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eternal_spirit
12-08-2009, 06:44 PM
http://theshepherdsvoice.org/islam/images/giraffe_vs_muslims.jpg
Parental love is instinctive both in animals and in humans. These pictures are to show the level of brainwashing that it takes to make a parent harm and mutilate his own toddler to appease his imaginary deity.
http://theshepherdsvoice.org/islam/images/ashura2.jpg
A Shiite mother rejoices after inflicting wounds on the head of her toddler
http://theshepherdsvoice.org/islam/images/ashura11.jpg
A loving father teaching "religious values" to his son, Islamic way.
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A proud mother watching her son bleed. The more pain the greater the reward. After this she is assured of paradise.



Some Shiites believe cutting children honors a 7th-century Muslim leader
• Kids as young as a monthold and men as old as 100 are slashed
• Ashura marks the decapitation of their most revered Saint Imam Hussein
• Rite continues despite being banned in Lebanon
http://web.archive.org/web/20070218104952/http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/2007/WORLD/meast/01/30/ashoura.children.ap/vert.ashoura.ap.jpg
Young Iraqi Shiite boys have their foreheads slashed to honor the Ashura, the tenth day of Muharram when Imam Hussein was killed in the Battle of Karbala in the year 680.


NABATIYEH, Lebanon (AP) -- The 6-year-old boy screamed and shook his head to avoid the razor blade. But his father held him firmly as Hajj Khodor parted the boy's black hair and sliced his forehead three times with the blade.
Ali Madani's cries became more violent as blood gushed from the wound, covering his small, terrified face.
His father and a few other men, waving daggers, broke into a religious chant, recalling how the 7th-century Shiite Muslim saint, Imam Hussein, was decapitated, his head placed on a lance. (Watch Shiites flagellate themselves as part of an Ashura ritual (http://javascript%3cb%3e%3c/b%3E:cnnVideo%28%27play%27,%27/video/world/2007/01/30/damon.iraq.shia.power.cnn%27,%272007/02/13%27%29;) http://web.archive.org/web/20070218104952/http://i.a.cnn.net/cnn/.element/img/1.5/main/icon_video.gif (http://javascript%3cb%3e%3c/b%3E:cnnVideo%28%27play%27,%27javascript%3Cb%3E%3C/b%3E:cnnVideo%28%27play%27,%27/video/world/2007/01/30/damon.iraq.shia.power.cnn%27,%272007/02/13%27%29;%27,%272007/02/01%27%29;))
In marking the holiest day of Ashura, some Shiites believe children should learn at an early age about Hussein's suffering, which is at the heart of their faith.
Lebanon's top Shiite cleric, Ayatollah Mohammed Hussein Fadlallah, has banned bloodletting during Ashura, even for adults.
Clerics in mainly Shiite Iran forbid it as well, saying the practice is un-Islamic because it harms the body.
But traditions die hard, especially in a rite as fervent and emotional as Ashura, marked Tuesday by Shiites across the Islamic world. (Attacks on Shiite pilgrims kill 38 in Iraq (http://web.archive.org/web/20070218104952/http://www.cnn.com/2007/WORLD/meast/01/30/iraq.main/index.html))
Toddlers and babies cut

In the southern Lebanese town of Nabatiyeh, hundreds of nervous young boys -- ranging from early teens to toddlers -- were ushered by their fathers into a hall hung with black banners and paintings of Hussein's last moments.
Hajj Khodor, a businessman and organizer of the Ashura ceremonies, and several other men wiped blades with alcohol before swiping each boy three or four times on the forehead.
Some boys cried and resisted, but the cutting proceeded.
"We're used to it," said Mahmoud Jaber, 43, who brought his five boys and two girls for the ritual. "We've been doing this since we were kids. I started when I was 3. It doesn't hurt because the cry of pain goes away with the faith."
Hussein Shihab, 13, wrapped in a white sheet symbolizing Hussein's burial shroud, said he felt a burning sting -- "from the alcohol" -- as the blade hit.
His father, Jaber Shihab, told Hussein not to be "a wimp," and to "be brave" as a reporter photographed him after the cut.
It was "for the sake of Hussein" that he had his head cut, the boy said. "Because blood came from Hussein's head. They cut his head off and blood flowed."
For their blood, cookies and juice

In the Ashura rites, Shiites march in huge processions, beating their chests in mourning for Hussein's martyrdom at Karbala -- a city in present-day Iraq -- in A.D. 680. The most fervent cut themselves with swords or razors or lash themselves with razor-lined chains to draw blood.
The bloodletting is a reminder of Hussein's suffering, as well as punishment for the failure of Muslims to help Hussein in his battle against Islamic ruler Yazid, leader of what became the majority Sunni branch of Islam.
Hussein was the son of Ali, the Prophet Muhammad's cousin, who Shiites believe should have been his rightful successor. The loss at Karbala effectively consigned Shiites to minority status in the Islamic world -- and it became a symbol of the sense of oppression that runs through the sect's beliefs.
Women in Ashura processions usually confine themselves to striking their chests with their fists, without drawing blood. But in Shiite areas of Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, India and elsewhere, processions of men marched drenched in blood -- along with boys.
In the Nabatiyeh hall, splashes of bright red blood covered the floor from the cutting. Some of the children held back tears and tried to put on a brave face as Hajj Khodor sliced the skin of their foreheads.
Their reward was fruit juice and cookies.
A father shoved a pacifier into his toddler's screaming mouth, the boy's forehead stained with blood.
Ali Madani's screams did not save the 6-year-old from the razor blade. His father, Bilal Madani, said his son was crying because the smell of blood scared him.
Afterward, Ali said he was happy he had gone through with it -- "for Hussein's sake."
What did he expect in return?
"God will make me do well in school," he said, sipping juice from a straw.
Hajj Khodor, wrapped in white and wearing a white turban, said he has done cuttings on boys as young as 1-month-old and men as old as 100.
Asked if it was difficult for him to hurt the children, he said: "The child doesn't understand what's going on. The parents are faithful and believe by doing this, their children will be protected and will enjoy a long life."
Hind Abinabi, a 52-year-old Shiite woman and mother of four, said to maim children was not only cruel, but also against the religion.
"When the rest of the world is going to the moon, look where these people are -- still drawing blood from their heads," she said.
One boy's screams and resistance Tuesday did pay off.
"No, no, I don't want it," the terrified boy kept yelling at the top of his voice.
After a few failed attempts, his mother quietly walked him down the stairs and out of the hall

krakhead
12-08-2009, 06:50 PM
This is the fourth time you've posted this ES. What happened? Not enough bad feeling created the last 3 times?

eternal_spirit
12-08-2009, 06:52 PM
The practice of circumcision in Islam comes from the Hadith, Shariah law and the consensus of Islamic communities.

The Hadith

Narrated Umm Atiyyah al-Ansariyyah: A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina. The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said to her: Do not cut severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband. (Sunan Abu-Dawud: book 41, number 5251, Hasan)

Part 2.
The Shariah

The following reference to Shariah law comes from Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri, Reliance of the Traveller - A Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law. This book comes with the approval al-Azhar University.

Al-Azhar University ( الأزهر الشريف) is the leading institution for Sunni learning in the Islamic world.

Circumcision was introduced to the Iranians through Islam

However the practice has a long history in the middle east and was closely related to rituals dedicated to ancient gods and goddesses of fertility. Ancient Mesopotamian had festivals where the actual organ of a young boy was cut off and dedicated to the fertility goddess. The action was later reduced to inducing an incision instead. The blood was offered to the goddess and the occasion was celebrated publicly. In the old kingdom of Egypt myth contended that blood from circumcision to guarantee the fertility realted to the river Nile, and early Egpytian myth contended that blood from circumcision of another god fell down and created the universe. In one document from Egypt a man is stating that he was circumcised with 120 males and 120 females.

The prophet Muhammad himself is quoted as saying " It is an ordinance in men and honourable in women" indicating that the practise is very strongly urged, if not required outright. Many Islamic theologians have insisted that Muhammed and indeed all prophets were born circumcised.:rolleyes: It is practised on Both male an female children born to Muslim parents as well of males of any age who join the religion. Most literature regarding circumcision is found in "hadith" these are narratives, sayings and deeds of prophet and his associates recorded by Muslim scholars and biographers. Legal discussions in the hadith literature about it resemble Talmudic discussions on issues of religious importance to Jews. Additionally the language used by the arabic sources evokes the more familiar Hebrew terminology.

Like the Quran, the different reports in the Hadith literature reveal little information concerning the reasons for male circumcision among Muslims. On the other hand reports point to one's status as a Muslim, a practitioner of the faith of Allah. Similarily other traditions teach that certain Islamic practices require the participants to be circumcise Muslims. These can include coversion, pilgramage to Mecca, inheritance, even prayer.

Shiite traditions regard the practice obligatory and tend to lead toward the extreme side on the issue. One account relates that the earth cries out to god in anguish on account of the uncircumcised. Another notes that Muslims should circumcise their sons on the seventh day, if not the earth becomes ritually contaminated for 40 days. Hadith are reported that the Prophet's grandsons Hassan and Husayn were circumcised on the seventh day after their birth and Fatima herself is quoted talking about her son's circumcision on this day.

The most common hadith attributed to the Prophet himself, mentions it in a list of practices known as "fitrah" meaning natural way or instinct. Abu Hurayra a companion of the prophet quotes, "five things are fitrah: circumcision, shaving the body with a razor, trimming the moustache, paring one's nails and plucking the hair from one's armpits" (al-Bukhari, al-Jami' al-sahih)
more here really bizzare
http://www.iranchamber.com/culture/a...rcumcision.php (http://www.iranchamber.com/culture/articles/rituals_of_circumcision.php)

eternal_spirit
12-08-2009, 06:53 PM
This is the fourth time you've posted this ES. What happened? Not enough bad feeling created the last 3 times?


It's important to tell the truth right? First thread I've dedicated to relgious rituals
Believe me this will be a good thread exposing sick rituals.

eternal_spirit
12-08-2009, 06:55 PM
Some Moslems do circumcise the women.
The following copy is from http://www.dhushara.com/book/orsin/rites/rite.htm

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As part of the initiation rite, these girls have little choice but to undergo circumcision. 13 December, 2000 Kenyan girls win circumcision ban Female Circumcision: A Summary - (Jan Goodwin Price of Honour) A major campaign of Saadawi's organization before the government closed it was to halt female circumcision. "The majority of rural Egyptian women are still circumcised. Here they remove only the clitoris; they do not do the much more extensive procedure, but even so, there are many problems. Infection, bleeding, damage to the urinary tract, sepsis, even death. Later, it may cause pain during coitus, and psychological damage. In the villages it is performed on girls just before puberty, by untrained village midwives using any kind of knife or razor, without painkillers, and in unsanitary conditions. In the middle and upper classes, it may be carried out by a doctor. The reasons given for clitoridectomies in Egypt are 'cleanliness,' and 'so that girls will not run after men."'
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In many societies, it is also believed that if the baby's head touches the clitoris during delivery, the infant will die. Female circumcision is frequently described as an "age-old Muslim ritual," when in fact it predates Islam and is even believed to be pre-Judaic. There is no mention of it in the Koran, and only a brief mention in the authentic hadiths, which states: "A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina. The Prophet said to her: 'Do not cut severely, as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband.' But because of this still debated hadz'th, some scholars of the Shari school of Islam, found mostly in East Africa, consider female circumcision obligatory. 'I'he Hanafi and most other schools maintain it is merely recommended, not essential. In the nineteenth century, women in the United States and Europe were sometimes circumcised because it was believed to relieve epilepsy, hysteria, and insanity. Today, an estimated one hundred million women have undergone the sexual mutilation. It is performed in many African countries, including Sudan, Somalia, Ethiopia, Kenya, and Chad. It is also a tradition among Muslims in Malaysia and Indonesia, and in a number of countries in the Middle East, including Egypt, the UAE, and parts of rural Saudi Arabia. Coptic Christians in Egypt and animist tribes in Africa as well as Muslims, undergo the ritual. More than 90 percent of Sudanese women undergo the most severe form of circumcision, known as "pharaonic," or infibulation, at the age of seven or eight, which removes all of the clitoris, the labia minora, and the labia majora. The sides are then sutured together, often with thorns, and only a small matchstick-diameter opening is left for urine and menstrual flow. The girl's legs are tied together and liquids are heavily rationed until the incision is healed. During this primitive yet major surgery, it is not uncommon for girls, who are held down by female relatives, to die from shock or hemorrhage of the vagina, urethra, bladder, and rectal area may also be damaged, and massive keloid scarring can obstruct walking for life. After marriage, women who have been infibulated must be forcibly penetrated. "This may take up to forty days, and when men are impatient, a knife is used," recounted Sudanese women at a conference that I attended several years ago in Cairo on the "Development of Women in the Islamic World." They also told of special honeymoon centers built outside communities so that the "screams of the brides will not be heard." At this time also, the risks of infection and hemorrhaging are high. During childbirth, the scar tissue must be cut and the opening enlarged, otherwise mother and child may die. In the mid-eighties, American Nursing magazine began advising medical practitioners in the United States how to treat such patients, since the influx of women from countries where circumcision is standard meant that U.S. health-care providers were now seeing them in hospitals here. And if such cases are not handled correctly, major complications can ensue. The tradition of female circuincis'on in many countries is so strong that circumcised women even in the United States usually request reinfibulation after each delivery.
Nawal El Saadawi 1980 The Naked (Hidden) Face of Eve 1. The Question That No One Would Answer 2. The Very Fine Membrane Called 'Honour' 3. Circumcision of Girls Alice Walker 1991 Possessing the Secret of Joy
Circumcision in Religion: Judaism, Christianity and Islam I docunent the traditional religious history of circumcision. As a male circumcised against my will, I request all religions to cease the practice of circumcision, even for men, to act as a good example against this practice of sexually-exploitive mutilation.
Abrogating Religious Laws which permit Violence to the Female Help me abrogate violent laws in ancient texts by supporting the Renewal. Help me oppose the torture of women by fundamenalists worldwide. You don't have to believe in me, just support me and I will stand against injustice against the female. Disembowelling Pregnant Women in Algeria 200 killed in a Week.

In the 12-week old fetus it is impossible to distinguish male penis from female clitoris. Neither is "unclean". (The Human Body BBC) Marcus Maybury and David Hecht - 27th November 1996 On a cloudy afternoon last month, thousands of women danced through the shabby streets of Freetown, Sierra Leone. Most were members of Bundo, a female secret society whose initiation rite includes female "circumcision' - removal of the clitoris, cutting of the labia or stitching up the genital lips. Uninitiated girls led tile throng, followed by elders and a sea of women singing, ringing bells and beating drums. It felt like a party - until the parade reached Dr Olayinka KosoThomas' clinic. There the crowd angrily chided KosoThomas, a critic of female circumcision, calling her ogborrka - uninitiated and dirty. They laid cursed charms at the clinic door and waved' placards that read Agent Of The West. Then the mob began to chant, "Let's circumcise her here and now." Practitioners of female circumcision are striking back in Sierra Leone. The procedure is common throughout Africa, a rite of passage from adolescence to adulthood in countries as disparate as Egypt, Kenya and Liberia. Since the early 90s, Western development agencies and women's groups have criticised the practice, arguing that it brutalises women and puts their health at risk. They claim that as many as 130 million African women from at least 22 countries have been cut.
The natural homology between the sex organs is not dirty or uninitiated. It is central to the way human society evolved through the independence of women to unite sexually with the partners they 'love' through both sexes retaining the germinal clitoris. Various forms of circumcision and infibulation vary from Muhammad's warning 'reduce, but do not destroy' - clearly intended to leave at least part of the clitoris - to full infubulation, removal of external genitalia and stitching up the labia to prevent unwanted pregnancy. There is a bloodthirsty rite associated with infibulation in which the husband runs through the streets holding the bloodstained dagger to declare he has 'opened' his wife for conception. Subincision is also practiced by Amazonian tribes. Estimates of the number of adolescents in Africa who undergo the procedure each year range as high as two million. The women often contract septicaemia, tetanus or gangrene. They may develop difficulty in urinating and chronic pelvic infections. Amnesty International recently recognised female genital mutilation as a human rights violation, and the ttnited States and other Western countries have begun granting asylum to women who fear that they or their daughters would be circumcised if forced to retum home. For Bundo members, the fear is that African elites, who do not usually engage in the practice, will be influenced by the campaign against circumcision and attempt to curb it. "We will continue to do it no matter what people say," insists Ines TomaElias, a Bundo elder and the mayor of Bo, the country's second largest city. What are the Bundo protecting? Their secrets, they say. The society constitutes 90 per cent of the women of Sierra Leone and is-a powerful traditional institution, respected and feared by the male dominated establishment. Every year Bundo elders take pubescent girls deep into the bush for several weeks to receive teybos, or things that are forbidden to discuss with the uninitiated, particularly men. "All you can know is thatwhen the girls retum they are women," says Toma Elias.
These Kenyan women are among the 130 million African women whose culture demands that they be circumcised. Even some anti-circumcision Africans say the Western critics have got it wrong. Aja Tounkara Diallo Fatimato, a Guinean gynaecologist, opposed the practice on health grounds. Still, Dr Tounkara, who was circumcised as an eight-year-old, says, 'Westerners think African men force us to do it. They say only Muslims do it ... [They say] we cannot experience sexual pleasure - they don't know what they are talking about." In Sierra Leone, the debate is further complicated because the Bundo is a rare civic org in a virtually ungoverned society. Weary of the toll the civil war was taking on their families, the women of Sierra Leone united in 1994 to found a group called the Women's Forum to push for peace. Educated, mostly uncircumcised women organised nationally, while the Bundo mobilised locally, uniting women from both the rebel and the amiy camps. The Forum won support for intemationaflv supervised elections, and the first democratically elected govemment in nearly 30 years was installed in April. The fight over circumcision has cnished that solidarity. Local women politicians seeking the support of Bundo members are stirring fears that the campaign against genital mutilation is an attempt to abolish the secret society. Circumcision opponents disagree. At her Freetown clinic , KosoThomas says, 'I am not against the Bundo secret society. I am against the suffering of the girlchild."
The female human has naturally evolved to have at least as intense an orgasm as the male. Sexual arousal is accompained by blood flow to the labia and clitoris just as it is to the penis. This is central to the nature of human courtship and the expression of bonding between the sexes. It is not something 'unclean' or 'inappropriate' about the female anatomy. Infibulation - an Extreme The most thorough method of securing the virginity of the bride is by the operation of infibulation (see below). This is a variety of female circumcision. As with innumerable other primitive practices, it has become adapted to a purpose the very opposite of that which originally led to its adoption. Unless special means are employed, as is done in all primitive societies by the introduction of a foreign body or by immediate sexual intercourse, female circumcision, when completely carried out in its original form, results in an occlusion by cicatricial tissue more complete than that presented by the hymeneal membrane. In Egypt, where, in the lower classes, the operation is usually carried out by a barber, who, seizing all the soft parts in one hand, cuts them at one stroke with a razor, adhesions invariably result which necessitate considerable cutting at the time of the first delivery. The original intention of the operation having long since become obsolete, the cicatricial closure has been utilised as a means of securing virginity; the formation of adhesions is encouraged by immobilising the parts or by stitches, only a small opening being contrived by inserting a quill during the healing process. The practice is universal in Nubia, south of Gebel Silsineh and in the Sudan, and is also in use in Abyssinia, Somaliland and West Africa. In some parts of Darfur and Kordofan no girl can find a husband unless she has undergone the operation. The assistance of a midwife has generally to be invoked in order to render possible the consummation of the marriage, and the operation is frequently repeated after each confinement. In some places the husband ceremonially rushes through the streets with a bloodied knife to announce he has impregnated his wife. The introduction of the practice is generally set down by writers to the Arabs; but this is denied both by the Arabs and by the natives. Infibulation is condemned by Muslims. (Briffault 3 344) · Bees disrupt ceremony 30-1-1997 FREETOWN -- Thousands of bees disrupted a female circumcision ceremony in Sierra Leone, putting half the 100 girls taking part in hospital, one of the girls said. Hospital sources said that some girls who had been mutilated were also being treated for serious bleeding and fever. · August 1996 Egypt: A girl dies in hospital after an attempt to circumcise her. · July 1997 Egypt: Parliament votes to reinstate female circumcision in public hospitals after protests from muslim clerics to overthrow the ban in the interests of moral 'decency'.

Waris Dirie recalls the horrors of her childhood-mutilation and reveals the enigma for her and exreme difficulty of sexual pleasure. She had to be operated on as an adult before she could have sexual relations. For a live commentary get a Genesis CD NZ Herald Nov 98 Dirie's mother believing she was doing the best thing for her daughter, walked her into the brush, held her down and told her to bite on a root. A gypsy woman cut at the lithe girl's genitalia, using a dirty, broken razor blade. "I heard the sound of the dug blade sawing back and forth through my skin," Dirie writes in Desert Flower. The woman used thorns from an acacia tree to puncture holes in her sldn and sew her up, leaving a tiny hole the diameter of a matchstick, through wlich urine and menstrual blood could dribble. My legs were completely numb, but the pain between them was so intense that I wished I would die." Five-year-old Wans was left in a hut to recuperate, her infibulation. Two cousins died from infection after the procedure, carried out to ensure virginity and make girls marriageable commodities. Uncircumcised girls are seen as unclean and treated as outcasts. For more than 20 years Dirie suffered health probleim and side-effects from , her radical circumcision. Menstruation was a long, agonising process each month, as the menstrual blood backed up in her body. Finally she got up courage to visit a London doctor who operated to make the aperture more of a normal size. Writes Dirie in Desert Flower. "Waris was a new woman. I could sit down on the toilet and pee whoosh! There's no way to explain what a new freedom that was.' But the doctor could not undo the damage which had been done to her genitalia during the circumcision It's when we touch on the subject of sex that Dirie becomes agitated. "Please," she implores, "lefs not talk about that. Just use your imagination." It doeswt take much. Women who have been htibulated, the most extreme form of FGM, have had their entire clitoris, labia minora and the inner surface of the labia minora removed. They will never enjoy a normal sex hfe, never experience an orgasm, something most New Zealand women woldd find mcomprehensible. In Desert Flower Dirie is more forthcoming about her. jazz musician boyfrined and father of her 17-month-old son, Aleeke. "Besides the health problems that I still struggle with, I will never know the pleasures of sex that have been denied me," she writes. "I feel incomolete, crippled and knowing that there's nothing I can do to change that is the most hopeless feeling of all. When I met Dana, I fmally fell in love and wanted to experience the joys of sex with a man. But if you ask me today, 'Do you ENJOY sex?' I would say not in the traditional way. I simply erjoy being plhysically close to Dana because I love him.' For Dirie the effort of sharing something which has troubled her for so long and affects her life every day is tough. "It never gets easier. It is emotionally draining to talk about something which has been locked deep for so long." But for the esdmated 130 million women who have already been circumcised and the 6000 girls a day who have FGM performed on them, Dirie keeps going, keeps going, keeps travelling. "The hardest part is to start somewhere. Everybody is waiting, they don't kncvw what to do. The West are aware of the problem. But they're told to back off, it's none of your business."
A Shrine to the Pain of the Girl Child The following is a shrine to the unnecessary and unspeakable pain of the girl child.
Girls wait to be circumcised.
Any objects on hand in any condition are used. The tradtion passes responsibility to older women to mutilate the young ones of their own sex so that they will not be unclean in the eyes of the men. The source is the desire of the men to control the fertility of 'their' females, even at grave risk and human bondage and misery.
Faces of misery
A girl is dragged to a place to lie down. A girl has her leggs trussed together. Girls frequently die from loss of blood or from infection.
Hawa Adan Mohamed was born and raised in Somalia. At the age of 8 she underwent the most radical form of mutilation practised infibulation. Performed by her aunt in a small village, the procedure was carried out without anaesthetic, using basic cutting tools and thorns. "You know in Somalia, circumcision is such a deep deep part of a girl's life. From the moment we are crawling we know about circumcision, we know that our gran(hnother and mother and sisters are circumcised and we look forward to it being done. Back then, no one would even dream of not being circumcised.' Hawa Adan Mohamed's struggle with mutilation was a long and brutal one suffering many of the complications of the practice and losing an older sister who died after the operation. "I have seen girls die after being circumcised, and the harmful effects go on and on, so I do feel much anger about it all, but I have no one to be angry at. 'You see, mothers always make sure their daughters are circumcised because they believe that this is the best for them. Despite the pain, I myself agreed with the practice because I thought that was best for me. "For example if a mother doesn't get her daughter circumcised, her daughter will be an outcast, no one will marry her and everyone would think she is a prostitute so it is a very difficult situation we can't be angry at anyone, because the mothers' intentions are good." In her early 20s Hawa Adan Mohained travelled and studied overseas where she discovered there were other women who were not circumcised, and most importantly, other Muslim women who were not. Slowly she realised "how wrong the tradition was" and committed herself to the fight against the practice. In the early 70s she returned to Somalia and with a small group of women began her campaign. She was appointed director of women's education, the women's movement began to bring about change and in 1977 infibulation was declared illegal. Government money was provided to start an anti-mutilation campaign. With the outbreak of civil war in 1991, the campaign was disbanded and millions of Somalis fled the country, including Hawa Adan Mohained who, with her husband, went to Canada. There she worked in a group campaigning against mutilation among Somali refugees. "Circumcision is a very difficult and sensitive issue for refugees. Many doctors and nurses in Western countries don't know how to look after circumcised women and the women feel very shy and embarrassed seeking help. "Almost every refugee has faced so much pain and trauma and lost so much anyway that working against circumcision can seem very insensitive in light of all their other terrible experiences so it must be approached with a lot of understanding." In 1995 Hawa Adan Moharned returned home, despite civil turmoil, to help her countrywomen. There she found a resurgence of the practice. "I was devastated by what I saw. It seems that we have gone back 40 years. Girls were being infibulated every day with razors and thorns. Two young girls recently died following the procedure and yet still many don't question it." Despite the horrors, she bears no anger toward the women who perpetuate the practice. "We cannot blame them because it is all they have ever known. Most of the women have never had any education on how harmful circumcision is. They believe that it is part of their religion and that the terrible pain is part of a woman's life. Many of the women have very little power and very little education. In this area, all the women need is education on circumcision.' So, despite civil war and lack of resources, that is what Hawa Adan Mohamed and 18 other Somali women in the town of Kismayo are now delivering. On a shoe-string budget from overseas supporters, they have set up a women's centre providing education programmes, small-business , a bakery and schooling for orphans. 'Our message to them is that circumcision is very very harmful, that it is bad for our daughters, that it is not part of our religion and we must give it up.' Pictures of families that have given up mutilation now line Hawa Adan Mohamed's makeshift office. The 60year-old has many hopes for the future, including that Somalia will be a land of peace and that the women's programme will grow and receive more money. But her dream is simple: "My dream is that in my lifetime there will be young girls living in the heart of Somalia who can run free and play without pain, without the cruel and devastating effects of circumcision. Even just a few. Even 10." NZ Herald 25 Nov 98
Zenebu Tulu (Women in the Material World, Faith d'Aluisio and Peter Menzel, Sierra Club Books, SF 70) "The others would laugh at Like when she goes to school if she were not circumcised. It isa humiliation, not circumcising a daughter. It is terrible not to." At the age of 18 Zebebu Tulu was kidnapped by her future husband, Getachew (Getu) Moneta, and taken to his brother's home. Tradition forbade the tearful Zenebu from returning to her parents and the pair was married after negotiations between the two families. Such forced unions are not uncommon in Ethiopia, where men often have near-total control over women's lives. For Zenebu, now 29, the abduction is a distant memory. For Getu, 32, it is a source of embarrassment-a reminder that he was "ignorant" as a young man. The couple and their five children live in a fanu'ly compound in the village of Moulo-a two-hour drive from Ethiopia's capital city of Addis Ababa-with Getu's parents, siblings, and grandmother. Their home is made of sticks cemented with mud and cattle dung; it leaks during the rainy season and needs constant work. Zenebu struggles to keep the yard clean and says her dream is to have "a very good yard and a garden." On Sundays, she attends services at an Ethiopian Orthodox church - a brief respite in a week of constant toll. Zenebu's biggest help is her daughter Like (pronounced " lee-kay"), 10, who spends the day pounding grain and pressing fresh dung into the wans of their home (inset). Like dreams of going to school like her brother, Teshome, 12, an avid student who wants to become a teacher, but Zenebu says she needs the girl at home and that in any case the family can't pay her school fees. Asked if she thinks life will be better for her children, Zenebu, proud of her son's progress, says that she hopes it will, but is inclined to believe that not much will change.

French FGM Case Ends in Trial and Sentence feb 99 PARIS - 'My mother had told me she was taking us there to have injections. But then I heard my sister Sira scream," the softly spoken young woman told the court 'Now it was my turn. There were several women. They forced me to lie down. One held my legs, the other held my arms. The third bent down and then cut out my clitoris. I screamed, and asked my mother why she hadn't said to stop them. She cried when she saw me." Sitting in the dock just five metres away from Mailatou Koita were the parents who last saw her on her 18th birthday and are accused of being accomplices in the act that ruined her life. The main accused is Hawa Greou, 52, a . Frenchwoman of Malian origin known in her community as Mama Greou. Accused of having cvarried out scores of female excisions over the past five years, she faces charges of inflicting voluntary irjury causing mutilation or permanent disability, which cames a jail term of up to 15 years. The other defendants are five fathers and. 22 mothers. It is due to the 'courage of Mariatou that the authorities have been prompted 'into launching the crackdown. Koita underwent excision at the hands of Mama Greou at the age of eight. Over the years, she bore her suffering in silence until the circumcision of her younger sister Mariam prompted her to go to the police. By becoming an infomer, she gave investigators a vital lead on the shadowy practice but also became an outcast in her community and brought shame upon her family. After Koita flied her complaint police identified 48 girls between one month and 18 years old who had been taken to Greous Paris flat for excision, a figure disputed by the Abolition of Genital Mutilation group, which says the figure is is closer to l00. Investigators found creams compresses, unsterilized razors allegedly used in the operations, as well as an instrument made of two metal spikes fixed to a plastic tube. Greou often carried out the excisions, for 500 francs ($165) apiece, during the holidays - when Paris is virtually deserted, so, that few people would hear the girls' screams. 'I do it the way my mother -and my grandmother did it,' Greou reportedly told police. 'I cut out the clitoris, I take clean earth and mould it into a charm that I place on the chfld's sex." At the start of the trial she sobbed as she told the Court 'I am sorry if I have done wrong It is just a custom, I did not, do it to hurt anyone ... now I understand and we have to stop. A court has handed down tough sentences in a land-mark trial of a Malian charged with mutilating young girls in the rite of female excision. Hawa Greou, 53, was handed an eight-year term for practising excision on 48 girls, while the mother of a young woman who had been mutilated by Greou was given a two-year term for failing to come to her daughters aid. Twenty-six other defendants, from Mali, Senegal, Gambia and Mauritius were given suspended terms ranging from two years to five years for abetting the mutilation.
Togo bans female genital mutilation Nov 98 LOME, Togo (Reuters) - Parliament in the west African nation of Togo has passed a law banning female genital mutilation and setting prison terms or fines for those who carry out or encourage it. The parliamentary human rights commission said studies concluded the practice, known as female circumcision, was not supported on religious or cultural grounds and was an attack on its victims' physical integrity. It said the mutilation, which typically involves removal of all or part of the clitoris, was particularly widely practiced among the country's Muslims, affecting two women out of three. New Zealand passed a private members bill to ban female circumcision at the behest of Christine Fletcher. Jan 99 Senegal joins Burkino Faso, Central African Republic, Dijbouti, Ghana, Guinea Conkery, and Togo in outlawing circumcision.
Wednesday, 13 December, 2000, 15:51 GMT Kenyan girls win circumcision ban Case could heighten war against female circumcision For the first time in Kenya, two teenage schoolgirls have won a court order preventing their father from forcing them to undergo female genital mutilation, traditionally known as circumcision. A court in Rift Valley Province issued a permament injunction on their father, Pius Kandie, stopping him from allowing his daughters - 17-year-old Ednah and 15-year-old Beatrice - to undergo the process without their consent. The magistrate Daniel Ochenja ordered the father to continue providing financial support for the girls, who are still living in the family home. The order has been welcomed by human rights activists as an important step towards ending the practice, which remains widespread in much of rural Kenya. Historic case The Centre for Human Rights and Democracy in Kenya helped the girls bring the case. The girls' lawyer, Ken Wafula, has termed the case historic saying it would encourage other girls in the province, who are forced into circumcision, to make a stand against the practice. He told the BBC that the two sisters considered the practice outdated and repugnant to justice and morality in the 21st century. The human rights group says girls from the Kalenjin tribe are normally subject to circumcision and immediately forced into sexual activities or marriage. This, says Mr Wafula, disrupts their academic growth, exposes them to unwanted pregnancies and the deadly disease, Aids. Monday, September 6, 1999 Published at 14:09 GMT 15:09 UK Kenya: Changing attitudes to female circumcision
By BBC correspondent Cathy Jenkins in Nairobi Agnes Poroi is the sort of teacher who oozes warmth and practical common sense. She needs to, because her subject is the most sensitive and the most controversial she could ever have to deal with in this part of East Africa. She is explaining to a class of 37 girls the dangers of female circumcision, commonly known in health circles as female genital mutilation. "What does the clitoris do?" she asks the girls, and a dozen hands shoot up. "Yes," says Agnes "it sends messages to the brain. Look at me, I've been circumcised, I don't have a key to start my engine". Agnes goes on to list some of the side effects: trauma, bleeding, difficult childbirth. Then she tells the girls, in no-nonsense terms, what she remembers of her circumcision day. "Painful, yes, it was painful what happened to me that early morning. The old mama came, she was very fat. In the first place I was taken outside. No one talked to me. Everyone was rough to me because there was something that was going to happen to me, and they wanted me to be brave." The old mama whom Agnes was refering to was the old woman who carried out the circumcision. It is a tradition which is still widely practised by many of Kenya's tribes. The most basic type of circumcision is the "sunna", where the covering of the clitoris is removed. Among Agnes's tribe, the Masai, circumcision is more severe. It involves the cutting away of the whole clitoris, together with the labia majora and the labia minora. Traditionally, a Masai girl is circumcised before she is married, and that can be from a very young age. During the ceremony, the girl is expected to remain silent. To cry would be a sign of weakness. Agnes works for an organisation called Maendeleo ya Wanawake, which means the Development of Women - it is trying to stop the practice in Kenya. But so sensitive is the issue that campaigners cannot approach it head on. Instead they are using education and economic factors as a lever. Among the Masai community, parents are increasingly eager for their daughters to finish school because this increases their chances of earning money for the whole family. But the problem is that once a girl is circumcised, she drops out of school to get married. Her earning power drops to nil.
"I had to go around the area for one year without even mentioning female circumcision" says Agnes. "I just had to go round saying to parents 'I'm here and I want to know why your girls are dropping out of school; what will you think if they're not the teachers of tomorrow, not the doctors of tomorrow?' Slowly it came from the parents themselves. 'What about this circumcision. It makes them drop out of school.' " The parents of the girls in Agnes's class have been convinced. Instead of having their daughters circumcised, they have sent them to Maendeleo ya Wanawake. Over the course of a week with the organisation, the girls are taught what their community expects of them as adults. Then at the end there is a ceremony of singing and dancing. It is a rite of passage for the girls and marks their passage from childhood to adulthood. But they have become women without being cut. Dorcas Samante is very happy about it. She is twenty, and first heard about the dangers of circumcision when she was at school. But she only avoided circumcision because her uncle, who brought her up, is an urban, educated man who was already convinced. Dorcas needed his support because among Masai it is the men who make all the decisions. But Dorcas knows that many of her former schoolfriends do not understand her. "They see me as odd" she says. "They keep away from me. But I'm proud. Perhaps I'm an unusal woman here, but there is an outside world and I know that it will agree with me." Watching the ceremony is Mary Karanja, the mother of another of the girls, Esther. Mary is beaming with delight. She says that she was circumcised in 1956, but none of her six daughters has been cut. "I realised when my first child was born that I had difficulty. I am very happy about this ceremony" she says. But these are small numbers yet, and the campaigners know that some of the girls at their ceremony may yet come under pressure to be circumcised. But they are also prepared to work very carefully and patiently. They say that this is the only way to change attitudes.
· The Female Genital Mutilation Resource Page · To Mutilate in the Name of Jehovah or Allah · Amnesty International's 'Human Rights Information Pack' on FGM
Reunion with Eden - Sakina Epiphany 2000 Jerusalem - please come!! Daughters of Israel, Daughters of Palestine, Daughters of Eden, Daughters of Gaea - please help Spread the word - this is the final justice, peace and the reconciliation. · Fertilize the Renewal · The Bridegroom and the Sacred Marriage · Hymn to the Epoch · Ways of the Sacred Marriage
References 1. Keeton, William (1976) Biological Science 3rd ed., WW Norton & Co., New York 737.

eternal_spirit
12-08-2009, 06:56 PM
CHRISTIANS FORCED TO CONVERT TO ISLAM AND TO GET CIRCUMCISED

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=73174

eternal_spirit
12-08-2009, 07:57 PM
Please stop this madness.

mr t
12-08-2009, 08:23 PM
This is the fourth time you've posted this ES. What happened? Not enough bad feeling created the last 3 times?

why dont you do something about his incessant vile posts? :confused:

The only purpose they serve is to spread disinformation, create fear and hate, and divide people further.

We could all have some good friends amongst the muslims, they are very clued up on tptb, it was them that planted the seed in my mind, and no they were not so called "extremists".

mr t
12-08-2009, 08:25 PM
Please stop this madness.

lol, :p funny coming from you.

krakhead
12-08-2009, 08:35 PM
why dont you do something about his incessant vile posts? :confused:

The only purpose they serve is to spread disinformation, create fear and hate, and divide people further.

We could all have some good friends amongst the muslims, they are very clued up on tptb, it was them that planted the seed in my mind, and no they were not so called "extremists".

Find counter arguments to ES's claims then. Post them. Get him to defend the points he raises.

Don't just moan to the moderators - 'I don't like this, remove this now' - look into what he says, research it, see if he's right, if he is - learn to live with it. If he isn't then post your research/counter argument.

Another thing to point out would be that all A do not = B and to tar all followers of Islam with the same brush is myopic and ultimately redundant.

mr t
12-08-2009, 08:35 PM
http://www.channel4.com/health/microsites/0-9/4health/body/sur_designer.html

ES, why dont you scream and shout about this?

is our society progressive? Atleast the muslims allowed this 1500 years ago, allowed women to vote and own property, own their own business and didint burden them with so called "equality" by making them work too hard and bring up children.

by the way in islam anything a women earns is her's to keep!

Propoganda posts such as yours only serve to keep muslims away from these forums, I sincerely believe we could have good allies in the muslims, they know alot more than you think, and are alot more vociferous, but i suppose unity is not something you desire.

mr t
12-08-2009, 08:38 PM
Find counter arguments to ES's claims then. Post them. Get him to defend the points he raises.

Don't just moan to the moderators - 'I don't like this, remove this now' - look into what he says, research it, see if he's right, if he is - learn to live with it. If he isn't then post your research/counter argument.

Another thing to point out would be that all A do not = B and to tar all followers of Islam with the same brush is myopic and ultimately redundant.

i have and so have others, but i suppose this forum is for shills, as they are allowed to spread thier hate on every thread, repeating the same rubbish over and over again.

islamvslizards
12-08-2009, 09:32 PM
Find counter arguments to ES's claims then. Post them. Get him to defend the points he raises.

its quite simple actually

for something to be "part" of (shia) islam, it must fulfill one of the four following criteria:

- the prophet did it
- its in the quran
- the 12 imams did it
- the 12 imams encouraged it

this act of blood rituals - called qamma zani - fulfills not one of those criteria, so is not considered islamic. its that simple.

it is a cultural arab/iranian expression of mourning, which itself is only a few hundred years old. it takes place in the indian subcontinent too.

let me give you an example

prayers 5 times a day - fulfills all 4 criteria

fasting - fulfills all 4

giving to charity - fulfills all 4

looking after orphans - fulfills all 4

qamma zani - not even one.

in fact, the majority of shia scholars, with the exception of a minority, ban it outright.

rapunzel
14-08-2009, 10:33 AM
its quite simple actually

for something to be "part" of (shia) islam, it must fulfill one of the four following criteria:

- the prophet did it
- its in the quran
- the 12 imams did it
- the 12 imams encouraged it

this act of blood rituals - called qamma zani - fulfills not one of those criteria, so is not considered islamic. its that simple.

it is a cultural arab/iranian expression of mourning, which itself is only a few hundred years old. it takes place in the indian subcontinent too.

let me give you an example

prayers 5 times a day - fulfills all 4 criteria

fasting - fulfills all 4

giving to charity - fulfills all 4

looking after orphans - fulfills all 4

qamma zani - not even one.

in fact, the majority of shia scholars, with the exception of a minority, ban it outright.

These scholars think it OK

http://www.shirazi.org.uk/tatbir%20fatawa1423.htm

I recognise that Islam is a huge religion with numerous strands of belief and that not all scholars will agree with those on the site I linked to. I recognise also that the western media will sometimes latch on to some Islamic practice which may not be mainstream and present it as a horrifying aspect of modern Islam.

However whilst adults can carry out whatever ritual they like in private, providing it harms no-one (a Wiccan would include not harming oneself in this) it is quite abhorrent to see children being involved in this. Not so very long ago, in the UK, a man was prosecuted for encouraging two young teenage boys to whip themselves with a whip made of knives and chains during the same type of ceremony as the subject of the OP. It had been pointed out to the man concerned that no boys under the age of 16 should be involved but he had ignored that warning from his fellow Shia Muslims.

This is the whole problem. There are many, many decent Muslims out there who would find these proceedings quite as horrific as we do but they are not coming forward to protest as they should. Many years ago, when I had Sky tv I used to watch the Islam channel but gave up because I was sickened by some of what I heard there. There was a programme where people could ring in with a question and a scholar would answer. There was one question about female circumcision and the scholar explained that there was no Islamic law requiring it and that it was a cultural practice. What distressed me was that the scholar did not condemn this barbaric practice, which, becuase of cultural reasons, is almost exclusively carried out by Muslims. By accepting it he was condoning it and this made me feel sick. Why aren't Islamic scholars and Imams coming out against this practice and banning it?

So let's have some more Muslims willing to speak out and push the extremists into the background. That's the only way but I doubt I'll see it in my lifetime.

disorder2k8
14-08-2009, 10:39 AM
is it just me or is in eternal_spirit really anti-muslim? most of the posts he/she has made have been about the 'things that these people do, the shock horror'

eternal_spirit
14-08-2009, 10:44 AM
Read the message not the messenger.

grachtengordel
14-08-2009, 10:53 AM
Read the message not the messenger.

If the messenger has no credibility, the 'message' they promote is likely also bunk

eternal_spirit
14-08-2009, 10:59 AM
If the messenger has no credibility, the 'message' they promote is likely also bunk

Reality is "real" not "bunk" which makes the messenger credible, as the information posted is based on reality - head cutting rituals and circumcision "blood rituals." thus grants legitimate debate and exposure.

Have you anything to add to the debate? So far you have a personal vendetta against the messenger if that's your only input then it's not welcome or relevant.

grachtengordel
14-08-2009, 11:34 AM
Reality is "real" not "bunk" which makes the messenger credible,

Only IF there is 'reality' in their 'message' and your threads/post contain neither.

Have you anything to add to the debate? So far you have a personal vendetta against the messenger if that's your only input then it's not welcome or relevant.

Whats 'welcome' or considered 'relevant' by you is not of interest to me. If you wish to dictate what 'input' is in threads you had better get your own forum which you can spam with impunity
I have no 'vendetta' against you , If I had, it would not be confined to an internet forum. I honestly want to know why you are obsessed with postring 'anti-islam' threads


- head cutting rituals and circumcision "blood rituals." thus grants legitimate debate and exposure.

So why do you just object to Islam? Most muslims do NOT practice 'blood rituals' , however if a male child is to be considered 'Jewish' , he must have his genitals ritually mutilated, often the 'rabbi' sucks the blood from the infants maimed penis, why not make threads about this ?

islamvslizards
14-08-2009, 04:10 PM
These scholars think it OK

http://www.shirazi.org.uk/tatbir%20fatawa1423.htm


the shirazis (may god protect them) are one of the minority, you will be able to find fatwas both for and against, but when it comes to numbers, the anti far, far outweigh the pro.

personally, im strictly neutral. its none of my business. theyre doing it to themselves not forcing it on others so ill put it down to personal choice. might be distasteful to those who dont do it, but then again plenty of things those who dont do qamma zani can be viewed as distasteful to those who do.

azadari - mourning - takes different forms. at its simplest, its simply crying, reciting eulogys/ dirges, giving to the poor, donating blood, prayers etc. some choose to express it by qamma zani.

eternal_spirit i am still waiting for you to provide either a single sentence from the quran, or a single hadith from any hadith book, shia or sunni, strong or weak, even by the dodgiest of dodgy narrators, which state along the lines of "cut your heads open with knives in grief and do it to your children".


if you cannot, then this whole thread is meaningless and again you are exposed as a hate mongering liar.

daseem
14-08-2009, 06:31 PM
is it just me or is in eternal_spirit really anti-muslim? most of the posts he/she has made have been about the 'things that these people do, the shock horror'

Naa what ever gave you that idea :D

daseem
14-08-2009, 06:38 PM
Read the message not the messenger.

Why bother reading crap :P. As a matter of fact character of a messenger matters otherwise even the genuine points that are made will most probably be dismissed/discredited because the messenger is unreliable with a bigoted, racist agenda. Think about that. I bet C & V have totally worn out on your keyboard :D

eternal_spirit
14-08-2009, 07:33 PM
Why bother reading crap :P. As a matter of fact character of a messenger matters otherwise even the genuine points that are made will most probably be dismissed/discredited because the messenger is unreliable with a bigoted, racist agenda. Think about that. I bet C & V have totally worn out on your keyboard :D

More lies, false accusations and false labels No racism from me. It's you who has no credibility, you attack the messenger with personal abuse you have not debated the threads topic, therefore you are a troll and breaking forum rules.

godgoo
14-08-2009, 07:54 PM
Wtf?

eternal_spirit
14-08-2009, 08:11 PM
eternal_spirit i am still waiting for you to provide either a single sentence from the quran, or a single hadith from any hadith book, shia or sunni, strong or weak, even by the dodgiest of dodgy narrators, which state along the lines of "cut your heads open with knives in grief and do it to your children".


if you cannot, then this whole thread is meaningless and again you are exposed as a hate mongering liar.

Hadiths and instructions from Mohammed to circumcise girls. Commentary from both Sunni and Shia (shiite) I have provided evidence which shows "blood rituals" are part of Islam and millions of Muslims partake in such rituals.

The prophet Muhammad himself is quoted as saying " It is an ordinance in men and honourable in women"
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1188813&postcount=3


I've provided enough proof that this is done by Muslims you're the only one denying reality. I hate the fact this behaviour (blood rituals) is tolerated and practiced at all on children.

Some Shiites believe cutting children honors a 7th-century Muslim leader
• Kids as young as a monthold and men as old as 100 are slashed
• Ashura marks the decapitation of their most revered Saint Imam Hussein

recalling how the 7th-century Shiite Muslim saint, Imam Hussein, was decapitated, his head placed on a lance.

The bloodletting is a reminder of Hussein's suffering, as well as punishment for the failure of Muslims to help Hussein in his battle against Islamic ruler Yazid, leader of what became the majority Sunni branch of Islam.
Hussein was the son of Ali, the Prophet Muhammad's cousin, who Shiites believe should have been his rightful successor. The loss at Karbala effectively consigned Shiites to minority status in the Islamic world -- and it became a symbol of the sense of oppression that runs through the sect's beliefs.

eternal_spirit
14-08-2009, 08:46 PM
Waris Dirie: Another Missing Women's Rights Activist Against Islam Disappears (http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2008/03/waris-dirie-ano.html)


UPDATE: SHE'S ALIVE. (http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/03/07/belgium.model.ap/index.html) And being questioned as to what happened. A happy ending! When I know more, so will you.
Did Waris Dirie, (http://www.waris-dirie-foundation.com/) former model and women's rights campaigner, suffer the same fate as Katoucha Niane, one of the first African women to attain international stardom as a model and a vocal opponent of female genital mutilation, whose body was found in the Seine River last week? (here) (http://www.cnn.com/2008/WORLD/europe/02/29/katoucha.dead.ap/index.html)Waris Dirie, former model and women's rights campaigner, reported missing (http://www.startribune.com/world/16380781.html) Star Tribune hat tip Ann (http://refugeeresettlementwatch.wordpress.com/)
BRUSSELS, Belgium - Waris Dirie, a former model who has campaigned against female genital mutilation and written an international best-seller about her experiences, is missing, police and her manager said Friday.http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/images/2008/03/07/waris_dirie.jpg (http://www.waris-dirie-foundation.com/)
Dirie, 43, has not been seen since early Wednesday when police saw her getting into a taxi in Brussels, manager Walter Lutschinger said in a telephone interview.
"We are really very scared," said Lutschinger, who has been her manager for seven years.
Dirie — who was born in Somalia and now lives in Vienna, Austria — gained international fame as a model posing in Chanel ads and acting in a James Bond film before launching her campaign against female genital mutilation in 1996.
She recounted her own experiences of suffering genital mutilation as a child in the book "Desert Flower," which became an international best-seller.
Dirie was due to speak to two conferences on women's rights organized by the European Union in Brussels this week, including one Thursday attended by Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice.

islamvslizards
14-08-2009, 09:02 PM
Hadiths and instructions from Mohammed to circumcise girls. Commentary from both Sunni and Shia (shiite) I have provided evidence which shows "blood rituals" are part of Islam and millions of Muslims partake in such rituals.

The prophet Muhammad himself is quoted as saying " It is an ordinance in men and honourable in women"
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1188813&postcount=3

that questionable (at best) hadith is not referring to blood rituals in azadari.

so yet again you are proven as a liar.


I've provided enough proof that this is done by Muslims you're the only one denying reality.

when did i deny it was done by muslims? i said prove that the prophet/quran/imams encouraged it or did it.

yet again, you are proven as a liar.


I hate the fact this behaviour (blood rituals) is tolerated and practiced at all on children.

the vast majority of scholars have banned it outright with a tiny minority allowing it. so yet again you are proven as a liar.


Some Shiites believe cutting children honors a 7th-century Muslim leader
• Kids as young as a monthold and men as old as 100 are slashed
• Ashura marks the decapitation of their most revered Saint Imam Hussein

[B]recalling how the 7th-century Shiite Muslim saint, Imam Hussein, was decapitated, his head placed on a lance.

i am aware of why they are doing it.

i am asking you to prove how blood rituals, that some choose to do as a part of it, has any foundation in islam.

which it doesnt. since it isnt mentioned in the quran, or done by the prophet or imams or even mentioned by any of them.

so yet again, you are proven as a liar.

islamvslizards
14-08-2009, 09:02 PM
Waris Dirie: Another Missing Women's Rights Activist Against Islam Disappears (http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/2008/03/waris-dirie-ano.html)


what a suprise....you changed the topic when you have run out of things to cut and paste :rolleyes:

metacomet
14-08-2009, 09:21 PM
its quite simple actually

for something to be "part" of (shia) islam, it must fulfill one of the four following criteria:

- the prophet did it
- its in the quran
- the 12 imams did it
- the 12 imams encouraged it

this act of blood rituals - called qamma zani - fulfills not one of those criteria, so is not considered islamic. its that simple.

it is a cultural arab/iranian expression of mourning, which itself is only a few hundred years old. it takes place in the indian subcontinent too.

let me give you an example

prayers 5 times a day - fulfills all 4 criteria

fasting - fulfills all 4

giving to charity - fulfills all 4

looking after orphans - fulfills all 4

qamma zani - not even one.

in fact, the majority of shia scholars, with the exception of a minority, ban it outright.

:cool:

I really enjoy seeing you shine a light on this stuff.

I think it's obvious that the OP is just another 'muslims are animals' post. *shrug*

Nothing we haven't seen already.

islamvslizards
14-08-2009, 09:24 PM
:cool:

I really enjoy seeing you shine a light on this stuff.

I think it's obvious that the OP is just another 'muslims are animals' post. *shrug*

Nothing we haven't seen already.

thanks for the kind words :) ive got his number. until he stops with the bollocks posts and threads im going to hound him and counter every thing he says.

i have zero problem with reasonable critisisms, reasonable being non-over sensationalised, cut and pasted tripe from anti-islamic websites. i was hoping for the lovely members i used to stalk silently for months before i started posting....oops i mean regular posters to talk with me about religion and stuff but it seems people like eternal_spirit and a few others just scared everyone off. its frustrating tp say the least.

daseem
14-08-2009, 09:57 PM
More lies, false accusations and false labels No racism from me. It's you who has no credibility, you attack the messenger with personal abuse you have not debated the threads topic, therefore you are a troll and breaking forum rules.

Awww.. I replied but you never answered..blegh..Credibility!!! lol

eternal_spirit
15-08-2009, 12:01 AM
what a suprise....you changed the topic when you have run out of things to cut and paste :rolleyes:

:confused: It's very much on topic. It doesn't matter what you post to shill and steer away from the threads "topics" yes "plural"

I've provided enough proof that this is done by Muslims you're the only one denying reality. I hate the fact this behaviour (blood rituals note -"plural" "includes circumcision") is tolerated and practiced at all on children boys and girls. And here we have a religion and Prophet condoning it.

The practice of circumcision in Islam comes from the Hadith, Shariah law and the consensus of Islamic communities.

The prophet Muhammad himself is quoted as saying " It is an ordinance in men and honourable in women"
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showp...13&postcount=3 (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1188813&postcount=3)




Don't you think this behaviour is wrong? You don't have to do much research into Female circumcision to realise how horrific it is.

eternal_spirit
15-08-2009, 12:08 AM
i am asking you to prove how blood rituals, that some choose to do as a part of it, has any foundation in islam.

which it doesnt. since it isnt mentioned in the quran, or done by the prophet or imams or even mentioned by any of them.

so yet again, you are proven as a liar.
No "you are wrong". I have "proven" this "many times" before, as I have again on "this" thread. And you come out with the same lines (lies)

The thread speaks for itself REALITY with PROOF.

zarah
15-08-2009, 12:15 AM
I have little knowledge on blood ritual, so I won't comment.

Just wanna say...IVL I agree with the guy that said it's great to see you respond with obvious knowledge and not copious, pointless copy pasting. You seem like a totally intelligent person.

daseem
15-08-2009, 02:27 AM
What would people say to the Christian tradition of "mortification of flesh" practiced from the 11th century by the flagellant Christian cults where nuns, priests, saints etc. starve themselves, flagellate self with multi-headed whips and scar themselves? What about Roman Catholic church Opus Dei cult of today who still practice this?

Self mortification in its simplest form could mean fasting or denying self the pleasures of the world but in more extreme scenarios it involves inflicting pain on self through cutting flesh, self-flagellation , piercing and beating.

"The Rev. Michael Geisler, a priest of the Opus Dei Prelature in St. Louis, wrote two articles attempting to explain the theological purpose behind corporal mortification. "Self-denial helps a person overcome both psychological and physical weakness, gives him energy, helps him grow in virtue and ultimately leads to salvation. It conquers the insidious demons of softness, pessimism and lukewarm faith that dominate the lives of so many today" (Crisis magazine July/August 2005).

Members of the modern Church of Body Modification (CBM) believe that by enduring pain they make a connection to their spirit. "

St. Paul wrote: "I chastise my body and bring it into subjection: lest perhaps when I have preached to others I myself should be castaway" (I Cor. 9:27); "In my flesh I complete what is lacking in Christ's afflictions, for the sake of his body, that is the Church." (Col 1:24) Jesus Christ is quoted: "If anyone wishes to come after me, let him deny himself, take up his cross and follow me."

"Through the centuries, some Christians have practiced these voluntary penances as a way of imitating Jesus who, according to the Christian bible, voluntarily accepted the sufferings of his passion and death on the cross at Calvary in order to redeem mankind. Some Christians note that the cross carried by Jesus is the crossbar or patibulum, a rough tree trunk, which probably weighed between 80 to 110 pounds."

"St. Dominic Loricatus is said to have performed 'One Hundred Years Penance' by chanting 20 psalters accompanied by 300,000 lashes over six days." And there are many more examples if you want me to find them.

"Various forms of self-denial or voluntary suffering (commonly referred to as Ascetism) are practised in various ways by members of many religions, including Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, Islam (only in Sufism and Shi'a Islam, see Remembrance of Muharram). Various indigenous peoples and primitivists also incorporate voluntary pain, suffering, and self-denial as part of their spiritual traditions as vehicles to the divine and/or rites of passage or healing.

It has been speculated that extreme practices of mortification of the flesh may be used to obtain altered states of consciousness to achieve spiritual experiences or visions. In modern times, members of the Church of Body Modification believe that by manipulating and modifying their bodies (by painful processes) they can strengthen the bond between their bodies and spirits, and become more spiritually aware. This somewhat secular group uses rites of passage from many traditions to seek their aims, including Hindu, Buddhist, shamanic, and Christian methods of seeking altered states of consciousness."

So as you can see self-mutilation , self mortification where pain is inflicted is practiced in minor sects belonging to all major religions including Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism etc.. etc.. Islam is not alone in this. Even in Islam, its a small sect that does this since it is rejected by mainstream Islam as has been highlighted to you.

if you want to read more try :

Mortification of the flesh - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

islamvslizards
15-08-2009, 08:26 PM
:confused: It's very much on topic. It doesn't matter what you post to shill and steer away from the threads "topics" yes "plural"

was she arrested for going against qamma zani? or connected to azadari in any way? so again you are proven as a liar.



I've provided enough proof that this is done by Muslims

when have i denied that it is done by muslims. so again you are proven as a liar.


you're the only one denying reality. I hate the fact this behaviour (blood rituals note -"plural" "includes circumcision") is tolerated and practiced at all on children boys and girls.

yet it is not based on anything from the sharia of the prophet, and the majority of shia scholars (at least 95%) ban it outright?

again, you are proven as a liar.


And here we have a religion and Prophet condoning it.

The practice of circumcision in Islam comes from the Hadith, Shariah law and the consensus of Islamic communities.

circumcision has NOTHING to do with qamma zani.

NOTHING.

so again you are proven as a liar.


The prophet Muhammad himself is quoted as saying " It is an ordinance in men and honourable in women"
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showp...13&postcount=3 (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1188813&postcount=3)

sunan abu dawud is not a reliable source of hadith.




Don't you think this behaviour is wrong? You don't have to do much research into Female circumcision to realise how horrific it is.[/quote]

the title of this thread is "child/ baby head cutting ritual", which is done as a form of mourning in some places in the world.

this is not circumcision. which has nothing to do with azadari, with ashura, with mourning, with imam hussain, with yearly gatherings, with child blood rituals.

so again, you are proven as a liar.

islamvslizards
15-08-2009, 08:31 PM
No "you are wrong". I have "proven" this "many times" before, as I have again on "this" thread. And you come out with the same lines (lies)

The thread speaks for itself REALITY with PROOF.

circumcision has nothing to do with this thread. not only that - but that hadith is not to be relied on, on account of its weakness of chain of narrators, sanad and matn, book it appears in and scholars who claim it is reliable. on pretty much every basis that a hadith CAN be rejected, it IS rejected. for example of a hadith with a similar status, see the "fly in the drink" hadith.

i have asked repeatedly to see proof that azadari - which is yearly mourning on ashura - is linked via the sharia to the blood rituals that people in some parts of the world do.

eternal_spirit
16-08-2009, 11:36 AM
The original tags I added to the threads title where (religious blood rituals) So Yes I am on topic and not a liar.

I think maybe forum staff added extra tags to the title (Zionism and Christianity) were not part of the original tags.

eternal_spirit
16-08-2009, 11:48 AM
"Various forms of self-denial or voluntary suffering (commonly referred to as Ascetism) are practised in various ways by members of many religions, including Buddhism, Christianity, Hinduism, Islam (only in Sufism and Shi'a Islam, see Remembrance of Muharram). Various indigenous peoples and primitivists also incorporate voluntary pain, suffering, and self-denial as part of their spiritual traditions as vehicles to the divine and/or rites of passage or healing.

It has been speculated that extreme practices of mortification of the flesh may be used to obtain altered states of consciousness to achieve spiritual experiences or visions. In modern times, members of the Church of Body Modification believe that by manipulating and modifying their bodies (by painful processes) they can strengthen the bond between their bodies and spirits, and become more spiritually aware. This somewhat secular group uses rites of passage from many traditions to seek their aims, including Hindu, Buddhist, shamanic, and Christian methods of seeking altered states of consciousness."

So as you can see self-mutilation , self mortification where pain is inflicted is practiced in minor sects belonging to all major religions including Islam, Christianity, Judaism, Buddhism, Hinduism etc.. etc.. Islam is not alone in this. Even in Islam, its a small sect that does this since it is rejected by mainstream Islam as has been highlighted to you.

if you want to read more try :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mortification_of_the_flesh

I'm well aware of all this and have posted on ALL these topics.

Difference is people doing these rituals are "adults" who choose to do these things. Shia Islam with it's head cutting rituals on "MONTH OLD BABYS" in honour of their "MUSLIM SAINT/MARTYR HUSSEIN"

And circumcision (GENITAL MUTILATION) on boys and girls which is common and practised by millions of Muslims.

is WRONG on so many levels and carried out against their wishes and forced upon them.
BIG difference!

grachtengordel
16-08-2009, 11:59 AM
I've provided enough proof that this is done by Muslims

No you have posted OPINION, not 'proof'. An in depth documentary would help verify your claims

to 'Infernal Spirit', Are you yourself circumsised?

hobo
16-08-2009, 02:12 PM
http://www.channel4.com/health/microsites/0-9/4health/body/sur_designer.html

ES, why dont you scream and shout about this?

is our society progressive? Atleast the muslims allowed this 1500 years ago, allowed women to vote and own property, own their own business and didint burden them with so called "equality" by making them work too hard and bring up children.

by the way in islam anything a women earns is her's to keep!

Propoganda posts such as yours only serve to keep muslims away from these forums, I sincerely believe we could have good allies in the muslims, they know alot more than you think, and are alot more vociferous, but i suppose unity is not something you desire.
You believe ah? Why haven´t you tried to make friends with them then?

skyver
16-08-2009, 02:45 PM
Let eternal spirit post what he has to say. Isn't this forum about debating deep & serious matters as well as other stuff?

I personally think that most religions have stupid ritualistic traditions attached to them that people blindly follow. Every religion that I have looked at, I have found too much darkness for me to follow. Granted, most of the darkness is carried out by humanity hiding behind certain texts, but if it is so easy to do then, I will not follow.

Anyway, back to the point. If we feel that what eternal spirit is posting is wrong, then we should explain his inaccuracies instead of trying to stop it being posted.

eternal_spirit
16-08-2009, 03:11 PM
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19472
more info on Lilith may explain things better.

There is a limit to Lilith's power of destruction: when the child under goes the initiation of *brit milah*, circumcision; which symbolizes in two tradtional phrases, being "sealed into the Covenant" and "coming under the wings [protection] of the Shekinah". By the marking of its member, the child becomes a member of the Community of Israel, both in its literal aspect and in its Kabbalastic aspect ("Community of Israel" being one of the terms denoting the Shekinah). This rite is applicable to infants and to adult converts (to whom the phrase "coming under the Shekinah" is often applied), and it is the essential rite of initiation into the Community.

http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/%7Ehumm/Topics/Lilith/Images/giger03.jpg

islamvslizards
16-08-2009, 06:44 PM
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19472
more info on Lilith may explain things better.

this is your proof? do you know how many ways i can prove that this is a load of crap?

islamvslizards
16-08-2009, 06:45 PM
I personally think that most religions have stupid ritualistic traditions attached to them that people blindly follow.

Anyway, back to the point. If we feel that what eternal spirit is posting is wrong, then we should explain his inaccuracies instead of trying to stop it being posted.

the whole point of this thread is whether or not this head cutting ritual is based on any islamic tenets.

and we have repeatedly shown that it is inaccurate to say that it is. he has yet to prove otherwise.

eternal_spirit
16-08-2009, 09:43 PM
Truth is as previously stated "Muslims" do these rituals in honour of their "MUSLIM SAINT HUSSEIN" as pointed out in the first post!

islamvslizards
16-08-2009, 10:33 PM
Truth is as previously stated "Muslims" do these rituals in honour of their "MUSLIM SAINT HUSSEIN" as pointed out in the first post!

"muslim saint hussain"? so where does "lilith" come into it?

and i have never denied that muslims do it as a form of mourning for hussain. what i am repeatedly and patiently asking you, is to prove that this act has any foundation in any part of muslim sharia.

if it does, then show it. if it doesnt, then this act is a cultural act which people have, over the years, incorporated into their mourning acts, but which has no basis in any tenets of islam.

let me give you an example of something similar. i cant physically attend a prayer, or speech, or for example watch the tawaf in the kaaba in mecca, but now technology is such that there are dedicated websites which show live feeds of the mosque with sound, so i can see it from wherever i am.

listening to speeches is based on islam. watching it online isnt. you cant say watching it on my pc is a "part" of my faith because it isnt. it is a later addition which people use.

unfortunately, that isnt the best example, however azadari is such an odd case from a jurisprudence view, that its hard to find suitable similies to describe it. but i hope you understand my point.

so is it islams fault its done? quite obviously not.

so yes, again, you are exposed as a liar.

zarah
16-08-2009, 10:36 PM
Over the years I've noticed that a lot of cultural traditions become mixed up with Islam to an extent that the two seem as if they're one and the same.

islamvslizards
16-08-2009, 10:38 PM
Over the years I've noticed that a lot of cultural traditions become mixed up with Islam to an extent that the two seem as if they're one and the same.

indeed. weddings are a prime example as well.

separ
16-08-2009, 10:50 PM
I use a straight razor when shaving and sometimes cut myself accidentally if not paying proper attention. So what? It's not a serious wound and it's nobody else's business. In one hour it's not even visible.

The family of the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) suffered such terrible privations and torture. We Muslims will never forget Hussayn (as) the martyr of Karbala no matter what anybody says. If some Muslims practice azadari as a part of their mourning, leave them alone. Everyone needs their CULTURAL SPACE.

islamvslizards
16-08-2009, 10:53 PM
I use a straight razor when shaving and sometimes cut myself accidentally if not paying proper attention. So what? It's not a serious wound and it's nobody else's business. In one hour it's not even visible.

The family of the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) suffered such terrible privations and torture. We Muslims will never forget Hussayn (as) the martyr of Karbala no matter what anybody says. If some Muslims practice azadari as a part of their mourning, leave them alone. Everyone needs their CULTURAL SPACE.

i fully agree. agree or disagree, at least these people are doing it to themselves. it would be a lot worse if they were forcing it on others, but thats not the case. personally, its none of my business. theres plenty of more important things i need to be worrying about.

mightyoak
16-08-2009, 11:05 PM
If some Muslims practice azadari as a part of their mourning, leave them alone. Everyone needs their CULTURAL SPACE.


So therefor the Ahmadiyya Muslim's will be afforded there cultral space too as they await the prophets return eh separ uh ?

islamvslizards
17-08-2009, 04:40 PM
So therefor the Ahmadiyya Muslim's will be afforded there cultral space too as they await the prophets return eh separ uh ?

yes they should be. the way pakistani successive governments treat them is despicable.

and their imam has already been and gone, and so has their jesus, so your point is meaningless actually.

hobo
17-08-2009, 07:01 PM
I use a straight razor when shaving and sometimes cut myself accidentally if not paying proper attention. So what? It's not a serious wound and it's nobody else's business. In one hour it's not even visible.

The family of the Prophet Mohammad (pbuh) suffered such terrible privations and torture. We Muslims will never forget Hussayn (as) the martyr of Karbala no matter what anybody says. If some Muslims practice azadari as a part of their mourning, leave them alone. Everyone needs their CULTURAL SPACE.

In these pictures it seems that it´s mostly the little children who are mourning, the grown ups who are perpetrating this sick tradition on them are smiling ever so smugly. "Cultural space" pffft...

mightyoak
17-08-2009, 07:40 PM
yes they should be. the way pakistani successive governments treat them is despicable.

and their imam has already been and gone, and so has their jesus, so your point is meaningless actually.

As your aware they Ahmadiyya Muslim's are persicuted in pakistan on their beliefs that the prophet will return one day They have not been afforded the cultral space to practice there faith Same with Christains is it not. However those that abuse babies heads are to be afforded there little gratification for blood. Come on now IvL ????????

islamvslizards
18-08-2009, 11:53 AM
As your aware they Ahmadiyya Muslim's are persicuted in pakistan

thank you, captain obvious.

didnt i just say that in my last post?


They have not been afforded the cultral space to practice there faith Same with Christains is it not. However those that abuse babies heads are to be afforded there little gratification for blood. Come on now IvL ????????

is it my fault ahmadis are being persecuted? "come on now IvL"? what do you expect me to do, change the pakistani constitution?

eternal_spirit
18-08-2009, 11:37 PM
i fully agree. agree or disagree, at least these people are doing it to themselves. it would be a lot worse if they were forcing it on others, but thats not the case. personally, its none of my business. theres plenty of more important things i need to be worrying about.

WTF:confused: They are forcing the head cutting of month old babys and small children and you think that's okay:confused:

Consenting adults that's up to them. (although who knows how many are hypnotised/mind controlled which is another issue)

And you never replied when I asked do you agree with genital mutilation of girls? I know you think mutilation of boys is a good thing. Of course I strongly disagree with mutilation of boys and girls.

eternal_spirit
18-08-2009, 11:39 PM
is it my fault ahmadis are being persecuted? "come on now IvL"? what do you expect me to do, change the pakistani constitution?
Why did you ignore his question about the head cutting ritual? Is it because you're a Shiite (Shia) Muslim same as the ones who do the head cutting rituals are.

eternal_spirit
18-08-2009, 11:43 PM
so where does "lilith" come into it?


Circumcision - the threads topics (tags) are about religious blood rituals dumbo.

separ
19-08-2009, 12:08 AM
LOL what has any of this got to do with Qadianis?

Those people who practice mourning involving flagellation do so out of their intense love for the Ahl ul-Bayt (as) and remembrance of Imam Hussayn (as). Their hearts can barely contain their grief about what happened at Karbala.

The wounds inflicted, as stated before, are extremely MINOR. They are literally skin-deep lacerations with a sharp flat blade. A few drops of blood run from this, and on the basis of that you continue your campaign to oppress the Prophet and his Family (as) and do the Wahhabis' work for them as you make light of their remembrance and demonise them for it.

There are trancers in Indonesia who routinely knock pieces of flesh out of their backs using large tree-felling axes during full-force flagellation, shove massive conical rods through their cheeks and self-inflict terrible injuries during their cultural rituals. In India there are yogis who perform extraordinarily painful exercises involving self-inflicted injuries too. Firewalkers exist everywhere in the world, in every culture and without reference to religion, causing injury to themselves that heal in a matter of days. And what do you have to say about the training of traditional Chinese child gymnasts and opera dancers?

However, all this seems to escape your radar completely, unsurprisingly. Rather, you focus all your bitterness and vitriol on the community of believers in Islam as you focus on one or two drops of blood from extremely minor lacerations that heal permanently and very quickly. Mothers do not allow significant injuries to EVER befall their children, in any culture. Don't mothers take their children to the hospital or health centre for injections and innoculations? That involves a slight laceration too (and sometimes deeper tissue trauma but again, that's not significant as it heals FULLY and very quickly).

When you focus all your underpowered efforts on attacking the way of Islam, you only make things easier for us as you define yourself as a nasibi. You don't care what anyone does, and you certainly don't care about the welfare of children as you pretend. You just want to find any way to criticise the Prophets and Imams. However, we have faced much worse oppression than your uninformed and unskilful trolling. ;)

islamvslizards
19-08-2009, 10:45 AM
WTF:confused: They are forcing the head cutting of month old babys and small children and you think that's okay:confused:

i was talking generally of azadari. doing it on babies and small children is a tiny, almost insignificant fraction of numbers of people who do it. however it is one that is blown out of all proportion and over sentationalised by those who.

i will say that, since azadari itself is not listed in the shia "usool" or "furu", it is not a fundamental part of religion as, say, prayer or fasting. and of that, qamma zani is not part of azadari, and of qamma zani, doing it on kids is even more controvertial. do i agree with it? well, im not planning on doing to my own kids but im not about to stick my nose into what other people do.


Consenting adults that's up to them.

obviously


And you never replied when I asked do you agree with genital mutilation of girls?

why would i reply to such a question that you know my answer?

and please - save yourself the effort of cutting and pasting dodgy hadiths by dodgy narrator chains in dodgy hadith books which "prove" that islam commands it.

islam does not command it. it has no basis in sharia. i do not agree with it therefore.


I know you think mutilation of boys is a good thing. Of course I strongly disagree with mutilation of boys and girls.

good for you.

and there are many reliable scientists who agree with me, instead of you re: circumcision of boys. as you well know. you post articles and websites dated over a decade ago (im sure i read "1995" a few times), while i provide articles from this year (2009) in some of the most reputable peer reviewed scientific journals in the world.

i know which set of evidence ill follow, thanks all the same.

eternal_spirit
11-01-2010, 02:50 PM
In these pictures it seems that it´s mostly the little children who are mourning, the grown ups who are perpetrating this sick tradition on them are smiling ever so smugly. "Cultural space" pffft...
Indeed. It's pure evil, how can they do this to their children.

scooby85
11-01-2010, 05:18 PM
The practice of circumcision in Islam comes from the Hadith, Shariah law and the consensus of Islamic communities.

The Hadith

Narrated Umm Atiyyah al-Ansariyyah: A woman used to perform circumcision in Medina. The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said to her: Do not cut severely as that is better for a woman and more desirable for a husband. (Sunan Abu-Dawud: book 41, number 5251, Hasan)

Part 2.
The Shariah

The following reference to Shariah law comes from Ahmad ibn Naqib al-Misri, Reliance of the Traveller - A Classic Manual of Islamic Sacred Law. This book comes with the approval al-Azhar University.

Al-Azhar University ( الأزهر الشريف) is the leading institution for Sunni learning in the Islamic world.

Circumcision was introduced to the Iranians through Islam

However the practice has a long history in the middle east and was closely related to rituals dedicated to ancient gods and goddesses of fertility. Ancient Mesopotamian had festivals where the actual organ of a young boy was cut off and dedicated to the fertility goddess. The action was later reduced to inducing an incision instead. The blood was offered to the goddess and the occasion was celebrated publicly. In the old kingdom of Egypt myth contended that blood from circumcision to guarantee the fertility realted to the river Nile, and early Egpytian myth contended that blood from circumcision of another god fell down and created the universe. In one document from Egypt a man is stating that he was circumcised with 120 males and 120 females.

The prophet Muhammad himself is quoted as saying " It is an ordinance in men and honourable in women" indicating that the practise is very strongly urged, if not required outright. Many Islamic theologians have insisted that Muhammed and indeed all prophets were born circumcised.:rolleyes: It is practised on Both male an female children born to Muslim parents as well of males of any age who join the religion. Most literature regarding circumcision is found in "hadith" these are narratives, sayings and deeds of prophet and his associates recorded by Muslim scholars and biographers. Legal discussions in the hadith literature about it resemble Talmudic discussions on issues of religious importance to Jews. Additionally the language used by the arabic sources evokes the more familiar Hebrew terminology.

Like the Quran, the different reports in the Hadith literature reveal little information concerning the reasons for male circumcision among Muslims. On the other hand reports point to one's status as a Muslim, a practitioner of the faith of Allah. Similarily other traditions teach that certain Islamic practices require the participants to be circumcise Muslims. These can include coversion, pilgramage to Mecca, inheritance, even prayer.

Shiite traditions regard the practice obligatory and tend to lead toward the extreme side on the issue. One account relates that the earth cries out to god in anguish on account of the uncircumcised. Another notes that Muslims should circumcise their sons on the seventh day, if not the earth becomes ritually contaminated for 40 days. Hadith are reported that the Prophet's grandsons Hassan and Husayn were circumcised on the seventh day after their birth and Fatima herself is quoted talking about her son's circumcision on this day.

The most common hadith attributed to the Prophet himself, mentions it in a list of practices known as "fitrah" meaning natural way or instinct. Abu Hurayra a companion of the prophet quotes, "five things are fitrah: circumcision, shaving the body with a razor, trimming the moustache, paring one's nails and plucking the hair from one's armpits" (al-Bukhari, al-Jami' al-sahih)
more here really bizzare
http://www.iranchamber.com/culture/a...rcumcision.php (http://www.iranchamber.com/culture/articles/rituals_of_circumcision.php)

And this is the 5th time ive seen this article posted by you.. whats it this week, 10p per copy and paste?

Let me tell you something it might shock you... Circumcision in islam is not mandatory but recommended but you probs no that so carry on with your bs

scooby85
11-01-2010, 05:22 PM
is it just me or is in eternal_spirit really anti-muslim? most of the posts he/she has made have been about the 'things that these people do, the shock horror'

Haha it took you that long to figure that out?

Hes an agent if ever iv known one..i mean come on who spends 12 hours everyday on d.i forum rambling on about islam bad islam this/that and post pics to shock and spread hatred without getting paid?

If hes not getting paid than that just makes him even sadder, i actually feel sorry for him he has no life :(

scooby85
11-01-2010, 05:26 PM
that questionable (at best) hadith is not referring to blood rituals in azadari.

so yet again you are proven as a liar.



when did i deny it was done by muslims? i said prove that the prophet/quran/imams encouraged it or did it.

yet again, you are proven as a liar.



the vast majority of scholars have banned it outright with a tiny minority allowing it. so yet again you are proven as a liar.



i am aware of why they are doing it.

i am asking you to prove how blood rituals, that some choose to do as a part of it, has any foundation in islam.

which it doesnt. since it isnt mentioned in the quran, or done by the prophet or imams or even mentioned by any of them.

so yet again, you are proven as a liar.

I have proved him to be a liar on countless occasions, his come back to that accusation is usually, no your the liar (without ANY proof even when requested!)

Like I said he never gives a straight/direct answer its becasue he cant, so what he will do is copy and paste tons of bs info and flood the topic to divert attention away from him as he cant answer a question.. its a very sly tactic he uses, a typical 'agent' tactic one would say

scooby85
11-01-2010, 05:32 PM
Awww.. I replied but you never answered..blegh..Credibility!!! lol


HAHA THIS PROVES EXACTLY WHAT I SAID ABOUT HIM IN MY LAST POST!!!!

No you didnt answer you f*ckface.. he asked you where in islam it condones the cutting of a childs face/body for religious purposes? again you couldnt answer so changed the topic and you replied back with some bullshit about circumcision which he didnt ask you about! And while were on that subject.. as you are fully aware circumcision is NOT mandatory

fking lieing bastid, you cant help it its in your blood

orlibonurb
11-01-2010, 07:29 PM
HAHA THIS PROVES EXACTLY WHAT I SAID ABOUT HIM IN MY LAST POST!!!!

No you didnt answer you f*ckface.. he asked you where in islam it condones the cutting of a childs face/body for religious purposes? again you couldnt answer so changed the topic and you replied back with some bullshit about circumcision which he didnt ask you about! And while were on that subject.. as you are fully aware circumcision is NOT mandatory

fking lieing bastid, you cant help it its in your blood


allah (satan / pagan moon god allah) aproves that language.

eternal_spirit
11-01-2010, 08:12 PM
More Taqiyya and kitman from Lizard and scoobs. Wtf are you blabbing about, the opening posts proves it is an Islamic thing in honour of Hussein Ali your Shia Martyr. You are shia Muslim aren't you? So you should be well aware of this blood cutting ritual and the story and history of why it's so.

Shiites marched in honour of Hussein recently in England. Videos on you tube etc, tried to look for you but you guys all look the same :D (but they are not allowed to cut themselves or their children in England, so they only bang their chests with their fist.


In the Ashura rites, Shiites march in huge processions, beating their chests in mourning for Hussein's martyrdom at Karbala -- a city in present-day Iraq -- in A.D. 680. The most fervent cut themselves with swords or razors or lash themselves with razor-lined chains to draw blood.
The bloodletting is a reminder of Hussein's suffering, as well as punishment for the failure of Muslims to help Hussein in his battle against Islamic ruler Yazid, leader of what became the majority Sunni branch of Islam.
Hussein was the son of Ali, the Prophet Muhammad's cousin, who Shiites believe should have been his rightful successor.


Me a liar LOL, take a look in the mirror boy.

eternal_spirit
12-01-2010, 02:06 AM
I have proved him to be a liar on countless occasions, his come back to that accusation is usually, no your the liar (without ANY proof even when requested!)

Like I said he never gives a straight/direct answer its becasue he cant, so what he will do is copy and paste tons of bs info and flood the topic to divert attention away from him as he cant answer a question.. its a very sly tactic he uses, a typical 'agent' tactic one would say
So are you gonna admit everything you said about me is wrong? because it is. Calling me names adds proof that it's you who is wrong. I've proven you liar many times in many threads, and I've done it again on this one.

eternal_spirit
12-01-2010, 02:16 AM
HAHA THIS PROVES EXACTLY WHAT I SAID ABOUT HIM IN MY LAST POST!!!!

No you didnt answer you f*ckface.. he asked you where in islam it condones the cutting of a childs face/body for religious purposes? again you couldnt answer so changed the topic and you replied back with some bullshit about circumcision which he didnt ask you about! And while were on that subject.. as you are fully aware circumcision is NOT mandatory

fking lieing bastid, you cant help it its in your blood
Erm read the opening post.


The preferred age is often seven although some Muslims are circumcised as early as the seventh day after birth and as late as puberty.

And girls no need for words the pic says it all

http://filipinaatheist.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/genital-mutilation.jpg

scooby85
12-01-2010, 02:20 AM
More Taqiyya and kitman from Lizard and scoobs. Wtf are you blabbing about, the opening posts proves it is an Islamic thing in honour of Hussein Ali your Shia Martyr. You are shia Muslim aren't you? So you should be well aware of this blood cutting ritual and the story and history of why it's so.

Shiites marched in honour of Hussein recently in England. Videos on you tube etc, tried to look for you but you guys all look the same :D (but they are not allowed to cut themselves or their children in England, so they only bang their chests with their fist.


In the Ashura rites, Shiites march in huge processions, beating their chests in mourning for Hussein's martyrdom at Karbala -- a city in present-day Iraq -- in A.D. 680. The most fervent cut themselves with swords or razors or lash themselves with razor-lined chains to draw blood.
The bloodletting is a reminder of Hussein's suffering, as well as punishment for the failure of Muslims to help Hussein in his battle against Islamic ruler Yazid, leader of what became the majority Sunni branch of Islam.
Hussein was the son of Ali, the Prophet Muhammad's cousin, who Shiites believe should have been his rightful successor.


Me a liar LOL, take a look in the mirror boy.

Sorry which bit is it that im meant to be lying about??

And no im not a shiite as iv told you before, neither am i a sunni or any other sect, im just a muslim, no sects attached...

Right you were meant to prove where in the quran or hadith does it condone this act. So come on you still havnt given me a DIRECT answer? Like I said, people, groups, regions can have an islamic name but their actions may not be..the quran forbids these sort of actions where one harms himself, anyone who catches you out you always use the same line 'ur a liar' :rolleyes: grow up!

Try another lie....

eternal_spirit
12-01-2010, 02:22 AM
And no im not a shiite as iv told you before, neither am i a sunni or any other sect, im just a muslim, no sects attached...
More lies. No such thing as just a Muslim.

scooby85
12-01-2010, 02:32 AM
Erm read the opening post.


The preferred age is often seven although some Muslims are circumcised as early as the seventh day after birth and as late as puberty.

And girls no need for words the pic says it all

http://filipinaatheist.files.wordpress.com/2009/01/genital-mutilation.jpg

Here you ago agent es uses the shock tactic once again, i can read you like a book :rolleyes:

I have read the opening post, and gues what, IT STILL DOESNT SAY WHERE IN THE QURAN OR HADITH IT CONDONES THIS BEHAVIOR?

I know many muslims but never heard of an occasion where a female got circumcised, theres no verses in the quran that mentions circumcision of any gender, only a hadith that doesnt say its compulsory for men but recommend, now scientists are finding many benefits to the snip... female snip is a cultural thing that happens in east africa 90% of the time...try another shock tactic...

so which bit is it that im meant to be lying about?? please back up your words for once

scooby85
12-01-2010, 02:38 AM
More lies. No such thing as just a Muslim.

more lies? shut the fk up...what do you mean theres no such thing as a muslim? I think i know what i am thanks.. Im not sunni or shiite im someone who tries to follow the quran as best as i can and the hadiths that compliment the quran.

old major
12-01-2010, 02:42 AM
Wow!!!

what a shitty religion.

scooby85
12-01-2010, 02:44 AM
More lies. No such thing as just a Muslim.

you quoted the first bit of the post but conveniently didnt reply to the other half :rolleyes: Right you were meant to prove where in the quran or hadith does it condone this act. So come on you still havnt given me a DIRECT answer?

agent es is looking silly.. your paymasters wont be happy!

scooby85
12-01-2010, 02:46 AM
Wow!!!

what a shitty religion.

Someones a bit.. mentally challenged.

Good debate mate! :D

eternal_spirit
12-01-2010, 02:52 AM
Wow!!!

what a shitty religion.
Yeah that's what I've been saying for the past year. The deeper you look the worse it is.

The reaction on some of my threads is very strange. The abuse aimed at me is beyond ridiculous. They won't silence me through bullying.

I show absolute proof (it's not possible to do more) guess some here don't want truth even when it's handed to them.

Some people here are Muslims but will never say so. Severely brainwashed religious mind controlled people do this to children.

eternal_spirit
12-01-2010, 03:28 AM
Scooby it's been covered here on this very thread post 3

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1188813&postcount=3

And here on another thread it's there for all to see, so accept reality.
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1058479427&postcount=116

old major
12-01-2010, 03:32 AM
Yeah that's what I've been saying for the past year. The deeper you look the worse it is.

The reaction on some of my threads is very strange. The abuse aimed at me is beyond ridiculous. They won't silence me through bullying.

I show absolute proof (it's not possible to do more) guess some here don't want truth even when it's handed to them.

Some people here are Muslims but will never say so. Severely brainwashed religious mind controlled people do this to children.

One book that really woke me up is called United In Hate: The Left's Romance With Tyranny and Terror

It basically shows how many western leftists support radical Islamism the same way they supported Communist dictators during the cold war.

The focus is on radical fundamentalists not moderate Muslims.

I think all religion is primitive and should be left behind but Islam has got to be one of the worst. We can only hope more Muslims embrace a more liberal interpretation.

I've read enough of the Koran to know that a literal interpretation is a threat to all humanity.

fist fury
12-01-2010, 04:16 AM
Do not blame islam. blame it on the lineage of the family.

years ago our enlightened brethen have left the pits known as the middle east. ever since the jews and the farcians aka persians, destroyed the genuine civilizations of Meso-Anatolia-Caucaus. It is they who let savaregy, ignorance and regression flourish. Islam is only the symptom, the people are the true cancer and they are spreading.

old major
12-01-2010, 04:22 AM
more lies? shut the fk up...what do you mean theres no such thing as a muslim? I think i know what i am thanks.. Im not sunni or shiite im someone who tries to follow the quran as best as i can and the hadiths that compliment the quran.

Hope you don't follow Sura 4:34 and Sura 9:5.

eternal_spirit
12-01-2010, 05:34 AM
Scooby it's been covered here on this very thread post 3

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1188813&postcount=3

And here on another thread it's there for all to see, so accept reality.
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1058479427&postcount=116
Scoobs I am not saying all Muslims circumcise their women. But there's a fair amount who do in some countries, and the practice I think predates Islam, maybe something to do with African Voodoo tribal initiations/rituals (as well as other cultures, something I will look into and try find the origins of)

Some base their desicions on the words of Muhammad/Hadiths and high ranking religious authorities. The links provided show this. The second one is a long article with many links.

eternal_spirit
12-01-2010, 05:40 AM
Do not blame islam. blame it on the lineage of the family.

years ago our enlightened brethen have left the pits known as the middle east. ever since the jews and the farcians aka persians, destroyed the genuine civilizations of Meso-Anatolia-Caucaus. It is they who let savaregy, ignorance and regression flourish. Islam is only the symptom, the people are the true cancer and they are spreading.
Iran/Iraq (formerly known as Persia) was an Aryan civilisation so was/is India and Afghanistan before Islam invaded and took over. Even though the majority religion is Islam, the majority of people are still Aryan.

It's the usual story of Arabs and Semites. But that's another topic.

scooby85
13-01-2010, 07:03 PM
Yeah that's what I've been saying for the past year. The deeper you look the worse it is.

The reaction on some of my threads is very strange. The abuse aimed at me is beyond ridiculous. They won't silence me through bullying.

I show absolute proof (it's not possible to do more) guess some here don't want truth even when it's handed to them.

Some people here are Muslims but will never say so. Severely brainwashed religious mind controlled people do this to children.

Haha you are hilarious!!! :D

note:www.ihateislam.com is NOT 'absolute proof'

scooby85
13-01-2010, 07:08 PM
Scooby it's been covered here on this very thread post 3

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1188813&postcount=3

And here on another thread it's there for all to see, so accept reality.
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=1058479427&postcount=116

All i see there is a shit loads of copy and paste jobs but still no answer to my question.. I may have missed it even though iv read it a few times..so save me the hassle of checking again and just pick out the part which 'allegedly' answers my question!

ffs you still havnt answered my original question..so for the 12th time.. where in the QURAN does it allow people to harm themselves/others?? (to beat their kids to mourn an imam)

But if you still want to change the subject and talk about circumsicion, thats fine..
Where in the quran does it allow circumsicion?
Is circumcision an obligatory practice?

No? so now, please shut the fuck up!

scooby85
13-01-2010, 07:13 PM
I've read enough of the Koran to know that a literal interpretation is a threat to all humanity.

reading a few lines from an anti islamic site does not mean you have read the quran.. I can garantee you, that youve not picked up a quran and read the translation but rather found a site that nitpicks verses and purposely portrays a diff context to what it actually means..so cut the crap out

scooby85
13-01-2010, 07:28 PM
Hope you don't follow Sura 4:34 and Sura 9:5.

this one?


"Men are (meant to be righteous and kind) guardians of women because God has favored some more than others and because they (i.e. men) spend out of their wealth. (In their turn) righteous women are (meant to be) devoted and to guard what God has (willed to be) guarded even though out of sight (of the husband). As for those (women) on whose part you fear ill-will and nasty conduct, admonish them (first), (next) separate them in beds (and last) beat them (lightly). But if they obey you, then seek nothing against them. Behold, God is most high and great. (4:34)

If your hatred didnt blind you then youd actually know that christianity and judaism also allow that..

And if anything this actually PROTECTS the woman. In many many cultures and countries around the world, the wife gets beaten senseless for minor things, this verse prohibits that straight away. Just because youv had a disagreement with your wife, you cant beat her. Its only for desperate situations, its a step below divorce.
Look at steps you have to go to, to get to the beat them lightly stage:

Warn them first

Sleep away from her

Then lightly beat her if the previous steps didnt work

And if none of the stages work, divorce her


If you were married to a woman who was a dick, she didnt listen to you at all, wouldnt care for her kids, would go out till stupid o clock at night and get drunk.. what would you do? The most youd want is for her to stop this madness for the sake of ur kids, you wouldnt want to divorce her cos of the kids so youd try anything to make her see sense, and if that means beating her lightly as a last resort to see if she will change then fair play. Whats worse, kids growing up without their mum, or the mum get getting a slap, which she deserves?? Its beautiful!

And do you want me to post verses about the men having to look after their wives and being kind to them? Its funny that..theres about a hundred verses regarding the good treatment of women yet you happen to pick one that (you thought) harmed woman..

scooby85
13-01-2010, 07:37 PM
Hope you don't follow Sura 4:34 and Sura 9:5.

Oh look, looks like i was bang on in my last post about nit picking verses..surprise surprise...not! :rolleyes:

9:5 Then, when the sacred months have passed, slay the idolaters wherever ye find them, and take them (captive), and besiege them, and prepare for them each ambush. But if they repent and establish worship and pay the poor-due, then leave their way free. Lo! Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.

Now I know for sure that you havnt read the quran but u rather nit pick of bs sites, just like i said you would... Why didnt you post the two verses before this verse and the one after? It changes the WHOLE context of this verse. Heres it is:

9:3 A proclamation to the people from God and His apostle on the day of the greater pilgrimage:

God and His apostle are under no obligation to the idolaters. If you repent, it shall be well with you; but if you give no heed, know that you shall not be immune from God’s judgement.

Proclaim a woeful punishment to the unbelievers,

9:4 except to those idolaters who have honoured their treaties with you in every detail and aided none against you. With these keep faith, until their treaties have run their term. God loves the righteous.

Hmmm doesnt sound too bad now does it??

Islam is the only (abrahamic) religion to actually give the non muslims a chance to live in a state of war, if they are caught, they should be firstly, be asked to convert, if they dont they have to pay tax (protection from the state inc) if they agree to none of these they will be killed.. like i said its a beautiful religion :)

and the verse following that verse you quoted changes the context even more:


9:6 If an idolater seeks asylum with you, give him protection so that he may hear the Word of God, and then convey him to safety. For the idolaters are ignorant men.

God is saying give your enemy protection!!! what an evil religion ay?

I cant see the us soldiers capturing a freedom fighter and giving him two chances to live can u? :rolleyes: they are doing alot worse to muslims today, they are killing innocent children and woman, something islam has never done but you dont kick up a fuss regarding that do you..

old major
15-01-2010, 02:55 AM
Islam is the only (abrahamic) religion to actually give the non muslims a chance to live in a state of war, if they are caught, they should be firstly, be asked to convert, if they dont they have to pay tax (protection from the state inc) if they agree to none of these they will be killed.. like i said its a beautiful religion :)

So either fight, pay tax, convert or die. You think this is acceptable in our day and age?

Yeah I know Muslims believe every word in the Koran is from God, but good luck forcing that shit on us. You just re confirmed what I have come to know about Islam.

I think all religions are primitive and should be left behind.

scooby85
15-01-2010, 03:42 PM
Yeah I know Muslims believe every word in the Koran is from God, but good luck forcing that shit on us. You just re confirmed what I have come to know about Islam.

I think all religions are primitive and should be left behind.

why is it primitive? is it cos it doesnt allow drinking, gambling, adultery, sex outside marriage, usury etc? You take those things out of your 'civilised' society and see how much better your society becomes...

So either fight, pay tax, convert or die. You think this is acceptable in our day and age?

Its more acceptable than any other cult/race. What your talking about is only in the state of war and in wars these days not many armies give you 2 chances to live before they kill you!

Well seeing as in 'your' society, innocent people are being brutally murdered, raped by your 'soldiers' in the year 2010..is that acceptable in this day and age??

This 'primitive' religion doesnt allow that EVEN in the state of war. Such an evil religion ay :rolleyes:

eternal_spirit
15-01-2010, 03:55 PM
why is it primitive? is it cos it doesnt allow drinking, gambling, adultery, sex outside marriage, usury etc? You take those things out of your 'civilised' society and see how much better your society becomes...
It's based on primitive ancient society, and Sharia which is not civilised and has no place in modern
societies, it just causes divisions.
Muhammad and his buddies drank date wine.

The two dirty secrets of Islamic banking, however, are that, like all banks, Sharia banks do charge interest – they just give it another name – and that the clerics supervising the banks have ties to extremist, even terrorist, groups which work towards the Islamization of Europe and world dominance.
Helena Christofi, an expert on Sharia banking, explains that Islamic banks extend a type of Islamic “credit,” called murabaha, that shifts risk to the borrower in a manner similar to interest.
Apart from the already established Sharia law courts across the country, the Treasury plans to rewrite Britain’s tax rules to usher in a new wave of Sharia law for Britain’s financial system, according to a one-line sentence buried in the recently released pre-Budget report.
According to reports, the Government wants to tap into the fast-growing Sharia finance market, set to top £205 billion a year, and turn London into the “global gateway for Islamic finance.”

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=73899

scooby85
15-01-2010, 04:27 PM
It's based on primitive ancient society, and Sharia which is not civilised and has no place in modern
societies, it just causes divisions.
Muhammad and his buddies drank date wine.


Ive not come across that but he may have done when it was halal... as it was before him. He only received his prophet hood at 40 years old and at that time is was allowed.

old major
16-01-2010, 09:28 PM
why is it primitive? is it cos it doesnt allow drinking, gambling, adultery, sex outside marriage, usury etc? You take those things out of your 'civilised' society and see how much better your society becomes...

[B]Its more acceptable than any other cult/race. What your talking about is only in the state of war and in wars these days not many armies give you 2 chances to live before they kill you!

Islam started around 610 AD, it belongs to another era. Sure some in the West take the vices you mentioned too far just as some Muslims take their religion too far.

Like I said before I don't see much wrong with holding onto the good aspects and cultural heritage that is passed down from religion. The only problem is when we read the Bible or Koran as if it was literally from the Creator, yeah I know they both claim too be, but is it not more likely that these books are simply man made.

All of us (Christians, Jews , Muslims, Hindus etc.) need to move on and stop fooling ourselves that we can read the Creators words in a book.

goanna
16-01-2010, 09:30 PM
It's important to tell the truth right? First thread I've dedicated to relgious rituals
Believe me this will be a good thread exposing sick rituals.

yeah...tell us the truth about the filth in the talmud.

freeman craig
17-01-2010, 12:28 AM
in reading this post it seems so obvious how well religion has served its purpose in dividing people and causing conflict. its nothing more then gang mentality all the abrahamic religions are totally corrupted for the purposes of controlling the masses. there are good and bad in all of them and one is not worse then the other it really is school ground stuff my gangs better then your gang whilst the gang leaders sit back and enjoy the fruits of thier labour. The catholic church has done its fair share of butchering in its past i just hope that islamic faith will grow out of it asap whether cultural or religious it needs to stop, the mutilation of children is wrong and the unfair treatment of women belongs in the dark ages and has no place in a modern society. A male dominated society has caused the shit we are in now its about time women had a equal input to balance it out.

eternal_spirit
13-03-2010, 01:24 PM
It's sick.

jadeinjapan
13-03-2010, 01:41 PM
it just causes divisions.

Thought you really liked divisions.

picha
13-03-2010, 02:07 PM
Thought you really liked divisions.

Are you japanese or just live there?

picha
13-03-2010, 02:07 PM
Of course Apostates Should Be Killed



By



Bassam Zawadi





There seems to be a problem with many "modernist and liberal" Muslims out there who would like to "sugarcoat" the religion of Islam by distorting what it really teaches. There are those that go at length to deny that Islam teaches that apostates must be killed. They either deny the explicit hadith that speak about this or reinterpret it to only refer to those apostates that would fight the Muslims.



This is false. I am not going to spend time in this article trying to prove that Islam does call for the killing of apostates and the rules and conditions behind killing apostates (e.g. the apostate must be interrogated first in order to refute what doubts he has for three days, etc.) for I am assuming that my readers already adhere to and have knowledge of the orthodox position regarding the matter. What I want to speak about in this article is the reason for Islam ordering the killing of apostates.



Before I proceed, let me make it clear that when I speak about apostates that must be killed I am only referring to those apostates who live under an Islamic theocratic state and have openly declared their apostasy. What this means is that no Muslim has a right to go to America or Europe for example and start killing ex-Muslims, for he has no such authority to do so.



People find it difficult to grasp why apostasy is a crime that is so great that it would call for a punishment (i.e. execution) that is more severe than say fornication (i.e. flogging), deliberate and preplanned theft (i.e. cutting of the hand), etc. However, with careful contemplation and a realization of the reality of the issue at hand, the matter should be easy for one to swallow.



If someone tells you that the state executed a man who was guilty of murdering someone by stabbing him repeatedly, would you shout "This is injustice! Why did you execute this man! His crime wasn't that great!"?



I believe that many of us would not say so. I believe many of us would say that the murderer deserved to be executed because of the gravity of his heinous crime. Not too many of us would sympathize with such a man. This man made his innocent victim suffer greatly each time his knife penetrated his flesh. He caused him so much physical pain that the man suffered greatly even though it was only for a matter of a few minutes.



Now let us come to the apostate. A person who would openly declare his apostasy affects the people around him. The people around him might ask themselves "Why on earth did this Muslim leave Islam? Is he out of his mind? Or maybe he discovered something wrong with Islam? Maybe Islam isn't that clear after all!" These people would then start to doubt their religion. If they seriously doubt their religion, they cease to be Muslims. If they cease to be Muslims that would very likely land them up in the blazing fire of Hell for eternity.



In the previous example, we saw that the murderer was executed because he caused his victim so much physical pain even though it was only for a matter of a few minutes, however with the apostate we see that he could cause the people around him so much spiritual damage by destroying their souls that these people could land up in the blazing fire of Hell for eternity.



With all honesty, which crime is worse? Stabbing a person for a few minutes or making him burn for eternity? The answer is obvious and we know that it is the latter. If the latter crime is much worse, why are we insisting that it is difficult to grasp why Islam would call for the killing of apostates then?



I believe that this is for two reasons:



- Lack of faith or no faith at all in the truth of Islam.

- This Islamic Practice is Immoral According to non-Muslim Standards





Lack of faith or no faith at all in the truth of Islam



Many Muslims with weak faith still fail to fully comprehend the seriousness and gravity of kufr (disbelief). They fail to recognize its deadly results (i.e. Hellfire) because the crime of the apostate towards his victims won't be displayed or shown in this life, but in the after life (i.e. you would only realize the pain that the apostate will go through in the next life and not in this one, thus you don't see the seriousness of apostasy with your own eyes now), therefore they find it difficult to accept the fact that apostates must be punished in this life. However, if one has strong faith (especially in the fact that apostates will go to hell if they don't repent) and the correct understanding of the seriousness of Kufr then it only takes common sense to figure out why apostates must be killed.



Non-Muslims will of course (and understandably) argue that they don't even believe in Islam in the first place. If they don't believe in Islam, how could Muslims impose such rules upon them?



Islam already acknowledges the fact that there would be those that would hate to see Islam succeed and impose its ruling on others (Surah 8:8, 9:32-33, 10:82, 40:14, 61:8-9), thus non-Muslims complaining about how they don't "like" or agree with certain Islamic laws is something that is already expected.



Now since non-Muslims don't "like" or agree with the law of killing of the apostate they would argue that Muslims should be "open minded" and allow people to freely choose whatever religion they please. They would argue back that religion is only between God and the person. It is no body else's business.



Muslims could easily reply back by saying:



- You non-Muslims say that people should be free to practice their religion. Our religion states that apostates must be killed. So allow us to "freely practice our religion". If you don't allow us to, you are contradicting your selves then.

- Muslims would hate it if apostates were allowed to be free to run around publicly displaying their apostasy and see their loved ones getting affected by it. Why should Muslims suffer by standing back and watching this all happen? Why do non-Muslims insist that they don't get affected while Muslims must? These are double standards.

- You say that "religion is only between God and the person", fine so if someone apostatizes let him keep it between God and himself in private and not publicly display it. If he chooses to go public with it and start affecting others, then he hasn't made his religion only between himself and God but involved others as well. If he involved others as well, then others (i.e. the Islamic state) have the right to intervene.





Non-Muslims would also argue back that the apostate's intention is sincere. He is not intentionally trying to lure people into hell. They would say that we must take his intentions into account.



First of all, Muslims do take his intentions into account and this is precisely why we won't go ahead and have the apostate killed immediately. The authorities will bring the apostate in for questioning and ask him to lay out all the doubts that he has regarding Islam. Muslim scholars will be appointed to answer his questions. If he is not convinced and it appears to the scholars that his reasons for leaving are not valid (usually they are not valid, most people leave Islam for emotional reasons) they would then have him executed.



Secondly, it is not an excuse for us to let an apostate go free doing what he pleases just because his "intentions are sincere". At the end of the day, this is affecting the people around him and he must be stopped.



Millions of people around the world don't believe that marijuana should be made illegal. They believe that it is a natural plant and "gift from God" as singer Carlos Santana said.



Their intentions are sincere, but just because their intentions are sincere that doesn't mean that we legalize marijuana. That doesn't mean that we just stand by and let them get away with their crime. They are made aware of the punishment of breaking the law and should be held accountable regardless of what their intentions are. If they don't agree with the law, that is too bad. They have to deal with it.



The same applies to the apostate. He must obey the law. Him not agreeing with or liking the law means absolutely nothing.



Should we implement the law to please God and displease the apostate or should we remove the law to displease God and please the apostate? It is definitely not the latter.





This Islamic Practice is Immoral According to non-Muslim Standards



Both Muslims and Christians believe in the Divine Command Theory, which teaches that our morals are derived from God's commands. One cannot presuppose that something is moral or immoral and then judge whether something is moral or immoral. Rather, one has to know what is moral and immoral by knowing what God has said about the matter.



Dr. William Lane Craig himself states:



So the problem isn't that God ended the Canaanites' lives. The problem is that He commanded the Israeli soldiers to end them. Isn't that like commanding someone to commit murder? No, it's not. Rather, since our moral duties are determined by God's commands, it is commanding someone to do something which, in the absence of a divine command, would have been murder. The act was morally obligatory for the Israeli soldiers in virtue of God's command, even though, had they undertaken it on their on initiative, it would have been wrong.



On divine command theory, then, God has the right to command an act, which, in the absence of a divine command, would have been sin, but which is now morally obligatory in virtue of that command. (William Lane Craig, Slaughter of the Canaanites, Source)



As Dr. Craig rightfully states, we can't state that something is immoral unless we have evidence that God has not divinely approved of it.



So when non-Muslims say that Islam's ordering for the killing of apostates is immoral, they are begging the question that Islam is false and is not the ultimate standard of morality to follow.



In order to put forth a successful argument, our opponents must level a stronger critique.



There are two kinds of critiques that one can form.



1) Internal critique:



This is criticizing someone or something by pointing out its internal inconsistencies. This is usually a strong argument. Now, have non-Muslims put forth an internal critique against the killing of apostates? Actually, they haven't. They have not shown how this law contradicts other Islamic principles.



2) External critique:



This is using an external standard to judge somebody or something in order to critique that person or thing.



There are two types of external critique:



i) Universalist external critique:



This is appealing to universal standards and beliefs (e.g. raping a little child is wrong according to everyone) as a standard. However, have non-Muslims shown that killing of apostates violates universal standards? Of course not. One can appeal to early Christians who have ordered the killing of apostates as well.



ii) Ethnocentric external critique:



This is appealing to one's own cultural or religious beliefs as a standard for critiquing. Philosophers have stated that this form of argumentation is weak unless one can prove that the standard that he is using should be binding upon everyone.



Now, this is the kind of critique that non-Muslims are launching.



They must be using a moral law in order to judge whether the killing of apostates is moral or not. If they are using a moral law, then that implies that there is a moral law giver that they are appealing to.



If the person arguing is an atheist then this is not a problem. One who does not believe in God does not have an objective standard of morality to abide by anyways. So he might be using his culture or personal opinions and feelings as a standard to critique the law of killing apostates. If that is the case, then this argument is not threatening at all because it is not based on an objective standard, but a subjective emotional one.



If the person arguing is a Christian we are going to assume that his moral law giver is the God of the Bible. Have they proven that the law of killing apostates cannot possibly be a law put forth by God? No they cannot. One can easily appeal to the Old Testament and point out verses that order the killing of apostates.



These Christians might argue back that this law was a long time ago, but now we are in the 21st century. However, this response is weak because God's laws are not supposed to adapt with the times, but vice versa.



Secondly, even if Christians were able to prove that this law violated Biblical standards for morality then SO WHAT?



Why should I care if a particular Islamic law did not live up to the moral standards of the Bible? Have Christians shown us that the Bible is the complete true word of God and that it is binding upon us? The answer is no.



If they would like to reply back and say that the Qur'an affirms the Bible and that means that Muslims should hold the Bible as authoritative, then I ask the reader to refer here.





In conclusion, non-Muslims cannot provide an INTELLECTUAL AND RATIONAL argument against the Islamic law regarding the killing of apostates. They can only provide EMOTIONAL and SUBJECTIVE arguments.



However, Muslims let their rationality overcome their emotions and don't fall for these silly appeal to emotion arguments. That is probably the main reason why we are Muslims.



In conclusion, the Muslim should keep his head up and confidently say:



OF COURSE APOSTATES SHOULD BE KILLED!





Feel free to contact me at [email protected]

scooby85
13-03-2010, 02:41 PM
It's sick.

nice way to bump up a thread :rolleyes:... still waiting for a reply you lieing scum.. tick fuckin tock

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=106698&page=6

jktruth
13-03-2010, 07:48 PM
scoobys got these islam hating threads on smash! these pagans talk the most rubbissh. id help but it dont seem like you need it :)

read hiss posts. real knowledge right there. mashallah akhi keep exposing the bullshitters n being the voice of truth.

when i opened this thread i just sighed. yet anothher one. ES whether your working for them or not. i personally think you are a dummb, dopey completely misguided motha fucka. :D what are you doing with your life man.

So either fight, pay tax, convert or die. You think this is acceptable in our day and age?

Yeah I know Muslims believe every word in the Koran is from God, but good luck forcing that shit on us. You just re confirmed what I have come to know about Islam.

I think all religions are primitive and should be left behind.

my friend do you think we're dumb? obviously there's undeniable proofs that the words are from god. check out all the science in islam. it made me convert, its amazing.

as for this thread... there are no blood rituals/ human sacrifises/ nuna that nonsense in islam. you will not find a single verse in the quran that allows this. keep hating guys.

there is a god! illuminati want your mind soul and your body. save yourselves and search for truth and guidance.

peace. salam alaykum

eternal_spirit
13-03-2010, 08:00 PM
Blah blah blab blib blob blah de blah go the trolls.

Cutting baby's heads -It's sick and it's evil.

mightyoak
13-03-2010, 08:06 PM
Cutting baby's heads -It's sick and it's evil.

Agreed
:p

jktruth
13-03-2010, 08:06 PM
yep i totally agree. but how can u say its a part of islam.

jktruth
13-03-2010, 08:09 PM
do some real research. islam is flawless

eternal_spirit
13-03-2010, 08:13 PM
yep i totally agree. but how can u say its a part of islam.

Read the first post.

jktruth
13-03-2010, 08:16 PM
terrorism? oppressing women? again not a facter. do some research and find the difference between culture and religion.

quran = word of god - flawless. islam = religion of god - beautiful

jktruth
13-03-2010, 08:22 PM
cors i read the post. what i see are the actions of muslims. you can't base a religion of what its followers do if what they are doing is not a bloody part of the religion.

so if i go smoke crack now your gonna make a post. drug taking is a part of islam! na mate. not how it works. i shouldnt even need to be saying this :S
are you stupid or something?

but true they should understand that they are representing the religion, and their actions could be percieved as disgracing it. but you all need to understand that its not permitted in the quran

jktruth
13-03-2010, 08:24 PM
therefore it is not gods will for us

picha
13-03-2010, 10:41 PM
terrorism? oppressing women? again not a facter. do some research and find the difference between culture and religion.

quran = word of god - flawless. islam = religion of god - beautiful

If its the word of god, then why is it that we developed the power to destroy your countries with the press of a button whereas you did not?

picha
14-03-2010, 12:07 AM
If its the word of god, then why is it that we developed the power to destroy your countries with the press of a button whereas you did not?
Just in case you needed a visual reminder:

Tsar bomba - YouTube

Are you feeling inferior yet?

thereisonlywe
14-03-2010, 03:26 AM
If its the word of god, then why is it that we developed the power to destroy your countries with the press of a button whereas you did not?

"Do they not travel through the earth and see what was the End of those before them? They were more numerous than these and superior in strength and in the traces (they have left) in the land: Yet all that they accomplished was of no profit to them." (40:82)

That is why. Greater the ego, greater the fall.

Love&Peace

scooby85
14-03-2010, 03:31 AM
Just in case you needed a visual reminder:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WwlNPhn64TA&feature=related

Are you feeling inferior yet?

omg you should listen to yourself! Like muslim countries havnt got an A bomb :rolleyes:

what are you implying here, that all muslims should be wiped out? probably as its coming from you.. you think that setting off a few big A bombs isnt going to destroy the whole world?

End of the day islam has the biggest army in the world, no country/group/power has the capacity to fight them... when the last war erupts between the illuminati and islam on a global scale you will see that islam will be victorious just like its been prophesied.

scooby85
14-03-2010, 03:38 AM
Blah blah blab blib blob blah de blah go the trolls.

Cutting baby's heads -It's sick and it's evil.

no ones denying that act aint evil but what i am denying is that the act or any act that harms children or even adults are not condoned anywhere in the quran but rather strongly condemned therefore, it is not a part of islam.. do u understand you retard?

while your brain tries to comprehend that how about you you take a look at this post and see if you finally have the balls to admit the fact that you are a pathological liar, if not please to reply to the post for the millionth time and prove me wrong

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=106698&page=6 :)

thereisonlywe
14-03-2010, 04:18 AM
omg you should listen to yourself! Like muslim countries havnt got an A bomb :rolleyes:

what are you implying here, that all muslims should be wiped out? probably as its coming from you.. you think that setting off a few big A bombs isnt going to destroy the whole world?

End of the day islam has the biggest army in the world, no country/group/power has the capacity to fight them... when the last war erupts between the illuminati and islam on a global scale you will see that islam will be victorious just like its been prophesied.

...this is not Islam.

Love&Peace

picha
14-03-2010, 06:23 PM
"Do they not travel through the earth and see what was the End of those before them? They were more numerous than these and superior in strength and in the traces (they have left) in the land: Yet all that they accomplished was of no profit to them." (40:82)

That is why. Greater the ego, greater the fall.

Love&Peace

More circular logic.

picha
14-03-2010, 06:35 PM
omg you should listen to yourself! Like muslim countries havnt got an A bomb :rolleyes:

what are you implying here, that all muslims should be wiped out? probably as its coming from you.. you think that setting off a few big A bombs isnt going to destroy the whole world?

End of the day islam has the biggest army in the world, no country/group/power has the capacity to fight them... when the last war erupts between the illuminati and islam on a global scale you will see that islam will be victorious just like its been prophesied.

Well, the Pakistanis have got a few but not for much longer. What if we use a THEL (tactical high energy laser) to evaporate the Kabba? What will be the point in fighting when you can't go for your silly (PAGAN) little stroll around it anymore?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/17/YAL-1A_Airborne_Laser_unstowed.jpg

Pretty sexy aint it?

picha
14-03-2010, 08:22 PM
well, the pakistanis have got a few but not for much longer. What if we use a thel (tactical high energy laser) to evaporate the kabba? What will be the point in fighting when you can't go for your silly (pagan) little stroll around it anymore?

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/1/17/yal-1a_airborne_laser_unstowed.jpg

pretty sexy aint it?

i will not tolerate being conquered by a bunch of deluded fools who do not have the mental capacity to realize the entire basis of their lives is nothing more than a circular logic fallacy

thereisonlywe
14-03-2010, 08:43 PM
i will not tolerate being conquered by a bunch of deluded fools who do not have the mental capacity to realize the entire basis of their lives is nothing more than a circular logic fallacy

you are already conquered: by your ego.

Love&Peace

picha
14-03-2010, 10:39 PM
you are already conquered: by your ego.

Love&Peace
http://lgo.mit.edu/blog/drewhill/files/nuclear-explosion.jpg
http://super-resources.com/gallery/myPh3.photo/640--2008-12-nuclear%20explosion-explosion09.jpg
http://www.newsgroper.com/files/legacy/nuclear-explosion.jpg
http://jackassoftheweek.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/nuclear-explosion.jpg
http://www.gasstationnearme.com/images/Effects-Of-Nuclear-Explosion.jpg
http://kronemyer.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/nuclear-bomb-explosion.jpg
http://zvis.com/cpg14/displayimage.php?pid=780&fullsize=1
http://ircamera.as.arizona.edu/NatSci102/NatSci102/images/mush.gif
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v701/Artiki/Roboshrubish/nuke.jpg

scooby85
15-03-2010, 12:29 AM
Well, the Pakistanis have got a few but not for much longer. What if we use a THEL (tactical high energy laser) to evaporate the Kabba? What will be the point in fighting when you can't go for your silly (PAGAN) little stroll around it anymore?


Pretty sexy aint it?

geezer listen to yourself purlease!

what do you mean by 'we'? are you apart of the illuminati or something? they dont give a fuck about you or your country so dont try and associate yourself with them.

and they cant evaporate the kabah, its protected by god. If they could why havnt they done it yet? they cant. Although according to islam it will be destroyed one day before the day of judgement and it will be by black people.

did you also know that the last war (muslims v illuminati) will be fought without hi tech weaponary? a prophecy made over a thousands years ago and it will come true, a big solar storm and all the satellites will drop like flies..

the last group that tried to destroy the kabah (sultan abraha) failed surah fil:

Have you not seen how your Lord dealt with the owners of the elephant?

Did He not make their plot go astray?

And send against them birds, in flocks,

Striking them with stones of baked clay.

And made them like an empty field of stalks (of which the corn has been eaten up by cattle)



just remember 'And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah 3:54'

picha
15-03-2010, 12:35 AM
geezer listen to yourself purlease!

what do you mean by 'we'? are you apart of the illuminati or something? they dont give a fuck about you or your country so dont try and associate yourself with them.

and they cant evaporate the kabah, its protected by god. If they could why havnt they done it yet? they cant. Although according to islam it will be destroyed one day before the day of judgement and it will be by black people.

did you also know that the last war (muslims v illuminati) will be fought without hi tech weaponary? a prophecy made over a thousands years ago and it will come true, a big solar storm and all the satellites will drop like flies..

the last group that tried to destroy the kabah (sultan abraha) failed surah fil:




just remember 'And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah 3:54'

Nuclear Bomb - YouTube

picha
15-03-2010, 12:37 AM
geezer listen to yourself purlease!

what do you mean by 'we'? are you apart of the illuminati or something? they dont give a fuck about you or your country so dont try and associate yourself with them.

and they cant evaporate the kabah, its protected by god. If they could why havnt they done it yet? they cant. Although according to islam it will be destroyed one day before the day of judgement and it will be by black people.

did you also know that the last war (muslims v illuminati) will be fought without hi tech weaponary? a prophecy made over a thousands years ago and it will come true, a big solar storm and all the satellites will drop like flies..

the last group that tried to destroy the kabah (sultan abraha) failed surah fil:




just remember 'And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah 3:54'

Nuclear Explosion - YouTube

scooby85
15-03-2010, 01:03 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zsTRxXvQY0s&feature=related

yeah and whats your point?

sidestepping and ignoring posts are becoming a speciality of yours.. been picking up tips from eternal spirit have we...

so go on stop fuckin about and answer my post

scooby85
15-03-2010, 01:06 AM
http://lgo.mit.edu/blog/drewhill/files/nuclear-explosion.jpg
http://super-resources.com/gallery/myPh3.photo/640--2008-12-nuclear%20explosion-explosion09.jpg
http://www.newsgroper.com/files/legacy/nuclear-explosion.jpg
http://jackassoftheweek.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/nuclear-explosion.jpg
http://www.gasstationnearme.com/images/Effects-Of-Nuclear-Explosion.jpg
http://kronemyer.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/nuclear-bomb-explosion.jpg
http://zvis.com/cpg14/displayimage.php?pid=780&fullsize=1
http://ircamera.as.arizona.edu/NatSci102/NatSci102/images/mush.gif
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v701/Artiki/Roboshrubish/nuke.jpg

All these pics of bombs and you have the audacity to call muslims terrorists :rolleyes: you really arnt the sharpest tool in the box

picha
15-03-2010, 11:45 AM
http://www.topfoto.co.uk/gallery/WhenTheWindBlows/images/prevs/hip0004031.jpg
http://kenraggio.com/mushroomCloud.jpg
http://www.popular-pics.com/PPImages/nuclear-test-mushroom-cloud.jpg

scooby85
15-03-2010, 04:00 PM
http://www.topfoto.co.uk/gallery/WhenTheWindBlows/images/prevs/hip0004031.jpg
http://kenraggio.com/mushroomCloud.jpg
http://www.popular-pics.com/PPImages/nuclear-test-mushroom-cloud.jpg

what a sad sad man... still dodging my questions, yeh good one now fuck off

eternal_spirit
15-03-2010, 09:15 PM
.

and they cant evaporate the kabah, its protected by god. If they could why havnt they done it yet? they cant. Although according to islam it will be destroyed one day before the day of judgement and it will be by black people.

did you also know that the last war (muslims v illuminati) will be fought without hi tech weaponary? a prophecy made over a thousands years ago and it will come true, a big solar storm and all the satellites will drop like flies..

the last group that tried to destroy the kabah (sultan abraha) failed surah fil:




just remember 'And (the unbelievers) plotted and planned, and Allah too planned, and the best of planners is Allah 3:54'

How do you know the prophecy matches up to the events? Present day time?

choosewisely
15-03-2010, 09:20 PM
I can't stand shiites. Absolute idiots.

major seven
15-03-2010, 09:41 PM
I can't stand shiites. Absolute idiots.



Do bang on as to WHY you think they are Absolute Idiots?

major seven
15-03-2010, 11:05 PM
http://lgo.mit.edu/blog/drewhill/files/nuclear-explosion.jpg





AW MAN!
Was that Jerusalem?
Well thats one way to end a zillion years old Mid East Crises.
Oh Well! Nothing else was working anyway including giving Yassar Arafuckingfat the Nobel Peace Prize.






http://super-resources.com/gallery/myPh3.photo/640--2008-12-nuclear%20explosion-explosion09.jpg






WOW!!!
Was that Washington DC?
Does that mean I don't have to file a tax return April 15th?
I reckon the Bam Man's job is open again.
Maybe we can finally get a Health Care Plan now.





http://www.newsgroper.com/files/legacy/nuclear-explosion.jpg





OH COOL!
They finally found Yosommy bin Numb Fucks hideout.






http://jackassoftheweek.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/nuclear-explosion.jpg





DAMN!
Was that Mecca?
Bummer! What are we going to do without Jerusalem and Mecca?
Anybody up for a cooler climate to set up a new place to fight over?
Something less than 118 deg. in the shade with lots of fresh water and
NO OIL!





http://www.gasstationnearme.com/images/Effects-Of-Nuclear-Explosion.jpg






WHOA MOMMA!!!
That was a big one!
Must of been Iran's nuclear project causing a chain reaction and igniting
a oil resourvoir.






http://kronemyer.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/nuclear-bomb-explosion.jpg




OH NO!
Not New York AGAIN!
Just when they finally started to build the new,
"Fuck You Wahabbi Extremist Mother Fuckers" tower.





http://ircamera.as.arizona.edu/NatSci102/NatSci102/images/mush.gif





AW!
Now that one looks like a Nuclear Mistake!
Must be North Korea fucking up again trying to play catch up with everybody else who has got blowing up shit down to a fine art.






http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v701/Artiki/Roboshrubish/nuke.jpg





NOW SEE WHAT YOU DID?
Ya'll went and got GOD Himself all Pissed Off and

scooby85
15-03-2010, 11:06 PM
How do you know the prophecy matches up to the events? Present day time?

because so far all the prophecies are coming true like clock work.. check out the minor and major signs before the day of judgement and youll see what i mean plus its islam, the truth of course its going to come true.

scooby85
15-03-2010, 11:10 PM
Do bang on as to WHY you think they are Absolute Idiots?

you sticking up for muslims? u ok m7??

picha
16-03-2010, 11:27 AM
what a sad sad man... still dodging my questions, yeh good one now fuck off

Whats the matter scoobs, are you not so sure now that Allah is going to come to the rescue?
Anyway scoobs think of it this way: if Allah deflects it then the infidel will have to admit Islam is the truth, and if he does't then Muslims will have to admit it isn't the truth. It's a win win situation. :)

picha
16-03-2010, 11:30 AM
http://lgo.mit.edu/blog/drewhill/files/nuclear-explosion.jpg





AW MAN!
Was that Jerusalem?
Well thats one way to end a zillion years old Mid East Crises.
Oh Well! Nothing else was working anyway including giving Yassar Arafuckingfat the Nobel Peace Prize.






http://super-resources.com/gallery/myPh3.photo/640--2008-12-nuclear%20explosion-explosion09.jpg






WOW!!!
Was that Washington DC?
Does that mean I don't have to file a tax return April 15th?
I reckon the Bam Man's job is open again.
Maybe we can finally get a Health Care Plan now.





http://www.newsgroper.com/files/legacy/nuclear-explosion.jpg





OH COOL!
They finally found Yosommy bin Numb Fucks hideout.






http://jackassoftheweek.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/nuclear-explosion.jpg





DAMN!
Was that Mecca?
Bummer! What are we going to do without Jerusalem and Mecca?
Anybody up for a cooler climate to set up a new place to fight over?
Something less than 118 deg. in the shade with lots of fresh water and
NO OIL!





http://www.gasstationnearme.com/images/Effects-Of-Nuclear-Explosion.jpg






WHOA MOMMA!!!
That was a big one!
Must of been Iran's nuclear project causing a chain reaction and igniting
a oil resourvoir.






http://kronemyer.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/nuclear-bomb-explosion.jpg




OH NO!
Not New York AGAIN!
Just when they finally started to build the new,
"Fuck You Wahabbi Extremist Mother Fuckers" tower.





http://ircamera.as.arizona.edu/NatSci102/NatSci102/images/mush.gif





AW!
Now that one looks like a Nuclear Mistake!
Must be North Korea fucking up again trying to play catch up with everybody else who has got blowing up shit down to a fine art.






http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v701/Artiki/Roboshrubish/nuke.jpg





NOW SEE WHAT YOU DID?
Ya'll went and got GOD Himself all Pissed Off and

They are quite intoxicating arent they? Theres a few more I think you missed on the previous page.

major seven
16-03-2010, 09:11 PM
you sticking up for muslims? u ok m7??


LOL! :D

Hey There Scooby!
Yeah! I'm Cool!
Was feeling a bit dizzy there for a second but I'm OK now. :)
Probably a side effect from staring at pictures of nuclear explosions.
Whoda thought they could be so spectacularly beautifull while so unbelievably frightening at the same time.
At least for the folks that are far far away anyway.

Some folks call my generation "The Baby Boomers".
I prefer to call it the "Duck and Cover" generation.
In grade school we even had "Duck and Cover" drills.
See a bright flash of light, QUICK! Look away and Get under your desk. LOL!!!
Yeah Right! That'll work real good. My tiny little school desk will save me from one of those things. LOL!

Yeah Man! The good old days when all we had to worry about was a nuclear attack from the godless heathen Russians.

If you get real bored, there is some pretty funny yet toatally stupid government propaganda films on The Tube of us idiot kids all trying to fit under a little bitty school desk.


Was hoping "Choosey" would respond back as to why Sheites are "absolute idiots"
The only Sheite guy I know is IVL and he knows more about Islam than Mohammud himself. :)
You, Adbasque and Law Man just claim to be plain old regular no frills Muslims.
Still wondering if that is even possible.
Not real sure about Bill, George and Larry, the WE Guys, on what their main trip is.
I was thinking they are kinda like Sufi type Yogis that hang around on top of a mountain and folks wander up there for wisdom and enlightenment.

Anyways!
You seem all rested up from vacationing in OZ and ready to do battle again with us Heathen Infidels. :)

As Always, In Truth, Peace, and Whatever else thats Cool,
I Remain,

Major Seven :)

eternal1stparty
17-03-2010, 12:36 AM
http://lgo.mit.edu/blog/drewhill/files/nuclear-explosion.jpg





AW MAN!
Was that Jerusalem?
Well thats one way to end a zillion years old Mid East Crises.
Oh Well! Nothing else was working anyway including giving Yassar Arafuckingfat the Nobel Peace Prize.






http://super-resources.com/gallery/myPh3.photo/640--2008-12-nuclear%20explosion-explosion09.jpg






WOW!!!
Was that Washington DC?
Does that mean I don't have to file a tax return April 15th?
I reckon the Bam Man's job is open again.
Maybe we can finally get a Health Care Plan now.





http://www.newsgroper.com/files/legacy/nuclear-explosion.jpg





OH COOL!
They finally found Yosommy bin Numb Fucks hideout.






http://jackassoftheweek.files.wordpress.com/2009/05/nuclear-explosion.jpg





DAMN!
Was that Mecca?
Bummer! What are we going to do without Jerusalem and Mecca?
Anybody up for a cooler climate to set up a new place to fight over?
Something less than 118 deg. in the shade with lots of fresh water and
NO OIL!





http://www.gasstationnearme.com/images/Effects-Of-Nuclear-Explosion.jpg






WHOA MOMMA!!!
That was a big one!
Must of been Iran's nuclear project causing a chain reaction and igniting
a oil resourvoir.






http://kronemyer.com/wp-content/uploads/2008/05/nuclear-bomb-explosion.jpg




OH NO!
Not New York AGAIN!
Just when they finally started to build the new,
"Fuck You Wahabbi Extremist Mother Fuckers" tower.





http://ircamera.as.arizona.edu/NatSci102/NatSci102/images/mush.gif





AW!
Now that one looks like a Nuclear Mistake!
Must be North Korea fucking up again trying to play catch up with everybody else who has got blowing up shit down to a fine art.






http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v701/Artiki/Roboshrubish/nuke.jpg





NOW SEE WHAT YOU DID?
Ya'll went and got GOD Himself all Pissed Off and


**fart** Arrogant fool.