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sylvester1colle
02-12-2008, 11:39 PM
Secret societies , why do they have to be secret?

keystone
03-12-2008, 12:48 AM
The trite reply is that if they weren't they wouldn't be.:D

mike martin
03-12-2008, 12:58 AM
The real question is, does anyone know any?

Mike

lightindarkness
03-12-2008, 01:53 AM
The real question is, does anyone know any?

Mike

In all my years I have yet to find a actual secret society that conspiracy theorists constantly go nuts over. The things they claim are secret societies either don't exist anymore (Illuminati), never have existed (NWO), or do exist but are not secret societies (Bohemian Grove).

sylvester1colle
03-12-2008, 08:42 PM
i know of one =o)

elirien
03-12-2008, 09:04 PM
I know of the greatest secret society of all. It's me :D Even I don't know half the time what's going to happen where. :D

Besides that I would vote for the Rosicrucians perhaps. It's kind of like that dude that made the georgia guidestones. Very hard to find. Weirdly his surname was christian. Makes you all think "Rosenkreuz!" because of the cross reference which as far as I've read has nothing to do with the bible. :)

mike martin
04-12-2008, 01:46 AM
Weirdly his surname was christian. Makes you all think "Rosenkreuz!" because of the cross reference which as far as I've read has nothing to do with the bible. :)
Actually it made me think of Edge!

If his first name was Christian I would probably think Bale.

Mike

elirien
04-12-2008, 01:50 AM
Actually it made me think of Edge!

If his first name was Christian I would probably think Bale.

Mike

Ah come on. It is a good theory :D You guys really need some fantasy going once in a while. All those rituals must have made you stiff like the millitary.

mike martin
04-12-2008, 02:16 AM
Ah come on. It is a good theory :D You guys really need some fantasy going once in a while. All those rituals must have made you stiff like the millitary.

Oh alright, you had me at :D

Mike

elirien
04-12-2008, 10:56 AM
Oh alright, you had me at :D

Mike

and I know that it isn't a secret society after I have knowledge of it :D

What would be your *most secret of all* society? What I mean is what society surprised you the most after you heard of it and read their publications (besides masonry).

mike martin
04-12-2008, 03:05 PM
What would be your *most secret of all* society? What I mean is what society surprised you the most after you heard of it and read their publications (besides masonry).

That's an easy one! Opus Dei.

I held it in the same regard as many of you here view Freemasonry. My information had never come from OD direct just from books that I had read mentioning it.

Mike

meksar
04-12-2008, 04:05 PM
only 2/% of masons know the true agenda it has a outer circle of members, a inner circle and an inner core. This same rule applies to most other fraternal orders, the Knights of Malta are the most discreet as they are the modern day Knights Templar. I think since the internet arrived secret societies knew they faced a larger scale of exposure then ever before, but the people are slowly waking up and when this whole reptilian agenda is clear for everyone to see we will remove are shackles and live in unity or face a lifetime of oppression and slavery that would be impossible to take our freedom back.

elirien
04-12-2008, 05:30 PM
That's an easy one! Opus Dei.

I held it in the same regard as many of you here view Freemasonry. My information had never come from OD direct just from books that I had read mentioning it.

Mike

Damn! I forgot them. Thanks. I'll have a look at those guys. Let's see how they dress :D

lightindarkness
04-12-2008, 05:33 PM
only 2/% of masons know the true agenda it has a outer circle of members, a inner circle and an inner core. This same rule applies to most other fraternal orders, the Knights of Malta are the most discreet as they are the modern day Knights Templar. I think since the internet arrived secret societies knew they faced a larger scale of exposure then ever before, but the people are slowly waking up and when this whole reptilian agenda is clear for everyone to see we will remove are shackles and live in unity or face a lifetime of oppression and slavery that would be impossible to take our freedom back.

Please define the "outer circle of members" and the "inner circle of members," since no mason can ever seem to figure out what that means. Also, please do tell how you - not even being a member, somehow KNOW that there is some evil, devious hidden agenda? How is it that its so secret and so hidden from us "outer circle" masons that we can never find it out, yet you know about it?

meksar
04-12-2008, 07:50 PM
Look masonry has different degrees of initiation, through this process most of them will never get higher up then the first three degrees, when they reach the 30th to 33rd degrees they are in a different world of masonic rituals and inter connecting levels of power and control, many other fraternal orders have understood this pyramid power structure and like the masons have used it manipulate and create chaos in society, the motto for 33rd degree scottish rite of freemasonry is "Ordo Ab Chao" this is a satanic agenda which gets even deeper as there are at least 13 degrees above the 33rd which remain hidden even from researchers into the occult. So to break it down masonry is full of many mysteries, hidden occult knowledge etc, but it and other fraternal orders along with these 90% fairytale religons are the foundation for this reptilian agenda to manifest.

slartibartfast
04-12-2008, 07:55 PM
...the motto for 33rd degree scottish rite of freemasonry is "Ordo Ab Chao" this is a satanic agenda ...

"Order out of Chaos", I am intrigued as to your interpretation of this?

meksar
04-12-2008, 09:37 PM
Order out of chaos, problem reaction solution or manipulate intimidate entrap, divide and conquer are the same basic agenda, to make us to submit to elites tyranny and most masons are not a problem but the more look at people like Albert Pike and many other very prominent masons past and present no sane person can deny there is wicked and spiteful plot to take the planet over for the next king of the kabbalah to rule humanity.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=nwJ0PZMbu-w

elirien
04-12-2008, 10:45 PM
"Order out of Chaos", I am intrigued as to your interpretation of this?

Kind of sounds like the anti-law of thermodynamics :)

meksar
05-12-2008, 12:43 AM
The war on freemasonry has already begun

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=HyuhhH2g5lY&feature=related

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=xofelswmU6s

slartibartfast
05-12-2008, 08:38 AM
The war on freemasonry has already begun


Masonic exposures have been around since at least the 1700s.

eastbeast
05-12-2008, 01:39 PM
Look masonry has different degrees of initiation, through this process most of them will never get higher up then the first three degrees, when they reach the 30th to 33rd degrees they are in a different world of masonic rituals and inter connecting levels of power and control, many other fraternal orders have understood this pyramid power structure and like the masons have used it manipulate and create chaos in society, the motto for 33rd degree scottish rite of freemasonry is "Ordo Ab Chao" this is a satanic agenda which gets even deeper as there are at least 13 degrees above the 33rd which remain hidden even from researchers into the occult. So to break it down masonry is full of many mysteries, hidden occult knowledge etc, but it and other fraternal orders along with these 90% fairytale religons are the foundation for this reptilian agenda to manifest.

Good grief here we go again, another one who has bought into the 33 degree myth.
I am guessing you must be a 46th degree Freemason or whatever you are called when you achieve such dizzying hieghts, as you know so much.

elirien
05-12-2008, 04:15 PM
Good grief here we go again, another one who has bought into the 33 degree myth.
I am guessing you must be a 46th degree Freemason or whatever you are called when you achieve such dizzying hieghts, as you know so much.

are you 33th degree? There is a 33rd degree right :D

I know it is there because I saw a building in a documentary. :rolleyes:

spiraltrance
05-12-2008, 04:20 PM
The real question is, does anyone know any?

Mike

Many of the real 'secret societies' don't even have names and exist entirely on the astral/psychic planes. And it's not a case of becoming a member but more a case of being able to tune into a certain frequency and becoming a member by association.

eastbeast
05-12-2008, 04:37 PM
are you 33th degree? There is a 33rd degree right :D

I know it is there because I saw a building in a documentary. :rolleyes:

No I'm not a 33rd degree Freemason, as you know we don't have such things in UGLE. From what I can make out this 32 & 33 degree CTers are so in love with is an American invention. You know what Americans are like they have to feel 'above' everyone......The simple truth is that England and the English are at the top of a very, very, very steeply sided pyramid. :D :D :D :D

elirien
05-12-2008, 05:24 PM
No I'm not a 33rd degree Freemason, as you know we don't have such things in UGLE. From what I can make out this 32 & 33 degree CTers are so in love with is an American invention. You know what Americans are like they have to feel 'above' everyone......The simple truth is that England and the English are at the top of a very, very, very steeply sided pyramid. :D :D :D :D

Definitely :D Although I'm not convinced the dudes at the top are English or Anglo at all. Do you know if any of your "superiors" visit that temple or have anything to do with the American version?

slartibartfast
05-12-2008, 05:39 PM
No I'm not a 33rd degree Freemason, as you know we don't have such things in UGLE.

For the sake of accuracy, we do have the A&AR which goes upto the 33rd degree in the UK, just not under the UGLE organisation.

meksar
05-12-2008, 09:59 PM
The masons on here who deny the 33rd degree exist are either unaware or in denial, in my research i have come countless examples of masonic corruption and satanic rituals, i know someone who saw some dead cats in a bin outside a lodge, i wonder what happens to all the kids they snatch like baby p and this holly and jessica

keystone
05-12-2008, 11:50 PM
i wonder what happens to all the kids they snatch like baby p and this holly and jessicaYou are sick!

lightindarkness
05-12-2008, 11:59 PM
The masons on here who deny the 33rd degree exist are either unaware or in denial, in my research i have come countless examples of masonic corruption and satanic rituals, i know someone who saw some dead cats in a bin outside a lodge, i wonder what happens to all the kids they snatch like baby p and this holly and jessica

No offense, but you seem like a genuine crackpot. However, I'd LOVE to see some of these "masonic satanic rituals."

Your obsession with the 33rd degree shows you have no idea what you are talking about when it comes to freemasonry. There are tons of OTHER side orders that have just as much power as the Scottish Rite (which is to say, none), but because they don't have high numbers you ignore them.

keystone
06-12-2008, 12:43 AM
What would he do with the 97th in the APR? Expire?

meksar
06-12-2008, 01:32 AM
Im not sick, your masonic superiors are sick

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=UhoX2rvnMBI

meksar
06-12-2008, 01:50 AM
I can see since joining these forums that there are masonic trolls on here who play the good cop bad cop scenario, i simply detest the dark occult, if masons use the light occult i do not have a problem with it as some of it is beneficial to humanity, but like always there are stepping stones in this Hierarchy and the peak knows the true intention of freemasonry and its "hidden masters". Masons also strongly believe in karma so if they are raping or killing kids etc, they will whip out an generous charity donation or endorsement to deceive the public to their sick and perverse ways, the same goes the rest of the fraternal orders and the major religons, many blindly follow the agenda but only a few can ever be in full knowledge of the goals they seek to achieve.

lightindarkness
06-12-2008, 02:51 AM
Im not sick, your masonic superiors are sick

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=UhoX2rvnMBI

I don't know what your sick fantasies are about the masons, but if you listened to the clip you just offered at no time does this person claim this had anything to do with freemasonry. Of course, his theories are ludicrous and he offers no evidence to begin with, but he never makes the claim you try to make.

You are just going to have to learn the facts. The facts are that no matter how bad you want to create some evil and nefarious group to explain a complex world that you cannot understand, using the masons to do so is even worse than blaming it on the illusionary Illuminati or NWO. Please, leave your blaming of the world's problems to imaginary groups instead of trying to blame a real group of real people who know that you are a liar.

barney_rubble
06-12-2008, 03:58 AM
are you 33th degree? There is a 33rd degree right :D

I know it is there because I saw a building in a documentary. :rolleyes:

I am not a 33rd degree but there is at least one guy in my lodge who is.
He is the nicest most caring man I ever met, he is also in my church and he was one of my two sponsors for initiation.

He is in everything Masonic (Here in Ontario)

Past Mater (many times over)
Past Grand Lodge officer (not sure which office)
33rd in the scottish Rite
Not sure how what degree in the York Rite
He is also in the Shrine


On top of all this his wife must be the most patient woman in the world.
He is obviously retired for at least 10 years now- how else would he have the time

boots
06-12-2008, 04:34 AM
I am not a 33rd degree but there is at least one guy in my lodge who is.
He is the nicest most caring man I ever met, he is also in my church and he was one of my two sponsors for initiation.

He is in everything Masonic (Here in Ontario)

Past Mater (many times over)
Past Grand Lodge officer (not sure which office)
33rd in the scottish Rite
Not sure how what degree in the York Rite
He is also in the Shrine


On top of all this his wife must be the most patient woman in the world.
He is obviously retired for at least 10 years now- how else would he have the time


That's your belief.

That could be a complete and utter lie.

.

lightindarkness
06-12-2008, 05:18 AM
That's your belief.

That could be a complete and utter lie.

.

Hmm - real experiences of real 33rd degree masons we know - or anti-masonic propaganda.

Which is more likely to be lies? I wonder.


I know 3 33rd degree masons and they find it very funny that anti-masons make them so special. All 3 are rural farmers who have simply done a lot of community service.

But I guess they must secretly be ruling the world :)

boots
06-12-2008, 05:26 AM
Hmm - real experiences of real 33rd degree masons we know - or anti-masonic propaganda.

Which is more likely to be lies? I wonder.


I know 3 33rd degree masons and they find it very funny that anti-masons make them so special. All 3 are rural farmers who have simply done a lot of community service.

But I guess they must secretly be ruling the world :)


HaHah:rolleyes:

That's your take on it

Well you are lying to cover the truth, probably dont even know the truth got those blinkers on.


_________________

lightindarkness
06-12-2008, 05:29 AM
HaHah:rolleyes:

That's your take on it

Well you are lying to cover the truth, probably dont even know the truth got those blinkers on.


_________________

You must live in a pathetically small world to think that everyone that doesn't fit your fantasies is lieing. As we know from masonic oaths, there is nothing about being a mason that would cause me to lie.

You are a failure.

slartibartfast
06-12-2008, 08:57 AM
...i know someone who saw some dead cats in a bin outside a lodge...

Probably next to a busy road...you are making more leaps of the imagination.

eastbeast
06-12-2008, 12:44 PM
Probably next to a busy road...you are making more leaps of the imagination.

Its the old 'I have a friend who said his friend saw some dead cats in a bin....' thing again.

meksar
06-12-2008, 07:10 PM
The kabbalah is one of the most important aspects of freemasonry, these texts teach the initiate how to summon angelic and demonic presences through the white and black occult rituals it demonstrates.

meksar
06-12-2008, 10:35 PM
This man speaks the fucking truth no matter what people make of it

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=CW7-UskI3To

eastbeast
07-12-2008, 02:08 PM
The kabbalah is one of the most important aspects of freemasonry, these texts teach the initiate how to summon angelic and demonic presences through the white and black occult rituals it demonstrates.

I don't know if whoever told you this was pulling your leg or not, but I've never been informed about this and I'm a Freemason!

Unless it is just something that occurs outside of UGLE of course.

elirien
07-12-2008, 02:28 PM
I am not a 33rd degree but there is at least one guy in my lodge who is.
He is the nicest most caring man I ever met, he is also in my church and he was one of my two sponsors for initiation.

He is in everything Masonic (Here in Ontario)

Past Mater (many times over)
Past Grand Lodge officer (not sure which office)
33rd in the scottish Rite
Not sure how what degree in the York Rite
He is also in the Shrine


On top of all this his wife must be the most patient woman in the world.
He is obviously retired for at least 10 years now- how else would he have the time

Probably. I can't speak what he is of course but his affiliations are interesting. I hope he is working to clean up the corruption especially in the "Shrine".

Thanks for the info. Can I have a name or would that be asking too much ?

stewart edwards
07-12-2008, 02:42 PM
I don't know if whoever told you this was pulling your leg or not, but I've never been informed about this and I'm a Freemason!

Unless it is just something that occurs outside of UGLE of course.It is. You may find that some lodges do ask guardian angels to take position above the masters and wardens chairs. Masons have discussed this on Masonic forums over the past couple of years along with energy flows and structures in lodge. Unless that is my memory is playing tricks on me.

Now if some lodges do seek assistance from good beings, then you have to be open to the possibility that some may choose a darker route. I know that it is fiction but Frabrato the Magician gives a good account of dark lodges - money focused being one key attribute, and focusing on money is one of the surest routes to darkness known to man.

It is easy to filter out stuff you read that is uncomfortable to your belief or knowledge system, we all do it, but if you keep an eye out for such matters, you will I am sure find them on Masonic forums by Masons, now and again. Not very often I give you, but the topics do appear from time to time. This is a good illustration of the esoteric concept of being hidden in plain sight.

meksar
09-12-2008, 02:16 AM
The masons are merely Solomon builders, the mast majority of it rituals are based on the occult teachings of the Kabbalah.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=SBD3RwOGuj0

jos08
09-12-2008, 03:06 AM
after reading tons of books in various languages on different areas of masonry, I have come to the conclusion that there is nothing evil about masonry and it is just a way to bring people together from the three religions. However, I also believe that it is just a fraternity to preserve the old and original Jewish religion because Jews have became close to the point of extinction many times in the past and so masonry was set up by some smart people to keep the Jewish religion.

lightindarkness
09-12-2008, 05:54 AM
after reading tons of books in various languages on different areas of masonry, I have come to the conclusion that there is nothing evil about masonry and it is just a way to bring people together from the three religions. However, I also believe that it is just a fraternity to preserve the old and original Jewish religion because Jews have became close to the point of extinction many times in the past and so masonry was set up by some smart people to keep the Jewish religion.

As masonry only goes back to the 1400s and did not really come into fashion until the 1700s, periods where jews were thrown in ghettos or otherwise not let into mainstream society, how exactly could they create a organization to do this? Especially since there is nothing particularly "jewish" about freemasonry? The founding legends around King Solomon's temple are not religious at all, just tools to teach certain virtues.

lightindarkness
09-12-2008, 05:58 AM
It is. You may find that some lodges do ask guardian angels to take position above the masters and wardens chairs. Masons have discussed this on Masonic forums over the past couple of years along with energy flows and structures in lodge. Unless that is my memory is playing tricks on me.

Now if some lodges do seek assistance from good beings, then you have to be open to the possibility that some may choose a darker route. I know that it is fiction but Frabrato the Magician gives a good account of dark lodges - money focused being one key attribute, and focusing on money is one of the surest routes to darkness known to man.

It is easy to filter out stuff you read that is uncomfortable to your belief or knowledge system, we all do it, but if you keep an eye out for such matters, you will I am sure find them on Masonic forums by Masons, now and again. Not very often I give you, but the topics do appear from time to time. This is a good illustration of the esoteric concept of being hidden in plain sight.

This is also never done in any US lodge, nor any lodge I've been to overseas (Africa, South America, etc.). What jurisdiction is this done under?

Assuming this is regular freemasonry, and I would be surprised to find that it was as it violates at least one landmark, it doesn't follow that somehow this must mean others are searching for "dark beings": if it follows freemasonry such practices would directly contradict the entire purpose of the fraternity.

stewart edwards
09-12-2008, 08:28 AM
Please do not put words into my mouth. You keep pointing out that you are a phd student or have phds, please read my words with care.Assuming this is regular freemasonry, and I would be surprised to find that it was as it violates at least one landmark, it doesn't follow that somehow this must mean others are searching for "dark beings": if it follows freemasonry such practices would directly contradict the entire purpose of the fraternity.I never said that somehow this must mean I said Now if some lodges do seek assistance from good beings, then you have to be open to the possibility that some may choose a darker routeThere is a world of difference between me saying that "you must be open to the possibility" and you interpreting this as "somehow this must mean".
:(

lightindarkness
09-12-2008, 08:32 AM
Please do not put words into my mouth.

Please stop saying things you don't want others to point out. Pointing out what you just said is not "putting words in your mouth". You would be putting the words in your mouth. Don't like them? Then don't type them in the first place.


You keep pointing out that you are a phd student or have phds, please read my words with care.

Actually you are the one who seems very obsessed with it. I think I mentioned it once, and you keep acting hysterical over it. Really its not a big deal.


I never said that somehow this must mean I said There is a world of difference between me saying that "you must be open to the possibility" and you interpreting this as "somehow this must mean".
:(

Actually, you did: you assumed that if someone was calling on "guardian angels" that this must mean there is the possibility of calling on "dark beings." The logic does not hold. Now, are you going to provide what jurisdiction does this or what?

stewart edwards
09-12-2008, 08:37 AM
No because it would be ethically wrong of me to do so.

rickcard
10-12-2008, 07:03 PM
Masonic virtues ?

I worked, as a field electrician, for a backup generator company. I reported that there had been a prolific history of sabotage of the product. A disaffected workforce orchestrated by a shop steward to nobble the equipment in manufacture.

I learnt that an engineer had reported this six years earlier. Nothing had been done apart from changing a design and keeping the unreliability problems unknown to the wider market.

Sometimes we worked with the Installation Dept. The Head of that was a physically powerful man who never swore, never lied, always kept his word, got stuck in with the lads hands on, good physical worker and even made the tea at site. I found out that this giant was the only Freemason in the management team.

However when it came to the moral choice between backing my report to police of sabotage (and losing employ with the company) and being silent. The Mason stayed silent.

Was he a moral man ? Family first, job second, society third (the Masonic guidelines) ?

Because putting society third, in this case, meant that equipment needed to emergency shut down nuclear plant was unreliable.

So he kept his job and I was blacklisted from manufacturing employment (I was able to JIB contract without any probs) for attempting to whistleblow.

Years later, lung damage had disabled me from contracting in industry by then, my phone rang. Scottish Energy minister wanted my report about backup genny sabotage re the 1998 incident at Dounreay. (Serious nuclear leak due to backup emnergency power failure which triggered the multi billion decommissioning of Dounreay)

At the time of that call I had been refused incapacity benfits because I am too powerful (lift a quarter of a tonne etc) but then refused unemployment benefits too because my lung damage places too many restructions on the work I can seek. Apart from my small War Disablement Pension (for origins of the lung damage) I got no benefits at all. I was doing a bit of clean air work refurbing property with a mate self employed from time to time. That is how we were getting by.

So I had to smile that in all the UK the Scottish Energy Minister phoned me for a report on techniques of sabotage.

Will there now be an increase of child leukemia in Scotland ?

In 1998 Scotland's Hunterston B nuclear power plant came close to Chernobyl criticality due to failure of its backup power.

Family First. Job Second. Society Third.

Left to the Mason you would end up with no society within which they put their families first.

Someone had to be the grown up and it wasn't the mason.

Last year the NHS introduced new security of electrical supply regulations for hospitals. With a good section on new requirements to test and ensure reliability from design to installation of backup gennies. Someone had to be the grown up to get these regs. It wasn't the mason. He would not risk losing his job to do the right thing.

There is no doubt that IF all was going well and IF life threw up no moral challenge or test of backbone then the Mason was a fine performing gent. But he failed the test by my lights.

I judge by what I see.

Fine wordies, like "Virtue", mean nothing unless matched by virtuous deeds. Charity is no such a test as the mason only gives without detriment to his own family. Loyalty is no test because the mason only defends his brothers name if there is no risk to himself.

I have written before about their dopey parking and litterbugging at Ramsgate. They are but men and not necessarily good ones.

eppyone
10-12-2008, 08:46 PM
They are but men and not necessarily good ones.
I'll agree to that.

The rest of it really just sounds like bragging and "oh woes me" type stuff.

Is your arm hurting from patting yourself on the back?

stamaheep
10-12-2008, 09:04 PM
I know of the greatest secret society of all. It's me :D Even I don't know half the time what's going to happen where. :D

Besides that I would vote for the Rosicrucians perhaps. It's kind of like that dude that made the georgia guidestones. Very hard to find. Weirdly his surname was christian. Makes you all think "Rosenkreuz!" because of the cross reference which as far as I've read has nothing to do with the bible. :)


If you go to the Rosicrucian website you can request an informatn pack and membership form. The document they send you is akin to signing up for a magazine subscription, which essentially it is, and they provide you with a past issue of their periodical, which is quite spiritually enlightening. They take an annual fee and thats it, your officially a Rosicrucian. Secret society indeed!:o

elirien
11-12-2008, 10:49 AM
If you go to the Rosicrucian website you can request an informatn pack and membership form. The document they send you is akin to signing up for a magazine subscription, which essentially it is, and they provide you with a past issue of their periodical, which is quite spiritually enlightening. They take an annual fee and thats it, your officially a Rosicrucian. Secret society indeed!:o

Could you post the link. I could google it but I want to be sure it is the site you are speaking about.

thelonious
11-12-2008, 03:36 PM
Could you post the link. I could google it but I want to be sure it is the site you are speaking about.

http://www.amorc.org/

On a side note, this is only one of many separate organizations who claim to be "Rosicrucian". The individual should study the subject, and make up his/her own mind.

elirien
11-12-2008, 03:46 PM
http://www.amorc.org/

On a side note, this is only one of many separate organizations who claim to be "Rosicrucian". The individual should study the subject, and make up his/her own mind.

That's why I asked actually :) Anyone claims to be God or Jesus or what ever. I am just interested in the claims rather then the people themself. Thank you thelonious.

mike martin
11-12-2008, 08:48 PM
The masons on here who deny the 33rd degree exist are either unaware or in denial, in my research i have come countless examples of masonic corruption and satanic rituals,
Fantastic, at last we have someone who has actually done some research and isn't just operating on and repeating the words of other people they don't even know are long dead. This should be good.

i know someone who saw some dead cats in a bin outside a lodge,
Oh! Is that it?

Just more rumours. Now if I wanted to prove something negative about Freemasonry and I found this, I would have got my phone out and taken pictures of these alleged cats. How many cats was it exactly ? Was the bin actually the Lodge's?

You know all the kind of stuff a "researcher" finds out.

i wonder what happens to all the kids they snatch like baby p and this holly and jessica
This just shows what a nasty little coward you really are!

I'd like you to tell me this to my face. Are you near London?

Mike

mike martin
11-12-2008, 08:50 PM
Masonic virtues ?

Chaff all snipped.

More importantly have you written to the UGLE yet with the names, convictions etc? As I suggested some weeks ago?

Mike

boots
11-12-2008, 08:54 PM
This just shows what a nasty little coward you really are!

I'd like you to tell me this to my face. Are you near London?

Mike



Thats a nice attitude :rolleyes:

Bordering on threat.


.

kasalt
11-12-2008, 08:54 PM
Please define the "outer circle of members" and the "inner circle of members," since no mason can ever seem to figure out what that means...How is it that its so secret and so hidden from us "outer circle" masons that we can never find it out, yet you know about it?

Manly P. Hall 33°, Lectures on Ancient Philosophy and Introduction to the Study and Application of Rational Procedure, p. 397:“Freemasonry is a fraternity within a fraternity — an outer organization concealing an inner brotherhood of the elect. Before it is possible to intelligently discuss the origin of the Craft, it is necessary, therefore, to establish the existence of these two separate yet interdependent orders, the one visible and the other invisible...The invisible society is a secret and most august fraternity whose members are dedicated to the service of a mysterious Arcanum Arcanorum. Those Brethren who have essayed to write the history of their Craft have not included in their disquisitions the story of that truly secret inner society which is to the body Freemasonic what the heart is to the body human.”

mike martin
11-12-2008, 09:00 PM
Thats a nice attitude :rolleyes:

Bordering on threat..

Oh and accusing me of being a paedophile because I'm a Mason is perfectly acceptable is it???

Mike

mike martin
11-12-2008, 09:02 PM
Manly P. Hall 33°, Lectures on Ancient Philosophy and Introduction to the Study and Application of Rational Procedure, p. 397:

Hum yes very good!

Except as I have pointed out ad infinitum. Manley Hall wasn't even a Mason when he wrote his books, he was a Theosophist and he mistakenly thought they were the same.

Mike

stewart edwards
11-12-2008, 09:03 PM
I'd like you to tell me this to my face. Are you near London?:eek:


Deap breath Mike deep breath.

You are a better man than that. I know that you are.


Remember I have taken a lot from some of your brothers over the years, some of it face to face and some of it quite forceful, so I know know how you feel.

Be the better man. Illuminate the way through your actions.

I have posted on the net often enough what needs to be done for such allegations against Freemasonry to dwindle away. Getting sucked into a battle will just drain your energy and exacerbate the problem.

Now Mike, please forgive me for offering advice and trying to stop you falling into a place that is not a good place to be.

stewart edwards
11-12-2008, 09:09 PM
Oh and accusing me of being a fucking paedophile because I'm a Mason is perfectly acceptable is it???

MikeNo it is not.

kasalt
11-12-2008, 09:36 PM
Secret societies , why do they have to be secret?

Why do secret societies have to be secret, you ask? These quotes should give you some idea...

Benjamin Disraeli, 1876:"The governments of the present day have to deal not merely with other governments, with emperors, kings and ministers, but also with the secret societies which have everywhere their unscrupulous agents, and can at the last moment upset all the governments' plans. "
Benjamin Disraeli, first Prime Minister of England, in a novel he published in 1844 called Coningsby: "The world is governed by very different personages from what is imagined by those who are not behind the scenes."
John F. Hylan, Mayor of New York (1918-1925), 1922:"The real menace of our republic is this invisible government which like a giant octopus sprawls its slimy length over city, state and nation. Like the octopus of real life, it operates under cover of a self created screen. At the head of this octopus are the Rockefeller Standard Oil interests and a small group of powerful banking houses generally referred to as international bankers. The little coterie of powerful international bankers virtually run the United States government for their own selfish purposes. They practically control both political parties."
David Rockefeller, in an address to a Trilateral Commission or Bilderburg meeting in June of 1991:"We are grateful to the Washington Post, the New York Times, Time magazine and other great publications whose directors have attended our meetings and respected the promises of discretion for almost forty years. It would have been impossible for us to develop our plan for the world if we had been subject to the bright lights of publicity during those years. But, the world is now more sophisticated and prepared to march towards a world-government. The supranational sovereignty of an intellectual elite and world bankers is surely preferable to the National auto determination practiced in past centuries."
AMERICAN MERCURY MAGAZINE, December 1957, pg. 92:"The invisible Money Power is working to control and enslave mankind. It financed Communism, Fascism, Marxism, Zionism, Socialism. All of these are directed to making the United States a member of a World Government..."
Barry Goldwater, U.S. Senator, 1964: "The Trilateral Commission is intended to be the vehicle for multinational consolidation of the commercial and banking interests by seizing control of the political government of the United States...and they will rule the future."Henry Ford, Industrial giant:"The one aim of these financiers is world control by the creation of inextinguishable debts."
James Paul Warburg, February 17, 1950, before the U.S. Senate:"We shall have a World government, whether or not we like it. The only question is whether World government will be achieved by conquest or consent."
President Theodore Roosevelt, April 19, 1906:"Behind the ostensible government sits enthroned an invisible government owing no allegiance and acknowledging no responsibility to the people."
Felix Frankfurter, U.S. Supreme Court Justice:"The real rulers in Washington are invisible, and exercise power from behind the scenes."President George Washington, in a letter to addressed to George Washington Snyder dated October 24, 1798:"It was not my intention to doubt that, the Doctrines of the Illuminati, and principles of Jacobinism had not spread in the United States. On the contrary, no one is more truly satisfied of this fact than I am." (Link to source (http://hubpages.com/hub/Georges_Washington_did_acknowledge_the_Doctrines_o f_the_Illuminati_was_spreading_in_United_States))
Manly P. Hall 33°, Lectures on Ancient Philosophy and Introduction to the Study and Application of Rational Procedure, p. 397:“Freemasonry is a fraternity within a fraternity — an outer organization concealing an inner brotherhood of the elect. Before it is possible to intelligently discuss the origin of the Craft, it is necessary, therefore, to establish the existence of these two separate yet interdependent orders, the one visible and the other invisible...The invisible society is a secret and most august fraternity whose members are dedicated to the service of a mysterious Arcanum Arcanorum. Those Brethren who have essayed to write the history of their Craft have not included in their disquisitions the story of that truly secret inner society which is to the body Freemasonic what the heart is to the body human.”
Dr. Carroll Quigley, Professor of International Relations, Georgetown University Foreign Service School, Washington, D.C., author of the epic "Tragedy and Hope", advocate of one-world government and personal mentor of President William Clinton:"The CFR [Council On Foreign Relations, New York City] is the American Branch of a society which originated in England and believes national directives should be obliterated and one-world rule established. I know of the operations of this network because I have studied it for twenty years, and was permitted in the early 1960's to examine its papers and secret records."
William Fulbright, U.S. Senator, 1963: "The case for government by elites is irrefutable."
Zbigniew Brzezinski, quoted from his book, Between Two Ages: America's Role in the Technetronic Era: "The technetronic era involves the gradual appearance of a more controlled society. Such a society would be dominated by an elite, unrestrained by traditional values. Soon it will be possible to assert almost continuous surveillance over every citizen and maintain up-to-date complete files containing even the most personal information about the citizen. These files will be subject to instantaneous retrieval by the authorities."
Congressman Ron Paul at an event near Austin, Texas on August 30th, 2003:"I think there are 25,000 individuals that have used offices of powers, and they are in our Universities and they are in our Congresses, and they believe in One World Government. And if you believe in One World Government, then you are talking about undermining National Sovereignty and you are talking about setting up something that you could well call a Dictatorship - and those plans are there!"

kasalt
13-12-2008, 04:50 PM
Please define the "outer circle of members" and the "inner circle of members," since no mason can ever seem to figure out what that means. Also, please do tell how you - not even being a member, somehow KNOW that there is some evil, devious hidden agenda? How is it that its so secret and so hidden from us "outer circle" masons that we can never find it out, yet you know about it?

Manly P. Hall 33°, Lectures on Ancient Philosophy and Introduction to the Study and Application of Rational Procedure, Chapter 19, "Rosicrucian and Masonic Origins":“Freemasonry is a fraternity within a fraternity — an outer organization concealing an inner brotherhood of the elect. Before it is possible to intelligently discuss the origin of the Craft, it is necessary, therefore, to establish the existence of these two separate yet interdependent orders, the one visible and the other invisible...The invisible society is a secret and most august fraternity whose members are dedicated to the service of a mysterious Arcanum Arcanorum. Those Brethren who have essayed to write the history of their Craft have not included in their disquisitions the story of that truly secret inner society which is to the body Freemasonic what the heart is to the body human.”
Source: http://the_mystic_light.tripod.com/rosicrucian_and_masonic.htm

Hum yes very good!

Except as I have pointed out ad infinitum. Manley Hall wasn't even a Mason when he wrote his books, he was a Theosophist and he mistakenly thought they were the same.

Mike

I know that MPH (http://www.prs.org/mphbio.htm) had not been formally initiated, but do you have any corroborating evidence for your assertion that he was mistakenly writing about the Theosophical Society, rather than knowingly writing about Freemasonry?

The fact is that Albert Pike said much the same thing in the following quote as MPH did in the quote above when he wrote:"Masonry...conceals its secrets from all but the adepts and sages, or the elect, and uses false explanations and misinterpretations of its symbols to mislead those who deserve to be misled, to conceal the truth, which it calls light, from them and to draw them away from it...The blue degrees (that is the craft degrees) are but the outer courts or portico of the temple. Part of the symbols are displayed there to the initiate, but he is intentionally misled by false interpretations. It is not intended that he shall understand them, but it is intended that he shall imagine he understands them. Their true explication is reserved for the Adepts, the Princes of Masonry...It is well enough for the mass of those called Masons, to imagine that all is contained in the Blue Degrees; and whoso attempts to undeceive them will labor in vain, and without any true reward violate his obligations as an Adept." - Albert Pike, Morals and Dogma

lightindarkness
13-12-2008, 06:20 PM
Manly P. Hall 33°

I'm afraid you've failed - along with everyone else - to answer the questions. A quote written by Manly P. Hall before he even became a mason proves nothing except that Hall had a rather fanciful imagination. I could of course provide you with dozens of quotes from other ACTUAL 33rd degree masons (not that the 33rd means anything, except you people keep obsessing over it) who all say there is no such thing as a high or low level mason.

I still await for someone to tell me exactly what a high level mason is.

A 33rd Degree Mason does not necessarily have more knowledge or speak more authoritatively than other Masons. One might as well assume that Eagle Scouts know more about Scouting policy and history than anyone else or that a Phi Beta Kappa graduate of a University is a more reliable source for university plans and policy than a dean. Scouting does not work this way; universities do not work this way; and Freemasonry does not work this way.

- Dr. S. Brent Morris, 33°, Grand Cross of the Court of Honor

By the way, the COURT OF HONOR is a even higher honor than the 33rd degree, so given the (wrong) standards you are using with degrees, mine out rules yours.

mike martin
13-12-2008, 06:48 PM
Manly P. Hall 33°, Lectures on Ancient Philosophy and Introduction to the Study and Application of Rational Procedure, Chapter 19, "Rosicrucian and Masonic Origins":“Freemasonry is a fraternity within a fraternity — an outer organization concealing an inner brotherhood of the elect. Before it is possible to intelligently discuss the origin of the Craft, it is necessary, therefore, to establish the existence of these two separate yet interdependent orders, the one visible and the other invisible...The invisible society is a secret and most august fraternity whose members are dedicated to the service of a mysterious Arcanum Arcanorum. Those Brethren who have essayed to write the history of their Craft have not included in their disquisitions the story of that truly secret inner society which is to the body Freemasonic what the heart is to the body human.”
Source: http://the_mystic_light.tripod.com/rosicrucian_and_masonic.htm
I found this really funny! You supplied an url where you could have read the original text to ensure that it was a proper accurate quote, yet you did not! Even Hall's words (don't forget he was just guessing) did not fit with the agenda of the person who was supplying you.

The quote actually reads (from your own source):

FREEMASONRY is a fraternity within a fraternity—an outer organization concealing an inner brotherhood of the elect. Before it is possible to intelligently discuss the origin of the Craft, it is necessary, therefore, to establish the existence of these two separate yet interdependent orders, the one visible and the other invisible. The visible society is a splendid camaraderie of "free and accepted" men enjoined to devote themselves to ethical, educational, fraternal, patriotic, and humanitarian concerns. The invisible society is a secret and most august fraternity whose members are dedicated to the service of a mysterious arcanum arcanorum. Those Brethren who have essayed to write the history of their Craft have not included in their disquisitions the story of that truly secret inner society which is to the body Freemasonic what the heart is to the body human. In each generation only a few are accepted into the inner sanctuary of the Work, but these are veritable Princes of the Truth and their sainted names shall be remembered in future ages together with the seers and prophets of the elder world. Though the great initiate-philosophers of Freemasonry can be counted upon one's fingers, yet their power is not to be measured by the achievements of ordinary men. They are dwellers upon the Threshold of the Innermost, Masters of that secret doctrine which forms the invisible foundation of every great theological and rational institution.

The outer history of the Masonic order is one of noble endeavor, altruism, and splendid enterprise; the inner history, one of silent conquest, persecution, and heroic martyrdom. The body of Masonry rose from the guilds of workmen who wandered the face of medieval Europe, but the spirit of Masonry walked with God before the universe was spread out or the scroll of the heavens unrolled. The enthusiasm of the young Mason is the effervescence of a pardonable pride. Let him extol the merits of his Craft, reciting its steady growth, its fraternal spirit, and its worthy undertakings. Let him boast of splendid buildings and an ever-increasing sphere of influence. These are the tangible evidence of power and should rightly set a-flutter the heart of the Apprentice who does not fully comprehend as yet that great strength which abides in silence or that unutterable dignity to be sensed only by those who. have been ''raised'' into the contemplation of the Inner Mystery.

I know that MPH (http://www.prs.org/mphbio.htm) had not been formally initiated, but do you have any corroborating evidence for your assertion that he was mistakenly writing about the Theosophical Society, rather than knowingly writing about Freemasonry?
formally Initiated? Sorry even by Hall's standards you are Initiated or you are not. As someone who is not initiated he was just writing speculatively and weaving Theosophy into what he wrote. This fact he admitted when he was eventually Initiated into Freemasonry.

He was also the author of a masonic curiosity, The Lost Keys of Freemasonry in 1923, more than thirty years before he joined a lodge. The preface of later editions states "At the time I wrote this slender volume, I had just passed my twenty-first birthday, and my only contact with Freemasonry was through a few books commonly available to the public."

The fact is that Albert Pike said much the same thing in the following quote as MPH did in the quote above when he wrote:"Masonry...conceals its secrets from all but the adepts and sages, or the elect, and uses false explanations and misinterpretations of its symbols to mislead those who deserve to be misled, to conceal the truth, which it calls light, from them and to draw them away from it...The blue degrees (that is the craft degrees) are but the outer courts or portico of the temple. Part of the symbols are displayed there to the initiate, but he is intentionally misled by false interpretations. It is not intended that he shall understand them, but it is intended that he shall imagine he understands them. Their true explication is reserved for the Adepts, the Princes of Masonry...It is well enough for the mass of those called Masons, to imagine that all is contained in the Blue Degrees; and whoso attempts to undeceive them will labor in vain, and without any true reward violate his obligations as an Adept." - Albert Pike, Morals and Dogma


Except, of course, what you have reproduced is not actually what Pike wrote! It is, in fact, two seperate quotes from either end of an 800+ page philosophical book and unsuprisingly they were talking about different things. This is why I keep suggesting that those who insist on using Pike to shore up their theories should actually read the book themselves rather than regurgitating what they have been spoon fed by people with an agenda.

Here are the actual quotes in their original context and I have made the bits that have been extracted and fed to you bold. I think that once you have read them that even you if you are honest will be able to see that Pike and Hall were talking about different things.:

Page 104-05, Pike talking about how Freemasonry conceals its secrets from outsiders not Masons:

Masonry, like all the Religions, all the Mysteries, Hermeticism and Alchemy, conceals its secrets from all except the Adepts and Sages, or the Elect, and uses false explanations and misinterpretations of its symbols to mislead those who deserve only to be misled; to conceal the Truth, which it calls Light, from them, and to draw them away from it. Truth is not for those who are unworthy or unable to receive it, or would pervert it. So God Himself incapacitates many men, by color-blindness, to distinguish colors, and leads the masses away from the highest Truth, giving them the power to attain only so much of it as it is profitable to them to know. Every age has had a religion suited to its capacity.

The Teachers, even of Christianity, are, in general, the most ignorant of the true meaning of that which they teach. There is no book of which so little is known as the Bible. To most who read it, it is as incomprehensible as the Sohar.

So Masonry jealously conceals its secrets, and intentionally leads conceited interpreters astray. There is no sight under the sun more pitiful and ludicrous at once, than the spectacle of the Prestons and the Webbs, not to mention the later incarnations of Dullness and Commonplace, undertaking to "explain" the old symbols of Masonry, and adding to and "improving" them, or inventing new ones.

Then on page 818 - 819, we find Pike talking about the historical Knights Templar:

Thus the Order of Knights of the Temple was at its very origin devoted to the cause of opposition to the tiara of Rome and the crowns of Kings, and the Apostolate of Kabalistic Gnosticism was vested in its chiefs. For Saint John himself was the Father of the Gnostics, and the current translation of his polemic against the heretical of his Sect and the pagans who denied that Christ was the Word, is throughout a misrepresentation, or misunderstanding at least, of the whole Spirit of that Evangel.

"The tendencies and tenets of the Order were enveloped in profound mystery, and it externally professed the most perfect orthodoxy. The Chiefs alone knew the aim of the Order: the Subalterns followed them without distrust.

"To acquire influence and wealth, then to intrigue, and at need to fight, to establish the Johannite or Gnostic and Kabalistic dogma, were the object and means proposed to the initiated Brethren. The Papacy and the rival monarchies, they said to them, are sold and bought in these days, become corrupt, and to-morrow, perhaps, will destroy each other. All that will become the heritage of the Temple: the World will soon come to us for its Sovereigns and Pontiffs. We shall constitute the equilibrium of the Universe, and be rulers over the Masters of the World.

"The Templars, like all other Secret Orders and Associations, had two doctrines, one concealed and reserved for the Masters, which was Johannism; the other public, which was the Roman Catholic. Thus they deceived the adversaries whom they sought to supplant. Hence Free-Masonry, vulgarly imagined to have begun with the Dionysian Architects or the German Stone-workers, adopted Saint John the Evangelist as one of its patrons, associating with him, in order not to arouse the suspicions of Rome, Saint John the Baptist, and thus covertly proclaiming itself the child of the Kabalah and Essenism together."

[For the Johannism of the Adepts was the Kabalah of the earlier Gnostics, degenerating afterward into those heretical forms which Gnosticism developed, so that even Manes had his followers among them. Many adopted his doctrines of the two Principles, the recollection of which is perpetuated by the handle of the dagger and the tesserated pavement or floor of the Lodge, stupidly called "the Indented Tessel," and represented by great hanging tassels, when it really means a tesserated floor (from the Latin tessera) of white and black lozenges, with a necessarily denticulated or indented border or edging. And wherever, in the higher Degrees, the two colors white and black, are in juxtaposition, the two Principles of Zoroaster and Manes are alluded to. With others the doctrine became a mystic Pantheism, descended from that of the Brahmins, and even pushed to an idolatry of Nature and hatred of every revealed dogma.

[To all this the absurd reading of the established Church, taking literally the figurative, allegorical, and mythical language of a collection of Oriental books of different ages, directly and inevitably led. The same result long after followed the folly of regarding the Hebrew books as if they had been written by the unimaginative, hard, practical intellect of the England of James the First and the bigoted stolidity of Scottish Presbyterianism.]

"The better to succeed and win partisans, the Templars sympathized with regrets for dethroned creeds and encouraged the hopes of new worships, promising to all liberty of conscience and a new orthodoxy that should be the synthesis of all the persecuted creeds."

[It is absurd to suppose that men of intellect adored a monstrous idol called Baphomet, or recognized Mahomet as an inspired prophet. Their symbolism, invented ages before, to conceal what it was dangerous to avow, was of course misunderstood by those who were not adepts, and to their enemies seemed to be pantheistic. The calf of gold, made by Aaron for the Israelites, was but one of the oxen under the laver of bronze, and the Karobim on the Propitiatory, misunderstood. The symbols of the wise always become the idols of the ignorant multitude. What the Chiefs of the Order really believed and taught, is indicated to the Adepts by the hints contained in the high Degrees of Free-Masonry, and by the symbols which only the Adepts understand.

The Blue Degrees are but the outer court or portico of the Temple. Part of the symbols are displayed there to the Initiate, but he is intentionally misled by false interpretations. It is not intended that he shall understand them; but it is intended that he shall imagine he understands them. Their true explication is reserved for the Adepts, the Princes of Masonry. The whole body of the Royal and Sacerdotal Art was hidden so carefully, centuries since, in the High Degrees, as that it is even yet impossible to solve many of the enigmas which they contain. It is well enough for the mass of those called Masons, to imagine that all is contained in the Blue Degrees; and whoso attempts to undeceive them will labor in vain, and without any true reward violate his obligations as an Adept. Masonry is the veritable Sphinx, buried to the head in the sands heaped round it by the ages.]

The seeds of decay were sown in the Order of the Temple at its origin. Hypocrisy is a mortal disease. It had conceived a great work which it was incapable of executing, because it knew neither humility nor personal abnegation, because Rome was then invincible, and because the later Chiefs of the Order did not comprehend its mission. Moreover, the Templars were in general uneducated, and capable only of wielding the sword, with no qualifications for governing, and at need enchaining, that queen of the world called Opinion." [The doctrines of the Chiefs would, if expounded to the masses, have seemed to them the babblings of folly. The symbols of the wise are the idols of the vulgar, or else as meaningless as the hieroglyphics of Egypt to the nomadic Arabs. There must always be a common-place interpretation for the mass of Initiates, of the symbols that are eloquent to the Adepts.]

Hughes de Payens himself had not that keen and far-sighted intellect nor that grandeur of purpose which afterward distinguished the military founder of another soldiery that became formidable to kings. The Templars were unintelligent and therefore unsuccessful Jesuits.

Their watchword was, to become wealthy, in order to buy the world. They became so, and in 1312 they possessed in Europe.

So now that you can read all of their words, would you still say they were talking about the same thing?

Here is a link to an on-line version of M&D that I'm sure you (if you're not just a mouth-piece) will find of interest: http://www.sacred-texts.com/mas/md/index.htm

Mike

rickcard
13-12-2008, 08:13 PM
Mike

UGLE raised an inquiry in 1998 as a result of Margaret Mortlock successfully suing George Richard Maison for libel. (Aldwych High Court)

It is some years since I wrote to UGLE saying that I would be happy to meet all Thanet Freemasons who work for the backup generator company.

I never got a reply.

If you speak with the Master of City of London National Guard you can get an independent take on my concerns. He knows George Richard Maison and alleged associates the Backup Generator saboteur and the civilian security guard (with the alleged forged record of army service with which he cleared vetting) at the bombed 1989 Deal Royal Marines School of Music.

Maison has a criminal record for common assault (a road rage incident) at Pontefract. He was exposed as a liar in teh cross examination of HM Coroner Jack Rice at the 1979 Inquest into the death of his first wife. (This is a case in which Thanet CID refused HM Coroner request to re-open in 1996). He was found guilty of libel in 1998.

In 1996 Kent Police took his firearms certificate off him after complaints of threats to kill from Mrs Mortlock who was suing him for libel. (The lady who later raised UGLE inquiry)

In 1996 Mrs Mortlock aged eighty was beaten up on her doorstep by a ski masked combat suited man. Police refused to link this case to threats to drop her libel action and also allagedly refused a confession to this assault from Anthony Swindells the later convicted murderer of Ken Speakman (A Freemason) wartime MI5 officer and retired Ramsgate town clerk.

As I understand it in 1998 Mrs Mortlock had crime complaints, of perjury in the High Court, refused. This was against Freemasons William Hayton and George Maison. As far as I know after UGLE inquiry neither left Freemasonry.

I believe that if you speak to a past master of Emergency Services Lodge (Ex Army PTI and now retired Kent Ambulanceman) who was a hard man in his time. I think that the ex PTI may have given Maison a "Physical reprimand" known colloquially as "A slap".

To be fair to the ex PTI he has met with our nephew (who is a Staff PTI now in Army Physical Training Corps) who has expressed an interest in your brotherhood. I think our nephew will be considering it over the next two years as he is very busy for the next few months which will be followed by being Staff PTI to a regiment on active service (when the Staff PTI goes as Colonel bodyguard.) And our nephew was at a Masonic barbecue with the Emergency Services Lodge guys and they never once said about his uncle the well known critic of Thanet Freemasons.

If UGLE want to ask an electrical engineer member to read the technical report I sent via my MP to the Home Secretary. About unreliability of backup generators. how in some instances this is due to sabotage, methods of sabotage and how it outwitted the test and QC regime and recommendations (which are mostly technical but one about building a return to the expertise in depth that our reserve services used to provide)

I have given you a bit of wind up re litter bugging at the Ramsgate lodge.

But if UGLE want to take a look and give the report to any properly qualified Freemason to appraise. I am up for it. I wrote the report as a basis for argument. I doubt I will be 100% technically right in the explanations. But I am not less than 80% right.

Someone on this thread wrote about me patting myself on the back.

When the Petbow backup genny failed in 1995 (an installation I had reported via Roger Evans MP) it cut power to post op ICU and a child patient died. That is not cause to pat ones self on the back. That is cause for self recrimination and to wonder if I had been a more effective individual could I have saved that family from the tragedy.

So I am a bit with you Mike. I am a wind up merchant so really have no case to get angry. Internet hardmen can sap the old morale a bit. If you meet up with the Master of City of London National Guard ask him what chance he would give an internet hardman against me !

If you PM me about UGLE as I don't always visit the threads. I look at homepage to see if I have a PM.

By the way the City of London National Guard Master is an electrical engineer.

mike martin
13-12-2008, 09:06 PM
UGLE raised an inquiry in 1998 as a result of Margaret Mortlock successfully suing George Richard Maison for libel. (Aldwych High Court)

Maison has a criminal record for common assault (a road rage incident) at Pontefract. He was exposed as a liar in teh cross examination of HM Coroner Jack Rice at the 1979 Inquest into the death of his first wife. (This is a case in which Thanet CID refused HM Coroner request to re-open in 1996). He was found guilty of libel in 1998.

As I understand it in 1998 Mrs Mortlock had crime complaints, of perjury in the High Court, refused. This was against Freemasons William Hayton and George Maison. As far as I know after UGLE inquiry neither left Freemasonry.

Richard,
I've had a read of your BLOG (I'm sure I've mentioned that before), however you need to stop blurring the abilities of the UGLE.

The UGLE is a Fraternity it has neither the inclination, ability, manpower or authority to investigate these kind of things.

Asking the GL to organise meetings between you and people who work for a specific Company is never going to happen because of the reasons above.

As I recommended to you before if you just plainly write to the UGLE giving them the names and the dates of convictions it will act to remove through the membership department (if members) these people form membership. That being the complete total of its ability.

Mike

stewart edwards
13-12-2008, 09:25 PM
As I recommended to you before if you just plainly write to the UGLE giving them the names and the dates of convictions it will act to remove through the membership department (if members) these people form membership. That being the complete total of its ability.
Sadly Mike it could do much more than this.

Earlier today I read Lord Northamptons 10 dec speech from the UGLE website and quite frankly if his words were taken on board by more of your membership you would find that with more members taking what they have learnt in lodge into the wider world, there would be far greater respect and trust of Freemasons. This is not just an UGLE issue but it is one that Lord Northampton did touch on in his speech.

Words of guidance from past masters to those who are erring in everyday life can work wonders. Education and understanding of ritual as opposed to just memorisation thereof again could help strength UGLE in this regard.

UGLE can inspire, it can as Lord Northampton noted open hearts, but it will only do this if it can find the inner courage to work from its own heart.

Mike UGLE is perhaps the one best placed to make a real difference. I for one keep my fingers crossed that your Grand Master and the new pro GM can build upon what it has achieved in recent years and truly illuminate once again. When/if it does you will find that there will be far fewer problems both internally and externally.

But Mike, in essence, UGLE can do far more than simply expell members who get convicted. It can guide, lead, support its members more as they travel on their personal journey through life. Though I accept that this is a lodge thing not a GL thing. UGLE I guess needs to decide if it is a membership fraternity or an initiatic fraternity, unless it has already decided that it is a membership fraternity obviously.

I strongly suspect that many other GLS, including some in amity with UGLE would be more proactive that you note UGLE is (Masonic courts etc). But equally I recognise the importance of UGLE not getting it wrong.

Just the personal opinions of an UGLE reject.

mike martin
13-12-2008, 09:51 PM
Sadly Mike it could do much more than this.

But Mike, in essence, UGLE can do far more than simply expell members who get convicted. It can guide, lead, support its members more as they travel on their personal journey through life. Though I accept that this is a lodge thing not a GL thing. UGLE I guess needs to decide if it is a membership fraternity or an initiatic fraternity, unless it has already decided that it is a membership fraternity obviously.

Stewart, You have to recognise that I am speaking in absolutes and about the UGLE itself. The UGLE has none of the powers that you would like it to have, when it is broken down this power can only lie within each and every one of its individual and private Lodges. I have many times taken you to task about painting the UGLE with a brush charged from a handful of Lodges and/or members. Grand Lodge can only try through its Officers (such as Spenney) to set an example that will hopefully filter down to those Lodges.

The main problem is that it is possible (as happens) that people who do not meet the standards laid down by the Grand Lodge for membership are accepted into Lodges on the sayso/recommendation of members who may not know the full extent of their outside activities. In these circumstances the UGLE will act centrally to remove them from its membership, once identified.

It is not true (despite the rumours) that the UGLE is able to vet people for membership (btw I believed this when I joined). Acceptance is based solely on the information supplied on the form and the opinion of the Past Masters who interview a prospective Candidate.

Mike

stewart edwards
13-12-2008, 10:00 PM
Grand Lodge can only try through its Officers (such as Spenney) to set an example that will hopefully filter down to those Lodges.Agreed.

But there is one further step in this that Lord Northampton did touch upon in his speech and from what I can see is where UGLE is struggling. The hearts of too many of its members simply do not appear to me to be open. Their heads may well be, but their hearts sadly no. There is plenty of evidince of this on Masonic forums at times.

I have helped open the hearts of a few Freemasons to things that they were missing, I know that for they have told me. If I can do it, UGLE can do it (more effectively). It really is not that difficult as long as you have members who dont just see Freemasonry as a social club.

Added: Lord Northampton explains it well in his speech.

kasalt
15-12-2008, 06:12 AM
I found this really funny! You supplied an url where you could have read the original text to ensure that it was a proper accurate quote, yet you did not! Even Hall's words (don't forget he was just guessing) did not fit with the agenda of the person who was supplying you.

As a matter of fact, I did read the original text to ensure that it was a proper quote, and I do not see any discrepancy between what I posted and what you posted from the source I linked to in my post.

As someone who is not initiated he was just writing speculatively and weaving Theosophy into what he wrote. This fact he admitted when he was eventually Initiated into Freemasonry.

Any links to a direct, sourced quote for that assertion?

meksar
15-12-2008, 04:59 PM
This Mike Martin is like all other mason's a selfish misguided individual, the masons do their charity work to keep up appearances and deceive the public into thinking all this talk of child abuse/sacrifice rituals taking part of the peak of it is a load of nonsense.

eastbeast
15-12-2008, 05:05 PM
This Mike Martin is like all other mason's a selfish misguided individual, the masons do their charity work to keep up appearances and deceive the public into thinking all this talk of child abuse/sacrifice rituals taking part of the peak of it is a load of nonsense.


You couldn't get any further away from the truth if you took the longest journey ever taken.

I am amazed you can even think the way you do.

keystone
15-12-2008, 05:13 PM
I am amazed you can even think the way you do.Are you? In context the last 5 words of his post are the truest he's ever likely to speak though.

mike martin
16-12-2008, 12:07 AM
As a matter of fact, I did read the original text to ensure that it was a proper quote, and I do not see any discrepancy between what I posted and what you posted from the source I linked to in my post.
That's because you want it to fit with your view, just reading the line that was removed and the following paragraph show that he is talking in a "philosophical" sense. He's not talking about some secret bit of Freemasonry but a kind of Freemason that most don't aspire to be.

I notice that you haven't come back about the "alleged" Pike quote, does that mean the fog is lifting from your eyes?

Any links to a direct, sourced quote for that assertion?
Err no. Mainly because he's dead and no one was concerned about his books back then and no one bothered to ask him. However, the quote that I supplied previously was what he had added to his books when he became a Freemason that along with the fact that he wrote 5 books mentioning Freemasonry, the other 70 books had no mention of Freemasonry tends to add weight to my assertion that he was not some kind of Masonic guru as some of you seem to believe, he was just an interested outsider.

Mike

mike martin
16-12-2008, 12:09 AM
This Mike Martin is like all other mason's a selfish misguided individual, the masons do their charity work to keep up appearances and deceive the public into thinking all this talk of child abuse/sacrifice rituals taking part of the peak of it is a load of nonsense.

Just so as we understand each other. I will not be responding to you any further as you are an idiot.

Mike

kasalt
16-12-2008, 01:40 AM
That's because you want it to fit with your view, just reading the line that was removed and the following paragraph show that he is talking in a "philosophical" sense. He's not talking about some secret bit of Freemasonry but a kind of Freemason that most don't aspire to be.

I'm willing to accept that I misunderstood his point--if I can be convinced that I did, in fact, misunderstand his point. I'm still not convinced either way yet.

I notice that you haven't come back about the "alleged" Pike quote, does that mean the fog is lifting from your eyes?

See reply above. Yes, context is vital to a full and proper understanding an isolated quote, so thank you for providing the context. However, I do not see how the context of Pike's quote nullifies the fact of what he said in my isolated quote. Pike wrote point blank in the present tense that the initiates to the first three degrees of Freemasonry are intentionally misled about their true meaning, although they are led to believe that they understand them fully. Pike also says that the true meaning of the blue degrees is known only to the "Adepts, the Princes of Masonry". Who are these "Adepts"?

Err no. Mainly because he's dead and no one was concerned about his books back then and no one bothered to ask him. However, the quote that I supplied previously was what he had added to his books when he became a Freemason that along with the fact that he wrote 5 books mentioning Freemasonry, the other 70 books had no mention of Freemasonry tends to add weight to my assertion that he was not some kind of Masonic guru as some of you seem to believe, he was just an interested outsider.

I'm not sure that Hall was attempting to nullify the veracity of his early works when he wrote that comment. Of course, reading the full quote in context might help to clarify his intended meaning, which is why I asked for a link. But short of further information to the contrary, in my opinion, the fact that his only contact with Freemasonry when he wrote his first book on the subject was through a few books commonly available to the public says a lot to me in favor of him and his writings, rather than against them. In my estimation, Hall was an old soul with a highly evolved intellect. Perhaps Hall had direct communication with the "Adepts" of Freemasonry from an early age and it was they who informed him, helping him write his books. Or perhaps he was a reincarnated 'adept' himself, steeped in Masonic knowledge from a previous incarnation, and was able to recall the information. Wild speculation perhaps, but I can do little else.

meksar
16-12-2008, 02:41 AM
All masons have to believe in a god to be initiated into the craft, this is simply because if they believe in a god they must believe in the devil. Therefore they are being groomed to worship the serpent lucifer as they pass each ritual/initiation ceremony. Freemasonry has a dark history and i would advise any free thinking people to avoid it whorish charms because you do not want to be part of the kabbilistic evilarchy controlling not just the west but increasingly the world.

lightindarkness
16-12-2008, 03:13 AM
All masons have to believe in a god to be initiated into the craft, this is simply because if they believe in a god they must believe in the devil. Therefore they are being groomed to worship the serpent lucifer as they pass each ritual/initiation ceremony. Freemasonry has a dark history and i would advise any free thinking people to avoid it whorish charms because you do not want to be part of the kabbilistic evilarchy controlling not just the west but increasingly the world.

Talk about a leap of logic.

First off, just because you believe in god does not at all mean that you believe in a devil. Many religions have no concept of a evil figure that you could call a devil. It doesn't exist in at least 2 of the 3 world religions - Hindusim and Buddhism.

Second, yet again I must remind you that this fanatical obsession with Lucifer is based on absolutely no understanding of Christianity. There is no supernatural being called Lucifer.

Third, there is no worship of anything or anyone in freemasonry. Its a fraternity. Project your satan worshiping fears onto something else.

Finally, Freemasonry actually has quite a history of open thinking, which is why people like you despise it. It has been persecuted by dictators and totalitarians because they are terrified by the liberty and equality of men all masons believe in.

rr_x
16-12-2008, 09:49 AM
Secret societies , why do they have to be secret?

Why can't do-gooders not see the stupidity in denouncing secrecy yet demanding privacy?

They want the secret societies to disclose their information yet cry when the government invades their privacy. They use the same excuse they normally criticise: 'if you've got nothing to hide....' Classic doublethink.

There is little to no difference between privacy and secrecy. Let them be if you demand to be free.

kasalt
16-12-2008, 10:06 AM
Why can't do-gooders not see the stupidity in denouncing secrecy yet demanding privacy?

"Secrecy is the beginning of tyranny." - Robert A. Heinlein

“Secrecy is the freedom tyrants dream of.” - Bill Moyers

“Secrecy, once accepted, becomes an addiction.” - Edward Teller

“Where secrecy or mystery begins, vice or roguery is not far off.” - Samuel Johnson

“The best weapon of a dictatorship is secrecy, but the best weapon of a democracy should be the weapon of openness.” - Niels Bohr

"Everything secret degenerates, even the administration of justice; nothing is safe that does not show how it can bear discussion and publicity." - Lord Acton

“The very word 'secrecy' is repugnant in a free and open society; and we are as a people inherently and historically opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.” - John F. Kennedy

slartibartfast
16-12-2008, 10:19 AM
"Secrecy is the beginning of tyranny." - Robert A. Heinlein

“Secrecy is the freedom tyrants dream of.” - Bill Moyers

“Secrecy, once accepted, becomes an addiction.” - Edward Teller

“Where secrecy or mystery begins, vice or roguery is not far off.” - Samuel Johnson

“The best weapon of a dictatorship is secrecy, but the best weapon of a democracy should be the weapon of openness.” - Niels Bohr

"Everything secret degenerates, even the administration of justice; nothing is safe that does not show how it can bear discussion and publicity." - Lord Acton

“The very word 'secrecy' is repugnant in a free and open society; and we are as a people inherently and historically opposed to secret societies, to secret oaths, and to secret proceedings.” - John F. Kennedy

...and now apply that to your personal details. From your quotes, I would assume you would be quite happy to have the government keep an open database, with universal read access, with the entire population's details on. Details such as address, telephone number, job, NI Number, Date of Birth, Sexual Preference, Shoe Size, Hair Colour, memberships of any organisation etc...

Oh and to quote some more Heinlein:-

"In a society in which it is a moral offense to be different from your neighbor your only escape is never to let them find out.

If "everybody knows" such-and-such, then it ain't so, by at least ten thousand to one.

A touchstone to determine the actual worth of an "intellectual"- find out how he feels about astrology."

kasalt
16-12-2008, 10:56 AM
...and now apply that to your personal details. From your quotes, I would assume you would be quite happy to have the government keep an open database, with universal read access, with the entire population's details on. Details such as address, telephone number, job, NI Number, Date of Birth, Sexual Preference, Shoe Size, Hair Colour, memberships of any organisation etc...

Such information is already available, though I'm not sure why a person's sexual orientation needs to be on the list unless they have been convicted of a sexual offence.

When I bought a new car a couple of years ago, the manufacturer sent me a survey. One of the questions asked for my sexual orientation. I took offense and refused to answer that question, because wtf does my sexual orientation have to do with buying a car?

In my opinion, there is a vast difference between personal privacy and institutionalized secrecy. No one is harmed by personal privacy, but institutionalized secrecy can lead to undue influence or control over others. Therefore, personal privacy protects individual rights, but institutionalized secrecy can threaten them.

mike martin
16-12-2008, 11:13 AM
I'm willing to accept that I misunderstood his point--if I can be convinced that I did, in fact, misunderstand his point. I'm still not convinced either way yet.
Well the only way to be convinced about what he was saying one way or the other, is to sit down and read it yourself. This is far more reliable than relying on other people to tell you what it means.

See reply above. Yes, context is vital to a full and proper understanding an isolated quote, so thank you for providing the context. However, I do not see how the context of Pike's quote nullifies the fact of what he said in my isolated quote. Pike wrote point blank in the present tense that the initiates to the first three degrees of Freemasonry are intentionally misled about their true meaning, although they are led to believe that they understand them fully. [/FONT][/COLOR][COLOR=black][FONT=Verdana]Pike also says that the true meaning of the blue degrees is known only to the "Adepts, the Princes of Masonry". Who are these "Adepts"?

I would suggest that you re-read the fragments that I supplied (or better still the whole book) because if you think that a cobbled together set of words, extracted from a very large book, still meant anything after you read it you clearly didn't read it.


I'm not sure that Hall was attempting to nullify the veracity of his early works when he wrote that comment. Of course, reading the full quote in context might help to clarify his intended meaning, which is why I asked for a link. But short of further information to the contrary, in my opinion, the fact that his only contact with Freemasonry when he wrote his first book on the subject was through a few books commonly available to the public says a lot to me in favor of him and his writings, rather than against them. In my estimation, Hall was an old soul with a highly evolved intellect. Perhaps Hall had direct communication with the "Adepts" of Freemasonry from an early age and it was they who informed him, helping him write his books. Or perhaps he was a reincarnated 'adept' himself, steeped in Masonic knowledge from a previous incarnation, and was able to recall the information. Wild speculation perhaps, but I can do little else.

I'm beginning to suspect that you are baiting me or just not bothering to read what I write.

Mike

rr_x
16-12-2008, 11:22 AM
In my opinion, there is a vast difference between personal privacy and institutionalized secrecy. No one is harmed by personal privacy, but institutionalized secrecy can lead to undue influence or control over others. Therefore, personal privacy protects individual rights, but institutionalized secrecy can threaten them.

Some definitions (according to dictionary.com):

Secrecy:
1. the state or condition of being secret, hidden, or concealed: a meeting held in secrecy.
2. privacy; retirement; seclusion.
3. ability to keep a secret.
4. the habit or characteristic of being secretive; reticence.

Notice 2.

Privacy:
1. the state of being private; retirement or seclusion.
2. the state of being free from intrusion or disturbance in one's private life or affairs: the right to privacy.
3. secrecy.
4. Archaic. a private place.

Notice 3.

Opinion (because you said 'in my opinion'):
1. a belief or judgment that rests on grounds insufficient to produce complete certainty.
2. a personal view, attitude, or appraisal.
3. the formal expression of a professional judgment: to ask for a second medical opinion.
4. Law. the formal statement by a judge or court of the reasoning and the principles of law used in reaching a decision of a case.
5. a judgment or estimate of a person or thing with respect to character, merit, etc.: to forfeit someone's good opinion.
6. a favorable estimate; esteem: I haven't much of an opinion of him.

Notice 1 as it is most relevant to your post.

According to thesaurus.com words that can be substituted for secrecy:

clandestineness, confidence, confidentiality, covertness, dark, darkness, furtiveness, hiding, hush, isolation, mystery, privacy, reticence, retirement, seclusion, secretiveness, secretness, silence, solitude, stealth, suppression, surreptitiousness

Substitutes for privacy:

aloofness, clandestineness, concealment, confidentiality, isolation, one’s space, penetralia, privateness, quiet, retirement, retreat, seclusion, separateness, separation, sequestration, solitude

Before you mention that secrecy is not in the list for privacy, go check what word that site uses to define privacy....

As for your quotes substitute the word 'privacy' for 'secrecy' and see if they still have the same appeal.

Classic doublethink - you remind me of this lady:

Giving Up Liberty for Freedom - YouTube

slartibartfast
16-12-2008, 11:34 AM
Such information is already available, though I'm not sure why a person's sexual orientation needs to be on the list unless they have been convicted of a sexual offence.

Totally agree. It is an example of information that people don't want other people to have, because there is no need.


In my opinion, there is a vast difference between personal privacy and institutionalized secrecy.

Again, I agree and as other Mason's have said on here the only secrets are the modes of recognition. Those modes of recognition are similar to a works pass, designed to allow people with a requirement and right to be in a certain place. Many places of work dictate that those passes should not be worn in public so that counterfeits cannot be made (and we are not talking high security environments here). This is not "Institutionalized secrecy", this is Institutional Privacy.

Masonic Processes (i.e. How things are done) are not secret, they have been exposed since at least the early 1700s, ritual books are available from all good booksellers and other books with guidance and explanation are freely available.
Masonic Data i.e. Members, Modes of Recognition etc. are not as available as it is private information (Though there are Year Books and information on Websites which give you contact information).

Fundamentally, any group of people whether an organisation or just a loose group of like minded individuals are free to assemble and are also free not to tell anyone what happened at those assemblies (this is different for public bodies as they are theoretically working for the public). Whether it be at Masonic meetings, David Icke meetings or just a bunch of guys down the pub.
It is a basic human freedom.

Fear of the unknown (whether good or bad) is a basic human trait, what causes real problems is when unknown is always equated to bad. None of us can know everything in the world, so for sanities sake most of us accept that situation and move on.

kasalt
16-12-2008, 12:03 PM
As for your quotes substitute the word 'privacy' for 'secrecy' and see if they still have the same appeal.

Classic doublethink...

"Doublethink"??? LOL...:rolleyes:

You are obviously not aware of the distinctions between the two terms. Here, read these and get back to me:

Secrecy: Secrecy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Privacy: Privacy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

mike martin
16-12-2008, 12:27 PM
I'm not sure that Hall was attempting to nullify the veracity of his early works when he wrote that comment. Of course, reading the full quote in context might help to clarify his intended meaning, which is why I asked for a link. But short of further information to the contrary, in my opinion, the fact that his only contact with Freemasonry when he wrote his first book on the subject was through a few books commonly available to the public says a lot to me in favor of him and his writings, rather than against them.
Only an idiot would try to nullify his own money spinning work. However, what Hall did was made plain that he had very little idea of what Freemasonry actually was and that as he had studied comparative religion he felt it was linked.

Just for you, I have typed it up as written in full:

PREFACE TO THE TENTH EDITION

It is gratifying indeed that after more than forty years of continuous publication, and 30,000 copies having been printed, the demand for this little book justifies a new edition. At the time I wrote this slender volume, I had just passed my twenty-first birthday, and my only contact with Freemasonry was through a few books commonly available to the public.
It was from the study of comparative religion that I first became aware of the secret philosophical schools and societies of the ancient world. It was not possible to contemplate the State Mysteries of Egypt, Greece, India and Persia and not be profoundly impressed by the nobility of their teachings, the beauty and solemnity of their rites and ceremonies, and the profound meanings of their symbols, emblems and initiatory rituals. It became evident to me that these sacred institutions and colleges were the custodians of a universal wisdom, and conferred upon their initiates the keys to a sublime science or art dedicated to the regeneration of man and the reformation of human society. Moved by this conviction, I wrote The Lost Keys of Freemasonry.
Many changes have been wrought in the two score years since this writing came to print. A sickly sophistication threatens our way of life, and the very survival of human culture is at hazard. Through long years of confusion, depression, war and tyranny, Freemasonry has stood for the Fatherhood of God and the brotherhood of man. It has defended the right of every man to receive a proper education. It has taught respect for Constitutional government. It has sought to unite men in a fraternity of good works – these being the proper labours of a Master Mason.
Feeling that the time had come for all men who believed in the dignity of the human soul and the utility of enlightened ethics to stand and be counted, I petitioned for membership in the Masonic Order in 1954. In November of that year I was raised in Jewel lodge No.374, F.& A. M., San Francisco, California. A year later I took the Scottish Rite Degrees, and am a member of the San Francisco Consistory MRS. In 1961 I received the Investiture of Knight Commander of the Court of Honour.
I am happy to say that the admiration I had so long held for the Masonic Order was increased and deepened by a more intimate knowledge of its principles and a closer personal communion with my Brethren.

Manly P. Hall 32° K.C.C.H
Los Angeles, 1967


In my estimation, Hall was an old soul with a highly evolved intellect. Perhaps Hall had direct communication with the "Adepts" of Freemasonry from an early age and it was they who informed him, helping him write his books. Or perhaps he was a reincarnated 'adept' himself, steeped in Masonic knowledge from a previous incarnation, and was able to recall the information. Wild speculation perhaps, but I can do little else
Unlikely! However, he was definitely a brilliant philosopher and his comparative works such as "The Secret Teachings of All Ages" are interesting reads. It's just such a shame that a certain group of people try to twist his words rather than just reading and possibly learning from them.

Mike

kasalt
16-12-2008, 12:49 PM
Only an idiot would try to nullify his own money spinning work. However, what Hall did was made plain that he had very little idea of what Freemasonry actually was and that as he had studied comparative religion he felt it was linked.

Just for you, I have typed it up as written in full:

You didn't have to do that, but thanks much for going through the effort, Mike. Much appreciated. I must say, the full quote read very much like what I expected. In fact, reading that was like a deja vu experience for me. I felt as though I'd read it before, and yet I'm sure I haven't...:confused:

Unlikely! However, he was definitely a brilliant philosopher and his comparative works such as "The Secret Teachings of All Ages" are interesting reads. It's just such a shame that a certain group of people try to twist his words rather than just reading and possibly learning from them.

I'm not trying to twist Hall's words, I'm trying to understand them.

We find ourselves in rather ironic positions, I think. Me defending Hall, you criticising him...

Awkward, isn't it?! :D

rr_x
16-12-2008, 12:52 PM
Read the first paragraph of each.

Secrecy:

Secrecy or furtiveness is the practice of sharing information among a group of people, which can be as small as one person, while hiding it from all others. That which is kept hidden is known as the secret.

Secrecy is often controversial, depending on the content of the secret, the group or people keeping the secret, and the motivation for secrecy. Secrecy by government entities is often decried as excessive or in promotion of poor operation; excessive revelation of information on individuals can conflict with virtues of privacy and confidentiality.

Privacy:

Privacy is the ability of an individual or group to seclude themselves or information about themselves and thereby reveal themselves selectively. The boundaries and content of what is considered private differ among cultures and individuals, but share basic common themes. Privacy is sometimes related to anonymity, the wish to remain unnoticed or unidentified in the public realm. When something is private to a person, it usually means there is something within them that is considered inherently special or personally sensitive. The degree to which private information is exposed therefore depends on how the public will receive this information, which differs between places and over time. Privacy can be seen as an aspect of security — one in which trade-offs between the interests of one group and another can become particularly clear.

Doublethink definition:

The power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them.

You are against secrecy and for privacy yet dictionary definitions use each word to describe the other. Instead of distinctions lets look at similarities, black or white you are still human.

Notice how 'excessive revelation of information on individuals can conflict with virtues of privacy'. Notice how privacy is 'the wish to remain unnoticed or unidentified in the public realm' something secret societies practice. See how secrecy is for 'a group of people, which can be as small as one person' and privacy is 'the ability of an individual or group to seclude themselves'. Privacy is an aspect of security - most secret societies were secret/private to avoid persecution from authorities, usually Catholicism due to the clash in teaching.

The similarities far outweigh the distinctions.

rr_x
16-12-2008, 01:00 PM
"Doublethink"??? LOL...:rolleyes:




I felt as though I'd read it before, and yet I'm sure I haven't...:confused:

Doublethink is:

To know and not to know, to be conscious of complete truthfulness while telling carefully-constructed lies, to hold simultaneously two opinions which cancelled out, knowing them to be contradictory and believing in both of them; to use logic against logic

:cool:

mike martin
16-12-2008, 01:12 PM
You didn't have to do that, but thanks much for going through the effort, Mike. Much appreciated. I must say, the full quote read very much like what I expected. In fact, reading that was like a deja vu experience for me. I felt as though I'd read it before, and yet I'm sure I haven't...:confused:
No problem.

I'm not trying to twist Hall's words, I'm trying to understand them.
That takes me back to what I wrote before, you are never going to understand them if you haven't ever read them. I'm clearly not talking about distorted little snippets but the words as written and in the context of the body of work in which they are contained.

We find ourselves in rather ironic positions, I think. Me defending Hall, you criticising him...
Awkward, isn't it?! :D

No not really! I'm not particularly criticising Hall,

I am criticising those who twist what he wrote to fit an agenda that bears no relation to what he was trying to explain and I am criticising those who try to promulgate the myth that he was a Masonic "authority" and therefore his books are important to Freemasons.

Mike

kasalt
16-12-2008, 01:12 PM
Doublethink definition:

The power of holding two contradictory beliefs in one's mind simultaneously, and accepting both of them.

You are against secrecy and for privacy yet dictionary definitions use each word to describe the other.

It seems to me that there are clear and obvious legal distinctions between the terms Secrecy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia and Privacy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia. I don't know why reading both of those articles didn't help you see that. It's not "doublethink", for crying out loud.

Maybe this news article will help clarify the point by way of practical example:

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/leading-articles/leading-article-privacy-yes-secrecy-no-805136.html

kasalt
16-12-2008, 01:16 PM
Doublethink is:

To know and not to know, to be conscious of complete truthfulness while telling carefully-constructed lies, to hold simultaneously two opinions which cancelled out, knowing them to be contradictory and believing in both of them; to use logic against logic

:cool:

So now deja vu is doublethink too? :rolleyes:

eastbeast
16-12-2008, 02:25 PM
Are you? In context the last 5 words of his post are the truest he's ever likely to speak though.


all this talk of child abuse/sacrifice rituals taking part of the peak of it is a load of nonsense.


I thought this was the only true part.

rr_x
16-12-2008, 08:37 PM
It seems to me that there are clear and obvious legal distinctions between the terms secrecy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secrecy) and privacy (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Privacy). I don't know why reading both of those articles didn't help you see that. It's not "doublethink", for crying out loud.

Maybe this news article will help clarify the point by way of practical example:

http://www.independent.co.uk/opinion/leading-articles/leading-article-privacy-yes-secrecy-no-805136.html

Proverb:
To him that you tell your secret you resign your liberty.

banoyes
20-12-2008, 03:17 PM
Totally agree. It is an example of information that people don't want other people to have, because there is no need.





Fundamentally, any group of people whether an organisation or just a loose group of like minded individuals are free to assemble and are also free not to tell anyone what happened at those assemblies (this is different for public bodies as they are theoretically working for the public).
Whether it be at Masonic meetings, David Icke meetings or just a bunch of guys down the pub.
It is a basic human freedom.

Not quite
You may not meet in private and conspire to commit a crime.
This is the charge against the Freemasons

There is a group,under your banner, that have been conspiring for centuries.
Why do you think there are so many Royals in masonry?!
and you call it all coincidence,all of it, there is not a word of truth
these dozens of researchers and historians, all liars

Guard secrecy-protect your cults members- prepare to lie
That's the Freemason mantra