On 9/11 disinformation

[john white]

Does the dispute about planes/no-planes include the Pentagon event?

I mean, does it piss anyone off to suggest that no plane hit the Pentagon? Or,
is that still part of the dispute?

I'd say it was

But not becuase I streneously stick to "there were four planes" no matter what

I'd say it was becuase if we are too quick to be certain of anything (or everything) then we risk being manipualted right into a trap: as those who concretely believe no planes hit the towers HAVE been

How it actually is:

Evidence of Plane at Shankville: Very Weak

Evidence of Plane at Pentagon: Weak

Evidence of Planes at Towers: Overwhelmingly strong

But can No Planes at Pentagon or Shanskville be PROVEN?

NO: if for no other reason than the evidence actually available, though weak, is also small, and it is always possible that new evidence could be released by the PTB overwhelmingly proving planes at both those locations. We should theroefre say it is unlikely there were planes at pentagon and shanksville: NOt that there were none

Disinformation works on playing people off against polarities

The official story is obviously 4 planes at 3 locations

So when people question that story they are VERY succeptable to having the belief imposed on them that becuase ONE part of the story is very weak, all parts must be false: then they go off and invent (or soak up) all sorts of bollocks to defend their new reality bubble and can be induced to do so utterly irrationally becuase they feel that if they accept any of the official story they are "selling out2 in some way

They then become paranoid conspiracy theory victims: LIKE MFP

Im not saying that to be cruel: but it IS the truth

The most likely explanation is that the strongest evidence points most strongly to the truth:

And personally I consider the highest balance of probability to be that 9/11 was PART real and PART fake:

By doing that the control of the issue is guarenteed in place because the polarities will play off against each other indefinately even though they are BOTH victims of misinformation and disinformation and BOTH wrong

Meanwhile the criminals sit out their time in office and move on, new heads take their places atop the hydra, they get away scotch free, and 9/11 becomes just another meaningless conspriacy theory hobby, not a vehicle for radical social change

At least: thats what the architecs of 9/11 WANT: they have only been part succesful in getting us to perform for them but as time goes on the issue loses traction and they do gain ground

And I admit it IS a challenge not to get frustrated with the victims of disinformation for being utterly unwitting pawns in providing the cover up: its sick, its horrible, I hate it: but its not MFP or Pixies or Dave52 or Sidlittles fault they have been played: they simply dont have the experiaqnce to clearly see whats happening and genuinely think they are doing the right thing. Thats psyops for you. Its far easier to manipulate peoples sense of right than make people do wrong

But it certainly IS the fault of creatures like Wood or Fetzer who are knowing agents in this. Johnson I dont know about, I consider it possible he is merely an attention seeker, he doesnt seem that astute to me. Shayler who knows where his head is at? I think it most likely he is a victim too

Now if anyone does agree with the above:

Do say so

[dangermouse]

Focus on stuff you can prove . simple as that otherwise people won't take you seriously ...
Personally I am still open to the possibility of No Planes I just don't think its as likely.

[masonfree party]

obviously a fixed poll....so why bother?

[zarah]

I don't understand why you would think it was fixed..

Anyway, Im in the middle of reading this amazing essay by Dr. Lazlo Toth in which he details all events which occured on 9/11 and discusses the theories, including the NP one. I'll post it when Im finished.

I agree with the concept of focusing on what can be proved for now..the full truth'll come out in time.

[christophera]

And I admit it IS a challenge not to get frustrated with the victims of disinformation for being utterly unwitting pawns in providing the cover up: its sick, its horrible, I hate it: but its not MFP or Pixies or Dave52 or Sidlittles fault they have been played: they simply dont have the experiaqnce to clearly see whats happening and genuinely think they are doing the right thing. Thats psyops for you. Its far easier to manipulate peoples sense of right than make people do wrong


Well said. Because the poll is about no planes, which I cannot entertain, I can't even fathom the poll.

Imagine how I feel knowing that the entire movement has been deceived into believing the official story related to the core of the Twin Towers. The entire movement refuses to reasonably discuss evidence with appropriate conclusion and continues to use the FEMA information as if it did not matter what the core was.

Elected officials that will work for truth can ask for a limited investigation into a deception by FEMA regarding the towers core structure and they can do so without fear of trashing their career. Asking for an investigation into demolition is political suicide.

All that is required to show justification for that action by elected officials is a solid questioning of the profound lack of evidence for steel core columns from 9-1 by the truth movement. The fact that the Towers engineer identified a concrete core 2 days after 9-11 in a Newsweek article added to many others indicating a circumstance where plans are not made available to NIST and the ex NYC mayor stealing the plans from city offices and silverstein leaking plans showing obvious signs of fakery, absolutely throw the official story of the towers structure into question.

But will the truth movement question the official statement of the strcutures design in a public way? No.

Meanwhile me and my information has been slandered fro trying to gain the movements attention to actual evidence and without the movements attention to evidence, there is a very good chance that FEMA will get away with the deception. I believe that is the end of the quest for truth and the beginning of slavery.

[john white]

Imagine how I feel knowing that the entire movement has been deceived into believing the official story related to the core of the Twin Towers. The entire movement refuses to reasonably discuss evidence with appropriate conclusion and continues to use the FEMA information as if it did not matter what the core was.

I understand how you feel Christophera: I've always thought you were a genuine guy. Equally I've always felt the problem with your perspective is not that it didnt matter how the Core was constructed: but it does matter to be able to absolutely conslusively prove that the core was constructed radically differently to how the vast amount of data says it was constructed, and you'd have to admit, I hope you agree, that you are missing data that you yourself consider vital to proving your argument

Surely then a positive course of action is to say "I believe the evidence I have managed to collect suggest the possibility that the towers consturction was radically different with a concrete core and I present that to you so you can be aware of that possibility whilst I continue with further research in the hope of better determining the truth of the matter": and try to be understanding rather than disheartened that others do not rush to accept your POV with the current backing you can give for it... and of course, it is always a possibility that further research might lead you to alter your ideas in the light of new evidence... when research isnt complete, thats always something one must remain open to

At least: thats what I'd do

[dondaz]

http://i164.photobucket.com/albums/u39/dazp5/drunk-santa-npt.jpg

[revolutionary_jam]

look, we all agree that Ted Bundy is driving the bus,
Can we not please chuck him off the bus THEN argue about how he got employed etx.

[john white]

Hey john, what the biggest piece of info you've seen that destroys the ntp ?

Hmmm interesting question

I wouldnt over focus on any one peice of information: any single point of view can be argued against by anyone with a modicum of skill so saying "this single point proves it" is a bit of a noob thing to do truthseeking wise

Looking at the big picture, its a theory that postulates total control of every image and every witness. That in itself is an extraordinary proposition for an event with such an orgy of evidence. With an event with very little evidence, like the pentagon or shanksville, its easier to see that the presentation of that situation could be controled.

With thousands in New York gawping at the towers at the time of the second hit, especially the crowds from across the Hudson with excellent views (over those close up in manhatten), hundreds of cameras from all different angles and distances, and the images being utterly consistant every single time, NPT has an enourmous mountain to climb right from the start, and has to declare "LIAR! AGENT!" for every single person who witnessed events in New york. One single genuine image, one single genuine witness: its then all over for NPT. I'd say a lot of 9/11activists recognise this very swiftly, and the question then becomes "whats going on in the heads of those who dont?"

Then there are the troubling problems of creating the plane shaped damaged in the exterior of the towers and simulating the fireball without a plane to cause it (Thats a LOT of jet fuel to have stored up there ready and NO missile could produce a fuel fireball that massive)

Finally we can look at all the obvious frauds misclaims and misdirections, the refusal to take responsibility for those claims, the repitition of those claims inspite of compelling evidence demonstrating there falsity, and the general atagonistic attitude of the main movers and shakers (Judy Wood, Killtown Fred Webfairy etc etc) and we end up with a theory only fit for the bin pile

[mr_self_destruct]

I understand how you feel Christophera: I've always thought you were a genuine guy. Equally I've always felt the problem with your perspective is not that it didnt matter how the Core was constructed: but it does matter to be able to absolutely conslusively prove that the core was constructed radically differently to how the vast amount of data says it was constructed, and you'd have to admit, I hope you agree, that you are missing data that you yourself consider vital to proving your argument

That's exactly it Christophera...you really need that video...

[dondaz]

Hey john, what the biggest piece of info you've seen that destroys the ntp ?
Hmmm interesting question


I wouldnt over focus on any one peice of information: any single point of view can be argued against by anyone with a modicum of skill so saying "this single point proves it" is a bit of a noob thing to do truthseeking wise

Looking at the big picture, its a theory that postulates total control of every image and every witness. That in itself is an extraordinary proposition for an event with such an orgy of evidence. With an event with very little evidence, like the pentagon or shanksville, its easier to see that the presentation of that situation could be controled.

With thousands in New York gawping at the towers at the time of the second hit, especially the crowds from across the Hudson with excellent views (over those close up in manhatten), hundreds of cameras from all different angles and distances, and the images being utterly consistant every single time, NPT has an enourmous mountain to climb right from the start, and has to declare "LIAR! AGENT!" for every single person who witnessed events in New york. One single genuine image, one single genuine witness: its then all over for NPT. I'd say a lot of 9/11activists recognise this very swiftly, and the question then becomes "whats going on in the heads of those who dont?"

Then there are the troubling problems of creating the plane shaped damaged in the exterior of the towers and simulating the fireball without a plane to cause it (Thats a LOT of jet fuel to have stored up there ready and NO missile could produce a fuel fireball that massive)

Finally we can look at all the obvious frauds misclaims and misdirections, the refusal to take responsibility for those claims, the repitition of those claims inspite of compelling evidence demonstrating there falsity, and the general atagonistic attitude of the main movers and shakers (Judy Wood, Killtown Fred Webfairy etc etc) and we end up with a theory only fit for the bin pile

This needs some serious debunking JW, but I don't think there's a living soul that could actually challenge what you have just said! Sums the npt up lock stock and smoking barrels.

Challenge the info guys!:D

[christophera]

That's exactly it Christophera...you really need that video...


No,...........WE need that video becasuse that will be the only way to get the numbers involved that are needed to gain accountability.

[sidlittle]

This needs some serious debunking JW, but I don't think there's a living soul that could actually challenge what you have just said! Sums the npt up lock stock and smoking barrels.

Challenge the info guys!:D
ok. ;)

With thousands in New York gawping at the towers at the time of the second hit, especially the crowds from across the Hudson with excellent views (over those close up in manhatten), hundreds of cameras from all different angles and distances, and the images being utterly consistant every single time, NPT has an enourmous mountain to climb right from the start, and has to declare "LIAR! AGENT!" for every single person who witnessed events in New york. One single genuine image, one single genuine witness: its then all over for NPT.

Once again we are throwing a cute little party for Mr logic and Miss circular - "There were thousands of witnesses because there were planes".

Secondly, if there were 'hundreds of cameras from all different angles and distances" why do we have so few images and videos ? (approx 36 'amateur' vids)

Thirdly, If one video turned up on you tube showing a missile strike or just an explosion, what would happen? Bring on thousands of comments of 'FAKE!' and no mainstream attention.

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=S7rRXJ87oPo -

this video of course is highlighting how easy it is to manipulate video so presumably my point is made and understood.

Fourthly, rather than declaring 'liars' or 'agents' I'm rather more inclined to suggest that there were many 'witnesses' who were rather deceived. I would also suggest however, that there are plenty of Walter Mittys out there. Our social engineers are aware of this too.

Fifthly , show me a witness to planes and i'll show you a witness to just explosions, or a missile, or a small plane, or a plane that circled the building before striking the tower.

Sixthly , give me control of the media and I will give you an evening news story about flying bananas attacking Tokyo and present you with 200 'credible' witnesses by the morning.

Then there are the troubling problems of creating the plane shaped damaged in the exterior of the towers and simulating the fireball without a plane to cause it (Thats a LOT of jet fuel to have stored up there ready and NO missile could produce a fuel fireball that massive)

(forgive me for copy & pasting from an earlier post)
Quite apparent to anyone who watches 911 Amateur Part 2, the focus of the video is the creation of the plane shaped hole 6 seconds after the supposed impact of Flight11. This is evident from 2min 25 seconds - 4min in the video below


http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=yjQmxS-DpyM

http://i34.tinypic.com/167ru6u.jpg

http://i34.tinypic.com/fctkdl.jpg


There is no gash until six seconds after impact.

Smoke does not obscure the gash. There is no gash. It's not there. Period.

Anyone interested in truth should get hold of the Naudet DVD and look for themselves. Buy it second hand of course, don't give these tossers any more money.


And while we are at it, let's remind ourselves of the second hit. Here in the penultimate frame we see the wings have already passed through the wall of the building but we see no hole and then..et voila.


http://www.acebaker.com/9-11/HealingColumns.gif

Edit: By the way, just had to comment on how ridiculously manipulative and arrogant (misplaced) the original post is.
To paraphrase - "Yeah, they are ok guys and all (insert a few names to attempt to marginalize), they just fell into the trap that's all (what a sweet, reasonable guy I am) but that IS the truth (that said, I KNOW what happened. Don't be foolish, don't challenging me, I know how it happened)"
Needless to say, my vote would be 'Mostly dis-agree (sic)' if the poll was still open.

[john white]

Hey john, what the biggest piece of info you've seen that destroys the ntp ?
Hmmm interesting question
I wouldnt over focus on any one peice of information: any single point of view can be argued against by anyone with a modicum of skill so saying "this single point proves it" is a bit of a noob thing to do truthseeking wise

Looking at the big picture, its a theory that postulates total control of every image and every witness. That in itself is an extraordinary proposition for an event with such an orgy of evidence. With an event with very little evidence, like the pentagon or shanksville, its easier to see that the presentation of that situation could be controled.

With thousands in New York gawping at the towers at the time of the second hit, especially the crowds from across the Hudson with excellent views (over those close up in manhatten), hundreds of cameras from all different angles and distances, and the images being utterly consistant every single time, NPT has an enourmous mountain to climb right from the start, and has to declare "LIAR! AGENT!" for every single person who witnessed events in New york. One single genuine image, one single genuine witness: its then all over for NPT. I'd say a lot of 9/11activists recognise this very swiftly, and the question then becomes "whats going on in the heads of those who dont?"

Then there are the troubling problems of creating the plane shaped damaged in the exterior of the towers and simulating the fireball without a plane to cause it (Thats a LOT of jet fuel to have stored up there ready and NO missile could produce a fuel fireball that massive)

Finally we can look at all the obvious frauds misclaims and misdirections, the refusal to take responsibility for those claims, the repitition of those claims inspite of compelling evidence demonstrating there falsity, and the general atagonistic attitude of the main movers and shakers (Judy Wood, Killtown Fred Webfairy etc etc) and we end up with a theory only fit for the bin pile
This needs some serious debunking JW, but I don't think there's a living soul that could actually challenge what you have just said! Sums the npt up lock stock and smoking barrels.

Challenge the info guys!:D

I guess Sid just managed to FAIL

I'll take the one point where he tried

Once again we are throwing a cute little party for Mr logic and Miss circular - "There were thousands of witnesses because there were planes".

NO Sid, its not circular reasoning

There is plenty of footage showing hundreds if not thousands watching events in Manhattan from across the river

That's not speculation, that's clearly evidenced fact: hundreds if not thousands DID see the second impact

Unless you wish to claim all those videos are faked too?

[sidlittle]

I guess Sid just managed to FAIL
Slightly childish one again. I see you edited it, in order to at least attempt to make a point ;)

There is plenty of footage showing hundreds if not thousands watching events in Manhattan from across the river

That's not speculation, that's clearly evidenced fact:
Don't have a problem with that
hundreds if not thousands DID see the second impact.
That's where we differ - the identity of that 'second impact'.

Can you link me to some of the videos please just in case I'm misinterpreting your point?
and I'll check them out a little later.

[john white]

Sid I'm not going to jump through any hoop of yours when you cant handle any hoop of mine: where's the dialogue?

Slightly childish one again. I see you edited it, in order to at least attempt to make a point

Absolute speculation. You dishonour yourself trying to pull this one

I can do and always will do whatever I like with my posts

And As for your desire to discover for yourself that YES there were hundreds if not thousands of eye witnesses the responsibility is on YOU to go and ascertain that for yourself. I could choose to help, but then you would reject the material. I think you know the actual reality there: despite your protests against recognising it.

Whatever. Not my problem, and my case does not require or compel me to go there

Unless I happen to want to at a particular instance

[sidlittle]

Slightly childish one again. I see you edited it, in order to at least attempt to make a point

Absolute speculation. You dishonour yourself trying to pull this one

Ok John, we are at a crossroads, are you telling me that your original post wasn't a sly little dig that consisted solely of " I guess Sid just managed to FAIL" ?

Are you telling me that in actual fact you didn't then edit your post to include your witness argument?
Are you suggesting I am lying?

[nessa felagund]

Yes, well, you may continue this in the rant room.

[sidlittle]

Yes, well, you may continue this in the rant room.

what on earth is the rant room ?! :)

shame..you have just stepped in on a defining moment :)

but it's your forum of course.. :)

[nessa felagund]

what on earth is the rant room ?! :)

shame..you have just stepped in on a defining moment :)

but it's your forum of course.. :)

Welcome to it--:)

Not sure what defining moment you were going for, but it looked like another name calling insultfest to me. :D

And, even though it is the rant room, that doesn't mean it's a free-for-all either. ;):)

[sidlittle]

Welcome to it--:)

Not sure what defining moment you were going for, but it looked like another name calling insultfest to me. :D

And, even though it is the rant room, that doesn't mean it's a free-for-all either. ;):)

:) no problem.

but I think John White and myself are sensible enough to carry on with a little decorum.

and humor me for a second. Let's say that this contentious topic of NPT is in fact reality..who is benefiting from repeated closures of threads due to 'disruption'?


ok..i' m pushing it..:)

[nessa felagund]

LOL--yes you are. Thank you for recognizing that. ;):)

[boots]

Quote JW.

Then there are the troubling problems of creating the plane shaped damaged in the exterior of the towers and simulating the fireball without a plane to cause it (Thats a LOT of jet fuel to have stored up there ready and NO missile could produce a fuel fireball that massive)

That fucks the NPT right there.

[sean]

I've put this back in the 911 forum.

Please keep abuse and insults out of this thread, otherwise a perfectly legitimate thread like this will end up being moved again to the Rant Room. Please also take the time to read the sticky thread at the top of the 911 forum regarding topics such as this.

[john white]

I've put this back in the 911 forum.

Please keep abuse and insults out of this thread, otherwise a perfectly legitimate thread like this will end up being moved again to the Rant Room. Please also take the time to read the sticky thread at the top of the 911 forum regarding topics such as this.

Cheers Sean

If that was the case (that a perfectly legitimate thread risked ending up in the rant room) I'd ask for the "illegitimate" comments to be deleted in order for the legitimate thread to remain:

Even if those comments were mine: I'm only human

[mynameis]

Weird the negatives are tied with the positive responses.

[crowd control]

i wonder if sean or any the mod squad could tell us david icke's position on npt. I've never heard him speak about it.

[banoyes]

David Icke posted September Clues in his headline 16 July

I think that makes his position clear

[limelady]

i wonder if sean or any the mod squad could tell us david icke's position on npt. I've never heard him speak about it.

To be honest I don't know David's latest thoughts on 9/11 debacle (planes, no planes etc) and maybe he doesn't wish to become embroiled in the debates that are on-going on this issue. If that's the case, who would blame him really? :eek:

However, I could ask him on the premier subscribers questions for David thread, and see if its something he might talk about in his next interview?

[crowd control]

could you please ask him does he believe in any or all aspects of either or both tv fakery and no plane theory. For a man hitherto so voiceferous and dedicated to raising awareness upon subjects such as this his choice to remain silent on this monumental deception seems odd.

[john white]

Weird the negatives are tied with the positive responses.

Only in the last day:)

Its almost as if a sudden influx of ID's has been used to try and skew the poll results

could you please ask him does he believe in any or all aspects of either or both tv fakery and no plane theory. For a man hitherto so voiceferous and dedicated to raising awareness upon subjects such as this his choice to remain silent on this monumental deception seems odd.

And if Ickes view of where the deception lies was the opposite of where you think it is: what then? Would he be an agent or a shill? Or would you respect his view being as you and others are so very keen to obtain it?

Its my view Icke has stayed out of this particular playpen of an issue because
HE AIN'T STUPID :)

[lightworks]

I thought you all might want to watch this to er...clarify a few matters which seem unclear
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=58h0LjdMry0

[banoyes]

To be honest I don't know David's latest thoughts on 9/11 debacle (planes, no planes etc) and maybe he doesn't wish to become embroiled in the debates that are on-going on this issue. If that's the case, who would blame him really? :eek:

However, I could ask him on the premier subscribers questions for David thread, and see if its something he might talk about in his next interview?

Are you saying Icke allows BS to be posted on HIS headlines??
Are you saying Icke would avoid controversy??

Everything leaves a trace

[crowd control]

John, in all honesty if it were to be the case that David was a "plane hugger" I would find it very difficult be convinced that he wasn't orginised resistance/ a gatekeeper.

I also think to suggest that he has stayed out of conversation in order not to be embroiled in arguments, stress or anything of the sort is ludicrous, it's not in the man's nature to go for the easy way out is it?

Or is it?

[crowd control]

hands up everybody who think these kinds of polls are a bit childish btw?

who cares how many agree or disagree, the truth is still the truth eh?

[stealth_0073]

hands up everybody who think these kinds of polls are a bit childish btw?

who cares how many agree or disagree, the truth is still the truth eh?

yes these polls are useless information.

and my comments were deleted from this topic talk about free speech
eh john!! did you get my post deleted.

[john white]

John, in all honesty if it were to be the case that David was a "plane hugger" I would find it very difficult be convinced that he wasn't orginised resistance/ a gatekeeper.

OK: well that's honest and I respect you for that


I also think to suggest that he has stayed out of conversation in order not to be embroiled in arguments, stress or anything of the sort is ludicrous, it's not in the man's nature to go for the easy way out is it?

Or is it?

But lets say Icke knows himself that he isn't a gatekeeper and isn't secretly "taking orders from "THEM"".

Wouldn't that give him a motivation not to needlessly challenge the beliefs of those who then would start to brief against him, if there is no good reason to do so and plenty else in the 9/11 story to find consensus in (such as : "Its an inside job!")

(no doubt with some pushing from various NPT personalities who've been quick to vilify others who may very well be genuine: Stephen Jones, David Ray Griffen, Willy Rodriguez because they are "plane huggers", a Killtownian phrase)

Not doing so has certainly worked for Icke so far: I wouldn't see that as cowardice, but as pragmatism

And I also wonder if its chaffs a bit for those who believe the "TV Fakery/Holograms/Space Beam Weapons" paradigm that the "Reptile Guy" hasn't endorsed their chosen reality? (at least to date)

hands up everybody who think these kinds of polls are a bit childish btw?

I do! Just a bit of fun, I certainly wouldn't take it seriously

who cares how many agree or disagree, the truth is still the truth eh?

For that very reason

and my comments were deleted from this topic talk about free speech
eh john!! did you get my post deleted.

Don't look at me mate, you could call me the biggest **** on planet earth and I wouldn't give a damn

Maybe it was something you posted?

[crowd control]

[QUOTE=john white;466431]OK: well that's honest and I respect you for that



thanks, too much nonsense is spend in flaming each other.



"Not doing so has certainly worked for Icke so far: I wouldn't see that as cowardice, but as pragmatism"



but what about

Cowardice asks the question - is it safe?
Expediency asks the question - is it politic?
Vanity asks the question - is it popular?
But conscience asks the question - is it right?
And there comes a time when one must take a position
that is neither safe, nor politic, nor popular;
but one must take it because it is right.




"And I also wonder if its chaffs a bit for those who believe the "TV Fakery/Holograms/Space Beam Weapons" paradigm that the "Reptile Guy" hasn't endorsed their chosen reality? (at least to date)"


Not because he's the reptile guy, but because he's David Icke, a man who has hitherto helped set countless minds free from the jail cells of their manipulated exsistance and given what I have learned of the man I am honestly thunderstruck as to his silence on the issue.


sorry about my poor quoting skills here

[banoyes]

"And I also wonder if its chaffs a bit for those who believe the "TV Fakery/Holograms/Space Beam Weapons" paradigm that the "Reptile Guy" hasn't endorsed their chosen reality?

Is something the matter with you ??
On July 16th David Ickes Headlines ( which David HIMSELF post on)
Wrote
"September Clues"
What was medias hand?"
Watch it here.

Got it???
And though some may try..some.. Holograms and or "Space Beams Weapons" do NOT figure into "no planes" OR TV Fakery"
perhaps a little research will help you ..try it

[john white]

sorry about my poor quoting skills here

no worries. And Martin Luther King is worth quoting


Cowardice asks the question - is it safe?
Expediency asks the question - is it politic?
Vanity asks the question - is it popular?
But conscience asks the question - is it right?
And there comes a time when one must take a position
that is neither safe, nor politic, nor popular;
but one must take it because it is right.

And that's where I'm at with NPT. I ask my conscience "is it right" and all my truthseeking experience says "No: It isn't". That being the case I can hardly back it in good conscience even if I felt it was a theory that would grab peoples attention and lead them to look at other stuff... which I don't

If I thought NPT was right I'd be a powerful campaigner for it, make no mistake

As it is, I see myself as a fair minded guy whose looked in depth at the evidence put forward and continually found it deficient, sometimes so deficient it stretches my credulity to consider it anything else than deliberately fraudulent. Fetzer himself has admitted this: here is a quote from Rick Seigal, hardly a man hostile to NPT per se:

http://www.911forum.org.uk/board/viewtopic.php?p=123532&highlight=#123532

If Fetzer says it is probably a distortion. The man lives the axiom "Even if true I would not say it."

Your problem is following pixel pickers and there is a problem there. Working with bogus evidence in the first place.

Fetzer has admitted to, and agrees, that altering evidence is okay as long as the agenda is "ours". Ours meaning the 911 truth as he may see it on any particular day - he wavers like a jello ball and has the backbone of a jelly fish.

When faced with a lie and a fraud Fetzer has called it a "retrospective fallacy," something you find out later is wrong. Because he has no problems altering reality to suit what he perceives (on any given day) to be truth his credo is a retrospective fallacy. He will accept lies as facts, pontificate on them and when proved to be a fraud he will call it a retrospective fallacy even though he may create the fraud. Surely the creator would understand they created a fraud?

Not really for Fetzer. Creating frauds to prove the truth is entirely acceptable. If space beams or hover craft are needed he can surely manufacture and conjure them up as reality.

Never hook your coat tails to a star.


MY conscience wont square with that: in the tradition and example OF Icke (whose opinion/potential opinion we are discussing here) I go where the evidence takes me: the REAL evidence

[john white]

Is something the matter with you ??
On July 16th David Ickes Headlines ( which David HIMSELF post on)
Wrote
"September Clues"
What was medias hand?"
Watch it here.

Got it???
And though some may try..some.. Holograms and or "Space Beams Weapons" do NOT figure into "no planes" OR TV Fakery"
perhaps a little research will help you ..try it

Well I get it: do YOU

For one thing its necessary to individually ascertain what individual NPT supporters accept and do not accept out of the box of chocolates NPT puts in front of them

Now are YOU, banoyes, indicating here that you DON'T agree with the Judy Wood camp about "energy weapons" bringing the towers down?

If so could you clearly state that? I wouldn't want to infer your point of view from lack of clarity

The holograms thing is old now and I would say that yes, that particular theory does seem to have lost popularity... but how do I know your not a dedicated Shaylerian? Of course it arose in the first place to try to explain how all the images from the impacts are so utterly consistent with each other... its lack of favour now (if you are telling me such a thing is the case) represents a step backwards, not forwards, for NPT because it is stuck in the need to fake every single image: otherwise its simply NOT true. One single genuine image = NPT dead theory: even if one or more images are shown to be fake (not that any have)

And I still maintain the most likely reason for that lonely link to "September Clues" appearing on Icke's headlines was as a favour to Justin/Belinda having just shelled out the £££ for Icke's election adventure

[banoyes]

no worries. And Martin Luther King is worth quoting

And that's where I'm at with NPT. I ask my conscience "is it right" and all my truthseeking experience says "No: It isn't". That being the case I can hardly back it in good conscience even if I felt it was a theory that would grab peoples attention and lead them to look at other stuff... which I don't

If I thought NPT was right I'd be a powerful campaigner for it, make no mistake

As it is, I see myself as a fair minded guy whose looked in depth at the evidence put forward and continually found it deficient, sometimes so deficient it stretches my credulity to consider it anything else than deliberately fraudulent. Fetzer himself has admitted this: here is a quote from Rick Seigal, hardly a man hostile to NPT per se:



MY conscience wont square with that: in the tradition and example OF Icke (whose opinion/potential opinion we are discussing here) I go where the evidence takes me: the REAL evidence

This guy just makes stuff up out of whole cloth ..read the link page he posted
His quote of Fetzer is just some yapping from another poster
Not an bit of citation ,, par for the course.
The supercilious journey into conscience is just an emotional gambit to try and establish good will for the "there were planes theory"

Time to end your ego trip and admit the truth about fake plans
and stop your side trips to nowheresville

"The Truth Will Set You Free"

[john white]

Yes Banoyes, I said Rick Seigal was not against NPT

I quoted him deliberately because there seemed little point giving you a quote from someone against NPT because you would immediately reject it

Fetzer's policies on "retrospective fallacy" ARE a matter of record... I can easily provide more quotation if necessary and I think you know that: and you are free to go challenge Seigal yourself if you believe he is speaking false about Fetzer

Why wont you deal with that?

Are you happy that people like Fetzer are at the heart of the NPT paradigm and embrace a philosophy of "making shit up" if it advances their purpose?

NPT will certainly fail if it cant clean its own house

If your convinced NPT is the truth, arn't you, in the words of Martin Luther King quoted by crowd control, obliged by your conscience to act?

[banoyes]

Forget it
These little side trips to nowhere
Here it is
ALL DOCUMENTED

Imposible flying skill of "pilots"
Impossible air speed of "planes'
Impossible entry into building
Different flight paths shown on TV
Videos with missing wings and other oddities
Wrong engine found on Church St.
"The airplane went entirely through the building"

Not once have these things been adressed by any "plane theory" person
They simply call names and avoid the evidence

The evidence is there .. your preponderance of words cannot erase it.

[mynameis]

Forget it
These little side trips to nowhere
Here it is
ALL DOCUMENTED

Imposible flying skill of "pilots"
Impossible air speed of "planes'
Impossible entry into building
Different flight paths shown on TV
Videos with missing wings and other oddities
Wrong engine found on Church St.
"The airplane went entirely through the building"

Not once have these things been adressed by any "plane theory" person
They simply call names and avoid the evidence

The evidence is there .. your preponderance of words cannot erase it.

1.) They were trained at flight schools, simulators, and military bases most likely.

2.) Air speeds are only guidelines set by the FAA. There are also testimonies from aerospace engineers and stunt pilots have already stated that an airspeed of 500-600 mph by any of those aircraft is possible for the altitude.

3.) Different flight paths is an excuse as the planes are shot from different approach angles. You have to triangulate the position of the camera and then triangulate the flight path using six reference points in time to be accurate of the flight paths.

4.) There are no oddities other than the physical limitations on the speed capture of photographic equipment. See Rods.

5.) Wrong engine does not discount the fact that plane parts and engine parts were found and engines do wear out. Though if replaced there is no conclusive evidence that these parts were from either aircraft in NYC or D.C. and Shankesville.

6.) Inertia and Newton's Laws at the speed the planes were traveling indicate mathematical certainty that there was sufficient force for how the aircraft impacted the buildings and what is observed.

7.) I have addressed these before, but you fail to do any research.

8.) NPT = No preponderance of evidence.

[banoyes]

1.) They were trained at flight schools, simulators, and military bases most likely.

2.) Air speeds are only guidelines set by the FAA. There are also testimonies from aerospace engineers and stunt pilots have already stated that an airspeed of 500-600 mph by any of those aircraft is possible for the altitude.

3.) Different flight paths is an excuse as the planes are shot from different approach angles. You have to triangulate the position of the camera and then triangulate the flight path using six reference points in time to be accurate of the flight paths.

4.) There are no oddities other than the physical limitations on the speed capture of photographic equipment. See Rods.

5.) Wrong engine does not discount the fact that plane parts and engine parts were found and engines do wear out. Though if replaced there is no conclusive evidence that these parts were from either aircraft in NYC or D.C. and Shankesville.

6.) Inertia and Newton's Laws at the speed the planes were traveling indicate mathematical certainty that there was sufficient force for how the aircraft impacted the buildings and what is observed.

7.) I have addressed these before, but you fail to do any research.

8.) NPT = No preponderance of evidence.

Ok
You go tell a commerical pilot that a few hours traing in Cesna type air craft is all you need to fly and navigate the 767 and these guys did it first time out
Pilots for 911 Truth say this is impossible.
but
you did your research and say they are wrong

They are not guideline geeezzee the aircraft cannot attain that airspeed. It is physically impossible

Why not show me ONE reference where a qualified pilot says ..sure anyone can do this
just take a few hours training in a Cesna .. nothing to it.
You can't because they do not exist.

The rest of your "research" is as valuless as this
You are not seeking the truth
you are simply defending the defensless "Offical Story"

Any open minded person, when shown the evidence will conclude
There were no planes involved in hitting the towers
Why you can't see it and why you post such trite defense
One can only guess

[mynameis]

Ok
You go tell a commerical pilot that a few hours traing in Cesna type air craft is all you need to fly and navigate the 767 and these guys did it first time out
Pilots for 911 Truth say this is impossible.
but
you did your research and say they are wrong

They are not guideline geeezzee the aircraft cannot attain that airspeed. It is physically impossible

Why not show me ONE reference where a qualified pilot says ..sure anyone can do this
just take a few hours training in a Cesna .. nothing to it.
You can't because they do not exist.

The rest of your "research" is as valuless as this
You are not seeking the truth
you are simply defending the defensless "Offical Story"

Any open minded person, when shown the evidence will conclude
There were no planes involved in hitting the towers
Why you can't see it and why you post such trite defense
One can only guess

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlHpKTq71zE

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-tVBCX8yDQ

[banoyes]

I have reach the point where I realize the futility of arguement with people who have something to protect and defend,

The good thing is, the fact no planes hit the towers ,is the predominant thought amoung researchers and truth seekers.

Those defending airplanes are of little value in this process
basiclly because they deny evidence.

I have no need to butt heads with butt heads.
Thanks for a swell time.

[mynameis]

I have reach the point where I realize the futility of arguement with people who have something to protect and defend,

The good thing is, the fact no planes hit the towers ,is the predominant thought amoung researchers and truth seekers.

Those defending airplanes are of little value in this process
basiclly because they deny evidence.

I have no need to butt heads with butt heads.
Thanks for a swell time.

:rolleyes:

Buh-bye.

[john white]

Yes Banoyes, I said Rick Seigal was not against NPT

I quoted him deliberately because there seemed little point giving you a quote from someone against NPT because you would immediately reject it

Fetzer's policies on "retrospective fallacy" ARE a matter of record... I can easily provide more quotation if necessary and I think you know that: and you are free to go challenge Seigal yourself if you believe he is speaking false about Fetzer

Why wont you deal with that?

Are you happy that people like Fetzer are at the heart of the NPT paradigm and embrace a philosophy of "making shit up" if it advances their purpose?

NPT will certainly fail if it cant clean its own house

If your convinced NPT is the truth, arn't you, in the words of Martin Luther King quoted by crowd control, obliged by your conscience to act?

Forget it...

....The evidence is there .. your preponderance of words cannot erase it

It seems to me you can't handle the truth in my words, and your attempts to avoid addressing them cannot hide that

[stealth_0073]

Now are YOU, banoyes, indicating here that you DON'T agree with the Judy Wood camp about "energy weapons" bringing the towers down?

i believe in energy beams cause i can see them in ricks video
but as for the other stuff judy is talking about, its a bit far fetched
the hurricane Erin stuff.


The holograms thing is old now and I would say that yes, that particular theory does seem to have lost popularity

Totally agree with you their, the live hologram theory is bullshit
since the videos all have different flight paths.


NPT because it is stuck in the need to fake every single image: otherwise its simply NOT true. One single genuine image = NPT dead theory: even if one or more images are shown to be fake (not that any have)

Yes until that image appears its very unlikely that any are real
mabaye in 5 years time they will bring out a new spectacular cgi just to
implant into the already brainwashed public.

we already have seen a few new videos come out since 911, but
their very poor fakes problay been outsourced to Pakistan cgi team. :D

[stealth_0073]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WlHpKTq71zE

why do you lie mynamesis it clearly says in the description the plane is
going 250 mph and i can remember somebody posted this on break for news
because he was a planehuger next thing you no he has a video from 2006
with links to United Airlines Flight 175 Witness Reactions tina cart shill
The one who took the bluescreen video on 911 that day.

you people are getting desperate 450 mph my arse, any dummy can see that plane ain't
going 450mph more like 200 mph also its on a wide open space try flying that around high
rise buildings the wings would fall of.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-tVBCX8yDQ[/QUOTE]


now your becoming boring, another plane that ain't doing anywhere near 350mph also its on a
wide open space try flying that around high rise buildings the wings would fall of. turbulence
air pressure around structures, luggage, passengers etc.


http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=3FsIZpHRIjs&feature=related

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=QHZY0-XUmMA&feature=related

[mynameis]

why do you lie mynamesis it clearly says in the description the plane is
going 250 mph and i can remember somebody posted this on break for news
because he was a planehuger next thing you no he has a video from 2006
with links to United Airlines Flight 175 Witness Reactions tina cart shill
The one who took the bluescreen video on 911 that day.

you people are getting desperate 450 mph my arse, any dummy can see that plane ain't
going 450mph more like 200 mph also its on a wide open space try flying that around high
rise buildings the wings would fall of.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A-tVBCX8yDQ


now your becoming boring, another plane that ain't doing anywhere near 350mph also its on a
wide open space try flying that around high rise buildings the wings would fall of. turbulence
air pressure around structures, luggage, passengers etc.


http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=3FsIZpHRIjs&feature=related

http://uk.youtube.com/watch?v=QHZY0-XUmMA&feature=related

You can clock this yourself. Take two fixed points and measure the speed. It's not that hard. Oh and another thing weren't flying around buildings. There is not turbulence or air pressure cousin.

[banoyes]

The fact is the Elite Atrocity foresaw the 911 truth movement
They set up site with 911 truth as its' meme
they have people working for them who's
job is to post dis-information,disrupt the flow,run the sites

you would have to to infantile naive to not know
there are people as such this on this site

just look at the "no plane" discussion
This is not just innocent ignorance
I have seen the same paterns before
look at The "no plane" discussion
see the "tells" (name calling,words with no backing,lies said as truth)
swarmy arrogance, claiming what is not yours to claim)

They are all there ,a neon sign to the aware

[christophera]

The fact is the Elite Atrocity foresaw the 911 truth movement
They set up site with 911 truth as its' meme
they have people working for them who's
job is to post dis-information,disrupt the flow,run the sites

you would have to to infantile naive to not know
there are people as such this on this site

just look at the "no plane" discussion
This is not just innocent ignorance
I have seen the same paterns before
look at The "no plane" discussion
see the "tells" (name calling,words with no backing,lies said as truth)
swarmy arrogance, claiming what is not yours to claim)

They are all there, a neon sign to the aware

Absolutely right on!

I feel it is very possible that MKultra created the mentality that cannot use reason and is compelled to continue despite the fact.

[nessa felagund]

I have deleted the last four insulting posts in an attempt to save this from the rant room. If you can't argue without insulting each other, then take a break and walk away for a little while.

Enough is enough.

[onourwayto2012]

banoyes.... I'm sure you realize that jw and mni will always get the last word in....... I personally haven't read anything they have said to believe their stance and while I can't say NPT is 100% correct I can definitely see LOTS of things that don't add up. Still haven't heard a convincing case for how the plane could slice into the building like a knife in butter. Too bad someone didn't have the $$ and resources to re-enact this with a plane and a building..... if the plane slides right thru without a bit of debris then I accept the plane story...... then if the building collapses in 8-10 secs I buy the fuel story...... etc.......

[mynameis]

Someone dug this beaut up.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EHfQfzrZki0

[sidlittle]

Only in the last day:)
And if Ickes view of where the deception lies was the opposite of where you think it is: what then? Would he be an agent or a shill? Or would you respect his view being as you and others are so very keen to obtain it

actually Mr White,i'm with you on this. I could not give a toss what icke thinks about this subject.

However, I do think icke is reluctant to split his market.

[banoyes]

actually Mr White,i'm with you on this. I could not give a toss what icke thinks about this subject.

However, I do think icke is reluctant to split his market.

Say
David Icke posted September Clues
all your foolish conjecture can't erase that
"split his market" a little sideways aspersion to MR Ickes' character
because that all they have name calling and conjecture
What a crew

[sidlittle]

Say
David Icke posted September Clues
all your foolish conjecture can't erase that
"split his market" a little sideways aspersion to MR Ickes' character
because that all they have name calling and conjecture
What a crew

Sorry, I'm an Icke 'fan' but I do believe he is reluctant to readdress his ideas. He has referred to 'remote controlled planes' in a few books, even if he feels now NPT is reality, I would be surprised if he voiced it now.

I doubt Icke is responsible for his headlines page.

Perhaps Banoyes, you would be wise not to leap before you post.

[banoyes]

David Icke posts on his Headlines
This is verified by the moderators of this site
Perhaps you should check for facts

[sidlittle]

David Icke posts on his Headlines
This is verified by the moderators of this site
Perhaps you should check for facts

well, whatever. I doubt it's that important. I recognize he comments on certain headlines. I doubt he is responsible for all the headlines added however.
Try not to have any heroes in life mate.

[banoyes]

well, whatever. I doubt it's that important. I recognize he comments on certain headlines. I doubt he is responsible for all the headlines added however.
Try not to have any heroes in life mate.
doubt,doubt,doubt
My hero is truth
not conjecture
not belief
so save your swarmy advice
and
do try to know what you're talking about......mate
well what ever
LOL

[sidlittle]

yes, how deep.

You see mate, I'm an' NPT'ist' . Have been for a long while now. What you have done is pick up on the fact that I dared to agree with John White on one (insignificant) point and jumped way ahead of yourself. It's quite silly really!

Anyway, I stand my my original point- I don't think Icke would want to split his market. It makes no commercial sense and I am not knocking him for it at all.

[banoyes]

yes, how deep.

You see mate, I'm an' NPT'ist' . Have been for a long while now. What you have done is pick up on the fact that I dared to agree with John White on one (insignificant) point and jumped way ahead of yourself. It's quite silly really!

Anyway, I stand my my original point- I don't think Icke would want to split his market. It makes no commercial sense and I am not knocking him for it at all.
Not even close , Mr Know It All
What it is a a degragation of no plane fact
and an insult to a major researcher who had
the courage to post September Clues
You just made up stuff (lied) and expect people to accept it
Well ain't you special

[limelady]

Come on guys, there's really no need to get into this. Lets face it, none of us really know what David's views are right now as he hasn't shared them, and the 'why' of this is not really any of our business.

David has never been backward in coming forward, so it is possible he still hasn't made up his mind about NPT, and when (if) he does, and when (if) he is good and ready, I'm sure he will share his views.

Also, David's news headline page contains a lot of information he puts there for people to make up their own minds about, so to try and figure out his motivations for anything by what he posts on his news page can only be considered speculation on our part at best.... unless of course he makes a definite commentary otherwise.

Best not to venture down that path as its really quite fruitless.

[christophera]

Come on guys, there's really no need to get into this. Lets face it, none of us really know what David's views are right now as he hasn't shared them, and the 'why' of this is not really any of our business.

David has never been backward in coming forward, so it is possible he still hasn't made up his mind about NPT, and when (if) he does, and when (if) he is good and ready, I'm sure he will share his views.

Also, David's news headline page contains a lot of information he puts there for people to make up their own minds about, so to try and figure out his motivations for anything by what he posts on his news page can only be considered speculation on our part at best.... unless of course he makes a definite commentary otherwise.

Best not to venture down that path as its really quite fruitless.

The NPT issue is properly forgotten because planes had nothing to do with 3 towers coming down.

WHAT happened is most important. WHAT happened was not a collapse, but, ........ what was it? How does a strcuture like that get to the ground at near free fall.

WELL, exactly what kind of structure was it? This, ........ is ........... the ......... first order of information that is needed.

[christophera]

Disinformation can be executed in a number of ways. To establish misinformation pre emptively is a very good method because the end conclusion never has a preliminary basis which can be logically structured.

Such as the fact that steel cannot be easily cut with high explosives to fall freely. If the people who believed in demolition also believed that the towers core was comprised of steel core columns, they would be absolutely without anyway to explain free fall within the event witnessed.

Such is the exact situation whereupon the generalities put forth as explanation have become ridiculed. Those who might believe in an "inside job" reject the notion making successful disinformation.

[mynameis]

Just a courtesy bump...

[banoyes]

Sorry, I'm an Icke 'fan' but I do believe he is reluctant to readdress his ideas. He has referred to 'remote controlled planes' in a few books, even if he feels now NPT is reality, I would be surprised if he voiced it now.

I doubt Icke is responsible for his headlines page.

Perhaps Banoyes, you would be wise not to leap before you post.

Icke posts on his headline page...confirmed by moderators
Wise??
hhmm
everything you wrote is wrong or suposition
Perhaps you should find a new spot for your head

[christophera]

Icke posts on his headline page...confirmed by moderators
Wise??
hhmm
everything you wrote is wrong or suposition
Perhaps you should find a new spot for your head

I think Icke is a wise man that considers things with an open mind, then if such consideration appears to be satisfactory for adopting or abandoning concepts, he does so and depending on the socio/psychological environemtn he either supports them verbally or is silent.

[banoyes]

I think Icke is a wise man that considers things with an open mind, then if such consideration appears to be satisfactory for adopting or abandoning concepts, he does so and depending on the socio/psychological environemtn he either supports them verbally or is silent.
More supposition, Must be a trait.

[christophera]

More supposition, Must be a trait.

Logic can be a trait I suppose.

[christophera]

The NPT issue is properly forgotten because planes had nothing to do with 3 towers coming down.

WHAT happened is most important. WHAT happened was not a collapse, but, ........ what was it? How does a strcuture like that get to the ground at near free fall.

WELL, exactly what kind of structure was it? This, ........ is ........... the ......... first order of information that is needed.

Accordingly, the fake plans being distributed by the quasi leadership of the truth movement WITHOUT notation of the issues of

Legibilty-The plans dimensions cannot be read.

Incompleteness-The entire detail of structural core bracing is missing as well as elevator details.

AND, the matter of the faked revision tables and THESE graphic anomalies has not been addressed by those distributing the plans from silverstein


http://algoxy.com/psych/planimages/wtc1rev.tabAA-139.jpg
http://algoxy.com/psych/planimages/A-A-159.revtab.jpg
http://algoxy.com/psych/planimages/gwtc1rev.tab99.anoma.gif
http://algoxy.com/psych/planimages/gwtc1rev.tab141.anoma.DBL.gif
http://algoxy.com/psych/planimages/gwtc1rev.tab140.anoma.gif
http://algoxy.com/psych/planimages/gwtc1rev.tab139.anoma.gif

richard gage has been shown these on his hard copy plans in San Luis Obispo on May 3rd 2008 and has not made a note at his link to the plans which are here. BTW notice that the high resolution and original links no longer have larger images. They are trying to prevent your seeing the digital anomalies as they have learned that people are beginning to access the plans and see the anomalies and realize the plans are faked.

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/plans/table.html

[christophera]

Please access that link to the plans and determine that all of the images are of the same resolution when the link text says that they go from low to original sizes.

It is important for truthseekers to examine ANY altered evidence or supposed evidence or it's presentation. Visit the link and then return here to post a description of what you saw there.

[christophera]

Please access that link to the plans and determine that all of the images are of the same resolution when the link text says that they go from low to original sizes.

It is important for truthseekers to examine ANY altered evidence or supposed evidence or it's presentation. Visit the link and then return here to post a description of what you saw there.

I've determined that there is another route to the high res scans of the silverstein plans.

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/plans/frames.html

[christophera]

I've determined that there is another route to the high res scans of the silverstein plans.

http://911research.wtc7.net/wtc/evidence/plans/frames.html

This is a real issue that can be substantiated with a few clicks but the truthers here seem more involved with fantasy and un evidenced, illogical assertions that there were no planes at the WTC.

What is with that?

[christophera]

What is with this behavior of accepting a completely illogical set of actions within the act of murdering thousands under intense scrutiny and ACCEPTING that the murderers intentionally created the perception of a backwards sequence of plane impact and tower fall?

The NPTists need to produce SOME reasoning for the perps to do that.