PDA

View Full Version : I'm Considering Leaving Freemasonry


thelonious
18-08-2008, 06:46 PM
No, I'm not joking.

logic bomb
18-08-2008, 06:47 PM
Are you going to tell us why?

element
18-08-2008, 06:52 PM
Bring on the next ''revelations of a family insider'' :D

91181
18-08-2008, 06:54 PM
Lmao .. whats up? you realised that masonic light at the end of the tunnel is really Satan with a fuck off flame thrower...????

tinmenace
18-08-2008, 06:56 PM
No, I'm not joking.

I'd like to know why also, but ultimately the reason doesn't matter. It's the right thing to do. Deny them your energy source.

Good luck to ya.


Tin :)

serpentoffire
18-08-2008, 06:58 PM
No, I'm not joking.

Leo Zagami is waiting for you with open arms :D:D:D

eternal_spirit
18-08-2008, 07:02 PM
Had a feeling you were an okay guy..(freemason or not)
I never disliked you really anyway, had some heated debates but hey....Good luck whatever you decide to do.

thelonious
18-08-2008, 07:10 PM
Are you going to tell us why?

Frustration.

I still strongly believe in the teachings and principles of Freemasonry, but lately the level of hypocrisy I've been experiencing is just getting too much.

I've devoted hundreds (if not thousands) of hours to Freemasonry. I'm a Past Master in all bodies, have served as district deputy, director of work, etc. So as much time as I've dedicated to it, I feel like I have the right to criticize.

1. I live in the southern USA. While most Grand Lodges recognize Prince Hall Masonry (predominantly black membership) the GL's here do not. The hypocrisy stems from the fact that when a man is being initiated into every degree of Masonry, he is told that all men are created equal. Yet, there are so many Masons who don't care anything about what Masonry teaches here, they just don't want to "recognize blacks".

2. Masonry is supposed to be non-sectarian, and says so in the ritual. But conservative Christians are hijacking Freemasonry for their own ends. In some Lodges non-Christians will not be initiated even though this is a serious breach of Masonic law and tradition.

3. The Scottish Rite recently "revised" (and in several cases completely re-wrote) its initiation degree rituals. My primary purpose in joining the Masons was to learn more about mysticism. However, most of the concepts based around mysticism and the occult have now been completely removed, apparently in an attempt to be politically correct and not offend Masons who are conservative Christians. Thus, the whole point of even having the rituals seems to have been lost, or close to it.

4. Freemasonry is supposed to be non-political. In the southern USA, however, the fraternity is being used by unscrupulous members to push the Republican Party's agenda. As a Liberal, I find this offensive.

5. Grand Lodges are still not holding the Shrine accountable for the crimes involving the so-called "Royal Order of Jesters", an exclusive club for Shriners. Members of this organization have been linked to sex crimes while acting in the name of the organization, and everyone seems to just want to ignore it.

The only reason I haven't already left is because my own Lodge has some really good guys in it, and are close friends. They aren't racists, and they're critical of the same things I am. It gives me hope that if we stick together, we can have a hand in changing it for the better.

The problem here is that too many Masons use the Lodge as a way to pat each other on the back, talk about how good they are, and then go home, without a second thought as to what Freemasonry actually teaches. If Masons as a whole would practice what they preach, I wouldn't consider leaving it in a million years. But if things don't begin to change, there are other things I can devote my time to.

tinmenace
18-08-2008, 07:50 PM
Frustration.

I still strongly believe in the teachings and principles of Freemasonry, but lately the level of hypocrisy I've been experiencing is just getting too much.

I've devoted hundreds (if not thousands) of hours to Freemasonry. I'm a Past Master in all bodies, have served as district deputy, director of work, etc. So as much time as I've dedicated to it, I feel like I have the right to criticize.

1. I live in the southern USA. While most Grand Lodges recognize Prince Hall Masonry (predominantly black membership) the GL's here do not. The hypocrisy stems from the fact that when a man is being initiated into every degree of Masonry, he is told that all men are created equal. Yet, there are so many Masons who don't care anything about what Masonry teaches here, they just don't want to "recognize blacks".

2. Masonry is supposed to be non-sectarian, and says so in the ritual. But conservative Christians are hijacking Freemasonry for their own ends. In some Lodges non-Christians will not be initiated even though this is a serious breach of Masonic law and tradition.

3. The Scottish Rite recently "revised" (and in several cases completely re-wrote) its initiation degree rituals. My primary purpose in joining the Masons was to learn more about mysticism. However, most of the concepts based around mysticism and the occult have now been completely removed, apparently in an attempt to be politically correct and not offend Masons who are conservative Christians. Thus, the whole point of even having the rituals seems to have been lost, or close to it.

4. Freemasonry is supposed to be non-political. In the southern USA, however, the fraternity is being used by unscrupulous members to push the Republican Party's agenda. As a Liberal, I find this offensive.

5. Grand Lodges are still not holding the Shrine accountable for the crimes involving the so-called "Royal Order of Jesters", an exclusive club for Shriners. Members of this organization have been linked to sex crimes while acting in the name of the organization, and everyone seems to just want to ignore it.

The only reason I haven't already left is because my own Lodge has some really good guys in it, and are close friends. They aren't racists, and they're critical of the same things I am. It gives me hope that if we stick together, we can have a hand in changing it for the better.

The problem here is that too many Masons use the Lodge as a way to pat each other on the back, talk about how good they are, and then go home, without a second thought as to what Freemasonry actually teaches. If Masons as a whole would practice what they preach, I wouldn't consider leaving it in a million years. But if things don't begin to change, there are other things I can devote my time to.



Yes, eventually the hypocrisy filters down to a level where many can see it and feel it, yet so many can not, or will not - blinded by their dogma. I'm just so proud of you. Listen to your heart, and do what feels right to you. This is a do-it-yourself process, and everyone is responsible for their own actions and choices, including your good friends. Take care of you first, and then help the others, if they choose to be helped.

I'm soooo pulling for you on this. If you leave, you're denying them the very fuel they NEED to do what they do AND get away with it.

Again, good luck to you.




PS, a friend of ours is a Prince Hall Freemason (we live in NE Florida) and he has also complained about how he's been asked to participate in things that go against his morals and integrity but has done it because it was for the benefit of a brother. He's rethinking his membership too.

This is all very good news. :)

amethyst
18-08-2008, 07:59 PM
Self reflection is a good thing.

91181
18-08-2008, 08:05 PM
I like this thread:D

kblood
18-08-2008, 08:18 PM
Hi Thelonious,
I have no doubt that if you leave Freemasonry, you will find other ways to keep researching mysticism and share it with others. If Freemasonry did only do as it said it is doing, then I would have nothing against it. In truth I dont really have anything against Freemasonry, but too much points towards Freemasons being involved with conspiracies throughout history. So I am at least suspicious of it.

I wonder if you would have been told more about Freemasonry if you got to the 33rd degree. I still think Freemasonry might become quite different at that point.

On the bright side, with all the free time you will be getting, you can use on actually researching mysticism or other mysteries. I would recommend looking into the secret nazi societies that were probably back engineering UFOs, and the follow that came from it. Like project paperclip and Area 51. In WW2 the flying saucers they made were called Vril discs. I think there is a nice vid about it on google video or youtube called secrets of the third reich. Also "Dreamland Secret Base" should come up with a good 10 part documentary about what happened later on in the US, and a bit about whats also going on in Russia with these matters.

More and more evidence about the Hollow Earth is comming out it seems, or at least more and more people talking about it. A researcher called Nassim even made it seem logical by comparing planets to atoms. Atoms are hollow with an outer shell and an inner power core, and so it seems it could be a natural state for planets as well.

When it comes to symbolism as I think you are also quite interested in, there seems to be some good stuff about ancient technology, revealed a bit through the symbols used in Egypt and other ancient civilisations:
Ancient Technology (Part 1) - YouTube

Well, have fun and good luck to you :)

delamo1999
18-08-2008, 08:22 PM
I know this may be a shift in this topic, but how can I find out if someone I know is a mason.

:)

kasalt
18-08-2008, 08:25 PM
...too much points towards Freemasons being involved with conspiracies throughout history. So I am at least suspicious of it.

You can say that again. Take a look at this quote from Manly P. Hall in David Icke's recent newsletter:

Manly P. Hall, the 33rd Degree Freemason and 'Masonry's Greatest Philosopher', said: '... it is so difficult to determine the position of the ancient initiates ... They are the invisible powers behind the thrones of earth, and men are but marionettes, dancing while the invisible ones pull the strings. We see the dancer, but the master mind that does the work remains concealed by the cloak of silence.'


Considering the way things have gone, I have a hard time believing that these "ancient initiates" have our best interests in mind.

tinmenace
18-08-2008, 08:27 PM
I know this may be a shift in this topic, but how can I find out if someone I know is a mason.

:)

Most will admit it if you ask them, except for politicians and the likes....

thelonious
18-08-2008, 08:27 PM
[COLOR="Navy"][SIZE="4"][FONT="Century Gothic"]



Yes, eventually the hypocrisy filters down to a level where many can see it and feel it, yet so many can not, or will not - blinded by their dogma.

Thing is though, it's not the dogma I have a problem with. I believe in the teachings of Freemasonry: social justice, universal brotherhood, democratic government by the people, religious freedom, separation of church and state, and equality.

But Masons are the ones that are supposed to be fighting *for* these things, not against them. I'm not saying that all Masons are hypocrites, but the ones that are are ruining it. Time was when Masonic Lodges were the center of intellectual development, progressive science, and spiritual contemplation. That's quickly becoming a thing of the past, and in many cases, has *already* become a thing of the past.

I started doing intense research on Masonic membership recently for a Masonic magazine. In the United States, somewhere between 7% and 10% of Freemasons are "active", i.e., attend Masonic events and functions. The remaining 90% - 93% of Masons don't attend any Masonic functions at all. They pay their annual dues every year but don't participate.

I started contacting some of these brothers to find out why they don't participate. I kept getting the same answers, especially among the younger members. They were interested in self-development, philosophy, esoterica, etc. After they became Masons, however, they became disgruntled about racism, or people pushing politics or religion, and things of that nature. These guys were almost all educated, intelligent, and were gentlemen. They would have made excellent Masons.

The straw that broke the camel's back came last week when attended a Lodge I used to visit a lot, but hadn't been there in a while. It was mentioned that the Grand Lodge of Ancient Free and Accepted Masons of North Carolina would hold its annual convention in the fall, and would vote on the question of whether to recognize the Grand Lodge of Prince Hall Masons of North Carolina.

From some of the comments that came out on the floor, I almost thought I'd wandered into a KKK meeting. I should have walked out in protest, but to be honest, I was too stunned. I couldn't believe that Masons were behaving like that, and even worse, the district representative was present.

I kept thinking, how can these guys call themselves Masons? Masonry teaches equality...so why don't these guys believe in it?

But they're not the only ones. I've heard snide comments from a lot of people concerning the upcoming PH recognition vote.

You may be interested in one of my friend's blogs. He is a Georgia Mason that no longer participates in Masonry because of stuff like that, and is now critical of Masonry. His writings are definitely insightful, and he catches a lot of flack from some Masons, but I haven't found anything in his writings untrue. His online name is The Widow's Son, and his blog, The Burning Taper, can be read here:

http://burningtaper.blogspot.com/

thelonious
18-08-2008, 08:32 PM
You can say that again. Take a look at this quote from Manly P. Hall in David Icke's recent newsletter:



Considering the way things have gone, I have a hard time believing that these "ancient initiates" have our best interests in mind.

I am a great admirer of Manly P. Hall. His writings at least in part influenced me to become a Mason.

If Hall were alive today, he would not be very impressed with the state of the Craft.

delamo1999
18-08-2008, 08:33 PM
Most will admit it if you ask them, except for politicians and the likes....


The person in question basically talked around the subject when I brought it up.:)

thelonious
18-08-2008, 08:38 PM
Hi Thelonious,
I have no doubt that if you leave Freemasonry, you will find other ways to keep researching mysticism and share it with others.

Indeed. This is something else I've thought about seriously. There is some mysticism in Masonry, but it's pretty much all ritualistic. Most practicing Masons don't know or care anything about mysticism, and I have found more fulfillment in that category *outside* of Masonry.


I wonder if you would have been told more about Freemasonry if you got to the 33rd degree. I still think Freemasonry might become quite different at that point.

The 33rd is the highest degree in one branch of Masonry called the Scottish Rite. I'm a 32nd degree, so have never actually seen the 33rd. But I have read several older versions, including the pike version in manuscript form. It's just another Templar degree, based on the Masonic Constitutions of 1786 and the theory that Frederick the Great was a Templar.

Also, as mentioned, the Supreme Council recently revised its rituals, and in doing so, pretty much eliminated anything even remotely interesting or esoteric.

thelonious
18-08-2008, 08:39 PM
The person in question basically talked around the subject when I brought it up.:)

Masons, at least in the US, are generally open about membership. Most wear Masonic rings or have Masonic decals on their cars.

jayelowell
18-08-2008, 08:41 PM
imma put a mason decal on my car... maybe it will stop the police from pulling me over! lol

tinmenace
18-08-2008, 08:42 PM
Thing is though, it's not the dogma I have a problem with. I believe in the teachings of Freemasonry: social justice, universal brotherhood, democratic government by the people, religious freedom, separation of church and state, and equality.

But Masons are the ones that are supposed to be fighting *for* these things, not against them. I'm not saying that all Masons are hypocrites, but the ones that are are ruining it. Time was when Masonic Lodges were the center of intellectual development, progressive science, and spiritual contemplation. That's quickly becoming a thing of the past, and in many cases, has *already* become a thing of the past.

I started doing intense research on Masonic membership recently for a Masonic magazine. In the United States, somewhere between 7% and 10% of Freemasons are "active", i.e., attend Masonic events and functions. The remaining 90% - 93% of Masons don't attend any Masonic functions at all. They pay their annual dues every year but don't participate.

I started contacting some of these brothers to find out why they don't participate. I kept getting the same answers, especially among the younger members. They were interested in self-development, philosophy, esoterica, etc. After they became Masons, however, they became disgruntled about racism, or people pushing politics or religion, and things of that nature. These guys were almost all educated, intelligent, and were gentlemen. They would have made excellent Masons.

The straw that broke the camel's back came last week when attended a Lodge I used to visit a lot, but hadn't been there in a while. It was mentioned that the Grand Lodge of Ancient Free and Accepted Masons of North Carolina would hold its annual convention in the fall, and would vote on the question of whether to recognize the Grand Lodge of Prince Hall Masons of North Carolina.

From some of the comments that came out on the floor, I almost thought I'd wandered into a KKK meeting. I should have walked out in protest, but to be honest, I was too stunned. I couldn't believe that Masons were behaving like that, and even worse, the district representative was present.

I kept thinking, how can these guys call themselves Masons? Masonry teaches equality...so why don't these guys believe in it?

But they're not the only ones. I've heard snide comments from a lot of people concerning the upcoming PH recognition vote.

You may be interested in one of my friend's blogs. He is a Georgia Mason that no longer participates in Masonry because of stuff like that, and is now critical of Masonry. His writings are definitely insightful, and he catches a lot of flack from some Masons, but I haven't found anything in his writings untrue. His online name is The Widow's Son, and his blog, The Burning Taper, can be read here:

http://burningtaper.blogspot.com/




As the tide turns, and the veil is being lifted from the true nature of things around us, we can see things for what they REALLY are.

Dude, you're seeing freemasonry for what it REALLY is. It IS about division, always has been, only now it's becoming more and more obvious, and less tolerated by those whose moral compasses are functioning properly.

BTW, my dogma comment wasn't aimed at you, but at the majority of the herd that call themselves freemasons. They can't see the injustice of division because they're living with the results of someone else's thinking (= dogma), and seem completely incapable of escape.

What freemasonry SAYS and what it DOES are clearly two completely different things, and now you see it.

Anyway, please take what I've said and just digest it for a minute without thinking about a response. Just feel what it is I'm saying to you. ;)

tinmenace
18-08-2008, 08:45 PM
The person in question basically talked around the subject when I brought it up.:)

Hmmm, my sense is that he likes that you're so nosey about it and is playing a game with you, but isn't actually a mason.

If he's not openly admitting or denying it, you have to wonder what he's hiding. I think he's playing silly buggers with you.

:)

barney_rubble
18-08-2008, 08:48 PM
No, I'm not joking.


Don't give up hope.

I will PM you.

serpentoffire
18-08-2008, 08:48 PM
Frustration.

I still strongly believe in the teachings and principles of Freemasonry, but lately the level of hypocrisy I've been experiencing is just getting too much.

I've devoted hundreds (if not thousands) of hours to Freemasonry. I'm a Past Master in all bodies, have served as district deputy, director of work, etc. So as much time as I've dedicated to it, I feel like I have the right to criticize.

1. I live in the southern USA. While most Grand Lodges recognize Prince Hall Masonry (predominantly black membership) the GL's here do not. The hypocrisy stems from the fact that when a man is being initiated into every degree of Masonry, he is told that all men are created equal. Yet, there are so many Masons who don't care anything about what Masonry teaches here, they just don't want to "recognize blacks".

2. Masonry is supposed to be non-sectarian, and says so in the ritual. But conservative Christians are hijacking Freemasonry for their own ends. In some Lodges non-Christians will not be initiated even though this is a serious breach of Masonic law and tradition.

3. The Scottish Rite recently "revised" (and in several cases completely re-wrote) its initiation degree rituals. My primary purpose in joining the Masons was to learn more about mysticism. However, most of the concepts based around mysticism and the occult have now been completely removed, apparently in an attempt to be politically correct and not offend Masons who are conservative Christians. Thus, the whole point of even having the rituals seems to have been lost, or close to it.

4. Freemasonry is supposed to be non-political. In the southern USA, however, the fraternity is being used by unscrupulous members to push the Republican Party's agenda. As a Liberal, I find this offensive.

5. Grand Lodges are still not holding the Shrine accountable for the crimes involving the so-called "Royal Order of Jesters", an exclusive club for Shriners. Members of this organization have been linked to sex crimes while acting in the name of the organization, and everyone seems to just want to ignore it.

The only reason I haven't already left is because my own Lodge has some really good guys in it, and are close friends. They aren't racists, and they're critical of the same things I am. It gives me hope that if we stick together, we can have a hand in changing it for the better.

The problem here is that too many Masons use the Lodge as a way to pat each other on the back, talk about how good they are, and then go home, without a second thought as to what Freemasonry actually teaches. If Masons as a whole would practice what they preach, I wouldn't consider leaving it in a million years. But if things don't begin to change, there are other things I can devote my time to.

I believe that freemasonry lost its primary goal of continuation of Royal Art. Their initiated are not spiritually elevated (illuminated) but only very influential and riches. All rituals inside freemasonry hide the alchemical teaching of ancient Platone, Plotino, Aristotles, Agrippa and before of the Egyptian and Babylonian mystery schools. All this knowlege is lost because money prevales over the ideals. This is true in the catholic religion as in the freemasonry. We are loosing misticism and magic for the virtual power of the money. Money is the new Grand Architect of (Jews) Universe. And the ancient Lucifer will not help you more.

tinmenace
18-08-2008, 08:51 PM
...All this knowlege is lost because money prevales over the ideals...We are loosing misticism and magic for the virtual power of the money. Money is the new Grand Architect ...

I agree

thelonious
18-08-2008, 08:55 PM
What freemasonry SAYS and what it DOES are clearly two completely different things.

That's true, at least around here. I'm not condemning the whole organization. Masonry in the west coast, for example, has recognized Prince Hall Masonry for years. When I was in California a couple of years ago I visited a few different Lodges. There were black PH Masons in them, and everybody got along fine practicing genuine brotherhood.

Freemasonry was meant to be a beacon for truth. But "Freemasonry" after all is just an idea. All organizations can only be as good as their members, and if their members are not going to be beacons of truth, the organizations certainly can't be.

A group of former Masons, with basically the same complaints, are now starting up a new organization, based on "primitive Masonry". No racism, progressive social platforms, and even the recognition of feminine Masonry. They call themselves the "Grand Orient of the United States", and The Widow's Son has been updating info about them on his blog. So far, they've opened a few Lodges in the US, and are looking at opening more.

It may be doomed to failure, and the "regular" Masonic bodies are attacking them pretty venomously in print. But on the other hand, like I said, the regular Masonic bodies can only retain between 7 and 10 percent of its own membership while the liberal Grand Orient is growing, and seem to take Masonic teachings seriously.

tinmenace
18-08-2008, 09:00 PM
That's true, at least around here. I'm condemning the whole organization. Masonry in the west coast, for example, has recognized Prince Hall Masonry for years. When I was in California a couple of years ago I visited a few different Lodges. There were black PH Masons in them, and everybody got along fine practicing genuine brotherhood.

Freemasonry was meant to be a beacon for truth. But "Freemasonry" after all is just an idea. All organizations can only be as good as their members, and if their members are not going to be beacons of truth, the organizations certainly can't be.

A group of former Masons, with basically the same complaints, are now starting up a new organization, based on "primitive Masonry". No racism, progressive social platforms, and even the recognition of feminine Masonry. They call themselves the "Grand Orient of the United States", and The Widow's Son has been updating info about them on his blog. So far, they've opened a few Lodges in the US, and are looking at opening more.

It may be doomed to failure, and the "reguar" Masonic bodies are attacking them pretty vennomusly in print. But on the other hand, like I said, the regular Masonic bodies can only retain between 7 and 10 percent of its own membership while the liberal Grand Orient is growing, and seem to take Masonic teachings seriously.

Bravo! The fact that the Grand Orient is being attacked says it all, doesn't it? ;)

A sincere tip of the hat to you thelonious. ;)

thelucifer
18-08-2008, 10:37 PM
No, I'm not joking.

Secrecy, male chauvinism, racism, are poisons, and then there is the whole DC beast thing.

I too, sensed you are a good man.

There are lots of great men being used and made useful idiots/copper tops.

You once asked me why I was attacking masonry, I wasnt, I was just looking truthfully at it and telling what I saw.
It is masonry thats doing the attacking, a most subtle beast it is.

Your post/thread almost brings me to tears, hoping the best for you.

lightgiver
18-08-2008, 10:40 PM
Why do people have to belong to organizations anyway,is it not best to follow ones own path;) and just be free:)

jamesk
19-08-2008, 12:15 AM
No, I'm not joking.

If I were in your shoes thelonious,i'd consider how i can best serve my fellow man. Whether you can do this best from being in freemasonry or by leaving it, is for you to decide.

I think its wise not to attach too strongly to idealistic, egalitarian ideals ("social justice, universal brotherhood, democratic government by the people, religious freedom, separation of church and state, and equality"), because then you'll find faults where ever you go simply because humanity has not reached that state. You'll find similar attitudes that you find offensive in people and organizations the world over.

BTW: in the "the matrix", in the last of the trilogy, there is a scene where "the Oracle" (who for me represents the illuminated ones, Freemasons, enlightened ones, etc), allows herself to be taken by Mr Smith (who for me represents the Ego, me, me, me, "me too", and its Mr Smith who posed the biggest threat to everyone in or out of the matrix). This I believe is what is happening to freemasonry in the last several decades, where egos seem to have taken over, and concepts of universal brotherhood have disappeared.

thetonic
19-08-2008, 01:44 AM
Im glad you came to the David Icke forum Thelonious... And I know you did so for a reason, and that reason was to re-align yourself on the path of truth...

You know what your spirit needs to do, and that is all that matters

Best of luck to you

;)

cruise4
19-08-2008, 08:49 AM
Hi Thelonious, it all gets a bit uncomfortable with a good look, and not just freemasonry, and I totally go along with the principals being hijacked thing. But I urge you to stay within and do your best there. Thats where its most needed. I expect many masons are clueless about what is going on throughout society and allies, bridge building and Revelation is needed. Most are still your brothers and believe it or not, ours. Whatever you decide, thanks for posting your thoughts over the last few months. I certainly learnt a thing or two.

Need to change your name to theloneliness if you do leave :D

quetzalcoatl
19-08-2008, 10:11 AM
Hi Thelonious,

It must be dis-heartening to watch an organization that you've been apart of for a while & passionately believed in 'turn to shite' before your eyes.. I agree with Cruise4 here; hang tough as long as you can stand it.. Simply because that's one place that good peoples are needed (& they can be found there also - to add some equilibrium). Ultimately the decisions yours. I'm just soo sure that whatever 'evil skeletons' may or may-not be hiding in Masonic closets (& it doesn't look to shit-hot for the upper hierarchy) will eventually be rooted out from with-in.

It was always going to be a organic revolution/evolution that successfully eradicates societal dysfunctions - on whatever scale. So good sorts & peace-keepers always come in handy in such organizations/circumstances.

Cheers for the link to The Widows Sons blog.. I'll be checking dat out. Also, This Grand Orient of US sounds like a promising new prospect.

All the best.

celtic isis
19-08-2008, 11:14 AM
A group of former Masons, with basically the same complaints, are now starting up a new organization, based on "primitive Masonry". No racism, progressive social platforms, and even the recognition of feminine Masonry. They call themselves the "Grand Orient of the United States", and The Widow's Son has been updating info about them on his blog. So far, they've opened a few Lodges in the US, and are looking at opening more.


this is what's happening here too in a lodge i know of, great stuff. :)

Said lodge is starting this all off by opening it's doors to "shock horror" female masons this september, but there's huge upheavel going on with the other members throughout the region, namely disliking the control from the capital...

this is great, as i was trying to say before, the lower masons who are actually there for the knowledge inherited from "primitive masonry", they are true people, and are beginning to see the masonry system for what it really is now, a recruitment base. There are a lot of rebel masons out there who remember the true craft who won't bow and serve and it's good to know it.

funny how when i tried to speak on my partner's behalf i got slated then and you're all being so spportive of thelonious. Not all masons are evil cock sucking servants, you're urging him to stay there, and like fight for change from inside masonry itself, when i was labelled as letting down humanity for being with a mason.

typical.

celtic isis
19-08-2008, 11:23 AM
PS, a friend of ours is a Prince Hall Freemason (we live in NE Florida) and he has also complained about how he's been asked to participate in things that go against his morals and integrity but has done it because it was for the benefit of a brother. He's rethinking his membership too.




Nice! can't believe it.

spot the difference.

thelonious
19-08-2008, 06:22 PM
Said lodge is starting this all off by opening it's doors to "shock horror" female masons this september, but there's huge upheavel going on with the other members throughout the region, namely disliking the control from the capital...

In a couple of cases, there have been a few entire Lodges who have seceded from "Masonic system" lately. The most famous case is Halcyon Lodge in Cleveland, whose secession caused a pretty big stink in Ohio. They declared their independence from mainsteam Masonry, and have recently joined the newly-formed Grand Orient of the United States. While Grand Orient Lodges only initiate males, female Masons from feminine and mixed gender Lodges have visitation rights at all meetings.

eternal_spirit
19-08-2008, 07:18 PM
I smell a rat or two

http://www.wallpaperez.info/wallpaper/movie/m/Ratatouille-Skinner-551.jpg

tinmenace
19-08-2008, 10:12 PM
Nice! can't believe it.

spot the difference.

I didn't seek him out. He's my husband's apprentice, and we've taken him under our wing, so to speak. It was only later on that we found out that he's a PH freemason. Trust me, his freemasonry membership is something I pick on every time he fucks up morally....like attending dogfights, for example.

"Aren't they supposed to be teaching you to respect life, bud?"

Like many black men in the south, he joined freemasonry more for the security of it than for anything else, because trust me, he's not very clued up about respecting life in all its forms. His reverence for women is shockingly poor, and he somehow thinks this is his right, as a man, to belittle women.

Hmmm....not good. He's lucky he doesn't try it on me. He hasn't seen this sista kick ass yet. ;) j/k

When he's in our home he sees something different, and we're hoping that it'll help him to see the other choices available to him, because I can tell you, without any vindictiveness, that his lodge ain't teaching him anything about anything. It seems to me that it's more of some kind of mafia membership. He told me that he knows that his son will always be taken care of now that he's a freemason. Wow! That's a choice based on fear, and it sounds a lot like organized crime to me.

Anyway, all truth. I wouldn't knowingly bring a freemason into our home. They can wait on the steps outside. That's how little I think of them, but this fella was already part of our family when we found out...



:)

quetzalcoatl
19-08-2008, 11:19 PM
I try not to do these things.. So I hope this can been taken with-out much offense yet a tad of 'sobering' tongue n cheek implied.

I smell a rat or two

http://www.wallpaperez.info/wallpaper/movie/m/Ratatouille-Skinner-551.jpg

I still reckon that your sense serve you well - very well indeed. Not a bad post. :cool:

noobcybot
20-08-2008, 01:49 AM
Are you feeling that low level Freemasonry is a back scratchers club? You thought there would be something else? Why did you think this?
In terms of discovering the spiritual side of life, I think we have to do it on our own, not relying on a social circle, and I think it is more honarable to stand on your own two feet in all aspects of life. That is not you say someone couldant gain a lot from joining the Masons.

kweli
20-08-2008, 10:47 AM
Are you feeling that low level Freemasonry is a back scratchers club? You thought there would be something else? Why did you think this?
In terms of discovering the spiritual side of life, I think we have to do it on our own, not relying on a social circle, and I think it is more honarable to stand on your own two feet in all aspects of life. That is not you say someone couldant gain a lot from joining the Masons.

I share the same sentiments on that one.

thelonious
20-08-2008, 01:37 PM
Are you feeling that low level Freemasonry is a back scratchers club? You thought there would be something else? Why did you think this?

All so-called "regular" Freemasonry today is a social club. I don't think it can even be called a "back scratchers club"; many Masons are much more prone to stab a fellow Mason in the back than to do so to a non-member. Masonic politics these days rarely rise above the level of swiftboating. You wouldn't believe how many times I've seen a Mason swear at the altar to never speak evil of a brother behind his back, and 30 minutes later talk all kinds of shit about another Mason. There are Masons in the same Lodge that attend every meeting, but haven't spoken to one another in 20 years because they just can't stand each other.

This is what I meant when I said that I believe in Freemasonry's teachings...I'm just becoming strongly disillusioned with the fact that there are so few Masons interested in putting those teachings into practice.

You ask what I expected when I joined, and to be honest, I have to say I was a bit young and naive. I had read the works of the great Masonic philosophers and mystics, and wrongly assumed that most Masons would share their views. I expected those involved in the ritualistic work of initiating me into the degrees to be hierophants of the sacred knowledge. Instead, I very quickly discovered that they were all just going through the motions, and had no idea what the ritual meant or was trying to teach...and didn't care.

In most Masonic Lodges these days, the degree ceremonies of initiation are just a formality, and they hurry candidates through the ritual so they can get back to eating hot dogs and talking shit about each other.

And it's actually getting worse. Many Grand Lodges in the US are now giving "one day classes" in conjunction with the Scottish Rite and the Shrine so that you can "go all the way in a day". They take non-Masons in, and do all 3 degrees in the morning, making them "Master Masons". Then the Scottish Rite teams come in, and make them all "32° Masons" by the evening. Then the Shrine comes in, has a ceremonial, and hands everybody fezzes, then a banquet.

Then the candidates, perhaps a hundred or more, leave that night. That morning they were non-Masons. Now, they're all 32° Masons and Shriners, and are utterly confused, not having the slightest idea of what it was all about. Perhaps I'm a little slow, but for the life of me I can't figure out how that's supposed to make "good men better" as the modern Masonic mantra goes. The only thing I see being accomplished there is that they were able to collect a lot of initiation fees in one single pop.

In terms of discovering the spiritual side of life, I think we have to do it on our own, not relying on a social circle, and I think it is more honarable to stand on your own two feet in all aspects of life. That is not you say someone couldant gain a lot from joining the Masons.

I agree that the journal is always a personal one. But throughout history, there have always been spiritual teachers, adepts. It was some of these who invented Freemasonry.

But today's Masonry ain't what it used to be. There are *some* Masons, a vocal minority, that do have mankind's best interest at heart, and sincerely seek spiritual knowledge, along with developing skills for teaching others. But most Masonic leadership does not share this view, and are even critical of it.

quetzalcoatl
20-08-2008, 02:25 PM
All so-called "regular" Freemasonry today is a social club. I don't think it can even be called a "back scratchers club"; many Masons are much more prone to stab a fellow Mason in the back than to do so to a non-member. Masonic politics these days rarely rise above the level of swiftboating. You wouldn't believe how many times I've seen a Mason swear at the altar to never speak evil of a brother behind his back, and 30 minutes later talk all kinds of shit about another Mason. There are Masons in the same Lodge that attend every meeting, but haven't spoken to one another in 20 years because they just can't stand each other.

This is what I meant when I said that I believe in Freemasonry's teachings...I'm just becoming strongly disillusioned with the fact that there are so few Masons interested in putting those teachings into practice.

You ask what I expected when I joined, and to be honest, I have to say I was a bit young and naive. I had read the works of the great Masonic philosophers and mystics, and wrongly assumed that most Masons would share their views. I expected those involved in the ritualistic work of initiating me into the degrees to be hierophants of the sacred knowledge. Instead, I very quickly discovered that they were all just going through the motions, and had no idea what the ritual meant or was trying to teach...and didn't care.

In most Masonic Lodges these days, the degree ceremonies of initiation are just a formality, and they hurry candidates through the ritual so they can get back to eating hot dogs and talking shit about each other.

And it's actually getting worse. Many Grand Lodges in the US are now giving "one day classes" in conjunction with the Scottish Rite and the Shrine so that you can "go all the way in a day". They take non-Masons in, and do all 3 degrees in the morning, making them "Master Masons". Then the Scottish Rite teams come in, and make them all "32° Masons" by the evening. Then the Shrine comes in, has a ceremonial, and hands everybody fezzes, then a banquet.

Then the candidates, perhaps a hundred or more, leave that night. That morning they were non-Masons. Now, they're all 32° Masons and Shriners, and are utterly confused, not having the slightest idea of what it was all about. Perhaps I'm a little slow, but for the life of me I can't figure out how that's supposed to make "good men better" as the modern Masonic mantra goes. The only thing I see being accomplished there is that they were able to collect a lot of initiation fees in one single pop.


ROFL!!! Operation hide behind echelon barrier of 32° laymen.. :p There’s more enlightenment getting in a bar-fight. ;)

That sux so much - it really is a 'Boys Club' lol :D Surely the infestation isn’t that consuming..



I agree that the journal is always a personal one. But throughout history, there have always been spiritual teachers, adepts. It was some of these who invented Freemasonry.

But today's Masonry ain't what it used to be. There are *some* Masons, a vocal minority, that do have mankind's best interest at heart, and sincerely seek spiritual knowledge, along with developing skills for teaching others. But most Masonic leadership does not share this view, and are even critical of it.


Must be some good Brothers around.. Couldny find ya discussing this in ya FM Forum? Then again I can lazy..

Tis neva easy ay? Either-way - Good Luck Mate. :)

serpentoffire
20-08-2008, 04:29 PM
Reading all this stuff I start to believe that I'm more Freemasonic than original masons (maybe a little more rose-crucian for my taste). I have initiated myself to occult mysteries, I know a lot of freemasonry stuff (thank to David Icke and Jury Lina, but I read also original texts from masonic websites), I know several freemasons, I know their symbolisms and rituals in their true alchemical meaning.

Now I know that they are interested more to materialism than myself.
The destiny has a very good sense of humor. :)

quetzalcoatl
20-08-2008, 09:56 PM
Must be some good Brothers around.. Couldny find ya discussing this in ya FM Forum? Then again I can lazy..

Tis neva easy ay? Either-way - Good Luck Mate. :)

Meh!…ya may not even be apart of the FM Forum?.. Sorry if that’s an erroneous assumption. :eek:

http://www.thefreemason.com/forum/default.asp

noobcybot
20-08-2008, 11:20 PM
Thanks for that insight Thelonius, could you tell us more about what the Masonic spirtual leaders you mentioned realised?

thelonious
21-08-2008, 01:29 PM
Thanks for that insight Thelonius, could you tell us more about what the Masonic spirtual leaders you mentioned realised?

If you mean the ones that influenced me to join, the major ones were Albert Mackey, Albert Pike, Joseph Fort Newton, Paul Foster Case, and to a lesser extent, Manly Palmer Hall and A.E. Waite. Before I became a Mason I had already developed an interest in the occult, especially Rosicrucianism, Hermeticism, and Gnosticism. My studies led me to those Masonic authors mentioned above, and I was impressed by their books.

If you're interested, most of their works can be read online at www.sacred-texts.org under the "Freemasonry" and "Rosicrucian" categories.

turquoisefire777
21-08-2008, 01:55 PM
Thing is though, it's not the dogma I have a problem with. I believe in the teachings of Freemasonry: social justice, universal brotherhood, democratic government by the people, religious freedom, separation of church and state, and equality.

But Masons are the ones that are supposed to be fighting *for* these things, not against them. I'm not saying that all Masons are hypocrites,...

if i was to offer you a glass of 99% pure organic fruit juice, and you discover it has 1% lethal poison in it...do you think you could survive the drink if you ignored the obious toxic thread?

that is the case with "secret societies"...becuase they are "societies with secrets" you cannot afford not to know about, simply because it involves the destruction of all the good that you initially thought you stood for. remember who Pike said Masons are really worshipping...

thelonious
21-08-2008, 04:34 PM
if i was to offer you a glass of 99% pure organic fruit juice, and you discover it has 1% lethal poison in it...do you think you could survive the drink if you ignored the obious toxic thread?

If that were the case and your analogy holds, we couldn't really associate with anybody though.

that is the case with "secret societies"...becuase they are "societies with secrets" you cannot afford not to know about, simply because it involves the destruction of all the good that you initially thought you stood for. remember who Pike said Masons are really worshipping...

Pike and I are almost identical from a religious perspective. Pike was a Gnostic and Hermetic Kabalist, as I am. One of my major gripes with Masonry is that it's gotten away from the spirituality that Pike believed was inherent in it.

turquoisefire777
21-08-2008, 06:27 PM
If that were the case and your analogy holds, we couldn't really associate with anybody though.
.

i understand. but people get duped into believing they are doing "good" thing when they join the Masons. when someone spends time studying truth about secret societies, you at least have a choice about selling your soul to the devil...and getting opened up to demonic influence without knowing it. i'm sure you've been on this forum long enough to know the truth.

Pike and I are almost identical from a religious perspective. Pike was a Gnostic and Hermetic Kabalist, as I am. One of my major gripes with Masonry is that it's gotten away from the spirituality that Pike believed was inherent in it

but the fact stands...Freemasons worship a fallen angel.
now the choice comes where an individual must do something with his ego so that it would not hinder making what is initially a tough decision. a person will be besieged with all manners of questions about what to do next. uncertainty can cause major setbacks, but you must remember that this is the Universe of the God of True Light, and nighter is It joking about you leaving the Masons. for everything that does not support the functionality of Life...WILL be kicked out of here.

you seem to be a good man, then...do what is right, for real.

deathcultreject
21-08-2008, 07:22 PM
Frustration.

I still strongly believe in the teachings and principles of Freemasonry, but lately the level of hypocrisy I've been experiencing is just getting too much.

I've devoted hundreds (if not thousands) of hours to Freemasonry. I'm a Past Master in all bodies, have served as district deputy, director of work, etc. So as much time as I've dedicated to it, I feel like I have the right to criticize.

1. I live in the southern USA. While most Grand Lodges recognize Prince Hall Masonry (predominantly black membership) the GL's here do not. The hypocrisy stems from the fact that when a man is being initiated into every degree of Masonry, he is told that all men are created equal. Yet, there are so many Masons who don't care anything about what Masonry teaches here, they just don't want to "recognize blacks".

2. Masonry is supposed to be non-sectarian, and says so in the ritual. But conservative Christians are hijacking Freemasonry for their own ends. In some Lodges non-Christians will not be initiated even though this is a serious breach of Masonic law and tradition.

3. The Scottish Rite recently "revised" (and in several cases completely re-wrote) its initiation degree rituals. My primary purpose in joining the Masons was to learn more about mysticism. However, most of the concepts based around mysticism and the occult have now been completely removed, apparently in an attempt to be politically correct and not offend Masons who are conservative Christians. Thus, the whole point of even having the rituals seems to have been lost, or close to it.

4. Freemasonry is supposed to be non-political. In the southern USA, however, the fraternity is being used by unscrupulous members to push the Republican Party's agenda. As a Liberal, I find this offensive.

5. Grand Lodges are still not holding the Shrine accountable for the crimes involving the so-called "Royal Order of Jesters", an exclusive club for Shriners. Members of this organization have been linked to sex crimes while acting in the name of the organization, and everyone seems to just want to ignore it.

The only reason I haven't already left is because my own Lodge has some really good guys in it, and are close friends. They aren't racists, and they're critical of the same things I am. It gives me hope that if we stick together, we can have a hand in changing it for the better.


Well whatever you do, I wish you the best of luck with it.

You seem honest and you seem to have integrity.

Personaly I think that racism, sex crimes, and sectarian black-balling justifies some industrial scale whistle blowing.

It might be a good idea to do some rituals for protection and then see how far you can go with exposing the bad guys.

Corruption in secret societies can become a nasty business.

thelonious
21-08-2008, 07:59 PM
i understand. but people get duped into believing they are doing "good" thing when they join the Masons. when someone spends time studying truth about secret societies, you at least have a choice about selling your soul to the devil...and getting opened up to demonic influence without knowing it. i'm sure you've been on this forum long enough to know the truth.

Demonic influence, the devil, and all the other similar stuff are just things that people made up to either scare others into following them, or to deny personal responsibility by blaming everything on a scapegoat boogeyman.

My gripe with Masonry isn't that it's a "secret society". It's that it is largely composed of members who are hypocritical, practicing the opposite of what they preach.



but the fact stands...Freemasons worship a fallen angel.

Angels, devils, devas, tooth fairies, it's all the same. They share the same origin: the human imagination.

Freemasonry, in its purity, stands for freedom of conscience in matters of religious belief. It vaguely recognizes the existence of a higher power but does not define it.

The problem here is that Masonry has been hijacked, and in the United States is now contolled, by rightwing Christian fundamentalists. I suppose this would be OK for one who is also a Christian fundamentalist, but I'm not, thus a source of another one of my problem's with the fraternity.


you seem to be a good man, then...do what is right, for real.

Thanks!

_invisibleplane_
21-08-2008, 08:38 PM
From what I have recently learned about sacred geometry and its foundational role in the universe, by analyzing the symbolism in masonry it seems the original order embraced this ancient knowledge and would reveal it to initiates. However, I think you are right in saying that masonry has been infiltrated to various degrees and is used for hypocritical political purposes.

As masonry apparently teaches, all men are equal. So just remember, you will always have all of humanity to discuss ancient knowledge, philosophy and much more with, which is a true brotherhood that embraces everyone. We're all capable of understanding the truth. and the truth is being revealed.

element
21-08-2008, 08:55 PM
Angels, devils, devas, tooth fairies, it's all the same. They share the same origin: the human imagination.



Why would angels be in the same category as tooth fairies, santa etc. ?
Have you experienced it, how can you tell it, and say human imagination? How would we know.. .I do agree on the devil though, god/spirit being there within all that is life, there is no room for a 100% literal devil.

To get back to this, maybe you should leave freemasonry or not. The real answer is within, if you can't get more information about a more spiritual side then go looking for that outside FM. You seem to have lots of irritation and complains against Freemasonry, so it might be better to leave and stop this needless energy waste?
What about the 33th degree, what's cooking in there?

turquoisefire777
21-08-2008, 09:08 PM
Thanks!

ur welcome. :)

i'll just make one reading suggestion before wishing you all the best. i'm sure it could provide some aid:

Amazon.com: The New Revelations: A Conversation with God (9780743463034): Neale Donald Walsch: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51M4P0Y4F3L.@@AMEPARAM@@51M4P0Y4F3L

all the best with your new journey!

thetonic
22-08-2008, 12:09 AM
Why would angels be in the same category as tooth fairies, santa etc. ?
Have you experienced it, how can you tell it, and say human imagination? How would we know.. .I do agree on the devil though, god/spirit being there within all that is life, there is no room for a 100% literal devil.

To get back to this, maybe you should leave freemasonry or not. The real answer is within, if you can't get more information about a more spiritual side then go looking for that outside FM. You seem to have lots of irritation and complains against Freemasonry, so it might be better to leave and stop this needless energy waste?
What about the 33th degree, what's cooking in there?

lol, good one dude... I would leave that shit if I were you Thelonious, those lower degrees are so fucking boring

thelonious
22-08-2008, 01:38 PM
From what I have recently learned about sacred geometry and its foundational role in the universe, by analyzing the symbolism in masonry it seems the original order embraced this ancient knowledge and would reveal it to initiates.

That seems to be the case. Pythagoras, for example, is considered something of a "saint" in Masonry, and his having solved the 47th Problem of Euclid is an important element in the Master Mason's degree.

Unfortunately, there are historical inaccuracies weaved in it, in the Masonic tale. In the Masonic lecture, it is said that Pythagoras "was raised to the Sublime Degree of Master Mason". It is true that Pythagoras was an initiate to the Mysteries, but this statement would lead the new Mason to falsely believe that the actual organization of Freemasonry existed back then, when in fact it didn't.

Secondly, it is said in the Masonic lecture that Pythagoras exclaimed "Eureka!" after having solved the 47th Problem, and then sacrificed a hecatomb (hundred head of oxen). Both of these statements are incorrect. It was Archimedes (not Pythagoras) who exclaimed "Eureka!" after discovering the mathematical formula of volume while lying in his bath. And Pythagoras, being a strict vegan, was completely opposed to animal sacrifice and the consumption of animal flesh.


As masonry apparently teaches, all men are equal. So just remember, you will always have all of humanity to discuss ancient knowledge, philosophy and much more with, which is a true brotherhood that embraces everyone. We're all capable of understanding the truth. and the truth is being revealed.

That's very true. I didn't much expect to learn a lot about the mysteries in Masonry that I didn't already know by having already studied them in depth. But I did expect to congregate with people of like minds. However, in all my experiences in Masonry, I've only met a couple of Masons who were seriously interested in those things. The rest are what I call "Fork and Knife degree"...they participate in Masonry mostly for the banquets and camaraderie.

thelonious
22-08-2008, 01:44 PM
Why would angels be in the same category as tooth fairies, santa etc. ?

Because their existence is subjective instead of objective. They do not exist outside of our own imaginations.

You seem to have lots of irritation and complains against Freemasonry, so it might be better to leave and stop this needless energy waste?

I think you may be right.

What about the 33th degree, what's cooking in there?

Masonry is a loose confederation of different organizations. One of those is the Scottish Rite, which operates in a system of 33 degrees. The 33rd degree of that system is honorary, and makes the recipient an honorary member of the scottish Rite's governing board, called the Supreme Council. It is normally conferred in recognition of outstanding service.

Conspiracy theorists who oppose Masonry generally attach a lot of importance to the Scottish Rite 33rd degree. However, in reality, it's not much of a big deal. The degree itself is based on the old Templar legends.

elirien
22-08-2008, 04:06 PM
I am very pleased to read the sentences in this post. I think that you have taken a step toward individual growth by stepping out of a mass-think community. I couldn't care less if masonry is secretive or not but it is a place where doctrine is endorsed and that can't be a good thing since I think that doctrine in anyway can't be objective and supporting the evolution of ideas.

The mysteries and masonic writings can be researched outside of masonry I do believe (I did some research myself but can't say that all of it can be found outside of 'the box' so to speak). I heard that masonic libraries are open to anyone. Is that true? Many researchers like William Cooper just walked right in and read what they wanted if I remember correctly.

I wish you very well and hope that you don't leave us 'ickesters' :p alone in here. Even though some of our thoughts oppose each other you and some other masons effect on this site is very important and shouldn't be amiss. Good luck and good choice.

PS: I couldn't resist your signature. Screw Pike. I can't believe that a founder of the KKK could write even a letter about love. It's an utter paradox.

banoyes
22-08-2008, 05:28 PM
Freemasonry is the olsest thing on the planet
All Royals are Freemasons
Popes have been Freemasons
We all know the heritage of the Freemason founded USA
run by Freemason Presidents throughout history
a country that practiced genocide and slavery
a war mongering fascist country
which nuked innocents in Japan
by the order of Freemason President Truman
and threatens the entire world with annialation
The Freemason founded "City of London"
where all the worlds money flows
I am always curious when I hear
"Oh Freemasons are a loose confederation of .blah,blah.blah"
Freemasons, at the top are the most evil force on the planet
You cannot be an innocent Freemason
You are helping support a muderous ,evil cabal
Hoodwinked
How appropos.

barney_rubble
22-08-2008, 07:33 PM
Lonious I am sorry to hear of your troubles with Freemasonry.
I still think there is much good to be found in masonry - you yourself say that you believe in its teachings.

You need to find a lodge with like minded people
As I mentioned to you in a PM I think one way you might go is the "Traditional Observance Lodge" route. I have heard great things about them - though I must admit I have not experienced them first hand.

Here is a list of TO lodges in North America.
If one is close enough for you check them out - I think you may find this is what you are yearning for.
http://www.masonicrestoration.com/tomasonry/tolodges.html

Here is a quick blurb on Traditional Observance Freemasonry pasted from www.masonicrestoration.com.



Traditional Observance Freemasonry

Traditional Observance Freemasonry (TM) is a unique North American approach, consisting of best-practices in areas of philosophical discipline and successful managment, practiced in Traditional Observance Lodges (TM).

Each Traditional Observance (TO) lodge is governed by the rules and regulations of its respective Grand Lodge, from which it receives its charter. TO lodges follow the established ritual of their Grand Lodge, with some ceremonial additions, so far as they may be allowed by their Grand Lodge. TO lodges begin with the North American Masonic lodge model and enrich it with traditional initiatic elements practiced in Continental European and Latin American Freemasonry.

Traditional Observance Freemasonry is not a Masonic Rite, but rather a best-practices model. In many ways, TO Masonry is a response to some of the negative trends experienced by North American Freemasonry in recent years, aimed at reversing those trends and restoring the strength and dignity of the American Craft.

Traditional Observance Masonry is characterized by a solemn approach to holding stated communications and conferring degrees, the use of the Chamber of Reflection as part of the initiation ceremony, and demanding candidate advancement requirements.

TO lodges maintain their high standards through certification and by working within guidelines recommended by the Masonic Restoration Foundation, within the context of their respective Grand Lodge regulations.

Traditional Observance lodges have a traditional approach to Freemasonry with an emphasis on the initiatic process. They seek to continuously maintain a Masonic Culture, Initiatic Focus and Traditional Structure.

To find out more about the way Traditional Observance lodges do their Masonic work please read “The Traditional Observance Lodge.” (http://www.masonicrestoration.com/images/DVC_-_The_Traditional_Observance_Lodge.pdf)

If you think you would like to take the initiative in forming such a lodge in your jurisdiction please download the Traditional Observance Start-Up Guide (http://www.masonicrestoration.com/images/MRF_TO_Start_Guide.pdf) (200KB, January, 2007) and contact us (mailto:foundation@masonicrestoration.com) for more information.

elirien
22-08-2008, 07:39 PM
Why does it hurt you so much that he is leaving Barney? Why are you so emotionally bonded to this institution?

banoyes
22-08-2008, 08:49 PM
- I think you may find this is what you are yearning for.


Man alive can I sell you some hope,can I borrow your soul.
Here take this hood,we are here to help you.

barney_rubble
22-08-2008, 11:11 PM
Why does it hurt you so much that he is leaving Barney?
It hurts when I see a brother (or anyone for that matter) in despair and I try to help - if I can. Ultimately the choice is thelonious' to make. I am just giving him some information - what he does with is up to him. By-the-way thelonious has only said he is thinking of leaving.

Why are you so emotionally bonded to this institution?
'cause I choose to be.

lizzy
22-08-2008, 11:32 PM
Good Luck thelonius.....

dump it all, rituals as well. It is all quackery to keep you bonded , involved with lucifer......become a really freeman from all that ritualistic crap.

elirien
23-08-2008, 08:20 AM
It hurts when I see a brother (or anyone for that matter) in despair and I try to help - if I can. Ultimately the choice is thelonious' to make. I am just giving him some information - what he does with is up to him. By-the-way thelonious has only said he is thinking of leaving.


'cause I choose to be.

Well I'm not gonna put words into peoples mouths like you did right there stating that some other person is in despair or not but I can respect your choice to give him information about another lodge (what that would change in mass-think mentality is rather obvious though).

I also respect your emotional bond with a group but I don't believe that it would do much good if any at all. Don't get me wrong but I'm not just describing freemasonry here but also the 'ickesters' so to speak, or the 'christians' or the 'muslims' or any group think organization so to speak. They are just what they are: bonding. Which leads to boundaries. Well 'nuff ranting. These are just my ideas. I was just curious why you felt that way.

banoyes
23-08-2008, 01:00 PM
Respect.respect,respect
Low standards I guess
Well
I respect Hitler, he kept the trains on time
Respect???
You should have a higher regard for the word

elirien
23-08-2008, 01:33 PM
Respect.respect,respect
Low standards I guess
Well
I respect Hitler, he kept the trains on time
Respect???
You should have a higher regard for the word

what are you talking about?

banoyes
23-08-2008, 03:35 PM
but I can respect your choice to give him information

I also respect your emotional bond with a group .

I respect nothing about any Freemason , they are, by their oath, sworn liars
and you give them RESPECT !!!

Thats what I mean.
What do you mean?

elirien
24-08-2008, 03:41 PM
I respect nothing about any Freemason , they are, by their oath, sworn liars
and you give them RESPECT !!!

Thats what I mean.
What do you mean?

Every individual takes different steps to personal growth. I can respect that. If its Freemasonry, Illuminati, Roshinea, Hashashin, Turkey, U.K. whatever. Don't get hung up on names. Respect doesn't mean endorse or support in my book. Why do you care what I respect or don't? That's definitely not the topic in here.

banoyes
24-08-2008, 04:20 PM
Every individual takes different steps to personal growth. I can respect that. If its Freemasonry, Illuminati, Roshinea, Hashashin, Turkey, U.K. whatever. Don't get hung up on names. Respect doesn't mean endorse or support in my book. Why do you care what I respect or don't? That's definitely not the topic in here.

I don't care at all,you cannot be everything
you cannot be a Freemason and a spiritual person
You pretend to be spiritual,and have a quote from a spiritual post
If you cannot recognize good from evil what use are you
you bow to every authority

elirien
24-08-2008, 04:32 PM
I don't care at all,you cannot be everything
you cannot be a Freemason and a spiritual person
You pretend to be spiritual,and have a quote from a spiritual post
If you cannot recognize good from evil what use are you
you bow to every authority

Those are all your observations.
I am me ;)

I am not going to continue this conversation in here since it revolves around me and not theolonius' decision to leave freemasonry.

PM me if you like.

banoyes
24-08-2008, 04:59 PM
Those are all your observations.
I am me ;)

I am not going to continue this conversation in here since it revolves around me and not theolonius' decision to leave freemasonry.

PM me if you like.

Naw
this was to let you know that people like me, see people like you, as part of the problem, fence sitters, bowing to Freemasons is repulsive under any guise

free_soul
25-08-2008, 12:02 AM
Frustration.

I still strongly believe in the teachings and principles of Freemasonry, but lately the level of hypocrisy I've been experiencing is just getting too much.

I've devoted hundreds (if not thousands) of hours to Freemasonry. I'm a Past Master in all bodies, have served as district deputy, director of work, etc. So as much time as I've dedicated to it, I feel like I have the right to criticize.

1. I live in the southern USA. While most Grand Lodges recognize Prince Hall Masonry (predominantly black membership) the GL's here do not. The hypocrisy stems from the fact that when a man is being initiated into every degree of Masonry, he is told that all men are created equal. Yet, there are so many Masons who don't care anything about what Masonry teaches here, they just don't want to "recognize blacks".

2. Masonry is supposed to be non-sectarian, and says so in the ritual. But conservative Christians are hijacking Freemasonry for their own ends. In some Lodges non-Christians will not be initiated even though this is a serious breach of Masonic law and tradition.

3. The Scottish Rite recently "revised" (and in several cases completely re-wrote) its initiation degree rituals. My primary purpose in joining the Masons was to learn more about mysticism. However, most of the concepts based around mysticism and the occult have now been completely removed, apparently in an attempt to be politically correct and not offend Masons who are conservative Christians. Thus, the whole point of even having the rituals seems to have been lost, or close to it.

4. Freemasonry is supposed to be non-political. In the southern USA, however, the fraternity is being used by unscrupulous members to push the Republican Party's agenda. As a Liberal, I find this offensive.

5. Grand Lodges are still not holding the Shrine accountable for the crimes involving the so-called "Royal Order of Jesters", an exclusive club for Shriners. Members of this organization have been linked to sex crimes while acting in the name of the organization, and everyone seems to just want to ignore it.

The only reason I haven't already left is because my own Lodge has some really good guys in it, and are close friends. They aren't racists, and they're critical of the same things I am. It gives me hope that if we stick together, we can have a hand in changing it for the better.

The problem here is that too many Masons use the Lodge as a way to pat each other on the back, talk about how good they are, and then go home, without a second thought as to what Freemasonry actually teaches. If Masons as a whole would practice what they preach, I wouldn't consider leaving it in a million years. But if things don't begin to change, there are other things I can devote my time to.

Love to see even the 'higher ranking' memers of the lower sects of the elite are questioning.

The colective consiesness is working :):)


I totaly agree with the fundementals of "Free" Masonary, however i totaly agree with the fundermentals of (cant remember the name of the govement but sadam huiseine ran it :P)

thelonious
25-08-2008, 02:06 PM
I wish you very well and hope that you don't leave us 'ickesters' :p alone in here. Even though some of our thoughts oppose each other you and some other masons effect on this site is very important and shouldn't be amiss. Good luck and good choice.

Thanks.

PS: I couldn't resist your signature. Screw Pike. I can't believe that a founder of the KKK could write even a letter about love. It's an utter paradox.

Pike was not a founder or ever a member of the KKK. In fact, he was one of the last "real Masons", so to speak. If you read his writings, you'll note that practically all of them are about love and benevolence.

Yes, I'm aware that when he was younger he exhibited racist attitudes. Most white men in the south at that time did. What is interesting is that he eventually came to change his mind on his subject, and I credit that to his Masonry. Unfortunately, not many Masons have learned that lesson from him.

banoyes
25-08-2008, 02:40 PM
Thanks.



Pike was not a founder or ever a member of the KKK. In fact, he was one of the last "real Masons", so to speak. If you read his writings, you'll note that practically all of them are about love and benevolence.

Yes, I'm aware that when he was younger he exhibited racist attitudes. Most white men in the south at that time did. What is interesting is that he eventually came to change his mind on his subject, and I credit that to his Masonry. Unfortunately, not many Masons have learned that lesson from him.

Every thing is a lie about Freemasons being the root of evil
Just ask them.
History is all wrong.
They will say anything,because they can dis-connect.
See Harry Truman,there's a Mason for ya

elirien
25-08-2008, 03:21 PM
Thanks.



Pike was not a founder or ever a member of the KKK. In fact, he was one of the last "real Masons", so to speak. If you read his writings, you'll note that practically all of them are about love and benevolence.

Yes, I'm aware that when he was younger he exhibited racist attitudes. Most white men in the south at that time did. What is interesting is that he eventually came to change his mind on his subject, and I credit that to his Masonry. Unfortunately, not many Masons have learned that lesson from him.

As owner-publisher of the Memphis, Tennessee, Daily Appeal, Albert Pike wrote in an editorial on April 16, 1868:"With negroes for witnesses and jurors, the administration of justice becomes a blasphemous mockery. A Loyal League of negroes can cause any white man to be arrested, and can prove any charges it chooses to have made against him. ...The disenfranchised people of the South ... can find no protection for property, liberty or life, except in secret association.... We would unite every white man in the South, who is opposed to negro suffrage, into one great Order of Southern Brotherhood, with an organization complete, active, vigorous, in which a few should execute the concentrated will of all, and whose very existence should be concealed from all but its members."

source: http://itwasjohnson.impiousdigest.com/fox.htm

Well since he is born in 1809 the date he wrote that editorial doesn't make him quite young. Three years later Morals and Dogma was published. I am not sure about his change.

Although I will read his publications to further analyze him without being ignorant. He kinda smells Ron Hubbardish tho with his speech about love and Lucifer.

thelonious
26-08-2008, 05:20 PM
Well since he is born in 1809 the date he wrote that editorial doesn't make him quite young. Three years later Morals and Dogma was published. I am not sure about his change.

It is evidenced most predominantly in his book "Letters To The Northern States" (although this book was explanation of his role in the Confederacy, and doesn't have much to do with Masonry).

Although I will read his publications to further analyze him without being ignorant.

M&D can be read online in its entirety.

He kinda smells Ron Hubbardish tho with his speech about love and Lucifer.

I don't think Pike can be compared to Hubbard. Pike, throughout all his works, only mentioned "Lucifer" a few times. The concept of Lucifer certainly wasn't an important part of Pike's thinking.

Regardless, Pike is clear on page 102 of Morals and Dogma that he didn't believe in the literal existence of an entity named "Lucifer", and that instead Lucifer was simply a symbol of the sex instinct. This is the standard occult interpretation of Lucifer - Satan.

elirien
26-08-2008, 06:17 PM
It is evidenced most predominantly in his book "Letters To The Northern States" (although this book was explanation of his role in the Confederacy, and doesn't have much to do with Masonry).

That he was not the KKK's judiciary officer?



M&D can be read online in its entirety.

Yup. I know. Although I have lately not the time.


I don't think Pike can be compared to Hubbard. Pike, throughout all his works, only mentioned "Lucifer" a few times. The concept of Lucifer certainly wasn't an important part of Pike's thinking.

Well my copy of M&D starts with this quote:

LUCIFER, the Light-bearer! Strange and mysterious name to give to the Spirit of Darknesss! Lucifer, the Son of the Morning! Is it he who bears the Light, and with its splendors intolerable blinds feeble, sensual or selfish Souls? Doubt it not!

At least writing lucifer in caps smells like deification. Those three s' in darkness is probably a typing error, but who knows? Perhaps it is symbolism. Also blinding sensual people doesn't ring quite nice.


Regardless, Pike is clear on page 102 of Morals and Dogma that he didn't believe in the literal existence of an entity named "Lucifer", and that instead Lucifer was simply a symbol of the sex instinct. This is the standard occult interpretation of Lucifer - Satan.

If it wouldn't be asking too much, could you quote that sentence since I looked around in my copy and also in www.sacred-texts.com and couldn't find that statement. By the way who made that standart?

thelonious
27-08-2008, 02:12 PM
I don't want to turn the subject into a defense of Pike. I am an admirer of Pike, but the guy was only human, and like all humans, he made mistakes. To answer your questions:

That he was not the KKK's judiciary officer?

No. Although this claim was made, it seems to have been a hoax. The KKK didn't have a "judiciary officer", and there are no KKK documents from that period that list Pike as a member, although all the other members and founders of the KKK are clearly identified.

In his book "Symbolism of the Blue Degrees", Pike wrote that the only Orders in which he held membership were the Masons and the Oddfellows.

The Ku Klux Klan only admitted Christians to membership (this is still the case). However, in Morals and Dogma, Pike wrote that he opposed Orders that were sectarian.


Well my copy of M&D starts with this quote:

M&D does not start with that quote. Instead, that quote is found on p. 321.



At least writing lucifer in caps smells like deification. Those three s' in darkness is probably a typing error, but who knows? Perhaps it is symbolism. Also blinding sensual people doesn't ring quite nice.

Pike is actually here quoting the French occult author Eliphas Levi. Levi used the "all caps", and Pike carried it over.

Pike was an occultist, and since he quotes Levi extensively throughout M&D, we can assume he agrees with him. In the occult, the word "Lucifer" denotes the psycho-sexual life force that the Hindus call "kundalini", and the Theosophists call "Fohat". In the human organism, this Force lies coiled at the base of the spine. Due to its spiral nature, it is sometimes called the "Serpent force". According to the occult interpretation of the Scriptures, every time the Bible talks about the Serpent or Satan, it is in reality referring to this Force in poetic allegory.

The ancient mysteries symbolized this Force by the god Pan, half-man and half-beast, representing the animal, carnal instinct. It is not an accident that in the middle ages, Christian artists began portraying Satan with hooves, horns, and a tail, just like Pan.

The basic occult doctrine is that this Force, in its purest expression, is the Force of Life and Love. It is Lucifer, the Light Bearer, the bringer of Enlightenment and Peace.

But in the world of matter, the Force is corrupted. This is the occult meaning of "the Fall", where Lucifer becomes Satan. The magical formula for enlightenment is denigrated into sexual lust, and is expressed in that manner in the human body.

The goal of the occultist is transform Satan back into Lucifer by purifying this Force. The Force is purified by raising it through spirtitual nerve centers that the Hindus call "chakras". The Force itself is electromagnetic in nature, and is responsible for sending electrical currents to the brain that then trigger the firing of neurotransmitters that allow us to be self-conscious. When the Force is purified, it opens the spiritual chakra, known by the Hindues as the Eye of Shiva, by the Egyptians as the Eye of Horus, and in Masonic symbolism as the All Seeing Eye. This eye is represented by devotees of Shiva by a red dot upon the forehead, and allows one to attain a universal, or expanded, consciousness.


If it wouldn't be asking too much, could you quote that sentence since I looked around in my copy and also in www.sacred-texts.com and couldn't find that statement. By the way who made that standart?

The quote is as follows. It also is a paraphrase from Levi. It is found on page 102:

The true name of Satan, the Kabalists say, is that of Yahveh reversed; for Satan is not a black god, but the negation of God. The Devil is the personification of Atheism or Idolatry.

For the Initiates, this is not a Person, but a Force, created for good, but which may serve for evil. It is the instrument of Liberty or Free Will. They represent this Force, which presides over the physical generation, under the mythologic and horned form of the God PAN; thence came the he-goat of the Sabbat, brother of the Ancient Serpent, and the Light-bearer or Phosphor, of which the poets have made the false Lucifer of the legend.

eternal_spirit
27-08-2008, 02:39 PM
Quote:
Originally Posted by eternal_spirit http://www.davidicke.com/forum/images/buttons_green/viewpost.gif (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?p=429943#post429943)
http://www.darksidecollective.org/images/scapegoat.gif
Church of Satan sigil of Baphomet or one like it but they do use the Baphomet sigil I think as their main symbol.

OTO links to Baphomet

LUCIFER
BAPHOMET
GOAT OF MENDES

http://img87.imageshack.us/img87/3918/goaththb8.jpg

http://img369.imageshack.us/img369/319/nwoglobeoq3.jpg

No one will enter the New World Order unless he or she
will make a pledge to worship Lucifer. No one will enter
the New Age unless he will take a Luciferian Initiation." (strange quote)

David Spangler, Director of Planetary Initiative, United Nations

http://img503.imageshack.us/img503/5197/nwofamilyportraitvh0.jpg

Clockwise from top, Bill Clinton, Prime Minister Silvio Berlusconi, John Edwards
Palestine leader Yasser Arafat, Tom Ridge, Laura Bush, Dan Quayle, Prince Phillip

Too Freemasons Great architect of the universe G.A.O.T.U. And here too we find an anagram for Goat.

http://altreligion.about.com/library/graphics/tarot4.jpg
The Devil, Tarot Card Number 15 In the Tarat it is the Major Arcana card #15 the Devil, who shows a goat headed deity with a man and women chained to him. The symbolism is that of people who strive for material rather than spiritual gain.

Note the rose on the flag of death maybe Rosiscrucian?

Baron Mayer Amschel de Rothschild-

“Give me control of a nation’s currency, and I care not who makes its laws”.

Thomas Jefferson-

"I believe that banking institutions are more dangerous than standing armies.

bloodlines (like the Rothschilds, Rockefellers, Merovingians, Astors, Windsors, the Bush family, etc.), which are very prone to demonic possession.

When a man reaches the highest degrees of Freemasonry it's believed rituals take place in order for possession by entities.

quote Crowley "I was not content to believe in a personal devil and

serve him, in the ordinary sense of the word.

I wanted to get hold of him personally

and become his chief of staff."(who controlled who)

http://img179.imageshack.us/img179/5770/baphometpentagram1kb3.jpg
the word LILITH on this Baphomet sigil

There are many depections of Lilth here's just one of them
http://ccat.sas.upenn.edu/%7Ehumm/Topics/Lilith/Images/giger03.jpg

More on the demon/succubus lilith here


http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=19472



And Lilith Aquino (formally Patricia Sinclair), is a famous Setian, and a former member of the Church of Satan
She founded the Lilith Grotto in New York City, the most numerically successful Grotto of the Church of Satan and appeared on numerous television and radio programs, even being interviewed by Time magazine.

During the 1975 division in the Church of Satan, Lilith (by this point a Priestess in the Church) departed from that organization and became a founding member of The Temple of Set along with her to future Michael Aquino, who is a paedophile and was Head of the psychological Warefare Department for the USA Millitary a high ranked position. This is about mind control, so it fits perfectly to what Satanic cults are all about.

3 pyramids at Giza?

Note the top of the pyramid
Order of the Eastern Star Freemasonry http://tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:GObcYqci__adUM:http://oesnaomi10.tripod.com/sitebuildercontent/sitebuilderpictures/sister_in_the_desert.jpg
http://www.stitchalogo.com/Order_of_the_Eastern_Star.JPG

eternal_spirit
27-08-2008, 02:49 PM
he classic prototype of such an egregore is Baphomet, the alleged
egregore of the Templars, who was worshipped in the form of a bust.

An `egregore' is a magical entity that is artificially created by
the focused thoughts and desires of a medium (analogous in many ways
to Tibetan tulpas and the Golems of kabbalisitc/Cabalistic Judaism) Supposedly a medium or statue could then serve
as a tenant for the egregore, nourished by the sexual life-powers of
the members.

The blood (or excrements) attract the
spirits/demons while the sperm keeps them alive.



Crowley played around with different sexmagickal methods. One of
the OTO's secrets is the adoration of the idol Baphomet of the old
Templars. While the splinter-group, the Fraternitas Saturni
definitely tried (and still tries) to incarnate Baphomet in flesh,
Quote:

Crowley's VIII. unveiled the "pupil" that masturbating on a sigil
of a demon or meditating upon the image of a phallus would bring
power or communication with a (or one's own) divine being/Super
Ego. The IX. labelled heterosexual intercourse where the sexual
secrets were sucked out of the vagina and when not consumed (when
considered holy) put on a sigil to attract this or that demon to
fullfill the pertinent wish/order. In his "Emblems and Mode of
Use" Crowley describes the method of how to smear sperm on a
talisman/sigil in order to attract for example money.

So, basically it's about giving your energy away to feed demons. ________________

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=459221&postcount=67

rite of Baphomet ^^^
ordo antichristianus Illuminati

A male child was offered every Friday evening at the temple of Shiva at Tanjor until the practice was stopped (officially) in the mid-nineteenth century. The Thugs, one of the ancient secret societies in the Brotherhood network, murdered their victims according to elaborate rituals dedicated to Kali, who is depicted wearing a garland of skulls.

http://www.muktinath.org/images/hinduismfolder/Kali01-282.jpg


Pike praised the Talmud and
Kabbalah
http://www.rondart.com/The%20Essential%20Talmud.jpg

Look carefully at the flowery pattern, if you don't see it look again.

Looks like it says Satan IMO.




http://img396.imageshack.us/img396/5024/003001c8df8bcb35d49053ajn8.jpg

Zi on ( on is the same as un phonetically speaking) Zionism is the NWO.

http://img440.imageshack.us/img440/5130/pyramidmasonxf7.gif

Lucifer is Satan is Yaweh.

from the Biggest Secret Chapter 15: David Icke

Quote:
The demon worshippers of Bel/Baal/Nimrod in Canaan, Babylon and Phoenicia engaged in human sacrifice, cannibalism, and child murder in the name of Moloch or Molech, an aspect of Nimrod/Baal, as part of their religious rituals.8 Baal (lord or ruler), the supreme god of the Canaanites and Phoenicians, was said to be the giver of life and Moloch was the destroyer of life. Both demanded appeasement by sacrifice. Baal or Moloch became identified with the Roman god Saturn.


In honor of Baal, the Sun god and god of fire, the Carthaginians, following the rituals of the Phoenicians and Canaanites, rolled children into a fiery pit made in the shape of the image of Baal/Moloch. At a site near modern Tunis six thousand urns were found containing the charred remains of infants. Remember, these rituals and ‘gods’ are the same as those performed and worshipped by the Satanists and the Brotherhood today.

“Children say the word Satan is used more frequently than any other, but other demons include Baphomet and Behemoth. Molech (Moloch) seems to be one particularly associated with eating babies, and one called Choronzon. These do seem to be particularly involved with sacrificing babies.”10

Choronzon relates to Chronos, the Greek version of Nimrod.

The Satanists among the ‘Jewish’ hierarchy today still perform the same rituals while the mass of the Jewish people worldwide have no idea that this is so. Stories throughout the centuries to the present day of the sacrifice of children by Jewish fanatics at the time of the Passover can be seen to have an historical basis when you realize the true meaning of the Passover.

The Rothschilds, formerly the infamous German occult family, the Bauers, apparently use the Canaanite Satanic rituals while some of the bloodline families with long connections to the Celtic lands, like the St Clair-Sinclairs, prefer the Druid system. It was the Satanic deity, Ashtoreth, which inspired the name, Astor, one of the bloodline families which has been heavily involved in Satanism.

eternal_spirit
27-08-2008, 02:53 PM
The Talmud

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10703
came out of Egypt, the Babylonian Talmud, with the Jews this was the beginning of Judaism.... if you know your Icke you should know about what he referred to as the Babylonian Brotherhood.

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showpost.php?p=463649&postcount=31

Freemasonry has long praised the Cabala, and its top officials have admitted that the Lodge’s rituals and teachings are but the offspring of the Jewish tradition. Albert Pike, former Sovereign Grand Commander of the Scottish Rite, wrote: "One is filled with admiration, on penetrating into the Sanctuary of the Cabala."
In 1855, the renowned Rabbi Isaac Wise wrote: "Freemasonry is a Jewish establishment, whose history, grades, official appointments, passwords, and explanations are Jewish from beginning to end."
The Jewish Tribune newspaper, in 1927, in an editorial, stated: "Freemasonry is based on Judaism. Eliminate the teachings of Judaism from the Masonic ritual and what is left?"
http://www.conspiracyworld.com/web/Articles/Article%20Images/cabalistic_star_of_david_richardsons.jpg In Richardson’s Monitor of Freemasonry (p. 64), this symbol is used to illustrate the Royal Arch Degree. Masonic literature is replete with examples of the Jewish Star of David and other Cabalistic tokens, symbols, emblems, and signs.
Ray Novosel, writing from Australia in 2004, states: "Zionist world leaders, men in influential positions with the various Masonic organizations everywhere, have worked ‘hand in glove’ for a universal world revolution, which will bring in the One World Church and a One World Government. Many Masonic Lodges are exclusively Jewish, as are the controlling B’nai B’rith Lodges—the mother of the infamous and very dangerous Anti-Defamation League (ADL)."
Albert Pike maintained that, "Every Masonic Lodge is a temple of religion; and its teachings are instruction in religion." Pike also asserted that the true meanings of the mysterious and arcane symbols of Freemasonry are found in the occult philosophy of the Jewish Cabala, that Freemasonry owes all its secrets to the Cabala, and that Freemasonry is a religion based on the Cabala.

The Old Testament was written around 200-300 BC by 72 priests in Egypt who wrote it in Greek (not Hebrew) for the Jews who spoke Aramaic

If the Greeks had Gods such as Pan Lucifer Baphomet-Paganism

sinogogue of Satan

our High Priest,
Rev. Michael S. Margolin
The Mad Poet Acbhb
Frater Inferior
Baphomet Rex 666

http://www.sosatan.org/rex.jpg (http://www.sosatan.org/rex.jpg)

“The true name of Satan, the Kabalists say, is that of Yahveh reversed; for Satan is not a black God, but the negation of God. The Devil is the personification of Atheism or Idolatry. For the Initiates, this is not a person, but a force, created for good, but which may serve for evil. It is the instrument of Liberty or free will. They represent this Force, which presides over the physical generation, under the mythologic and horned form of the God Pan; thence the he-goat of the Sabbat, brother of the Ancient Serpent, and the light bearer or Phosphor, of which the poets have made the false Lucifer of the legend.”
- Albert Pike “Morals and Dogma“ Ancient and Accepted Rite of Free Masonry written and published in 1875.

Satan being Lucifer on Earth, with his dominion of Fallen Angels who became the Demons of Demonology of the Kabbalah.



Andrew Carrington Hitchcock

This is not about satanic rituals like the title may seem to suggest, but about Zionsim and the people who rule over the World

The Synagogue of Satan 740-1818.
Read it here (http://www.iamthewitness.com/books/index.php?dir=Andrew.Carrington.Hitchcock%2FSynago gue.of.Satan) or listen to the interviews with Andy here (http://www.iamthewitness.com/audio/Andrew.Carrington.Hitchcock/index.php).
Andrew Carrington Hitchcock

Andy Hitchcock is the author of The Synagogue of Satan (http://www.iamthewitness.com/books/Andrew.Carrington.Hitchcock/Synagogue.of.Satan/index.htm). This book is a follow up on his timeline of the Rothschild family (http://www.iamthewitness.com/DarylBradfordSmith_Rothschild.htm).

eternal_spirit
27-08-2008, 03:02 PM
A genuine question-Thelonius I know you've described esoteric allegory etc, but why do high ranked Masons such as Crowley and others believe they can summons up demons-one example is Baphomet some try to incarnate it in the flesh, or as a golem. Plus Kabbalistic demonoly invocation etc.....Also channeled communications with entities/spirits (it's more than communicating with what they call the higher self) seems they truly believe in these external entities.

eternal_spirit
27-08-2008, 03:13 PM
Magick is usually defined itual acts performed with the intent to cause change or transform the practitioner or the environment. The loosest definition of magick is an act of intent or will expected to result in a specific outcome.
The spelling of magick with a 'k' was first used intentionally by Eliphas Levi to differentiate theurgic magick (http://altreligion.about.com/library/glossary/bldeftheurgy.htm) from stage magic. Crowley again revived this Elizabethan-era spelling in his own work.
Alternate Spellings: Majik, Magic


http://z.about.com/d/altreligion/1/0/Z/y/2/glossarymagick.jpg (http://altreligion.about.com/library/graphics/bl_manlyhallmagician)
Magician summoning a Goetia Spirit


Hermetic Tradition (http://altreligion.about.com/cs/hermetictradition1/index.htm)
Named after Hermes Trismigestus (Hermes the three times great), the Greek moniker of the Egyptian God Tehuti (Thoth), alleged author of hundreds of mystical tractates, the Hermetic tradition is an eclectic spiritual tradition that encompasses elements from from many religions.

Grimoire- the magician's handbook (http://altreligion.about.com/library/weekly/aa010403a.htm)
Often containing complex instructions for conjuring demons and spirits, the Grimoires of European magicians were more than just collections of spells and conjurations.

The Magician's Handbook A Grimoire, strictly speaking, is a collection of magickal formulas or symbols, with instructions for their use to achieve certain ends. The word "Grimoire" is actually an archaic spelling of the word "grammar," a word which once referred to things magical.
Often containing complex instructions for conjuring demons and spirits, European Grimoires were astonishingly common between the twelfth and eighteenth centuries. What is even more surprising is the atmosphere of Christian piety that often permeates these texts. A far cry from the black magick and pacts with Satan one might expect, they are filled with biblical references and regimens of prayer and Angelic supplications. Ritual Magicians of the Middle ages and Renaissance periods tended to be heavily religious, and although they found inspiration in Pagan and Islamic texts, they often relied on Christian magical traditions going back as far as the first century. Some especially religiously oriented magicians even found a biblical imperative in the words of Jesus- " And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name, that will I do "

thelonious
27-08-2008, 03:38 PM
A genuine question-Thelonius I know you've described esoteric allegory etc, but why do high ranked Masons such as Crowley and others believe they can summons up demons-one example is Baphomet some try to incarnate it in the flesh, or as a golem. Plus Kabbalistic demonoly invocation etc.....Also channeled communications with entities/spirits (it's more than communicating with what they call the higher self) seems they truly believe in these external entities.

In his introduction to "The Goetia", Crowley acknowledges that the demons are "portions of the human brain". The ceremonial evocation of spirits is in reality a sort of psychoanalysis. Jung himself wrote on the topic.

What happens is that the magician will examine himself and locate a part of his psyche that he wants to purify. He then objectifies this part of himself in the form of a demon.

For example, let's say that a magician wants to overcome a fear of pit bulls. He objectifies his fear as a demon, performs the ceremonial evocation (conjuring), then banishes it. Theoretically, if performed properly, the banishing will cure him of his phobia in much the same manner that psychoanalysis does.

Another reason would be to learn something. A basic occult theory is that deep down we are all sparks of the divine, and therefore possess all knowledge within us. But since our self-consciousness is often blinded to that by its constant interaction with matter, we must pull those things out of the depths of our psyches. It is convenient for some to do it in the form of evocation.

Since you mention Crowley, I'll say that he experiemented with this method a few times, with mixed results. His autobiography, published under the title of "The Confessions of Aleister Crowley" gives an account of he and George Cecil Jones attempting a Goetic evocation of Buer, a Goetic demon said to cure illnesses. The purpose was to relieve their friend Allen Bennett of a severe asthma bout.

According to Crowley, the evocation was not a total success ceremonially, but they got the desired result. Bennett was soon thereafter allowed to move to Burma where he became a Buddhist monk; the climate there helped dispense with his asthma condition.

elirien
27-08-2008, 03:51 PM
I don't want to turn the subject into a defense of Pike. I am an admirer of Pike, but the guy was only human, and like all humans, he made mistakes.

I understand. Although I just wanted to point out that he also can lie in his intentions in his writings. I am just stating this as an option for you. I'm not trying to persuade you to anything.

No. Although this claim was made, it seems to have been a hoax. The KKK didn't have a "judiciary officer", and there are no KKK documents from that period that list Pike as a member, although all the other members and founders of the KKK are clearly identified.

http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/albertpikeandkkk.html

This site states other wise with reference to documents which I couldn't check out. I think you have that option open if you live in the states or anyone of us could send a mail to the webmaster if you are up to it.

According to the occult interpretation of the Scriptures, every time the Bible talks about the Serpent or Satan, it is in reality referring to this Force in poetic allegory.

The ancient mysteries symbolized this Force by the god Pan, half-man and half-beast, representing the animal, carnal instinct.

I think these are not very good references to someone who wants to develop himself beyond those attributes. Aren't those concepts a little bit unevolved?

The basic occult doctrine is that this Force, in its purest expression, is the Force of Life and Love. It is Lucifer, the Light Bearer, the bringer of Enlightenment and Peace.

I think after the above references Lucifer does represent an animalistic, unquestioning sheep like representation of humans, blinded by a false light of so called enlightenment and a false peace created through mind-control. But hey that's just me.

But in the world of matter, the Force is corrupted. This is the occult meaning of "the Fall", where Lucifer becomes Satan. The magical formula for enlightenment is denigrated into sexual lust, and is expressed in that manner in the human body.

So are you stating that the above mentioned quote about Lucifer being a representation enlightenment just works for the astral world and that after "the fall" to the material world he and the enlightenment that he represents boiled down to animalistic lusting? I can't quite imagining someone being enlightened by hunting down women (or whatever) to have sex with. That is more in the league of an intoxicating night in Amsterdam then enlightened behavior. Don't get me wrong I'm just trying to integrate your statements (or objective info) into material-3D-Earth life.

The goal of the occultist is transform Satan back into Lucifer by purifying this Force. The Force is purified by raising it through spirtitual nerve centers that the Hindus call "chakras". The Force itself is electromagnetic in nature, and is responsible for sending electrical currents to the brain that then trigger the firing of neurotransmitters that allow us to be self-conscious. When the Force is purified, it opens the spiritual chakra, known by the Hindues as the Eye of Shiva, by the Egyptians as the Eye of Horus, and in Masonic symbolism as the All Seeing Eye. This eye is represented by devotees of Shiva by a red dot upon the forehead, and allows one to attain a universal, or expanded, consciousness.

So are you stating (or referencing to) that the satanic force is first a libidal force that is purified through meditation and self development and becomes the 3rd eye through the so called "kundalini effect"? How do you connect that to your above reference to animal instinct and do you believe that lucifer is a developed version (perhaps in the 4th density for example) of that libidal/animal instinct?

I thank you very much for the last quote you gave from the book, but this made me even more questioning. Why are luciferians the tools for destruction all around the world then? Why are they trying to integrate a new world order?

I hope you don't take these questions as representations of my ego. They are honest and objective questions just based on my research. Thank you very much for your posts so far.

and thank you eternal spirit for your additions to the subject. This information should be integrated into this debate.

eternal_spirit
27-08-2008, 04:06 PM
In his introduction to "The Goetia", Crowley acknowledges that the demons are "portions of the human brain". The ceremonial evocation of spirits is in reality a sort of psychoanalysis. Jung himself wrote on the topic.

What happens is that the magician will examine himself and locate a part of his psyche that he wants to purify. He then objectifies this part of himself in the form of a demon.

For example, let's say that a magician wants to overcome a fear of pit bulls. He objectifies his fear as a demon, performs the ceremonial evocation (conjuring), then banishes it. Theoretically, if performed properly, the banishing will cure him of his phobia in much the same manner that psychoanalysis does.

Another reason would be to learn something. A basic occult theory is that deep down we are all sparks of the divine, and therefore possess all knowledge within us. But since our self-consciousness is often blinded to that by its constant interaction with matter, we must pull those things out of the depths of our psyches. It is convenient for some to do it in the form of evocation.

Since you mention Crowley, I'll say that he experiemented with this method a few times, with mixed results. His autobiography, published under the title of "The Confessions of Aleister Crowley" gives an account of he and George Cecil Jones attempting a Goetic evocation of Buer, a Goetic demon said to cure illnesses. The purpose was to relieve their friend Allen Bennett of a severe asthma bout.

According to Crowley, the evocation was not a total success ceremonially, but they got the desired result. Bennett was soon thereafter allowed to move to Burma where he became a Buddhist monk; the climate there helped dispense with his asthma condition.


This much I'm aware of.

Why the ritualistic murder and sacrafices in honour of satan etc some say the demons feed off human misery/souls/lifeforce.... or even blood, then there's demonic possession where a demon possessed person will kill cannibalise/Vampirism etc. And summoning demons to attack people.

thelonious
27-08-2008, 06:00 PM
I understand. Although I just wanted to point out that he also can lie in his intentions in his writings. I am just stating this as an option for you. I'm not trying to persuade you to anything.

Yes, but so can anyone. His writings are voluminous, however, and at least at the present, I have no reason to doubt that he meant what what he said.



http://www.freemasonrywatch.org/albertpikeandkkk.html

This site states other wise with reference to documents which I couldn't check out. I think you have that option open if you live in the states or anyone of us could send a mail to the webmaster if you are up to it.

The Freemasonry Watch website is operated by an individual who used to post on the alt.freemasonry Usenet forum under the name "St. John the Sublime" before creating Freemasonry Watch. The story is rather long and drawn-out, but in brief, he was caught there red-handed lying about Pike and the KKK. He referenced a New York Times article that was later proved non-existent. It was then that he left alt.freemasonry and created Freemasonry Watch.

While some of the stuff on Freemasonry Watch is true, a lot of it is silly propaganda. The individual that runs the site is certainly not unbiased, and is a Roman Catholic. It is possible that he is a Jesuit.


I think these are not very good references to someone who wants to develop himself beyond those attributes. Aren't those concepts a little bit unevolved?

The state of the person represented by Pan is unevolved, but the concept I think is rather profound. It simply represents man in his natural state, basically animalistic. The first stage in Alchemy is to begin to transform that nature in man. So it's the starting point of occultism: we first recognize what sort of being we are, then we begin changing it to what we want it to be.


I think after the above references Lucifer does represent an animalistic, unquestioning sheep like representation of humans, blinded by a false light of so called enlightenment and a false peace created through mind-control. But hey that's just me.

I do want to stress, however, that it is Satan (not Lucifer) that represents the blind force of materialism. The purpose of Alchemy is to transform Satan back into Lucifer, darkness to light.


So are you stating that the above mentioned quote about Lucifer being a representation enlightenment just works for the astral world and that after "the fall" to the material world he and the enlightenment that he represents boiled down to animalistic lusting? I can't quite imagining someone being enlightened by hunting down women (or whatever) to have sex with.

You would be correct. The goalk of the Adept is to purify the life force within him. It expressly itself in nature through the sex instinct. This expression, however, is not the "enlightened" expression, it's the normal "profane" one.

The Pythagorean cult used similar symbolism in the form of Pentagrams. The inverted Pentagram, with one point downward, again represents Pan, man in his natural state before enlightenment. Each point of the Pentagram represents one of the four elements, with the fifth point representing the Quintessence, Spirit, which is the origin of the four material elements.

Therefore the inverted Pentagram represents spirit dominated by matter, i.e., Satan. When the Pentagram is reversed, with one point upward, we find Spirit in its proper place, dominant over matter, with matter flowing from its spiritual source.

The goal in practical occultism is thus to transmute the force naturally expressed in sex to instead be expressed in spiritual awakening.



So are you stating (or referencing to) that the satanic force is first a libidal force that is purified through meditation and self development and becomes the 3rd eye through the so called "kundalini effect"?

Yes. Even Freud identified Satan with the libido.

How do you connect that to your above reference to animal instinct and do you believe that lucifer is a developed version (perhaps in the 4th density for example) of that libidal/animal instinct?

When I say "animal instinct" I refer to the natural instincts, most notably the instinct to eat and reproduce. Both of those are necessary, but the satanic force has profaned them into lust and gluttony. The energy exhausted in the act of lust and digestion of foods consumed in gluttonous eating can be better used for spiritual practice.

I wouldn't say that Lucifer is a developed version. Rather I would say that Lucifer is in itself the life force, the Christos of the Gnostics. In the allegorical story of Eden, we see how it was misused and became corrupted into Satan.


I thank you very much for the last quote you gave from the book, but this made me even more questioning. Why are luciferians the tools for destruction all around the world then? Why are they trying to integrate a new world order?

It depends on what you mean by "Luciferians". A dictionary check says that a Luciferian is a follower of St. Lucifer of Cagliari, a theologian from the middle ages. I'm sure that's not what you're talking about, but I've never heard anybody refer to themselves as a "Luciferian". Those who hold to the teachings that I've been talking about generally call themselves "occultists", "Gnostics", or "Hermeticists", and have no interest in destroying the world.

Indeed, occultists understand the basic truth that we are all sparks of the Divine and are interlinked; therefore, to do harm to another is to do harm to oneself.

I hope you don't take these questions as representations of my ego. They are honest and objective questions just based on my research. Thank you very much for your posts so far.

You're welcome, and thank you for the interesting questions.

eternal_spirit
27-08-2008, 11:07 PM
http://judicial-inc.biz/Jews_and_KKK.htm
more info on kkk

http://judicial-inc.biz/o_lder_archive.htm

http://judicial-inc.biz/or_lando_nazi.htm

elirien
28-08-2008, 10:42 AM
Yes, but so can anyone. His writings are voluminous, however, and at least at the present, I have no reason to doubt that he meant what what he said.


Well there we differ. I consider anyone and anything untrust worthy for the simple reason that the universe is not solid. Everything transforms and changes constantly and so do and can people.

The Freemasonry Watch website is operated by an individual who used to post on the alt.freemasonry Usenet forum under the name "St. John the Sublime" before creating Freemasonry Watch. The story is rather long and drawn-out, but in brief, he was caught there red-handed lying about Pike and the KKK. He referenced a New York Times article that was later proved non-existent. It was then that he left alt.freemasonry and created Freemasonry Watch.

While some of the stuff on Freemasonry Watch is true, a lot of it is silly propaganda. The individual that runs the site is certainly not unbiased, and is a Roman Catholic. It is possible that he is a Jesuit.

That could be true but we still could check out the info there. Even if its smeared with utter bs there could be some truth in it. I think I will email this individual later in the day to confirm his info.


Regarding your other posts concerning my questions I first thank you for your insight in the matter. It made me think about Islam's and Sufist interpretation. In Islam 'Sheitan' is not an enemy of god. It is an entity that has the mission to test the individual in his progress towards being a human. It is all that is material lust (as you have stated it about Satan). It is some what close to 'Ogoun' (Ogoun - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia). I have to research this matter even deeper. It is very fascinating especially its aspect why it attracts 'followers' so to speak. Even Bill Cooper was not sure about if Satan is the same with Lucifer. It looks like a babylonic christianity interpretation of the concepts you spoke about. Very deep.

As far as I could have read in your posts in scientific terms it is the reptilian brains function combined with some of left and right brain activity (survival is definitely reptilian but I'm not sure about the reproducing instinct).

This also boils down to all religious aspects being just representations of the many sides of an individual and when you put possesion into this game it evolves to a very very interesting subject. I think Possession is proved many times (at least I watched some videos of exorcism in two religions). Crowley's interpretation that eternal spirit posted is also a very important and an interesting aspect that shouldn't be put aside. There comes the external into the game which kinda debunks the whole thing being an introverted adventure.

We've got lots of work to do boys :) Especially in my left brain job. I'll be back later this evening if I can finish my other things. Thanks to you both.

eternal_spirit
03-09-2008, 02:24 PM
Elirien you're welcome.

Does the spider that spins the web know why. Do the stars in heaven hear the earthlings cry. As above so below what mystery do these words bestow. Or is it another lie to keep the people wondering why. By those in power who invented the hour money is their true source of power.

Bloom like a flower in the sun the moon the tide ebb and flow water of life we all do grow, with questions and answers the more we'll know.

the seed is planted

time to go

:)

barney_rubble
03-09-2008, 02:50 PM
Elirien you're welcome.

Does the spider that spins the web know why. Do the stars in heaven hear the earthlings cry. As above so below what mystery do these words bestow. Or is it another lie to keep the people wondering why. By those in power who invented the hour money is their true source of power.

Bloom like a flower in the sun the moon the tide ebb and flow water of life we all do grow, with questions and answers the more we'll know.

the seed is planted

time to go

:)

I know this is totally off topic of this thread but it has gone off topic a while back (sorry thelonious)

But ES you do not realize how Masonic your last post sounded.

That is all I am going to say about that I do not want to get into a fight about it.

elirien
03-09-2008, 02:53 PM
Elirien you're welcome.

Does the spider that spins the web know why. Do the stars in heaven hear the earthlings cry. As above so below what mystery do these words bestow. Or is it another lie to keep the people wondering why. By those in power who invented the hour money is their true source of power.

Bloom like a flower in the sun the moon the tide ebb and flow water of life we all do grow, with questions and answers the more we'll know.

the seed is planted

time to go

:)

You are evil :) Just joking.

By the way i emailed that guy in freemasonry watch and he didn't mail me back. That's why i didn't write anything until now. I'll keep waiting for documentation.

soulja
03-09-2008, 03:06 PM
the guy who runs freemasonry watch used to post on the old 'forum' under the name of Bassclef. he made great contributions and seemed a level headed fella. i really doubt he's a Jesuit.

eternal_spirit
04-09-2008, 12:04 AM
I know this is totally off topic of this thread but it has gone off topic a while back (sorry thelonious)

But ES you do not realize how Masonic your last post sounded.

That is all I am going to say about that I do not want to get into a fight about it.


Agreed lol. Took me 10 mins to think that one up not the best of rhymes. Guess it was a bit tongue in cheek, maybe there's some meaning allegory in some of the lines, but it may become confusing trying to figure out what it could mean.

lordzoma
04-09-2008, 01:12 AM
Elirien you're welcome.

Does the spider that spins the web know why. Do the stars in heaven hear the earthlings cry.

EarthERS

Not Earthlings.

eternal_spirit
04-09-2008, 01:32 AM
EarthERS

Not Earthlings.

No such word I was correct with earthlings.

thetonic
04-09-2008, 04:00 AM
No such word I was correct with earthlings.

thats if you believe we are on 'earth'

quetzalcoatl
05-09-2008, 02:50 AM
thats if you believe we are on 'earth'

:rolleyes:

Right.. We’re really a moderately evolved form of nano-virus on a ‘giant’ electron orbiting around an atom @ 66,300 mph.

eternal_spirit
05-09-2008, 03:13 AM
EarthERS

Not Earthlings.

Flat earther :confused:

elcorazon
09-09-2008, 02:52 PM
I’ve been researching Freemasonry for a few years and have discovered that it is not a simple straight forward subject with quick and easy answers. The 1.5 million Masons in America may not be Masons at all but part of an international banking scheme that began in 1783.

I’ve been able to uncover many facts that have been obscured by the Grand Lodges and the Scottish Rite. There were two groups of Masons that operated in Engalnd. They were known as the Moderns and the Antients. The American Founding Fathers were from the Modern group. The present Masons are from the Antients.

Benjamin Franklin refused to join the Antient Masons but they lie about his membership today and try to make you believe that he was one of them. The same is true of George Washington.

The Moderns have been all but dead until several years ago when they seized control of the Grand Orient of France and restored the Modern Rite. This year they created the Grand Orient of the United States which is also a group of Moderns.

From what I understand the Antients are fascists while the Moderns promote liberty, fraternity and equality. I am becoming more and more convinced that the revival of the Moderns is a very good thing, and that they are the true Freemasons. I’ve also noticed that they seem to support the efforts of Ron Paul and other freedom loving Americans.

thetonic
09-09-2008, 04:20 PM
I’ve been researching Freemasonry for a few years and have discovered that it is not a simple straight forward subject with quick and easy answers. The 1.5 million Masons in America may not be Masons at all but part of an international banking scheme that began in 1783.

I’ve been able to uncover many facts that have been obscured by the Grand Lodges and the Scottish Rite. There were two groups of Masons that operated in Engalnd. They were known as the Moderns and the Antients. The American Founding Fathers were from the Modern group. The present Masons are from the Antients.

Benjamin Franklin refused to join the Antient Masons but they lie about his membership today and try to make you believe that he was one of them. The same is true of George Washington.

The Moderns have been all but dead until several years ago when they seized control of the Grand Orient of France and restored the Modern Rite. This year they created the Grand Orient of the United States which is also a group of Moderns.

From what I understand the Antients are fascists while the Moderns promote liberty, fraternity and equality. I am becoming more and more convinced that the revival of the Moderns is a very good thing, and that they are the true Freemasons. I’ve also noticed that they seem to support the efforts of Ron Paul and other freedom loving Americans.

Interesting.. I havent met a single mason on this forum that is a Ron Paul fan.. I guess I know why now

thetonic
09-09-2008, 04:21 PM
:rolleyes:

Right.. We’re really a moderately evolved form of nano-virus on a ‘giant’ electron orbiting around an atom @ 66,300 mph.

Actually thats the most sense youve made in a post since you joined this forum...

elirien
09-09-2008, 06:59 PM
I’ve been researching Freemasonry for a few years and have discovered that it is not a simple straight forward subject with quick and easy answers. The 1.5 million Masons in America may not be Masons at all but part of an international banking scheme that began in 1783.

I’ve been able to uncover many facts that have been obscured by the Grand Lodges and the Scottish Rite. There were two groups of Masons that operated in Engalnd. They were known as the Moderns and the Antients. The American Founding Fathers were from the Modern group. The present Masons are from the Antients.

Benjamin Franklin refused to join the Antient Masons but they lie about his membership today and try to make you believe that he was one of them. The same is true of George Washington.

The Moderns have been all but dead until several years ago when they seized control of the Grand Orient of France and restored the Modern Rite. This year they created the Grand Orient of the United States which is also a group of Moderns.

From what I understand the Antients are fascists while the Moderns promote liberty, fraternity and equality. I am becoming more and more convinced that the revival of the Moderns is a very good thing, and that they are the true Freemasons. I’ve also noticed that they seem to support the efforts of Ron Paul and other freedom loving Americans.

I am not sure about the difference of Antient and Modern rites but I had found this book last week (had no time to read it). Perhaps it is of some interest:

http://www.scribd.com/doc/236546/Scarlet-and-the-Beast

tinmenace
09-09-2008, 07:41 PM
I’ve been researching Freemasonry for a few years and have discovered that it is not a simple straight forward subject with quick and easy answers. The 1.5 million Masons in America may not be Masons at all but part of an international banking scheme that began in 1783.

I’ve been able to uncover many facts that have been obscured by the Grand Lodges and the Scottish Rite. There were two groups of Masons that operated in Engalnd. They were known as the Moderns and the Antients. The American Founding Fathers were from the Modern group. The present Masons are from the Antients.

Benjamin Franklin refused to join the Antient Masons but they lie about his membership today and try to make you believe that he was one of them. The same is true of George Washington.

The Moderns have been all but dead until several years ago when they seized control of the Grand Orient of France and restored the Modern Rite. This year they created the Grand Orient of the United States which is also a group of Moderns.

From what I understand the Antients are fascists while the Moderns promote liberty, fraternity and equality. I am becoming more and more convinced that the revival of the Moderns is a very good thing, and that they are the true Freemasons. I’ve also noticed that they seem to support the efforts of Ron Paul and other freedom loving Americans.


Interesting post, but I have to disagree with you on two points;


Moderns promote liberty, fraternity and equality.

Fraternity and equality in the same sentence is a contradiction in terms. Anything that specifically, as a rule, excludes women or cripples is not promoting equality.

...they are the true Freemasons. I’ve also noticed that they seem to support the efforts of Ron Paul and other freedom loving Americans.

Ron Paul is a big let down because he denies that 9/11 could ever have been anything other than what the official line says it is. He is not freedom loving, I'm afraid. He's part of their game.

Just my two cents.

ilponn
09-09-2008, 10:08 PM
lol what a joke mother earth is are master not no false god or profit

tothestars
09-09-2008, 10:47 PM
Wise choice to leave freemasonry. I think you also followed your intuition.

Spiritual enlightment/evolvment comes from within not by reading books about mysticsm (altho it can give some good ideas, also bad ones).

Remove barriers/programs within by silencing your mind, observe yourself, be neutral and worship love within. Meditation is one key, unconditional love is another (see and feel everything as Oneness).


Anyway I have got a new confirmation about nasty shit in the freemasonry here where i live.
A good friend of mine has his grandpa and a uncle in the norwegian freemasonry. They are absolutely on top in the freemasonry and they have been bragged to him about how they control the masses in the lodge, they also control the norwegian politicians, the cort, the police, you name it, by money, threats, loyaltycodecs and even murder.
Yes they even said they sometimes have to kill people that stand in their to get their. Quite scary.
It is a bit amusing that one of their family member (my "source") is one of the nicest and friendliest persons i have met he he.




Anyway I wish you good luck and take care.

And please dont leave this forum. Lots of nice ppl in here altho some can be a little crazy. But they are mostly harmless (as Adams would have said :D ).


With Love

:)

thelonious
10-09-2008, 05:17 PM
I’ve been researching Freemasonry for a few years and have discovered that it is not a simple straight forward subject with quick and easy answers. The 1.5 million Masons in America may not be Masons at all but part of an international banking scheme that began in 1783.

I'm not sure what you mean by a banking scheme. Could you elaborate?

I’ve been able to uncover many facts that have been obscured by the Grand Lodges and the Scottish Rite. There were two groups of Masons that operated in Engalnd. They were known as the Moderns and the Antients. The American Founding Fathers were from the Modern group. The present Masons are from the Antients.

Actually, the forefathers were both. Washington, for example, was an Antient, while Franklin was a Modern.

Benjamin Franklin refused to join the Antient Masons but they lie about his membership today and try to make you believe that he was one of them. The same is true of George Washington.

George Washington belonged to an Antient Lodge, Franklin to a Modern one.

There is no longer any difference between the two groups, as they merged in the ealy 1800's. The only difference between them before that was the Antient Lodges practiced the Royal Arch degree, whereas the Moderns only recognized the three Blue Lodge degrees.

After they merged, it was agreed to move the Royal ASrch degree outside of the regular Lodge work, and to form "Royal Arch Chapters". This was the birth of what is now known as the York Rite.

The Moderns have been all but dead until several years ago when they seized control of the Grand Orient of France and restored the Modern Rite. This year they created the Grand Orient of the United States which is also a group of Moderns.

As mentioned, the Moderns and Antients merged, and all regular Grand Lodges today are the heritage of both groups. The Grand Orient of France never had anything to do with the Moderns, who were strictly English. The Grand Orient of the USA also practices a Rite very different from the Moderns and the Antients.

From what I understand the Antients are fascists while the Moderns promote liberty, fraternity and equality.

Originally, the Antients were more working class folks, while the Moderns were more wealthy and aristocratic. Again, they merged long before fascism was ever dreamed up, and a fascist Mason is an oxymoron, at least in theory.

I am becoming more and more convinced that the revival of the Moderns is a very good thing, and that they are the true Freemasons. I’ve also noticed that they seem to support the efforts of Ron Paul and other freedom loving Americans.

No Masonic Rite can endorse a certain candidate or political party without losing its Masonic identity in the process. I support Obama because I'm a Liberal; it has nothing to do with Masonic membership.

Likewise, there are other Masons who support McCain, as well as those who supported Paul and others.

thetonic
10-09-2008, 05:50 PM
Originally, the Antients were more working class folks, while the Moderns were more wealthy and aristocratic. Again, they merged long before fascism was ever dreamed up, and a fascist Mason is an oxymoron, at least in theory.



.

What are you fucking joking?... A rose by any other name my friend

edelweiss pirate
10-09-2008, 06:27 PM
Lmao .. whats up? you realised that masonic light at the end of the tunnel is really Satan with a fuck off flame thrower...????

Bingo!

thetonic
10-09-2008, 07:01 PM
Originally Posted by 91181 View Post
Lmao .. whats up? you realised that masonic light at the end of the tunnel is really Satan with a fuck off flame thrower...????

holy shit I cant believe i missed that !


LOLLOLLLOLLLOLLL


http://loltheist.com/wp-content/uploads/2007/09/kthxbye.jpg

thelonious
11-09-2008, 01:26 PM
What are you fucking joking?... A rose by any other name my friend

In theory, a Freemason is a supporter of democratic government, and cannot support fascism. The founders of Freemasonry ingrained democracy into all aspects of Masonry, as well as other liberal principles such as equality, freedom of religion, freedom of speech, etc. This also helps explain why early Freemasons were also very numerous among freedom fighters in many different countries to insure individual liberties for the people.

Many, such as Washington, Franklin, Garibaldi, Bolivar, and many others, first became exposed to democratic thinking in Masonic Lodges. It also explains why Fascists had universally banned Freemasons and persecuted Masons.

On the other hand, I go back to the same criticism I've had throughout this thread. Too many times I've seen Masons swear to uphold certain ideals and to behave with honor, then turn right around and ignore every word of it as soon as they walk out of the Lodge room.

bendoon
11-09-2008, 01:41 PM
In theory, a Freemason is a supporter of democratic government, .

As a stepping stone, to a New Order Of The ages.

You can't have a New World Order without first destroying the old one, democracy was only ever designed to be an inevitable stepping stone to a One World totalitarian regime.

So your statement.

In theory, a Freemason is a supporter of democratic government

Is actually doublespeak, even if you yourself do not realise it. Because yes they do support democracy, but only as a temporary state.

soulja
11-09-2008, 03:33 PM
how can something wich in itself is not democratic at all be a supporter of democratic government ?

freemasonry is run like a dictatorship plus on a need to know basis like intelligence agencies.

elirien
11-09-2008, 03:51 PM
In theory, a Freemason is a supporter of democratic government, and cannot support fascism. The founders of Freemasonry ingrained democracy into all aspects of Masonry, as well as other liberal principles such as equality, freedom of religion, freedom of speech, etc. This also helps explain why early Freemasons were also very numerous among freedom fighters in many different countries to insure individual liberties for the people.

Many, such as Washington, Franklin, Garibaldi, Bolivar, and many others, first became exposed to democratic thinking in Masonic Lodges. It also explains why Fascists had universally banned Freemasons and persecuted Masons.

On the other hand, I go back to the same criticism I've had throughout this thread. Too many times I've seen Masons swear to uphold certain ideals and to behave with honor, then turn right around and ignore every word of it as soon as they walk out of the Lodge room.

Well Theolonious that hypocrisy is not unique to masons. Anyone declaring that representative democracy is against totalitarian/fascist organizational structures is a hypocrite imho since representative democracy is the tool for the centralization of power with people you don't even have met once in your life. It is choosing changing king figures for periods of time. The republic could work with city states where there is no immunity from prosecution and you could hit a "public servant" over the head if he did something stupid.

I don't believe that democracy was founded on the principle for people to rule their life, quite the contrary it was founded to secretly rule the masses by lulling them into a "you have your rights" theme song. That's why I also said on many discussions in masonic topics that being a secretive society is not unique to masonry or for example rosicrucians. The state works the same way. There are lost of decent and hardworking people in even the worst government, but these "blue degrees" so to speak don't affect the organization and management of that structure.

thetonic
11-09-2008, 03:58 PM
'Democracy' is simply the switching of a Totalitarian in your face monarch dictatorship to a hidden behind the curtains dictatorship

simple as

elirien
11-09-2008, 04:29 PM
'Democracy' is simply the switching of a Totalitarian in your face monarch dictatorship to a hidden behind the curtains dictatorship

simple as

yup. that was what I meant exactly.

phoilhatloonie
12-09-2008, 09:32 AM
I've read your reasons for considering leaving and I can't say I disagree with you, but there are other like minded brothers out there. I would also posit that this is not the place to consider such things. These people aren't interested in your happiness or your reasons for leaving, just that others agree with them and they get what they want.

tothestars
12-09-2008, 10:02 AM
I've read your reasons for considering leaving and I can't say I disagree with you, but there are other like minded brothers out there. I would also posit that this is not the place to consider such things. These people aren't interested in your happiness or your reasons for leaving, just that others agree with them and they get what they want.


I am interested in his happiness.
I would like everyone to be happy.

My opinions on things are my issues/problems and i dont force it on anyone cause ppl have to follow their own path i feel. Violating this is just bringing the same shit onto myself in the end (and i sure wouldnt cause myself any unnecessary suffering)

ilponn
12-09-2008, 11:15 AM
i to am also intrested in his happiness , like i am with every human , animal,plant,

people are blind to the reality of the world,

they smile as they kill you,

The hypocrisy we all ,see is the lies that they hide ,

elirien
12-09-2008, 12:18 PM
I've read your reasons for considering leaving and I can't say I disagree with you, but there are other like minded brothers out there. I would also posit that this is not the place to consider such things. These people aren't interested in your happiness or your reasons for leaving, just that others agree with them and they get what they want.

Hello generalizing biggot and welcome to the forum :)

Did you ask every member in this forum or are using that sentence like a tv news reporter out of ignorance? Do you think that if people in here didn't care they would write 13 pages? Sorry for the insult but that sentence made me quite cringe. Get your facts before you write such obvious slander.

bendoon
12-09-2008, 12:25 PM
These people aren't interested in your happiness or your reasons for leaving, just that others agree with them and they get what they want.

We do care, we would also want him to leave the Nazi party or the Communist party, or any other subversive organisation.

thelonious
12-09-2008, 01:55 PM
how can something wich in itself is not democratic at all be a supporter of democratic government ?

freemasonry is run like a dictatorship plus on a need to know basis like intelligence agencies.

Not at all. Masonic government is purely democratic, so I have no beef with the it's actually set up. My problem with Masonic government is its apathy instead.

All Masonic leaders are elected by the rank and file from the rank and file. There's no dictatorship, and no need-to-know basis. Any Mason who's interested can attend any Masonic meeting he wants to, and inform himself of what goes on. The only difference is that only Grand Lodge Representatives can vote. It's not much different than the way our forefathers set up the US government, which is based on the theory of Masonic government.

But there's still a problem. Even the the US is a democracy, for example, there is still corruption. Same thing in Masonry. Most of the corruption in Masonic government is passive. It's not that Masonic officials do a lot of bad things, but they tend to ignore members that do. When stuff comes up like the Jesters sex scandal, the Shriners' questionable accounting practices, or even racism, Masonic leaders generally try to sweep it all under the rug instead of actually doing something about it. This has lowered the moral standards of the fraternity's membership, and is a big problem.

thelonious
12-09-2008, 02:00 PM
Well Theolonious that hypocrisy is not unique to masons.

That's true. But Masonic propaganda keeps drolling on about "making good men better", and patting each other on the back about "what great guys we are". It's all empty rhetoric unless and until they really begin to reform.

Anyone declaring that representative democracy is against totalitarian/fascist organizational structures is a hypocrite imho since representative democracy is the tool for the centralization of power

Representative democracy is against totalitarianism only if it incorporates the principles of individual liberty. The Soviet Union, for example, was theoretically representative and democratic, but lacked any sort of freedom on the personal level.

I don't believe that democracy was founded on the principle for people to rule their life, quite the contrary it was founded to secretly rule the masses by lulling them into a "you have your rights" theme song.

I disagree that that was a founding principle, but it certainly seems that's what it's evolved into.

elirien
12-09-2008, 06:07 PM
Theolonius, I don't believe in a coincidence in that evolution state. I think it was set up to be that way. Can't you see the parallels with masonry and the u.s. republic. It sort of devolved in the same manner (perhaps even the same time span). Don't think that I am saying that masonry was innocent before that but I'm also not saying that the U.S. or any other country was innocent before that.

and on representative democracy I think that there could not be individual rights with a mass government system. That could only work in small communities who wouldn't be ruled by a central government (which was also Goethe's idea by the way).

thelonious
12-09-2008, 07:50 PM
Theolonius, I don't believe in a coincidence in that evolution state. I think it was set up to be that way. Can't you see the parallels with masonry and the u.s. republic. It sort of devolved in the same manner (perhaps even the same time span). Don't think that I am saying that masonry was innocent before that but I'm also not saying that the U.S. or any other country was innocent before that.

Democracy in the USA was more of an experiment than a statement. Since the idea came from the English Enlightenment, as did Freemasonry's ideas, I'm not much surprised they've followed the same course.

This, by the way, was predicted by Plato in his "Republic". In it, Plato describes 5 forms of government, calling tyrannies the worst government, and democracies the second worst, under his theory that democracies always descend into tyrannies.

cognizant
12-09-2008, 09:25 PM
Hi Thelonious... My father has been a Mason since I was about 8 (I'm 35) so I grew up in the Lodge. I was a Rainbow Girl as well & think the Eastern Star emblem needs to be redesigned. Everything you say here is what I have been taught since I was a kid. What I say here is from my own personal experience. I have known lots of great Masons but then I also know some that were awful people. However, I think that they would have been awful had they not been Masons. One molested his stepdaugher - BUT he was put through a Masonic trial and thrown out. I also know tons of 33rd degree Masons as well as the leadership of the York and Scottish Rite bodies. I wish it were true that Masons ruled the world b/c with the level of people I grew up around, I wouldn't have to worry about jobs, paying the mortgage, etc! I am trying to keep an open mind to what the anti-Masons are saying here but I just don't see it. In fact, I see Masonry dying out!

On another note, I noticed earlier on that you posted something about the Great Orient? What is that? I also thought I noticed that your jurisdiction doesn't recognize Prince Hall?? Here, some of the PHs attend Blue Lodge as long as they are recognized by our Grand Lodge jurisdiction. We also do have Rainbow Girls who happen to be Black.

In theory, a Freemason is a supporter of democratic government, and cannot support fascism. The founders of Freemasonry ingrained democracy into all aspects of Masonry, as well as other liberal principles such as equality, freedom of religion, freedom of speech, etc. This also helps explain why early Freemasons were also very numerous among freedom fighters in many different countries to insure individual liberties for the people.

Many, such as Washington, Franklin, Garibaldi, Bolivar, and many others, first became exposed to democratic thinking in Masonic Lodges. It also explains why Fascists had universally banned Freemasons and persecuted Masons.

On the other hand, I go back to the same criticism I've had throughout this thread. Too many times I've seen Masons swear to uphold certain ideals and to behave with honor, then turn right around and ignore every word of it as soon as they walk out of the Lodge room.

the guy in pink
13-09-2008, 01:32 AM
Orient = East Several Grand lodges are refered to as the Grand Orient or Grand East.
For Example Holland has " Het Groot Ooste van Nederland"

elcorazon
13-09-2008, 04:19 AM
Thelonius,

According to what I have read George Washington became a Mason in 1752. The Antient Grand Lodge was started in London in 1755 and did not have any lodges in America until the 1770's. How is it possible that Washington could have been an Antient when they didn't exist at the time he was initiated?

Again, according to what I have been able to uncover not all of the Moderns agreed to the merger in 1813. Some of them refused to be a part of it and have worked quietly ever since in England, France, and America.

It appears that the banking system supported by the Antients was created by the Treaty of Paris after the American Revolution. When it was disbanded in 1811 the British invaded and started the War of 1812. Then in 1813 the Antients, through the British government, forced the Modern Grand Lodge in England to merge and form the United Grand Lodge of England of Ancient Freemasonry. Why would they include the word "Ancient" in their new name, if the Antients were not dictating policy. Also, as you pointed out, the Royal Arch was of Antient origin. Why was it also included in the new United Grand Lodge's definition of Freemasonry? These questions all need be asked to form a better understanding.

I also uncovered that the Antients in America tried to force revolutionary war general Putnam to join their Grand Lodge but he refused. They went so far as to elect him as their Grand Master to make it appear that he was with them, but he never served a single day as their Grand Master. His lodge refused to give up its Modern Charter and join with the Antients until after his death and another generation of Masons took control. There is something being hidden here by the present Masons. Something they don't want the public to know. There are clues all around but you have to verify everything they claim and then research it.

There's much more research to be done but the information is out there in books and on the net.

Regarding fascism I found this recent post at burningtaper.com


The Frederick the Great Association

One of the more twisted myths being propagated by 'Regular' Anglo-American Freemasonry of late is that the Nazi's persecuted 'regular' Freemasonry in Germany during it's reign.

'Regular' Freemasonry plays the recognition game if it wants to deny that a particular infamous individual was a Freemason. Usually this is carried out in regard to Grand Orient Freemasons, which it does not recognize as being legitimate Masons because it has it's own operation called 'Grand Lodges' set up in their countries, France being the largest instance.

Thus it is with a particular sense of accomplishment that we have uncovered one of 'regular' American and British Grand Lodge Freemasonry's most noxious official lies; it's record and actions in Nazi Germany. A lie that their favorite recognition game dodge won't work on.

In Germany at the time the Nazi's came to power(with the aid of numerous Freemason High Financiers like Henry Ford) there existed nine Grand Lodges and Orients.

Three Grand Lodges were were known as 'Old Prussian Grand Lodges', which were large, well organized, and contained the bulk of all Freemasons in Germany. Six were called 'Modern Grand Lodges', which were small, isolated, with only a few thousand members each.

One of the groupings had always banned Jews from joining and was fiercely nationalistic and reactionary in it's politics. One of the groupings had always allowed Jews to join and was international and liberal in it's politics.

Guess which Grand Lodge group American and British Freemasonry recognized as being 'regular' Freemasonry and which group it branded as 'irregular' and 'clandestine' Freemasonry?

You guessed right. It was the 'Old Prussian Grand Lodges', which contained the High Command Officers, Industrialists, and Royal Houses who had always banned Jews from joining and which was fiercely nationalistic and reactionary in it's politics that the American and British Grand Lodges recognized as being 'regular'. The 'Moderns', the ones that allowed Jews to join? 'Regular' Freemasonry said they were 'irregular' and 'clandestine'. In other words they did not recognize the Grand Lodges that allowed Jews to join as being Freemasons or Freemasonry what so ever. 'Regular' Freemasonry is trying to hoodwink their recognition of the anti-semitic National Grand Lodges and their non recognition of the non anti-semitic International Grand Lodges.

The Nazi's shut down the 'Modern' Grand Lodges whose membership was heavily jewish, liberal, and 'international', but allowed the 'national' Old Prussian Grand Lodges to carry on after their Grand Master's sent formal written oaths of alliegence to 'Mein Furher', changed their name to 'The Frederick the Great Association'(Frederick the Great being German 'regular' Freemasonry's founder and principal patron.), and removed any obvious Hebraic wording from it's rituals. When the war was over 'regular' Freemasonry operating under the guise of 'The Frederick the Great Association' changed their name back to what it was before Crystal Nacht. You won't see any of this mentioned on any of those 'Is it true what they say about Freemasonry?' or 'Difficult Questions about Freemasonry' web sites that 'regular' Freemasonry has mirrored all over the net.

...

There was absolutely no persecution of 'regular' Freemasonry in Germany. How could there have been? The Old Prussian 'regular' National Grand Lodges were filled with Officers of the High Command, Captains of Industry, Commerce, Finance, Leading Citizens, and Royalty, most of whom were loyal Nazi Party members themselves. The very men who brought Hitler to power. All with the knowledge of American and British 'regular' Grand Lodge Freemasonry and it's hereditary pro-nazi Grand Master the Duke of Kent.

There are lies and then there are damnable lies.

thelonious
15-09-2008, 02:23 PM
On another note, I noticed earlier on that you posted something about the Great Orient? What is that? I also thought I noticed that your jurisdiction doesn't recognize Prince Hall?? Here, some of the PHs attend Blue Lodge as long as they are recognized by our Grand Lodge jurisdiction. We also do have Rainbow Girls who happen to be Black.

None of the southern USA Grand Lodges recognize Prince Hall. Unfortunately, this is due to blatant racism.

The other Grand Lodges do recognize Prince Hall. I don't want to paint all of Masonry with the same broad brush, because in many places Freemasonry is progressive and anti-racist, which is exactly what it's supposed to be. I salute and applaud those Grand Lodges that take a stand against racism and other immoral behavior by its membership.

I don't think that Masonry is completely lost. In fact, it may well be in the beginning of a renaissance. There are a lot of young people coming into Masonry now that are honestly seeking spiritual insight, are educated and intelligent, progressive, and non-racist. These young men are the future of Freemasonry, and I believe they will carry it in the proper direction.

My problem is that we're still a long way from that goal, and by remaining active in it, I feel like I'd be condoning what's going on locally in it: things I morally oppose. If I have a non-Mason friend who asked me to sponsor him, and I did, how could I later explain to him why another member told him that we don't recognize "niggers"?

Yet, on the other hand, I also know that if people inside Masonry who agree with me don't work to change it, it'll never change, and I don't want that to happen either. That's why I'm torn.

thelonious
15-09-2008, 02:43 PM
Thelonius,

According to what I have read George Washington became a Mason in 1752. The Antient Grand Lodge was started in London in 1755 and did not have any lodges in America until the 1770's. How is it possible that Washington could have been an Antient when they didn't exist at the time he was initiated?

The Antient Grand Lodges did not exist, but independent Antient Lodges did. The Antient tradition more or less started with Irish Masons living in England, who were for various reasons excluded from the Grand Lodge of 1717.

The "evidence" used to show that Washington's Lodge was Antient is circumstantial, but generally accepted: his Masonic apron contains Royal Arch symbols.

Again, according to what I have been able to uncover not all of the Moderns agreed to the merger in 1813. Some of them refused to be a part of it and have worked quietly ever since in England, France, and America.

All the regular Antient GL's merged with the Moderns. The schism only existed in England and in the USA.

Then in 1813 the Antients, through the British government, forced the Modern Grand Lodge in England to merge and form the United Grand Lodge of England of Ancient Freemasonry.

The British government was not involved in the merger. In Freemasonry, secular government is considered "profane", and has no Masonic power. The merger came from a unanimous vote of both Grand Lodges. Similar mergers happened in the United States in an effor to heal the schism between the divided fraternity.

Why would they include the word "Ancient" in their new name, if the Antients were not dictating policy.

To show that it was a result of a merger. In the USA, some Grand Lodges are called "Free and Accepted Masons" (F&AM), while others are "Ancient Free & Accepted Masons" (AF&AM). The ones that have "Ancient" in their title are derived from a merger. My own Grand Lodge is AF&AM, having both Antient and Modern parents.

Also, as you pointed out, the Royal Arch was of Antient origin. Why was it also included in the new United Grand Lodge's definition of Freemasonry? These questions all need be asked to form a better understanding.

The Master Mason degree was somewhat different in the two traditions. In the Modern version, the "True Word" was given in the degree, while in the Antient tradition, only a substitute word was given, with the "True Word" being reserved to the Royal Arch. At the merger, it was agreed that the Antient mode of working could continue, but only the first three degrees could be conferred in the Lodge, which was the Modern tradition.

I also uncovered that the Antients in America tried to force revolutionary war general Putnam to join their Grand Lodge but he refused. They went so far as to elect him as their Grand Master to make it appear that he was with them, but he never served a single day as their Grand Master.

I'm not familiar with the story, but it may be correct.


Regarding fascism I found this recent post at burningtaper.com

I'm a big fan of the Burning Taper. The Widow's Son has the same complaints about Masonry as I do, but he's a much better writer and researcher.

From my own research, it is my understanding that the Christian Order of Frederick the Great was composed of Masonic traitors-turned-Nazis. The German Grand Lodges that practiced true Masonry were banned and persecuted, and the Frederick Order was used to disseminate propaganda. They did not use Masonic ritual, and eliminated all reference to things such as Solomon's Temple, Hiram Abiff, and everything else relating to the Jewish scriptures.

The Nazis considered orthodox Masonry to be a Zionist-Communist conspiracy. See http://www.chgs.umn.edu/Histories/otherness/otherness2.html

serpentoffire
15-09-2008, 04:42 PM
Good use of NLP techniques, thelonius.
First you said to leave freakmasonry then you, and your friends, continue to make your propaganda on this forum.
If the positive don't work, you try the negative to reach the same result.
Sorry but I know all the work of Erickson, Bandler and Grinder.

thelonious
16-09-2008, 01:39 PM
Good use of NLP techniques, thelonius.
First you said to leave freakmasonry then you, and your friends, continue to make your propaganda on this forum.


As I said from the very beginning of this thread, I firmly support the principles and teachings of Freemasonry. My problem is that the order has been in large part hijacked by a good-ole-boy system that cares nothing about the true meanings of Masonry.

smoking oceanus
17-09-2008, 03:21 AM
Thelonious, im not sure if you answered this question before, but what is the actual basis philosophy that makes up mysticism in Freemasonry? Is it Kabbalah? Gnosticism? Hermeticism? Is it a mixture of all of them?

Thanks

serpentoffire
17-09-2008, 08:29 AM
Thelonious, im not sure if you answered this question before, but what is the actual basis philosophy that makes up mysticism in Freemasonry? Is it Kabbalah? Gnosticism? Hermeticism? Is it a mixture of all of them?

Thanks

In one word Alchemy.
Ask you him what mean "ceremonial magic", "egregor" and "magic chain".

thelonious
17-09-2008, 01:53 PM
Thelonious, im not sure if you answered this question before, but what is the actual basis philosophy that makes up mysticism in Freemasonry? Is it Kabbalah? Gnosticism? Hermeticism? Is it a mixture of all of them?

Thanks

It's a mixture. In the Blue Lodge degrees, which were the original Masonry, none of those things are directly alluded to, but the Candidate is presented with symbols from those systems at practically every step of his journey. The original idea was apparently to let the Candidate try to figure it all out himself.

Some Masons seem to have considered this method unsatisfactory, so they instituted new degrees to elaborate on those things in more detail. This is what caused the formation of the various "high degree" Rites, which the Scottish and York Rites are most well known. The Scottish Rite in particular pays much more attention to esoteric philosophy. But unfortunately, it's now for the most part just a bunch of guys reciting lines from a ritual manuscript that they themselves usually don't understand.

The weird thing about Masonry is that it teaches through various allegories, symbols, and ritualistic dramas. In other words, it doesn't teach directly so there is wide room for interpretation. Over the centuries the esoteric meaning, like the Word, has been lost.

eternal_spirit
17-09-2008, 02:06 PM
Orient = East Several Grand lodges are refered to as the Grand Orient or Grand East.
For Example Holland has " Het Groot Ooste van Nederland"

Orient as in Oriental? Can you expand on this a little?

serpentoffire
17-09-2008, 03:16 PM
The weird thing about Masonry is that it teaches through various allegories, symbols, and ritualistic dramas. In other words, it doesn't teach directly so there is wide room for interpretation. Over the centuries the esoteric meaning, like the Word, has been lost.

The reason is that alchemy is only for gifted people, not for all, sorry.
Agrippa said that only who have already the gold can make more gold.

Who have clairvoyance is able to decode the mute synoptic tables.
Each degree resemble in encrypted symbolism the teaching of alchemical operations like in the MUTUS LIBER.

http://www.alchemywebsite.com/bookshop/prints_series_mutus.html

thelonious
17-09-2008, 06:07 PM
Orient as in Oriental? Can you expand on this a little?

Grand Lodges are sometimes referred to as "Grand Orients". "Orient" is the Latin word for "east", which is symbolically important in Freemasonry.

An anti-Masonic author I once read speculated that this symbolism referred to Freemasonry's doctrines having originated in the Orient. Personally, I agree with him on that one.

thelonious
17-09-2008, 06:08 PM
The reason is that alchemy is only for gifted people, not for all, sorry.

See my signature.

eternal_spirit
17-09-2008, 07:11 PM
Grand Lodges are sometimes referred to as "Grand Orients". "Orient" is the Latin word for "east", which is symbolically important in Freemasonry.

An anti-Masonic author I once read speculated that this symbolism referred to Freemasonry's doctrines having originated in the Orient. Personally, I agree with him on that one.

Maybe something to do with the sun.

That's what I was getting at, the Oriental connections/origins, but not something I've looked into.
Can you reveal anymore about the doctrines? And how they relate to the Orient.

thelonious
17-09-2008, 08:15 PM
Can you reveal anymore about the doctrines? And how they relate to the Orient.

The Hermetic philosophy of the Greek Adepts and the Kabalah of the Jewish mystics both seem to have derived from similar sources in the ancient orient. Pike theorized that the teachings (which he called the "Holy Doctrine") was the oldest religion, and began in prehistoric India. Pike then speculated that the teachings were preserved by the Magi of Persia, who transmitted them to the Babylonians.

Then (according to Pike) Pythagoras learned the teachings while being initiated in Babylon, and took them to the Mediterranean, founding the mysteries there. From there, they eventually evolved into Freemasonry.

The doctrine itself is pretty simple: it is both Gnostic and Panentheistic, claiming that every human is a divine spark and possesses deep inner wisdom that only few of aware of. The inner spiritual wisdom can be accessed through mystical and/or magical practices. Most if not all religions are based around that basic principle.

serpentoffire
17-09-2008, 08:36 PM
Grand Lodges are sometimes referred to as "Grand Orients". "Orient" is the Latin word for "east", which is symbolically important in Freemasonry.


Orient = where the sun rises -> OSIRIS
All catholic churches are built with their main gate to east.
Same for lodges.

serpentoffire
17-09-2008, 08:45 PM
See my signature.

Not agree. See the difference between "Sons of God" and "Sons of Man".

From Stainer (Burning Bush):


There was a time when one of the Elohim created a human being whom he called Eve. That Elohim united himself with Eve and she gave birth to Cain. After this, another Elohim, named Yahveh, created Adam. Adam also united himself with Eve and from this union came Abel. Thus we see that Cain is a direct descendant of the gods, but Abel is a descendant of Adam and Eve who are human. The sacrifices which Abel made to Yahveh were pleasing to him, but the sacrifices brought by Cain did not please him because the birth of Cain was not ordained by him. The result was that Cain committed fratricide. He killed Abel and for this he was excluded from communion with Yahveh. He went away into distant lands and founded his own race there. We have two generations of mankind: the race of Cain, who was a descendant of Eve and one of the Elohim, and the other race which had human parentage and was brought into existence at the command of Yahveh. Among the descendants of Cain are those who have been creators of art and science, as, for instance, Methuselah [Methushael, Gen 4,18], the inventor of the Tau script, and Tubal-Cain, who taught the use of working of metal ores and iron. In this line of descent, stemming from the Elohim, were all those who trained themselves in the arts and sciences. Hiram also descended from the race of Cain, and he was the inheritor of all that had been learned by the others of his line in technology and art. He was the most significant architect we can imagine. Out of Seth's line came Solomon, who excelled in everything which came from Yahveh. He was endowed with the wisdom of the world and all the attributes of calm, clear, objective wisdom. This wisdom can be expressed in words which go straight to the human heart and can uplift a person, but it is unable to produce anything tangible of a technical nature, in art or science. It is a wisdom which is a directly inspired gift of God and not attained from below through human passions welling up from the human will that would be the wisdom pertaining to the sons of Cain, a legacy of the other Elohim, not Yahveh. They are the hardworking industrious ones who seek to accomplish everything through their own efforts.

serpentoffire
17-09-2008, 08:52 PM
The Hermetic philosophy of the Greek Adepts and the Kabalah of the Jewish mystics both seem to have derived from similar sources in the ancient orient. Pike theorized that the teachings (which he called the "Holy Doctrine") was the oldest religion, and began in prehistoric India. Pike then speculated that the teachings were preserved by the Magi of Persia, who transmitted them to the Babylonians.

Then (according to Pike) Pythagoras learned the teachings while being initiated in Babylon, and took them to the Mediterranean, founding the mysteries there. From there, they eventually evolved into Freemasonry.


I believe that Greece is the real origin of most of occult teaching and hermetism.
New testament, for example, was written originally in Greek not in Hebrew-Aramaic. Hellenic mythology is full of alchemical metaphors. Apocalypse of John is the most alchemical Christian book that I've seen (seven angels with seven trumpets = 7 chakras).

thelonious
17-09-2008, 09:26 PM
Not agree. See the difference between "Sons of God" and "Sons of Man".

From Stainer (Burning Bush):

From a literal perspective, most of the Bible is complete bullshit. Especially the Old Testament, and especially especially the book of Genesis. While some parts of the Bible were written by Adepts, others were written by tribal barbarians, and even all that good stuff in there is eclipsed by superstitious nonsense.

Cain and Abel are mythological. We are descended from an extinct ancestor that we share in common with other great apes...not Adam and Eve.

I believe that Greece is the real origin of most of occult teaching and hermetism.

That's possible, but Pike presents a good case. In fact, the ritual of the 32° of the Scottish Rite is based on it. He was convinced that the teachings came from India via Persia, and the 32° confers upon the candidate the title of "Magus and Prince of the Royal Secret", "Magus" being the singular form of the Persian term "Magi", and the "Royal Secret" being the mystery of the balance, or universal equilibrium.

New testament, for example, was written originally in Greek not in Hebrew-Aramaic. Hellenic mythology is full of alchemical metaphors. Apocalypse of John is the most alchemical Christian book that I've seen (seven angels with seven trumpets = 7 chakras).

I agree. You may be interested to note that I agree with Manly Palmer Hall in that Hiram Abiff is a very cleverly concealed symbol of the Kundalini force.

tinmenace
17-09-2008, 09:33 PM
So, did you leave yet?

phildee3
17-09-2008, 09:58 PM
All catholic churches are built with their main gate to east.



Wrong.
They should be.
Sometimes, when the Romans need a little extra black magic working for them, they'll build them facing west -
like at Glastonbury.

chrism
17-09-2008, 10:54 PM
Wrong.
They should be.
Sometimes, when the Romans need a little extra black magic working for them, they'll build them facing west -
like at Glastonbury.

Actually, in EVERY lodge that I have been in, the entrance is either at the North end of the WEST wall, or the WEST end of the north wall, or sometimes in the very north-west corner. Most lodges are aligned east-west with the master of the lodge in the east. Brethren and visitors enter from the opposite end.

Of course, not all lodges are actually aligned this way, because some use pre-existing buildings and others had to be built in a certain situation, but these also have a figurative north, east, south and west, and the entrance is still in the NW corner.

Just thought I should clarify that one!

Chris

EDIT: That's not to say that all lodges follow the aove, just every single one I have been to.

C

chrism
17-09-2008, 10:58 PM
ADENDUM - should have been quoting Serpent's last post, not the one I actually did. AFAIK you are right about the churches bit, but not having been in one since the last family funeral I can't recall.

C

thetonic
18-09-2008, 03:10 AM
So, did you leave yet?




Of course not.. He is bound in more ways than one

keystone
18-09-2008, 09:32 AM
Of course not.. He is bound in more ways than oneYou know more than me then.

thirdwave
18-09-2008, 10:59 AM
thelonious

I have never really commented on what I think of the Freemasons which is funny as I have been accused of being one a few times... Here is my view.

I actually think it would be wise to leave as why do you need to be there?

The occult does not require such groups... its quite open nowadays and you its not like you are restricted if you are not in some lodge.

the thing is with today, pretty much everything is corrupt, been infiltrated to suit a certain group.... So what ever positive aspects Freemasonry may have had I'm sure they have been watered down to the level where it is no longer effective. It is no doubt corrupt and in many areas used by some nasty people who control the place.. I guess they have had to use some place to hide!.

it is probably being used to keep people more ignorant about the occult than clued up... and only the really high up degrees know the real meat... why hunt for their remains when you can cook your own meal?

its everywhere, and even the people on here trying to claim they know where "the devil" is.... well they too are standing in infiltrated belief systems, most seem to give the advice that will boost the reality they would prefer to be true... nice and simple, us and them... no in-between, no other choices.......

I never really think the group beliefs are all that worth while and freemasonry is no different.. if you have to hide away with it it cant be that free...

I say both the Freemasons and the people here who declare the Devil in Freemasony are not worth it.... go your own way and create your own system, that's what I'm trying to do...

keystone
18-09-2008, 11:32 AM
Thirdwave

That's a very interesting post and you have actually hit upon a very important aspect of Freemasonry which most people do not appreciate at all.

Freemasonry is very much an individual journey of discovery. The Lodge is just a vehicle to introduce you to some basic lessons which can be quite obscure and it is the up to you how you handle yourrself from then on.

Some members are deeply into esoteric and like matters. Others just like the friendship and the social side. BUT you follow your own path. Noone tells me what to study and what not. To my mind Thelonius is plain pissed off with the fish fry and petty politics mentality prevalent in many Lodges. Just because he may leave his particular Lodge it doesn't mean he won't still be a Freemason and certainly not for the reasons Thetonic is hinting at either because they don't exist.

There is no "group belief" system. It's not a religion.

I have met many people in my lifetime who are truly masonic in their attitude and approach to life and other people who have never set foot inside a Lodgerom nor are they likley to. If you have been mistake for a Freemason then it seems that perhaps you are of that ilk and you'll probably understand what I'm talking about.

thirdwave
18-09-2008, 11:53 AM
Thirdwave

That's a very interesting post and you have actually hit upon a very important aspect of Freemasonry which most people do not appreciate at all.

Freemasonry is very much an individual journey of discovery. The Lodge is just a vehicle to introduce you to some basic lessons which can be quite obscure and it is the up to you how you handle yourrself from then on.

Some members are deeply into esoteric and like matters. Others just like the friendship and the social side. BUT you follow your own path. Noone tells me what to study and what not. To my mind Thelonius is plain pissed off with the fish fry and petty politics mentality prevalent in many Lodges. Just because he may leave his particular Lodge it doesn't mean he won't still be a Freemason and certainly not for the reasons Thetonic is hinting at either because they don't exist.

There is no "group belief" system. It's not a religion.

I have met many people in my lifetime who are truly masonic in their attitude and approach to life and other people who have never set foot inside a Lodgerom nor are they likley to. If you have been mistake for a Freemason then it seems that perhaps you are of that ilk and you'll probably understand what I'm talking about.


I kind of do know where you are coming from... and no doubt even now will be seen as some disinfo agent trying to cast some of my mind control over the forum, or some mind control casualty.... of course as soon as they feel somone is making sense about something they don't feel easy with, then it must be mind control...

Like a crazed bank robber getting terrified if anyone moves...even is somone is simply scratching them selves..

Its keeping an open mind to what groups like the Freemasons are all about and if maybe there has been good intentions in there somewhere along the line... it is illegal to do this apparently, to ask that question. There for you do wonder with the mentality from others in the masses who stab in the dark so aggressively are no more responsible than those they are attacking, just less powerful....

However I have learnt that within the occult it is very easy for people to forget who they are and develop a very high and mighty perspective of them selves ... because they see stupidity in many people they assume that they are of more value and I think this is where many in the occult go wrong and hinder them selves as well... I see there are bad people on both sides of the fence, and good of course.

keystone
18-09-2008, 12:28 PM
Yes the problem is anyone mentions freemason and a large number of peeps get the conniptions and blow out a load of old nonsense.

Freemasonry did itself a great disservice by taking the "no comment" line on any information good or bad. Luckily peeps at the top have seen the Light as it were but it will always be too late for certain diehard detractors.

Incidentally noone speaks for freemasonry BTW. Any opinion I or anyone else offers is their own and their own alone.

Yes - your last paragraph is true. Very damaging this very small minority can be anf have been in the past. Take Crowley for example. But hey ho someone will take this post as an opportunity to loudly proclaim "See we were right all along the small cabal of evil 33 degree freemasons really do run the world." Nothing could be further from the truth but you can only take a horse to the waterside...............

thelonious
18-09-2008, 01:41 PM
So, did you leave yet?





I haven't yet resigned or made a final decision on what to do. I've scaled back my activities until I decide what I need to do, and have talked to several other Masons who have the same problems with it that I do.

I was attending Masonic meetings about an average of three times a week. Since I've started this thread, I've only been to 2, both at my mother lodge where the guys generally agree with me on this sort of stuff.

serpentoffire
18-09-2008, 02:48 PM
Wrong.
They should be.
Sometimes, when the Romans need a little extra black magic working for them, they'll build them facing west -
like at Glastonbury.

San Peter in Rome (my city), main gate to east.

http://i241.photobucket.com/albums/ff118/serpentoffire/piramid-rome.jpg

barney_rubble
18-09-2008, 04:47 PM
I haven't yet resigned or made a final decision on what to do. I've scaled back my activities until I decide what I need to do, and (I) have talked to several other Masons who have the same problems with it that I do.



My emphasis above.

Do you and your serveral like minded masons make seven or more? If so have you though of forming your own Lodge?
A lot of work I know but ...?

tinmenace
18-09-2008, 06:00 PM
I haven't yet resigned or made a final decision on what to do. I've scaled back my activities until I decide what I need to do, and have talked to several other Masons who have the same problems with it that I do.

I was attending Masonic meetings about an average of three times a week. Since I've started this thread, I've only been to 2, both at my mother lodge where the guys generally agree with me on this sort of stuff.

Well at least you're moving in the right direction.

elirien
19-09-2008, 10:59 AM
My emphasis above.

Do you and your serveral like minded masons make seven or more? If so have you though of forming your own Lodge?
A lot of work I know but ...?

Don't get me wrong but why should they ?

Sometimes you guys behave like evangelical Christians and I'm not trying to slander anyone. It's just an observation.

No one was born in the lodge you know...

thelonious
19-09-2008, 01:36 PM
Don't get me wrong but why should they ?



It wouldn't help anyway. The problem is not my individual Lodge. The active members of my Lodge are good people and I have don't any problem with them. My problem is with the system as a whole in the way that it has evolved.

The possible light at the end of the tunnel is the new members. The younger guys are not racists: they were born after schools were integrated and have always had black friends. They tend not to be religious evangelicals, and are more open-minded to religious questions. And while they currently don't have a lot of political power in Masonry, eventually they will because they are the fraternity's future. The old guard are literally old guard: the guys who run Masonry are aging quickly. One brother who shares my views recently told me that "Masonry will change one funeral at a time".

This is probably true, but on the other hand, I feel like I have better things to do than sit around in the Lodge waiting for folks to die off.

thelonious
19-09-2008, 09:01 PM
I just received an email saying that this morning at its Annual Meeting, the Grand Lodge of Ancient Free and Accepted Masons of North Carolina voted to grant Prince Hall Masons complete and full recognition. North Carolina is now the first state in the southern USA to grant full recognition to Prince Hall.

The racists have been trying all year to muster enough support to defeat the measure. However, recognition was passed by well over a 2/3 majority of the Masonic delegates.

Congratulations to North Carolina, and welcome to the 21st century.

speculative
22-09-2008, 12:50 PM
2/3 is a good percentage to win with...maybe people are starting to come round!

elirien
22-09-2008, 06:49 PM
2/3 is a good percentage to win with...maybe people are starting to come round!

Well I was about to say the same thing although with a different context. :D

Nevertheless, it is kind of a good thing of course in terms of being politically correct. What would it change for the african ethnicity mason I don't know. I doubt they will ever get any decent recognition (which is a good way on one perspective).

goldman
22-09-2008, 08:38 PM
Thing is though, it's not the dogma I have a problem with. I believe in the teachings of Freemasonry: social justice, universal brotherhood, democratic government by the people, religious freedom, separation of church and state, and equality.

So does Satanists, and so does the church of Satan, but it doesn't mean it's OK to join them based on that.

thelonious
22-09-2008, 09:16 PM
So does Satanists, and so does the church of Satan, but it doesn't mean it's OK to join them based on that.

The Church of Satan opposes all ideas of equality and universal brotherhood (Satanists are Objectivists) and democratic government (they tend to be quasi-fascists). See the writings of Anton Szandor Lavey (and those found on their website, www.churchofsatan.com) for more details.

speculative
22-09-2008, 10:06 PM
Nevertheless, it is kind of a good thing of course in terms of being politically correct. What would it change for the african ethnicity mason I don't know. I doubt they will ever get any decent recognition (which is a good way on one perspective).

Not really sure what you mean here?

If he was a member of the GL of NC then they can now visit lodges under the PH GL of NC and if they are a PH mason they can now visit lodges under the GL of NC

lots of double letters arent there?! lol

arrowwind
22-09-2008, 11:07 PM
Hi Thelonious,

My father was and a good friend of mine is, a mason.

Here is the truth.

Every organization will reflect the fears and ignorance of its geographical location, its educational status toned and qualified by its cultural beliefs and its level of spiritual enlightenment as a collective consciousness.

My friend has moved around a lot and hence practiced in a number of different lodges. He says that some are quite boring and they really don't do much at all. Others are corrupt. Other are inspirational. It all depends on the people in each local area and what their collective interests are.

Masons will endure. This you can count on. You can either leave or remain and to become a spokesperson for truth, charity, ethics, and love. If you leave them to do their dirty work or to stumble around in their own ignorance they will just continue on without the wisdom you may potentially afford to them.

All organizations have a polarity of conflicting interests in them. If you feel like they are beating you up you might as well leave. If you feel that you can stand for the principles that you think Masonry is about then stay and be a light.

When my dad died I was 13. He rarely went to a meeting yet shortly after the funeral my mother was handed a check. She would never tell me how much. Also, the kitchen dad was in the middle of remodeling got done right quick. They were very helpful to our family at this dark time. Nothing was ever asked for in return

As a nurse, living in Dallas Texas, I had a number of patients that I would take to the Shriner's Hospital for care. They were excellent and the families never got a bill. They do tremendous work. Children I have taken there were white, black hispanic and even illegals... they do not ask and they do not bill. I thought that this was quite a statement of their intent and heart.

Now I am full aware of all the "occult" and "conspiracy" stuff around the masons. But you will find this in almost every organization and church.
When it comes to power there are those who will abuse and get others to abuse with them. When it comes to power there are those who will stand up and be a beacon for others who have not evolved enough to live with love and compassion and intelligence, to show them the ethical road.

More than any god worship I always though that masonics was a training in ethics and in doing good works.. this is how it is in some lodges anyway, as far as I can tell.

Now Im sure some of the bull shit claimed on the group may be true, but through an organization if you have some authority you can use that authority to make wrongs right. At a level 32 I would guess you might have some of that clout. Perhaps you need to speak your mind more at meetings.
Perhaps you could make the challenge more of ethics than power or money, or politics.

Consider this. Organizations are stages of play where the actors can act out and learn a variety of experiences that common daily life will not present. Masons are extravagant players with costume, and all kinds of secret little things... but it is just a stage, just a context for certain kinds of experiences.
When people play with power things can get messy but what a learning stage it is.

Throwing away a level 32 should be deeply reflected upon. You have worked and been given a position. I would say, use it.

In Loving Light,
Arrow

arrowwind
22-09-2008, 11:35 PM
There seems to be a variety of Masonic organizations.

Ancient Arabic Order of the Nobles of the Mystic Shrine is responsible for the hospitals and this site lists all 20 of them. I wonder how many local lodges it takes to pay for just one hospital. Your insurance card and cash are not accepted there. I sure private endowments are given also.
Shriners Hospitals for Children - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

so these organizations are obviously a mixed bag of light and dark, as is just about any person that I know.

goldman
23-09-2008, 12:18 AM
The Church of Satan opposes all ideas of equality and universal brotherhood (Satanists are Objectivists) and democratic government (they tend to be quasi-fascists). See the writings of Anton Szandor Lavey (and those found on their website, www.churchofsatan.com) for more details.

Rest assured, I've read it very carefully so they don't agree on 1 point, but all other points they believe in as well. In other words it's as general as one can get, and really no reason to become a mason nor satanist.

heck, we can look even further, most communist think like masons, does that also give you a reason to join them because it sounds so good but never questioned their origins and agenda? ;)

elirien
23-09-2008, 11:20 AM
I'm sorry but I couldn't resist. First of all, thank you for the easy to read color.

Hi Thelonious,

My father was and a good friend of mine is, a mason.

Here is the truth.


Nothing to comment. Moving on.


Every organization will reflect the fears and ignorance of its geographical location, its educational status toned and qualified by its cultural beliefs and its level of spiritual enlightenment as a collective consciousness.


Masonry is not "every organization". Generalization shouldn't apply here imho. Find me common ground between a masonic lodge with "jahbulon", "jachin", "boaz", "hiram abiff", "nimrod", "the architect (not creator btw) of the universe" and many other esoteric and mystery babylon type teachings and let's say a canadian book club or a country club.



My friend has moved around a lot and hence practiced in a number of different lodges. He says that some are quite boring and they really don't do much at all. Others are corrupt. Other are inspirational. It all depends on the people in each local area and what their collective interests are.


Why is your friend a reference to another human beings life and choices?


Masons will endure. This you can count on. You can either leave or remain and to become a spokesperson for truth, charity, ethics, and love. If you leave them to do their dirty work or to stumble around in their own ignorance they will just continue on without the wisdom you may potentially afford to them.

I know that this post was not addressed to me but I still have to ask these questions. What will masons endure and how do you know they will?

How do you become a spokesperson for truth, charity, ethics and love while remaining as a member of a masonic lodge?


All organizations have a polarity of conflicting interests in them. If you feel like they are beating you up you might as well leave. If you feel that you can stand for the principles that you think Masonry is about then stay and be a light.

That comes from the french word mason, "sons of light" right?



When my dad died I was 13. He rarely went to a meeting yet shortly after the funeral my mother was handed a check. She would never tell me how much. Also, the kitchen dad was in the middle of remodeling got done right quick. They were very helpful to our family at this dark time. Nothing was ever asked for in return

As a nurse, living in Dallas Texas, I had a number of patients that I would take to the Shriner's Hospital for care. They were excellent and the families never got a bill. They do tremendous work. Children I have taken there were white, black hispanic and even illegals... they do not ask and they do not bill. I thought that this was quite a statement of their intent and heart.


Just because you got smeared with niceties and good behavior caused by your mason dad doesn't mean that some masons are a representation what masonry is all about. You are also not a representation of the whole other aspect of masonry that is being widely debated in here and many other media.

And Shriners... Well... http://www.newsvine.com/shriners


Now I am full aware of all the "occult" and "conspiracy" stuff around the masons. But you will find this in almost every organization and church.
When it comes to power there are those who will abuse and get others to abuse with them. When it comes to power there are those who will stand up and be a beacon for others who have not evolved enough to live with love and compassion and intelligence, to show them the ethical road.

More than any god worship I always though that masonics was a training in ethics and in doing good works.. this is how it is in some lodges anyway, as far as I can tell.

Well no I don't believe that you are fully aware since no one almost is and if you would be fully aware you wouldn't use personal stories as reference. You are not a mason. Why do you just look at one side of their behavior?


Now Im sure some of the bull shit claimed on the group may be true, but through an organization if you have some authority you can use that authority to make wrongs right. At a level 32 I would guess you might have some of that clout. Perhaps you need to speak your mind more at meetings.
Perhaps you could make the challenge more of ethics than power or money, or politics.

Well here I can't say anything. This proves that 32. degrees have no force what so ever and this proves to me also that a real hardcore hierarchy is in the working here. Not that I am taking arrowwind as a reference here. Quite the contrary. It's because of thelonious.

Btw, if it is true it is not bullshit.



Consider this. Organizations are stages of play where the actors can act out and learn a variety of experiences that common daily life will not present. Masons are extravagant players with costume, and all kinds of secret little things... but it is just a stage, just a context for certain kinds of experiences.
When people play with power things can get messy but what a learning stage it is.

Lol :D

Tell that to the victims of Mister Truman's atom bomb. Tell their children that it all was a play and that those guys were just learning a variety of experiences.



Throwing away a level 32 should be deeply reflected upon. You have worked and been given a position. I would say, use it.

In Loving Light,
Arrow

Well this has nothing to do with me, and I apologize for all the dissection and bold marking going on but I couldn't help myself.

Last question: Whose or what's loving light?

Respectfully

elirien
23-09-2008, 11:30 AM
Not really sure what you mean here?

If he was a member of the GL of NC then they can now visit lodges under the PH GL of NC and if they are a PH mason they can now visit lodges under the GL of NC

lots of double letters arent there?! lol

Oh hell yeah. I didn't understand a thing over here. Write me a legend or something will ya :D PH is prince hall and GL is grand lodge. That I do understand. Well visitation is kinda cute and nice although how would you feel if you are an african american mason. I for one would kinda kick this thing to the curb for treating me like a second class citizen and also for harboring maniacs like Pike (no theolonius I'm still not convinced that he is a nice guy).

speculative
23-09-2008, 12:25 PM
Oh hell yeah. I didn't understand a thing over here. Write me a legend or something will ya :D

I do beg your pardon there! :D
NC - North Carolina

No im not for an instant saying that its right, other GL's have had recognition with PH GL's for years and so it is rather sad that some still hold out. BUT at least there is the majority now showing that the future could be brighter.

Incidentily (spelling?!) just because you may be an african american, it would not have stopped you joining what i think your thinking of as white only GL's, nor would a white man be stopped from joining a PH lodge if he wished. its just that now they can all visit where they couldnt before, the lodges were still mixed as i understand it (though obviously i can see how it might have been harder for this in some of the "old guard" lodges but thankfully even that seems to be changing now).

hopefully that should get across what i meant, that although bleak that its only happening now, at least its moving in the right direction and the majority want it

keystone
23-09-2008, 12:39 PM
.......maniacs like Pike (no theolonius I'm still not convinced that he is a nice guy).Neither am I and Crowley was a fruitloop.

tinmenace
23-09-2008, 12:39 PM
Masons will endure.

I have to disagree there.

Just my 2cents

elirien
23-09-2008, 01:14 PM
I do beg your pardon there! :D
NC - North Carolina

No im not for an instant saying that its right, other GL's have had recognition with PH GL's for years and so it is rather sad that some still hold out. BUT at least there is the majority now showing that the future could be brighter.

Incidentily (spelling?!) just because you may be an african american, it would not have stopped you joining what i think your thinking of as white only GL's, nor would a white man be stopped from joining a PH lodge if he wished. its just that now they can all visit where they couldnt before, the lodges were still mixed as i understand it (though obviously i can see how it might have been harder for this in some of the "old guard" lodges but thankfully even that seems to be changing now).

hopefully that should get across what i meant, that although bleak that its only happening now, at least its moving in the right direction and the majority want it

Well I understand. Sammy Davis Jr. was a freemason if I'm remembering correctly although I couldn't find what lodge he was from.

About visitation I can just say that I could visit a lodge as well now can't I? I never tried actually.

thelonious
23-09-2008, 03:36 PM
[FONT="Lucida Sans Unicode"][COLOR="Purple"]

Every organization will reflect the fears and ignorance of its geographical location, its educational status toned and qualified by its cultural beliefs and its level of spiritual enlightenment as a collective consciousness.

I agree. My problem here is that the Masons claim to be "spiritually enlightened", whereas, in general, they are not. There are individual Masons who are enlightened, and the Masonic system is geared to shed enlightenment...but the majority of our membership aren't very enlightened at all and are often in fact far behind non-Masons.

Therefore, when the fraternity makes all these claims about "bringing people to light" and "making good men better", it's more than not just a bunch of empty rhetoric.


Masons will endure. This you can count on.

Traditional Masonry in the USA is currently in a state of crisis. It is quickly going the way of the Oddfellows and the Knights of Pythias, on its march to extinction. 85% of our total membership do not participate in any Masonic activities at all. It is common, in Lodges that have 300+ members, to only have 10 or 12 people show up for the meetings.

If Masonry continues on the road it's on, it will be nothing more than a historical oddity in 50 years.


When my dad died I was 13. He rarely went to a meeting yet shortly after the funeral my mother was handed a check. She would never tell me how much. Also, the kitchen dad was in the middle of remodeling got done right quick. They were very helpful to our family at this dark time. Nothing was ever asked for in return

I do not deny the good that Masonry has done, and even continues to do. But it's also done evil, and continues to do so.

As a nurse, living in Dallas Texas, I had a number of patients that I would take to the Shriner's Hospital for care. They were excellent and the families never got a bill. They do tremendous work. Children I have taken there were white, black hispanic and even illegals... they do not ask and they do not bill. I thought that this was quite a statement of their intent and heart.

I am a Shriner (or at least a former Shriner). My membership was suspended there because I refused to pay any dues after I had been initiated (that was about 10 years ago). The Shrine initiation is the most idiotic thing I've ever witnessed, and consists of nothing but juvenile hazing.

The Shrine Hospitals are now funded by a foundation that was established by the original Shriners. So while modern Shriners like to take the credit for it, they really don't give much money to it anymore. Most of the Shrine's fundraising goes to Carribean cruises and trips to Vegas.


Now I am full aware of all the "occult" and "conspiracy" stuff around the masons. But you will find this in almost every organization and church.

I don't believe that there are any institutionalized conspiracies in Freemasonry, and very few Masons have any interest in the occult. My problem is that the organization is for the most part an example of the blind leading the blind. There is an appaling lack of leadership in the fraternity that has set it on the road to destruction.



At a level 32 I would guess you might have some of that clout. Perhaps you need to speak your mind more at meetings.

I've spoken till I was blue in the face. It's like trying to convince a brick wall to move.

thelonious
23-09-2008, 03:40 PM
how would you feel if you are an african american mason. I for one would kinda kick this thing to the curb for treating me like a second class citizen and also for harboring maniacs like Pike (no theolonius I'm still not convinced that he is a nice guy).

Actually, Pike is respected in the Prince Hall community. He was one of the first white Masons to publicly proclaim the legitimacy of PH Masonry. Furthermore, he personally presented the manuscripts of the Scottish Rite degree rituals he revised to Brother Thornton Jackson, who was the black Grand Commander of the Prince Hall Scottish Rite.

I don't always agree with Pike, but it would be hard to say that he wasn't a nice guy. If you were to read his books, I think you'd see that.

Re: what keystone said, that's a big difference between Pike and Crowley. Crowley, although a great writer and serious scholar, was NOT a nice guy. An interesting one, sure, but not a nice one, lol.

barney_rubble
25-09-2008, 06:49 PM
It wouldn't help anyway. The problem is not my individual Lodge. The active members of my Lodge are good people and I have don't any problem with them. My problem is with the system as a whole in the way that it has evolved.

The possible light at the end of the tunnel is the new members. The younger guys are not racists: they were born after schools were integrated and have always had black friends. They tend not to be religious evangelicals, and are more open-minded to religious questions. And while they currently don't have a lot of political power in Masonry, eventually they will because they are the fraternity's future. The old guard are literally old guard: the guys who run Masonry are aging quickly. One brother who shares my views recently told me that "Masonry will change one funeral at a time".

This is probably true, but on the other hand, I feel like I have better things to do than sit around in the Lodge waiting for folks to die off.

Two things:


I am not as disillusioned as you when it comes to the state of Masonry on the whole. Here in Ontario Canada it is doing fine (IMO)

If you can't wait for the "old boys" to die off then do something about it. I mean - "come on you are a 32nd degree". I am sure you can 'arrange' something. :D:D:D:D:D:D:D:D;)

keystone
29-09-2008, 11:18 AM
I don't always agree with Pike, but it would be hard to say that he wasn't a nice guy.OK.

Re: what keystone said, that's a big difference between Pike and Crowley. Crowley, although a great writer and serious scholar, was NOT a nice guy. An interesting one, sure, but not a nice one, lol.Of course there is a big difference. I just threw that one in to make my view of him clear BEFORE someone else started the "and what about Crowley" stuff. :D