Buchanan Clark and Wells

[wise haven]

Just had a lovely big juicy standoff phone call with these debt collection vultures.
Harassment and fraudulent claims, pure and simple; I loved it.

They are trying, without authority from BOTH principal parties to act for one of the principals to recover a non existent debt.

No contract - no debt.

I, as agent for a friend - sent the company that alleges there is a debt (notice of understanding and intent)requesting them to send proof of debt and a signed contract. They defaulted and dishonoured by not responding adequately or in time.
BCW is about the fourth agency that has attempted to intervene in this issue and they all get told to fuck off as we are in negotiation with their client and will not consent to third party involvement.

Their client has no proof of debt - therefore the only way they can proceed is to take this to court which they cannot do without committing fraud. So, it is stalemate. Every 3 months or so a new debt collection agency tries its luck but disappears with its tail between it's legs.
BCW is a nasty piece of work by all accounts - but even they cannot crack this for the simple reason you do not have to involve them and they cannot force the issue.

Remember....Stay in negotiation with the Company that is alleging a debt, try to sort out any problems with them ,no one else, and try to reach an amicable solution.
If they are adamant, they can take it to County Court to try and obtain judgement against you........but, in this case, there is no proof of debt therefore no judgement against will result. The only way they could try to prove there is a debt is if they produce fraudulent evidence.....which I can rebut anyway. They cannot win any way no how.........I love it :D

Remember; debt collectors or supposed bailiffs have absolutely no power until and if a judgement has gone against you.....in other words, due process.

If you are confident - do this yourself, it is very gratifying.
If you are unsure - seek independent advice (eg CAB)

If debt collectors turn up on your doorstep it is easy to get rid of them.

Note: Unless your property is gated, fenced and noticed there is IMPLIED permission/consent or license to enter your property and walk up to your front door, for anyone....postmen, salespeople, neighbours etc.
If you lock the gate or post a notice not to trespass this IMPLIED consent is withdrawn. If this is the case, don't forget to put a post box for the postman to put your mail in. This way only friends with permission and those who phone you for an appointment have permission to come onto your property.
If you cannot gate/fence or post notice all you have to do is say to the debt collection person "I revoke implied license to be on my property, please leave now" If they do not leave they are now trespassing and causing a breach of the peace. Call the police immediately and they must then remove the DC if he is stupid enough to have stayed around.

They cannot win - no matter how they bluff.....and the more they push the more it will cost in compensation and jail time.

If you are a wicked debtor with judgement against you.....non of the above applies and you are on your own.

Disclaimer:
All the above is not to be construed as legal advice....but it could be if I wanted it to be. I reserve the right to provide information or advice of any kind to anyone where and whenever I choose only on condition that those listening to the advice understand it is solely their own responsibility whether they take heed or ignore this advice.
I am not the nanny state and expect any adult, who is not mentally impaired or a child to make judgement and act as they see fit and face the consequences of their own free will.

Lots of love, peace and stuff :D

[malvern]

great work .... it's so important not to deal with the third party , they are powerles unless you contract with them. As for the debt as you state without the signed contract and a sign true bill there is no debt... nowhere for the courts .... and yes always stay in honour ... also if they do come to your door , film it.... or just point the camera/ mobile phone at them and watch them change thier approach.....


freedom is the grandchildren we are the caretakers

[wise haven]

Normally I would not recommend anyone to speak, write or otherwise communicate with one of these third party debt collectors. They are irrelevant (God knows how they make any money unless there is a large population who are scared or tricked into dealing with them.
Today however, I was in the mood to tussle and curious to see how far I could take them and also trying to get them to make fraudulent statements or threats and harassment.
Think about this: If there was a real case would they have waited this amount of time to recover the alleged debt? Answer has to be; NO.
As Malvern says - it is in your best interest to have some sort of video recording to document your defence. These people, surprisingly, are highly regulated and will start to lose money if they go beyond the boundaries of the law - but some of their agents are still naive enough to cross that boundary. The law is on your side, for a change, so use that.
Again, as Malvern says; Stay in honour - do not default - and always be prepared to negotiate.

P.s. Have you ever wondered why consumer debt is so loaded against the lender? The answer is; that you have been given credit created out of nothing.........the money was created out of thin air - it never existed. Therefore the creditor can never claim damage against you because no damage has been done. They did not suffer a loss - the money you supposedly borrowed did not ever exist....therefore it is impossible to make a claim for loss of something that never existed. They are demanding repayment for a concept not a real asset. I can, so can you, make claims for spurious items that never saw the reality of daylight - more the fool are those that accept my claim and make payment to me on that basis.

It's all about lateral thinking.......:rolleyes:

[wacaday]

Hi Wisehaven,

I too and squaring up to BCW, in the past when i was younger i let them intimidate me into paying.

this stems from my student loan and unpaid montly arrears due to late deferrment. No below is a copy of the letter I have written to them, I hope its enought to ward them away, i may have made a mistake or two, not sure.

I had a conversation with a really hostile scottish lady, whenever I've spoken with them i found them very unpleasant even when your very polite with them. Anyway, I felt in a defiant mood, so i phoned and challenged her, my main question was, you say i owe you £635 but, where is the breakdown of what this demand for payment is actually for, all she would say is its in relation to your Stud.loan account, so i continued, " yes, but i need to know what its for, otherwise you could have just plucked this figurr from thin air, and now your threatening me with legal proceedings.

etc etc , you can imagine the rest, but then, i also tried to speak to her on a human level, i asked her, if she enjoys her work, (Not in a sarcastic way, but genuinely) I asked her how it made her feel to speak to people like that all day, and asked what she thought about it all can't quite remember my exact question, anyway the response i got were quite robotic, the nearest thing to humanity i heard was "well i'm not hear to talk about things like that"


Dear BCW,

I write to you regarding your recent correspondence and document entitled Legal Notification, dated 24th December 2008.

Please note all future correspondence should be sent to the address above and not to ............, that was a temporary address as is the above address, If I move before I hear from you, I shall contact you with my new address.

It mentions repeated requests for payment of a sum of £685.36, I strongly disagree with this statement, I have not received repeated requests, I have receive one letter, to which I responded with a phone call to your office to enquire the details to the sum mentioned, I was not impressed with the telephone manner of the lady I spoke with and found the call to be a complete waste of time, so after the festive period it was and is my intention to write to you, as I am now doing.

It is not that I am unwilling to pay the sum, or come to an arrangement, but I am not going to hand over money to your organisation until you can provide me with more details of the money owed, I requested on the phone and now in writing a breakdown of the details, I think a court would find that request reasonable and so if you persist with your stance then I am happy to go to court.

I would also like to see the legal paperwork, that implies I have to pay your organisation anything at all, especially seeing as we there is no contract between myself and Buchanan Clark and Wells. If you can provide me with a signed contract of that nature then perhaps we can move forward with things. I understand that under common law, if there is no contract between two parties then neither party can claim that either owes the other anything.

Please understand that I am not saying that I will not pay, I cannot pay the entire amount, and it will need to be paid in instalments that I can afford, I know that a Court will accept this, and I can prove that I don’t have the means to pay more.

I would also like to mention that this debt to the Student Loan Company was taken out 13 years ago, prior to April 2007, it was an unsecured debt, if you check the small print of the original contract, there is a flaw, and so the original contract is in breach of the regulatory statutes, therefore making this debt legally unenforceable. This comes under Verification of Debt (VOD)

If you are able to provide me with a breakdown of the money you say I owe you, could you also provide me with a financial trail that shows where the money originated and the debit on your clients account and the debit on your own account, otherwise I fear these figures could be plucked from thin air.

Please provide-

1. Verification of Debt, including full bookkeeping accounts
2. A contract between you and me, establishing a debt, signed by both
parties
3 A bill signed by you, under full commercial liability of perjury

I have contacted my Solicitor regarding this matter and I await your response.


Yours Sincerely

[wacaday]

I would really appreciat some feedback on my letter to these vultures, what i did right and what i may have done wrong. from anyone who knows.

[yozhik]

I would really appreciat some feedback on my letter to these vultures, what i did right and what i may have done wrong. from anyone who knows.

In my opinion, which is not based on experience, it would seem you have covered all basics.

You have conditionally accepted upon proof of claim; both legal and staying in honour.

You have given them remedy.

You have given details of the proof required.

Looks good to me.

[wacaday]

thanks yozhik, i sent it over a week ago and have heard nothing yet.

[the worm that turned]

I have had 2 run-ins with these type of companies (One called Westcott Credit). One as a result of a mistake by BT, the second as a result of a non-existent debt from British Gas. What makes me laugh the most is that they are (or were) both "British" companies providing the British people with a service. Now they are just money grabbing parasites like many other companies!

In both instances I immediately contacted the company I was in contract with (BT and BG) and said unless they call off these predators I will be taking precedings against them for harassment. In both cases they told the companies to leave me alone. In both instances I didn't have to pay anything because the debts didn't exist.

Do be played by these fools. They are just obsessed with money and will do anything to get it!

[pleasuredome]

I would really appreciat some feedback on my letter to these vultures, what i did right and what i may have done wrong. from anyone who knows.

from my understanding, a letter can be ignored. always send a notice.

im currently dealing with a CC company and a DCA at the moment. i will post a thread on the results within a month.

[wacaday]

thanks pleasuredome, i'll send them a notice to the same effect as the letter.:)

[wacaday]

Ok from my post above you can see what i wrote to them, they've written another letter with no ref to the letter i sent them threatening the following.

Despiter repeated requests for payment of outstanding debt, the amount shown remains unpaid. Accordingly, our client, SLC ltd, has agreed to allow us to commence proceedings to arrest monies you may have in a bank/building society.

The resulting action may mean you will no longer be able to withdraw monies from your account or be in a position to pay any agreed direct debits or standing orders until you sign a mandate for payment of outstanding debt.

Please call 24 hour payment line etc etc.

I also now a magistrate summons for council tax non payment, its going well i think, life in general that is. I feel very trapped at the moment, and the only thing stopping me from walking away from everything is my family.

its not that i am wanting to create al these problems, i literally cannot afford to make the payments.:confused::(

[wise haven]

Ok from my post above you can see what i wrote to them, they've written another letter with no ref to the letter i sent them threatening the following.

Despiter repeated requests for payment of outstanding debt, the amount shown remains unpaid. Accordingly, our client, SLC ltd, has agreed to allow us to commence proceedings to arrest monies you may have in a bank/building society.

The resulting action may mean you will no longer be able to withdraw monies from your account or be in a position to pay any agreed direct debits or standing orders until you sign a mandate for payment of outstanding debt.

Please call 24 hour payment line etc etc.

I also now a magistrate summons for council tax non payment, its going well i think, life in general that is. I feel very trapped at the moment, and the only thing stopping me from walking away from everything is my family.

its not that i am wanting to create al these problems, i literally cannot afford to make the payments.:confused::(

THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT:

They cannot do anything until/if judgement has been made against you.

Cease communication with BCW - Go back to the original principle contractor.
Refuse to deal with a third party (the debt collector)

Go to the CAB, as fast as possible, with all your paperwork regarding these two issues.
I'm not sure where student loans stand within the law - but the CAB will give you the best advice.
CAB will help you get Council Tax debt returned to the Local Council and will negotiate affordable payments to clear the existing debt and this years council tax.
Council tax is a bastard - when/if judgement goes against you they will send in real bailiffs and your costs will go up accordingly. Battling council tax is only for those who really know the law or Freeman route with extreme confidence.

Get down to CAB as fast as you can and don't ignore either of these issues.

Remember, if you don't turn up in court judgement WILL go against you ,always, regardless of whether there was a debt or not.

On a Happier note - This isn't as bad as you might feel, there is resolution, but the CAB route is vital to sorting this out.
Once you are a confident Freeman - then try a different remedy, but not until.
Chin up :)

[wacaday]

Hi Wisehaven,

thanks for the advic, i have spoken with CAB and they're getting back in half an hour.

I was thinking of contacting the SLC with a letter to a similar efect as my first letter to BCW. ie requesting VOD, etc. what are your thoughts?

also, are you a freeman already, i'm still researching, but i would like to ask, are you able to have a bank account and earn, i run a webshop, would i still be able to do this if i was a freeman, sorry if this is a dumb question. feel free to point me in the right direction for further research rather than just giving the answer, i always think i and others get more info and understanding by doing research for yourself.

Cheers

Rich

[mondo23]

Ok from my post above you can see what i wrote to them, they've written another letter with no ref to the letter i sent them threatening the following.

Despiter repeated requests for payment of outstanding debt, the amount shown remains unpaid. Accordingly, our client, SLC ltd, has agreed to allow us to commence proceedings to arrest monies you may have in a bank/building society.

The resulting action may mean you will no longer be able to withdraw monies from your account or be in a position to pay any agreed direct debits or standing orders until you sign a mandate for payment of outstanding debt.

Please call 24 hour payment line etc etc.

I also now a magistrate summons for council tax non payment, its going well i think, life in general that is. I feel very trapped at the moment, and the only thing stopping me from walking away from everything is my family.

its not that i am wanting to create al these problems, i literally cannot afford to make the payments.:confused::(

I am currently dealing with BCW and just recently sent off 2 notices via recorded post. I think they tried to call me yesterday, (number was withheld:rolleyes:). They asked me my name but I asked them who was speaking and what they wanted. They pretty much refused to answer me so I said that I wasnt the person they were looking for. They hung up.
Im waiting now for more letters through my door and possibly more phone calls. Im quite enjoying this. :D
Wacaday, dont let those pirates get to you. If they are causing you misery and depression, use that against them if possible. Im sure you can get your GP on your side.
I would fucking love it if it were possible that one could sue these pirates for causing emotional and mental harm. Indeed, some people commit suicide because they have debt collectors snapping at their heels. Thats fucked up.:mad:

[yozhik]

I think they tried to call me yesterday, (number was withheld:rolleyes:). They asked me my name but I asked them who was speaking and what they wanted. They pretty much refused to answer me so I said that I wasnt the person they were looking for. They hung up.


This is the exact same bullshit I got sick of, so don't play the game either.

When a bank called me - have no clue why - they asked for me by name. When I asked, "who is calling please", they got very pissed off. After they answered with the name of the bank, I asked for "the nature of their call" ... the caller then tried to tell me that to divulge that information, they needed my Date Of Birth for verification.

I refused to give it - when asked why - I said, "well if you truly are calling from a bank, which I have no proof of other than your claim, which anyone could do - then you will understand the value of personal data and I have no intention of giving you ANY personal information given that I have no idea who you are and you will not give me any information regarding the nature of your call !"

Stunned silence ...

The caller got quite agitated at this point and attempted to bluff me, by pushing the point that to continue with this information, I was required to give my details for "Identification" and that the Data Protection Act required this of me, for my protection. :D

I reminded tham that it was HE who had called me ... and if he wanted the phone call to progress further, then he would need to provide me with full disclosure regarding which business he was calling from, the nature of the business he wished to discuss, to whom he wished to speak with and did he have my authorisation to contact that person on this phone number.

Stunned silence ... (again)

He told me he could not do that unless I gave him my name and DOB for ID verification. So I said; "then I guess you have wasted your time calling this number, because you will never get that information given I have no clue who the hell you are and you refuse to tell me what you're calling about. Have a nice day" ... (click)

Assholes ... they think we are obliged to give them what they want.

[wise haven]

Hi Wisehaven,

thanks for the advic, i have spoken with CAB and they're getting back in half an hour.

I was thinking of contacting the SLC with a letter to a similar efect as my first letter to BCW. ie requesting VOD, etc. what are your thoughts?

also, are you a freeman already, i'm still researching, but i would like to ask, are you able to have a bank account and earn, i run a webshop, would i still be able to do this if i was a freeman, sorry if this is a dumb question. feel free to point me in the right direction for further research rather than just giving the answer, i always think i and others get more info and understanding by doing research for yourself.

Cheers

Rich
I haven't sent my NOUICR to Her Maj. yet. I am currently looking at this from both sides......English Law and Common Law(Freeman perspective)So I got myself a whole load of text books and started a Law degree (OU). I am also doing community support in the form of legal advice.
The best advice I can give is to watch Rob's videos until you fully understand how and why what he is saying is working. Read up on everything you can find and then when you understand it fully, and can craft your own documents, then it will be time to start taking freeman steps.
Depending on your commitments, family and children etc, you could choose to go ahead straight away and do it the hard way (school of legal hard knocks) which some have done. That is a quick, steep learning curve method - but you have to be prepared to make mistakes and take a hit or two.

A good starting point is to understand the difference between legal and lawful....this was a penny dropping moment for me and it becomes easier after that.
You know you are on the right track when you stop "asking if you can" do something and start "telling" the gov. what you are going to do.

As Rob says - Children ask permission to do something that is lawful.

The guy at youtube channel 21stcenturypolitix is also excellent stuff and is well worth a look.
http://uk.youtube.com/user/21stCenturyPolitix

Good luck with the debt collector bastards.

[wise haven]

I am currently dealing with BCW and just recently sent off 2 notices via recorded post. I think they tried to call me yesterday, (number was withheld:rolleyes:). They asked me my name but I asked them who was speaking and what they wanted. They pretty much refused to answer me so I said that I wasnt the person they were looking for. They hung up.
Im waiting now for more letters through my door and possibly more phone calls. Im quite enjoying this. :D
Wacaday, dont let those pirates get to you. If they are causing you misery and depression, use that against them if possible. Im sure you can get your GP on your side.
I would fucking love it if it were possible that one could sue these pirates for causing emotional and mental harm. Indeed, some people commit suicide because they have debt collectors snapping at their heels. Thats fucked up.:mad:

The good news is that these people can be held accountable and lose their license but you have to collect evidence. They have some pretty strict rules in place to limit their intimidation but most people don't know that.

YOU DO NOT - I repeat - YOU DO NOT have to have any interation with these people at all......I only do it because I know what I'm doing and if I am bored :D

They can't call you outside office hours (Harassment)If they call you on the phone tell them you don't consent to their involvement, you are negotiating with the alleged creditor and please stop calling.
They cannot intimidate you unless you let them - and they cannot harm you verbally or physically without breaking the law.

Be honourable at all times - if you have a debt that you have a problem paying, negotiate, in good faith with the creditor and try to find remedy.

If you dispute the alleged debt - communicate with the supposed creditor and get them to send the necessary proof of their claim. Try to find remedy.

If you are unsure of the law and how to go about any of these procedures go to independant (FREE) legal advisors like the CAB.

Debt collection agencies are toothless Tigers who rely on YOUR ignorance and fear to get you to consent to repaying the alleged debt through them and making a tidy profit out of your misery. DO NOT DO IT!!

Right is Might ;)

[oddblock]

Wise heaven, you're the champ, that was a solid piece of advice! :D

Clear and precice :cool:

[wise haven]

Wise heaven, you're the champ, that was a solid piece of advice! :D

Clear and precice :cool:

Thank you oddblock - I intensely dislike these money vampires and anything to help people find the metaphorical garlic is my good deed for the day. :D