Showdown: And Let's Get All the Facts Lined Up.

[quiettraveller]

#1:
David Icke's Tales from the Time Loop is published by Bridge of Love Publications.

The Christ Conspiracy by Acharya S and Jesus the Last of the Pharaohs by Ralph Ellis is published by Adventures Unlimited Press.

I value David Icke's work but I doubt he is the last word on some of the topics he puts out. Currently, I tend to lean more towards the works published by Adventures Unlimited Press.

Adventures Unlimited Press (AUP) has published a book called The Return of the Serpents of Wisdom by Mark Amaru Pinkham.

QUESTION #1:
What is the difference between Icke's Repitilians and Pinkham's Serpents of Wisdom?

#2
Pinkham posits this: There have been serpent religions in world civilization. Christianity is a religion that is anti-serpent.

My personal acknowledgement is the story in The Book of Genesis. A serpent temps Eve.

QUESTION #2:
The Bible acknowledges the suggestion of "serpents of wisdom". Given that humans are real and serpents are real. Who then is the god that created Adam and Eve before their encounter with a serpent, who in this story did not create Adam and Eve?

Where is this god now?

Item #3:
David Icke, on page 25 of Tales from the Time Loop, suggests kundalini is good. But he says reptilians are bad. This is one reason why I am not impressed with David's treatment of this subject.

The second reason why I don't appreciate David's writings is that the implied theology is unclear.

He seems to say All Is One and that the Matrix is created by consciousness. Whose consciousness: only humans? humans and the animal kingdom? reptilians? All is one means that we are one with reptilians also. David tries to get his readers to see existence as being more than the traditional physical dimensions. We should transcend this reality, transcend the Time Loop. Haven't the Reptilians done this? What peace is there in the unity of all is one when the components are humans who've reached nirvana (kundalini) and reptilians. And who are the other-dimensional insects that feed off humans? Do these other-dimensional insects like reptilians. I guess reptiles eat insects, so maybe a reptilians can remove an insect feeding off a human.



Who is this Infinite Love

[tinmenace]

I don't think anyone is ever the last word on any topic. Knowledge, enlightenment and consciousness is an ever expanding and evolving pathway.

People go where their intuition nudges them. David was brave enough to publish what he found along his path. I take my hat off to him and to anyone else that is willing to do that.

[i am all i am]

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=4101

Here's a thread with a lot of information on the serpent and an understanding of the symbology of its use.



http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/3/3D_emoticon_S34.gif With LOVE. http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/3/3D_emoticon_S36.gif

[james777]

People go where their intuition nudges them. David was brave enough to publish what he found along his path. I take my hat off to him and to anyone else that is willing to do that.

[/B]

Really???........Is this how you feel???

Cause I coulda swore that.......hmmmmm.........nah, nevermind.

[i am all i am]

Really???........Is this how you feel???

Cause I coulda swore that.......hmmmmm.........nah, nevermind.

http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/2/3D_emoticon_40.gif

An attempt at baiting...are you a FISHerman ???

http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/2/3D_emoticon_71.gif
http://www.sonex-online.com/Stash/Jesus%20Fish.jpg



http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/3/3D_emoticon_S34.gif With LOVE. http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/3/3D_emoticon_S36.gif

[james777]

http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/2/3D_emoticon_40.gif

An attempt at baiting...are you a FISHerman ???

http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/2/3D_emoticon_71.gif
http://www.sonex-online.com/Stash/Jesus%20Fish.jpg



http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/3/3D_emoticon_S34.gif With LOVE. http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/3/3D_emoticon_S36.gif

If that's true......it looks like you've bit the hook..........

[eternal_spirit]

QUOTE: quiettraveller: Item #3:
David Icke, on page 25 of Tales from the Time Loop, suggests kundalini is good. But he says reptilians are bad. This is one reason why I am not impressed with David's treatment of this subject.


He suggests there is positive use and negative use of Kundalini. He says not all reps are bad in other books, but most have perverted the use of Kundalini alot of which is to do with negative sex rituals which they feed off human negative emotions etc. These can trigger the reptilian traits in the human brain also, which means reps can be interpreted symbolicaly as opposed to actual physical traits such scales, rep bodys and shape shifting.


I'm laughing to much to type any more HAHA iamalliam ever thought of putting some cartoons together with those emoticons and pics.

[i am all i am]

I'm laughing to much to type any more HAHA iamalliam ever thought of putting some cartoons together with those emoticons and pics.

Computer literacy is a course that I started only a few months ago, so I wouldn't have a clue how to do that. Although I could supply you with some pictures, you know, like this...

http://i39.photobucket.com/albums/e198/tattoohairgoddess/JesusFuckingChrist.jpg


This is the site that has a hotlink for the emoticons and they are all free...
http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/



http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/3/3D_emoticon_S34.gif With LOVE. http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/3/3D_emoticon_S36.gif

[adramelech]

I'm not an Icke defender and have been very critical of him in the past, particularly his work regarding reptilian information. Therefore, I'm probably not the best person to give you Icke's reasoning, but I can give you some of mine.


Pinkham posits this: There have been serpent religions in world civilization. Christianity is a religion that is anti-serpent.

My personal acknowledgement is the story in The Book of Genesis. A serpent temps Eve.

QUESTION #2:
The Bible acknowledges the suggestion of "serpents of wisdom". Given that humans are real and serpents are real. Who then is the god that created Adam and Eve before their encounter with a serpent, who in this story did not create Adam and Eve?


Biblical stories are mixed up retellings of older myths by later Hebrew scholars. The Biblical god "Yahweh" is in fact a title used to describe several gods, many instances of "God" are actually "gods" and many of Yahweh's titles (such as "El Shaddai" for instance) are actually names of other gods, in this case Adad.

All of the "gods" of Eden were reptilian or serpentine in appearance. The gods created early man in their own image.

Haggadah:

"The first result was that Adam and Eve became naked. Before, their bodies had been overlaid with a horny skin"

"The dust was of various colors - red, black, white, and green. Red was for the blood, black for the bowels, white for the bones, and green for the pale skin."

Nag Hammadi:

"She looked at the tree. And she saw that it was beautiful and magnificent, and she desired it. She took some of its fruit and ate, and she gave to her husband also, and he ate, too. Then their minds opened. For when they ate, the light of knowledge shone upon them. when they put on shame, they knew that they were naked with regard to knowledge. When they sobered up, they saw that they were naked; and they became enamored of one another. When they saw their makers, they loathed them since they were beastly forms. They understood very much."

Etc.

He seems to say All Is One and that the Matrix is created by consciousness. Whose consciousness: only humans? humans and the animal kingdom? reptilians? All is one means that we are one with reptilians also. David tries to get his readers to see existence as being more than the traditional physical dimensions. We should transcend this reality, transcend the Time Loop. Haven't the Reptilians done this?


Hardly. I don't apply lofty metaphysical interpretations to reptilians like Icke has done in his later work, but even he has never implied that reptilians are some super-race that has trancended space and time. Imagine yourself, as a three-dimensional being, looking down "into" a two-dimensional universe - this is how a being operating from the fourth dimension would view our reality.

Icke has also never implied that "reptilians are bad" or painted them with a wide brush of "demonic" or "evil". They are simply beings like you and I.

[eternal_spirit]

http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/thumbnails/3/3D_emoticon_S84.gif cool good site iam all iam

[i am all i am]

http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/thumbnails/3/3D_emoticon_S84.gif cool good site iam all iam

You're welcome.

Here's another one with links...
http://www.webplaces.com/html/animations.htm



http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/3/3D_emoticon_S34.gif With LOVE. http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/3/3D_emoticon_S36.gif

[i am all i am]

Here's another fisherman image, IAAIA. :D

http://www.globalfailure.com/images/troll.JPG

Watch out sunshine, you post a picture of a FISHerman and christ, you may get a bite !!!

Thanks for the piccie gorgeous !!!



http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/3/3D_emoticon_S34.gif With LOVE. http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/3/3D_emoticon_S36.gif

[quiettraveller]

Tinmenace:
I don't think anyone is ever the last word on any topic. Knowledge, enlightenment and consciousness is an ever expanding and evolving pathway.

People go where their intuition nudges them. David was brave enough to publish what he found along his path. I take my hat off to him and to anyone else that is willing to do that.

QT replies:
In the subject for discussion, reptilians, I see protagonists (humans) and antagonists (reptilians taking over human institutions; reptilians eating humans, reptilians coming along to a garden of creation and giving us light not in God’s time but when some God-usurping Serpent thinks we should have some light.).

I’m a little suspicious of a God who would place children in a garden and a tree in the middle of the garden, not off to the side or on top of a mountain, or out of reach.

That’s my thing, my thang with the “holiness” of, the goodness of God, Infinite Love.

Milkmoon re: The Reptilian Agenda at amazon.com (not co.uk)
{*emphasis added by me}
I have read interviews with Credo and I'm wondering why David Icke puts great emphasis on this alien agenda? Credo is quoted in another interview stating 'It is said that these creatures feed on us human beings; that they, at one time, challenged God Himself to war, because they wanted full control of the universe. And God fought a terrible battle against them and He defeated them, injured them, and forced them to hide in cities underground."

Now that sounds like the battle of Lucifer the fallen angels or Nephilim. He also talks of these aliens teaching them astrology, magic,etc taking human wives and positions of power. These are the Watchers that are portrayed in ancient scripture before the Bible. If you read the Book of Enoch, this gentleman’s testimony mirrors those scriptures. Also he states that the name of The Chitauli's leader was Jabulon.

Jabulon is worshipped by Masons (high ranking who understand Masonic spirituality) not the Blue lodges. Jabulon according to Masonic writings of Pike is Lucifer, bearer of light who was unjustly punished. This basically ties in with ancient scripture in Enoch.

*I'm not sure what David Icke’s agenda is but I do believe he is taking some of Credo's testimony out of context to fit his alien agenda. Makes you wonder if he is not part of disinformation.*
# # #
{God lost a perfect opportunity for humanity-light symbiosis with humans. God creates the Serpent of Light and light comes from God. So what!: The Serpent gave us light first. God, You walk in the Garden with us and give us your guidance on light! What is the big deal?

Elementarily, the big deal is that the serpent sinned and wanted to usurp God’s glory and the humans sinned and wanted to be disobedient. WHERE IS THE FORGIVENESS? Where is the constructive guidance? Where is the horse whisperer / dog whisperer school of Infinite Love?

Icke says the cruelty in the animal kingdom is within the matrix but transcending the matrix, there is infinite love.

Likely, the Creator of Adam and Eve was within the projected matrix.

# # #

I AM ALL I AM,

I’ve only glanced through the information you’ve provided. I should have said this first: thank you for the reply.

The only reason why I can’t give this a second reading and then a get-exam-ready reading of it is that my mind is very focused on Ralph Ellis and what he’s saying about Exodus. Two quick points that is rocking my religious paradigm: 1) Abraham and Jacob are pharoahs and Joseph snuck back into Egypt to re-establish his royal bloodline onto the throne of Egypt but a new military dynasty changed the game and 2) Mt. Sinai is realy the Giza pyramid.

I’m writing three books. Still, I will look very closely at the information you’ve provided.

# # #
Tinmenace gives james777 a start and IAAIA runs with it across a tangent that’s quite comical. (smile)
# # #
Eternal Spirit:
He suggests there is positive use and negative use of Kundalini. He says not all reps are bad.

QT: Are humans food for them or not?

But in all fairness, humans eat humans sometimes. And economically, we’ve had to come up with the line of wisdom “buyer beware” and “dog eat dog.”

Still, Icke seems to put forth that reptilians consume humans in the regular course of their feedings or at least in the regular course of their religious practices. Hey, is there any connection between the communion/consuming the body and blood of Christ?

Even the good light bearing reptilians interruptted our peace with God.

OK, if the reptilians did something to our dna to make our brains bigger than the brains of homo erectus why didn’t God reclaim his children? O.K., you were out playing in the garden and a criminal made you be disobedient, but you’re still mine. I’m going to remove what the bad serpent put inside you.

The serpent became the third parent--the third biological parent.

Eternal Spirit, why miss the obvious: the powerful reptilians are doing awful things to human civilization for which David Icke gives abundant evidence.

# # #

Adramelech:
All of the "gods" of Eden were reptilian or serpentine in appearance. The gods created early man in their own image.

QT: Are you saying that along with the serpent that tempted Eve, the Creator of Adam and Eve was also a serpent?

# # #

Looking at evolution we all know this:

Monkeys, apes, orangutangs, hominids (the various species of humanlike creatures) go back at least 1 million years.

What is the relationship of hominid reptilians and serpents to reptiles: why don’t they prefer, say alligators and snakes to humans? And since they are so good at genetic engineering, instead of bringing monkeys, apes, gorillas, orangutangs, and prosimians from homo habilis into homo sapiens sapiens, why not make creatures in their own image?

Adramelech:
he has never implied that reptilians are some super-race that has trancended space and time.

QT:
No, what’s put forth is that reptilians can be seen in the four dimensional world but not so easily in the three dimensional world. The reptilians can consume a lot of human blood that they will be able to be seen in the three dimensional world; however, a 3-dimensional human on mushrooms or LSD can get in an altered state in order to see the reptilians.

I await your reply.

Adramelech:
Icke has also never implied that "reptilians are bad" or painted them with a wide brush of "demonic" or "evil".

QT: I disagree again: why is Icke sounding an alarm about the reptilian agenda? The reptilian agenda poses no threat to humans? Icke has a DVD called “The Reptilian Agenda.”

I await your reply.

[tinmenace]

Ok, I don't know what your question is, and I'm not really sure what you're trying to saying in your post, it's all over the place, but I'll give a brief response anyway;

I suggest you take from David, and any other truth-seeker, that which resonates with you, and leave the rest behind.

Follow your intuition.

At the end of the day it's about elevating our consciousness, and the only path up, is with Love.

That’s my thing, my thang with the “holiness” of, the goodness of God, Infinite Love.

I don't think that God and Infinite Love belong in the same sentence.

Good luck with your books. :)

[teslafire]

If any of you feel the need the post any more pics of "fishermen", please feel free to do so in the forum entitled "Useless Media".

Thanks.

[eternal_spirit]

QUOTE: quiettraveler: He suggests there is positive use and negative use of Kundalini. He says not all reps are bad.

QT: Are humans food for them or not?

Eternal...There are full blood reps and human hybrid reps, maybe he means some of the hybrids are not all bad.

QUOTE: quiettraveler: Looking at evolution we all know this:

Monkeys, apes, orangutangs, hominids (the various species of humanlike creatures) go back at least 1 million years.

eternal.....Evolution is a theory and not fact,, Darwin was part of the illuminati Elite's propaganda disinformation...... how can we be certain there isn't a missing link, or an alternative explanation to how man came to be man???

Genetic manipulation by ET's Noahs ark from the Bible being symbolic of the great flood of Atlantis is a good one that fits. or even an advanced race of earth creatures created man. Or god? My avatar may look like a gorilla, but I'm hoping I came from something more flattering than a bleedin baboon!

[quiettraveller]

tinmenace: I don't think that God and Infinite Love belong in the same sentence.

Good luck with your books. :)

QT: Thank you for the wish of luck.

"God and Infinite Love do not belong in the same sentence?" Many have dedicated their lives sincerely to loving God. Many a priest, many a nun, many a congregant. Others have gone on to be mystics and proclaimed saints. Many a person has signed over family estates to churches, for the love of God.

You're alluding to a suggestion that people turn from God and gaze worshipfully--devote these lives--to Infinite Love. Infinite Love is greater than God?

Now, it's quite easy for me to ask you, in your own words to extrapolate. Maybe God is not love that He gave his only begotten son to die on a cross defeated in this physical world.

People are atheists with respect to God. People can be atheistic with respect to Infinite Love, too.

I think it was another poster, Zircon, who said the criterion is ethics. Run an ethical test. I'd say run an ethical test before a test of love. Love may have ulterior motives.

In church we know to be still.

Now, look at the givens. Love is subjective. A provider is objective. The sun shines on all, objectively. That which is subjective needs to be appeased and worshipped. It is ethical that if we find ourselves on this Earth in a body that we treat the Earth and our bodies with respect. It is holy that we learn the laws of the this four-dimensional world that we mostly live in. Four dimensions: length, width, height/depth, and space-time. We certainly do exist at least in part in the four-dimensional matrix. This is how the masses are accepting the terms of discussing existence: four dimensions. We've got it. So let's all get on the same page. Next, thanks to quantum physics we know that in addition to intelligence via travelling distance, there is intellligence that is simultaneous. An atom on the other side of the galaxy can react to another atom faster than the speed of light. Icke says there is no time. Hey these atoms do not need time to send a message across the galaxy. And because the dimension is space time, there is no space either. No passage of time for communication and no passage over space for communication.

Now there are spectrum of light and sound outside of the human body's unassisted registry--but others in the animal kingdom are have instruments of greater breadth and depth. There are delta brainwaves and gamma brainwaves. Apparently, the human's aura can go where its physical body cannot go.

There is also a scale of quality living. People are being priced out of quality homes and quality education. There are people who are trying to price others out of the good things in life. Just as a gambling institution can stack the cards in favor of the house being profitable and the customers-at-large netting the financial expense for a good time, Icke says the "City/Crown" in London has stacked the cards against the citizens of what once was the United States.

Well, let's say quality living is taken from the masses to control them because we love them. We know better. They can't be left to their own self-direction because #1, humans are controlled by astrology and astrology makes humanity anarchistic. Some people try disciplining themselves against the weather of astrology. Others try to transcend the negative aspects of their astrological signs. Apparently people who are Pisces do well under the age of Pisces. Well, how fair is that to the rest of the human beings on Earth in that 2000-year reign of a sign? No we'll take matters into our own hands and parse out quality of life according to our own rules of the game but making sure the wealth of the world not only go to the 1/12th but only go to the 2%. We'll take astrology and not share it with the masses. The Exodus is about people who saw a view of the heavens had changed from Taurus to Aries. But to-date, there is no common knowledge among the masses about this fact! Is it clearly stated in modern translations of The Hebrew Bible, The Gospel, The Koran. No. Live in the fog. Live in the lies. The price, the quality of your paradigm is low because it doesn't match reality.

God is Truth. Being one with Truth is enriching.

;) Ha-ha, some would say You (the masses) can't handle the truth. So, because we love you we will give you illusions, half-truths, propaganda, the matrix, the time loop.

So, tinmenace, should all of my fathers (priests), brothers, mothers superior and sisters who love God, turn from God and devote their lives to Infinite Love?

Write for me then the obituary of God since God isn't good enough to be in the same sentence as Infinite Love. It is quite apparent that you aren't saying God is greater than Infinite Love.

[tinmenace]

Infinite Love is greater than God?

Yep, I don't recall any wars fought over infinite love.

[eternal_spirit]

QUOTE:quiettraveller
think it was another poster, Zircon, who said the criterion is ethics. Run an ethical test. I'd say run an ethical test before a test of love. Love may have ulterior motives.

Pure true love cannot lie unlike an imaginary God in the sky.
a god in the image of man or in the imagination of man ???

[eternal_spirit]

QUOTE: quiettraveller: thanks to quantum physics we know that in addition to intelligence via travelling distance, there is intellligence that is simultaneous. An atom on the other side of the galaxy can react to another atom faster than the speed of light. Icke says there is no time. Hey these atoms do not need time to send a message across the galaxy. And because the dimension is space time, there is no space either. No passage of time for communication and no passage over space for communication


Eternal.....
No such thing as no time and no space everything is of measurable quantity it's what the laws of physics and creation are based upon.

All can be broken down to mathematical formula and sets of equations with numbers and other methods of measurements.

macrocosm microcosm :D

[james777]

Hey, QT, don't worry about 'TINMENACE'. In my personal experience she has proven to be a bundle of contradictions, saying some things to certain people and different things to others. I don't see the consistentcies in her word, therefore I have written her off as; Disoriented.

[eternal_spirit]

QUOTE: quiettraveller: Write for me then the obituary of God since God isn't good enough to be in the same sentence as Infinite Love. It is quite apparent that you aren't saying God is greater than Infinite Love



Eternal......
Love can be expressed and lived as a provable reality God is only a possible probability not a defined reality.

[james777]

Eternal......
Love can be expressed and lived as a provable reality God is only a possible probability not a defined reality.

That's a pretty intelligent response Eternal. The only thing is that God claims to 'BE' love, so without God there would be no love. Going back through history, the first reference to love comes from God. So if you cannot prove that God is reality, how do you assume that 'what you think love is', is actually love at all??

[tinmenace]

Hey, QT, don't worry about 'TINMENACE'. In my personal experience she has proven to be a bundle of contradictions, saying some things to certain people and different things to others. I don't see the consistentcies in her word, therefore I have written her off as; Disoriented.

I love you James. Don't ever forget that

http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/2/3D_emoticon_251.gif

[eternal_spirit]

The truths can be simple, no need to tie your mind into knots with mental gymnastics and intellectualisms or any other ism for that matter. There are two opposing forces in creation love and hate. (Good and evil) God? Devil? an expression an action of doing.....not a being.

Better to believe in what you know to be true and real than live a life full of illusions.

think I'll leave it at that before I over intellectualise myself into an ism.

[eternal_spirit]

That's a pretty intelligent response Eternal. The only thing is that God claims to 'BE' love, so without God there would be no love. Going back through history, the first reference to love comes from God. So if you cannot prove that God is reality, how do you assume that 'what you think love is', is actually love at all??


eternal,,,,I explained it in the previous posts, think about it?

[james777]

I love you James. Don't ever forget that

http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/2/3D_emoticon_251.gif

I Love you too!!

[eternal_spirit]

Okay, I'll try explain what I think Icke means....We are all God infinite conciousness all part of the whole but individul parts of that whole each one of us is connected to each other even though we're differen't individual expressions of that one conciousness.

He never said there is one superior God like being or one creator we are the creator.

[james777]

Okay, I'll try explain what I think Icke means....We are all God infinite conciousness all part of the whole but individul parts of that whole each one of us is connected to each other even though we're differen't individual expressions of that one conciousness.

He never said there is one superior God like being or one creator we are the creator.

I see your points, but how can we(humans) be the creator when we don't have power over life and death? If I could go outside and mix some clay and blow into it and a man is formed, then I could agree with that. It seems more obvious to me that we are creations of something much greater, although we may be part of this creator, we still don't have the power, knowledge or ability to create anything outside of our physical realm. Our creator has given us free-will, so it's up to us to believe what we wish. There is only one truth, everything else is simply lies and I think we all know who the father of lies is.

[eternal_spirit]

I see your points, but how can we(humans) be the creator when we don't have power over life and death? If I could go outside and mix some clay and blow into it and a man is formed, then I could agree with that. It seems more obvious to me that we are creations of something much greater, although we may be part of this creator, we still don't have the power, knowledge or ability to create anything outside of our physical realm. Our creator has given us free-will, so it's up to us to believe what we wish. There is only one truth, everything else is simply lies and I think we all know who the father of lies is.


God is a concept(theory) in the minds of men. We know we're real that's the difference. I know proclaim myself an aethiest, I follow no Religion. All I know for certain is this... I think therefore I am, I Have conciousness, I feel and I'm real......I am me I am free.

[red_grant]

I value David Icke's work...

Me, too. So far I've finished about half of the time loop.

...but I doubt he is the last word on some of the topics he puts out.

I agree, especially in the matters of economics, he makes some awfully naive assumptions.

The second reason why I don't appreciate David's writings is that the implied theology is unclear.

I remember him writing that using dope is one of the means of overcoming 5 senses limitation.

Also, didn't he say one should go to some special place where one can get stronger wavelength to overcome the five senses limitation.

[red_grant]

Elementarily, the big deal is that the serpent sinned...

Just like Greek God Promethaus, who had stolen fire....

...and wanted to usurp God's glory...

Wait a minute! Just because the serpent had "sinned", it doesn't necessarily mean the serpent's motive was to usurp God's glory.

Promethaus might have "sinned" by stealing fire and giving it to humans without the permission of Zeus, still his motive was to help the humans realize their potential, not to usurp Zeus's glory.

...and the humans sinned and wanted to be disobedient.

One cannot be said to possess free will if one cannot be disobedient to God.

...and one cannot be disobedient to God without sinning.

The serpent might have tried to help Adam and Eve to prove to themselves and to God that they possessed free will, not necessarily to usurp God's glory.

WHERE IS THE FORGIVENESS?

How could God have forgiven Adam and Eve?

One could only forgive the other if one were not deliberately responsible for creating a condition for the other's sinning.

If one were delierately responsible for creating a condition for the other's sinning, then one could not be in a position to forgive the other's sinning.

Suppose I deliberately created a condition for QT doing something bad, then could I be in a position to forgive QT doing something bad?

Of course, Not!

God had given free will to Adam and Eve, if God had not given free will to Adam and Eve, they could not have sinned by choosing to disobey God.

God could not have been in a position to forgive Adam and Eve for their sinning by choosing to disobey him by the exercise of free will that God himself had given them.

[quiettraveller]

Eternal Spirit: He never said there is one superior God like being or one creator we are the creator.

james777 : I see your points, but how can we(humans) be the creator when we don't have power over life and death?

QT: “We are the Creator?” Who’s “we”? Before humans were created at the point in time where we can distinguish say homo erectus from homo sapiens sapiens, before this our creation, which species was doing the creation? The monkeys, apes, orangutans, the aliens, the serpents?

I am a firm believer in Life-Before-Humans. The millions of years before we appeared on the scene. We’ve all seen the timeline graph. The timeline of 3.4 billion years of Earth’s history or the 12 billion years before the Big Bang. People go around saying we are the creator. Well, I ask you like god asked Job. Where were you when I created space?

Our consciouness, human consciouness, did not create all there is and all we are *discovering*. “You don’t know what it is and you’re saying you created it.” Humans created gravity, electromagnetism, dinosaurs, Earth, a star that died a billion years before Earth settled into its orbit around the Sun? Puh-leeze.

Who’s we? The consciouness of homo sapiens, sapiens AND homo erectus, AND homo habilis, AND the water species such as dolphins. Let’s not forget about the smart elephants. And as much as there is talk about Reptilians, and I guess the age of reptiles. There was life before reptiles also. All of this consciouness on this Earth and we cannot give credit to the consciouness of Gaia? Checkout Gaia Theory, please.


red grant: (Icke) makes some awfully naive (economic) assumptions.

QT: Hi Mr. Grant. (smile). Glad you’re posting here. Welcome.

red, you know I wouldn’t be bored if you listed a few. (Yes, I sound a little bit like Louis Rukeyser (sp?) )


red grant: (As for the serpent giving Adam and Eve light, it’s) Just like Greek God Prometheus, who had stolen fire....

QT: Thank you. I’m not worthy (smile). I love this parallel.

red grant: his motive was to help the humans realize their potential, not to usurp Zeus's glory.

QT: In the Biblical story, God punished Adam, Eve, and the serpent. I think earlier it was said that God did this unjustly. How can god be infinite love and infinite justice and do something truly unjust?

OK, I can do better than that: blaming the construct. So let’s ignore the assertion that one character, god, does not agree. Taking away god’s ability to trump, setting this construct of god on equal placement among story characters: the serpent helped.

Is this really more than a fable? Does it need to be given much more serious thought? If there’s more, then let God, the serpent, and the people speak.

I guess we the people are speaking about it.

Well, the knowledge of good and evil gives us judgement and gives us limitation. This is bad because it is unlike an Abundant, Limitless God. The Serpent trapped us in the matrix! [I’ve also been reading Busting Loose from the Money Game.]

red grant: If one were delierately responsible for creating a condition for the other's sinning, then one could not be in a position to forgive the other's sinning.

QT: I disagree. People test people. God tests people. I see your point.

I wish there were some commandment God had to follow, like: Thou shall not tempt the people, your creation.

[i am all i am]

I am a firm believer in Life-Before-Humans.

G'day Quiettraveller.

Would this include being soul ???



http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/3/3D_emoticon_S34.gif With LOVE. http://www.lifeshore.com/smiley/data/media/3/3D_emoticon_S36.gif

[red_grant]

red, you know I wouldn't bored if you listed a few[awfully naive economic assumptions of Icke].

Well, I'll start with one to make things as accessible as possible.

In chapter1, Page 3, in the last paragraph of Time Loop:

Italics by David Icke:

I wasn't going to accept a future based on the fact that I was 'working class' and therefore destined for a factory or some low paid job doing what someone else told me to do.

I am not knocking those who do that, far from it. Without such people all those things we buy in the shops, including food, would not be there and I think the wages paid in these essential and hugely undervalued jobs is a disgrace.

Keep the streets clean and they pay you a pittance; play the casino in Wall Street or the City of London, gambling with the very survival of millions of people, and they pay you a fortune.

So I am not demeaning those who work in factories and find themselves pawns in a dictatorial and unjust system;


Keep the streets clean and they pay you a pittance;

Who is they?

play the casino in Wall Street or the City of London

Even though some can use the financial markets as the substitute Las Vegas, that is not the reason why the Financial Markets exist.

Just because some choose to use butcher knives for murder, that doesn't mean the butcher knives exist to murder people.

Financial markets exist primarily to increase/provide the liquidity of physical economic assets, just because some use that increased liquidity as an opportunity for gambling doesn't turn the financial markets into "casinos".

This is a very common mistaken assumption among people with very little knowledge of economy.

...and they pay you a fortune.

Again, who is they?

and nobody gets paid a fortune, unless one counts salary of a few hundred grands as fortunes.

In Wall Street, a salary of a few hundred grands, doens't count as fortune.

People earn a fortune in Wall Street, in a few cases, maybe they scam a fortune, most often get caught in the end.

I wasn't going to accept a future based on the fact that I was 'working class' and therefore destined for a factory or some low paid job...

I am not knocking those who do that, far from it. Without such people all those things we buy in the shops, including food would not be there and I think the wages paid in these essential and hugely undervalued jobs is a disgrace.

So I am not demeaning those who work in factories and find themselves pawns in a dictatorial and unjust system; it is simply that I decided early in my life that this was not going to be for me.

Does this mean then while David Icke doesn't want be a pawn in the system, he wouldn't mind benefiting from dictatorial and unjust system?

Ever wonder how David Icke invests his money/earnings in business not tained with reptilian controlled economic/financial arrangements?

[red_grant]

I think earlier it was said that God did this unjustly.

Who decides what is unjust?

Well, the knowledge of good and evil gives judgement and limitation.

Who decides what is good and what is evil?

If one were deliberately responsible for creating a condition for the other's sinning, then one could not be in a position to forgive the other's sinning.

In response: I disagree. People test people. God tests people.

Just because people test people, that doesn't mean one doing the testing has the power to forgive the one being tested.

In fact, if one being tested did sin, and it was the tester who had created the condition that made the sinning inevitable, then it is actually the one who tested the other is the one that needs to be forgiven by the one who sinned.

God tested people, God created the condition that made people sinning inevitable, and as a result, people sinned, then it is actually God who needs to be forgiven by the people who were tested/sinned.

I wish there were some commandment God had to follow,...

Who's going to create commandments for God?