yogic practice; (8.12)

One who leaves the body while meditating on Brahman and uttering OM, the sacred monosyllable sound of Brahman, attains the Supreme goal. (8.13)........

This unmanifest state is called the imperishable or Brahman. This is said to be the ultimate goal. Those who reach My Supreme abode do not return (or take rebirth). (8.21)....

This entire universe is pervaded by Me, the unmanifest Brahman. All beings depend on (or remain in) Me (like a chain depends on gold). I do not depend on them. (See also 7.12) (9.04) ( From a Dvaitic or dualistic view point, waves depend on the ocean, the ocean does not depend on the waves. But, from a Advaitic or non-dualistic point of view, as stated in verse 9.05 below, the question of wave abiding in the ocean or the ocean abiding in the wave does not arise, because there is no wave or ocean. It is water only. Similarly, everything is a manifestation of Brahman only. (Gita 7.19))

[armoured_amazon]

I'm glad I have an active relationship with my Creator, because I don't have to worry about understanding texts. I hope everyone else has that relationship too.:)

[swethirte]

Just a couple things, swethert -- If I wasn't being self-indulgent, it may not be interesting. I'm trying to keep a subject about which absolutely not much can be said, interesting. That means self-indulgence.

It could be that you are not ready for this view (and is why you see Brahman tech as sophistry),, as it is apparent by many messages on this board, some are not ready for the mystical view.. and some are not even ready for the monotheistic view (though I believe, most all are ready for that by now! And it is their resistance that prevents them from seeeee ing).. There is only one God.

But you yourself are still talking in terms of "Deities" as being the Religion..more than one God. Probably you can not get your mind outside this even... or are still stuck on being against the "vengefull" monotheistic God -- HIM,, mankind needed so mankind would not become like an animal, so you have taken a step back to polytheism. You have such contempt for the "All Mighty and Wrathfull God" that you have failed to even take a step most people find themselves on.. having moved beyond the vengeful God to the all powerfull loving monotheistic God and looking forward to the Mystical vision of God being all things, everywhere, you, me, everthing.-- the beautiful, interesting, creative, supurbe, wonderful, meaningful, God.

I find your tone extremely condescending I'm afraid. To claim I am not ready for your view implies that yours is better, or more evolved as you put it, when in fact experience tells me the opposite is true.

[swethirte]

Well, I did say, "Could",, it "could be you are not ready for the view.", not like you say, "not ready". The Brahmanic view, is not easy to understand. Not easy to understand at all.

If something is not easy to understand, that's often because it's b@ll@cks. Certainly in the case of religious dogma, anyway.

[dedicate]

Yes,, it's not easy to understand.-- the Brahman view. One thing difficult for most people to grasp,, is this: once found,, lost.

Truism like this make it difficult to understand. But I would imagine anyone who has practiced toaism would have little difficulty understanding. As would many many others.

So, one has to be initiated to fully understand that which can not be understood, and relate to that which can not be related to.

So............... I'm presenting a logical theory of evolution of the soul via God-Given,, God ordained Religion, to show THERE IS SOMETHING TO WHAT IM SPEAKING OF. It's not just made up jargon. There is logic there.-- the logic points to the Beyond, Transcendence, and Bliss of the Divine. That which all mankind has been evolving toward gradually from dense consciousness to super consciousness if you like.-- the Religion changes as the consciousness changes; or the instructions grow more advanced,,, and the understanding grows more advanced along with it.. This can be shown.

But we are talking about the soul and religion and God. Big subjects. The changes in consciousness are like quantum leaps into new reality! Transforming, transcending, awakenings! each step. So there could be something to the Brahmanic view,, just don't see it yet.

[dedicate]

Those who realize and know the absolute oneless-ness-nessless,, remain in spirit and have this to say. You can hear them speaking these words in silence and joy.


"Even as birds, O beloved, return to their tree for rest,
thus all things find their rest in Atman, the Supreme Spirit.
All things find their final peace in their inmost Self, the Spirit."

"Wherefrom do all these worlds come? They come from space.
All beings arise from space, and into space they return;
space is indeed their beginning, and space is their final end."

"Even as a great fish swims along the two banks of a river,
first along the Eastern bank, and then the Western bank,
in the same way the Spirit of man moves along beside his two dwellings;
this waking world and the land of sleep and dreams."


"There is something beyond our mind which abides in silence.
It is the supreme mystery beyond thought.
Let one's mind and one's subtle body rest upon that, and not rest upon anything else.
God is sound and silence.
Attain therefore contemplation, contemplation in silence on him."

"The earth seems to rest in silent meditation;
and the waters and the sky and the heavens
seem all to be in meditation."

"On Earth, those who reach greatness
achieve it through concentration."

"Even as a man who is asleep awakes,
but when he is asleep does not know he is going to awake,
so a part of the subtle invisible Spirit comes as a messenger to the body,
without the body being conscious of its arrival."


"The soul is the consciousness of life. It is the light of the heart.
Forever remaining the same,
the Spirit of man wanders in the world of waking
and also in the world of dreams.
But in the rest of deep sleep he goes beyond this world and its fleeting forms"



"Oh life-giving sun, offspring of the Lord of Creation,
solitary Seer of heaven,
spread thy light and withdraw thy blinding splendor
that I might behold thy radiant form:
That Spirit far away within thee is my inmost Spirit"

"When the soul is in silent quietness it arises and leaves the body,
and reaching the Supreme Spirit finds there its body of light.
It is the land of infinite liberty where,
beyond its mortal body, the Spirit of man is free."

"The wise who knows the Self as bodiless within the bodies,
as unchanging among changing things, as great and omnipresent,
does never grieve.
That self cannot be gained by the Veda, nor by understanding,
nor by much learning."

"It is true that the body is mortal, that it is under the power of death,
but it is also the dwelling place of Atman, the Spirit of immortal life. ...
when a man is in the joy of the spirit, he is free from all bondage,
the bondage of pleasure and pain."


"From joy all beings have come, by joy they all live,
and unto joy they all return."

"Where there is joy, there is creation.
Where there is no joy, there is no creation.
Know the nature of joy."

"He is everlasting and omnipresent,
infinite in the great and infinite in the small.
He is the Eternal whom the sages see as the source of all creation."

[dedicate]

Copied from a forum webpost 2005: hypermart.net

The Yoga Sutras, scholars tell us, was written sometime during the period from the 4th to the 2nd centuries BCE. No more accurate date is available since ancient Indian history lacks secure dates on which to pin their major literary and philosophical texts. The word sutra means thread, as in linking thoughts, the way we say ‘I lost the thread’. A sutra contains a number of linking thoughts about a subject expressed quite tersely, without elucidation, and so normally needs a commentary to explain it. That commentary then invites a further commentary and so it goes on ad infinitum.

Little is known of Patanjali, who compiled the sutras, other than to assume that he was stitching together diverse material about yoga that had been in existence in oral form for many hundreds of years before he gathered it into a single text. The Yoga Sutras form the basis of Yoga Philosophy, one of the six schools of Indian philosophy, and its core beliefs informed Buddhist philosophy.

Patanjali’s text concentrates on Raja Yoga, which means royal or kingly yoga. This is a form of yoga that is concerned with controlling the mind mainly through meditation, unlike the much later Hatha Yoga, the form of yoga mostly practised in the west, which developed more fully asanas and pranayama, the physical positions and breath–control. The yoga sutras do not describe specific asanas or pranayama but concentrate on the psychological and spiritual aspects of yoga. The focus is on silencing thoughts, so that an inner peace prevails, in which the Self, our true nature, can be discovered and realised.

In the early days of Yoga, the asanas were less important for physical exercise, and were intended for purposes of meditation. The classic asana for meditation is the Lotus position, with the legs crossed, one foot placed on top of the opposite thigh, the hands placed on the knees facing upwards, and the thumb and first finger touching. In this position the body becomes so comfortably seated and firmly locked on the floor that it allows the mind and emotions to quieten and in this position pranayama exercises and then meditation can be performed. This is how it is described in the Svetasvatara Upanishad;

The wise person holds his body straight, with head, neck and chest in line, withdraws his mind and senses towards the heart, and on the raft of the spirit crosses safely through dangerous waters.

Subduing all activity and regulating his breath, the wise person breathes in and out gently through the nostrils. Let him control his mind, which is like a chariot pulled by wild horses.

Patanjali says that yoga practice is the means to still the mind, thereby allowing the inner Self, our true ruler, to become isolated in itself and to find liberation:

Yoga is when the Self rests in its own being, in our own original nature which is pure awareness.

Yoga is a means by which we can gain subtle and discriminating knowledge, a wisdom that is hard to come by when following our ordinary way of living. One of the most difficult of all the distinctions we have to make is to clarify the confusion between what is the real Self and what is the mind, a confusion that lies at the heart of much of our perplexity,

The human self is under the power of the forces of nature, and thus it falls into confusion. Because of this confusion the self cannot become conscious of the Spirit who dwells within and whose power gives us the power to act. The self is thus whirled along the rushing stream of muddy waters of the forces of nature and becomes unsteady and wavering, filled with confusion and full of desires, lacking concentration and disturbed with pride.

If we can separate our little self, our ego, from our true Self within, which is Spirit, then we can attain discriminating knowledge, and the wisdom of the heart will spontaneously flower. We then understand intuitively and naturally just who we truly are, and what it is that we truly need. This inner truth is Self-realisation, the height of yoga training.

One of the goals of yoga is a steady and tranquil mind, since a continuing sense of calm and tranquillity allows healthy energies to accumulate. Yoga aims at altering our heady life of thinking, our rational mind, which is based on our brain’s frontal lobes, and which normally seeks external knowledge, into a mind that can experience a different kind of internal knowledge. Since unsteadiness of mind is the main hurdle to acquiring this experience, yoga aims to steady the mind so it can be concentrated exclusively on the Self and not on the outside objects that it normally attaches to. By withdrawing the senses inwards we try to break this attachment.

Patanjali’s theory about the isolation of the Self differs from a teaching that is often quoted in yoga books, a teaching which explains that the union yoga seeks is a merging of our individual Self with the Supreme Self, Braman or God. This is the philosophy of another of the Indian schools, the Vedanta, and the reason why it is so often quoted is that most of the Indian yogis who taught in the West were followers of the Advaita Vedanta philosophy, the most influential of all Indian philosophies, and the one held by most educated Hindus. The Swamis Vivekananda, Shivananda, Muktananda, Satchidananda, Parahamsa Yogananda, and Vishnu-devananda are or were all Advaita Vedantists and consequently taught this philosophy to their students and promulgated it in their writings.

Patanjali’s yoga philosophy differs from the Advaita Vedantists not only in the idea of the isolation of the Self. To Patanjali the Self and the world are both real, and have a real existence, whereas for the vedantists the world is unreal, being a manifestation of maya, or illusion. I don’t want to get too bogged down in a philosophical squabble, but I think it’s worth trying to clarify this point, otherwise a confusion that is very widespread will continue.

People often have the impression that Hindu philosophy believes that the world is an illusion, a dream, an appearance, or an hallucination which is called maya. It is just a play, or lila, of God, created by Brahman, the Supreme Self or divine principle. The phenomenal world is seen as a kind of movie, which is unreal, but when we are ignorant and do not realise this, we believe it to be real.

There exists a real-life movie example that can illuminate this. One of the first film screenings ever held was in Paris at the turn of the 20th Century. People had never seen a moving picture, so when there was a scene of a speeding train pulling into a station, spectators panicked and ran out of their seats, fearing for their lives. They took the illusion for real, and reacted wrongly, out of ignorance. The Vedantists say that our worldly life, like the movie, is an illusion, and that Brahman, the Supreme Self, is like a film director who creates this appearance and presents it to us. In ignorance we think this movie of life is real and so we take it seriously, suffering under its terms and conditions. But if we become liberated, through yoga, we realise that it is only an illusion and that it has no reality or meaning whatsoever. It is just an entertainment.

The Vedantists say that the only true reality is Brahman, the eternal and unchanging principle. Everything else is a manifestation of Brahman, and consequently is not real, but is an illusion. Since the world, and everything in it, is not real, the aim of yoga, for the Advaita, is to wake up from this dream and become liberated from it. This allows us to realise our true Self, called Atman. We discover that Atman, the inner Self, is as real as Brahman because the two are alike, and the aim of yoga is for the Atman and the Brahman to merge. This merging the Vedantists also call Self-realisation, and it represents the complete identification of the Self with God, Braman. This teaching of the Advaita Vedantists has its basis in the Upanishads, the ancient speculative philosophical texts of India. This is from the Chandogya Upanishad,

The whole universe comes from the highest Spirit, Brahman, and will return to the Spirit. In silence we must direct our deepest desires with prayers, faith and vision to the Spirit, Brahman, to realize our Self.

The Self that dwells in our hearts is the Self that can only be realised in the silence of understanding that we are but Spirit, and that our minds and hearts must be truthful and pure, finding, beyond words, joy in the essence of our being.

This Self who gives rise to all works, desire, odours, tastes and who embraces the whole universe, who is beyond words, who is pure joy and who is always in your heart is the higher Spirit, Brahman. When my ego dies and finds its restful place, I will find him.

The Vedantists consider the coming together of Atman and Brahman, the individual self merging with the supreme self, as the ultimate aim of yoga. Since the Atman and Brahman are effectively the same, it implies that the individual Self is pure Spirit and is therefore identical with Brahman, God. The Chandogya Upanishad teaches this identity,

There is nothing in the cosmos that doesn’t come from that one being. Of everything that exists, this Being is the innermost Self. He is the truth, the Self Supreme. And you are that!

Even though we cannot see it the Self is within all things and there is nothing that doesn’t come from Him.

This invisible and subtle essence is the Spirit of the whole universe. That is reality. That is truth. And you are that!

The well-known saying of the Vedantists ‘You are that’ means that you and the universe are the same, that your consciousness and that of the universe are the same consciousness, and since the universe is God, you too are God-like. The Vedanta philosophy is a monistic and absolutist philosophy, believing that there exists only one reality, the one without a second, that of the divine Brahman merged with the Atman. Brahman is unseen and can’t be felt or heard, but it is the power and primary principle that spontaneously manifests itself as the foundation of all creation. It is also spiritual in nature, so the Vedantists consider the entire universe as spirit, as the Upanishads state,

The Eternal Spirit is everywhere, to the left of you, to the right of you, above and below, in front and behind. What is this world but Spirit?

Everything is based on Spirit; Spirit is the foundation of the universe, Spirit is Brahman.

But Patanjali and his yoga philosophy doesn’t believe this. It believes the world of nature is a real world, not a mask of illusion. Patanjali does not believe that the world is an hallucination, so he has no interest in freeing us from the illusion that the world is a dream. He sees yoga’s goal as freeing us from a different illusion – the illusion that we are the same as our body, mind and senses. As A.G. Mohan says,

..for most people the body is the primary object of which we are aware, so that most of us identify ‘self’ in some way with our physical being. We experience ourselves, our environment and other people through our bodies.

Because of the nature of perception, we mistakenly identify ourselves with the phenomenal world, and fail to understand that our real identity is with our true Self. To isolate and realise that Self is the aim of classical Yoga. And for Patanjali our experience of the world only makes sense if we admit the equal and independent reality of Nature and Spirit.

Patanjali’s philosophy is not monist, believing in only one being or reality, but is dualistic. He believes that there exists not one singular reality, Brahman, but two realities which are opposed - Nature and Spirit – that nonetheless work together in a kind of marriage. Nature is material; it forms our body, mind and senses and is forever churning and changing over time, while the Spirit is our inner Self - formless, changeless and eternal. Working together through daily experience, they enable us over time to discover the true nature of reality.

I think Patanjali presents his philosophy in this dual way because this mirrors how we ordinarily perceive the world. Our usual way of looking at the world is to assume a separation and difference between our subjective being and the objective world. Patanjali explains in the sutras that this normal perception is false and displays avidya, which he calls ignorance, and this seems to be our starting position. Perhaps he thought it best to describe the world as we see it, so that we can understand our erroneous view and discover, through yoga, how to replace our confusion and ignorance with true knowledge.

[dedicate]

This thread had some interesting comments. I'm wondering if anyone can add anything here to the concept.. "Seeing God as Nothing".

[armoured_amazon]

God helped me out today, without texts. Thanks, Dad!

[dedicate]

So, then, why don't you go live in a bubble, Armoured Amazon?

Everyone has the experience of God in their life. To say people don't need the instruction to see this, is not going to be the point of this thread. Maybe, you don't need the instruction, AA. Good for you. You may be a saint for all I know. But you may also be a free-thinking egoist. For you to find out!

[armoured_amazon]

So, then, why don't you go live in a bubble, Armoured Amazon?

Everyone has the experience of God in their life. To say people don't need the instruction to see this, is not going to be the point of this thread. Maybe, you don't need the instruction, AA. Good for you. You may be a saint for all I know. But you may also be a free-thinking egoist. For you to find out!

Children aren't well versed in all the ancient texts, and yet they get it right far more often than us adults. Says it all, doesn't it? I guess I don't 'get' what the point is. Gum-flappin' is what keeps us separated from God.

[dedicate]

I'm speaking about the hear and now, not just ancient texts. I don't know what your point is.. bring in the children.

Children aren't well versed in all the ancient texts, and yet they get it right far more often than us adults. Say's it all doesn't it? --

I don't see how that "say's it all".. It's nice to be a child, very nice,, but it's better to be an adult, even though it is more difficult.. Say's it all doesn't it?


What I see from your post is subtle antagonism,, but rather than make some pertinent comments, you just decide to throw a blanket over it, saying, "Nothing here folks." Correct me if i'm wrong.

[nioz]

God is uncomparable, unimaginable.

[dedicate]

God is uncomparable, unimaginable. --

Close.!Real close. Any closer you would be on the other side.

[om_tat_sat]

Neti, neti.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Neti_neti

[tannah]

This thread had some interesting comments. I'm wondering if anyone can add anything here to the concept.. "Seeing God as Nothing".

I read a book called "God is silence" back in the 80s, which I found very inspirational and influential, to the point where it led me to seeing this same concept in everyday things.

Not only is God complete/perfect fullness, but it's perfect emptiness too.
We know that if one only deals in 0 and 100% that percentages are of no real use. They are only useful in numbers/percentages reaching those two extremes, 82% with a 5% projected growth over the next 3 years, for example..


Well the number 9, for example, is the same as 0. Buckminster-Fuller really proved this with what he called Indig numbers. I doubt it's appropriate to prove it here, but the research is there to be studied.
The number 9 can be seen as perfectly full, but it has a second face, as it's also the 0, perfectly empty. The 0 is also perfectly silent, so does that mean when something is perfectly full it is also silence? I think it does.

[geolaureate8]

Nice topic dedicate. I was actually just learning about Brahman in my Philosophy - World Religions class. It was very irritating to see the class getting confused and angry about not understanding Brahman, the world being an illusion, and everyone actually being this Brahman. Basically what Icke teaches. Everything is an illusion and we are all expressions of the same infinite consciousness (Brahman). Peope were like "What?! What's the point of Hinduism if everyhing is illusion? How are we all Brahman?" etc. Just really ignorant questions. Questioning is good, but not when they are dumbass questions based on understanding.

[dedicate]

Yes. This is the topic. -- Brahman. It maybe the only word for what we are speaking of. Those Hindues! They know eveything!

All good points. I can't say any of it is wrong as most all of it seems close,, and I'm not even sure what to say about Brahman myself.

Sometimes I fall back on my Hermetics and Kabbala,, and resort to certain symbols and pictures. For some reason this helps the humans understand things.

What I think of is a 7 layer cake. The first layer being the physical dimension, what we see, touch and taste. Isn't it nice how the Universe has given us such concrete things to work from? But what is different about this cake is the second layer on top of the first includes and IS the first also. So one may be able to say, "There is just the physical world" as the second layer isn't always so apparent and seems to be the physical world.

So, maybe the second layer is what gives life to and animates the physical. The Third Layer is the driving force behind the animation (think of a cartoon which has no third layer..??!! no force driving the animated object). Maybe the fourth layer gives meaning and reason -- this would be the realm of the mind.

Now we have four layers on the cake. And none of them are seperate really! And one could say,, the mind is the source for (or true nature of) everything!

Now then we are going higher and higher into other dimensions,, knowing fully that it is not some other place,, knowing these higher dimensions are here and now with us and not somewhere else.

Until one reaches the the 7th layer of the cake.. The Brahman layer.. which of course is the entire cake... but the interesting thing about this is we have transcended so far beyond beyond beyond.. that IT IS NOT.