SUMMONS for NON PAYMENT of COUNCIL TAX

[truthseeker1980]

I live in a flat in Harrow, which I share with my flatmate. We moved into the property in October 2006, all of last year we reluctantly paid our council tax on the 18th of each month as we couldn't afford to pay at any other date, as my payday is the 15th of each month. We opt to pay the extortionate Council tax as we dont want bailiffs turning up at the address or a prison sentance for failing to pay.

This year we got our council tax bill for 2008/09 in April. We pay by cheque each month on the 18th as this is the only time we have the money in our accounts. I have the booklet with stamps to prove this and the amount of £1031.11 has been paid to date.

Yesterday we received a SUMMONS for NON PAYMENT of COUNCIL TAX each, which reads as follows:

Complaint has been made to me by a representative of Harrow Council. The complaint is that you are subject to a Council Tax set by Harrow Council and have not paid the amount outstanding shown below.

You are summoned to appear at 13:00 on Wednesday 12th November 2008 at Court House, Rosslyn Crescent, Harrow, to answer the complaint.
Justice of the Peace for the above area

Amount outstanding £ For the period:
577.26 01-APR-2008 31-MAR-2009

Plus Summons Costs £ 125.00

WHAT YOU OWE £ 702.26

If you do not appear in court your case may still be dealt with in your absence and an order made against you.

If the amount of costs shown together with the sums claimed by the London Borough of Harrow are received at the Council Offices before the court date all further proceedings will be stopped.
Etc…..

I rang the number on the bottom of the summons letter and was on hold for 18.34 minutes before I got through to a very unhelpful lady called Ushma Elder. I asked what the letter was about as we have paid £1031.11 so far this year, she told me I am correct, we have paid £1031.11 to date.

So I asked,
"what is the sumons for, if we owe you no money?"
she replied,
"you have been paying late."
I then said,
"we have always paid on the 18th of each month every month since we moved into the property."

She told me that two reminder letters had been sent to our address that we have been paying late, I told her the first I knew of this was the summons letter.

She then said,
"it's funny how no-one ever receives the reminder letters but get the summons ones",
to which I answered,
"perhaps you are not sending them if everyone says the same thing".
She then said,
"you have had two letters and chose to ignore them",
again I said,
"I have not had any letter until this one, are you calling me a lair?"

She then said something which makes no sense, she told me it's my duty to chase up with Royal Mail about why I didn't get the other letters, I obviously laughed and said,
"how and why would I chase a letter with Royal Mail which you have supposedly sent to me via Royal Mail, I don’t know the dates you were supposed to have sent or even the councils account number."

She then told me, we have to pay the rest of the council tax bill to March 2009 in one lump sum, I explained I couldn't afford to and I couldn't afford the £125 summons costs and then asked for what reason am having to pay this when you have got all the money to date from us.

She said there is nothing they can do, even though I explained the reason we pay on that date was because of lack of money and we were not aware that it had changed this year, that we cant afford to pay the summons costs or the lump sum.

So we have paid £1031.11 so far this year for nothing, they are not providing any service for that amount, other than more charges and a demand to pay the rest off in one lump sum.

How can Harrow Council do this?

We don’t owe them any money, they never sent the reminder letters, we weren't aware that the payment date had changed, even if we did we wouldn't have been able to pay on the 1st of each month due to physically not having the money.

I have very little money, I can just about survive on my wages, Harrow Council are demanding we pay this off in one lump some of £500 odd and also the summons cost of £125, so nearly £700 in one lump sum.

These charges will affect me quite badly, I will not be able to purchase food or pay the other bills, looks like it's going to be an unhappy Christmas. They are not helping people in my situation, more like making our situation worse, even though they have got all our money to date.

How cana council do this to people on the breadline espeically when they have cashed £1031.11 of my fuckin money, we pay the Council Tax and get treated like this and get pushed further into debt by our own council.

I have spoken to legal professionals who say there is nothing i can do other than starve for the next few months and not pay my heating or water bills.

Anyone got any ideas what i should do?

[1694]

Tell them to to use some of the millions they have in there icelandinc bank account.

[john white]

I'm certainly not giving legal advice here, but here are some thoughts

If you cannot afford to pay the entire amount, but have made an offer to pay, which is rejected, you should be able to eat them in court. Being as it appears you have in fact been making regular payments, then its quite likely you do not owe the amount they are claiming (in advance) and shouldn't be concerned about being taken to court. You should attend the court hearing or you will be summarily ruled against and no mitigating circumstances will be taken into account. Councils are on very shakey ground demanding full payment in advance and refusing to take instalments and its more a fear tactic than anything else

Gather every bit of paperwork together you can find and head down to the CAB. The CAB has solicitors who specialise in resolving these cases and you should certainly seek their advice and probably their help

[truthseeker1980]

Yes i did say that. that didn't help. :(

[truthseeker1980]

I'm certainly not giving legal advice here, but here are some thoughts

If you cannot afford to pay the entire amount, but have made an offer to pay, which is rejected, you should be able to eat them in court. Being as it appears you have in fact been making regular payments, then its quite likely you do not owe the amount they are claiming (in advance) and shouldn't be concerned about being taken to court. You should attend the court hearing or you will be summarily ruled against and no mitigating circumstances will be taken into account. Councils are on very shakey ground demanding full payment in advance and refusing to take instalments and its more a fear tactic than anything else

Gather every bit of paperwork together you can find and head down to the CAB. The CAB has solicitors who specialise in resolving these cases and you should certainly seek their advice and probably their help


Thanks Johnwhite, but the legal professional i spoke to was from the CAB and said the only thing we can do is challenge the fact we never received the reminder letter, to which she said that never wins.

[91181]

Fuck em . Dont pay and let them take you to court, it looks like you have a good case .. And if you do have to pay it back they will prob take what you can afford instead of the lump sum ...

[heebeejeebee]

Hi OP, sorry to hear about your situation

I would advise going to tpuc.org if you haven't already. There are plenty of people standing up against this constant crap nowadays, the freeman movement is growing. You'll find a lot of info there, and also links to further info.

For example, a summons is just that, a summons. If I ask you to come here, you've got a choice, right? Just like the word 'must' actually means 'may' in legalese.

Good luck xx

[blueone]

Thats funny because a week ago i received a fine for paying late and a court summons. When i phoned up and asked why they said it was for a late payment - even thought i am not behind with my payments! Same as you i had received NO reminder letters and i'm a postman so i know if they were sent i would have got them.
Isn't it great to get such help from your local council? :rolleyes:
It really does make me sick. :mad:

I wonder if anybody else on this forum have had any similar problems?

[1694]

What John White said. County Court isn't that scarey, have been before and looks like I got to go again, tsk tsk. Do your homework, know your rights and don't be intimdated.

Talk to the office of fair trading, your council may well be abusing it's monopoly, might be worth pulling the council company profile off Dunn and Bradstreet to prove they are a company.

If there is alot of this shit, might be an idea to contact watchdog for some media bullying.

[john white]

Thanks Johnwhite, but the legal professional i spoke to was from the CAB and said the only thing we can do is challenge the fact we never received the reminder letter, to which she said that never wins.

Well that sucks

Ask to see another one!

The CAB round here certainly has more spunk in it, but remember they are all volunteers and some will be more bothered than others

Failing that you can look to find a lawyer of your own to contest the case, but I couldn't offer any guarantees there obviously. Unfortunately you don't have a lot of time

Something I would try is sending in a letter to the council (I'd deliver it in person) detailing an offer to pay in instalments and making it clear in the letter that if the council refuses to accept installments you consider it is being unreasonable. Also demand a written reply to your letter by a specific date. Given that you have less than 2 weeks, however, that may not be effective as 2 weeks is usually the length of time required to give notice to reply

Ultimately, its a big tax collection machine, and what you need to do is find somewhere to jam the works before it rolls over you

I'm sure you can find a way!

[john white]

What John White said. County Court isn't that scarey, have been before and looks like I got to go again, tsk tsk. Do your homework, know your rights and don't be intimdated.

Talk to the office of fair trading, your council may well be abusing it's monopoly, might be worth pulling the council company profile off Dunn and Bradstreet to prove they are a company.

If there is alot of this shit, might be an idea to contact watchdog for some media bullying.

Damn right

Remember the Courts are YOUR courts: you have been paying Council Tax after all!

They just ACT like they are THEIR courts to get their own way

Don't be hostile or shouty, keep it cool, keep it chilled, and look at the judge as your "friend". It's the judges job to give a just judgement, so have the attitude that is what you want to get and that YOU are asking the court for help... not that the court is there to help the council screw you. It does make a difference

[heebeejeebee]

have a look here too

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=578443&postcount=5

[wellsyboy]

Sorry to hear about this truthseeker 1980 - what a bunch of arses these people are.

There may be reasons for the council "trying" this approach. There is no guarantee it will work for them. You need to stop thinking of the council as a service but as a business. A lot of these businesses lost OUR money in Iceland and others are fearing a lot of people defaulting on Council Tax payments (due to the Iceland reason), as well as the loss of speed cameras to collect revenue (see Swindon for example).

So they will try it on with you. Did they actually send the letter from themselves or via an agency (I've had a few of these scum companies doing this to me and they soon retracted their threats but with no apologies)?

The onus is on them to prove they sent the reminder letters to you, which I doubt they did. They go for a blanket approach with this and probably hope for 70-80% of people just to pay up out of FEAR.

Heed the advice given so far and offer them that you will continue paying as you have done and most importantly don't ignore them. Send letters recorded delivery or by hand and keep all documents.

Keep your chin up and don't let the buggers grind you down, they are just business men doing their job at the end of the day. Sh!t job I know but that is their choice. Good luck

[godspeed]

sounds like they are badgering peeps to make up for thier loss in iceland!!!
try and change payment to suite you if not go to court ...ask for a duty civil lawyer to represent you and tell them your truth,,,it will go your way just the stupid council wasteing more money on trivial crap as usual then...there should be more communication with the council before it goes to court in the first place but they just seem to get a kick out of making people sweat over things that should'nt even make it to court but then its common purpose we're dealing with now folks...fight a good fight...its nice to win in court gives you back some power!!!

[pheony]

Thats funny because a week ago i received a fine for paying late and a court summons. When i phoned up and asked why they said it was for a late payment - even thought i am not behind with my payments! Same as you i had received NO reminder letters and i'm a postman so i know if they were sent i would have got them.
Isn't it great to get such help from your local council? :rolleyes:
It really does make me sick. :mad:

I wonder if anybody else on this forum have had any similar problems?

I had the same problem last week for a late payment two months ago even though i made this months payment on time. When i called them to ask why i had been summoned to court they said i had'nt acted on a previous letter that they had sent me....I did'nt recieve any letter from them!

Anyway because i have just moved they had to close that account and stop the summons....By the way i was £52 in credit after this was done.

I was told that if anyone is late with 3 payments they have to go to court....I have only ever been late once?

[tracker]

there is a skills thread that i strongly serguest you read , because there are people who know this area very well on it .

i will bump it up , its called

knowledge and skills ability

thread , it should show up on latest posts page in about 20 seconds .
pm some one on that thread and ask them to post a reply either by pm or on your thread . im sure they will help other wise they wouldnt have posted their abilities on it.

[duckingdafta]

one way might be to become schizophrenic and tell them you are contemplating suing your 'Straw man' entity they created (as your bill will be in capital letters) as you didn't know it was getting you into uncontrollable debt. When they look at you weird for basically telling them you are suing yourself over this bill and so have to put their contract on hold until the legal matter is sorted out, they then seem to find a way of you making payments.
If and when you do get to court I would have ready the name your council trades it's stocks and shares with on the markets (they all trade under different names, taxes pay these traders/ contract tenders.. then these pay the governments... governments don't collect taxes, they have companies do it for them.. it is a scam, but a clever one) and if you do give away your jurisdiction (something I never do) then ask for judgement to be made based on hardship and not deliberate fraud or abuse of a system... just remember you're not representing yourself because you ARE yourself and if you are representing yourself that is only the entity of you on paper format.

that may not make sense as I believe it's all a game played, it's how you chose to play it.

[truthseeker1980]

Thanks for everyones help on this, i've spoken to John Harris from tpuc.org and he will getting back to me this afternoon.

[1694]

one way might be to become schizophrenic and tell them you are contemplating suing your 'Straw man' entity they created (as your bill will be in capital letters) as you didn't know it was getting you into uncontrollable debt. When they look at you weird for basically telling them you are suing yourself over this bill and so have to put their contract on hold until the legal matter is sorted out, they then seem to find a way of you making payments.
If and when you do get to court I would have ready the name your council trades it's stocks and shares with on the markets (they all trade under different names, taxes pay these traders/ contract tenders.. then these pay the governments... governments don't collect taxes, they have companies do it for them.. it is a scam, but a clever one) and if you do give away your jurisdiction (something I never do) then ask for judgement to be made based on hardship and not deliberate fraud or abuse of a system... just remember you're not representing yourself because you ARE yourself and if you are representing yourself that is only the entity of you on paper format.

that may not make sense as I believe it's all a game played, it's how you chose to play it.

If the coucil has tendered revenue collection to a private firm then thaey have a monopoly, which if they are abusing you can contest with your local oft. The oft should then make them offer you the option of installments.

Check your invoice, what company are you paying?

[tom bombadil]

Send in a cheque for the full amount unsigned. Tell them to cancel the summons. When the cheque comes back, wait a few weeks and send it in again, this time signed not using your signature.

Fuck-em up this way untill you have the full amount or know what to do.


Tom.

[1694]

Send in a cheque for the full amount unsigned. Tell them to cancel the summons. When the cheque comes back, wait a few weeks and send it in again, this time signed not using your signature.

Fuck-em up this way untill you have the full amount or know what to do.


Tom.

Don't do that.

[tom bombadil]

This would be a delay tactic. It would show in the first instance that you want to pay. It is always up to you what you do in any situation. The main point would be just how you take action against those that are doing this because they can and not because it is the right thing to do. If you respond with like then you are doing what cames natraly.

It would get the case dropped and in the meantime give you space.

It is as simple as saying the cheque is in the post.



If you dont know what to do or are lost and in the dumps then you must do something. If you sit on your hands and do as they wish then you are just another 'dumb' sucker (forgive me on that one). But if you fight the good fight and do all that you can, then you have tried.

I am all for the Freeman ideal, but that is when I am on top. Not when I am in a corner (as you are). Make a desition today. Are you going to let them have their day in court or are you going to have yours?



Tom.

[mikethepunk]

What is a council tax?

[1694]

What is a council tax?

Do you guys pay like a general state tax?

[danster82]

Maybe you could ask for proof of the notice letters and if they cant provide proof they have been sent then maintain in court that you never received them. Otherwise you might want to screw the lot and go for the freeman approach.

[john white]

What is a council tax?

Tax collected by the local council based on the market value of the property you live in (whether or not you own it) and payable on each adult living in the property, with some discount for bulk

It's been rising very fast and in great amounts in recent years. For example, I live in a one bedroom flat and the council tax is over £900 a year

Given that the minimum wage in the UK equals £12,500, you can see what a large proportion of Tax this actually is, on top of Income Tax, Value Added Tax and all other sorts of levies one has to pay... Road Tax, TV Licence etc etc

[mace]

Well I have just spoken to my Mother (who also works in Law) and she has told me that you need to go, and that the Judge will laugh it out because you're not in arrears, you just pay it late. And coincidently, so does my Mum! Apparently she gets these letters all the time. She pays hers (ours) a week late EVERY month and has done since as far back as she can remember, because of the date she gets paid.

So if everything you've said is indeed the truth, and you can provide proof you DO pay it EVERY month, albeit late because of pay day, then you have nothing to worry about. Just go this time and explain the situation, then you should be fine from then on even if you get future letters... :)

[diamond dogs]

Hi truthseeker These councils really are a law unto themselves and seem to revel in sending out summons after 'late' payments...it happened to me once and I am sure I did not receive two letters, I thought they had to send out a reminder and a red lettered final reminder?...I tried reasoning with them but they said they could not cancel it so an appearance would seem like the only option to plead your case...give these online UK solicitors a go

http://uk-law.justanswer.com/?r=galaw&JCRN=Lawyers&gclid=CLepuOP2vZYCFQWR1QodqSLuxw

[dondaz]

Every year for the past three I've recieved a check from the council for over payment of council tax.

Very soon I will be refusing to contract with them any more! We have to starve the machine that seeks to enslave and destyroy us!

Become a freeman and all this shite goes away!

[91181]

Ahhh the joys of being on benefits :D

[pdcdp]

Every year for the past three I've recieved a check from the council for over payment of council tax.

Very soon I will be refusing to contract with them any more! We have to starve the machine that seeks to enslave and destyroy us!

Become a freeman and all this shite goes away!

you have a few weeks, try emailing the folks at thinkfree.ca , detailing your problem, they may be able to help you double-cross the council into a loophole....

either way, watch some of their vids and maybe you'll come across the info you need, they have some very useful info on court proceedings...
p.s. Dondaz - do you know of any uk based freeman links / societies? am very probably going to take the plunge soon and want to do some final checking... how is it working out for you?

[truthseeker1980]

Well I have just spoken to my Mother (who also works in Law) and she has told me that you need to go, and that the Judge will laugh it out because you're not in arrears, you just pay it late. And coincidently, so does my Mum! Apparently she gets these letters all the time. She pays hers (ours) a week late EVERY month and has done since as far back as she can remember, because of the date she gets paid.

So if everything you've said is indeed the truth, and you can provide proof you DO pay it EVERY month, albeit late because of pay day, then you have nothing to worry about. Just go this time and explain the situation, then you should be fine from then on even if you get future letters... :)

Thanks for the info Mace, my flat mate and i sat down last night and actually worked out what we should have paid to date by installments which equals £1023.37, we have actually paid £1031.11 and they have admitted that is the amount they have cashed.

So in actual fact they OWE us £7.74.

Due to the fact I was on hold waiting to speak to someone for just under an hour in total yesterday (which i have to make back) and I didn't get a lunch break (talking onthe phone to very unhelpful people at the council) and will have to take a days unpaid leave to attend the hearing.

Is there any action we can take against the council?

1. We owe them nothing
2. They owe us £7.74
3. I have to take a day's unpaid leave
4. I have to work an extra hour
5. Not to mention the stress of all of this

Any people know if we can put a case against the council? I really hope we can they are going to regret doing this to me. Can we demand they pay the £7.74 within a very short frame of time follwed up with emails stating if they dont we will take legal action?

[truthseeker1980]

I just had a call from the 4th person at Harrow Council and explained that they are in debt to us, she still wouldn't waive the summons cost of £125, so i have penned this email to send tothem.

If there are any legal professionals or anyone who has done something similar please can you give me your feedback before i send this over to them? Email below.

Dear Fern Silverio,

It seems we have been summoned to court for NON-PAYMENT of COUNCIL TAX, although the council tax office has admitted Harrow Council have cashed £1031.11 of our money to date. This was confirmed by Ushma Elder on 23.10.08.

The amount we are due to have paid to date for the year APR-2008 - MAR-2009, paying by 6 installments of £146.00, together with the first initial payment of £148.37 equates to £1024.37.

As I mentioned above and had confirmed by Ushma Elder and Sarah Parker we have paid and Harrow Council have cashed £1031.11 of our money. Which results in Harrow Council being in debt to MY NAME IN CAPITALS & FLATMATE NAME.

I am sending this email as a reminder that you owe MY NAME IN CAPITALS & FLATMATE NAME £6.74, failure to pay this money to either MY NAME IN CAPITALS or FLATMATE NAME within 48 hours will result in legal action being taken against the council. You will not be sent another reminder and have 6 hours to reply to this email.

If the summons cost is not erased and we have to attend court, a claim against Harrow Council will be made for one days unpaid leave, as well as an extra hour I am due to make back, and the logistical costs of travel to court and from court for both MY NAME IN CAPITALS & FLATMATE NAME.

I look forward to hearing from you.

[diamond dogs]

Thanks for the info Mace, my flat mate and i sat down last night and actually worked out what we should have paid to date by installments which equals £1023.37, we have actually paid £1031.11 and they have admitted that is the amount they have cashed.

So in actual fact they OWE us £7.74.

Due to the fact I was on hold waiting to speak to someone for just under an hour in total yesterday (which i have to make back) and I didn't get a lunch break (talking onthe phone to very unhelpful people at the council) and will have to take a days unpaid leave to attend the hearing.

Is there any action we can take against the council?

1. We owe them nothing
2. They owe us £7.74
3. I have to take a day's unpaid leave
4. I have to work an extra hour
5. Not to mention the stress of all of this

Any people know if we can put a case against the council? I really hope we can they are going to regret doing this to me. Can we demand they pay the £7.74 within a very short frame of time follwed up with emails stating if they dont we will take legal action?


Hi truthseeker I think the 'problem' is (this will be their defence) that they received the payments late and not as 'agreed' in the first letter that was sent to you thus do not waste too much of your time and cause yourself unnecessary stress fighting a cause that you might not win.... I think you should get advise (CAB, ring solicitor or online) work out what your case is and go to court and state it....

[truthseeker1980]

I am going to document this on this thread as i get more information, so if anyone has a council trying the same thing when in actual fact they owe you money, try this, obviously it's trial and error for me but hopefully I'll get to a conclusion which can be used there after.

I didn't send the email i wanted to above as I wasn't sure that I could legally do it.

So I spoke with the helpful guys at tpuc.org who suggested I wirte the council a letter mentioning that The Local Government Finance Act 1992 which you quote, contravenes the Treason and Felony Act 1848, and therefore renders the 1992 Finance Act invalid.

Email is copied below:

Dear Fern Silverio,

The Local Government Finance Act 1992 which you quote, contravenes the Treason and Felony Act 1848, and therefore renders the 1992 Finance Act invalid.

Also to the above it seems we have been summoned to court for NON-PAYMENT of COUNCIL TAX, although the council tax office has admitted Harrow Council have cashed £1031.11 of our money to date. This was confirmed by Ushma Elder on 23.10.08.

The amount we are due to have paid to date for the year APR-2008 - MAR-2009, paying by 6 instalments of £146.00, together with the first initial payment of £148.37 equates to £1024.37.

As I mentioned above and confirmed by Ushma Elder and Sarah Parker we have paid and Harrow Council have cashed £1031.11 of our money. Which results in Harrow Council being in debt to MY NAME & FLATMATE NAME by £6.74.


I look forward to hearing from you.

I got this response:

Dear Mr MY NAME

Thank you for your recent email, the contents of which have been noted.

Contrary to your statement that the Local Government Finance Act is invalid, I can assure you that this is incorrect, if it was invalid the Magistrate's Court would not approve any summons applications.

Please be advised that your bill dated 13/03/08 clearly stipulated your payments were due on the 1st of each consecutive month and you could have ensured that your payments were always received on time by setting up a Direct Debit.

Furthermore, the full charge is actually due on the 1st of April of any given financial year but for ease of payment an instalment plan of 10 months is offered to resident's on the condition that it is adhered to.
Failure to make payment in accordance with the payment plan results in your right to pay by instalments being revoked and a summons being issued.

As your May instalment was not received by 19/05/08 a 1st reminder notice was issued and when your August instalment was not received by 21/08/08 a 2nd reminder notice was issued. Each notice forewarned of the consequences of further late payment and so when your payments fell into arrears again the next natural recovery notice to be sent was a summons.

I can confirm that the summons has been issued correctly in accordance with Council Tax legislation and will not be withdrawn nor the costs removed.

You now have 2 payment options, please chose one of the following and confirm by return email and I will set it up for you.

1/ Pay the remaining balance of £556.26 before the court date to avoid a Liability Order being obtained.


2/ Pay the remaining balance of £556.26 over 3 months from 01/11/08 to 01/11/08, payments will be approximately £236.00 per month.

I await your reply.

Yours sincerely



Ms H Randhawa
Court & Insolvency Officer

So i spoke to the Tpuc guys who told me they dont get magistrates to send out summons, they rent a room in a court house to give themselves validity, but in fact the council do issue the summons, which is illegal.
They told me to ask for the bill signed by the drawer or CEO under his full commercial liability and penalties of perjury, and that you accept his offer of full and final settlement of this debt, and that upon receipt of this bill will make full payment.

So I have now sent them the below and am awaiting reply.

Dear Ms H Randhawa,

Thank you for your swift response in this matter.

If I receive the bill signed by the drawer or the CEO under his/her full commercial liability and penalties of perjury, I will accept the offer of full and final settlement of this debt and upon receipt of this bill will make full payment.

I look forward to your reply.

Will keep this updated so if anyone else experiences the same or similar we truthseekers can stand against the failing system and slowly the PEOPLE WILL WIN.

[swifty]

what a coincidence I received a demand for non payment myself on Sat and when I called them to find out what it was all about they also said they’d sent 2 previous letters which I didn’t receive and apparently since they have proof of posting that’s enough for the courts. What a load of shit

[psychedelia]

I received a letter for non payment of council tax this morning with a court date for next month. My boyfriend came out of work at the beginning of the month because his work didn't pay him his overtime & bonus last month & we were financially screwed so had missed 2 payments of Council Tax. We have unfortuantely had to start claiming Housing & Council Tax benefits.

I telephoned the Council & asked how did they think I was going to be able to pay over £600 in one lump sum when they have on the system that we are currently waiting for our benefits & that we are not receiving any Jobseekers Allowance at the moment due to my partner walking out of his work so we have to wait 6 weeks for it. The woman on the phone started speaking down to me & also said that I had been sent reminders, which I have not received!!

[stelios]

Anyone got any ideas what i should do?


Hello
Sorry to hear about your plight but it really is very coomon. All the councils use an automated system and if the due dates are missed a computer will in due course generate a summons.
The good thing is you are in the right because you have been paying and presumably have the reciepts.
Go to court on the day and show the reciepts and what will happen is the council barrister will withdraw the summons. 9 times out of 10.
The problem is they may insist on the costs being levied.
No county court judge will rule against you provided you are up to date and have the proof.

Dont forget - continue to pay the monthly payments as normal even this month to prove to the court you are still on form.

PS:
I dont agree with my colleagues about citizens advice centres.
In London they are total shit. Manned by unemployed solicitors who havent a clue and in any case you have to queue up and they have quotas so only the first 8 people get seen.
You dont need them anyway, explain to the council barrister in court and i am sure they will be reasonable.

[mikethepunk]

Tax collected by the local council based on the market value of the property you live in (whether or not you own it) and payable on each adult living in the property, with some discount for bulk

It's been rising very fast and in great amounts in recent years. For example, I live in a one bedroom flat and the council tax is over £900 a year

Given that the minimum wage in the UK equals £12,500, you can see what a large proportion of Tax this actually is, on top of Income Tax, Value Added Tax and all other sorts of levies one has to pay... Road Tax, TV Licence etc etc

That is ridiculous.
Here in the USA u only have to pay property tax if u own the property.
God that is awful.
I cannot even imagine what it would be like having to pay that.
If someone lives in a big apt building and everyone has to pay this council tax that is the same amount....that is high way robbery!

If u dont own a property, but just rent, you should not have to pay a tax.

Once again this shows that the UK is the homeland of fascism with the USA right behind it.

thanks
for answering my question.

-
M

[1694]

Have any of you tried the office of fair trading? I serisouly think this is a good avenue to follow, your local council is a monopoly, all be it a state sanctioned one, but they still can't abuse that position.

The oft are good people, there to look out for you the consumer.

[truthseeker1980]

That is ridiculous.
Here in the USA u only have to pay property tax if u own the property.
God that is awful.
I cannot even imagine what it would be like having to pay that.
If someone lives in a big apt building and everyone has to pay this council tax that is the same amount....that is high way robbery!

If u dont own a property, but just rent, you should not have to pay a tax.

Once again this shows that the UK is the homeland of fascism with the USA right behind it.

thanks
for answering my question.

-
M

What's even worse, is the amount you pay per year doesn't go on the size of the property, I rent a two bedroom flat, but it's down a road with about 3 or 4 million £ houses so i have to pay the same tax as the millionaires, i asked them to reconsider the annual bill last year, they said no.

So I pay £1462.37 a year, although my Mum who lives in the family home which is 3 bedroom, own garage, extension, two bathrooms and worth more twice the value of my flat pays £450 less than me a year, because it's not in what the council consider such a nice area. Absolute con artists the lot of them.

[truthseeker1980]

Good afternoon all, I thought i would update you lot on my situation with the ILLEGAL PRACTCIES our local Government's are inflicting upon the honest hard working tax payer. As the first post states I was SUMMONED to COURT yesterday below is an indepth detailed descirption of what went on.

My flat mate and I arrived at the Harrow Magistrates Court at 1pm as the SUMMONS stated. We were met with a massive queue of people all in the same boat, everyone had to empty their pockets and bags into a tray and walk through a metal detector, then have another hand held metal detector waved over us. We were then all given tickets with numbers on, which were called out as and when.

I counted 45 people all waiting for the same reason as myself, they had been summoned for NON PAYMENT of council tax, although they had all paid. Apparently the council does it every single Wednesday, we were expected to stand and wait until our number was called, so to while away the time I worked out how much the council would be earning for the illegal activities they were encroaching upon us. If all 45 people had to pay the £125 they would make £5625 for the day’s work, if they do that every week of the year that's an extra £281,250 worth of revenue for council tax which, they shouldn't have been taking off us, as we had all paid.

I was talking to a lady in exactly the same position as me, she hadn't had any warning letters stating that she was paying late and all she had was the Summons letter. I am not well off, but it sounded like I was slightly better off than she was, as she had children to support. Whilst we were waiting she asked one of the council officers about the dates we can pay, this council officer stated that there is legislation that council tax has to be paid on the 1st of every month, I asked her what legislation, she ignored me, I asked her again, she again couldn't quote the piece of legislation or when it was passed.

The lady was a few numbers ahead of us so was called before. After 10 minutes she came back over to us, crying, she pointed at a big burly man, who she said was a bully and wouldn't listen to her about not receiving the warning letters and not knowing that she had been paying late. She left the court still crying as she couldn't afford to pay the £125 summons fee, just before Christmas. I told her to write to BBC Watchdog and everyone else in the corridor to do so also.

At 2:30pm, an hour and a half after the time the council had proposed we were seen, my flat mate and I were called. Unfortunately we got the same man as the lady who went home crying. We were taken down a corridor where there were 4 other council advisors talking to 9 other people in the same boat. The only way to describe it is as a waiting room, with about 7 chairs outside one of the court rooms. I asked the man his name, he refused to give it to me, I asked him again, he then said let's see what the problem is first, I said I would prefer if you could tell me your name and position so I know who I am dealing with, again he refused.

He asked me to sit down next to him; there was no room for my flat mate so he had to stand in the middle of the corridor between two other people being seen by another person. We gave him all the letters and emails I had been sending to the council and he basically just laughed and said you paid late. My flat mate and I, then explained to him that we were not aware that we had to pay on the 1st of each month, he laughed again and said it clearly stipulates this on the first letter we got in April, we asked him why that all last year we had paid on the same date as we do now, but weren't summoned, his reply was, you were lucky. I then told him that the council are in actual fact in debt to us by £6.74, so how can you charge us £125, he then told us, that the law states that all council tax actually has to be paid on the 1st April every year, but the council does everyone a favour by allowing us to pay in installments, we laughed again, as who is going to have £1462.37 in one lump sum for the council tax.

I then explained to him again that we hadn't had a reminder letter, he said they have proof that they were sent because the computer says so, I said what would the benefit be of ignoring one of these letters, he couldn't answer and just said it's something you have to take up with Royal Mail. My flat mate and I at this point were starting to lose our tempers, as I had already had the exact same argument over the phone with 5 different people in the weeks prior.

He then said that because we had been paying late we had waived our right to pay in installments and that we owed them £417, which is the last two months tax, with the £125 on top. I told him that we will pay the £292 which is all that is left to pay now, but we refuse to pay the Summons fee. He said we will get the bailiffs after you and it will be out of our hands by then and will continue to rise until we pay it.

He eventually gave his name which was David Whittaker; his position was ACCOUNTS OFFICER for the London Borough of Harrow. My flat mate then asked for a break down in the costs, as he hadn't even got a seat, we had no privacy as we were in the middle of a corridor with other people being seen next to us. David Whittaker, told us, its £3 for the court, so I asked for the £122 break down, to which he said, our wages and the cost of printing the Summons. I said we are not paying £125 when we have paid our council tax to date and was not aware we were paying late; he said well if that's the case, we will send bailiffs around to your property for £125 worth of your stuff, I then demanded to see the magistrate, he refused. My flat mate who is a Police Community Support Officer then lost his temper and we both started shouting at him, there were police on duty present, as they were there for the Court’s REAL cases, they heard us shouting opened the interview room door which they were in, heard the word council tax, and then shouted you go get them and closed the door. Then a security guard came over and asked us to keep it down. My flat mate said no, you give us a room to discuss this and we will be quiet, what is the £122 for if we are discussing this in a corridor, I don’t get a seat and they won’t even let us see a magistrate?

I then demanded for the third time to see a magistrate, David said OK, go back into the reception and you will be called again. 10 minutes later we were called over by a small lady who, took us to another corridor between two of the interview rooms, which was a little bit more private but it wasn't a room or court it was agian a hallway, we both didn't have seats, her name was Anne Jones, Revenue Officer for the London Borough of Harrow, we asked why we were not seeing a magistrate, to which she answered,

"The only purpose to go to court is to obtain the liability order!"

she wouldn't let us see a magistrate, I gave her all the emails and quoted that, The Local Government Finance Act 1992 which you quote, contravenes the Treason and Felony Act 1848, and therefore renders the 1992 Finance Act invalid. None of the council tax officers are aware of the law and just say it must be or the magistrates wouldn't approve the summons, I said they haven't approved anything, I haven't even seen a magistrate and we are not in court we are in a corridor in the court building.

I showed her a letter which I had sent which I hadn't had a reply from, which mentioned the above act being invalid and that; It is my intent, that if, within five (5) days, I have not received all the required answers and a bill for the amount required, signed by the drawer under his full commercial liability and penalties of perjury as in accordance with the Bills Of Exchange Act 1882, then your non response and subsequent dishonour will result in your tacit consent to my undertaking commercial remedy against you.

She then said OK, we will adjourn the case until the 7th January 2009. We wasted 3 hours of our time to get no-where, I took a days leave to attend but it wasn't even a court case, every person at the court were as annoyed as we were, all had said to the council officers, why penalise the people who actually pay the tax. Watchdog here come the residents of Harrow.

Perhaps this is why they are expecting civil unrest next year, the last time the people of the UK really protested and rioted was back in the 80's about the introduction of the POLL TAX. Which they decided to scrap due to this, but then changed its name to the COUNCIL TAX. They know we are not happy about the tax anyway, so maybe this is their way of creating a P_R_S for more draconian laws and maybe even martial law.

Problem - Summon to court and charge honest tax paying citizens extortionate amounts for actually paying their taxes

Reaction - Riots and protests countywide

Solution - Martial law

[stickwhistler]

............. very big snip .............
Problem - Summon to court and charge honest tax paying citizens extortionate amounts for actually paying their taxes

Reaction - Riots and protests countywide

Solution - Martial law

Thanks for posting your experience.

Re Martial Law
Police in the UK = 141,000.
PCSO's will number 35,000.
Total 176,000.

In Russia a few years back, an entire estate would band together
and use crow-bars to stop policy enforcement officers abuse!

Population of UK from 2001 census = 58,789,194

If we assume 1/3rd are active adults i.e. disregard children
and pensioners that leaves 19,596,398.

Therefore we outnumber the policy enforcement officers by 11,134 : 1 :D

Pick a cop, and write nicely to him/her.
Write to your chief con-stable.

I'm sure 11,000 or so nice letters each would be gratefully received,
instead of bloody revolution and riots. :eek:

[rjl9332]

I live in a flat in Harrow, which I share with my flatmate. We moved into the property in October 2006, all of last year we reluctantly paid our council tax on the 18th of each month as we couldn't afford to pay at any other date, as my payday is the 15th of each month. We opt to pay the extortionate Council tax as we dont want bailiffs turning up at the address or a prison sentance for failing to pay.

This year we got our council tax bill for 2008/09 in April. We pay by cheque each month on the 18th as this is the only time we have the money in our accounts. I have the booklet with stamps to prove this and the amount of £1031.11 has been paid to date.

Yesterday we received a SUMMONS for NON PAYMENT of COUNCIL TAX each, which reads as follows:

Complaint has been made to me by a representative of Harrow Council. The complaint is that you are subject to a Council Tax set by Harrow Council and have not paid the amount outstanding shown below.

You are summoned to appear at 13:00 on Wednesday 12th November 2008 at Court House, Rosslyn Crescent, Harrow, to answer the complaint.
Justice of the Peace for the above area

Amount outstanding £ For the period:
577.26 01-APR-2008 31-MAR-2009

Plus Summons Costs £ 125.00

WHAT YOU OWE £ 702.26

If you do not appear in court your case may still be dealt with in your absence and an order made against you.

If the amount of costs shown together with the sums claimed by the London Borough of Harrow are received at the Council Offices before the court date all further proceedings will be stopped.
Etc…..

I rang the number on the bottom of the summons letter and was on hold for 18.34 minutes before I got through to a very unhelpful lady called Ushma Elder. I asked what the letter was about as we have paid £1031.11 so far this year, she told me I am correct, we have paid £1031.11 to date.

So I asked,
"what is the sumons for, if we owe you no money?"
she replied,
"you have been paying late."
I then said,
"we have always paid on the 18th of each month every month since we moved into the property."

She told me that two reminder letters had been sent to our address that we have been paying late, I told her the first I knew of this was the summons letter.

She then said,
"it's funny how no-one ever receives the reminder letters but get the summons ones",
to which I answered,
"perhaps you are not sending them if everyone says the same thing".
She then said,
"you have had two letters and chose to ignore them",
again I said,
"I have not had any letter until this one, are you calling me a lair?"

She then said something which makes no sense, she told me it's my duty to chase up with Royal Mail about why I didn't get the other letters, I obviously laughed and said,
"how and why would I chase a letter with Royal Mail which you have supposedly sent to me via Royal Mail, I don’t know the dates you were supposed to have sent or even the councils account number."

She then told me, we have to pay the rest of the council tax bill to March 2009 in one lump sum, I explained I couldn't afford to and I couldn't afford the £125 summons costs and then asked for what reason am having to pay this when you have got all the money to date from us.

She said there is nothing they can do, even though I explained the reason we pay on that date was because of lack of money and we were not aware that it had changed this year, that we cant afford to pay the summons costs or the lump sum.

So we have paid £1031.11 so far this year for nothing, they are not providing any service for that amount, other than more charges and a demand to pay the rest off in one lump sum.

How can Harrow Council do this?

We don’t owe them any money, they never sent the reminder letters, we weren't aware that the payment date had changed, even if we did we wouldn't have been able to pay on the 1st of each month due to physically not having the money.

I have very little money, I can just about survive on my wages, Harrow Council are demanding we pay this off in one lump some of £500 odd and also the summons cost of £125, so nearly £700 in one lump sum.

These charges will affect me quite badly, I will not be able to purchase food or pay the other bills, looks like it's going to be an unhappy Christmas. They are not helping people in my situation, more like making our situation worse, even though they have got all our money to date.

How cana council do this to people on the breadline espeically when they have cashed £1031.11 of my fuckin money, we pay the Council Tax and get treated like this and get pushed further into debt by our own council.

I have spoken to legal professionals who say there is nothing i can do other than starve for the next few months and not pay my heating or water bills.

Anyone got any ideas what i should do?

Hi Mate

Has this been resolved, if not I would start looking into TPUC.org as they have some info on council tax and how its all fraudulent and relates to the law of contract/admiralty. they have a forum to discuss it and help organise seminars to understand it better. Check bursting bubbles of government deception for an better understanding of how the system works.

[signalnorth]

"The Local Government Finance Act 1992 which you quote, contravenes the Treason and Felony Act 1848, and therefore renders the 1992 Finance Act invalid."

Interesting. How so?

[truthseeker1980]

"The Local Government Finance Act 1992 which you quote, contravenes the Treason and Felony Act 1848, and therefore renders the 1992 Finance Act invalid."

Interesting. How so?

Dont think it is, was from TPUC didn't get me anywhere, getting my local MP involved now, will let all know the developments.

[yozhik]

truthseeker, from reading your "court day" experience, I had the following impression;

1. The Council has rented a small office to APPEAR as if the summons is coming from the magistrate. Who was the original "summons" signed by?
2. From your description, the summons was an invitation (an offer) to come to the Council office to discuss the issue; nothing more than an offer to discuss.
3. The fact that you were spoken to by an Accounts Officer in the corridor confirms that this was not official Court business. You were not in a "Court of law" in front of an administrator/judge ... you were in the hallway of an office building, discussing the issue with an employee of the Council ... acting under the guise of operating under their law.

It's a scam.

4. The employee was correct; when you asked to see a magistrate, he replied "that's not possible". He was answering honestly. The reason you could not see a magistrate is because it was not a court matter.


From your account, and from the words used ... this is my interpretation.
They were bullying and deceiving people into thinking it was an official summons to court, when in fact it may simply have been an invitation to go to the Council office which just so happened to be in the court building.

I could be completely and utterly wrong - I haven't seen the exact wording of the document and I was not present on the day. Only you would have the answers to this, but you asked for our thoughts :)

Good luck!

[terrorble1]

How about moving all of your stuff to a friends house, then let the bayliffs take...well, nothing. :D

[signalnorth]

From your account, and from the words used ... this is my interpretation.
They were bullying and deceiving people into thinking it was an official summons to court, when in fact it may simply have been an invitation to go to the Council office which just so happened to be in the court building.
Good luck!
Reminds me of private parking co's who have names that at first glance would appear to be the local council but are just very similar. All very slippery

[pleasuredome]

truthseeker, any chance you can scan the summons and paper work from the council and upload it to photbucket or something similar, and then link it to hear so we can read it and see what the wording is? just make sure to black out your personal details.

[friendsinthesky]

That is really fucked up! The councils around the globe extort cash in many forms of illogic approaches, such as; you can't walk your dog here on the beach due to health reasons, but you can let your horse swim in the ocean if you, apply and pay for permit. Health reasons eh? Pfft!



Truthseeker1980, you should probably look into this and see if it holds water..

Whilst we were waiting she asked one of the council officers about the dates we can pay, this council officer stated that there is legislation that council tax has to be paid on the 1st of every month, I asked her what legislation, she ignored me, I asked her again, she again couldn't quote the piece of legislation or when it was passed.

[free_soul]

one way might be to become schizophrenic and tell them you are contemplating suing your 'Straw man' entity they created (as your bill will be in capital letters) as you didn't know it was getting you into uncontrollable debt. When they look at you weird for basically telling them you are suing yourself over this bill and so have to put their contract on hold until the legal matter is sorted out, they then seem to find a way of you making payments.
If and when you do get to court I would have ready the name your council trades it's stocks and shares with on the markets (they all trade under different names, taxes pay these traders/ contract tenders.. then these pay the governments... governments don't collect taxes, they have companies do it for them.. it is a scam, but a clever one) and if you do give away your jurisdiction (something I never do) then ask for judgement to be made based on hardship and not deliberate fraud or abuse of a system... just remember you're not representing yourself because you ARE yourself and if you are representing yourself that is only the entity of you on paper format.

that may not make sense as I believe it's all a game played, it's how you chose to play it.


I like that one, it absolutly rips them apart!!!!

Are you doining this?

Play them by there own game and add up the laws they reak along the way lol

[truthseeker1980]

Afternoon everyone, just thought i'd update this as I have had some good news.

John Harris thank you for your help.

My first letters and email which the donuts working in the council tax revenue collection dpt claimed were wrong did in actual fact hold some weight when it got passed to my councillor.

If you send a letter like i did to the people at the council revenues tax collection dpt who are the same people you talk to at the summons, you will be told it's a load of bollocks as they know absolutely nothing of what they are enforcing, they are being blindly led to believe that what they are doing is lawful and correct.

If this happens to you dont give up, tell them you know what they are doing is unlawful, that a statute is not a law and demand to see a magistrate, they wont let you see a magistrate as they haven't even booked one for anyone that day and they also know the magistrate will go in your favour if you have paid like i had or just also gone into the Mr fictional person statute law stuff, which i have now got an understanding of thanks again to John, for the video it's an illusion.

After all a summons to court is an invitation to court and this isn't even that anyway, they just rent the court corridor.

If you attend and the get the same reaction as myself and flatmate, just keep demanding to see a magistrate and ask for a break down in the costs involved with regards to the summons fee, they wont be able to give either answers, apart from the £3 cost for hiring the court corridor.

This probably isn't going to help the countless other victims of this sad government theft against innocent human beings through targeting our fictional selves, as they are not clued up on what a statute is or anything about what councils can and cant do, but at least if anyone on here has a similar problem you will be able to sort it out.

The letters and emails i sent got me no-where until i got my councillor involved, as like i mentioned above the people at the council haven't got a clue, they do as they are told and believe that the council wouldn't act unlawfully. Obviously the councillor is well aware that Harrow Magistrates court is listed as a CORPORATION and that we are not Mr Truthseeker1980, you are in actual fact as a human just Truthseeker1980 and cant be forced to pay unless you agree.

As soon as i sent the same letter to the councillors for my ward, i got another letter from the council telling me to not attend the summons on the 7th Jan which the council tax revenue officers had re-arranged the first time we went to the farce court appearance, but to attend a real hearing on the 18th February. So I thought we will actually be able to defend our case in court.

I got to work a few weeks ago and had this email from my councillor:

Sorry for the delay in getting back to you, but I was following up your case with the officers and haven't really had any information to pass on until today.

Please see the attached letter from Michele Flanagan which sets out details of the investigation and also states the Council will no longer be seeking a Liability Order against you and will not seek any court costs therefore you will not need to attend the Court on 18th February and are in fact in credit of £6.74 which can either be refunded to you or taken off your next bill.

Regards

Paul

Letter from council to councillor below.
Dear Cllr Osborn

Council Tax Account Reference ####### For: Mr Flatmate & Mr Truthseeker1980 At: My Address

I have now had a chance to look at the account in detail and speak to the relevant people.

An annual bill was issued on 13th March 2008 for £1462.37, requesting payments of £148.37 on 1st April 2008, followed by monthly instalments of £146.00 from 1st May until 1st January 2009. Payments were received as follows:-

Payment Due Amount Payment Recd Amount
1st April £148.37 7th April £148.37
1st May £146.00 21st May £146.00
1st June £146.00 19th June £150.00
1st July £146.00 21st July £148.74
1st August £146.00 22nd August £150.00
1st September £146.00 22nd September £142.00
1st October £146.00 22nd October £146.00
Summons Costs added £125.00
1st November £146.00 3rd November £146.00
1st December £146.00 3rd December £146.00
1st January £146.00 31st December £146.00


A reminder notice was issued on 19th May as the May payment had not been received. A second reminder was issued on 21st August as the August payment had not been received. All payments up to this date had been received late but the reminders were not picked up earlier due to the timing of the recovery runs. These runs have to fit in with other jobs being run on the system and the dates will vary from month to month. As stated on the back of the bill and all reminder notices, if a third notice is issued it will be a summons. This will result in the right to pay by instalments being lost and the full amount becoming payable, including court costs. Legislation also states that the full amount of council tax is due on 1st of April each year but the charge payer does have the right to pay over ten monthly instalments as long as they are paid in accordance with the bill, as detailed in Reg 20,21 & Schedule 1 Council Tax (Administration & Enforcement ) Regs 1992, Council Tax (Administration & Enforcement) (Amd) (No 2) Regulations 1994.

Legislation also allows for the first payment to be set anytime in April and this is agreed and set by councillors. The payment date of the 1st of the month has been in place since April 1999.

Mr Truthseeker1980 feels that Harrow Council is penalising residents who pay their council tax but pay late. The Council has a duty to all Harrow council tax payers to collect the money on time. If there was not a rigid recovery policy to collect the money on time there is a good chance of the council tax being higher than it is and bills being increased.

Mr Truthseeker1980 has said that he has always paid on the 18th of the month as he and his flat mate do not receive their salary until 15th of the month. There are two options here; they can either pay by direct debit, as the 15th is a direct debit collection date. Or they can pay from their previous month’s salary. If the council tax is paid over ten months they have nothing to pay in February and March. Therefore I would suggest that if they do not wish to pay by direct debit in future, they put aside money from their March 2009 salary to pay their 1st April 2009 instalment.

Mr Truthseeker1980 has also said that he was told in 2007 that it was ok to pay on the 18th. I have checked all of the notes on the account but there is no mention of the 18th. The only notes in 2007 are on 21st March when the band was disputed and Mr Truthseeker1980 was advised to contact the Valuation Office. Then on 7th September 2007 Mr Truthseeker1980 called about his September’s payment as it had not been paid. He was advised that a reminder notice had not been issued yet and the billing process was explained to him. He called again on 10th January 2008 as he had received a reminder notice, and it was explained that the December and January payment had not been received. Mr Truthseeker1980 explained that they had been paid through the Post Office and it was the Councils fault if they had not been received, not his. He was asked to provide proof of payment. When he called again on 15th January the December payment had been located on the suspense account. There was no further contact until this October.

Mr Truthseeker1980 contacted us again on 23rd October after receiving the summons. He was advised that the summons had been correctly issued due to late payment and the costs were payable. It was explained that two reminder notices had been issued prior to the summons. He was not satisfied with this and requested to speak to a supervisor. He was told that a supervisor would call him back. He called back later and was told that he was on the call back list for a supervisor. Later the same day a supervisor called him back and explained that the summons had been correctly issued and costs payable. It was also explained that when reminders are issued the number printed is cross-checked with the number on the computer recovery list and with the number enveloped and sacked. These are then handed over to the Post Office and a proof of postage form signed by a witness. This is then produced at court as evidence during the Liability Order Hearing. This is what is required under council tax legislation, there is no requirement for proof of receipt.

On 24th October, Truthseeker1980 called again and said that he was acting on Solicitors advice. He called again on 27th to enquire about the appeals process. He was advised to put his appeal in writing to the Revenues Group Manager. An email was received on 27th October and was replied to, both copies attached. His email of 3rd November was replied to on 7th November, copies attached.

We now reach the day of the court hearing. Harrow Magistrates Court is an old and rather small building. If a lot of people arrive for a Liability Order Hearing it can be very packed and noisy. To try and resolve this we have changed the time on the summons to 1 pm. This is because the court has stopped for lunch and anyone not involved in the council tax hearing should have vacated, leaving more space. Another way is by issuing numbered tickets so that people are seen in turn and to try and keep an orderly queue. However, there are still problems as there are only two small interview rooms and we do not always have access to both of them, resulting in a lack of privacy. Council tax hearings are on average once a month but at the last council/court liaison meeting it was agreed to, where possible, increase council tax hearings to once a week from April 2009 to reduce the number of people likely to turn up.

The reason for the Hearing is to obtain a Liability Order against people who have not paid their council tax in accordance with their bill. Although it is everyones right to go before the Magistrates, they only want to see cases where there is a valid defence. Paying the council tax late is not a valid defence and this was pointed out to Mr Truthseeker1980 by both David Whittaker and Ann Jones. The reason we send council staff to court before the hearing is to try and help them with their query as most people do not want to go into court. If someone wants to go in but we know it is not a valid defence we will advise them of this and explain that the Magistrates will not want them to appear but council staff will never stop someone from going before the bench.

The regulations regarding costs for liability order applications are contained in the Council Tax (Administration and Enforcement) Regulations 1993 (SI 613, regulation 34 paragraphs 7) This provision is as follows:

(7) An order made pursuant to paragraph (6) shall be made in respect of an amount equal to the aggregate of-

(a) the sum payable, and

(b) a sum of an amount equal to the costs reasonably incurred by the
applicant in obtaining the order.

In effect, it is up to the local authority to set the level of charges. Charges can be imposed at summons stage, liability order stage, or via a spread of costs between the two stages.

London Boroughs, through the London Revenues Group, a group that represent Council Tax and Business Rates managers in London, discuss the level of charges and where possible increase charges yearly by similar amounts.

For 2007/08, the maximum figures being discussed are £125 in total for Council Tax, this was not increased in 2008 and remains at £125.

The above has been arrived at looking at the level of costs charged elsewhere, for example County Court Charges - the levels of which are set out below;


County Court Charges
Claim (Up to) Court Fee Registration Fee
£300 £30 £50
£500 £50 £50
£1,000 £80 £50
£5,000 £120 £50
£15,000 £250 £150.00
£50,000 £400 TBA
£50,000 + £700 TBA



You will see that the average overall cost for debts over £1000 [which would apply to the majority of our tax payers] is £130 [£80 + £50].


Mr Truthseeker1980 has mentioned a lady being bullied by a man. As I do not have any details of the lady I cannot comment, but what I can say is that it is not in Mr Whittaker’s nature to be a bully and I am sure he would be very upset if he thought someone had referred to him as one. After speaking to David Whittaker and Ann Jones, I believe they did all they could to help at that time within the restrictions of legislation and council policy.

The case has been adjourned until 18th February and although the summons was correctly issued and costs payable, as they have now paid the council tax in full and spent several hours waiting in the court foyer at the last hearing, as a gesture of good will I will remove the court costs on this occasion. However, this will not be done again and I would repeat that payment must be received by 1st of the month, starting from 1st April 2009 as detailed in the bill due to be despatched in March. This will leave a credit of £ 6.74 on the account. This will be used to reduce their next bill, unless they request a refund. The council will not ask for a Liability Order on 18th February against Mr Flatmate or Mr Truthseeker1980 and there is no need for them to go to Court.

I hope this answers all of the queries raised by Truthseeker1980 but if you require any further information, please contact me by email or on 020 8424 1729.

Yours sincerely





Michele Flanagan
Team leader – Revenues

cc Ms M Barrett

The council still think or state they are right but have waived the fine, so i got what i wanted anyway.

I did it blindly, as i hadn't seen the video or really understood what John told me when i spoke to him on the phone. I do now and will be learning a lot more over the next few weeks, just a shame most people wont know this and the government will carry on stealing money from unaware people.

We need to get this Freeman stuff out to everyone, i have sent it to my Mum and she is interested, so one of my supposed crackpot conspiracy theories is now an interest to her, so maybe if this freeman on the land stuff is be put out to everyone we know and everyone learns and understands, we could actually start a non violent or protesting peoples revolution. Play them at there game, if we all unregistered our birth certs with the UNITED KINGDOM CORPORATION LTD and then went on strike they would be right up sh#t creek without a paddle.:D

[spoonogsback]

John, Why are you advising people to got to a solicitor ?
That will only make the difficult situation these people are in even worse.
Look up Winston Shrout solutions in Commerce all anyone needs to know is there.

[januspolanski]

Thanks Truthseeker for the great thread. I too got a summons today but it doesnt matter as we ve already had an accepted offer to pay the money owed by the end of march. I think councils are in financial trouble and are getting nasty and desperate to keep from going bust, especially in the current economic climate.

I loved the report from the day spent in court. It makes the Council look like the Sopranos extorting protection money from poor honest folk and then threatening to send round Paulie and Silvio(bailiffs) if you dont pay up. What a scam getting you to come to court and talk to them i the corridor, Id expect to see that sort of thing on the Real hustle.

They re crooks and the hapless council staff dont even realise it. Council is doing us a favour leting us pay in instalments, please.

[pri01]

I have been to court for non-payment of coucil tax, or rates as they were called in early days. I cannot convey in words how scared I was in my accepting their kind offer which basically gave me another chance to redeem myself. On reflection, having read lots of information from the Freeman-On-The-Land dection I see things very differently.

I have asked a couple of lazy questions in other threads, but I have then gone on to research a little more and would like to know if I am on the right track.

Anything to do with money, debt, commerce etc. is governed by Admiralty law. However, when disputes arise ie. people owe money they are conned into believing that they are being dealt with by Common law. That is, they should be heared by a magistrate or dealt with in crown court.

However as debt and non-payment etc are not common criminal acts (is this correct?), they have to create a facade. That is, they hold court like type proceedings that are held in places other than assigned court rooms to carry out the scam.

I remember when I was summonsed to appear, I was not invited to the magistrates or queens court. I was invited to another building where the authoritative people were not visible but located behind closed doors. A spokesman was available in the waiting room to help.

Is this the con?

[gu3rr1lla]

If you have to pay, a trick to do is pay 10 pound a week that way you can back up your statement of not affording to pay. Usually judges rule on you for not paying but this shows that you're making an effort.

[rob menard]

I have been to court for non-payment of coucil tax, or rates as they were called in early days. I cannot convey in words how scared I was in my accepting their kind offer which basically gave me another chance to redeem myself. On reflection, having read lots of information from the Freeman-On-The-Land dection I see things very differently.

I have asked a couple of lazy questions in other threads, but I have then gone on to research a little more and would like to know if I am on the right track.

Anything to do with money, debt, commerce etc. is governed by Admiralty law. However, when disputes arise ie. people owe money they are conned into believing that they are being dealt with by Common law. That is, they should be heared by a magistrate or dealt with in crown court.

However as debt and non-payment etc are not common criminal acts (is this correct?), they have to create a facade. That is, they hold court like type proceedings that are held in places other than assigned court rooms to carry out the scam.

I remember when I was summonsed to appear, I was not invited to the magistrates or queens court. I was invited to another building where the authoritative people were not visible but located behind closed doors. A spokesman was available in the waiting room to help.

Is this the con?

You are very very close. It is an administrative tribunal where they are providing you with a service of administering your affairs and taking care of you.

I think you are stretching it however in thinking that it has anything to do with money, or more accurately its use opens that Admiralty door. Money can be used outside that framework and using it does not imply acceptance of that jurisdiction.

Rob

[Ian2day]

I also remember a few years ago being summoned to the local magistrates court building for non payment. However upon arriving I was most relieved to be allowed to agree terms with the clerk sat at a foldaway desk. It was a very dubious set up now I think back to it all. Almost like one of those find the lady card trick street hustlers. Giving the impression of authority to the unaware by setting up the fast fold away table in the entrance lobby of a hotel or something.

I did see something about council tax in spain being £90 a year for three properties in some relocation show. So it just goes to show how people in the United Kingdom are ripped off all of the time by those who are supposed to serve us.

[rob menard]

May I see a copy of the document they send to compel attendance please?

[Ian2day]

It was about 15 years ago now, so I doubt that I still have it.

[rewind_bo]

Was in the same boat a couple of years ago.

Got a court summons letter saying we owed some money for the council tax. Rang them up and they agreed we didnt owe anything but we were paying late (again because of pay dates).

The person on the other end of the phone just kept saying i had to go to court.

I didnt bother going as i knew i didnt owe anything and in an actual court new i would win hands down. This is just a scam to scare people into paying - like the OP stated, just because you are in a court building its not actually anything to do with the court.

I never heard anything else from it.

One time i actually did owe money (years ago). they wrote to me saying i could pay what i owed monthly on top of my current monthly payments, as i said i couldnt afford to pay it off in full.

[pri01]

You are very very close. It is an administrative tribunal where they are providing you with a service of administering your affairs and taking care of you.

I think you are stretching it however in thinking that it has anything to do with money, or more accurately its use opens that Admiralty door. Money can be used outside that framework and using it does not imply acceptance of that jurisdiction.

Rob

Thanks for this, I am gradually picking things up and developing more of an understanding.

[angelthecat]

I would except their order on payment of the bill presented for fulfilling that order. if you order somthing then you must pay for that order before delivery unless credit has been pre-arranged,
makes sense to me.

[windeyaho]

This whole thing sounds like the Sheriff of Nottingham rides again! This is serfdom from the middle ages. It's coming to the states too with carbon tax, cap and trade and the health care plan. Where is Robin Hood when you really need him? Not making light of this at all but we need a way to circumvent the bogus laws and go on with our lives and we need a front runner who can start the momentum going. I'm too old to engage in the struggle that something like this would take but I would sure love to.

[jimmi]

I've just had fifty quid extra put on top of my bill because of late payment, I'm not bothered by it tho' so I'm not requiring any advice.

There is info on tpuc from someone who challenged their council on the lawfulness of the council tax and the end result was an admmission by the council that they have no lawful right to demand that anyone pays this tax.

The precedent has been made!

Now all we need is for some kind person ( I mean man/woman) to show us less knowledgeable people how to deal with it. I am asking for draft letters (notices ?) that will give us the opportunity to challenge this tax en masse.

I challenged my bill this year by replying to the council with my own notices and it was all going just as described on the tpuc site but eventually I decided that my own personal knowledge was not sufficient to see it through and I have ended up paying.
I have no difficulty accepting the fact that I feel forced to pay because of my own fear and that is the only reason that I am paying.

I would have a lot less fear if I knew that there were hundreds if not thousands of like minded people doing the same as me.

We have a real opportunity to shine here, nobody likes paying this tax and even the sleepiest of sheeple would wake up if they knew that there were others around them who were not paying and not being penalised for it.

[klogger]

Jimmi, I assume that you are talking about the recent article on www.nocounciltax.com? If so then you should re-read it carefully as it never admits that council tax is unlawful at all. That is spin from the site admin that I have already picked him up on it couple of times. I am not saying that the OP's interpretation here is incorrect in any way but that there has been no precedent set on council tax - certainly not through the article on the above mentioned web site.

It sounds like the process described in this thread is pretty common (I have read about this elsewhere as well - a totally separate case) and that you are also being targeted. Keep your calm with them and I am sure you will have little trouble with them. I would also suggest looking at any summons you receive very carefully. Maybe it is possible to counter claim based on the fraud of impersonating a court official - that is if a court official does not sign the summons. Does anyone know if anyone can issue a summons to court (as in the case described in this thread) or must it be a court official? That is what I would look into at any rate and then if correct, contact the police and take the bar-stard's to the cleaners.

[trix]

I have no advice but I just wanted to say this is total BS and fuck them.

[freemanpete]

Is there anywhere on the paperwork they send you a REMITTENCE? or REMITTENCE ADVICE?

Also, as per the Bills of Exchange Act, you are not obliged to pay anything if it is not in the form of a Proper Bill.
A Proper Bill is signed, has the words Bill on it, and is supported with a Contract.
Do you have a Contract with that Corporation?
Is Council Tax a By-Law?
A By-Law is a rule of Corporation, and only enforceable through CONTRACT.
Peace eh?