Ego Death

[seamus]

Dear Icke fans (and hecklers),
Recently on another forum more geared toward entheogenscalled "The Nook" I encountered a thread on "Ego Death". Now this was of particular interest to me as my entire adult life has been pretty much centered on searching for a sane approach to the subject. Others on this forum have had close brushes with it and have gone away scarred. I am included in this number.
In 1989, I had several near-ego-death experiences. Ego death is entirely distinct from physical death, as this is something that can happen while you are still in your body and you live to tell about it (generally, I presume). I was too immature to know the true strength of the soul and spirit, and though I believed in their immortality, I was not sufficiently persuaded to take my chances. If you have questions about the nature of ego death, please see http://www.egodeath.com/egodeath.htm (http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=entheogen) for more information.
In my youth (I was 19 at the time of most of the incidents) I didn't trust in the justice of the universe, so I was hindered from becoming pure love (not that that's all I have in my personality right now), without thought of "what about me?". ("Sign says 'Stay away fools' 'cause love rules at the love shack", as the old song says). One will not be able to experience the transcendent bliss of that white or golden light (actually my own experience was different from the "usual") unless one is willing to give it ALL (for me this required trust in the justice inherent in the universe).
So while in an altered state of consciousness achieved through the use of a totally legal plant (pm me if you want to know what it was), I finally was able to achieve my dream of seeing the other side of that mountain. Thanks to some friends who have been very supportive of me both here(thanks, you know who you are) and elsewhere, I broke away from the addictive, disempowering cult of Yahwism several months ago. This was a very important step, as it symbolized my defiant stand for truth in the face of a threat of retribution.
As I abandoned my ego amid a barrage of thoughts like "no you can't do that, that's evil", "oh you're being so selfish!" and "no, you'll die for real!", I felt a wave of love break over me. Then a rapid succession of personalities came upon me, each yielding to the next like the layers of an onion, with the eventual result that I recognized that I have many masks I can wear (personalities) but none of them is the real me. My core values stayed the same, and that is who I really am. I experienced the "real me" and I can say with all confidence that the real me is rather boring by earthly standards.;) But that's okay, since we aren't on this planet to be the real us, anyway. We're all here to play a part in a huge drama, and I am so favored to have the awake and aware part that I have been given.
I believe (and always have since I first brushed with it) ego death to be necessary for those who wish to evolve beyond what the human race is today, which is why I was so hot on it for almost 20 years. If I had known earlier what I know now I would have been able to do this much sooner, saving myself years upon years of grief. However I also believe that everything happens for a reason, and that this reason has been fulfilled. I have proven that even abused people, who have had their childhood innocence stripped from them, and their families shattered, can choose the path of compassion rather than revenge or heartlessness. However, the human race has consistently chosen the latter two options when faced with hard life situations. Thus my attempt to instruct by example is concluded with this lifetime. I don't know how many times I have been here, but it's been enough to get a belly full of the inhumanity of man, both to beasts and to other men, and especially more evolved beings, who incidentally always expose the truth, that humans love to see pain rather than joy. If this is not true of you, congratulations, you have evolved beyond humanity and their loathsome collective consciousness. If it is, I pity you; you'll get no more compassion from me. Nature trumps nurture after all.

Peace, Love and Vegetable Rights,

s

edit: [URL]http://csp.org/nicholas/A5.html has in it a nice description of the "personality succession" I mentioned.

[anoninnyc]

beautiful. but how do you stay there? it is easy to revert back to old thought patterns, no?

[edelweiss pirate]

Great stuff...

Other names for this ego death are the Holy Grail, Enlightenment, illumination and schizophrenia...

I always advise people to be very wary of it... I have learnt a great deal from it and am glad I've experienced it... but it took a miracle and the sun itself to get me out of it....

Not that I'm special, but you have to be to survive it, or have the God's smiling on you.

But I think it's a damn risky road.... I think it takes a miracle to be one of those with the strength to be reborn the Pheonix.... How many perish into dangerous and ultimately deadly delusions bears investigation....

I'll PM you about that herb....

[anoninnyc]

is this the same as a kundalini awakening?

[eternal_spirit]

The ego get's a bad deal in the so called spiritual ones beliefs.

The ego isn't all bad, it is what drives you to suceed, have confidence, determination and is part of you're natural desires as a human. It's connected to the will which is what these spiritual gurus and teachings want to supress so they can have their will dictate to you're own will which is YOU.

You choose....... use you're own mind to improve yourself or have an other dictate to you what's wrong with you, so they can use their will and ego to control you by promising you a better you.

[eternal_spirit]

Some texts call the soul the super ego, it seems like a contradiction to me.

[lifeofbrian]

What a great topic well worthy of highlighting.

Depending on the subjective experiences we might have different interpretations regarding how "ego death" manifests and is survived most importantly - especially if there are no records within a society of how it develops and should be handled preferably by people with the same experience.

A desire for "ego death" comes from the ego itself. Therefore no such "search" will result in the genuine experience (as triggered from the soul-level when the person is deemed ready to make the leap).

What happens is that it feels as if the veils of "reality" simply "fall away". It can resemble vertigo but as if on every level. The five senses do not seem to work and neither does the rational mind nor the ability to enjoy imagination. It is a loss of the "self" as we have been identified by ourselves and those close to us.

As a natural reaction in an effort to survive a person will automatically project the "falling away" within to the outer world. Maybe begin to think the world is ending. Seeing signs everywhere of doom and demons - or even begin to think he/she is "Jesus" or "Neo" :)

Not many "make it" all the way. Some are labelled mentally unstable - which is correct in a sense btw - and others salvage their ego and become preachers warning the world of the doom and demons they have experienced within.

Another term for the falling away of the veil - or "ego death" - is "the shaman's illness". Within cultures where this is considered natural for healers and a process of spiritual growth, the experience can leave the healer incredibly strong within and able to tap into abilities seemingly out of this world - unharmed by drugs and intervention by modern medicine if sheltered by people in the know during the transition.

"Ego death" is dangerous due to the ignorance surrounding this phenomena - and the fear from within people crossing the line. Due to the danger involved the ego - and the body - has some tricks up its sleeve if people attempt to "flee reality as we know it". Depressions, panic attacks, sudden interest in recreational drugs, interest in porn, intense focus politically, etc. This is because a healthy ego is a good thing. The ego knows we must be willing to face what is - before we can let go of it. Until we can function in the world with ego - we have not "spiritually graduated" and to be trusted with an even more difficult task and way of life.

Spiritual growth is a process and some times a long one. But there is no way to cheat.

[seamus]

beautiful. but how do you stay there? it is easy to revert back to old thought patterns, no?
The great breakthrough lies not in changing the basic function of your mind permanently, but in disabusing oneself of the illusion that the ME is the one driving the train that you call your life. The ME is still there, and is quite useful for social interaction. It would be a drag just to chill out in silent bliss all day and all night. I mean, most of us have to earn a living somehow. :D Anyway, that's a good question. I hope my answer helps. I encourage you to explore egodeath.com. I have just discovered it and it's a nice resource.

Peace and love and the odd bifurcated personality...

s

[seamus]

Great stuff...

Other names for this ego death are the Holy Grail, Enlightenment, illumination and schizophrenia...


whoa, horsie! I take issue with that last one. Ego death is not about destroying the ego, but about destroying it's addictive grasp on you. It's really more of a "letting go" than an irretrievable death/loss experience. I did not know that until I went through it! The only thing I lost was an addiction to ME. I have been down that Schizophrenia road before, as you probably remember from our emails, but this is very, very different. Because I approached it without fear this time, I was able to go through that "black door". I AM a different person now than I was 18 years ago, or even 9 years ago, when I last attempted before this latest successful trial.

I always advise people to be very wary of it... I have learnt a great deal from it and am glad I've experienced it... but it took a miracle and the sun itself to get me out of it....
That is very very good advice. I would not recommend trying this to anyone who is feeling "desperate" or who is "seeking for God". Because you won't find God. You will find that there is no God (i.e. that "god" is not the perfect creator of everything), but that the universe itself is sentient, and much MUCH bigger than anything you can conceive of. Touching the immensity of the universe is enough to drive someone mad, if he's not aware of the facts beforehand. I was certifiable for about 4 months back in '89, but pulled out of it with the help of good old mom and a kick in the pants.

Not that I'm special, but you have to be to survive it, or have the God's smiling on you. Sure you're special! You are totally unique. And I'm not blowing sunshine up your arse. Everyone who has experienced trauma and chose to learn from it instead of being embittered, is very, very special.

But I think it's a damn risky road.... I think it takes a miracle to be one of those with the strength to be reborn the Pheonix.... How many perish into dangerous and ultimately deadly delusions bears investigation....

I'll PM you about that herb....

I think the ones who perish are those who are foolhardy. Those who are reckless. Or perhaps, just maybe, some are "manipulated" into it. But I don't believe that anything can happen to us that is not balanced by the law of one. In other words, you can't experience anything that will not nudge you toward evolution. If you rebel against that loving urge, it's your own fault.

Peace, Love, yada yada...

s

[seamus]

The ego get's a bad deal in the so called spiritual ones beliefs.

The ego isn't all bad, it is what drives you to suceed, have confidence, determination and is part of you're natural desires as a human. It's connected to the will which is what these spiritual gurus and teachings want to supress so they can have their will dictate to you're own will which is YOU.

You choose....... use you're own mind to improve yourself or have an other dictate to you what's wrong with you, so they can use their will and ego to control you by promising you a better you.
What IS bad is the addiction to the illusion that your ego IS the real you, and that you have total free will. Really our will is only useful to decide how we will react to our situations. You are in implicit collusion with the will of the universe, and when you approach ego death, this becomes apparent. This is what drives some people mad, partly because the universe deals with us as individuals (if we are on the road of evolution). It gives the impression that we are ALL ALONE in the world, and that can lead to all kinds of disturbing thoughts, not the least of which is 'this is hell, and I have been sent here for something bad I did'. But if you accept that you are unique, and therefore alone by definition, it's not nearly so scary. We're alone, but we're alone together. I will never be you nor will you be me. So we can share a lot, but we aren't the same. Each is a species unto himself. (a French friend used to call me "un drôle d'espèce" :D )
As far as the REAL you is concerned, you have worn so many masks that you would be baffled to see them all. I was baffled, and I'm sure I didn't get to see all of mine :) But be assured, your ME is not YOU. :p

Oh yeah, almost forgot. You'll know when you are getting close to ego death when it seems that every song you hear on the radio is singing to or about you. It might happen with TV too, but I hate TV and try to stay away from it. If you are disturbed by this synchronicity, it indicates that you aren't ready.


Love, Peace, and electric elephant burgers...

s

[seamus]

Damn, that's a great post! When did you show up to the party?
What a great topic well worthy of highlighting.

Depending on the subjective experiences we might have different interpretations regarding how "ego death" manifests and is survived most importantly - especially if there are no records within a society of how it develops and should be handled preferably by people with the same experience. there are clues and hints in our cultures. I can think of a dozen rock and roll songs off the top of my head that deal with this issue either directly or obliquely ("she's not there" comes to mind immediately)

A desire for "ego death" comes from the ego itself. Therefore no such "search" will result in the genuine experience (as triggered from the soul-level when the person is deemed ready to make the leap).
That is very interesting. Are you saying that the ego knows its own place in the development of its host spirit-being? You say "deemed". Deemed by whom?

What happens is that it feels as if the veils of "reality" simply "fall away". It can resemble vertigo but as if on every level. The five senses do not seem to work and neither does the rational mind nor the ability to enjoy imagination. It is a loss of the "self" as we have been identified by ourselves and those close to us. I like the way the fellow on egodeath.com describes it. He calls it a loosening of ego's grasp on us. I don't know about this "loss", as it is impossible to erase history.

As a natural reaction in an effort to survive a person will automatically project the "falling away" within to the outer world. Maybe begin to think the world is ending. Seeing signs everywhere of doom and demons - or even begin to think he/she is "Jesus" or "Neo" :) This is what happened to me the first dozen times I tried it. It's because I was wanting to escape my life. This time, I am different in that I am embracing my life and my destiny, and have no attachment to any particular eventuality. Even if I discovered that I was the Antichrist, I would embrace that. After all, how could I be such a coward as to continue to shrink back from who I am?

Not many "make it" all the way. Some are labelled mentally unstable - which is correct in a sense btw - and others salvage their ego and become preachers warning the world of the doom and demons they have experienced within. you sound like someone who has gone through all this :) Good on you that you survived and got your head screwed on straight! I was a-preaching for about 15 years. Bah, humbug. Specious clatrap, that christ stuff is.

Another term for the falling away of the veil - or "ego death" - is "the shaman's illness". Within cultures where this is considered natural for healers and a process of spiritual growth, the experience can leave the healer incredibly strong within and able to tap into abilities seemingly out of this world - unharmed by drugs and intervention by modern medicine if sheltered by people in the know during the transition. I personally cannot conceive of someone succeeding in their first attempt at ego death except by use of "heroic doses" (a la Terence McKenna) or with lots and lots of dabbling beforehand, and coaching. Heroic doses are probably the easier route, but I am glad that I did it the hard way. I failed a bunch of times, but I know I am strong now.

"Ego death" is dangerous due to the ignorance surrounding this phenomena - and the fear from within people crossing the line. Due to the danger involved the ego - and the body - has some tricks up its sleeve if people attempt to "flee reality as we know it". Here is the rub. Ego death can not be used as an "escape" from one's life situation, because that is addictive behavior, and addictive behavior cannot be used to get rid of an addiction (the addiction to the illusion of ME being so important)Depressions, panic attacks, sudden interest in recreational drugs, interest in porn, intense focus politically, etc. This is because a healthy ego is a good thing. The ego knows we must be willing to face what is - before we can let go of it. Until we can function in the world with ego - we have not "spiritually graduated" and to be trusted with an even more difficult task and way of life. Ooh, I want to know what you mean by that last bit!


Spiritual growth is a process and some times a long one. But there is no way to cheat.
amen brother! Only those who love the truth more than their own lives can find it. This is being "willing to face what is". Equanimity and nonattachment. See, Buddha was right all along! But the dissolution thing must have been added later by dogmatists. Buddhism coupled with a concept of the transcendence of a real inner soul would have been the world's leading religion. But that nihilism thing is too much of a downer. But what is, is! Regardless of how appealing or nonappealing. I found my reality to be one of evolution. Better and better and nicer and nicer and more love and friendship, between mutually respecting and encouraging beings.

Some wonder why I am so down on humanity sometimes. This is why. Better, more beautiful, more kind, more friendly; these do not compute for the human collective mind. It's only the collective I'm down on. It's pure shit. Great fertilizer, but not what you want to make friends with.

Peace and love

s

P.S. It's okay to have multiple personalities, as long as they are well-aquainted and friends with each other :)

[edelweiss pirate]

whoa, horsie! I take issue with that last one. Ego death is not about destroying the ego, but about destroying it's addictive grasp on you. It's really more of a "letting go" than an irretrievable death/loss experience. I did not know that until I went through it! The only thing I lost was an addiction to ME. I have been down that Schizophrenia road before, as you probably remember from our emails, but this is very, very different. Because I approached it without fear this time, I was able to go through that "black door". I AM a different person now than I was 18 years ago, or even 9 years ago, when I last attempted before this latest successful trial

s
You're mistaken. It's not about taking pshcyoactive drugs then coming back from the trip.

The procedure I was involved in induced a permanent state akin to being on LSD... no drugs involved. Permanent change of brain chemistry. Schizophrenia.

It's not a 'trip' man..

You think you've got enlightenment through drugs?

Nahhh... just a glimpse.

[john white]

I fully endorse giving the ego a damn good kicking: slave not master!

Using Ickes "computer" analogy, the ego is a bit like windows XP

Nice one Seamus: always respect for a "man":) whose been there

Ego death is the shift from the belief one is a human being to the knowledge one is being human

[edelweiss pirate]

Hang on...

John White your ego is alive and well as is mine and most people's here...

So what are we advocating exactly?

A short 'taster' of ego death or ego death as a permanent state?
Tell me more John....

I assume you are not talking about the latter so then how do we assure that the state is controlled and momentary and that we can escape from it?

There has to be real fear and terror involved. You can't just coax your ego into shutting down. It has to be a near death experience. Has to be.

It's not something you yourself can control either otherwise the ego is automatically involved.


Also my concern is that ego death for the whole population is what 'they' want, that's what terrorism is really about although it's not working.

They want a shift in consciousness, a transformed human race. A race of schizophrenics living without the shield of their ego at the mercy of their suggestions.

Complete control of body and soul.

[edelweiss pirate]

Ego death is the shift from the belief one is a human being to the knowledge one is being human

That is a pithy and amusing jeu de mots John..

But seriously, it sounds good on paper but in reality?

Actually realising that we are not really what we think we are but that we are souls with limitless potential...

But... we're still stuck here, in a human body.

John you love Dr Who as much as me.... hasn't the Cybermen/Daleks allegory ocurred to you? Human souls devoid of emotion trapped in a 'suit'.

How can you feel emotion with no ego? How can you in fact live on earth with no emotion, interact with people? All we are is in our Egos John.

The reason the illuminati are so whacked is because they have exercised these trancendental techniques, you saw Synergy's post the other day.. 'The Holy grail' and all that, ego death and what not.. and at the bottom of the page: links to masons and even satanism!?

You don't have to kill yourself in order to be a good person...

Save ego death until we die...

[john white]

Whoa up there a minute pirate, I appreciate you getting up a head of steam, but I prefer a walking pace. Lets go from the top:

John White your ego is alive and well as is mine and most people's here...

So what are we advocating exactly?

Its that word "death", Isn't it? Its taken as meaning "ending" but really it only ever means "change". And "ego Death" is also known as "the little death"; so what that’s really saying is "the little change". Ego death is not the death of self (that would be the "big death" or the "big change") but a change in relationship with the self (or rather, of the self)..and all change is perception, so its really "the little change in perception of the self"



A short 'taster' of ego death or ego death as a permanent state?
Tell me more John....

It can be both. Altered states of consciousness can trigger temporary shifts: not just drug experiences, though again that’s what altered state is commonly a euphemism of, but life events that alter ones relationship with the world: birth, death, epiphany. Lots of little shifts add up to one big one over time: or it can be proper WHAM! road-to-Damascus type stuff

I assume you are not talking about the latter so then how do we assure that the state is controlled and momentary and that we can escape from it?

Life is a condition we all escape from: so it seems to me you are more asking: how can I know that expending my perception beyond life doesn’t stop my contracting my perception back into life: in other words, can I force my awareness back into thinking the temporary condition (life) is the natural and enduring one? ultimately this is saying: If I take the risk of changing, do I lose what I had before? The answer though is a tough one: the one thing you are guaranteed to lose is what you had before, even if you do nothing and resist change all through life: its a lease, not freehold. Yet if one does not develop ones consciousness, one gains nothing from the experience of life either. And one cannot develop ones consciousness past a certain point without ego-death… the change of perception of who/what one is

There has to be real fear and terror involved. You can't just coax your ego into shutting down. It has to be a near death experience. Has to be.

That’s just "you" talking Edelweiss. Oh it can be fear and terror, your not wrong there, but its only your perception telling you it has to be. What about Love? What about Laughter? But to see those routes one has to choose to see them: and if we tell ourselves "it cannot be": it cannot be. Self fulfilling prophecy there. but what ever pathway "one" walks, it all comes down to:

Self Liberation through seeing with Naked Awareness

It's not something you yourself can control either otherwise the ego is automatically involved.

Life is filled with the illusions of control: we are passengers in the body as much as pilots. but there is control which is not illusion, and it is called choice: also known as free will. Whilst we may not be able to control all that we experience, we can always choose how we relate to it. And its choice on that level that opens the doors

Also my concern is that ego death for the whole population is what 'they' want, that's what terrorism is really about although it's not working.

They want a shift in consciousness, a transformed human race. A race of schizophrenics living without the shield of their ego at the mercy of their suggestions.

Complete control of body and soul.

Well that’s some fear of your own there... yet I suspect even "they" do not know what "they" want, and wouldn’t be buggering around being "them" if they did: there are far more worthy things to do, like enjoy growing runner beans. However, on balance I would have to say my perception of matter is somewhat different. Its is the robotisation of humanity that is required/advanced: not stripping people of their ego's but trapping them in them.

We are going to have to consider: "what is the ego?": now in my understanding the ego is an energetic form that carries the vibrationary energy of all the experiences we have and our relationship to those experiences: it is, in fact, a reaction to the choices we have made: most especially the balance of the choices we have chosen to make, and believe

"I am clever" "I am thick" "I am valuable" "I am worthless" "I'm attractive "I'm ugly" "there is a god and I must love him" "there is a god and I must fear him" "there is no god, I am alone" "mankind is divine" "mankind is animal" "money is everything" "money is nothing" (and also "I am male" "I am female") + a whole lot more

Now when our ego rules us, we believe that the ego is us "who am I without my thoughts? Who am I without my emotions?"... and if we are successfully hypnotised, we do not know: then we have no choice but to identify ourselves AS our thoughts and emotions, and we are then defined solely by the input of the five senses and our animal (spacesuit factory default) responses: that’s the reptilian brain of course

Now I submit that that is where "they" far prefer us to be

So a question for you Edelweiss: are you the experiences, or the experiencor?

Ego death is the shift from the belief one is a human being to the knowledge one is being human

That is a pithy and amusing jeu de mots John..

But seriously, it sounds good on paper but in reality?

Well one does try: pithy or profound is in the eye of the beholder of course, and I couldn’t make a claim one way or 'tother. I do like to play with words of course

Actually realising that we are not really what we think we are but that we are souls with limitless potential...

Yep, that’s the ticket

But... we're still stuck here, in a human body.

That's not a downside, but an opportunity

John you love Dr Who as much as me.... hasn't the Cybermen/Daleks allegory ocurred to you? Human souls devoid of emotion trapped in a 'suit'.

How can you feel emotion with no ego? How can you in fact live on earth with no emotion, interact with people? All we are is in our Egos John.

Now we are at the heart of it: how can we feel emotion without an ego?

You see, emotion itself is not the genuine article: it is feedback, a copy: feeling is the response to the choice of the emotion: the emotion does not create the feeling: the choice creates the feeling. We don’t need elctro-chemical biofeedback in order to feel: we are consciousness, connected to everything. it is the soul, not the ego, that feels, because it is the soul that is immortal and genuine. Daleks and Cybermen are creatures that became trapped in their egos: both motivated to do so, btw, by Fear: Daleks the fear of not being supreme, Cybermen the Fear of weakness, pain and death. One could say the Doctor opposes them because the Doctor knows that it is Fear that is the enemy...and he is not prepared to let them impose their fear on the rest of Life: you now how passionate he gets about that!

The reason the illuminati are so whacked is because they have exercised these trancendental techniques, you saw Synergy's post the other day.. 'The Holy grail' and all that, ego death and what not.. and at the bottom of the page: links to masons and even satanism!?

That’s certainly a valid perception of one reason why "they" are so whacked: but one should resist viewing "them" as one mass: there are good un's and bad un's and who is who changes over the course of their lives. The error of the illuminati, ultimately, is the error of pride: trying to work it all out with finite mind instead of just connecting to the creator and tuning in (course that’s ego for you and why some of them try to think their way into ego death. Silly buggers: simple surrender is to complicated for them)

You don't have to kill yourself in order to be a good person...

Indeed not

Save ego death until we die...

Save the little change until the big change? Well that’s a choice... but it probably means a trip round the wheel again

In summary:

The ego is indeed still useful and is required all through life: but ego-death is not per se talking about destroying the ego, but altering the souls realtionship to it, as we hopefully have seen.

Of course there is another path of ego death which is the deliberate and purposeful surrender of ego to higher authority, to the point where the self is surrended and becomes that higher authority... few have ever walked that path, but they have always made a jolly big impression... Abraham, Jesus, Mohammed... say the legends

[edelweiss pirate]

How about the fact that the secret societies use these techniques and look at the state of those guys...

Emotions originate in the glandular system or chakras because they are chemical in origin. The glands or chakras are as they term it 'opened' but in my view 'bypassed' is a less ambiguous term.

For me the enlightenment is the 'upgrade' that almost every bad guy in the first two series of Dr Who tries to be pushing.

There is no coincidence that in some episodes the bad guys refer to each other as 'brothers' or 'family'..

The Empreror Dalek refers to his 'Brethren' and also says how Earth will become their 'Temple'.

The parallels between this and masonry's aims are clear.

The creator of Dr Who is trying to tell us something.

Daleks and Cybermen are just another recycling of the zombie and vampire archetype which is the result of secret society 'illumination' work...

There are loads of references to secret societies on Dr Who.. Rose even undergoes 'illumination' at the end of series 1... Best damn bit in the whole run:


The Doctor: What have you done?
Rose Tyler: I looked into the TARDIS and the TARDIS looked into me.
The Doctor: You looked into the time vortex, Rose, nobody is supposed to see that!
Emperor Dalek: This is the abomination!
Dalek: Exterminate!
[Dalek shoots at her with its laser, but Rose lifts up her hand and stops it, reversing it back into the Dalek, the Doctor looks on in surprise]
Rose Tyler: I am the Bad Wolf. I create myself. I take the words...
[Rose lifts her hand and takes the words from the Bad Wolf Corporation sign]
Rose Tyler: ...I scatter them, in time and space.
[the words float off away from them]
Rose Tyler: A message, to lead myself here.
The Doctor: Rose, you've got to stop this, you've got to stop this now! You've the entire vortex running through you're head, you're gonna burn!
Rose Tyler: I want you safe, my Doctor. Protected from the false God.
Emperor Dalek: You cannot hurt me, I am immortal.
Rose Tyler: You are tiny. I can see the whole of time and space, every single atom of your existence, and I divide them.
[Rose lifts her hand again, the Dalek that tried to shoot her disappears in an explosion of golden dust]
Rose Tyler: Everything must come to dust. All things, everything dies.

Rose Tyler: The time war ends.
Emperor Dalek: I will not die! I cannot diieee!
[we see Rose's eyes light up, and the Dalek Emperor and his entire fleet disappear in an explosion of golden dust]
The Doctor: Rose, you've done it, now stop.
[Rose stares straight ahead]
The Doctor: Just let go.
Rose Tyler: How can I let go of this? I bring life.
[we see Jack start breathing again and open his eyes]
The Doctor: But this is wrong! You can't control life and death!
Rose Tyler: But I can. The sun and the moon, the day and night... but why do they hurt?
[she is crying]
The Doctor: The power's gonna kill you and it's my fault!
Rose Tyler: I can see everything... all that is... all that was... all that ever could be.
The Doctor: [stands up] But that's what *I* see. All the time. And doesn't it drive you mad?
Rose Tyler: [Rose nods, barely able to speak] My head...
The Doctor: Come here.
Rose Tyler: ...is killing me.
The Doctor: I think you need a Doctor.
[He leans down and kisses her, and the golden light transfers from her to him through their lips]
She has incredible power but the Dr makes clear that she can't handle that kind of power "You're gonna burn"... he says....


This stuff is really 'du jour' at the moment. So many films discuss the illuminated state of mind. Eternal Sunshine of the spotless mind, The Matrix (welcome to the desert of the real) and A Scanner Darkly to name but a few.

There's even a 'health warning' at the end from Philip K Dick himself.....


The conclusions are ambiguous to say the least.


That’s certainly a valid perception of one reason why "they" are so whacked: but one should resist viewing "them" as one mass: there are good un's and bad un's and who is who changes over the course of their lives. The error of the illuminati, ultimately, is the error of pride: trying to work it all out with finite mind instead of just connecting to the creator and tuning in (course that’s ego for you and why some of them try to think their way into ego death. Silly buggers: simple surrender is to complicated for them)


They do 'ego-death' by the age old Egyptian method...
In my exp you can't do ego death to your self, you have to be pushed to it... The masons actually have access to totality (ie their own subconscious minds) the problem is what is in that mind? Within infinite potential there is also infinite horror... The same way people think spiritual always means good. It doesn't, spiritual people can be completely evil too.


Emperor Dalek: We waited here in the dark space; quietly infiltrating the systems of Earth. Harvesting the waste of humanity. The prisoners, the refugees, the dispossessed, they all came to us. They were pulped, sifted, purged. The seed of the human race is perverted, only one cell in a billion was fit to be nurtured.
The Doctor: So you made an army of Daleks out of the dead.
Rose Tyler: That makes them, half human.
Emperor Dalek: [shouts] Those words are blasphemy!
Dalek: Do not blaspheme! Do not blaspheme! Do not Blaspheme!
Emperor Dalek: Everything human has been purged. I have cultivated pure and blessed Dalek.
The Doctor: Since when did the Daleks have a concept of blasphemy?

[john white]

Well OK, yes I do understand what your saying to me, and I understand the difficulty

Lets approach this in a different way

I do a reasonable amount of debate with athiests: not too much because there's a limit to the usefullness of too much discussion with any rigid mindset, and some athiests are very rigid indeed (another of lifes ironies is that dogmatic athiests and dogmatic fundamentalists read scripture in the same way, merely from opposite polarities)

Amongst the current "university" age set, Dawkins ideas have been quite widely adopted. People trained to think in polarised absolutes by the education system look at the world and they see Christians and Muslims calling for each others destruction and see "See! Look at Religion! It is a plague of unreason and a curse upon the world. And becuase Religion has failed, there cannot be a God". Classic mistaking of the map for the territory, but there you go.

Now you and I know that these guys arn't understanding the original message (the original gnosis) upon which those religions are founded: they are looking at the result of centuries of buggering about and manipulation by the mystery schools deliberately to prevent people from being genuinely God conscious. The NWO would definately be screwed if they were! "You are our Slaves" "Fuck that matey, I am a child of the divine creator, go and work for a living you foul little parasite" (kinda thing)

Therefore, as we would apply caution in dismising God just becuase of what man has been manipulated into making of religion, so we should be cautious about dismissing other spiritual truth just becuase of the use (and misuse) those same secret socities have made of that

Its all very complex: and in true quantum style,the more we look the more complex it becomes... until it doesnt.. and then it becomes very very simple

Seek with a pure heart and you will find: Love God and know Gods Love in return.

If we hold to our own hearts and do not allow our attention be drawn into follies and labyrinths, we have nothing to fear: and "ego death" takes care of itself

I honestly consider that all the "complexity" of the esoteric world is quite simply to stop us realising how simple and direct the whole thing is

At least: thats my experiance

I shall have to leave this reply there for want of time, but I'm sure we shall chat more: I'd like to see what others are making of this thread too

[tru3]

whoa, horsie! I take issue with that last one. Ego death is not about destroying the ego, but about destroying it's addictive grasp on you. It's really more of a "letting go" than an irretrievable death/loss experience. I did not know that until I went through it! The only thing I lost was an addiction to ME. I have been down that Schizophrenia road before, as you probably remember from our emails, but this is very, very different. Because I approached it without fear this time, I was able to go through that "black door". I AM a different person now than I was 18 years ago, or even 9 years ago, when I last attempted before this latest successful trial.

thanks for sharing your experiences, seamus. i'm going through kind of the same thing as you've described. it's not about surrendering anything to anyone, and advice, any belief. only from the Heart. a path must have heart. dive past the ego, let the ego do what it will, tempered with reason and compassion, and drop down into Self. just see it. see it. all of it, exactly as life presents itself in this moment. if you see, you will look.

That is very very good advice. I would not recommend trying this to anyone who is feeling "desperate" or who is "seeking for God". Because you won't find God. You will find that there is no God (i.e. that "god" is not the perfect creator of everything), but that the universe itself is sentient, and much MUCH bigger than anything you can conceive of. Touching the immensity of the universe is enough to drive someone mad, if he's not aware of the facts beforehand. I was certifiable for about 4 months back in '89, but pulled out of it with the help of good old mom and a kick in the pants.
Sure you're special! You are totally unique. And I'm not blowing sunshine up your arse. Everyone who has experienced trauma and chose to learn from it instead of being embittered, is very, very special.

for me, it's all about forgiveness. letting down the emotional and mental armour. drop into acceptance of life, of the relationships i was born into. healing these relationships, imho, is the most important 'work' we do here. to me, it's about breaking generational addictions and dysfunctional patterns. though many things still remain a mystery, and through it all runs an Awareness, everpresent and full.

I think the ones who perish are those who are foolhardy. Those who are reckless. Or perhaps, just maybe, some are "manipulated" into it. But I don't believe that anything can happen to us that is not balanced by the law of one. In other words, you can't experience anything that will not nudge you toward evolution. If you rebel against that loving urge, it's your own fault.

Peace, Love, yada yada...

s

it appears to me you fell through one of those "trap doors", seamus.

let me ask you a question: didn't this "ego drop" (i like that better than death, as in drop in intensity and frequency) feel like you were looking at a straw man? in my case, they were corporate beliefs rather than religion-- even though it amounts to the same stinking mess! :D

i saw this movie last night, called "the fever", with vanessa redgrave. stunning, really. i highly recommend it. it's on dish this month.

[the festival spirit]

almost everything has been said that is relevent, I need not add my opinion, but I will

FANTASTIC thread, seamus nice one, I wonder how many people will actually read it. At the time of writing it hasnt had as many views as the threatening pm from the festival spirit. but then that thread hasnt had as many posts or views as my what skill will you bring thread :)

I do not agree with all opinions given, and lets face it we come on forums to share opinions, some people do not like the words I use, I cannot agree with some words others use, but that is just cos I dont like the words they used, just because they use words out of context. I struggle to know whether I have suffered ego death, but ep, once again, prompted me to look up stuff, so thanks ep, I love you.

s

[sevenworlds]

"The thinking mind cannot understand Presence and so will often misinterpret it. It will say that you are uncaring, distant, have no compassion, are not relating. The truth is, you are relating but at a level deeper than thought and emotion."

... from A New Earth by Eckhart Tolle.

[anoninnyc]

I have A New Earth in my hand at this moment. I highly recommend it to anyone interested in this topic.

[seamus]

You're mistaken. It's not about taking pshcyoactive drugs then coming back from the trip.

The procedure I was involved in induced a permanent state akin to being on LSD... no drugs involved. Permanent change of brain chemistry. Schizophrenia.

It's not a 'trip' man..

You think you've got enlightenment through drugs?

Nahhh... just a glimpse.

I would not agree that I am totally mistaken. I may paint an incomplete picture as I have not yet ascertained for myself that this ego death is permanent. I assumed it was, right up until the moment I passed through the door. I came to the conclusion that it was both unnecessary and disruptive to my purpose in this life for me to remain in that state of mind. Yes, I may have been in a schizoid state, but I already knew that I was schizoid-ed by early traumas in my life. My reality was being uncovered. I was not full of terror over the lack control over my own destiny that I have. On earlier occasions of nearing the "point of no return" I stopped and planned and "attempted". This time there was no caution. I do this to embrace the truth. If nonexistence is truth, I will love that truth. If dissolution or dispersion is truth I will embrace it. Yoda said, "Do or do not. There is no try." I believe I made a breakthrough into the level of awareness which I had previously perceived as the extinction of the universe (a mere trick of the ego), partly because I have been practicing being benign and harmless as an end in itself as well as a means to greater trust in my self.

I find that I am able to return to that awareness of my role as a cog in the great enlightenment machine by the focused and purposed use of my will. The awareness brings almost all the comfort of the full experience, without removing one from social circumstances. Your mileage may vary, but I am very excited to have verified both the existence and the total justice and goodness of the afterlife. That is, we all get what we deserve and/or need to fulfill our individual purpose for being here, which is probably not even our own decision. I know that last will be unpopular with many, but I believe the nature of our character is manifested in how we react to predetermined events in our lives (with love or hate) , not by what role we choose in life. Of course the two are connected.

I don't doubt that you were involved in a program to permanently induce a "peak trip"-like state, but what I mean to say is that your experience would have been much different if you had allowed the imminent dissolution/surrender take place. I can't know in what ways it would have been different, or the quality of the experience for you, but you would certainly know more about the nature of the universe than you presently do, and perhaps even been given the power to "hack the matrix". I have dreams of having such power, and it is exhilarating. It has to do with the heart chakra, I'm sure. I've been told in my dreams that my eyes look like green flames when I fly.

Back on topic, I assert that what I experienced has had a permanent effect on me while allowing me to continue operating on a daily basis. It lines up well with what I have read on egodeath.com and also csp.org, concerning ego death. I did not even discover the existence of these websites until after i had my breakthrough experience, and only learned of the term "ego death" a couple of weeks ago. To me it was always "death" or "the black door" or "the one-way door", and I didn't know that there was any appreciable body of writing on the subject. I am sure glad that there is.

Peace,

s

Edit: OBTW thanks for all the feedback folks!

[seamus]

Life is a condition we all escape from: so it seems to me you are more asking: how can I know that expending my perception beyond life doesn’t stop my contracting my perception back into life: in other words, can I force my awareness back into thinking the temporary condition (life) is the natural and enduring one? ultimately this is saying: If I take the risk of changing, do I lose what I had before? The answer though is a tough one: the one thing you are guaranteed to lose is what you had before, even if you do nothing and resist change all through life: its a lease, not freehold. Yet if one does not develop ones consciousness, one gains nothing from the experience of life either. And one cannot develop ones consciousness past a certain point without ego-death… the change of perception of who/what one is

Damn, John. Sounds like you are a few steps ahead on the same path I'm on. :)


That’s just "you" talking Edelweiss. Oh it can be fear and terror, your not wrong there, but its only your perception telling you it has to be.

That's exactly what I was trying to say. Like I told you before, John, you have this canny way of using the other side of the brain to say what I say. Almost eerie.
What about Love? What about Laughter? But to see those routes one has to choose to see them: and if we tell ourselves "it cannot be": it cannot be. Self fulfilling prophecy there. but what ever pathway "one" walks, it all comes down to:

Self Liberation through seeing with Naked Awareness



The Grateful Dead did a song called "Althea", which most of you will immediately recognize as a Greek word. I looked it up and it means "truth". That was in a Strong's concordance dictionary.
Without getting into personal details, I'll just quote some of the lyrics here,"Can't talk to you without talking to me, we're guilty of the same old thing: thinking a lot about less and less and forgetting the love we bring."


Life is filled with the illusions of control: we are passengers in the body as much as pilots. but there is control which is not illusion, and it is called choice: also known as free will. Whilst we may not be able to control all that we experience, we can always choose how we relate to it. And its choice on that level that opens the doors


Canny!



"I am clever" "I am thick" "I am valuable" "I am worthless" "I'm attractive "I'm ugly" "there is a god and I must love him" "there is a god and I must fear him" "there is no god, I am alone" "mankind is divine" "mankind is animal" "money is everything" "money is nothing" (and also "I am male" "I am female") + a whole lot more

Now when our ego rules us, we believe that the ego is us "who am I without my thoughts? Who am I without my emotions?"... and if we are successfully hypnotised, we do not know: then we have no choice but to identify ourselves AS our thoughts and emotions, and we are then defined solely by the input of the five senses and our animal (spacesuit factory default) responses: that’s the reptilian brain of course

Now I submit that that is where "they" far prefer us to be



Exactly. Unfortunately, humans have been all too complicit in their own bamboozlement. It's always going to be easier to blame the devil than it is to face up to one's own shortcomings. But the former road will never, ever lead to salvation.


[...]Now we are at the heart of it: how can we feel emotion without an ego?

You see, emotion itself is not the genuine article: it is feedback, a copy: feeling is the response to the choice of the emotion: the emotion does not create the feeling: the choice creates the feeling. We don’t need elctro-chemical biofeedback in order to feel: we are consciousness, connected to everything. it is the soul, not the ego, that feels, because it is the soul that is immortal and genuine. Daleks and Cybermen are creatures that became trapped in their egos: both motivated to do so, btw, by Fear: Daleks the fear of not being supreme, Cybermen the Fear of weakness, pain and death. One could say the Doctor opposes them because the Doctor knows that it is Fear that is the enemy...and he is not prepared to let them impose their fear on the rest of Life: you now how passionate he gets about that!



Brilliant! I never saw that parallel before. But it's been years since I saw anything with the Daleks in it.


That’s certainly a valid perception of one reason why "they" are so whacked: but one should resist viewing "them" as one mass: there are good un's and bad un's and who is who changes over the course of their lives. The error of the illuminati, ultimately, is the error of pride: trying to work it all out with finite mind instead of just connecting to the creator and tuning in (course that’s ego for you and why some of them try to think their way into ego death. Silly buggers: simple surrender is to complicated for them)

I tried to think my way in, and Cerberus took a chunk out of my arse! :D


Save the little change until the big change? Well that’s a choice... but it probably means a trip round the wheel again

In summary:

The ego is indeed still useful and is required all through life: but ego-death is not per se talking about destroying the ego, but altering the souls realtionship to it, as we hopefully have seen.
Is this related to that book you're reading?


Of course there is another path of ego death which is the deliberate and purposeful surrender of ego to higher authority, to the point where the self is surrended and becomes that higher authority... few have ever walked that path, but they have always made a jolly big impression... Abraham, Jesus, Mohammed... say the legends
This is the path that all humans could have walked had they chosen to love the truth instead of their petty fantasies of grandeur. It is pathetic and very sad that they chose pain over joy and punishment over love so consistently. This may be the last time this planet is used. It may have to be destroyed like mars or that asteroid belt planet. Some fools actually tinkered with technology to the point of destroying their whole peoples' home. Science and technology are the ways of the devolving race. Magic is the way of evolving people, intending with such force that their needs manifest. I hope to learn some of that. If Jesus could do it, so can I.

Cheers,

s

[seamus]

it appears to me you fell through one of those "trap doors", seamus.

let me ask you a question: didn't this "ego drop" (i like that better than death, as in drop in intensity and frequency) feel like you were looking at a straw man?
No. I guess it's potentially an individual matter for the non-standard "succession of personalities" type of experience, as opposed to the "white light" or "golden light" experiences. I believe that if one has developed an immortal soul, their experiences become more individualized.



in my case, they were corporate beliefs rather than religion-- even though it amounts to the same stinking mess! :D



Oh i see, you mean my previous fears? Well, I would say that my fears just totally evaporated, without leaving so much as a trace to which I could point and say "that's what caused me all that grief".

i saw this movie last night, called "the fever", with vanessa redgrave. stunning, really. i highly recommend it. it's on dish this month.
Hmm, I'll see if I can rent it. No cable, no dish here. We's po'.

s

[cleft_asunder]

The ego get's a bad deal in the so called spiritual ones beliefs.

The ego isn't all bad, it is what drives you to suceed, have confidence, determination and is part of you're natural desires as a human. It's connected to the will which is what these spiritual gurus and teachings want to supress so they can have their will dictate to you're own will which is YOU.

You choose....... use you're own mind to improve yourself or have an other dictate to you what's wrong with you, so they can use their will and ego to control you by promising you a better you.

I was just going to say the same thing. You do not want to destroy the EGO! I doubt it's possible any way. It is not your enemy. Do you really think an enlightened person has a destroyed ego?

[lifeofbrian]

Damn, that's a great post! When did you show up to the party?
there are clues and hints in our cultures. I can think of a dozen rock and roll songs off the top of my head that deal with this issue either directly or obliquely ("she's not there" comes to mind immediately)
That is very interesting. Are you saying that the ego knows its own place in the development of its host spirit-being? You say "deemed". Deemed by whom?
I like the way the fellow on egodeath.com describes it. He calls it a loosening of ego's grasp on us. I don't know about this "loss", as it is impossible to erase history.
This is what happened to me the first dozen times I tried it. It's because I was wanting to escape my life. This time, I am different in that I am embracing my life and my destiny, and have no attachment to any particular eventuality. Even if I discovered that I was the Antichrist, I would embrace that. After all, how could I be such a coward as to continue to shrink back from who I am? you sound like someone who has gone through all this :) Good on you that you survived and got your head screwed on straight! I was a-preaching for about 15 years. Bah, humbug. Specious clatrap, that christ stuff is.

I personally cannot conceive of someone succeeding in their first attempt at ego death except by use of "heroic doses" (a la Terence McKenna) or with lots and lots of dabbling beforehand, and coaching. Heroic doses are probably the easier route, but I am glad that I did it the hard way. I failed a bunch of times, but I know I am strong now.

Here is the rub. Ego death can not be used as an "escape" from one's life situation, because that is addictive behavior, and addictive behavior cannot be used to get rid of an addiction (the addiction to the illusion of ME being so important) Ooh, I want to know what you mean by that last bit!


amen brother! Only those who love the truth more than their own lives can find it. This is being "willing to face what is". Equanimity and nonattachment. See, Buddha was right all along! But the dissolution thing must have been added later by dogmatists. Buddhism coupled with a concept of the transcendence of a real inner soul would have been the world's leading religion. But that nihilism thing is too much of a downer. But what is, is! Regardless of how appealing or nonappealing. I found my reality to be one of evolution. Better and better and nicer and nicer and more love and friendship, between mutually respecting and encouraging beings.

Some wonder why I am so down on humanity sometimes. This is why. Better, more beautiful, more kind, more friendly; these do not compute for the human collective mind. It's only the collective I'm down on. It's pure shit. Great fertilizer, but not what you want to make friends with.

Peace and love

s

P.S. It's okay to have multiple personalities, as long as they are well-aquainted and friends with each other :)

Thank you seamus - I have spent some time collecting my feelings and thoughts as you offered a different perspective. But no; I do not have "multiple personalities" (?) if you somehow got that impression :)

As far as it is possible to pinpoint in "time", my "ego death" happened at the age of 8 when I tried to commit suicide by drowning. My state of being can best be described with these words:

"The only thing that burns in hell is the part of you that will not let go of your life: your memories, your attachments. They burn them all away, but they are not punishing you, they are freeing your soul. If you are frightened of dying and you are holding on, you will see devils tearing your life away. If you have made your peace, then the devils are really angels freeing you from the earth."

I find it very hard to describe how "ego death" can be the realisation that we are more than our identity in 3D. I read forums online and I see ego and image everywhere, and I find that sad. Pretense for attention or comfort a lot of the time. Confirmation maybe. Communion. It is as if every single person online need to be told that they are OK. They are fine. Life is what it is, stop fussing about it. Let us work together. Whatever is in your heart will judge you when you die physically. That is all you need to understand.

As part of a generation that "knew" war early in their 20's I can say that conflicts and war no longer hold the "romance" and "excitement" it may do for those young eager adrenaline bursting "20-something" men today who never had to witness their friends being blown to pieces - yet. War is never worth the price. And war is all about ego. Either national or ideological.

Once safely out of a war, there is only one objective and purpose in life; living. Do not ever invite me to watch a war movie. I am too busy being grateful for the good things that life provides my soul; not my ego.

[brians201]

Thank you seamus - I have spent some time collecting my feelings and thoughts as you offered a different perspective. But no; I do not have "multiple personalities" (?) if you somehow got that impression :)

As far as it is possible to pinpoint in "time", my "ego death" happened at the age of 8 when I tried to commit suicide by drowning. My state of being can best be described with these words:

"The only thing that burns in hell is the part of you that will not let go of your life: your memories, your attachments. They burn them all away, but they are not punishing you, they are freeing your soul. If you are frightened of dying and you are holding on, you will see devils tearing your life away. If you have made your peace, then the devils are really angels freeing you from the earth."

I find it very hard to describe how "ego death" can be the realisation that we are more than our identity in 3D. I read forums online and I see ego and image everywhere, and I find that sad. Pretense for attention or comfort a lot of the time. Confirmation maybe. Communion. It is as if every single person online need to be told that they are OK. They are fine. Life is what it is, stop fussing about it. Let us work together. Whatever is in your heart will judge you when you die physically. That is all you need to understand.

As part of a generation that "knew" war early in their 20's I can say that conflicts and war no longer hold the "romance" and "excitement" it may do for those young eager adrenaline bursting "20-something" men today who never had to witness their friends being blown to pieces - yet. War is never worth the price. And war is all about ego. Either national or ideological.

Once safely out of a war, there is only one objective and purpose in life; living. Do not ever invite me to watch a war movie. I am too busy being grateful for the good things that life provides my soul; not my ego.

Beautiful last post Life of Brian ..... and a great thread with lots of honesty all round. Even now as I am my writing this I can feel my Ego wanting this post to be liked and agreed with :(

I have certainly not killed my Ego yet but I also think that is not the point as the Ego has it's role to play in each of our lives on this plane.

Loren Roche ..
"The ego is your sense of "I," the sense of self. The function of the ego is to serve as the linkage, the connective tissue between the senses, the body, the different talents you have. The ego's task also is to be aware of your boundaries, what is "me" and "not-me."

The Dalai Lama ..
"EGO is a negative emotion which, infact, is Evil Going On. But its the feeling of "I" that makes us resolute and strong It is "I" that helps one develop a great level of confidence. But, it would lead us to trouble if "I" are in abundance. If others are used for selffish 'I', it is absolutely wrong. But when 'I' serves humanity one's faith gets strong."

So I think like most things there is a balance to be maintained with the ego which can be achieved by watchfullness and mindfulness lest this thing is allowed to take control of us.
Even the Dalai Lama prostrates himself before teaching his pupils lest his ego starts to tell him he is something special.

Imagine the Bush/Blair axis doing that before adressing their nations to demand more taxes/cash for their own agendas. Mentioning the word humility to Bush would illicit the same reaction to dousing Dracula in Garlic juice .. Total Recoil.

But I digress: Ego Death .. NO! Control of the Ego ... YES!

I am trying :) .......

[lifeofbrian]

Beautiful last post Life of Brian ..... and a great thread with lots of honesty all round. Even now as I am my writing this I can feel my Ego wanting this post to be liked and agreed with :(

I have certainly not killed my Ego yet but I also think that is not the point as the Ego has it's role to play in each of our lives on this plane.

Loren Roche ..
"The ego is your sense of "I," the sense of self. The function of the ego is to serve as the linkage, the connective tissue between the senses, the body, the different talents you have. The ego's task also is to be aware of your boundaries, what is "me" and "not-me."

The Dalai Lama ..
"EGO is a negative emotion which, infact, is Evil Going On. But its the feeling of "I" that makes us resolute and strong It is "I" that helps one develop a great level of confidence. But, it would lead us to trouble if "I" are in abundance. If others are used for selffish 'I', it is absolutely wrong. But when 'I' serves humanity one's faith gets strong."

So I think like most things there is a balance to be maintained with the ego which can be achieved by watchfullness and mindfulness lest this thing is allowed to take control of us.
Even the Dalai Lama prostrates himself before teaching his pupils lest his ego starts to tell him he is something special.

Imagine the Bush/Blair axis doing that before adressing their nations to demand more taxes/cash for their own agendas. Mentioning the word humility to Bush would illicit the same reaction to dousing Dracula in Garlic juice .. Total Recoil.

But I digress: Ego Death .. NO! Control of the Ego ... YES!

I am trying :) .......

"So I think like most things there is a balance to be maintained with the ego which can be achieved by watchfullness and mindfulness lest this thing is allowed to take control of us."

That is exactly it, innit , brians201 :) A bit of brains, a bit of heart, a bit of wisdom, a bit of experience, all managed by gut and soul and intuitive to and considerate of what other people feel. Balance.

Ego in my experience is not "evil" if it is healthy as in "knowing its place within an individual and the greater whole". Blown out of all proportions "ego" can become a problem however- like with George W Bush and his desire to please his Dad.

Lifestyle and image (the other faces of ego) how other people perceive us. What we "manage to project" to others. That is a trap for the ego as well - believing our own publicity. It certainly is a trap if it is where we place our sense of worth/inherent value. Because we are not our stuff. We are not our education. We are not our achievements, we are not our furniture. We are all alive ~ here for a reason - that is what makes us all equal.

We do need an "ego" of course but a healthy one. Without one we would have no boundaries and no individuated sense of Self and Soul. Without one we would not be able to function in 3D at all.

Your post made me think and contemplate brians201~thank you.

[seamus]

Thank you seamus - I have spent some time collecting my feelings and thoughts as you offered a different perspective. But no; I do not have "multiple personalities" (?) if you somehow got that impression :)Thank you for your kind words, LoB. ROFL! I didn't mean to imply that you have multiple personalities. I was just making a wacky quip on my own behalf ;) To a certain degree, we all have more or less divided personalities. For exmple, we have a certain behavior pattern we exhibit when we are with our girlfriend, which would be inappropriate to express in the presence of Grandma, so the Grandma-present persona suppresses the Kathy-present persona. That is, if we are acculturated in the typical Western way.

As far as it is possible to pinpoint in "time", my "ego death" happened at the age of 8 when I tried to commit suicide by drowning. My state of being can best be described with these words:

"The only thing that burns in hell is the part of you that will not let go of your life: your memories, your attachments. They burn them all away, but they are not punishing you, they are freeing your soul. If you are frightened of dying and you are holding on, you will see devils tearing your life away. If you have made your peace, then the devils are really angels freeing you from the earth."
I love that quote, but I wish you had cited its source. It sounds so damn familiar. Is it from Jacob's Ladder? There is another side to it, I think. I don't think that any lifetime on this earth has, for any truly sentient being, a merely temporary effect. Past-life regression and past-life memories show this. It's not that the temporal things must be "burned away" or destroyed, just as destroying the ego is the furthest thing from my mind or present intent, but rather that the hold of the temporal things (attachments, identification with "I") upon us must be destroyed. The hold, the power, is the illusion. The ego (self) is real and necessary and will remain part of our being for a logn time if not forever. In my experience I learned that the "I" I have now is but one of a myriad which I have worn. But ego is indeed to be mastered, as it is the wellspring of fear. Now, it should be emphasized that I "knew" it before (that I have worn many masks through different lives) but I did not know it by direct experience. I mentally assented to that concept. The difference is all-important.

I find it very hard to describe how "ego death" can be the realisation that we are more than our identity in 3D. [...] The reason that it is hard to describe is that modern languages have been purged of the terms which facilitate the articulation of such thoughts. There is a concerted, well-coordinated effort, as all of us on the forum here know, to keep the mass of population "dumbed down". I think it's important to be aware of that as well, and to fight against it for your own sake. One of the first polls here was the question "Do you think everyone has an immortal soul?" or something like that. It prompted a discussion which eventually led to my departure from the mind-control cult I was in. It is gone now, as is the woman (jenkalichen) who posted some of the more provocative points. Y'all should have paid more attention while she was here. She's one of the most intelligent people I know. (we have become friends, and she was instrumental in my extrication from the cult)As part of a generation that "knew" war early in their 20's I can say that conflicts and war no longer hold the "romance" and "excitement" it may do for those young eager adrenaline bursting "20-something" men today who never had to witness their friends being blown to pieces - yet. War is never worth the price. And war is all about ego. Either national or ideological.

Once safely out of a war, there is only one objective and purpose in life; living. Do not ever invite me to watch a war movie. I am too busy being grateful for the good things that life provides my soul; not my ego.I appreciate your grateful stance. Personally I am more concerned with removing (or at least exposing) from my life what remains of illusion.
Cheers for sharing your insights!

s


Edit: I found the post/poll I mentioned. http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=459&page=2
also if you search with yahoo for jenkalichen you can find some stuff from her. So she doesn't use paragraphs, her comp skills are awful. It's all about the content, baby!

[lifeofbrian]

Thank you for your kind words, LoB. ROFL! I didn't mean to imply that you have multiple personalities. I was just making a wacky quip on my own behalf ;) To a certain degree, we all have more or less divided personalities. For exmple, we have a certain behavior pattern we exhibit when we are with our girlfriend, which would be inappropriate to express in the presence of Grandma, so the Grandma-present persona suppresses the Kathy-present persona. That is, if we are acculturated in the typical Western way.

LOL I see what you mean :) The "hats" we wear, the roles we "play" in order to please people we love as part of the act where we try to protect them from ourselves. As if we think we are unloveable if we are our own genuine selves. What does that say of our faith in the people we love though. :) You point is a good one. Very important.

I love that quote, but I wish you had cited its source. It sounds so damn familiar. Is it from Jacob's Ladder? There is another side to it, I think. I don't think that any lifetime on this earth has, for any truly sentient being, a merely temporary effect. Past-life regression and past-life memories show this. It's not that the temporal things must be "burned away" or destroyed, just as destroying the ego is the furthest thing from my mind or present intent, but rather that the hold of the temporal things (attachments, identification with "I") upon us must be destroyed. The hold, the power, is the illusion. The ego (self) is real and necessary and will remain part of our being for a logn time if not forever. In my experience I learned that the "I" I have now is but one of a myriad which I have worn. But ego is indeed to be mastered, as it is the wellspring of fear. Now, it should be emphasized that I "knew" it before (that I have worn many masks through different lives) but I did not know it by direct experience. I mentally assented to that concept. The difference is all-important.

I had to make a search for the quote. It has been above my desk for ages and I forgot the source. You are right, it is from "Jacob's Ladder" - and here you can view the film: http://www.tv-links.co.uk/show.do/4/3284

The reason that it is hard to describe is that modern languages have been purged of the terms which facilitate the articulation of such thoughts. There is a concerted, well-coordinated effort, as all of us on the forum here know, to keep the mass of population "dumbed down". I think it's important to be aware of that as well, and to fight against it for your own sake. One of the first polls here was the question "Do you think everyone has an immortal soul?" or something like that. It prompted a discussion which eventually led to my departure from the mind-control cult I was in. It is gone now, as is the woman (jenkalichen) who posted some of the more provocative points. Y'all should have paid more attention while she was here. She's one of the most intelligent people I know. (we have become friends, and she was instrumental in my extrication from the cult)I appreciate your grateful stance. Personally I am more concerned with removing (or at least exposing) from my life what remains of illusion.

Personally I have found not all people have souls. Most people have finite "bubbles" of lifeforce energy they were born with - and unfortunately never connect to their soul - never mind their higher selves.


Cheers for sharing your insights!

s


Edit: I found the post/poll I mentioned. http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=459&page=2
also if you search with yahoo for jenkalichen you can find some stuff from her. So she doesn't use paragraphs, her comp skills are awful. It's all about the content, baby!

This woman made me go "Whoa!" - :)

Before the Earth becomes uninhabitable through a combination of major Natural disasters, (Yellowstone Super Volcano, a pole shift caused by the continued diminishment of its magnetic field) the Human population will all die from Radiation poisoning. Nuclear War and accidents will destroy man not only in the flesh, but in spirit also.

Nuclear war can not destroy Souls, but none of you have souls, if you did you wouldn't be dangerous violent deadly animals (the Beast). The rest of the Universe does not want Human beings to exist.

They do not support violent evil insane beings. They can't understand how you refuse to be chipped, when you accept and inflict all other forms of enslavement and even glorify them, such as religion, capitalism and prisons etc. You all complain we don't want the chip, but you are already brainwashed robots if you watch TV or Movies.

Humans are too destructive and dangerous to be allowed to continue. What do you think the detention centers are for? They are where you will be turned into robots where you will become slaves. There are forces in the universe who are benign and good, In the rest of the universe, to be jesus like and continue to evolve into better than Jesus, is the norm and sadistic violent cruel selfish evil arrogant beings like you do not exist. These beings are looking forward to the final annihilation of Human beings as a species, because you are incapable of evolution. You will never be loving benign beings, you continually become more evil and insane. Then you blame the reptilians when they are merely projections of you, an attempt to make you change.

But you refuse to see the truth and blame shift like they shape shift. It is beyond your capacity to admit you are flawed and when you become better Nature will mirror back something other than horrible and violent and insane Hell of suffering, (the truth about all of you). This is the end, your allotted time to evolve is up. You will kill yourselves off soon in the final total war on Earth. WWIII has already begun, it will be the mirror of what you did after WWII.

That cycle of planting will now be followed by reaping the same. All the torture in South America? Vietnam? Algeria? Africa? Asia? It will all return to you as the nightmare of WWIII. It will all come back to the givers as their truth, by the hand of Nature without human choice. If any beings are preserved they will be the Jains, some of the brown and yellow races, that have evolved and have the capacity for brotherly love. The original red race will be removed from Earth before it is over. What Humans will never know, among many things is that from the beginning you were given two opposite examples, Good and Evil.

The original Red race was the example of good, the correct way to live and love one another and the Earth. The Jews who are not a race but a combination of all 4 races with some awful DNA added, are the wrong example to follow. Selfishness devoid of love. Fearful, and violent insane egomaniacs who regress rather than evolve, the true nature of the Beast personified insatiable greed. Lust full of violent destructive sneaky deceptive strategies to all in order to get more. They believe that if they are smart enough to contrive and carry out their evil plans then that means they are superior and they deserve it.

Never knowing the reality that they are evil and Hell will be their only reward, so they are stupid, people who lie become so stupid they eventually fool themselves into destroying themselves. You get back what you give. That is the only Law of reality. Humans can choose-Nature cannot choose, Nature mirrors back the truth of the good or evil of every evil selfish choice you delusional and insane humans make. The Jews are the Example you all choose to emulate. Society only advanced in art and evolution during times that the Jews were expelled from society.

What you call advances now in the era of Jewish acceptance is not advancement but your technological poison the eventual utter destruction of the Planet. It will be those who see the evil there who will be spared, by perhaps creating a soul out of Love. Those who support Evil will be wiped out of existence and good riddance to evil. There is a law of the Universe that like attracts like. Evil will always choose evil. Israel and all those who support Israel are already Dead, as in 'Mystery Babalon'.

The US will become a hellhole worse than any third world country on the next few years. May 2010 the bottom will drop out of the american fantasy of superiority. The tables are about to turn. When you suffer know that that is the suffering you imposed on others so that you might selfishly gain at their expense. When you suffer know that you chose to follow the way of the Jews rather than the way of Love, and honoring the Earth, the way of the red race. There is no turning back now the choices have already been made. The cycle is over now see what you have been busy doing to others as it comes back to be done to you.

You who do evil to others, and lie telling yourselves it is good, because it profits your pocketbooks and egos. You who have no souls, will find that your spirit is mortal. Only Love can create an immortal soul, and you who only covet, ego embellishment, status and power over others, and wealth cannot love, you are beasts and you will receive the mark. You are dependent on the enslavement of others to satisfy your lusts, and you will become robots-slaves in return. Your ethic is that anything no matter how harmful it is to others or to the earth is good right and acceptable as long as you yourselves profit somehow from it.

That would be your, prisons, economic system of predatory inequality you call capitalism, wars, poverty. If it adds glitter to your egos it is valuable to you, no matter how phony, pretentious, or superficial, it is. Egos are as fake as money. Only a soul is immortal and forever and lasts after death. The story in the Bible about the exodus from Eden says it all: God who is all of you combined you collectively in spirit form, does not want you to have knowledge of good or evil right or wrong. He wants instead to be the decider, to dictate as a control freak what you do or do not do based on his ability to force you all to submit and obey.

This is still the pretext of Christianity the insane religion. Do gods will, God is Good. God is not good that controlling nature is the nature of the Beast, that nature that you worship will get you all chipped, it is the mark of the Beast. Why do you not comprehend that it is always evil if it harms anyone? Why can you not see the truth that it is evil to impose your will on anyone? Why can you not see the truth that you are all truly evil monsters and that you are all god and therefore god is evil?

Because the Jews have convinced you that God is (id) Good and must be obeyed.

What does the original Red race teach you? That what you do good or evil-right or wrong will be returned to you like for like, so honor the earth and love each other. The Jews want you to worship and obey, the omnipotent control freak- God, who is an angry, jealous, and a falsely proud egotist. No amount of what I say will change your inherent inner nature. Like chooses like. The human race as a species can not go on or continue, you will never have souls because you can not love one another. You can only destroy, lie, be continually dissatisfied no matter how and to what lengths you pursue your lusts-the seven deadly sins.

Humans are Deadly creatures as in if you Kill you will never have an immortal soul. Only the Jains have a correct view on reality.

They are aware that there is no God, that you are all collectively a mortal spirit, and only through the elimination of the evil in yourselves will you be free to become immortals. Jesus stated that you can all be Gods, somehow this has been omitted from modern Bibles. A long time ago, some of you were taken to the Betelgeuse Star system, there you were carefully trained like monkeys to be good these beings were sent back to try to help the rest of the collective,

Jesus was one of those people, so was david Icke, what happened was they quickly reverted to the old ways rather than converting others to the good. When Jesus spoke of my father in Heaven, he meant literally in Heaven in space on his planet in Betelgeuse.

There are still some of them who want to help mankind, like Jesus attempted to do but failed miserably at, especially when he was Hitler.

Very interesting seamus. It raises a number of questions :)

[qishoushi]

Ego is the delusional attachment to the material body.

-Paramahansa Yogananda

(This may not an exact quote but the spirit of it is here.)