Mr Pixies Posts on 9/11

[john white]

Of course this thread also shows there is no peice of ludicrous debunked disproved NPT evidence that Pixie wont keep trotting out ad-nauseum like a good little soldier without giving a damn about any kind of reality intruding on his delusion

And thats why the 9/11 section on this site continutes to be (largely) a tragedy of disinformation, and this impoverised thread is yet another example

[gribz]

I wrote a sensible reply to this but the lost it in a misfortune of key pressing, so I'll just say "fuck it" and laugh instead



Yip Im sure you did

[john white]

Yip Im sure you did

Indeed. I did. I wrote out the sensible answer post but then, yeah, what is the point of being sensible? Sensible is dull and conformist, right? Lets paint our bottoms blue and run around the forum having powerful reactions to our own imaginations instead. Woop Woop!!!

[sidlittle]

How tiresome is White ? ! ... and still you persist White...incredibly defensive and abusive , either due to a complete lack of confidence in your own idiotic theories that continue to dwindle in popularity or due to some other reason that just can't be fathomed.

Maybe it is indeed just denial, good old fashioned pride. Some people need to be told.
John!! The milkman is shagging your missus!!

..and now I'll allow you to return to your papier-maché wand making.

[krakhead]

Very interesting, particularly enjoyed his use if the phrase - 'in my current belief system' - makes me take it that bit more seriously. Thanks for sharing!

[john white]

Meanwhile, back in what we generally can call "reality", theres no problem with these photos: or indeed ANY visual evidence relating to the Planes that hit the towers back on September 11th 2001

Thats becuase it happened

You see Sid I really dont care a single iota what you think of me or what you call me, becuase I simply dont owe you, or any other NPT disinformation victim, special treatment or pandering: in the long term it would be more harmful to your interests if I did

Nice on you to wander over to this thread and say hi though, appreciated

[mr_pixie]

It looks like they have changed the tire and landing gear at lest once, (But I could be wrong) and have scrubed and hosed down the whole area clean to get rid of the dust, and then they have tryed to moved the tire and Landing gear back in, but forgot were to place the "Evidence" :D www.nomoregames.net

The cleaning of the streets around Ground Zero tyes in with what Dr Judy wood has on here website. www.drjudywood.com

The cleaning of the streets, I think maybe it was to try to keep the contamination levels down.

[bones]

none of you mentioned this!!!

the wheel and tyer fell 90 odd floors and theres no pavement damage?

im a civil engineer and i know about concrete , its not that tough!!!

also the scaffold is shiny in one pic and not the other, must have had nyc cleaners out making sure they get good shots in. :eek:

[cheeb]

[QUOTE=mr_pixie;354668]Please look closely at these photo's and see if you can see anything strange.

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh108/Lizardhunter/tire3.jpg

The Wheel Is Positioned In The Place Of The Fasces Axe!!!

http://img367.imageshack.us/img367/584/fasceshp4.jpg

:eek:

[number 6]

the wheel and tyer fell 90 odd floors and theres no pavement damage?

Hhmmmm... perhpas it landed in the middle of the street, blocking the route for emergency services, so it was picked up and moved to the pavement.
I know, I know.... I'm letting my common sense take over! Something I shouldn't do when looking at the no planes theory.

[number 6]

The cleaning of the streets around Ground Zero tyes in with what Dr Judy wood has on here website. www.drjudywood.com

Are you taking a percentage of the advertising revenue from this site?
Every time you post you have to plug the her website.

Have you ever considered that you are wrong? That you are the victim of disinformation. Or do you promote this just to be different from the norm, no matter how ludicrous it is? Perhaps you are just here to undermine the truth movement. Please explain mr_pixie.

[mr_pixie]

Are you taking a percentage of the advertising revenue from this site?
Every time you post you have to plug the her website.

Have you ever considered that you are wrong? That you are the victim of disinformation. Or do you promote this just to be different from the norm, no matter how ludicrous it is? Perhaps you are just here to undermine the truth movement. Please explain mr_pixie.

It's starting to get silly now, just look at the visual evidence for once people and say what you see, you need to look closely at these pictures and the video footage of the planes. listen I'm an not here as an agent or troll etc, just want to know whats going on here After all it is a conspiracy? And yes I think I might be wrong all the time, and know I dont get any money for promoting Judy's site, I havent even got PC + I'm on job seekers.

Wake up people maybe we have all been a victim of diinformation. :mad:

[number 6]

you need to look closely at these pictures and the video footage of the planes.

Do you mean the crappy, grainy mpeg clips that have lost their quality and flow due to compression and the difference in frame rates?

Do you not agree the wheel could've been picked up and moved?

[mr_pixie]

Do you not agree the wheel could've been picked up and moved?[/

It was moved, this doent mean it came out of a fire ball and through a steel builing came out the other side and landed under some scafolding without make a hole in the ground, and thening about to change it's own tire and move of it's own acorred.

But then Truth is stranger than fiction, so you nether know. :D

[masonfree party]

John..what will you do when no planes becomes established fact...change your name,shave off your beard and runaway to a newage brainwashed commune?

[john white]

John..what will you do when no planes becomes established fact...change your name,shave off your beard and runaway to a newage brainwashed commune?

i'll never have to mate, becuase that is never going to happen

It really dont matter how much you believe it or how much you spam the internet with claims about it: its never going to happen

It never even crosses my mind that it might happen: thats how distant and remote that possibility is

Far more likely (and still very unlikely to happen, but far more likely) is the exposure of the frauds behind NPT as deliberate pushers of lies and disinformation

What will you do that day? Now that is a question that I suppose I find of some limited interest

Because I can certainly see you having some kind of serious collapse if the truth of how you have been used and abused ever becomes clear to your consciousness: if you ever realised you have been drawn into a trap deliberatley designed for your kind of psychology to make you an accessory to drawing others astray and helping the real murderers get away with it. How are you going to feel about that?

Now I've just told you some REAL truth: how does that feel? What are you going to do about it? Blame me and hate me for being strong enough to tell you the truth that your running from yourself? Or can you do better than that?

I'm right: your wrong: Planes hit the towers: and they wernt taken down by any beam weapon or con artists "hutchinson efffect"

Don't matter how many threads you spam or how much of an ignorant tool you make of yourself, those facts arnt changing

When are you going to learn from the many many people who have told you that and told you why the "evidence" you throw around the net falls apart time and time again? When will you allow yourself to come to understand that far from being "awake", you've been wasting your life making sure you stay asleep?

[number 6]

i'll never have to mate, becuase that is never going to happen

It really dont matter how much you believe it or how much you spam the internet with claims about it: its never going to happen

It never even crosses my mind that it might happen: thats how distant and remote that possibility is

Far more likely (and still very unlikely to happen, but far more likely) is the exposure of the frauds behind NPT as deliberate pushers of lies and disinformation

What will you do that day? Now that is a question that I suppose I find of some limited interest

Because I can certainly see you having some kind of serious collapse if the truth of how you have been used and abused ever becomes clear to your consciousness: if you ever realised you have been drawn into a trap deliberatley designed for your kind of psychology to make you an accessory to drawing others astray and helping the real murderers get away with it. How are you going to feel about that?

Now I've just told you some REAL truth: how does that feel? What are you going to do about it? Blame me and hate me for being strong enough to tell you the truth that your running from yourself? Or can you do better than that?

I'm right: your wrong: Planes hit the towers: and they wernt taken down by any beam weapon or con artists "hutchinson efffect"

Don't matter how many threads you spam or how much of an ignorant tool you make of yourself, those facts arnt changing

When are you going to learn from the many many people who have told you that and told you why the "evidence" you throw around the net falls apart time and time again? When will you allow yourself to come to understand that far from being "awake", you've been wasting your life making sure you stay asleep?


You tell him mate! Classic! :D

[number 6]

It was moved, this doent mean it came out of a fire ball and through a steel builing came out the other side and landed under some scafolding without make a hole in the ground, and thening about to change it's own tire and move of it's own acorred.

But then Truth is stranger than fiction, so you nether know. :D

What?

[weston white]

Those images could have been taken as before and after the impact, which is why everything appears so clean in the one and why the police tape is up and around the tire and then it is broken in the image with the dust everywhere. After all it seems very strange to have the police tape broken in the image with the dust, yet as new in the clean image, right? Not to mention that the area is just a way to clean and that nothing is wet either, no puddles, etc. (the police tape even looks brand new, though is fashioned in the same manner as the dirty image).

About the plane though, I feel they could have planted these as "proof" even though planes were actually used within the WTC1 and WTC2, because they knew that they were not going to be able to recover anything from the buildings once they collapsed. I do not feel that just because they pre-planted evidence, means that they used holograms or overlay graphics. Thought I am thinking the possibility mentioned before by I think it was gribz, that an actual plane was used in the initial impact and then explosives or some form thereof was used to cause the 2nd exposition and then covered up with overlay graphics, which would also explain the many discrepancies in released footage.

That actually does make much sense to me. After all why risk crashing two planes when one will do (the footage of the first impact has witnesses reacting to the passing of a plane prior to the crash, this would be very hard to pull off if it was faked). We know that they faked the planes at Shanksville and the Pentagon, so maybe the faked one of the two planes at the WTC, we know that the first plane crashed by all means was an actual plane by the reaction of the witnesses in the videos, we know that the news media had their hands on some key footage immediately after this occurred. All they truly needed was that initial impact, after that they knew peoples imaginations would run wild and would accept anything else as truth, their minds had been wired and ready to believe their “story”. I know mine was.

Perhaps there is some truth the NPT after all, though were that theory still breaks down is as to the cause of the collapse of the buildings.

[dave52]

It is likely that the images show the difference between "before collapse" and "after collapse", hence all the dust.

But, this is all pretty academic. I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how a plane wheel can pass entirely through the WTC in the first place.

http://www.nysm.nysed.gov/wtc/wtcimages/airplanedebrislg.gif

[weston white]

Is there somebody that can do the math on this to see if it is even possible? i.e. x-feet above ground, y-speed, z-weight = total possible distance -/+ wind drag/air resistance.

It would of course help to have the exact figures ready for somebody that knows the formula as well.

[hagbard_celine]

By all means believe otherwise (and I know Pixie will) but this is why No Planers are taken as a farcical bunch of numpty morons both in the larger (far larger) 9/11 Truth community and amongst every other human being with a reasonable ability to think and the misfortune to come across these foolish claims

Does it really matter that much, John? Planes or no planes? I haven't made up my mind yet, but which ever side I eventually choose, if I ever do, the fact remains: 9/11 was an inside job. We all agree on that.

I'm concerned that what will really make us look like "numpty morons" is if we're seen to be quarrelling over details.

[mr_pixie]

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh108/Lizardhunter/WTC5Fuselagepiece.jpg

[raffles]

Does it really matter that much, John? Planes or no planes? I haven't made up my mind yet, but which ever side I eventually choose, if I ever do, the fact remains: 9/11 was an inside job. We all agree on that.

Thats exactly how i feel on the subject, well said.

It was an inside job, first and foremost.

[john white]

Does it really matter that much, John? Planes or no planes? I haven't made up my mind yet, but which ever side I eventually choose, if I ever do, the fact remains: 9/11 was an inside job. We all agree on that.

I'm concerned that what will really make us look like "numpty morons" is if we're seen to be quarrelling over details.

Within the 9/11 Truth movement it matters a great deal, becuase the effect of these disinfomration campaigns is truly cancerous and those pushing it who know its a fruad are criminals and possibly even accesories to supporting war crimes. I dont think that's likely about Pixie MFP or Dave 52... mostly they are just gullable

Outside the 9/11 Truth movment it matters not-at-all, even slightly, except of course that a cancerous and divided 9/11 Truth movement cant get 9/11 Truth out at all, and the whole deal will collapse into the kind of relevance of "who shot JFK": I:E it will tie people up for decades to come but acheive no meaningful change whatsoever

Mission Accomplished by the bad guys in the info war

Really does it matter? Does it not? Let the whole thing go? There are more than enough real issues: extremely real issues!

After all we have had the awesome information of the Jersey Girls, but its not hoopy, cool or exciting enouh to simply establish clear prior knowledge, the stand-down of Nato, and letting Bin Laden escape from Tora Bora. We've had the opportunity to take 9/11 Truth forward onto the front of the political stage with this level of info: how many activists have really bothered themselves to do so? Not very many

But I suppose for those of us who still believe 9/11 Truth has the potential to really make that big shift in the mass consciousness, yes disinformation probably does matter, quite a bit

On a personal level "maybe" is fine and works rather well... but in the context of the bigger 9/11 Truth level, the pushers wont let it alone at "maybe", and thats why there are a few people who try and care enough to do something about it, although with a lot of the mentalities one is dealing with whilst attempting that, well lets just say its never going to make a difference, they are too far gone: lost in conspiracyville

Its all rather sad and pathetic TBH: thats how I feel about it

We do it to ourselves

A few years down the line we could be saying "if only we could have changed things when we had a chance in the years following 9/11 but we fucked it up and didnt manage it and now we are suffering as never before"

Sure the odds have always been stacked against us, but YES, No Planes and Beam Weapons will have a significant level of culpability on that day if we come to that pass, and the fruadsters behind it know that

[john white]

I'm still waiting for someone to explain to me how a plane wheel can pass entirely through the WTC in the first place

A surface area mostly of glass and an internal area mostly of air and you can't work that out?

Why not just let go of the ridiculous thoery and do some proper campaigning that might actually matter instead?

[mr_pixie]

White wroteWhy not just let go of the ridiculous thoery and do some proper campaigning that might actually matter instead?

yeah, just believe what your told, dont try and work things out for yourself. There are plenty of experts out there, dont question it, just lap up the Steven E Jones/Ray Griffin stuff (ie real Planes, Molten Metal etc...) like a little puppy. :p
Whites right, it's a ridiculous thoery just like the shape shifting lizards/Reptilian Agenda or the New World Order microchipping etc...

So we know all we need to know here so lets just trust them.

[dave52]

A surface area mostly of glass and an internal area mostly of air and you can't work that out?

Tell me John, do you believe that they used controlled demolition? It's just that, now I've thought about it, what with the whole structure being mainly glass and air. Why didn't they get some Muslims on a tallish building near by, and get them all to blow really hard in the general direction of the towers.

I reckon, using your acurate model of glass and air, the twin towers would've probably just fallen over. :rolleyes:

[dave52]

Does it really matter that much.

No it doesn't, in the big scheme of things. I think it's important that we try and linch the right people should the opportunity present itself, but no, it doesn't matter.

I want justice for 9/11, 7/7, 3/11, Bali, Iraq etc more than anything. That is the big picture. And John - just for the record, I've written my MP numerous occasions to bring up issues with 7/7 - so yes - I'm actively doing things.

But look around you folks. We are on David Icke's website. Here is a place where we can discuss alternative (and often times, way out there) theories. 99% of the populace would take one look at this site and probably think us mad. So I think it's perfectly legitimate to discuss NPT and DEW in this setting.

[john white]

So I think it's perfectly legitimate to discuss NPT and DEW in this setting.


Except its never discussed: simply cheerleaded

All pertinant questions ignored!

Like: "Hey gang if there is just one genuine image out of the thousands we have the whole theory falls apart doesnt it?"

"Judy Wood is my Hero!!!!! You retarded shill!"

Its hardly a debate is it?

Its a nice try at justifying yourself (well done for the letter) but steaming pile of shit is still a steaming pile of shit and you know what Icke says about that:


"Its a pile of shit: Walk Away!"


Now thats appropriate for this setting!

[dave52]

Actually, if you look at the debates we've had, the break down of communication can be blamed on members on all sides. I think we've had some excellent discusions over the past few months.

Personally I think Judy Wood is dreadful. I'm not questioning the validity of her research, it's her delivery. Unfortunately we live in a media driven world, and image has become as important as the message. That is why Loose Change has become so popular, it is perfect for the MTV generation. Zeitgeist also appeals to this demographic. I believe Simon Shack has also caught on to this and has aimed September Clues at the same audience.

The NPT debate will rage on for a while yet. But the goals of the truth movement must be unified. Truth, Justice and the destruction of the New World Order.

[mr_pixie]

I'm just wondering how many people have actaly seen these photos?

This soil was truck in over night to stop the fuming and to soak up the contamination. Then they bring in new soil water it down, then take it away and bring in fresh stuff, so they have been doing this since the first day of 9/11, they use landfill, fresh potting soil and loads of top soil, and mixed it together with what little debrie there was to bulk it up and at the same time stopping the fuming.

More info @ www.drjudywood.com


http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh108/Lizardhunter/3885.jpg


http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh108/Lizardhunter/5320.jpg


http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh108/Lizardhunter/5313_s.jpg

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh108/Lizardhunter/011028_5508cbh1.jpg

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh108/Lizardhunter/011028_5509cl.jpg

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh108/Lizardhunter/3926.jpg

[mr_pixie]

People on this forum will have no problem seeing this as planted evidence, so why not in New York?

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh108/Lizardhunter/911-flight77-debris.jpg

[mr_pixie]

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh108/Lizardhunter/5328.jpg


Notice the soil inside the cab of the fire truck.
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh108/Lizardhunter/5321.jpg


Mounding the soil up.
http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh108/Lizardhunter/011005_5707bcs.jpg

[weston white]

That seems really strange, although dirt and sand it the best way to put out I think it magnesium based and explosive based fires, as water just evaporates and is not very effective in such cases and could even cause the super heated metal to explode into shrapnel injuring first responders.

[masonfree party]

why Doesn't Someone Who Lives In New York Or Nearby Follow These Dirt Trucks And Try And Get Samples...anyone Up For It?

[weston white]

Well for starters that was about 7 years ago.

[masonfree party]

Well for starters that was about 7 years ago.

no its still happening...dr judy wood and andrew johnson visited ground zero in january this year..they are still bringing in dirt and hosing down everywhere

[weston white]

Really, I thought they had already begun building the new WTC?

[masonfree party]

Really, I thought they had already begun building the new WTC?


no..everytime they erect the steel beams they get infected and rust quickly..this needs to be investigated

[esse]

Great pics, thanks for posting - hard to believe people still think that what the propaganda media presented is what happened - look at that rubble, no fire would leave so little and everything in tiny pieces - it only takes common sense and about a grade 10 science education to see for yourself that this whole scenario is veeery wrong - but you guys know this.

[masonfree party]

Great pics, thanks for posting - hard to believe people still think that what the propaganda media presented is what happened - look at that rubble, no fire would leave so little and everything in tiny pieces - it only takes common sense and about a grade 10 science education to see for yourself that this whole scenario is veeery wrong - but you guys know this.

esse..try telling that to dondaz,john white and co..they still don't get it and these guys are moderators...strange eh?

[esse]

Very...

[mr_pixie]

no its still happening...dr judy wood and andrew johnson visited ground zero in january this year..they are still bringing in dirt and hosing down everywhere

Here's the link.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=edm9pcKGkgU

[number 6]

esse..try telling that to dondaz,john white and co..they still don't get it and these guys are moderators...strange eh?

You can't submit a post without attacking those that disagree with you, can you?

As far as I can see, Dondaz, John White and co do not disagree that the official story is a pile of wank, they just think, as do I, that the NPT is without merit. Stop provoking an argument and get that chip off your shoulder. You're not a victim so stop acting like one.


Regarding the original post, they covered the untouched grass at the pentagon crash scene with soil immediately after the alleged plane (missile or drone) crashed into it. Hhhhmmmm.

[hagbard_celine]

There are several shots like that.

A forum member has recently made me aware of the September Clues film. I'm starting to see this a bit like the moon landings, with all the anomalous photoes and TV footage. There are several shots where the plane appears to morph or appear not to have a plane shape at all.

(There may be another thread for this, but the bit where the bridge moves across the screen is very weird! Is there any explanation for that?)

[marpat]

i didn't think missiles had wings:rolleyes:


Missile often have wings. Get a pic of a tomahawk cruise missile. They need something to help them change direction. Some have small rockets for this but when they run out of fuel they can change direction. Large ICMB's do not have wings as they are like space rocktets

[marpat]

There are several shots like that.

A forum member has recently made me aware of the September Clues film. I'm starting to see this a bit like the moon landings, with all the anomalous photoes and TV footage. There are several shots where the plane appears to morph or appear not to have a plane shape at all.

(There may be another thread for this, but the bit where the bridge moves across the screen is very weird! Is there any explanation for that?)


If there are a lot of variations of footage then do you think this may indicate that people with graphics suites are tampering with the footage to turn opinions to what they would like?

In that vid are both shots of the same tower? what if they were looking at the towers from opposite directions. It could be that one nose came through and the other didn't. I think this would need to be ascertaind as they are not taking with the same video camera.

[masonfree party]

Missile often have wings. Get a pic of a tomahawk cruise missile. They need something to help them change direction. Some have small rockets for this but when they run out of fuel they can change direction. Large ICMB's do not have wings as they are like space rocktets

yes but not wings that can create massive cartoon cut outs in buildings like roadrunner had just passed through...Newtons third law says its impossible for aluminium wings to pass through steel beams...end of story...case closed

[hagbard_celine]

Missile often have wings. Get a pic of a tomahawk cruise missile. They need something to help them change direction. Some have small rockets for this but when they run out of fuel they can change direction. Large ICMB's do not have wings as they are like space rocktets


The TLAM's wings though are very diminutive compared to an airliner's. They're not much bigger, in proportion, than the tail fins on an aircraft. I'm only just starting to look into this, but I'm very suspicious about some of the TV news footage. The wings of a plane should be prominently visible from the angle of filming it from the ground.

Was somebody in the editing suite trying to blow the whistle I wonder.:confused: This is what some people say about the fake moon landing pics.

[marpat]

yes but not wings that can create massive cartoon cut outs in buildings like roadrunner had just passed through...Newtons third law says its impossible for aluminium wings to pass through steel beams...end of story...case closed


Eeeerrr. I was responding to the post that said missile do not have wings so what are you going on about. Nobody was talking of size!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think that aircraft wings are not made entirely of aluminium. The skin may well be but not the actual inner beams, which will be some alloy or reinforced compound. They have to be very strong to bear the weight of the engines and the fuel while on the ground. Plus on top of that you have the forward motion of the aircraft. And where exactly are the supporting beams in the building? I thought the main ones where in the centre. I am definitely not an expert in this area but I would guess you are far from it too.

[masonfree party]

Eeeerrr. I was responding to the post that said missile do not have wings so what are you going on about. Nobody was talking of size!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think that aircraft wings are not made entirely of aluminium. The skin may well be but not the actual inner beams, which will be some alloy or reinforced compound. They have to be very strong to bear the weight of the engines and the fuel while on the ground. Plus on top of that you have the forward motion of the aircraft. And where exactly are the supporting beams in the building? I thought the main ones where in the centre. I am definitely not an expert in this area but I would guess you are far from it too.


there were steel columns all around the perimeter of the building..no way could a flimsey aluminium wing pass through that lot
http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://911review.org/Wget/www.nerdcities.com/guardian/wtc/wtc-beams.jpg&imgrefurl=http://911review.org/Wget/www.nerdcities.com/guardian/wtc/wtc-demolition.htm&h=734&w=600&sz=39&hl=en&start=35&um=1&tbnid=ujc5r2pc6MUAAM:&tbnh=141&tbnw=115&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dsteel%2Bbeams%2Btwin%2Btowers%26start %3D20%26ndsp%3D20%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN

[marpat]

there were steel columns all around the perimeter of the building..no way could a flimsey aluminium wing pass through that lot
http://images.google.co.uk/imgres?imgurl=http://911review.org/Wget/www.nerdcities.com/guardian/wtc/wtc-beams.jpg&imgrefurl=http://911review.org/Wget/www.nerdcities.com/guardian/wtc/wtc-demolition.htm&h=734&w=600&sz=39&hl=en&start=35&um=1&tbnid=ujc5r2pc6MUAAM:&tbnh=141&tbnw=115&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dsteel%2Bbeams%2Btwin%2Btowers%26start %3D20%26ndsp%3D20%26um%3D1%26hl%3Den%26sa%3DN


Did your IQ drop. I just said that the wing structure will not be entirely aluminium. Perhaps you should get a job in air crash investigations seeing that you are such an expert. Are those colums actually steel and did they go all the way up or did they use a softer more flexible supporting material further up?

Lets us get one thing straight as well. I am not agaisnt that idea that it was a conspiracy, I am just doubtful of some of the things regarding the video.

[madthumbs]

What a waste of time watching this not only worthless video, but counter productive. The only thing it shows is that many 9/11 truthers are idiots led by idiots.

[bipolar bear]

yes but not wings that can create massive cartoon cut outs in buildings like roadrunner had just passed through...Newtons third law says its impossible for aluminium wings to pass through steel beams...end of story...case closed

Please show you're calculations.

[bipolar bear]

There are several shots like that.

A forum member has recently made me aware of the September Clues film. I'm starting to see this a bit like the moon landings, with all the anomalous photoes and TV footage. There are several shots where the plane appears to morph or appear not to have a plane shape at all.

(There may be another thread for this, but the bit where the bridge moves across the screen is very weird! Is there any explanation for that?)

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=823734902101057550

[graflok]

Does the dispute about planes/no-planes include the Pentagon event?

I mean, does it piss anyone off to suggest that no plane hit the Pentagon? Or,
is that still part of the dispute?

[dave52]

SC Busted - Discussed at length here:

http://forum.911movement.org/index.php?showtopic=1913

Admitedly an NPT biased forum, but it prooves the point that you can look at things in many different ways.

[dave52]

Does the dispute about planes/no-planes include the Pentagon event?

This is an interesting point. A lot of people who get really irrate about no-planes are quite happy to entertain the idea that there was no plane at the Pentagon. Presumably, if there was a whole bunch of footage (faked or otherwise) of a plane ploughing ito the Pentagon - this wouldn't be discussed.

The power of the tube eh?

It makes no sense to me unless I see it on tv - so launch that satellite and get it right...

[dave52]

As SC Busted has been round before (probably three or four times) I will repost my response from the last time... :D

Teresa Renault (sp?) is in a building 2.5 miles away, he neglects to mention that the building is TV Company Building. He neglects to mention that, if you listen to Teresa's audio, she is obviously being prompted.

"er.. wh... right now... er... that was definately on purpose"

Different angles show different plane trajectories.

"Oh my god" woman is on more than one clip (from different angles and positions).

Does he not question how shape charges were planted without people's knowledge..? But his other movie about an orange is all about the controlled demolition of WTC7.

Is that not a contradiction? Wouldn't people have noticed WTC7 being rigged with explosives? And if not controlled demolition - what brought down WTCs 1 and 2? A natural collapse? Directed Energy Weapons?

Plane shaped dust...?

He takes the stance that the Naudets couldn't have been in on the op. This is niave at best (frames missing from second strike not mentioned).

He talks about how the footage got to the news studios by 6 o'clock, and shows a wide horizontal shot whilst discussing this. He neglects to mention that that shot was origionally aired as stills. Then became video a few hours later. I'm yet to hear a satisfactory explanation of that one.

All of this can be argued one way or another. Holding up SC Busted and shouting "case closed" is as incorrect as holding up SC and doing the same.

Hands up who thinks there was a plane at the Pentagon...

[graflok]

OK, so ...

no-plane-at-the-Pentagon = "You're cool."

but

no-plane-at-the-WTC" = "You're a disinfo agent."

Gee, I wonder why they used a completely different strategy at one site than
at another?

Just trying to get this stuff straight so I don't get thrown out at the next party. :cool:

[weston white]

Does the dispute about planes/no-planes include the Pentagon event?

I mean, does it piss anyone off to suggest that no plane hit the Pentagon? Or,
is that still part of the dispute?

Only if you are apart of the Alex Jones crew. rofl ;)

[mr_self_destruct]

This is an interesting point. A lot of people who get really irrate about no-planes are quite happy to entertain the idea that there was no plane at the Pentagon. Presumably, if there was a whole bunch of footage (faked or otherwise) of a plane ploughing ito the Pentagon - this wouldn't be discussed.

The power of the tube eh?

Why would they not just have faked footage from all 3 impacts right from the start? Hell, they could even have included a Shanksville shot.

[john white]

Does the dispute about planes/no-planes include the Pentagon event?

I mean, does it piss anyone off to suggest that no plane hit the Pentagon? Or,
is that still part of the dispute?

I'd say it was

But not becuase I streneously stick to "there were four planes" no matter what

I'd say it was becuase if we are too quick to be certain of anything (or everything) then we risk being manipualted right into a trap: as those who concretely believe no planes hit the towers HAVE been

How it actually is:

Evidence of Plane at Shankville: Very Weak

Evidence of Plane at Pentagon: Weak

Evidence of Planes at Towers: Overwhelmingly strong

But can No Planes at Pentagon or Shanskville be PROVEN?

NO: if for no other reason than the evidence actually available, though weak, is also small, and it is always possible that new evidence could be released by the PTB overwhelmingly proving planes at both those locations. We should theroefre say it is unlikely there were planes at pentagon and shanksville: NOt that there were none

Disinformation works on playing people off against polarities

The official story is obviously 4 planes at 3 locations

So when people question that story they are VERY succeptable to having the belief imposed on them that becuase ONE part of the story is very weak, all parts must be false: then they go off and invent (or soak up) all sorts of bollocks to defend their new reality bubble and can be induced to do so utterly irrationally becuase they feel that if they accept any of the official story they are "selling out2 in some way

They then become paranoid conspiracy theory victims: LIKE MFP

Im not saying that to be cruel: but it IS the truth

The most likely explanation is that the strongest evidence points most strongly to the truth:

And personally I consider the highest balance of probability to be that 9/11 was PART real and PART fake:

By doing that the control of the issue is guarenteed in place because the polarities will play off against each other indefinately even though they are BOTH victims of misinformation and disinformation and BOTH wrong

Meanwhile the criminals sit out their time in office and move on, new heads take their places atop the hydra, they get away scotch free, and 9/11 becomes just another meaningless conspriacy theory hobby, not a vehicle for radical social change

At least: thats what the architecs of 9/11 WANT: they have only been part succesful in getting us to perform for them but as time goes on the issue loses traction and they do gain ground

And I admit it IS a challenge not to get frustrated with the victims of disinformation for being utterly unwitting pawns in providing the cover up: its sick, its horrible, I hate it: but its not MFP or Pixies or Dave52 or Sidlittles fault they have been played: they simply dont have the experiaqnce to clearly see whats happening and genuinely think they are doing the right thing. Thats psyops for you. Its far easier to manipulate peoples sense of right than make people do wrong

But it certainly IS the fault of creatures like Wood or Fetzer who are knowing agents in this. Johnson I dont know about, I consider it possible he is merely an attention seeker, he doesnt seem that astute to me. Shayler who knows where his head is at? I think it most likely he is a victim too

Now if anyone does agree with the above:

Do say so

[john white]

He takes the stance that the Naudets couldn't have been in on the op. This is niave at best (frames missing from second strike not mentioned).


I'll tell you what is naive: denying the reality of the existing frames on account of what is imagined in supposed "missing ones"

"Dave, its planes Dave: Planes!"

"Oh but they dont count becuase they arnt in what I believe isnt there"

How does that work again?

Why make fake footage of fake planes with missing frames? Why? Why? Why?

OR

Just a possibility:

The actual microsecond of imapct and the resulting pressure wave fucked with the camera and a part second AT MOST of poor quality frames were edited for the benefit of the film as a whole (24 frames per second remember). Thats what directors do with their footage: all the time everyday all across the planet countless hundreds of thousands of times

BUT: of course if one is so keen to believe that what IS there is not, then the routine must be conspiracy

And that, of course, is assuming there is any missing frames at all: its a claim (carefully selected and looked for) that cannot in fact be either proven OR not proven: like Andrew Johnsons "delayed fireball" bollocks that he can never say what we should have expected to see and therefore can never prove a delay: but he can claim it and conspiracy noobs, or people far too reliant on him to define their reality for them, can then believe it: even though its a nothing claim with nonsense evidence and not a sliver of proof

Again: thats how disinformation works: in steering the unproven, not the proven

Dave do you have ANY POV on NPT at all that actually stand up?

You do see why they dont, dont you Dave?

Dont you?

Dave?

[boots]

I'd say it was



Disinformation works on playing people off against polarities


And personally I consider the highest balance of probability to be that 9/11 was PART real and PART fake:

By doing that the control of the issue is guarenteed in place because the polarities will play off against each other indefinately even though they are BOTH victims of misinformation and disinformation and BOTH wrong

Meanwhile the criminals sit out their time in office and move on, new heads take their places atop the hydra, they get away scotch free, and 9/11 becomes just another meaningless conspriacy theory hobby, not a vehicle for radical social change

At least: thats what the architecs of 9/11 WANT: they have only been part succesful in getting us to perform for them but as time goes on the issue loses traction and they do gain ground

And I admit it IS a challenge not to get frustrated with the victims of disinformation for being utterly unwitting pawns in providing the cover up: its sick, its horrible, I hate it: but its not MFP or Pixies or Dave52 or Sidlittles fault they have been played: they simply dont have the experiaqnce to clearly see whats happening and genuinely think they are doing the right thing. Thats psyops for you. Its far easier to manipulate peoples sense of right than make people do wrong



Now if anyone does agree with the above:

Do say so

People could have there theories after the 911 phy-ops was exposed the the whole world could debate it and that would be great.

There are glaring truths out there so why don't we stick to that until it is exposed to the MSM, in another thread where Alex Jones is bringing it to the masses people are posting there that he's CIA and his this and that,God it's hopeless, You would think they wait and reserve judgment.

Oh well thats humans for you.

[mynameis]

yes but not wings that can create massive cartoon cut outs in buildings like roadrunner had just passed through...Newtons third law says its impossible for aluminium wings to pass through steel beams...end of story...case closed

Then explain why straw can pierce concrete through tornadoes.

[boots]

Then explain why straw can pierce concrete through tornadoes.

Good point.

And why a object the size of a finger nail can smash up a satellite in space.

[john white]

People could have there theories after the 911 phy-ops was exposed the the whole world could debate it and that would be great.

There are glaring truths out there so why don't we stick to that until it is exposed to the MSM, in another thread where Alex Jones is bringing it to the masses people are posting there that he's CIA and his this and that,God it's hopeless, You would think they wait and reserve judgment.

Oh well thats humans for you.

Well kind of yes that is humans for you... but its also missing the point in that psy-ops are based on knowing whats in our best interest and making sure we DONT do it... becuase absolutely you are right we have so much truth to stick to

But you see, that fact wont EVER make an MFP or a Pixie stop and think and look at themselves: they have bought in too deep and they CAN'T

How many people push NPT on the Net in the UK?

5? 6 at the most?

I mean really push, like "its the utter truth and your a retard if you dont agree"

How many post in support of the creidble evidence in the UK alone?

100's: probably 1000's

But all the ptb needs are that handful of believers to keep making a noise, to keep pushing their disinformation channels and keep pushing to contain the "9/11 probelm" until its FAR too late to threaten them anymore

And we may already be past that point, truth be told

God it would be wonderful if just one of their victims could WAKE THE FUCK UP

It would matter

It WOULD make a difference

BUT of course they would have to get over their fear of being vilified by their former comrades... and if they were able to conquer thier fears they would be unlikely to have be conned in the first place... they'd be amongst the thousands, not the few

[boots]

Yes, you see people don't trust there gut instincts first and for most and go into over the top conspiracy mode it's like an adrenalin rush and this is where these posters are gullible to phys-ops and then the egos wont let them see the plain truth and logic.

I have a friend who's the same and it's like talking to a brick wall. I'd like to say to her, "Why don't we sit down and have a nice cup of shut the fuck up".

As my mother you to say "Oh what a tangle web we weave when we first practice to deceive".

Do you see posters, GIVE IT UP.

[ladyzania]

I'd say it was

But not becuase I streneously stick to "there were four planes" no matter what

I'd say it was becuase if we are too quick to be certain of anything (or everything) then we risk being manipualted right into a trap: as those who concretely believe no planes hit the towers HAVE been

How it actually is:

Evidence of Plane at Shankville: Very Weak

Evidence of Plane at Pentagon: Weak

Evidence of Planes at Towers: Overwhelmingly strong

But can No Planes at Pentagon or Shanskville be PROVEN?

NO: if for no other reason than the evidence actually available, though weak, is also small, and it is always possible that new evidence could be released by the PTB overwhelmingly proving planes at both those locations. We should theroefre say it is unlikely there were planes at pentagon and shanksville: NOt that there were none

Disinformation works on playing people off against polarities

The official story is obviously 4 planes at 3 locations

So when people question that story they are VERY succeptable to having the belief imposed on them that becuase ONE part of the story is very weak, all parts must be false: then they go off and invent (or soak up) all sorts of bollocks to defend their new reality bubble and can be induced to do so utterly irrationally becuase they feel that if they accept any of the official story they are "selling out2 in some way

They then become paranoid conspiracy theory victims: LIKE MFP

Im not saying that to be cruel: but it IS the truth

The most likely explanation is that the strongest evidence points most strongly to the truth:

And personally I consider the highest balance of probability to be that 9/11 was PART real and PART fake:

By doing that the control of the issue is guarenteed in place because the polarities will play off against each other indefinately even though they are BOTH victims of misinformation and disinformation and BOTH wrong

Meanwhile the criminals sit out their time in office and move on, new heads take their places atop the hydra, they get away scotch free, and 9/11 becomes just another meaningless conspriacy theory hobby, not a vehicle for radical social change

At least: thats what the architecs of 9/11 WANT: they have only been part succesful in getting us to perform for them but as time goes on the issue loses traction and they do gain ground

And I admit it IS a challenge not to get frustrated with the victims of disinformation for being utterly unwitting pawns in providing the cover up: its sick, its horrible, I hate it: but its not MFP or Pixies or Dave52 or Sidlittles fault they have been played: they simply dont have the experiaqnce to clearly see whats happening and genuinely think they are doing the right thing. Thats psyops for you. Its far easier to manipulate peoples sense of right than make people do wrong

But it certainly IS the fault of creatures like Wood or Fetzer who are knowing agents in this. Johnson I dont know about, I consider it possible he is merely an attention seeker, he doesnt seem that astute to me. Shayler who knows where his head is at? I think it most likely he is a victim too

Now if anyone does agree with the above:

Do say so
I actually feel that the evidence of a plane at the pentagon is also very weak. I believe that the planes flying into the towers were really planes, but I don't believe that they are the same planes that the official story claims they are. I think that the probability that those planes were unmanned and remote controlled dummy planes, makes more sense than any other theory that I have heard. I also believe that a missile hitting the pentagon, makes more sense than a plane ever could, given the size of the hole, and other evidence I have seen in several video documentaries.

[boots]

I actually feel that the evidence of a plane at the pentagon is also very weak. I believe that the planes flying into the towers were really planes, but I don't believe that they are the same planes that the official story claims they are. I think that the probability that those planes were unmanned and remote controlled dummy planes, makes more sense than any other theory that I have heard. I also believe that a missile hitting the pentagon, makes more sense than a plane ever could, given the size of the hole, and other evidence I have seen in several video documentaries.

A breath of fresh air.

Hi ladyzania welcome to the forum:)

Yes they had the technology to fly the planes remotely many years ago.it was called Global Hawk they flew it from America to Australia with out a hitch and radar to land planes remotely. no need for hologram or other crap why risk it on an event like this?

[masonfree party]

you guys need to do abit more research into remote controlled planes and all their failings...

Crash and burn: $1bn spy plane disaster
By Gerard Ryle and Brian Robins
May 1, 2004


The Federal Government plans to spend up to $1 billion on robot spy planes that have a track record of mishaps and crashes.

More than half of the seven prototypes of the unmanned Global Hawk - a central plank of the new $50 billion defence spending plan - have been damaged or destroyed through technical failure or misadventure.

The dismal record emerged as a Herald investigation found that a number of current defence projects including jet fighters, destroyers, helicopters and missiles - worth billions of dollars - have been hit by cost blow-outs or are behind schedule.

The Global Hawk disasters include one lost after a bolt was installed backwards during servicing, a potential $80 million mistake if it were to be repeated in Australia.

A second plane was lost after accidentally picking up a self-destruct signal that was designed to bring down a nearby missile.

A third was lost through engine failure, and a fourth was damaged after crashing when its US military handler made a typing error on a computer control pad.

Stephen Gumley, the new head of the Defence Materiel Organisation, which buys military hardware, has admitted that up to 24 major projects are overtime and over budget.

Dr Gumley said most of the problem projects were quite old but the Herald has found that many are current, including: The Bushranger light armoured vehicle project, which has almost doubled in price to $329 million, and the vehicles have yet to enter full service. Higher costs and likely delays for the $12 billion new-generation joint strike fighter. A $1.5 billion blowout in the cost of air-warfare destroyers. Multi-million-dollar cost increases on helicopter projects such as the Seahawk upgrade and the planned trooplift helicopter. A 10-year delay in the installation of new air-to-ground missiles on F-111s, meaning that they will be fitted only four years before the planes are phased out.

Dr Gumley said: "The projects that have been taken on since DMO was formed [in 2000], virtually all of them are on time and on budget. But we do have a few problem ones which we are working to fix.

"The vast majority is due to technological discord. You have got to understand that military technology keeps moving on and this is something that perhaps isn't apparent to many people in the public."

The purchase of up to 12 Global Hawks is considered a certainty after one was tested at taxpayer expense in Australia in 2001.

The successful maritime surveillance tests cost about $15 million but most of the benefits flowed to the US military and the manufacturer of the planes, Northrop Grumman, the company has confirmed.

When the Federal Government first proposed buying robot planes just three years ago it said they would cost about $150 million.

But the Defence Minister, Robert Hill, announcing his 10-year Defence Capability Plan in February, said the program could now cost between $750 million and $1 billion.

The US General Accounting Office says that when the Global Hawks were conceived in 1994 they were expected to have an average "flyaway price" of $US10 million each.

Although the original concept has been heavily modified over the years, no explanation has been given for the sudden huge cost increases.

Senator Hill has praised the success of the robot aircraft in operations in Iraq and Afghanistan.

But Northrop Grumman admits that two of the craft were lost during these operations - more than a quarter of the prototype fleet. Neither was shot down but were affected by technical failures or poor maintenance.

"The losses of Global Hawk must be discussed within the context of their employment," the company said in a statement. "The Global Hawks employed in combat were Advanced Concept Technology Demonstrators [ACTD].

"The decision by senior US Air Force officials to employ the non-combat ready 'test' ACTD Global Hawk system recognised the fact that there were many risks to the system including no routine spare parts, no operationally trained crew members or maintenance personnel, and no proven and tested employment guides."

But the company said that these risks were far outweighed by the benefits of adding Global Hawk's capabilities to help shorten conflicts and save military and civilian lives.

Pentagon data on the number of crashes per hours flown shows that the Global Hawk had a crash rate 50 times higher than the F-16 fighter, a plane that frequently flies more dangerous missions and at lower altitudes, says a report in the August edition of New Scientist magazine.

A spokesman for Northrop Grumman said that it was unfair to compare a mature fighter aircraft with a pre-production prototype.

Only two general production versions of the Global Hawk have so far been built. They are in service with the US Air Force.

[marpat]

you guys need to do abit more research into remote controlled planes and all their failings...

Crash and burn: $1bn spy plane disaster
By Gerard Ryle and Brian Robins
May 1, 2004


The Federal Government plans to spend up to $1 billion on robot spy planes that have a track record of mishaps and crashes.

More than half of the seven prototypes of the unmanned Global Hawk - a central plank of the new $50 billion defence spending plan - have been damaged or destroyed through technical failure or misadventure.

The dismal record emerged as a Herald investigation found that a number of current defence projects including jet fighters, destroyers, helicopters and missiles - worth billions of dollars - have been hit by cost blow-outs or are behind schedule.

The Global Hawk disasters include one lost after a bolt was installed backwards during servicing, a potential $80 million mistake if it were to be repeated in Australia.

A second plane was lost after accidentally picking up a self-destruct signal that was designed to bring down a nearby missile.

A third was lost through engine failure, and a fourth was damaged after crashing when its US military handler made a typing error on a computer control pad.

Stephen Gumley, the new head of the Defence Materiel Organisation, which buys military hardware, has admitted that up to 24 major projects are overtime and over budget.

Dr Gumley said most of the problem projects were quite old but the Herald has found that many are current, including: The Bushranger light armoured vehicle project, which has almost doubled in price to $329 million, and the vehicles have yet to enter full service. Higher costs and likely delays for the $12 billion new-generation joint strike fighter. A $1.5 billion blowout in the cost of air-warfare destroyers. Multi-million-dollar cost increases on helicopter projects such as the Seahawk upgrade and the planned trooplift helicopter. A 10-year delay in the installation of new air-to-ground missiles on F-111s, meaning that they will be fitted only four years before the planes are phased out.

Dr Gumley said: "The projects that have been taken on since DMO was formed [in 2000], virtually all of them are on time and on budget. But we do have a few problem ones which we are working to fix.

"The vast majority is due to technological discord. You have got to understand that military technology keeps moving on and this is something that perhaps isn't apparent to many people in the public."

The purchase of up to 12 Global Hawks is considered a certainty after one was tested at taxpayer expense in Australia in 2001.

The successful maritime surveillance tests cost about $15 million but most of the benefits flowed to the US military and the manufacturer of the planes, Northrop Grumman, the company has confirmed.

When the Federal Government first proposed buying robot planes just three years ago it said they would cost about $150 million.

But the Defence Minister, Robert Hill, announcing his 10-year Defence Capability Plan in February, said the program could now cost between $750 million and $1 billion.

The US General Accounting Office says that when the Global Hawks were conceived in 1994 they were expected to have an average "flyaway price" of $US10 million each.

Although the original concept has been heavily modified over the years, no explanation has been given for the sudden huge cost increases.

Senator Hill has praised the success of the robot aircraft in operations in Iraq and Afghanistan.

But Northrop Grumman admits that two of the craft were lost during these operations - more than a quarter of the prototype fleet. Neither was shot down but were affected by technical failures or poor maintenance.

"The losses of Global Hawk must be discussed within the context of their employment," the company said in a statement. "The Global Hawks employed in combat were Advanced Concept Technology Demonstrators [ACTD].

"The decision by senior US Air Force officials to employ the non-combat ready 'test' ACTD Global Hawk system recognised the fact that there were many risks to the system including no routine spare parts, no operationally trained crew members or maintenance personnel, and no proven and tested employment guides."

But the company said that these risks were far outweighed by the benefits of adding Global Hawk's capabilities to help shorten conflicts and save military and civilian lives.

Pentagon data on the number of crashes per hours flown shows that the Global Hawk had a crash rate 50 times higher than the F-16 fighter, a plane that frequently flies more dangerous missions and at lower altitudes, says a report in the August edition of New Scientist magazine.

A spokesman for Northrop Grumman said that it was unfair to compare a mature fighter aircraft with a pre-production prototype.

Only two general production versions of the Global Hawk have so far been built. They are in service with the US Air Force.

Big post, lots of info but proving nothing.

[dave52]

The actual microsecond of imapct and the resulting pressure wave fucked with the camera and a part second AT MOST of poor quality frames were edited for the benefit of the film as a whole

Mate, that's a classic, a gift. Thanks.

I'm going to bed now - sweetdreams... :)

[boots]

Sucked in again.

Do you really think the first time they flew global hawk WAS the very first time they tried it.

When the military gets a technology and first show it to the public you can bet a million dollars that they have had it for more than 15 years and perfected it.

Quoting from the Australia Herald a Murdock owned newspaper Thats full of shit.

You really need some discernment.

OR you work for them????? Hope NOT.

Quote:
Originally Posted by masonfree party http://www.davidicke.com/forum/images/buttons_green/viewpost.gif (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?p=360810#post360810)
[I]you guys need to do abit more research into remote controlled planes and all their failings...

Crash and burn: $1bn spy plane disaster
By Gerard Ryle and Brian Robins
May 1, 2004


The Federal Government plans to spend up to $1 billion on robot spy planes that have a track record of mishaps and crashes.

More than half of the seven prototypes of the unmanned Global Hawk - a central plank of the new $50 billion defence spending plan - have been damaged or destroyed through technical failure or misadventure.

The dismal record emerged as a Herald investigation found that a number of current defence projects including jet fighters, destroyers, helicopters and missiles - worth billions of dollars - have been hit by cost blow-outs or are behind schedule.

The Global Hawk disasters include one lost after a bolt was installed backwards during servicing, a potential $80 million mistake if it were to be repeated in Australia.

A second plane was lost after accidentally picking up a self-destruct signal that was designed to bring down a nearby missile.

A third was lost through engine failure, and a fourth was damaged after crashing when its US military handler made a typing error on a computer control pad.

Stephen Gumley, the new head of the Defence Materiel Organisation, which buys military hardware, has admitted that up to 24 major projects are overtime and over budget.

Dr Gumley said most of the problem projects were quite old but the Herald has found that many are current, including: The Bushranger light armoured vehicle project, which has almost doubled in price to $329 million, and the vehicles have yet to enter full service. Higher costs and likely delays for the $12 billion new-generation joint strike fighter. A $1.5 billion blowout in the cost of air-warfare destroyers. Multi-million-dollar cost increases on helicopter projects such as the Seahawk upgrade and the planned trooplift helicopter. A 10-year delay in the installation of new air-to-ground missiles on F-111s, meaning that they will be fitted only four years before the planes are phased out.

Dr Gumley said: "The projects that have been taken on since DMO was formed , virtually all of them are on time and on budget. But we do have a few problem ones which we are working to fix.

"The vast majority is due to technological discord. You have got to understand that military technology keeps moving on and this is something that perhaps isn't apparent to many people in the public."

The purchase of up to 12 Global Hawks is considered a certainty after one was tested at taxpayer expense in Australia in 2001.

The successful maritime surveillance tests cost about $15 million but most of the benefits flowed to the US military and the manufacturer of the planes, Northrop Grumman, the company has confirmed.

When the Federal Government first proposed buying robot planes just three years ago it said they would cost about $150 million.

But the Defence Minister, Robert Hill, announcing his 10-year Defence Capability Plan in February, said the program could now cost between $750 million and $1 billion.

The US General Accounting Office says that when the Global Hawks were conceived in 1994 they were expected to have an average "flyaway price" of $US10 million each.

Although the original concept has been heavily modified over the years, no explanation has been given for the sudden huge cost increases.

Senator Hill has praised the success of the robot aircraft in operations in Iraq and Afghanistan.

But Northrop Grumman admits that two of the craft were lost during these operations - more than a quarter of the prototype fleet. Neither was shot down but were affected by technical failures or poor maintenance.

"The losses of Global Hawk must be discussed within the context of their employment," the company said in a statement. "The Global Hawks employed in combat were Advanced Concept Technology Demonstrators [ACTD].

"The decision by senior US Air Force officials to employ the non-combat ready 'test' ACTD Global Hawk system recognised the fact that there were many risks to the system including no routine spare parts, no operationally trained crew members or maintenance personnel, and no proven and tested employment guides."

But the company said that these risks were far outweighed by the benefits of adding Global Hawk's capabilities to help shorten conflicts and save military and civilian lives.

Pentagon data on the number of crashes per hours flown shows that the Global Hawk had a crash rate 50 times higher than the F-16 fighter, a plane that frequently flies more dangerous missions and at lower altitudes, says a report in the August edition of New Scientist magazine.

A spokesman for Northrop Grumman said that it was unfair to compare a mature fighter aircraft with a pre-production prototype.

Only two general production versions of the Global Hawk have so far been built. They are in service with the US Air Force.

[john white]

And lets say one of the planes remote control malfunctioned (who said it didnt?)

"terrible tragedy as one of the WTC towers is brought down by a plane impact, we understand a second hijacked plane crashed into the atlantic oceon after a heroic struggle between the pilot and islamic terrorists trying to hijack the plane..... we can only be thankful that the death toll could have been much much worse....still appaling scenes of tragedy in New York today. President Bush said America will respond to punish those responsible..."

Technical failures can and are planned for... but some failures after WHO KNOWs how many hours of service and how many succesful flights based only on the system that is admitted to (while MFP also firmly believes super beam weapons are orbiting the earth which we know nothing about based on absolutely bugger all evidence...)

[weston white]

Fly-by-wire systems and remote controlled planes, are not the same thing at all. Fly-by-wire systems have been around since the late 70's, IIRC, and remote controlled planes is a new technology being developed more recently.

[graflok]

I guess they must have used real dinosaurs in the Jurassic Park
movies. I mean, the evidence is overwhelmingly strong. I saw them plain
as day! And, I heard them too! :eek:

Now, don't tell me there's a no-dinosaur theory. That would be preposterous!

[hagbard_celine]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=823734902101057550

Thanks, BB. I'll have a look at the other side of the story.:)

[graflok]

Then explain why straw can pierce concrete through tornadoes.

I've heard the myth about straw passing through a tree or wooden telephone
pole (which the Mythbusters tried to duplicate and failed (http://kwc.org/mythbusters/2006/09/episode_61_deadly_straw_primar.html)) but I've never heard
of this straw-through-concrete scenario.

Could you provide more information on this?

[bipolar bear]

Originally Posted by masonfree party
yes but not wings that can create massive cartoon cut outs in buildings like roadrunner had just passed through...Newtons third law says its impossible for aluminium wings to pass through steel beams...end of story...case closed

Please show you're calculations.

Is there any chance of seeing the calculations? You made the claim Newtons third law says its impossible for aluminium wings to pass through steel beams...end of story...case closed what made you say that, you must have evidence.

[john white]

There are several shots like that.

A forum member has recently made me aware of the September Clues film. I'm starting to see this a bit like the moon landings, with all the anomalous photoes and TV footage. There are several shots where the plane appears to morph or appear not to have a plane shape at all.

(There may be another thread for this, but the bit where the bridge moves across the screen is very weird! Is there any explanation for that?)

Being as its you Hagbard I'm more than happy to help:

Its a standard optical illusion caused by the normal operation of telephoto lenses, such as those used to focus and zoom on an (obviously) stationary tower whilst circling it in a helicopter from some distance away

In fact, the effects of telephoto lenses are frequently used in films to add movement and drama to distance shots

Bottom line is, its proof of absolutely nothing at all other than exactly what it is: a camera zooming on the towers

[jahzel]

Cut the bullshit, there was a plane, it wasn't a hologram, there are millions of witnesses, videos can be deceptive, the movement has been infiltrated by change agents, and I'm sick and tired of these no-plane theory yahoos....mmm roast chicken.

[bipolar bear]

Being as its you Hagbard I'm more than happy to help:

Its a standard optical illusion caused by the normal operation of telephoto lenses, such as those used to focus and zoom on an (obviously) stationary tower whilst circling it in a helicopter from some distance away

In fact, the effects of telephoto lenses are frequently used in films to add movement and drama to distance shots

Bottom line is, its proof of absolutely nothing at all other than exactly what it is: a camera zooming on the towers


It seems Hagbard is not only oblivious in the way telephoto lenses can make a picture look but wide angle lenses as well. I draw this conclusion from reading some of his posts on Apollo pictures.

May be a short course on photography would sort your doubts out Hagbard.

[dave52]

there are millions of witnesses.

Could you provide a witness that doesn't have links to the media? And don't forget, seeing an explosion at the top of a tower, then being brain washed by a mantra of "see the plane, see the plane", is not the same thing as witnessing a plane crash.

[mr_pixie]

There could be another explanation for the planes going through solid steel beams, maybe the laws of psychics were suspended on 9/11 with some kind of really power-full magick by the Illuminati in combination with astrology and numerology this could be a possibility if you believe in quantum psychics were 99.9% of our physical world is not solid and were we have unexplained phenomena like people walking through walls and people teleporting to different placers in the world, and like ghost sightings or like Alien abductions were the Alien being came through the walls, as well with the beam weapons maybe the perps had some kind of advanced technology were they can go through solid walls? And were able to put a magkic invisible shield about the planes which made them go through the towers like bullets?


http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh108/Lizardhunter/2hit7.gif


I'm open to looking at all possibilities.

[3stepsahead]

i have two photos from the second impact, wich BOTH shows a dark grey or black plane. that is quite obviously not airliners. what does that add to the discussion? one of them has the black aeroplane with its nose buried into the walls exactly when the odd flash occurs. now the only thing authentic about that plane is the flash and the "cylinder" thing that somehow is attached to the plane.. the plane itself does not look like its crashing into anything, more like cutting through butter, no fumes no damage to either nose or walls..

whatever that means i do belive the videos are tampered with because of a lot of inconsistencys. and the fact that making such images is a piece of pie
put against for example the fall of the towers itself.

some guys here believe that no planes means hogram or ufos and dismisses the whole idea of tampering with the recordings itself... probably in good knowing of that..

the conclusion is however that the important issues gets rather forgotten while new and obsceene ideas step forward.
for example: the planes are NOT general airliners , and that should settle everything..


ps i cant be arsed to upload the photos but i do have them i swear on the grave of draculas victims..

[mr_pixie]

Bump :)

[hagbard_celine]

Being as its you Hagbard I'm more than happy to help:

Its a standard optical illusion caused by the normal operation of telephoto lenses, such as those used to focus and zoom on an (obviously) stationary tower whilst circling it in a helicopter from some distance away

In fact, the effects of telephoto lenses are frequently used in films to add movement and drama to distance shots

Bottom line is, its proof of absolutely nothing at all other than exactly what it is: a camera zooming on the towers

Thanks, John.:)

I'm quite new to this controversy and I'm carefully looking at both sides of the debate. I'm glad you realize that I've no intention of joining in with the verbal punch-up that seems to erupt whenever this subject is raised.

I've watched the September Clues Busted! film. It certainly responds to most of the question raised in my mind by SC to my satisfaction, ie, 95%+ positive. I don't think it's possible to completely rule out the possibility of manipulation of the visual record of 9/11, but we can make it highly unlikely. My studies will continue for now.

[hagbard_celine]

It seems Hagbard is not only oblivious in the way telephoto lenses can make a picture look but wide angle lenses as well. I draw this conclusion from reading some of his posts on Apollo pictures.

May be a short course on photography would sort your doubts out Hagbard.

If you read the post I wrote above you'll see that I accept JW's analysis.

All I did was ask a question about it. I thought you'd be pleased that I'm doing that.:rolleyes: After all, you're the one who drew my attention to SC-busted!

No, I don't need a course in photography at all, not so long as I'm asking questions instead of jumping to conclusions.

[picha]

Bump :)

I fing it really quite bizarre how anyone can look at that and still believe its a real plane.

You can see the building still in tact where the wing has supposedly sliced through it like butter!!

[ninja17]

Magick like in the "Abramelin" ?

Could be..

[mr_pixie]

The towers lathering up

Smoke coming from the sides, and sometimes traveling Downwards.?

http://www.drjudywood.com/articles/dirt/fpics/wtc-09_1_small.jpg

http://www.drjudywood.com/articles/dirt/fpics/wtc-19_1_small.jpg

http://www.drjudywood.com/articles/dirt/fpics/wtc-21_1_small.jpg


Notice the dark and light smoke?
http://www.drjudywood.com/articles/dirt/fpics/wtc-53_1_small.jpg

http://www.drjudywood.com/articles/wtc7/pics/GJS-WTC010.jpg

[krakhead]

Sorry to be a bit dense here - but what's your point?

[mr_pixie]

Sorry to be a bit dense here - but what's your point?

Dont you think it's a bit strange, where does all that smoke come from? Maybe the lather had a weaking affect on the steel in the towers.

[steevo]

Dont you think it's a bit strange, where does all that smoke come from? Maybe the lather had a weaking affect on the steel in the towers.

What are you on Pixie ?
I have heard some BS arguments that you have come up with about why the towers collapsed but this one takes the biscuit. Sorry :p:rolleyes::eek::D

[mr_pixie]

What are you on Pixie ?
I have heard some BS arguments that you have come up with about why the towers collapsed but this one takes the biscuit. Sorry :p:rolleyes::eek::D

All that smoke from the twin towers and B7 didnt all come from fires and building collapes, why dont you just go on Judy's site and click on the lathering section and see for your self.



Twin towers Lathering up
http://www.drjudywood.com/articles/dirt/dirt5.html


Building 7 Lathering up
Just scroll down
http://www.drjudywood.com/articles/dirt/WTC7.html

[mr_pixie]

Why is smoke coming out of the ENTIRE side of the building 7? This clip is from a history channel documentary - and they played it BACKWARDS (I noticed the firemen walking backwards).

http://www.YouTube.com/watch?v=5dH4UFAV4d4


Judy discusses the lathering about 1 hour into this audio:
http://www.checktheevidence.com/audio/911/Prof%20Judy%20Wood%20-%20WTC%20Rust%20Analysis%20and%20Re-Examining%20WTC%207%20-%20Dynamic%20Duo%20-%2020%20Jun%202007.mp3

[krakhead]

Dont you think it's a bit strange, where does all that smoke come from? Maybe the lather had a weaking affect on the steel in the towers.

Lather?! As in 'soapy bubbles'? :confused:

[mr_pixie]

Lather?! As in 'soapy bubbles'? :confused:

Silly :D

[weston white]

So now the buildings lathered themselves to the ground? Why does anybody listen to that nutjob of a woman? Is there anything else she could possibly use as a new theory. I think she has about used up all of her silly little "theory" cards.

[majicdragon]

It was the thermate taking out the main steel support before the explosives were used to demolish the buildings.

if you were to blow up buildings without taking out the main steel structure, the building would still blow up, but the structure would be left.

She's not saying the buildings lathered on their own, and I don't know why she chose the word.

[steevo]

Mr Pixie, are you really trying to make a case for lather and no planes bringing the building down ? Some people are on this forum to try to get the sheeple to ridicule anyone who says 911 was an inside job and you seem to be one of them Pixie IMO.
"Lather" lmao what a load of shit.

[mr_pixie]

It was the thermate taking out the main steel support before the explosives were used to demolish the buildings.

if you were to blow up buildings without taking out the main steel structure, the building would still blow up, but the structure would be left.

She's not saying the buildings lathered on their own, and I don't know why she chose the word.



Yes but most of the towers were vaporised before they hit the ground are you saying that thermite can do that? Turn steel to dust??

After towers 1 & 2 turned to dust then that dust carried on breaking down and turned into micro fine dust, that went back up into the air. (Molecular Dissociation)

Anyway back to the lather, I think the squibs are not detonation point's they are lather squirting out from the buildings. It could of been easier to bring in this lather/chemical or what ever it was and put it at certan points in the buildings (rather then placing explosives) and when the beam hit the towers it activate's the chemical in the lather to disintergrate the steel the WTC 1,2 & maybe 7 as well. Conventional explosives + thermite/thermate can't disintegrate a building like that, these towers were too big. the energy needed would be too much for conventional bombs to do.


What better cover story, when it comes to tail of the neo-cons they will just say the squibs were just air pressure sqeezing out the windows as the floors came down onto each other, just think about it how would they set up all those charges in the the buildings they would need explosives like dynamite on ever pillar post beam joist etc.... every five foot to make those buildings disintegrate in 10 seconds and then themite on the core columns.

You must not have all the info avallabile if you think that a combination thermite and charges/bombs turned those buindings into dust in 10 seconds becuse that's what happened. Thermite is for cutting/melting through metal etc... but it's messy.

[mr_pixie]

She's not saying the buildings lathered on their own, and I don't know why she chose the word.

That's because we dont know what it is?

[mr_pixie]

no planes bringing the building down

How can no planes bring down a building ? listen to your self:D

[mr_pixie]

More Smoke/lather coming from Building 7
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Afb7eUHr64U

Notice the differnt colour smoke coming from the same building? This is not normal smoke, It's lathering up so it can weaken the steel.

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh108/Lizardhunter/NYC20197.jpg

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh108/Lizardhunter/NYC20193.jpg

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh108/Lizardhunter/NYC14148.jpg

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh108/Lizardhunter/IMG_1499.jpg

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh108/Lizardhunter/image001.jpg

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh108/Lizardhunter/search2.jpg

http://i254.photobucket.com/albums/hh108/Lizardhunter/WTC7_Smoke_2.jpg

[mr_pixie]

Smoke/Lather from B7

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Afb7eUHr64U

[mr_pixie]

Dr Judy Wood Discusses Hurricane Erin and 9/11 on "We Ourselves"


http://www.checktheevidence.com/audio/911/Dr%20Judy%20Wood%20-%20We%20Ourselves%20-%20Hurricane%20Erin%20and%20911%20-%2027%20May%202008.mp3


http://www.checktheevidence.com/audio/911/index.php?dir=&sort=date&order=desc

Dr Judy Wood - We Ourselves - Hurricane Erin and 911 - 27 May 2008.mp3 (11.7 MB)

http://www.drjudywood.com/articles/erin/

[mr_pixie]

The latest video of Judy in Seattle has made me think again and even look at this from an even bigger picture I've always thought about this but sort of put in on the back burner, Judy show video clips of tornado's coming up from the ground, something I hadn't noticed or seen before, so I have to ask the question is that really natural weather? If fact it any of these violent weather patens natural or is all man made?

http://www.checktheevidence.co.uk/cms/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=189&Itemid=60

[stealth_0073]

The video of judy wood at Portland ( Field Effects and Hurricane Erin )


http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=judy...en&sitesearch=# (http://video.google.com/videosearch?q=judy+wood+portland+oregon&hl=en&sitesearch=#)

[masonfree party]

http://video.google.co.uk/videoplay?docid=-1629432753754577496

[mr_pixie]

The 9/11 Truth movement needs to focus more on the twin towers collapse, rather than Building 7 and the Pentagon. After all the twin towers were the main event. The Movement are setting themselfs up foer a big fall. Only 7 and the Pentagon are the way in for the new world order.

[mynameis]

The 9/11 Truth movement needs to focus more on the twin towers collapse, rather than Building 7 and the Pentagon. After all the twin towers were the main event. The Movement are setting themselfs up foer a big fall. Only 7 and the Pentagon are the way in for the new world order.

This is what Mr. Pixie's job is watch this....:

The No Planers needs to focus more on the reality of planes and 911, rather than TV Fakery and Spacebeams. After all the planes hitting the towers were the main event. The "Movement" are setting themselfs up foer a big fall. (Who describes them as "The Movement?"; government agents that's who). No Planes and TV Fakery are the way in for the new world order.

Who ever wrote this seems to be using hidden communications language techniques for manipulation mixed with "double think" to lead people to believe a failing dogma. It's just like the BBC hit piece. It's as if like each and every time these people appear on here, they are looking for the 60 percent of the milligram experiment to believe them for your own good.


Diffusion of reaction and obedience to authority
By Jerry Mazza
Online Journal Associate Editor


Jul 9, 2008, 00:20

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The “diffusion of reaction,” part of the “bystander effect (also known as bystander apathy, Genovese syndrome, diffused responsibility or bystander intervention) is a psychological phenomenon in which someone is less likely to intervene in an emergency situation when other people are present and able to help than when he or she is alone,” says Wikipedia.

It defines a psychological tenet that the more people you have witnessing a natural tragedy, crime or accident, the less anyone is likely to do a damn thing about it, even shuffle their feet. Witness the famous Kitty Genovese story that took place in Kew Gardens, Queens, on March 13, 1964. The 28-year old Genovese was seen by some 38 of her neighbors as her murderer methodically stabbed her to death.

Last week in Kings County Hospital psychiatric emergency room in Brooklyn, a 49-year-old woman sitting in a chair, waiting for care, fell to the floor and died, while several seated persons got up and simply walked away. This while another woman slept through it all. It’s all caught by a video camera.

When finally, after a long while, a security guard sees her lying there, he goes for help. It takes some time before the guard returns with an orderly and a gurney. As the dead woman is being put on the gurney, the sleeping woman wakes and is angered that she is not put on the gurney and cared for, instead of the dead woman.

Of course the deceased’s family is shocked by the indifference of their fellow beings, and are now suing the hospital, which has began investigating the actions of its security and medical staff.

Wikepedia also described the diffusions of reactions in “hierarchical organizations as when, for example, underlings claim that they were following orders and supervisors claim that they were just issuing directives and not doing anything per se.” Duh, I don’t know, nobody told me what to do? Duh, what was I supposed to tell them? Duh, we’re just ducks in a row. It seems to echo the Kings County Hospital tragedy.

The concepts of the “diffusion of reaction” and “bystander effect,” taken a step further, criss-cross with the brilliant psychologist Stanley Milgram’s experiment on disobedience. Milgram contended and proved that given a Voice of Authority commanding even conscionable, decent people could do awful things to their fellow human beings when they blindly listened to The Voice, even when they heard victims scream and plead for mercy they continued, just so long as The Voice of Authority kept asserting, do it, do it, do it.

Milgram, deeply moved by the trial of Nazi war criminal Adolf Eichmann in Jerusalem, devised his experiment with college students to question whether “Eichmann and his million accomplices in the Holocaust were just following orders.”

As Milgrim wrote, “If at any time the subject indicated his desire to halt the experiment, he was given a succession of verbal prods by the experimenter, in this order:

“Please continue.

“The experiment requires that you continue.

“It is absolutely essential that you continue.

“You have no other choice, you must go on.”

The Wikipedia entry adds, “If the subject still wished to stop after all four successive verbal prods, the experiment was halted. Otherwise, it was halted after the subject had given the maximum 450-volt shock three times in succession. This experiment itself raised some ethical issues as Stanley Milgram deceived his study’s subjects, and put them under more pressure than many believe was necessary . . .” (You may read the experiment’s full details by clicking on the Milgram link.)

That said, 65 percent of the experiment participants administered the full final 450-volt shock, though many felt uneasy doing so. In fact, at some point every participant stopped and questioned the experiment. Some claimed they would give back the money paid for taking part in it. Yet no participant really steadfastly turned down administering shocks before the 300-volt level. So how much infliction of pain does it take for one being to realize his/her humanity?

The experiment was repeated and performed by other psychologists, with variations, throughout the world with similar results: 60 to 66 percent of participants were ready to inflict fatal voltages, regardless of time or place. What’s more, no participants refused to administer the final shock or demanded that the experiment be ended. Nor did they leave their isolated room to check on the health of the victim, that is, without asking for permission to leave.

Milgram made a documentary film called Obedience which showed the experiment and its eerie results. Now, do we tie these conclusions solely to Germans acting robotically during the holocaust or our own confessed “torture performers” in the CIA, FBI, or US Army, who say they were all acting on approved orders from The Voice of Authority from the Top? And this is the point.

Combined with the average TV viewers’ willingness to turn from the news of Iraq, where bodies are being blown into smithereens, to the sports news or a cooking or “reality” show, we have a magnificent portrait of “diffusion reactions,” “bystander effects,” all under the compelling Voice of Authority, whether it is Bush himself, Cheney, Condi, or the Aryan anchormen and women, blond, well-coiffed, uniformly suited, high-heeled, the male counterparts in pinstriped suits, tailored shirts, and silk ties, the paradigms of authority, class, cash, and command.

The question is, how do we stimulate the conscience, the will to do right, the ethical ego, the conscious knowledge of right from wrong from the manipulation of the lower impulses of folk at all levels of society? I think this is the key to taking back this society from “The War on Terror,” whose terrorist originators keep the population in fear, angst, and mechanical obeisance.

How else to explain our own people lied into the Iraq war, armies attacking Afghanistan and Iraq, armies of young people being asked to kill and maim, to commit blinding atrocities. And they obey. And they pay, with wounds of the body and wounds of the mind, haunted, until they are blotto with antidepressants and other drugs. They are shocked bystanders, their reactions diffused by the thousands who fight with them, thinking someone will speak up, someone will put a halt to the carnage. Yet no one does. It goes on and on and on . . .

“Please continue.

“The experiment requires that you continue.

“It is absolutely essential that you continue.

“You have no other choice, you must go on.”

And those who were meant to go home, do not. They are told they must stay and fight more. And we surge into more bloodshed, only to reveal that last month we had the highest death toll in Afghanistan since the war began. Again, how do we defeat The Voice of Authority, not just Bush, but the concept, the herd instinct to follow some deadhead lemming into the sea? What training does it take to teach people to think, act, speak for themselves?

Was the search for democracy and its institutions (many of which are now summarily dismissed) . . . was that search not to climb from under the thumb of an insane King George III. Were the nobles who gathered round an earlier king to sign the Magna Carta striving, too, to silence The Voice of Authority? Has our time here on this planet, the evolution of our consciousness, been to free us from apathy, indifference, random violence, to see our humanity in the looking glass? Can we find that original responsive self or are we doomed to be robots?

Think about it. You don’t need to continue with the experiment. It is not absolutely essential that you continue. You have another choice. You don’t have to go on, soldier, politician, policeman, priest. You can always find freedom, original choice, in the space of your imagination, in your heart’s compassion, in the willingness, the courage to disagree. One might say your life depends on it, not to mention your soul.

http://onlinejournal.com/artman/publish/article_3469.shtml

[mr_pixie]

I must be an agent then? :o

[stealth_0073]

This is what Mr. Pixie's job is watch this....:

The No Planers needs to focus more on the reality of planes and 911, rather than TV Fakery and Spacebeams.


who said they come from space!!
lasers don't need to come from space they come from ariel vehicles
e4b black op helicopters airforce 1

so your denying the existence of exotic weaponry
you clearly have some agenda of hiding the truth.


what's your thoughts on what happened that day.

[dave52]

It's just like the BBC hit piece. It's as if like each and every time these people appear on here, they are looking for the 60 percent of the milligram experiment to believe them for your own good.

There were no "no planers" represented on the BBC hit piece. There was a one second shot of Nico's "TV Fakery" t-shirt, but that was it. Plenty of Thermite/Thermate/Plane Hugger coverage though...

[walle]

Who do you think are behind these so called ”truth” movements ? why do you think nothing moves forward ? why nothing happens ? nothing is solved ? I would say that that’s because those who attacked you on 911 are the very same people who are behind all these movements, why ? well; “order out of chaos” remember ?. The Satanists has already started to “shout” anarchy out on the internet and soon you will see the very same being forwarded in main stream mass media ! you just watch and see..

Now...

Remain calm, what the Illuminati fear more than anything else is a calm, cool and collective approach to all this, remember that ! simply put; if there is no chaos there will be no order to restore, it will become more difficult for them.

Bare in mind, that these people are not stupid, far from it folks…far from it.

And NO, there were no planes but two missiles and controlled demolitions, now, people can go around in circles as much as they want too (no offence) but it doesn’t change the facts nor does it solve anything, again; have you seen anything moving forward during these seven years ? no, of course not; its not meant to move forward but meant to rile people up, and that’s it.

[phaid]

A controversial (?) and long, article about the state of the 'Truth' movement - worth a read if you've got the time and an open mind
Thinking About 9-11, the Truth, and the Official Movement
By Cathy Garger
Jun 26, 2008

At the Radford Conference last month, despite the fact I was there to speak on radioactive weapons (Depleted Uranium) and moderate a War Crimes/Indictment Panel, I was followed around by Official 9-11 Truth men-on-a-mission. These creepy individuals, wearing standard-issue-black 9-11 Truth T-shirts as identifying “uniforms,” followed me, sat next to me, and made me gag during mealtimes.

Apparently, I was part of the weekend “agenda” for these dedicated defenders of Empire.

In this group I shall include one certain over-confident writer seated next to me one night at dinner. The author was incredulous I had not read his novel, roughly based on Official 9-11 Truth Movement doctrine. It appears I managed to say something to piss off the writer sufficiently - enough to cause him to leave the table before dessert! I suspect his departure - without as much as a “good bye”- had something to do with my sharing that I’d studied 9-11 for years, had heard of his book, but expressed no intention of reading it.

He also appeared incredulous I had the audacity to suggest the Twin Towers were, in all likelihood, not felled by the same method as was building 7. But mostly, I suspect the author was disturbed I did not swoon sufficiently in his direction – in what clearly was an over-inflated self image as a celebrated Official 9-11 movement “celebrity.”

Like I said, his book is a novel – i.e., pure fiction. And with the world falling down around us, tell me who has the time – or stomach - for such nonsense? Actually, when you rip off the outer core or “shell” of the issue, it’s all but a “game” being played on Americans - whereby outright lies about what happened on September 11 are being pawned off as Official “Truth.”

The other 9-11 black-shirt dudes knew who I was – but apparently had no idea I was “on to” them. I sat expressionless and even nodded politely throughout their lectures, not arguing too strenuously when expressing viewpoints that did not exactly “jive” with their Official 911-Truth Gospel.

I’ve got to admit, it was rather exciting to watch obvious agents of the Empire sweat. (Okay, we all get our kicks in different ways, I guess!) But I deemed it only fair, after all, that during their weekend spent “working” the likes of me, they should, by all rights, be kept busy “earning their keep”. After all, my tax dollars were clearly hard at work! Thus, I was eager to listen with fascinated bemusement to their multitude of canned and memorized “talking points” – as all good 9-11 Movement leaders do - regurgitating upon non-suspecting poor souls facts learned, no doubt, back in 9-11 Official Truth Training School.

I’m not sure where 9-11 Official Truth Training is held (some say Spook Central is located in Miami). But one thing’s for dang certain, the program is well-run and turns out personable, articulate, semi-intelligent robots capable of running their mouths like a broken record, operating a DVD player, directing groups to hold signs and hand out fliers on city street corners, and all the other myriad logistical details required to run a 9-11 Official Truth Movement operation in a major city. And to their credit, these individuals apparently study quite hard, as they are all quite adept at spitting back the latest currently featured stories - including slick propaganda weaved into professional quality videos on the 9-11 Official Truth website.

During the lectures that May weekend, I heard the usual stuff these “movement” leaders lamely offer, such as stock “put options,” and the tired story of a Maintenance hero named William R. who reportedly found bombs (i.e., explosives) in stairwells. I was also subject to listening (for the ten thousandth time) about hijackers taking flight lessons in Florida and Silverstein admitting to “pulling” WTC7, via controlled demolition.

Now and then I would playfully insert a comment to increase their heart rate and provoke their visible excitement (yeah, I told you I get off on this stuff!) … while I was seriously cautioned to never verbalize out loud the lack of any substantial proof or credible evidence (the kind that can’t be doctored or fudged) that commercial passenger jet planes ever actually hit the towers. Nor should we ever, I was sternly admonished, discuss missiles nor Directed Energy Weapons such as the Airborne Laser - even if we do find these topics interesting - because then, as the Official 9-11 catechism teaching goes, that would scare people off, make them think we are lunatics, and “discredit the movement” for all those still new to exploring the so-called “Truth.”

God help me, I swear I heard the word “movement” with regard to 9-11 more times that weekend than I heard the words “war” and “peace” out of the mouths of graying, former hippies who flew out from San Francisco to attend the Virginia conference. These “brown shirts” (okay, their 9-11 shirts were black, but you get the point) did not appreciate my simple question, one I asked many times, namely, “Uh….What about the actual Truth?” I was told repeatedly that people cannot handle the truth, so we should, therefore, stick only to whatever safe, easy to understand facts could potentially “help the movement,” being sure not to take any risks by discussing things people might find difficult to believe, understand, or digest.

Ah, I see … 9-11 Pablum for the masses was their deal! Let’s not give Americans the actual Truth, but rather be all-concerned with presenting only a few easy-to-swallow tidbits so we don’t have to stretch their incompetent minds to deal with science … science, that is, that might very well lead to a wee bit too much Truth for those in power to be able to handle! Yes, at the Radford Conference of the World Prout Assembly this May, 2008, the mission of the national guarders-of-Truth was absolutely confirmed!

I kept wondering precisely what “movement” there is if we are not encouraged to get to the bottom of things and research the science for ourselves to figure out what happened. I mean, do these guys not realize how doggone obvious they are, forcing upon people only certain pre-established issues and pre-determined conclusions, deemed to be safe for the “movement?” Did they not comprehend that the very fact they are so adamant that we all stick so narrowly to their pre-fabricated agenda, with absolutely zero tolerance for inquisitive pondering, is a blatantly obvious indication to anyone with even half a brain that these men in black had been specifically trained and “tasked” with a specific mission?

I tried to keep a straight face as I was also informed (as if religious dogma) that we should only listen to the work of one particular scientist. Strategically positioned as the quiet, religious, “choir boy” expert as close to god as the world will ever find, this federally-trained scientist has been widely heralded in 9-11 Official Truth Movement circles as the solitary guru who possesses the *only* scientific theory worth considering.

No matter that the scientist in question worked for a major national DOE weapons laboratory in the field of advanced energy projects research. Followers of Official 9-11 Truth doctrine are not concerned with such petty details like the curious past of their movement’s savior and the other conspicuously religious, “patriot” military dude who used to command the laser weapons programs used by the US military in our skies above.

Very interesting “Truth” indeed! When discussing how the towers were obliterated into tons of fine, powdery dust before our very eyes, there is no room, no tolerance for discussion. Try to make a point for anything other than “Super Thermate” and one can absolutely count on being slammed without opportunity for comment in a Ground Zero minute!

No matter the US military is the only entity capable of using high energy weapons technology to obliterate 110-story skyscrapers into mere dust! With the Official 9-11 Movement, it’s always case closed, no room for any alternative theory that might put a one-of-a-kind identifying fingerprint uniquely, squarely on the supremely powerful red, white, and blue… and its private military force that does not even answer to the Pentagon.

The mission of the controlled Official 9-11 Truth Movement is both blatantly obvious and absolutely understandable. One can certainly see the perpetrators’ unquestionably critical need to direct away from such, um, inconvenient little details. It’s quite elementary, actually, when we comprehend the necessity of sticking to any story that prevents the dirty deeds from being able to be attributed to the only perps capable of possessing a certain particularly distinguishable technology.

For truly all hell would break loose if Ma and Pa in the heartland were to realize that “terr’ist” hijackers could not possibly have flown commercial passenger airliners into the Twin Towers nor planted explosives high up in the towers – even though our Fearless Leader did tell the world this is precisely what happened.

I sat and listened more than once that weekend in Virginia to the Official 9-11 canned spiel, allowing these defenders of Empire to think they were actually winning me, a critical thinker and seasoned Associate Member of Scholars for 9-11 Truth, over into 9-11 Official Truth Movement Group-Think. I was able to look them straight in the eye and catch every word of their well-researched speeches, all the while asking myself if agents paid to lead 9-11 Official Truth Groups in major cities ‘round the world were, in reality, not even a mite bit smarter than little ol’ me?

Apparently not.

Listen up guys, if you’re reading (and I’m quite certain you are). I’ve been studying 9-11 for years before you even went to spook school. Don’t waste any more time on me, as I gave up your god and Official Group-Think doctrine years back. I have done my homework, I know who you answer to, and I am well aware of your mission. Been there, heard that so many times before. So next time fellas, please go find some other sucka to goon upon!

And to the rest of you good-hearted, smart folks? I suggest you join me in questioning the existence of a national, highly structured, organized group with a central home base, slick websites, professional videos of the caliber only highly trained propaganda experts could produce, and enough funding to pay an extremely highly skilled staff.

I invite you to think long and hard about this zealous group, with decisions handed down for them on high from “Headquarters” (their term, not mine) with regard to what to tell the masses and how to spin it all together quite neatly into a tight little package – efficiently melding Official 9-11 “Truth” followers into the “peace and justice” and impeachment movements.

When the former head of the Star Wars Weapons program (think Directed Energy Weapons) tells us, “It is time for everyone in the peace and justice movement to set aside our differences and work together as a single united force”, this is the cue for all of us who possess functioning brains to look long and hard at the motives and tactics being used to corral well-meaning progressives into one easy-to-lead “movement” with controlled actions and feel-good events orchestrated and backed by none other than the very perps themselves.

For discerning minds that actually appreciate independent thinking and actions, below are two good resources which make us think outside the 9-11 Official Truth Movement box. These articles discuss what Disinformation is – and how it is used regularly in brilliant psy ops efforts, the likes of which most Americans do not even realize exist.

Isn’t it time we started thinking for ourselves? For whatever is being pushed on us by a massive, nationally run and highly organized, controlled effort with a consistent message—and the means to broadcast it into major cities all throughout the world—must be carefully examined. What they are pushing—en masse—must be investigated, even if no reason other than it is quite conspicuously, pervasively, and persuasively being shoved down the international community’s throats for massive, mindless consumption.

The Official 9/11 Truth Movement is a “movement” alright. But if we are truly in search of real, honest-to-goodness Truth—as in what actually, really happened—then we are all going to need to quickly develop inquisitive, questioning minds of our own in order to come up with some legitimate answers.

In other words, we have been given brains and it is imperative we each now begin to think long and hard about these things – all by ourselves. We need to be extremely wary of large, controlled-from-the-top organizations that tell us what to think, do, and say in order to truly restore “peace and justice” to our nation and find ways to remove and “bring to justice” the multitude of sociopaths running the show.

If you are a free and independent thinker, you’ll be interested in reading about Disinformation http://www.drjudywood.com/articles/short/disinfo.html – a collection designed to teach us such strategies that are employed upon us, the general public, in clever psychological campaigns designed to obscure the truth and carefully direct (or rather, mis-direct) our attentions and efforts.

Another must-read piece for those who enjoy thinking these things all the way through is Alternate Propaganda Conspiracy Theory http://www.unexplained-mysteries.com/forum/index.php?showtopic=112107 used by government plants and the media.

My rule of thumb, when reading theories of scientific research, is to ask myself what is everyone in the leadership of Official 9/11 Truth “movement” saying? For it is only after I determine what they want me to think can I then go out and explore all other possible alternative theories. For whatever they want us *most* to believe is the very place we must begin to conduct our own search for other answers.

Those who perpetrated 9-11 have the bucks, the paid personnel, and the driving motive to make absolutely certain the vast majority of Americans never get too close to what actually happened on that horrid September day. And thus, the criminals responsible for the heinous crimes have manufactured an entire “movement” they are now merging with other movements to create a fail proof method of ensuring they are never exposed nor tried in a court of law for perpetrating the attacks, the very justification they created to enable the US to wage wars everlasting upon the rest of the resources-rich world.

As I recall, hippies used to advise us, back in the 60’s and early 70’s, to “Question Authority.” Now, a few decades later and far more “hip” to the masterfully clever methods used by the Empire to control the thinking and actions of Americans around the subject of 9-11, our motto should be, “Question large, organized groups that orchestrate national action campaigns around a pre-set, controlled agenda while discouraging people from thinking for themselves.”

It is imperative we research for ourselves what happened on 9-11. If we are then convinced we have not been told the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but, we must begin to take legal action, as several courageous, private citizens have already done http://drjudywood.com/#challenges.

We do not need an international organization to tell us their version of what went down at the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. What we do need, however, are bright and confident individuals who know the truth is out there – and who realize they have minds capable of figuring out these things for themselves.

What we also need are people who can work independently to find ways to expose controlled opposition groups infinitely more concerned with showing videos and carrying signs than they are in pursuing legal recourse to bring all of the criminals to justice for a multitude of high level crimes, including the committing of war crimes, crimes against humanity, environmental crimes, violations of basic human rights, genocide, and treason.

And that’s just for starters.

In the beginning of our search for “Truth,” the Official 9-11 Truth “Movement” captures the attention, interest, and dedication of so many of us looking for answers. Once we realize their agenda and purpose for their existence, however, it is incumbent upon us to keep looking in new – and perhaps opposite - directions.

While not one to push any particular theory on anyone because it is never one’s place to tell others what to believe, I invite all of you to open your eyes open a bit wider – as I have done – and realize that all that is pushed hard down our throats as the undeniable “Truth” is, quite often, anything but.


http://axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/article_27305.shtml

[christophera]

The 9/11 Truth movement needs to focus more on the twin towers collapse, rather than Building 7 and the Pentagon. After all the twin towers were the main event. The Movement are setting themselfs up for a big fall. Only 7 and the Pentagon are the way in for the new world order.


Who do you think are behind these so called ”truth” movements ? why do you think nothing moves forward ? why nothing happens ? nothing is solved ? I would say that that’s because those who attacked you on 911 are the very same people who are behind all these movements, why ? well; “order out of chaos” remember ?. The Satanists has already started to “shout” anarchy out on the internet and soon you will see the very same being forwarded in main stream mass media ! you just watch and see..

Now...

Remain calm, what the Illuminati fear more than anything else is a calm, cool and collective approach to all this, remember that ! simply put; if there is no chaos there will be no order to restore, it will become more difficult for them.

Bare in mind, that these people are not stupid, far from it folks…far from it.

And NO, there were no planes but two missiles and controlled demolitions, now, people can go around in circles as much as they want too (no offence) but it doesn’t change the facts nor does it solve anything, again; have you seen anything moving forward during these seven years ? no, of course not; its not meant to move forward but meant to rile people up, and that’s it.

mr_pixie, I believe, is correct. The reason for this is that what happened to the Twins defies explanation. We know WTC 7 was a demo. silverstein admitted it and 2 first responders have testified to hearing a countdown.

walle is correct in the first part. So correct I'm going to break that first part down into it's pieces.


Who do you think are behind these so called ”truth” movements ? why do you think nothing moves forward ? why nothing happens ? nothing is solved ? I would say that that’s because those who attacked you on 911 are the very same people who are behind all these movements,

When walle says "movements" he is comprehensive. In other words the perpetrators designed a psyops to sabotage the truth movement many years before 9-11.

This is far more extensive than many would ever believe and the evidence for that statement is found in the fact of the many unrelated and bizarre beliefs relating to 9-11 which can be found. Beliefs and behaviors lacking any real evidence are presented by people who act on obvious obsession and compulsion. They cannot stop and they cannot be dissuaded from their position despite the fact that they have almost no evidence for their position.

Some would say I am the same because I do not change my position, generally. Well, ........ I saw that 1990 documentary, "The Engineering and Construction of the Twin Towers" and I have photographic evidence from 9-11 supporting my contentions about the core structures.

mr_pixie is quite correct in that we should focus on the Twins. I can logically support that because the many "movements" of alternative, bizarre, outrageous, unsupported movments ARE distracting from the Twins. And such would be the precise goal of "movements" as walle describes.

why ? well; “order out of chaos” remember ?. The Satanists has already started to “shout” anarchy out on the internet and soon you will see the very same being forwarded in main stream mass media ! you just watch and see..

And of course in that creation of many movements of the post 9-11 psyops designed years before 9-11, there was the plan to create chaos then scream "chaos, anarchy" which is echoed by the bought and paid for media. All for the purpose of alienating the many intelligent and good Americans that would eagerly take part in truth finding IF they could get properly informed.

As far as missles at the WTC, I think not. There were planes. Maybe not the planes they were supposed to be, but planes. The five thing, yes. Definitely a missile.

So mr_pixie is correct, and all of the movements that walle correctly indicates are there to distract from the Twins. The Twins defy explanation and WTC 7 is already explained.

Accordingly, the Twins should be the focus of the 9-11 truth movement, which is distinct in that it uses evidence and reason. The other movements do not.

[mr_pixie]

Have a read of this !!!!


1) New York City has 11 letters
2) Afghanistan has 11 letters.
3) Ramsin Yuseb (The terrorist who threatened to destroy the Twin Towers in 1993) has 11 letters.
4) George W Bush has 11 letters.


This could be a mere coincidence, but this gets more interesting:

1) New York is the 11th state.
2) The first plane crashing against the Twin Towers was flight number11.
3) Flight 11 was carrying 92 passengers. 9 + 2 = 11
4) Flight 77 which also hit Twin Towers, was carrying 65 passengers. 6+5 = 11
5) The tragedy was on September 11, or 9/11 as it is now known. 9 + 1+ 1 = 11
6) The date is equal to the US emergency services telephone number 911. 9 + 1 + 1 = 11.
Sheer coincidence..?!



Read on and make up your own mind:

1) The total number of victims inside all the
hi-jacked planes was 254. 2 + 5 + 4 = 11.
2) September 11 is day number 254 of the calendar year. Again 2 + 5 + 4 = 11
3) The Madrid bombing took place on 3/11/2004. 3 + 1 + 1 + 2 + 4 = 11.
4) The tragedy of Madrid happened 911 days after the Twin Towers incident.
Now this is where things get totally eerie:
The most recognised symbol for the US, after the Stars & Stripes, is the Eagle. The following verse is taken from the Quran, the
Islamic holy book:
“For it is written that a son of Arabia would awaken a fearsome Eagle. The wrath of the Eagle would be felt throughout the lands of Allah and lo, while some of the people trembled in despair still more rejoiced: for the wrath of the Eagle cleansed the lands ofAllah
and there was peace."
That verse is number 9.11 of the Quran.

[quetzalcoatl]

Interesting synchronicity - especially with the Quran quote.

Is it time for Magog to feuer frei?…:mad:..Does it have to un-fold like this? Wot if there's a super advanced intelligence playing both sides?

[memesina]

verify the verset in quran!!!:confused:

surah 9, verset 11

But, if they repent, establish regular prayers, and practise regular charity, they are your brethren in faith:(thus) do We explain the Signs in detail, for those who understand.

surah 11, verset 9

if We give man a taste of Mercy from Ourselves, and then withdraw it from him, behold! he is in despair and (falls into) blasphemy.

[qasrose]

Have a read of this !!!!


1) New York City has 11 letters
2) Afghanistan has 11 letters.
3) Ramsin Yuseb (The terrorist who threatened to destroy the Twin Towers in 1993) has 11 letters.
4) George W Bush has 11 letters.


This could be a mere coincidence, but this gets more interesting:

1) New York is the 11th state.
2) The first plane crashing against the Twin Towers was flight number11.
3) Flight 11 was carrying 92 passengers. 9 + 2 = 11
4) Flight 77 which also hit Twin Towers, was carrying 65 passengers. 6+5 = 11
5) The tragedy was on September 11, or 9/11 as it is now known. 9 + 1+ 1 = 11
6) The date is equal to the US emergency services telephone number 911. 9 + 1 + 1 = 11.
Sheer coincidence..?!



Read on and make up your own mind:

1) The total number of victims inside all the
hi-jacked planes was 254. 2 + 5 + 4 = 11.
2) September 11 is day number 254 of the calendar year. Again 2 + 5 + 4 = 11
3) The Madrid bombing took place on 3/11/2004. 3 + 1 + 1 + 2 + 4 = 11.
4) The tragedy of Madrid happened 911 days after the Twin Towers incident.
Now this is where things get totally eerie:
The most recognised symbol for the US, after the Stars & Stripes, is the Eagle. The following verse is taken from the Quran, the
Islamic holy book:
“For it is written that a son of Arabia would awaken a fearsome Eagle. The wrath of the Eagle would be felt throughout the lands of Allah and lo, while some of the people trembled in despair still more rejoiced: for the wrath of the Eagle cleansed the lands ofAllah
and there was peace."
That verse is number 9.11 of the Quran.

This is old news, as I've seen this before.

[augur]

A while after 9/11, an e-mail was circulated with these exact claims in it.

The Q'uran verse is false.

Most of the '11' stuff is actually true.

The email also contained a bit about the flight number of the first plane to hit the towers being 'Q33 NYC' (false), and showed that these characters converted to the 'wingdings' font came out looking like a plane, two towers, a hexagram, a skull & bones, and a thumbs up.

Interestingly, if I remember correctly, the email contradicted itself by using 'Flight 11' (the real flight number) in the '11 coincidences' section, then at the end claimed that the flight number was 'Q33 NYC'. Disinfo, anyone?

[stelios]

Who do you think are behind these so called ”truth” movements ? why do you think nothing moves forward ? why nothing happens ? nothing is solved ? I would say that that’s because those who attacked you on 911 are the very same people who are behind all these movements,.

It has been aparant to myself and many others that the people in charge are usually doing their level best to prevent ANY progress and have so far successfully blocked it. Movements are usually run by appointed, unelected security services plants. MI5 or Mossad. Whose sole purpose is preventing the message from making it into the mainstream.
I am ofcourse refering to
http://911truthcampaign.net/
and
http://www.julyseventh.co.uk/

[christophera]

The 9/11 Truth movement needs to focus more on the twin towers collapse, rather than Building 7 and the Pentagon. After all the twin towers were the main event. The Movement are setting themselfs up foer a big fall. Only 7 and the Pentagon are the way in for the new world order.

EXCELLENT logic and focus.

If 7's demise was useful, there would have been an investigation already because emergency responders have testified publically that there was a countdown, but no one died. Nearly 3,000 died in the Twins.

The pentagon has scads of mind controlled military witnesses programmed to hallucinate all sorts of different planes whack the building.

http://algoxy.com/psych/psyimages/human121.jpg

The event at the WTC with the twins is the key to our future.

[christophera]

After all the planes hitting the towers were the main event.

Big error.


A million tons of debris hitting the ground at free fall, twice, identically, is MUCH bigger.

[dangermouse]

Big error.


A million tons of debris hitting the ground at free fall, twice, identically, is MUCH bigger.

i agree

[christophera]

i agree

Okay, ......... how do we use our agreement? What is a meaningful way for reasonable people to object to nonsensical free speech that also happens to be endangering us all because of medias neglect to this matter and creating focus in the way it has been, with TV, for the last 50 years?

[christophera]

Okay, ......... how do we use our agreement? What is a meaningful way for reasonable people to object to nonsensical free speech that also happens to be endangering us all because of medias neglect to this matter and creating focus in the way it has been, with TV, for the last 50 years?

My recomendations to the peace movement in 2003 was that absolute factors that indicate governmental lawlessness, neglect or malfeasance be presented to media as "need to know" items for the public. When they don't air the story, sue them, with about 50 plaintiffs in each state they fail to observe and honor the public trust.

There weer a number of takers, like 5 or so. I indicated we needed larger numbers and asked them to work with me in outreach, they all fell away.

With 50 plaintiffs, $50 apiece at least makes a retainer and the shear numbers seeking redress commands credibility for attorneys, making it much harder for them to reject the proposal of suit.

But time has passed, people are much more fractured by ploitical and economic issues, making it that much more difficult in all ways.

[kale]

Big error.


A million tons of debris hitting the ground at free fall, twice, identically, is MUCH bigger.



Thats a very singular view, the whole day was the main event in New York.

From the moment *insert what hit towers here* till they fell, and the other two so called crashes --> the whole thing was a big show.

Because its thought by the general public that planes did hit, it seems the passengers that were on the planes have somehwat been forgotern. Perhaps even if there was one survivour(which is probably highly unlikely), that would be a step in the right direction.

But hey, where does one start trying to gain information as to where and what happened to them? Its virtually impossible.