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logos880
19-04-2012, 09:51 PM
The parallels of the pagan christs that prefigured the one true Christ, Jesus, abound here on the DI forum. these parallels seem to be a source of conflict amongst us. so let's shake hands, find our common ground, and understand where these similarities come from and why these similarities should be a source of fellowship rather than a source of strife. :)

‘A True Myth’

To begin, it is helpful to understand something about Tolkien’s view of myth. Many of his contemporaries agreed with anthropologist Sir James George Frazer, who expressed in his seminal work on mythology, The Golden Bough (1922), his view that myths were simply stories that the ancients had made up to understand themselves and the world around them better. When writing of Christianity, Frazer made the point that many civilizations, both pre- and post-Christian, had myths about a god who dies and comes back to life, and about a king who must be killed for the good of everyone else (308-30, 680-6). Frazer’s contemporary Robert Graves restates Frazer’s view thus: “What [Frazer] was saying-not-saying was that Christian legend, dogma, and ritual are the refinement of a great body of primitive and barbarous beliefs” (Graves 242; see also Hooper, 184-185, and Lewis 1994, 122-3).

Tolkien’s view was just the opposite. Beginning with the presumption that God was more than a figment of the imagination, he saw myth as one of God’s most profound ways of communicating with human beings. In an article tracing the connections between Tolkien and his fellow Catholic G. K. Chesterton, who wrote at about the same time as Frazer, Thomas M. Egan observes,

Medieval philosophers accepted the unity of all aspects of Truth, assuming a hierarchy of pre-Christian values which implicitly embodied Christian beliefs. Pagan philosophies were seen as prefigurements of teachings of the Church. . . . Chesterton’s views anticipate those of Tolkien, particularly in The Everlasting Man [published in 1925]. Here he explores the universal nature of myth and notes how the major threads of pagan mythology finally come true in the Christian story: the stories of virgin births of gods come true in the Virgin Mary and the Incarnation; the death-and-rebirth fertility cults come true in the Resurrection of Christ; human sacrifice becomes Christ’s sacrifice. (46-48; see also Zimbardo 134 and Pearce 161-2)

In a 1931 letter, Tolkien’s friend C. S. Lewis (not a Christian at the time) describes a conversation with Tolkien and their friend Hugo Dyson about the significance of myths, in which the two men explained their belief that

The story of Christ is simply a true myth: a myth working on us in the same way as the others, but with this tremendous difference that it really happened. . . . The Pagan stories are God expressing Himself through the minds of poets, using such images as He found there, while Christianity is God expressing Himself through what we call ‘real things.’ (Lewis 1988, 288-289, emphasis in original)

So Tolkien saw a clear connection between the Christian faith he believed and the mythology that had long fascinated him. Everything was part of the same universal pattern, the pagan myths a precursor of the “true myth,” preparing human minds for the advent of Christ.

Tolkien biographer Humphrey Carpenter, recounting the same conversation, further explores Tolkien’s point of view and its effect on Tolkien’s writing.

No, said Tolkien. [Myths] are not lies. . . .
Man is not ultimately a liar. He may pervert his thought into lies, but he comes from God, and it is from God that he draws his ultimate ideals . . . Not merely the abstract thoughts of man but also his imaginative inventions must originate with God, and in consequence reflect something of eternal truth. In making a myth, in practicing ‘mythopeia’ and peopling the world with elves and dragons and goblins, a story-teller . . . is actually fulfilling God’s purpose, and reflecting a splintered fragment of the true light. (Quoted in Gunton 130)

According to these sources, in writing The Lord of the Rings, Tolkien saw himself doing more than just telling a fairy tale or building on an ancient legend—in his own view, he was communicating fundamental truths. Although his story was set in a “world of virtuous pre-Christian monotheism” (O’Hehir part 2, par. 9), he would later write to a friend,

The Lord of the Rings is of course a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously of course, but consciously in the revision. That is why I have not put in, or have cut out, practically all references to anything like ‘religion’, to cults or practices, in the imaginary world. For the religious element is absorbed into the story and the symbolism. (2000, 172)

It makes sense, then, to study Tolkien’s unlikely hero as a Christian hero. Yet many critics—both those who have studied the Christian elements of the tale and those who have concentrated on other aspects—have been struck by the dissimilarities between Frodo and the traditional Christian hero. They have often gone so far as to set up another character as the hero. Yet in doing so, they are overlooking other key elements in the character and in the story, leading to an incomplete understanding of Frodo and a failure to realize the extent of the influence of his creator’s Christian ideals on his characterization. Among these elements are his humility, the nature of his quest, the mercy he shows to others, his fight against temptation—and, paradoxically, even his failure at the climax of the story.

http://www.cslewis.org/journal/humble-heroism-frodo-baggins-as-christian-hero-in-the-lord-of-the-rings/

You call a tree a tree, [Tolkien said to C.S. Lewis], and you think nothing more of the word. But it was not a ‘tree’ until someone gave it that name. You call a star a star, and say it is just a ball of matter moving on a mathematical course. But that is merely how you see it. By so naming things and describing them you are only inventing your own terms about them. And just as speech is invention about objects and ideas, so myth is invention about truth.

We have come from God (continued Tolkien), and inevitably the myths woven by us, though they contain error, will also reflect a splintered fragment of the true light, the eternal truth that is with God. Indeed only by myth-making, only by becoming a ‘sub-creator’ and inventing stories, can Man aspire to the state of perfection that he knew before the Fall. Our myths may be misguided, but they steer however shakily towards the true harbour, while materialistic ‘progress’ leads only to a yawning abyss and the Iron Crown of the power of evil….

You mean, asked Lewis, that the story of Christ is simply a true myth, a myth that works on us in the same way as the others, but a myth that really happened? In that case, he said, I begin to understand.

http://www.fireandknowledge.org/archives/2005/12/05/the-story-of-christ-is-simply-a-true-myth/

...discuss.

that one guy
19-04-2012, 10:17 PM
The story of Christ is simply a true myth: a myth working on us in the same way as the others, but with this tremendous difference that it really happened. . . . The Pagan stories are God expressing Himself through the minds of poets, using such images as He found there, while Christianity is God expressing Himself through what we call ‘real things.’ (Lewis 1988, 288-289, emphasis in original)

I've heard it a lot: all Pagan myths are actually based off of Christian myths. This just inverts the argument that all Christian myths are based off of all Pagan myths.

...discuss.

I was disappointed that neither Tolkien nor C.S. Lewis--both being fantastic authors--were unable to provide evidence to support Pagan myths being based off of Christian myths.

This thread ultimately seemed more aimed at other Christians already in agreement, while the first part of your post suggested that everyone of all beliefs were going be blown away.

While I wasn't blown away, I can finally agree that many myths are probably based on true human history (whatever that turns out to be) and that many symbols you see today are usually just recycled from the previous eras.

vizier
19-04-2012, 10:22 PM
I think a lot of the things in the Bible or books like Odessey or the Iliad are mythological stories that have been passed down by word of mouth from father/mother to son/daughter since the dawn of the human race.

logos880
19-04-2012, 11:33 PM
I've heard it a lot: all Pagan myths are actually based off of Christian myths. This just inverts the argument that all Christian myths are based off of all Pagan myths.

not exactly. tolkien and lewis both believed that myth, at it's best, is G-d inspired. over time, men, through poets mainly, have received glimpses of a fundamental truth from G-d communicated via inspiration through the human imagination. this is why we see foreshadowing of the story of Jesus Christ in mythology throughout time and space in human history.

I was disappointed that neither Tolkien nor C.S. Lewis--both being fantastic authors--were unable to provide evidence to support Pagan myths being based off of Christian myths.

This thread ultimately seemed more aimed at other Christians already in agreement, while the first part of your post suggested that everyone of all beliefs were going be blown away.

While I wasn't blown away, I can finally agree that many myths are probably based on true human history (whatever that turns out to be) and that many symbols you see today are usually just recycled from the previous eras.

I'm not trying to say that pagan myths are based on christian myths, but that all mythology, at it's best, is inspired by the Creator, hence the similarities.

for the christians, this means that there is nothing to be threatened by in pagan mythology.

for the pagans, this means that christians and pagans are united myth. :)

logos880
19-04-2012, 11:34 PM
I think a lot of the things in the Bible or books like Odessey or the Iliad are mythological stories that have been passed down by word of mouth from father/mother to son/daughter since the dawn of the human race.

yes, definitely. :)

vizier
19-04-2012, 11:37 PM
To begin, it is helpful to understand something about Tolkien’s view of myth. Many of his contemporaries agreed with anthropologist Sir James George Frazer, who expressed in his seminal work on mythology, The Golden Bough (1922), his view that myths were simply stories that the ancients had made up to understand themselves and the world around them better. When writing of Christianity, Frazer made the point that many civilizations, both pre- and post-Christian, had myths about a god who dies and comes back to life, and about a king who must be killed for the good of everyone else (308-30, 680-6). Frazer’s contemporary Robert Graves restates Frazer’s view thus: “What [Frazer] was saying-not-saying was that Christian legend, dogma, and ritual are the refinement of a great body of primitive and barbarous beliefs” (Graves 242; see also Hooper, 184-185, and Lewis 1994, 122-3).

I tend to veer towards Frazer and Graves' position on this.

logos880
19-04-2012, 11:45 PM
I tend to veer towards Frazer and Graves' position on this.

on an intellectual level, I agree with frazer however I think that if we remove the supernatural aspect of mythology we effectively neuter it.

The Golden Bough attempts to define the shared elements of religious belief to scientific thought, discussing fertility rites, human sacrifice, the dying god, the scapegoat and many other symbols and practices which have influenced the 20th century.[2] Its thesis is that old religions were fertility cults that revolved around the worship of, and periodic sacrifice of, a sacred king. Specifically, that man progresses from magic through religious belief to scientific thought.[3]

This thesis was concocted around Turner's picture of The Golden Bough, a sacred grove where there grew a certain tree that grew day and night; a transfigured landscape in a dream-like vision of the little wood-land lake of Nemi -- "Diana's Mirror" where religious ceremonies and the "fulfillment of vows" of priests and kings were held.[4]

This king was the incarnation of a dying and reviving god, a solar deity who underwent a mystic marriage to a goddess of the Earth, who died at the harvest, and was reincarnated in the spring. Frazer claims that this legend is central to almost all of the world's mythologies.
The Judgement of Paris - an Etruscan bronze-handled mirror of the fourth or third century BC that relates the often misunderstood myth as interpreted by Frazer, showing the three goddesses giving their apple or pomegranate to the new king who must kill the old king - Campana Collection, Greek, Etruscan and Roman Antiquities, Sully

The germ for Frazer's thesis was the pre-Roman priest-king at the fane of Nemi, who was murdered ritually by his successor:

"When I first put pen to paper to write The Golden Bough I had no conception of the magnitude of the voyage on which I was embarking; I thought only to explain a single rule of an ancient Italian priesthood." (Aftermath p vi)

The book's title was taken from an incident in the Aeneid, illustrated by the British artist Joseph Mallord William Turner: Aeneas and the Sibyl present the golden bough to the gatekeeper of Hades in order to gain admission.

logos880
20-04-2012, 12:56 AM
True Myth

"Now as myth transcends thought, Incarnation transcends myth. The heart of Christianity is a myth which is also a fact. The old myth of the Dying God, without ceasing to be a myth, comes down from the heaven of legend and imagination to the earth of history. It happens--at a particular date, in a particular place, followed by definable historical consequences. We pass from Balder and Osiris, dying nobody knows when or where, to a historical Person crucified (it is all in order) under Pontius Pilate

. By becoming fact it does not cease to be myth: that is the miracle."

Read more: http://www.beliefnet.com/Entertainment/Books/2001/04/From-Myth-Became-Fact.aspx#ixzz1sX9ed1pq

william68
20-04-2012, 11:09 AM
The "True Christ" would be Lord Osiris. We got the yahweh cult ripoff:

"There were a number of Jewish brotherhoods, several of whom believed that they were "God's elect" and that salvation would come through them. Their principle agent of salvation (yesha) was the Messiah (Christos), and in the Jewish communities influenced by the Greek culture ("Hellenized") this messiah was depicted not as a warrior but as a spiritual and mystical entity. In this way not only would the Romans and Greeks themselves be overthrown but so too would be their Gods, replaced by the Jewish tribal god Yahweh…These various Jewish sects were intent on creating a philosophy or religion that would manipulate the Gentiles into the "monotheism" of Judaism and away from "idolatry," or polytheism, with the awareness that those who held the keys to a monotheistic god would dominate in religion and culture in general. One group of these "Jews by Birth"….was that of the Alexandrian Therapeuts......

Like his earlier incarnation Osiris, Serapis was called not only Christos but also Chrestos, centuries before the common era. Indeed, Osiris was styled Chrestus long before his Jewish copycat Jesus was ever conceived."
- Acharya S "Suns of God"

ferryman to the dead
20-04-2012, 11:36 AM
not exactly. tolkien and lewis both believed that myth, at it's best, is G-d inspired. over time, men, through poets mainly, have received glimpses of a fundamental truth from G-d communicated via inspiration through the human imagination. this is why we see foreshadowing of the story of Jesus Christ in mythology throughout time and space in human history.



I'm not trying to say that pagan myths are based on christian myths, but that all mythology, at it's best, is inspired by the Creator, hence the similarities.

for the christians, this means that there is nothing to be threatened by in pagan mythology.

for the pagans, this means that christians and pagans are united myth. :)

is inspired by the Creator, hence the similarities.

Assumption. As usual.

this is why we see foreshadowing of the story of Jesus Christ in mythology throughout time and space in human history.


Duh, hate to break it to you but Paganism is older that sheeple-ianity sorry.

Pagan beliefs existed long before monotheistic doctrines. There were thousands of ancient Pagan cultures throughout the ancient world with evidence surviving today that predates recorded history. They were based on animals, stars, trees, fertility rites, lunar cycles, solar cycles, etc. Many were female based and all were pantheistic. The coming of Christianity brought with it a major effort to wipe out those ancient religious worship systems. Simple research will reveal an overlay of Christian holy days on Pagan holy days in order to mask their original Pagan significance.

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Which_religion_is_older_-_wicca_or_Christianity

Don't try to justify cloud boy with Paganism it won't work....more than enough evidence has been posted throughout this forum that CAST a HUGE doubt as to the existence of this MYTH.....the only thing this MYTH has done is rob people blind and given Pulpit Pimps fine cars and nice homes.

drakul
20-04-2012, 11:44 AM
The "True Christ" would be Lord Osiris. We got the yahweh cult ripoff:

"There were a number of Jewish brotherhoods, several of whom believed that they were "God's elect" and that salvation would come through them. Their principle agent of salvation (yesha) was the Messiah (Christos), and in the Jewish communities influenced by the Greek culture ("Hellenized") this messiah was depicted not as a warrior but as a spiritual and mystical entity. In this way not only would the Romans and Greeks themselves be overthrown but so too would be their Gods, replaced by the Jewish tribal god Yahweh…These various Jewish sects were intent on creating a philosophy or religion that would manipulate the Gentiles into the "monotheism" of Judaism and away from "idolatry," or polytheism, with the awareness that those who held the keys to a monotheistic god would dominate in religion and culture in general. One group of these "Jews by Birth"….was that of the Alexandrian Therapeuts......

Like his earlier incarnation Osiris, Serapis was called not only Christos but also Chrestos, centuries before the common era. Indeed, Osiris was styled Chrestus long before his Jewish copycat Jesus was ever conceived."
- Acharya S "Suns of God"

I have `Acvharya's book, The Greatest Story Ever Sold. She mixes alot of lies in with truth. Really blatant provable lies. For example Acharya claims that the Egyptian God Horus was crucified. The Egyptians left MILLIONS of artifacts behind. Millions. And not one depiction or writing about a crucified Horus. Acharya counts on the ignorance and naivity of others to push her Masonic agenda.

Acharya is heavily influenced, if not a member of the Freemasons (yes women have their own Masonic order - Order of the Eastern Star). In her book Acharya sings the praises of such infamous 33 degree Freemasons as Albert Pike, whom David Icke credits with instigating the US Civil War in which 250,000 people died.

logos880
20-04-2012, 08:20 PM
The "True Christ" would be Lord Osiris. We got the yahweh cult ripoff:

"There were a number of Jewish brotherhoods, several of whom believed that they were "God's elect" and that salvation would come through them. Their principle agent of salvation (yesha) was the Messiah (Christos), and in the Jewish communities influenced by the Greek culture ("Hellenized") this messiah was depicted not as a warrior but as a spiritual and mystical entity. In this way not only would the Romans and Greeks themselves be overthrown but so too would be their Gods, replaced by the Jewish tribal god Yahweh…These various Jewish sects were intent on creating a philosophy or religion that would manipulate the Gentiles into the "monotheism" of Judaism and away from "idolatry," or polytheism, with the awareness that those who held the keys to a monotheistic god would dominate in religion and culture in general. One group of these "Jews by Birth"….was that of the Alexandrian Therapeuts......

Like his earlier incarnation Osiris, Serapis was called not only Christos but also Chrestos, centuries before the common era. Indeed, Osiris was styled Chrestus long before his Jewish copycat Jesus was ever conceived."
- Acharya S "Suns of God"

you have obviously completely missed the plot here...*sigh* :(

logos880
20-04-2012, 08:22 PM
Assumption. As usual.



Duh, hate to break it to you but Paganism is older that sheeple-ianity sorry.

you do realize what "foreshadowing" means, right?

http://wiki.answers.com/Q/Which_religion_is_older_-_wicca_or_Christianity

Don't try to justify cloud boy with Paganism it won't work....more than enough evidence has been posted throughout this forum that CAST a HUGE doubt as to the existence of this MYTH.....the only thing this MYTH has done is rob people blind and given Pulpit Pimps fine cars and nice homes.

not true, christianity has had a profoundly positive impact in my life, and every other christian that I know.

don't you ever get tired of raining on other people's parades??

logos880
20-04-2012, 08:29 PM
Excerpt from, "Apologetics for the 21st Century" by Louis Markos:

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q117/skd2k1/books_66.png

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q117/skd2k1/books_67.png

http://i134.photobucket.com/albums/q117/skd2k1/books_68.png

Amazon.com: Apologetics for the Twenty-first Century (9781433514487): Louis Markos: Books@@AMEPARAM@@http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/51%2BIIuhiRhL.@@AMEPARAM@@51%2BIIuhiRhL

passerbye999
20-04-2012, 08:35 PM
I think the coming of Jesus and his death were a another happening of an older story from older people. Dyonosius and Mythrus must have been real as well and they fulfilled the story as well. For I do not believe they were mere prophecies from "pagans" of something that was to come in the future but something that has happened a few times in history most probably. Some imaginations or creative fantacy if you will must be based off of some truth or inspiration from said truth. So I in part believe in your premise.

drakul
20-04-2012, 09:06 PM
Yes Logos this concept of Jesus as a `true myth' is logical. From my standpoint - Jesus was a great hero of the people, an enlightened man who had reached - GOD Consciousness if you will.

So what happens? For 2,000 years people sit around their fire hearths at night telling stories about Jesus and the legend grows: Jesus was born by Immaculate Conception - IOW Jesus was not one of lowly us but a demigod. For me claims of Immaculate Conception and the Physical Ressurection are overkill.They poison the well in a sense, because they give the anti-Christs attack points. How many times have we heard the derisive (Jewish) claim that Jesus was a bastard and Mary was a whore? There was a thread on this very subject just a few days ago here with that claim.

I don't NEED all the miraculous claims about Jesus to believe in HIM. What is important to me are his teachings. The letters written in red. The rest is just fluffy frosting.

logos880
20-04-2012, 09:25 PM
I think the coming of Jesus and his death were a another happening of an older story from older people. Dyonosius and Mythrus must have been real as well and they fulfilled the story as well. For I do not believe they were mere prophecies from "pagans" of something that was to come in the future but something that has happened a few times in history most probably. Some imaginations or creative fantacy if you will must be based off of some truth or inspiration from said truth. So I in part believe in your premise.

I believe the story of Jesus as it is recounted by the gospels. I also believe that the story of Jesus was foreshadowed in pagan mythology throughout history. While I do consider the story of Jesus a myth, I also consider the story of Jesus to be completely true as it is portrayed in the gospels.

however, I think that there are some differences present between the story of Jesus Christ and those of the pagan christs before him. the mythology surrounding dionysus, osiris, and the like is not tied into reality, there was never an attempt at establishing historicity of any kind other than in the case of Jesus. if Jesus, unlike the other pagan christs, were proven to be fiction it would effectively destroy the christian religion, the same cannot be said of other mythology.

logos880
20-04-2012, 09:27 PM
Yes Logos this concept of Jesus as a `true myth' is logical. From my standpoint - Jesus was a great hero of the people, an enlightened man who had reached - GOD Consciousness if you will.

So what happens? For 2,000 years people sit around their fire hearths at night telling stories about Jesus and the legend grows: Jesus was born by Immaculate Conception - IOW Jesus was not one of lowly us but a demigod. For me claims of Immaculate Conception and the Physical Ressurection are overkill.They poison the well in a sense, because they give the anti-Christs attack points. How many times have we heard the derisive (Jewish) claim that Jesus was a bastard and Mary was a whore? There was a thread on this very subject just a few days ago here with that claim.

I don't NEED all the miraculous claims about Jesus to believe in HIM. What is important to me are his teachings. The letters written in red. The rest is just fluffy frosting.

sounds like you apply to the jeffersonian school of christianity. this isn't the thread for that particular debate, but I did start a thread on this subject:

Lewis' Trilemma: Lunatic, Liar, or Lord?

http://forum.davidicke.com/showthread.php?t=179064

vooei
20-04-2012, 10:09 PM
I've done abit of reading today ( I likes to read :p ) and ive stumbled across something that makes a lot of sense regarding Jesus as a historical, living breathing man and the connection with Egypt ( Horus stuff ) the Knights Templars & mystery schools. It goes against the grain of the literalism of the NT, yet makes sense of it all. You know like one of them 'EUREKA !!! ' type deals.

I will elaborate at some point in the future when I do abit more reading into it. :)

My stance currently is that there is some truth to the myth of Jesus the Christ. :)

william68
20-04-2012, 10:44 PM
I have `Acvharya's book, The Greatest Story Ever Sold. She mixes alot of lies in with truth. Really blatant provable lies. For example Acharya claims that the Egyptian God Horus was crucified. The Egyptians left MILLIONS of artifacts behind. Millions. And not one depiction or writing about a crucified Horus. Acharya counts on the ignorance and naivity of others to push her Masonic agenda.

Acharya is heavily influenced, if not a member of the Freemasons (yes women have their own Masonic order - Order of the Eastern Star). In her book Acharya sings the praises of such infamous 33 degree Freemasons as Albert Pike, whom David Icke credits with instigating the US Civil War in which 250,000 people died.


Good article below on the subject. Just repeating the many (mostly) christian biased claims against her to me fall short. Given I had read many of her works and seen the personal attacks against and her work debunked.

http://www.stellarhousepublishing.com/washoruscrucified.html

(images at article mainsite)

Was Horus "Crucified?"
by D.M. Murdock/Acharya S


Excerpted from
Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection




"Osiris, the Egyptian Saviour, was crucified in the heavens. To the Egyptian the cross was the symbol of immortality, an emblem of the Sun, and the god himself was crucified to the tree, which denoted his fructifying power.
"Horus was also crucified in the heavens. He was represented, like...Christ Jesus, with outstretched arms in the vault of heaven."

Thomas W. Doane, Bible Myths and Their Parallels in Other Religions (484)

In my book Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection, I delve deeply into various parallels between the Jewish godman Jesus Christ and the Egyptian gods Horus and Osiris. Along with the claim that Horus was born on "December 25th" or the winter solstice of a virgin called Mery comes the contention that he was "crucified between two thieves," as Jesus is depicted to have been in the New Testament. Although I included this motif in my book The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold, this assertion does not originate with me but can be found in older sources, as highlighted in Christ in Egypt ("CIE"), which contains a 40-page chapter on the subject entitled "Was Horus 'Crucified?,'" with 120 footnotes citing primary sources as well as the works of respected Egyptologists and other scholars in relevant fields. This chapter in CIE also provides 18 images to illustrate the various points, such as the abundance of Pagan gods and goddesses in cruciform or cross shapes.

The list of sources cited in the chapter "Was Horus 'Crucified?'" includes: ancient Egyptian primary sources such as the Pyramid Texts, Coffin Texts, Book of the Dead and other artifacts; the writings of the ancient historians Herodotus and Plutarch, philosophers Plato and Philo, and the Egyptian priest Horapollo; the Bible; noncanonical early Christian writings such as the Epistle of Barnabas, Acts of John and Acts of Pilate; the writings of early Church fathers Justin Martyr, Tertullian and Minucius Felix; Gnostic writings; Coptic writings such as the Kebra Nagast; the Catholic Encyclopedia; the works of modern Egyptologists Drs. Erik Hornung, Raymond O. Faulkner, Jan Assman and Barbara S. Lesko; and the works of various theologians, historians and other professional scholars such as Pope Benedict XVI, Jean Doresse, Joseph Campbell, Dr. Roger Beck and Dr. Tryggve N.D. Mettinger.

Even with all of the scholarship put together in Christ in Egypt, there remains much confusion concerning this subject, because many people erroneously believe that the contention is that Horus or Osiris were killed via crucifixion, as allegedly happened to Jesus. In actuality, the most common myths concerning the deaths of Osiris and Horus are that the former was rent into pieces, while the latter was stung by a scorpion, after which both were resurrected. In this regard, the same Greek word used by historian Diodorus Siculus in the first century BCE to describe Horus's resurrection—anastasis—is utilized by later biblical writers in the New Testament to depict Christ's resurrection (e.g., Mt 22:23).

Testimony of the Church Fathers
It needs to be emphasized that the claim is not that Horus was a human being thrown to the ground and nailed to a piece of wood. In CIE, I discuss the etymology of the word "crucify," which comes from the Latin crucifigere, composed of cruci/crux and affigere/figere, meaning "cross" and "to fix/affix," respectively. Crucifigere and its English derivation "to crucify" mean "to fix to a cross," but not necessarily to throw down and nail to a piece of wood. What we are interested in, then, is whether or not pre-Christian gods and goddesses were depicted as fixed to a cross or in cruciform, appearing as a crucifix. This motif of a pre-Christian or non-Christian god or man on a cross or cross-shaped is expounded upon by the Church fathers Tertullian (c. 160-c. 200) and Minucius Felix (2nd-3rd cents.). In his Apology (16), Tertullian remarks:

"We have shown before that your deities are derived from shapes modelled from the cross. But you also worship victories, for in your trophies the cross is the heart of the trophy. The camp religion of the Romans is all through a worship of the standards, a setting the standards above all gods. Well, as those images decking out the standards are ornaments of crosses. All those hangings of your standards and banners are robes of crosses." (Roberts, ANCL, 85)

The place where Tertullian had "shown before" his contentions about the Pagan gods being cross-shaped was in his work Ad Nationes (12), in a lengthy treatise which includes the following remarks:

"...The Heathens Themselves Made Much of Crosses in Sacred Things; Nay, Their Very Idols Were Formed on a Crucial [Crosslike] Frame.

"...your gods in their origin have proceeded from this hated cross... if you simply place a man with his arms and hands outstretched, you will make the general outline of a cross...." (Roberts, ANF, III, 122)

In his Octavius (29), Minucius echoes the same sentiment:

"...The Egyptians certainly choose out a man for themselves whom they may worship... Crosses, moreover, we neither worship nor wish for. You, indeed, who consecrate gods of wood, adore wooden crosses perhaps as parts of your gods. For your very standards, as well as your banners, and flags of your camp, what else are they but crosses gilded and adorned? Your victorious trophies not only imitate the appearance of a simple cross, but also that of a man affixed to it." (Roberts, ANF, IV, 191)

In the same passage, Minucius states, "...crucis signum est, et cum homo porrectis manibus deum pura mente veneratur." (Felix, 66) To wit, "...the sign of the cross it is, also when a man stretching out his hands venerates God with a pure mind."

In his First Apology Church father Justin Martyr (c. 150) writes:

"Chapter 21. Analogies to the history of Christ.

"And when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter..." (Roberts, ANF, I, 170)

It is evident that the Church fathers did not perceive the configuration of Christ on the cross to be anything unusual. Indeed, they insisted that the Pagans likewise worshipped gods on crosses or in "crucial frame," as Tertullian styles it. With such surprising declarations from early Christian authorities, we are justified in asking which of the "sons of Jupiter," i.e., the Greek and Roman gods, was thus depicted as "crucified?" What we discover is that both the cross and a deity or man on a cross were common sacred motifs long before the Christian era. In reality, there were many depictions of Pagan gods and goddesses in cruciform or in cross shape, with arms outstretched, a motif considered by the Church fathers to represent the "sign of the cross," such as concerns Moses, for example, at Exodus 17:11. Regarding the repeated statements and reports about the reverential crosslike pose or "cruciform posture" by the Church fathers and elsewhere in Christendom, Rev. William W. Seymour remarks:

"Examples of this posture in prayer are found in the Catacombs....

"We find that the ancient Egyptians used this posture in prayer, as is figured in the hieroglyphics on the obelisk before the Church of S. John Lateran at Rome. This also was the custom of the Romans... The Hebrews spread forth their hands before the Lord; in short, this posture in devotion we believe may be traced the world over..." (Seymour, 432-433)

In reality, non-Christian gods were represented in cruciform centuries before Christ was portrayed likewise; in fact, the first depiction of Jesus on a cross in art did not occur until the fifth century AD/CE. As stated by the Catholic Encyclopedia ("Cross and the Crucifix"):

"The sign of the cross, represented in its simplest form by a crossing of two lines at right angles, greatly antedates, in both the East and the West, the introduction of Christianity. It goes back to a very remote period of human civilization....

"...It is also...a symbol of the sun...and seems to denote its daily rotation.... Cruciform objects have been found in Assyria. The statutes of Kings Asurnazirpal and Sansirauman, now in the British Museum, have cruciform jewels about the neck.... Cruciform earrings were found by Father Delattre in Punic tombs at Carthage.

"Another symbol which has been connected with the cross is the ansated cross (ankh or crux ansata) of the ancient Egyptians.... From the earliest times also it appears among the hieroglyphic signs symbolic of life or of the living... perhaps it was originally, like the swastika, an astronomical sign. The ansated cross is found on many and various monuments of Egypt.... In later times the Egyptian Christians (Copts), attracted by its form, and perhaps by its symbolism, adopted it as the emblem of the cross...

"...In the proto-Etruscan cemetery of Golasecca every tomb has a vase with a cross engraved on it....

"...On an ancient vase we see Prometheus bound to a beam which serves the purpose of a cross.... In the same way the rock to which Andromeda was fastened is called crux, or cross....

"...The Christian apologists, such as Tertullian (Apol., xvi; Ad. Nationes, xii) and Minucius Felix (Octavius, lx, xii, xxviii), felicitously replied to the pagan taunt by showing that their persecutors themselves adored cruciform objects. Such observations throw light on a peculiar fact of primitive Christian life, i.e. the almost total absence from Christian monuments of the period of persecutions of the plain, unadorned cross...

"...The early years of the fifth century are of the highest importance in this development, because it was then that the undisguised cross first appears.... But the fifth century marks the period when Christian art broke away from old fears, and, secure in its triumph, displayed before the world, now become Christian also, the sign of its redemption....

"...The most ancient text we have relating to a carved cross dates from later than A.D. 362....

"...Although in the fifth century the cross began to appear on public monuments, it was not for a century afterwards that the figure on the cross was shown; and not until the close of the fifth, or even the middle of the sixth century, did it appear without disguise...." (CE, IV, 517ff)

In its article entitled "Images," the Catholic Encyclopedia relates:

"...The first mentions of [Christian] crucifixes are in the sixth century.... The oldest crucifixes known are those on the wooden doors of St. Sabina at Rome and an ivory carving in the British Museum... Both are of the fifth century...." (CE, VII, 667)

As we can see, the cross was a sacred symbol, and cruciform objects were worn around the neck, long before the Christian era. One such cruciform figurine with a crucifix around its neck from Cyprus dates to the Chalcolithic Age (3900-2500 BCE). On a vase dating from around 350 BCE, we find a tortured Greek god Prometheus chained in cruciform, while another vase dating to the late sixth to early seventh centuries BCE depicts Prometheus on a stake or stauros, as the term is in Greek - the same word used in the New Testament to describe Christ's cross. Moreover, the mythical princess Andromeda too was portrayed essentially as having been crucified, as demonstrated by an image from Pompeii, which was destroyed in 79 AD/CE, several centuries before Christ was depicted on the cross in art. So too was the Egyptian cross or ankh a prevalent sacred symbol for millennia prior to the common era, being adopted as well by Egyptian Christians or Copts.

Horus and the Cross
In this regard, Osiris and Horus both were associated with and/or identified as a cross, such as the ankh, which, like the cross of Jesus, represents eternal life. Horus is identified with the cross in several ways, using the ankh, for instance, to raise Osiris from the dead. Providing an example of the Church fathers' contention about gods with arms outstretched making the sign of the cross or being in "crucial frame," i.e., cruciform, Egyptologist Dr. Erik Hornung discusses Horus as the hawk "whose wings span the sky" (CGAE, 124) and "the ancient god of the heavens, whose wings spread over the whole earth" (VK, 59). We find several other Egyptian gods and goddesses in this same cruciform pose, with arms and wings outstretched, including in tombs and on numerous coffins, serving as protection and assistance for a smooth passage into the afterlife, the same role as the cross on Christian coffins. Again, the early Christians considered figures with arms outstretched to be making the sign of the cross, and they compared Pagan gods in cruciform to Christ on the cross.

Horus as the hawk with his wings or arms outstretched reflects his role as the sun god "crossing over" the sky, as depicted in various hymns and Coffin Texts. As I say in Christ in Egypt (342), the significance of asserting the sun god to be "crucified" is not that his myth is imitated exactly in the gospel story but that he was a revered pre-Christian god "on a cross" and that this particular motif was adopted by those who created the Christian myth specifically because it was a popular and venerated theme.

Moreover, in Christ in Egypt, I include an extensive discussion of a mysterious Egypto-Gnostic character named Horos, essentially the same name as "Horus" in Greek, although the two words are spelled slightly differently, the former with an omega and the latter with an omicron. Nevertheless, there is reason to suppose that the Gnostic figure of Horos and the Egyptian god Horus are at root one and the same. The Gnostic Horos not only is associated with but is also identified as "Stauros"—the Cross—again, the same Greek word used in the gospels to describe what Jesus was purportedly crucified upon. Indeed, in Christian writings Jesus is "often assimilated" to Horos-Stauros.

In describing the Gnostic character of Horos-Stauros, the Encyclopedia Britannica ("Valentinus") relates:

"A figure entirely peculiar to Valentinian Gnosticism is that of Horos (the Limiter). The name is perhaps an echo of the Egyptian Horus. The peculiar task of Horos is to separate the fallen aeons from the upper world of aeons. At the same time he becomes...a kind of world-creative power.... He is also called, curiously enough, Stauros (cross), and we frequently meet with references to the figure of Stauros. But we must not be in too great a hurry to conjecture that this is a Christian figure. Speculations about the Stauros are older than Christianity, and a Platonic conception may have been at work here. Plato had already stated that the world-soul revealed itself in the form of the letter Chi (X); by which he meant that figure described in the heavens by the intersecting orbits of the sun and the planetary ecliptic. Since through this double orbit all the movements of the heavenly powers are determined, so all "becoming" and all life depend on it, and thus we can understand the statement that the world-soul appears in the form of an X, or a cross. The cross can also stand for the wondrous aeon on whom depends the ordering and life of the world, and thus Horos-Stauros appears here as the first redeemer of Sophia from her passions, and as the orderer of the creation of the world which now begins. This explanation of Horos, moreover, is not a mere conjecture, but one branch of the Valentinian school, the Marcosians, have expressedly so explained this figure.... Naturally, then, the figure of Horos-Stauros was often in later days assimilated to that of the Christian Redeemer. (EB, 854 [Emph. added])

Here we read that the name Horos is "perhaps an echo of the Egyptian Horus" and that "speculations about the Stauros are older than Christianity." We further learn that the ancient writer Plato (429-347 BCE) had described the "world-soul" in the shape of an X or cross and that this concept also represented the orbits of the sun and earth's ecliptic intersecting. Again, this Gnostic Horos-Stauros character with pre-Christian roots was so similar to the Christ figure that the two were frequently combined.

Plato's World Soul and Just Man Crucified
In his role as the sun crossing over the sky and as the apparent origin of the Horos-Stauros character, Horus has been compared to Plato's world-soul impressed upon a cross in the heavens, as found in the Timaeus (36bc). (Plato, 49) This Platonic figure in turn was commonly taken to be a "foreshadowing" of the Christ character and cross. As theologian Rev. Dr. Hugo Rahner states:

"...Adapting an old Pythagorean notion, Plato had written in the Timaeus of the world soul revealed in the celestial X; to the early Christian this was a pagan imitation of the world-building crucified Logos who encompasses the cosmos and causes it to revolve around the mystery of the Cross." (Campbell, 372)

One of these early Christians who saw the Cross and Son of God revealed in Plato's writing was Justin Martyr, who in his First Apology (60.1), in a section entitled "Plato's Doctrine of the Cross," remarked:

"And the physiological discussion concerning the Son of God in the Timæus of Plato, where he says, 'He placed him crosswise in the universe," he borrowed in like manner from Moses...'" (Roberts, ANF, I, 183; Justin/Gildersleeve, 55)

Commenting on this interpretation, Dr. Eric Francis Osborn states, "The supremacy of divine love in creation leads Justin to attribute to Plato the concept of the cosmic cross." (Osborn, 51) Justin's remark about Moses being the originator of the cosmic cross comes from the early Church fathers' interpretation of Numbers 21:6-9, in which Moses is said to raise up a bronze serpent, asserted to be a "type of cross." In consideration of the debate as to Moses's historicity and when exactly the Old Testament texts were written down first, the contention that the biblical writers possessed these or other spiritual notions before other cultures is unfounded, particularly in view of the antiquity of the Egyptian civilization and the abundance of spiritual concepts there.

In any event, centuries before the common era Plato also discussed a "just man" who is "crucified" (Republic 361d), as related by Pope Benedict XVI (Cardinal Ratzinger):

"...according to Plato the truly just man must be misunderstood and persecuted in this world; indeed, Plato goes so far as to write: 'They will say that our just man will be scourged, racked, fettered, will have his eyes burned out, and at last, after all manner of suffering will be crucified.' This passage, written four hundred years before Christ, is always bound to move a Christian deeply." (Ratzinger, 353)

The Pope uses the translation of Plato by Dr. A.D. Lindsay, who specifically renders the Greek as "crucified" in describing the fate of the "just man." This Platonic passage, in fact, much resembles that found at Isaiah 53:4-1 and, along with that OT "messianic prophecy," likely was used as a blueprint in the creation of the Christ character. Again, in Platonic philosophy, the "world soul" or "divine Son of God," as Justin interprets it, is impressed upon a cross in the vault of heaven, representing, as we have seen, the sun crossing over the ecliptic, which was likewise the role not only of Horus in transit across the sky but also of the Gnostic Horos-Stauros, another "cosmic cross."

Osiris and the Djed Pillar
As a Platonic ideal, the cosmic cross/stauros precedes the Christian era by centuries; yet, the cross supposedly only gained significance with Jesus's alleged death upon it. In fact, the cross's purpose as bestower of salvation and eternal life already existed as a spiritual concept long before the common era, in Egypt for one. Indeed, Osiris's depiction on or as the djed pillar - surrounded by the two sisters or "the Merti" (Budge, 429), much like Christ on the cross with the three Marys at his feet (Jn 19:25)—served as "sin removal," as related in Christ in Egypt (351):

"...the erection of the djed cross during the celebration also apparently took the place of human sacrifice, which was designed to propitiate the god or God in order to remove sins and bring about continuity of the community as a whole."

The correlation between Osiris's pillar and the cross of Jesus was obvious enough to the Egyptian Christians or Copts for them to depict Archangel Michael, for example, holding a "djed cross" in his right hand.

As further stated in CIE (365), in addition to pre-Christian texts depicting the "crucified man in space," we also possess various Egypto-Christian artifacts connecting Jesus with both Osiris and Horus, including Gnostic gems. As another example, in Ancient Christian Mage: Coptic Texts of Ritual Power, Drs. Marvin W. Meyer and Richard Smith report on a crucifix in the Coptic Museum in Old Cairo "with the crucified figure of Jesus together with a falcon (Horus)." This artifact demonstrates that identifying Horus with the crucified Jesus occurred even in antiquity.

As revealed in my books Christ in Egypt and Suns of God, there is much more to the subject of Pagan gods and goddesses on a cross or in cruciform, serving as crucifixes. The images and descriptions of deities in cruciform include Osiris, Isis and Horus, and the answer to the question of whether or not Horus was ever associated with the cross and depicted on a cross or in cruciform must be a resounding yes. If other gods were shown on a cross or in cruciform, or associated otherwise with a sacred cross, then Christ's depiction on a cross is not unique. If the Pagan personified savior-cross existed first, the whole notion of Christ's redeeming power through the cross becomes derivative. Rather than representing "history," it is more probable that Christ's "crucifixion" constitutes a mythical motif created in order to associate him with the already revered cross and image of a divine figure in cruciform. We must therefore conclude that the figure of Christ on a cross or in the shape of a cross is a johnny-come-lately in the world of religious iconography, and the story of the crucifixion appears more likely a contrivance based on this important imagery, as well as on Jewish "messianic prophecies" or blueprints, instead of an improbable "historical" tale. Indeed, the crucifixion reveals itself to be another pre-Christian mythical motif with a largely astrotheological meaning.

Along with this interesting evidence concerning the profound importance of the sacred cross in pre-Christian religion, as well as its association and identification with Egyptian gods, we find another "Christian" motif in Egypt, with Horus represented on the cross at the vernal equinox between two "thieves" in a pre-Christian artifact. For much more information on this fascinating subject, see Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection.

Sources

"1000 Years of History," www.limassollink.com/history.php
"Herakles & Prometheus," www.theoi.com/Gallery/T21.4.html
Budge, Ernest Alfred Wallis, An Egyptian Hieroglyphic Dictionary, v. 1, Dover Publications, NY, 1978.
Campbell, Joseph, ed., The Mysteries: Papers from the Eranos Yearbooks, Bollingen Series XXX, Princeton University Press, 1979.
Catholic Encyclopedia, IV, ed. Charles George Herbermann, The Encyclopedia Press, 1913.
--VII, ed. Charles George Herbermann, The Encyclopedia Press, 1913.
Corbelli, Judith A., The Art of Death in Graeco-Roman Egypt, Osprey Publishing, 2006.
Doane, Thomas, Bible Myths and Their Parallels in Other Religions, The Truth Seeker, 1882.
Encyclopedia Britannica, XXVII, The Encyclopedia Britannica Company, NY, 1910.
Faulkner, Raymond, The Egyptian Book of the Dead, Chronicle Books, San Francisco, 1998.
Felix, Minucius, Octavius, ed. Gilles Quispel, E.J. Brill, Leiden, 1973.
Hornung, Erik, Conceptions of God in Ancient Egypt, tr. John Baine, Cornell University Press, NY, 1982.
--The Valley of the Kings: Horizon of Eternity, tr. David Warburton, Timken Publishers, NY, 1990.
Justin Martyr, The Apologies of, ed. Basil L. Gildersleeve, Harper & Brothers Publishers, NY, 1877.
Kamil, Jill, Christianity in the Land of the Pharaohs: The Coptic Orthodox Church, Routledge, 2002.
Lundy, John P., Monumental Christianity, or the Art and Symbolism of the Primitive Church, J.W. Bouton, NY, 1876.
Maitland, Charles, The Church in the Catacombs: A Description of the Primitive Church of Rome, Longman, Brown, Green and Longmans, London, 1846.
Meyer, Marvin W. and Smith, Richard, Ancient Christian Mage: Coptic Texts of Ritual Power, Princeton University Press, 1999.
Murdock, D.M., Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection, Stellar House Publishing, Seattle, 2009.
Osborn, Eric Francis, Justin Martyr, J.C.B. Mohr/Siebeck, Tubingen, 1973.
Plato, Timaeus and Critias, tr. Desmond Lee, Penguin Books, 1971.
Ratzinger, Joseph Cardinal, Introduction to Christianity, Ignatius Press, 2004.
Roberts, Alexander, Ante-Nicene Christian Library, XI, T&T Clark, Edinburgh, 1869.
--Ante-Nicene Fathers, I, The Christian Literature Publishing Co., Buffalo, 1885.
--Ante-Nicene Fathers, III, Charles Scribner's Sons, NY, 1903.
--Ante-Nicene Fathers, IV, Charles Scribner's Sons, NY, 1926.
Seymour, William Wood, The Cross in Tradition, History and Art, G.P. Putnam's Sons, NY/London, 1898.
Sharpe, Samuel, Egyptian Antiquities in the British Museum, John Russell Smith, London, 1862.
Wilkinson, J. Gardner, The Manner and Customs of the Ancient Egyptians, I, John Murray, London, 1847.

Illustrations

a. Tertullian
b. The Octavius of Minucius Felix
c. Justin Martyr
d. Cruciform prayer posture of deceased Christian in the catacombs. (Seymour, 433)
e. Hellenized Egyptian funerary stela from Kom Abu-Billo/Terenuthis, with Horus hawk. 3rd-4th cent. AD/CE (Kamil, 153; Corbelli, 39)
f. Human in cruciform with cross around neck from Cyprus, Chalcolithic period (3900-2500 BCE), www.limassollink.com/history.php
g. The Shari in Egypt wearing crosses, possibly Assyrians, c. 15th cent. BCE. (Wilkinson, I, 365, 375ff)
h. Crosses on the bottoms of ossuary-vases from the cemetery at Golasecca, Italy. (Seymour, 25)
i. Prometheus crucified using chains on a Greek vase, c. 350. BCE, www.theoi.com/Gallery/T21.4.html
j. Andromeda crucified using chains in a wall painting from Pompeii, c. 79 AD/CE, www.uwm.edu/Course/mythology/0800/underworld.htm
k. Early Christian crucifix from the catacombs, in a manuscript from the sixth century. (Seymour, 172)
l. Crucifixion scene from the Santa Sabina Church, Rome, 5th cent.
m. Prometheus bound to a wooden stake or stauros, i.e., a cross, on a Greek vase, c. late sixth to early seventh cents. BCE, www.theoi.com/Gallery/T21.5.html
n. Horus using Egyptian cross to raise Osiris. (Lundy, 403)
o. Winged goddess (Isis) in cruciform on King Tut's sarcophagus.
p. Horus with arms outstretched in vault of heaven, from Samuel Sharpe's Egyptian Antiquities in the British Museum (143). This image was originally on a papyrus and is here and in Christ in Egypt depicted upside down for purposes of more readily illustrating the point.
q. Plato's world soul forming a cross of the solar and planetary orbits and ecliptic.
r. Plato
s. Moses raising up the "brazen serpent" or snake made of bronze, shaped like a cross. (Seymour, 54)
t. Osiris as personified djed pillar holding the sun, surrounded by the two sisters Isis and Nephthys - called the Merti - found in the Egyptian Book of the Dead, Ani Papyrus, plate 1, c. 13th-15th cents. BCE.
u. Christ on the cross, surrounded by the three Marys, per John 19:25, www.knowjesuschrist.org/prayers.html.
v. Archangel Michael holding a djed cross in a Coptic painting, 18th cent. (Kamil, 156)

passerbye999
20-04-2012, 11:33 PM
I believe the story of Jesus as it is recounted by the gospels. I also believe that the story of Jesus was foreshadowed in pagan mythology throughout history. While I do consider the story of Jesus a myth, I also consider the story of Jesus to be completely true as it is portrayed in the gospels.

however, I think that there are some differences present between the story of Jesus Christ and those of the pagan christs before him. the mythology surrounding dionysus, osiris, and the like is not tied into reality, there was never an attempt at establishing historicity of any kind other than in the case of Jesus. if Jesus, unlike the other pagan christs, were proven to be fiction it would effectively destroy the christian religion, the same cannot be said of other mythology.

I believe that there was a mythical and a real Jesus. The mythical is wrapped up in symbology, metephor and astrology. The real Jesus a man who inspired the world with his teaching. I believe there was a source document of his sayings and the nativity story along with his life and death that all the ggospel writers borrowed from.

Who is to say if a real Dionosius or Mythrus did or didn't exist I would say there is some validation in the myth to point out actual historical characters as well. Why not? even the similarities between Buddha's story and Jesus's is there and we know Buddha did exist and was a man who walked the earth 500yrs before Jesus.

I on the other hand do not believe Jesus was God, the messiah was never meant to be God or a god but a man; a king and priest combined. Which he most certaintly was being of the blood line on both sides of David. I do not believe in the virgin birth that I believe was part of the mythical Jesus. So he would fit into and fulfill prophecy.

I do not believe in prophecy so to speak though there is some possibility of the concept of divination or clairavoyance to be real. Where does the myth begin and end though when it comes to the historical man?

logos880
20-04-2012, 11:48 PM
I believe that there was a mythical and a real Jesus. The mythical is wrapped up in symbology, metephor and astrology. The real Jesus a man who inspired the world with his teaching. I believe there was a source document of his sayings and the nativity story along with his life and death that all the ggospel writers borrowed from.

Who is to say if a real Dionosius or Mythrus did or didn't exist I would say there is some validation in the myth to point out actual historical characters as well. Why not? even the similarities between Buddha's story and Jesus's is there and we know Buddha did exist and was a man who walked the earth 500yrs before Jesus.

I on the other hand do not believe Jesus was God, the messiah was never meant to be God or a god but a man; a king and priest combined. Which he most certaintly was being of the blood line on both sides of David. I do not believe in the virgin birth that I believe was part of the mythical Jesus. So he would fit into and fulfill prophecy.

I do not believe in prophecy so to speak though there is some possibility of the concept of divination or clairavoyance to be real. Where does the myth begin and end though when it comes to the historical man?

I don't think buddha qualifies as a 'corn king', as for Jesus' divinity, I'll refer you to this thread:

Lewis' Trilemma: Lunatic, Liar, or Lord?

http://forum.davidicke.com/showthread.php?t=179064 :)

passerbye999
21-04-2012, 01:56 AM
I don't think buddha qualifies as a 'corn king', as for Jesus' divinity, I'll refer you to this thread:

Lewis' Trilemma: Lunatic, Liar, or Lord?

http://forum.davidicke.com/showthread.php?t=179064 :)

I have read most of .cs. lewis's books and don't find him to be the utter genius christians of blind faith claim him to be. that quote of his is utterly ridiculous. Either he was a madman or God no middle ground. I don't think so. As for the other arguement it is not satisfactory either. Elijah and Elisha brought people back from the dead and made miracles as well. They were just men.

logos880
21-04-2012, 02:48 AM
I have read most of .cs. lewis's books and don't find him to be the utter genius christians of blind faith claim him to be. that quote of his is utterly ridiculous. Either he was a madman or God no middle ground. I don't think so. As for the other arguement it is not satisfactory either. Elijah and Elisha brought people back from the dead and made miracles as well. They were just men.

liar, lunatic, or lord...so there are three possibilities there, and I don't really see any way around that. elijah and elisha didn't die for the sin of the world, nor did they claim to be G-d.

passerbye999
21-04-2012, 02:58 AM
liar, lunatic, or lord...so there are three possibilities there, and I don't really see any way around that. elijah and elisha didn't die for the sin of the world, nor did they claim to be G-d.

Then if those are my only choices I say lunatic Lord. He was definately a great prophet and teacher but not God so he must have been Bi polar1. Being manic he could very well had those delusions and still preformed miracles and the like. Manias would have lasted for years if untreated in the old days. I don't see how we have been saved by him dying on a cross. No one has been saved and in all this time he still hasn't returned I doubt very much that he ever will. For no one has ever done it before.

bendoon
22-04-2012, 02:39 AM
and we know Buddha did exist and was a man who walked the earth 500yrs before Jesus.

I won't profess to be an expert but there doesn't appear to be any real evidence of Buddhas existence and there are no written records older than the first century AD, so if anything it would be more likely that Buddha was based on Jesus rather than the other way round.

passerbye999
22-04-2012, 02:55 AM
I won't profess to be an expert but there doesn't appear to be any real evidence of Buddhas existence and there are no written records older than the first century AD, so if anything it would be more likely that Buddha was based on Jesus rather than the other way round.

Buddhism had reached Greece by 100 BC so I don't think so. The three wise men were probably Buddhist. This is not common knowledge but if you do the research you will see the effect Buddhism had on western society around those times. Like most things it was eventually eradicated in the west though. Do to the emergence of Persian and other middle eastern religions. Bodhidharma the founder of Ch'an or Zen Buddhism was by the earliest accounts a Persian.

seanx
22-04-2012, 03:05 AM
Then if those are my only choices I say lunatic Lord. He was definately a great prophet and teacher but not God so he must have been Bi polar1. Being manic he could very well had those delusions and still preformed miracles and the like. Manias would have lasted for years if untreated in the old days. I don't see how we have been saved by him dying on a cross. No one has been saved and in all this time he still hasn't returned I doubt very much that he ever will. For no one has ever done it before.

Very true - and surely the 'second coming' is symbolic and refers most likely
to the coming of higher/Christ/ or Buddha consciousness in mankind ?

bendoon
22-04-2012, 03:14 AM
Buddhism had reached Greece by 100 BC so I don't think so. The three wise men were probably Buddhist.

The three wise men more than likely took the story of Jesus back to India which then morphed into the story of Buddha.

When was the Buddha’s first appearance in history? Not until the late 1st century A.D., at the very earliest. “The image proper, that is, a fully evolved image with anthropomorphic dimensions, appears around the 1st century A.D. There is, amongst the Buddha statues, reported from Mathura, a dated one of A.D. 81. Some of the gold and copper coins of Kanishka, who ruled from 78 A.D. onward, have Buddha images on their reverse”

http://religionnewsblog.blogspot.co.uk/2007/07/historicity-of-buddha-lack-of-evidence.html

Before then there was no Buddha, no evidence at all, nothing.

What there was before then was a religion without the Buddha, we could compare this to the relationship between Judaism and Christianity where Judaism morphed into Christianity after Christ the pre Buddhist religion became Buddhism after the Buddha was invented in the first century AD.

saint_frankenstein
22-04-2012, 03:21 AM
There's no verifiable evidence for the existence of an historical Jesus, Buddha, Mohammad, etc. /thread

passerbye999
22-04-2012, 04:25 AM
The three wise men more than likely took the story of Jesus back to India which then morphed into the story of Buddha.

http://religionnewsblog.blogspot.co.uk/2007/07/historicity-of-buddha-lack-of-evidence.html

Before then there was no Buddha, no evidence at all, nothing.

What there was before then was a religion without the Buddha, we could compare this to the relationship between Judaism and Christianity where Judaism morphed into Christianity after Christ the pre Buddhist religion became Buddhism after the Buddha was invented in the first century AD.

Some of the edicts of Aśoka describe the efforts made by him to propagate the Buddhist faith throughout the Hellenistic world, which at that time formed an uninterrupted continuum from the borders of India to Greece. The edicts indicate a clear understanding of the political organization in Hellenistic territories: the names and locations of the main Greek monarchs of the time are identified, and they are claimed as recipients of Buddhist proselytism: Antiochus II Theos of the Seleucid Kingdom (261–246 BCE), Ptolemy II Philadelphos of Egypt (285–247 BCE), Antigonus Gonatas of Macedonia (276–239 BCE), Magas (288–258 BCE) in Cyrenaica (modern Libya), and Alexander II (272–255 BCE) in Epirus (modern Northwestern Greece).

Wikipedia.

I said 100 B.C. but I was wrong. Whether Buddha actually existed is not relevant. The teachings of Buddha pre date Christianity in the western worlld.

logos880
22-04-2012, 06:34 AM
Then if those are my only choices I say lunatic Lord. He was definately a great prophet and teacher but not God so he must have been Bi polar1. Being manic he could very well had those delusions and still preformed miracles and the like. Manias would have lasted for years if untreated in the old days. I don't see how we have been saved by him dying on a cross. No one has been saved and in all this time he still hasn't returned I doubt very much that he ever will. For no one has ever done it before.

lewis' trilemma may not represent all possibilities here, but I can't think of any others. people believe what they choose to believe, that is your right. FWIW, I believe Jesus is Lord, and he did die and resurrect for our sins. :)

passerbye999
22-04-2012, 07:02 AM
lewis' trilemma may not represent all possibilities here, but I can't think of any others. people believe what they choose to believe, that is your right. FWIW, I believe Jesus is Lord, and he did die and resurrect for our sins. :)

That is your belief and I respect that.:D

logos880
28-04-2012, 08:27 PM
J.R.R. Tolkien: Truth and Myth

JOSEPH PEARCE

Tolkien preserved his mother's legacy and kept the faith, not only in his life but also in his work. In particular, and crucially, Tolkien's encounter with the depths of Christian mysticism and his understanding of the truths of orthodox theology enabled him to unravel the philosophy of myth that inspired not only the "magic" of his books but also the conversion of his friend C.S. Lewis to Christianity.

Myths, Lewis told Tolkien, were "lies and therefore worthless, even though breathed through silver."

"No," Tolkien replied. "They are not lies." Far from being lies they were the best way — sometimes the only way — of conveying truths that would otherwise remain inexpressible. We have come from God, Tolkien argued, and inevitably the myths woven by us, though they contain error, reflect a splintered fragment of the true light, the eternal truth that is with God. Myths may be misguided, but they steer however shakily toward the true harbor, whereas materialistic "progress" leads only to the abyss and the power of evil.

"In expounding this belief in the inherent truth of mythology," wrote Tolkien's biographer, Humphrey Carpenter, "Tolkien had laid bare the center of his philosophy as a writer, the creed that is at the heart of The Silmarillion." It is also the creed at the heart of all his other work. His short novel, Tree and Leaf, is essentially an allegory on the concept of true myth, and his poem, "Mythopoeia," is an exposition in verse of the same concept.

Building on this philosophy of myth, Tolkien explained to Lewis that the story of Christ was the true myth at the very heart of history and at the very root of reality. Whereas the pagan myths were manifestations of God expressing Himself through the minds of poets, using the images of their "mythopoeia" to reveal fragments of His eternal truth, the true myth of Christ was a manifestation of God expressing Himself through Himself, with Himself, and in Himself. God, in the Incarnation, had revealed Himself as the ultimate poet who was creating reality, the true poem or true myth, in His own image. Thus, in a divinely inspired paradox, myth was revealed as the ultimate realism.

Such a revelation changed Lewis' whole conception of Christianity, precipitating his conversion.

Lewis was one of the select group of friends, known collectively as the Inklings, who read the manuscript of Tolkien's timeless classic, The Lord of the Rings, as it was being written. This work, which has been voted the greatest book of the 20th century in a succession of polls, was described by its author as "a fundamentally religious and Catholic work; unconsciously so at first, but consciously in the revision."

In brief, however, the power of Tolkien lies in the way that he succeeds, through myth, in making the unseen hand of providence felt by the reader. In his mythical creations, or sub-creations as he would call them, he shows how the unseen hand of God is felt far more forcefully in myth than it is ever felt in fiction. Paradoxically, fiction works with facts, albeit invented facts, whereas myth works with truth, albeit truth dressed in fancy disguises. Furthermore, since facts are physical and truth is metaphysical, myth, being metaphysical, is spiritual.

The writer and poet Charles A. Coulombe concluded his essay, "The Lord of the Rings: A Catholic View," with the following incisive assessment of Tolkien's importance. It was a fitting conclusion to his essay on the subject. It is also a fitting conclusion to mine:

"It has been said that the dominant note of the traditional Catholic liturgy was intense longing. This is also true of her art, her literature, her whole life. It is a longing for things that cannot be in this world: unearthly truth, unearthly purity, unearthly justice, unearthly beauty. By all these earmarks, Lord of the Rings is indeed a Catholic work, as its author believed: But it is more. It is this age's great Catholic epic, fit to stand beside the Grail legends, Le Morte d'Arthur and The Canterbury Tales. It is at once a great comfort to the individual Catholic, and a tribute to the enduring power and greatness of the Catholic tradition, that JRRT created this work. In an age which has seen an almost total rejection of the faith on the part of the Civilization she created . . . Lord of the Rings assures us, both by its existence and its message, that the darkness cannot triumph forever."

http://catholiceducation.org/articles/arts/al0107.html

...:)

ming the merciless
28-04-2012, 09:18 PM
All ancient cultures had myths of gods, demons, spirits, etc which explained how everything came to be and how the world worked.

The jewish myth of Yahweh is no different, a god of a whole world who only looked after one small group of people.

ming the merciless
28-04-2012, 09:22 PM
logos880. I had a look at the link and "Catholic Education" sounds sinister to me, sounding more like re-education so you will believe their view if you know what is good for you.

People who write fiction for a living are hardly geniuses on any subject, including religion.

logos880
28-04-2012, 10:15 PM
All ancient cultures had myths of gods, demons, spirits, etc which explained how everything came to be and how the world worked.

The jewish myth of Yahweh is no different, a god of a whole world who only looked after one small group of people.

"The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God,(A) who takes away the sin of the world!"

logos880
28-04-2012, 10:18 PM
logos880. I had a look at the link and "Catholic Education" sounds sinister to me, sounding more like re-education so you will believe their view if you know what is good for you.

a person must first choose to believe, in order to believe.

People who write fiction for a living are hardly geniuses on any subject, including religion.

a lot of people have written fiction over the years since fiction has been being written, I don't think a sweeping generalization is fit for the description of such a large group of people.

vooei
28-04-2012, 10:23 PM
"The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God,(A) who takes away the sin of the world!"

Jesus:


But he replied, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the nation of Israel."

Matthew 15:24

logos880
28-04-2012, 10:28 PM
Jesus:


But he replied, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the nation of Israel."

Matthew 15:24

21 Leaving that place, Jesus withdrew to the region of Tyre and Sidon.(R) 22 A Canaanite woman from that vicinity came to him, crying out, “Lord, Son of David,(S) have mercy on me! My daughter is demon-possessed and suffering terribly.”(T)

23 Jesus did not answer a word. So his disciples came to him and urged him, “Send her away, for she keeps crying out after us.”

24 He answered, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of Israel.”(U)

25 The woman came and knelt before him.(V) “Lord, help me!” she said.

26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”

27 “Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”

28 Then Jesus said to her, “Woman, you have great faith!(W) Your request is granted.” And her daughter was healed at that moment.

Jesus healed the gentile woman because of her "great faith."

28 Simeon took him in his arms and praised God, saying:

29 “Sovereign Lord, as you have promised,(X)
you may now dismiss[d] your servant in peace.(Y)
30 For my eyes have seen your salvation,(Z)
31 which you have prepared in the sight of all nations:
32 a light for revelation to the Gentiles,
and the glory of your people Israel.”

vooei
28-04-2012, 10:31 PM
Jesus healed the gentile woman because of her "great faith."

After he referred to her ( gentile ) as a dog and she referred to him as her master ( Jew ) .

26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”

27 “Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”

logos880
28-04-2012, 10:41 PM
After he referred to her ( gentile ) as a dog and she referred to him as her master ( Jew ) .

26 He replied, “It is not right to take the children’s bread and toss it to the dogs.”

27 “Yes it is, Lord,” she said. “Even the dogs eat the crumbs that fall from their master’s table.”

the jews are compared to children, and Jesus is the master. Jesus was sent to minister, in His time on earth, to the israelites specifically. so, Jesus' time here is akin to the bread, they are both finite and meant for a specific purpose.

In his commentary on Mark, renowned commentator R.C.H. Lenski translated the Greek term used by Jesus (kunaria) as “little pet dogs.” Lenski further noted concerning Jesus statement: “In the Orient dogs have no owners but run wild and serve as scavengers for all garbage and offal.... It is an entirely different conception when Jesus speaks of ‘little pet dogs’ in referring to the Gentiles. These have owners who keep them even in the house and feed them by throwing them bits from the table” (1961, p. 304). Lenski goes on to write concerning Jesus’ statement: “All that Jesus does is to ask the disciples and the woman to accept the divine plan that Jesus must work out his mission among the Jews.... Any share of Gentile individuals in any of these blessings can only be incidental during Jesus’ ministry in Israel” (pp. 304-305). In regard to the non-derogatory nature of Jesus’ comment to the Gentile woman, Allen Black wrote: “The form of his statement is proverbial. And the basis of the proverb is not an antipathy for Gentiles, but the necessary Jewish focus of Jesus’ earthly ministry” (1995, p. 137).

vooei
28-04-2012, 11:01 PM
the jews are compared to children, and Jesus is the master. Jesus was sent to minister, in His time on earth, to the israelites specifically. so, Jesus' time here is akin to the bread, they are both finite and meant for a specific purpose.

So Jesus is the master, the Jews are his children and the Gentiles ( non Jews ) are little pet dogs who scavenge for garbage and offal. :confused:

logos880
28-04-2012, 11:09 PM
So Jesus is the master, the Jews are his children and the Gentiles ( non Jews ) are little pet dogs who scavenge for garbage and offal. :confused:

no, the jews, as children, were of the master's immediate concern, don't you feed your pets?

In his commentary on Mark, renowned commentator R.C.H. Lenski translated the Greek term used by Jesus (kunaria) as “little pet dogs.” Lenski further noted concerning Jesus statement: “In the Orient dogs have no owners but run wild and serve as scavengers for all garbage and offal.... It is an entirely different conception when Jesus speaks of ‘little pet dogs’ in referring to the Gentiles. These have owners who keep them even in the house and feed them by throwing them bits from the table” (1961, p. 304). Lenski goes on to write concerning Jesus’ statement: “All that Jesus does is to ask the disciples and the woman to accept the divine plan that Jesus must work out his mission among the Jews.... Any share of Gentile individuals in any of these blessings can only be incidental during Jesus’ ministry in Israel” (pp. 304-305). In regard to the non-derogatory nature of Jesus’ comment to the Gentile woman, Allen Black wrote: “The form of his statement is proverbial. And the basis of the proverb is not an antipathy for Gentiles, but the necessary Jewish focus of Jesus’ earthly ministry” (1995, p. 137).

vooei
28-04-2012, 11:15 PM
no, the jews, as children, were of the master's immediate concern, don't you feed your pets?

So Jews are superior to non Jews in Jesus eyes ?







P.s I'm trolling :p

logos880
28-04-2012, 11:40 PM
So Jews are superior to non Jews in Jesus eyes ?

no, Jesus spent His time on earth witnessing to israel, however His sacrifice was for all. this was the promise to abraham.

P.s I'm trolling :p

no probs. ;)

jon galt
28-04-2012, 11:58 PM
"The next day John saw Jesus coming toward him and said, “Look, the Lamb of God,(A) who takes away the sin of the world!"

Yeah through a process of human sacrifice with elements of canabilism to apease a god who if is all powerful, why need the sacrifice to be apeased and forgive man of the original sin?

tnt1
29-04-2012, 01:19 AM
The parallels of the pagan christs that prefigured the one true Christ, Jesus, abound here on the DI forum. these parallels seem to be a source of conflict amongst us. so let's shake hands, find our common ground, and understand where these similarities come from and why these similarities should be a source of fellowship rather than a source of strife. :)



http://www.cslewis.org/journal/humble-heroism-frodo-baggins-as-christian-hero-in-the-lord-of-the-rings/



http://www.fireandknowledge.org/archives/2005/12/05/the-story-of-christ-is-simply-a-true-myth/

...discuss.

I always thought Christianity a false religion and this from an early age. I was brought Catholic and born into a devoutly religious Irish clan all of which still practice it. To me it was nothing other than a necessary split of Judaism in order to take attention away from the chosen tribe that was charged with securing the Ark of the Covenant which as history shows us was handled by the chosen tribe of Levi during the Exodus and later handled by the Knights Templar and the chosen among them that were part of the plan to secure it at any cost. Christianity continued on but if you compare the views of both Catholicism and Judaism other than Jesus they are very similar. Judaism has Lilith instead of Eve as I recall. An interesting contrast and compare could be done with that also I think. Much of the old testament teachings influence a great many lives each day due to this split thats for sure.

logos880
29-04-2012, 01:21 AM
Yeah through a process of human sacrifice with elements of canabilism to apease a god who if is all powerful, why need the sacrifice to be apeased and forgive man of the original sin?

have a look at this thread, it answers your questions:

Why Was Jesus' Sacrifice Necessary?

http://forum.davidicke.com/showthread.php?t=198454

:)

logos880
29-04-2012, 01:24 AM
I always thought Christianity a false religion and this from an early age. I was brought Catholic and born into a devoutly religious Irish clan all of which still practice it. To me it was nothing other than a necessary split of Judaism in order to take attention away from the chosen tribe that was charged with securing the Ark of the Covenant which as history shows us was handled by the chosen tribe of Levi during the Exodus and later handled by the Knights Templar and the chosen among them that were part of the plan to secure it at any cost. Christianity continued on but if you compare the views of both Catholicism and Judaism other than Jesus they are very similar. Judaism has Lilith instead of Eve as I recall. An interesting contrast and compare could be done with that also I think. Much of the old testament teachings influence a great many lives each day due to this split thats for sure.

Without Jesus christianity ceases to be christianity.

why is it so necessary to take focus away from the ark of the covenant? the birth, life, death, and resurrection of Jesus marks the end of the covenant that the old ark signified. Jesus is the Ark of the New Covenant.

tnt1
29-04-2012, 02:31 AM
Without Jesus christianity ceases to be christianity.

why is it so necessary to take focus away from the ark of the covenant? the birth, life, death, and resurrection of Jesus marks the end of the covenant that the old ark signified. Jesus is the Ark of the New Covenant.

Only if you are Christian. If you are a Jew on the other hand knowing that the new belief is false that changes everything because the story of Jesus as well as the new covenant is all BS. The Ark and or the Holy Grail were sought by many, was hidden many times, said to be in several places over history and is still said to be out there hidden away for safe keeping to protect it or to protect humanity from it I'm not sure. The last place anyone would have expected to see the Ark at this time in history would be in the hands of a non Jewish people. As I understood it the Ark was taken at first to an underground chamber and then taken away just in time before the temple was sacked. I forget now where it went but the history was just on a program the other night showing this. I cannot recall the title and I did not catch the entire program. What I did catch was enlightening and it appears the Knights Templar escorted the Ark to where it presently is said to be sitting in either Ethiopia or Oak Island take your pick. ;)

logos880
29-04-2012, 02:35 AM
Only if you are Christian. If you are a Jew on the other hand knowing that the new belief is false that changes everything because the story of Jesus as well as the new covenant is all BS.

at this point I'll need to ask you for proof of your assertion, so?

The Ark and or the Holy Grail were sought by many, was hidden many times, said to be in several places over history and is still said to be out there hidden away for safe keeping to protect it or to protect humanity from it I'm not sure. The last place anyone would have expected to see the Ark at this time in history would be in the hands of a non Jewish people. As I understood it the Ark was taken at first to an underground chamber and then taken away just in time before the temple was sacked. I forget now where it went but the history was just on a program the other night showing this. I cannot recall the title and I did not catch the entire program. What I did catch was enlightening and it appears the Knights Templar escorted the Ark to where it presently is said to be sitting in either Ethiopia or Oak Island take your pick. ;)

yeah, the history channel is a bastion of enlightenment, what with tv shows like 'ancient aliens' and the like. I'd wager you can trust the history channel just as much as cnn or fox news. :rolleyes:

ferryman to the dead
30-04-2012, 12:53 AM
Jesus:


But he replied, "I was sent only to the lost sheep of the nation of Israel."

Matthew 15:24

Man you cannot prove a myth with the very book that says he lived especially since none of the so called bible writers ever saw this myth alive. No attempt to prove the Bible with itself will work it will fail. I see where your going but the real question is there is any primary or contemporary evidence to support such a myth and there is not.

drakul
30-04-2012, 12:42 PM
no, Jesus spent His time on earth witnessing to israel, however His sacrifice was for all. this was the promise to abraham.



Actually this is not true - Jesus spent most of his time witnessing in non Jewish countries and regions - Jesus primarily preached in Galilee which the Bible calls `Land of the Gentiles'. Jesus also preached in Syria and Jordan. Jesus preached in the Dacapolis - 10 Greek cities. Everywhere in these non Jewish areas Jesus was adored.

But even from the very beginning of his ministry Jesus could not preach in Judea because `the Jews sought to kill him'. And they did, shortly after Jesus arrived in Jerusalem.

logos880
01-05-2012, 08:43 PM
Actually this is not true - Jesus spent most of his time witnessing in non Jewish countries and regions - Jesus primarily preached in Galilee which the Bible calls `Land of the Gentiles'. Jesus also preached in Syria and Jordan. Jesus preached in the Dacapolis - 10 Greek cities. Everywhere in these non Jewish areas Jesus was adored.

But even from the very beginning of his ministry Jesus could not preach in Judea because `the Jews sought to kill him'. And they did, shortly after Jesus arrived in Jerusalem.

Jesus' ministry before his death, resurrection and ascension was primarily to the Jews, though far from being restricted to them. After these events he sent out his disciples, whom he had thoroughly prepared, into all the world with his message of good news of salvation by grace (Mt 28:18-20, etc). That is why Jesus knows, when he hears that the Greeks are pressing to see Him (Jn 12:20-22), that his hour of death is imminent (12:23-24, 27). For Jesus must suffer, die and be glorified before his universal message of salvation (12:32) can be carried to the Gentile world.

http://www.answering-islam.org/authors/beck/universal.html

the full article at the link is completely sourced from the bible. :)

logos880
01-05-2012, 08:45 PM
Tolkien's Mythopoeia:

Philomythus to Misomythus

You look at trees and label them just so,
(for trees are 'trees', and growing is 'to grow');
you walk the earth and tread with solemn pace
one of the many minor globes of Space:
a star's a star, some matter in a ball
compelled to courses mathematical
amid the regimented, cold, inane,
where destined atoms are each moment slain.

At bidding of a Will, to which we bend
(and must), but only dimly apprehend,
great processes march on, as Time unrolls
from dark beginnings to uncertain goals;
and as on page o'er-written without clue,
with script and limning packed of various hue,
an endless multitude of forms appear,
some grim, some frail, some beautiful, some queer,
each alien, except as kin from one
remote Origo, gnat, man, stone, and sun.
God made the petreous rocks, the arboreal trees,
tellurian earth, and stellar stars, and these
homuncular men, who walk upon the ground
with nerves that tingle touched by light and sound.
The movements of the sea, the wind in boughs,
green grass, the large slow oddity of cows,
thunder and lightning, birds that wheel and cry,
slime crawling up from mud to live and die,
these each are duly registered and print
the brain's contortions with a separate dint.
Yet trees are not 'trees', until so named and seen
and never were so named, tifi those had been
who speech's involuted breath unfurled,
faint echo and dim picture of the world,
but neither record nor a photograph,
being divination, judgement, and a laugh
response of those that felt astir within
by deep monition movements that were kin
to life and death of trees, of beasts, of stars:
free captives undermining shadowy bars,
digging the foreknown from experience
and panning the vein of spirit out of sense.
Great powers they slowly brought out of themselves
and looking backward they beheld the elves
that wrought on cunning forges in the mind,
and light and dark on secret looms entwined.

He sees no stars who does not see them first
of living silver made that sudden burst
to flame like flowers bencath an ancient song,
whose very echo after-music long
has since pursued. There is no firmament,
only a void, unless a jewelled tent
myth-woven and elf-pattemed; and no earth,
unless the mother's womb whence all have birth.
The heart of Man is not compound of lies,
but draws some wisdom from the only Wise,
and still recalls him. Though now long estranged,
Man is not wholly lost nor wholly changed.
Dis-graced he may be, yet is not dethroned,
and keeps the rags of lordship once he owned,
his world-dominion by creative act:
not his to worship the great Artefact,
Man, Sub-creator, the refracted light
through whom is splintered from a single White
to many hues, and endlessly combined
in living shapes that move from mind to mind.
Though all the crannies of the world we filled
with Elves and Goblins, though we dared to build
Gods and their houses out of dark and light,
and sowed the seed of dragons, 'twas our right
(used or misused). The right has not decayed.
We make still by the law in which we're made.

Yes! 'wish-fulfilment dreams' we spin to cheat
our timid hearts and ugly Fact defeat!
Whence came the wish, and whence the power to dream,
or some things fair and others ugly deem?
All wishes are not idle, nor in vain
fulfilment we devise -- for pain is pain,
not for itself to be desired, but ill;
or else to strive or to subdue the will
alike were graceless; and of Evil this
alone is deadly certain: Evil is.

Blessed are the timid hearts that evil hate
that quail in its shadow, and yet shut the gate;
that seek no parley, and in guarded room,
though small and bate, upon a clumsy loom
weave tissues gilded by the far-off day
hoped and believed in under Shadow's sway.

Blessed are the men of Noah's race that build
their little arks, though frail and poorly filled,
and steer through winds contrary towards a wraith,
a rumour of a harbour guessed by faith.

Blessed are the legend-makers with their rhyme
of things not found within recorded time.
It is not they that have forgot the Night,
or bid us flee to organized delight,
in lotus-isles of economic bliss
forswearing souls to gain a Circe-kiss
(and counterfeit at that, machine-produced,
bogus seduction of the twice-seduced).
Such isles they saw afar, and ones more fair,
and those that hear them yet may yet beware.
They have seen Death and ultimate defeat,
and yet they would not in despair retreat,
but oft to victory have tuned the lyre
and kindled hearts with legendary fire,
illuminating Now and dark Hath-been
with light of suns as yet by no man seen.

I would that I might with the minstrels sing
and stir the unseen with a throbbing string.
I would be with the mariners of the deep
that cut their slender planks on mountains steep
and voyage upon a vague and wandering quest,
for some have passed beyond the fabled West.
I would with the beleaguered fools be told,
that keep an inner fastness where their gold,
impure and scanty, yet they loyally bring
to mint in image blurred of distant king,
or in fantastic banners weave the sheen
heraldic emblems of a lord unseen.

I will not walk with your progressive apes,
erect and sapient. Before them gapes
the dark abyss to which their progress tends
if by God's mercy progress ever ends,
and does not ceaselessly revolve the same
unfruitful course with changing of a name.
I will not treat your dusty path and flat,
denoting this and that by this and that,
your world immutable wherein no part
the little maker has with maker's art.
I bow not yet before the Iron Crown,
nor cast my own small golden sceptre down.

In Paradise perchance the eye may stray
from gazing upon everlasting Day
to see the day illumined, and renew
from mirrored truth the likeness of the True.
Then looking on the Blessed Land 'twill see
that all is as it is, and yet made free:
Salvation changes not, nor yet destroys,
garden nor gardener, children nor their toys.
Evil it will not see, for evil lies
not in God's picture but in crooked eyes,
not in the source but in malicious choice,
and not in sound but in the tuneless voice.
In Paradise they look no more awry;
and though they make anew, they make no lie.
Be sure they still will make, not being dead,
and poets shall have flames upon their head,
and harps whereon their faultless fingers fall:
there each shall choose for ever from the All.

...:)

ferryman to the dead
01-05-2012, 11:58 PM
Originally Posted by drakul
Actually this is not true - Jesus spent most of his time witnessing in non Jewish countries and regions - Jesus primarily preached in Galilee which the Bible calls `Land of the Gentiles'. Jesus also preached in Syria and Jordan. Jesus preached in the Dacapolis - 10 Greek cities. Everywhere in these non Jewish areas Jesus was adored.

But even from the very beginning of his ministry Jesus could not preach in Judea because `the Jews sought to kill him'. And they did, shortly after Jesus arrived in Jerusalem.

Mickey Mouse spent most of his time flying too....no proof this sheep herder ever lived much less walked the earth........no wonder this myth is hauling in the big $$$$$$$$$$$ weak minded people buy this shit.

chrysalis55
02-05-2012, 12:56 PM
Mickey Mouse spent most of his time flying too....no proof this sheep herder ever lived much less walked the earth........no wonder this myth is hauling in the big $$$$$$$$$$$ weak minded people buy this shit.

Yeah, I've heard this "weak minded" theory a lot, especially from my father when I was a child. But even as a child, I always knew who the weak minded one was. His crutch was alcohol.

drakul
02-05-2012, 02:25 PM
Mickey Mouse spent most of his time flying too....no proof this sheep herder ever lived much less walked the earth........no wonder this myth is hauling in the big $$$$$$$$$$$ weak minded people buy this shit.

Is a person who is compelled to commit blood sacrifice to please his god a `strong-minded' in your book?

Or is it just a weak-minded person in the grip of black superstition?

ferryman to the dead
02-05-2012, 10:54 PM
Yeah, I've heard this "weak minded" theory a lot, especially from my father when I was a child. But even as a child, I always knew who the weak minded one was. His crutch was alcohol.

And yours is a sheep herder you have never seen and only read about in a book. Religion is a crutch it supports the weak mind with myths and fairytales that are bought like candy in a candy store.

Why do you think this jesus has never returned? Oh sure it says in the bible that no man knows the time or day but apparently this jesus does not know either. People have been waiting around for 2000 years for this mythical god man to suddenly appear and every year its the same "No JESUS!" Churches plaster this crap on signs "he is coming soon!" Yeah right, you would have a better chance of getting hit by a truck.

chrysalis55
02-05-2012, 11:41 PM
And yours is a sheep herder you have never seen and only read about in a book. Religion is a crutch it supports the weak mind with myths and fairytales that are bought like candy in a candy store.

Why do you think this jesus has never returned? Oh sure it says in the bible that no man knows the time or day but apparently this jesus does not know either. People have been waiting around for 2000 years for this mythical god man to suddenly appear and every year its the same "No JESUS!" Churches plaster this crap on signs "he is coming soon!" Yeah right, you would have a better chance of getting hit by a truck.

So, what is your crutch?

tnt1
06-05-2012, 01:35 PM
at this point I'll need to ask you for proof of your assertion, so?



yeah, the history channel is a bastion of enlightenment, what with tv shows like 'ancient aliens' and the like. I'd wager you can trust the history channel just as much as cnn or fox news. :rolleyes:

Proof that the Jesus myth is just that? Read, "The World Sixteen Crucified Saviors", the Christ Conspiracy, and/or 'The Book Your Church Doesn't Want You To Read" and you'll find more than enough to more than make assertions.

As for your comments on the program I suggested. If an intelligent person can look at something in a book or a forum and pick out the BS one should be able to do so with the TV as well but in light of your comment and the apparent light heart-ed smile face icon you placed one could also say, 'why post on the David Icke forum a question such as this? Thats just a bastion of enlightenment what with guys like David Wilcox and Alex Jones frequently shown there all the time. ;) So you see, we have to use our rational minds to pick these details we can accept up. This should not surprise you since this is a daily occurrence this 'filtering' process the mind goes through from day to day. Even your CNN and Fox news contains some things worth seeing and being aware of as many others do. It is not so much what is broadcast as it is what you choose to absorb isn't it? What you accept, what you don't and to reject all just because some falseness is there mixed with truth would be a mistake. There is falseness here also. The smart thing to do would be to sort it out for yourself not shut if off completely just because of a subjective judgement on your part.

The order of the snake started with good intentions, pure teachings, and the correct plan for humanity but others infiltrated it, corrupted it and followed suit in every major and minor religion we could name. Each time what started out as a good thing was soon overun with those wanting to manipulate it or those behind it to then control the course of the 'ship' so to speak. No one wants a bunch of awake humans running around now do they? While our news is filtered you must realize there are still many worthy things presented.

If I asked you to view your room right now and to look all around at all the things in the room that are brown looking it over for the next ten seconds and then close your eyes. Tell me now with your eyes closed all that you saw in the room that was blue? You see while you chose to focus on just the brown in life (the crap!) there was plenty of blue there also you just closed it out, chose not to see, did not notice it when you did see it because you had your mind closed and as a result guess what? You missed the blue! The blue was there. It is there in your 'shitty' programs like FOX and CNN also but you have to realize it, then chose to allow it into your being.

ferryman to the dead
06-05-2012, 02:27 PM
So, what is your crutch?

Don't need one as I do not rely on myths and fairy tales to get me through life...christians have been leaning on this "he's coming crutch" for over 2000 years and still leaning on it. Whats going to be the excuse in another 2000 years when they are still waiting? The tired old adage of "no man knows the time or day" was a great escape clause.

bishadi
06-05-2012, 03:42 PM
Don't need one as I do not rely on myths and fairy tales to get me through life...christians have been leaning on this "he's coming crutch" for over 2000 years and still leaning on it. Whats going to be the excuse in another 2000 years when they are still waiting? The tired old adage of "no man knows the time or day" was a great escape clause.

The "coming" is what?

A human life being the first to awaken to the true comprehension of itself...?!?

What is mankind awaiting?????

Answer: The bottom line on how existence operates.

That's about it! As once the principles are awakened with our species the cancer of bs will fade.

Ie...... Just about every single conscious life ever born has wanted to understand.

We are light (energy) upon mass.

And I be the dickhead with the name upon the head (between the ears).

logos880
06-05-2012, 06:42 PM
Proof that the Jesus myth is just that? Read, "The World Sixteen Crucified Saviors", the Christ Conspiracy, and/or 'The Book Your Church Doesn't Want You To Read" and you'll find more than enough to more than make assertions.

have you been reading my posts in this thread? the entire point of this thread is to address books like "the christ conspiracy." I realize that there are many pagan christs, and I agree with tolkien and lewis that these pagan christs are merely foreshadowing of Jesus Christ, the true Christ, through divine inspiration of the imagination.

sorry to burst your bubble, but archaya and the like have been lampooned more times than I can count on this forum. :o

As for your comments on the program I suggested. If an intelligent person can look at something in a book or a forum and pick out the BS one should be able to do so with the TV as well but in light of your comment and the apparent light heart-ed smile face icon you placed one could also say, 'why post on the David Icke forum a question such as this? Thats just a bastion of enlightenment what with guys like David Wilcox and Alex Jones frequently shown there all the time. ;) So you see, we have to use our rational minds to pick these details we can accept up. This should not surprise you since this is a daily occurrence this 'filtering' process the mind goes through from day to day. Even your CNN and Fox news contains some things worth seeing and being aware of as many others do. It is not so much what is broadcast as it is what you choose to absorb isn't it? What you accept, what you don't and to reject all just because some falseness is there mixed with truth would be a mistake. There is falseness here also. The smart thing to do would be to sort it out for yourself not shut if off completely just because of a subjective judgement on your part.

so I suppose you apply the same standards to "ancient aliens" that you do to the existence of Jesus Christ? because, as far as I know, there isn't a shred of proof that the earth has been visited by ET's from planet nibiru or wherever.

The order of the snake started with good intentions, pure teachings, and the correct plan for humanity but others infiltrated it, corrupted it and followed suit in every major and minor religion we could name. Each time what started out as a good thing was soon overun with those wanting to manipulate it or those behind it to then control the course of the 'ship' so to speak. No one wants a bunch of awake humans running around now do they? While our news is filtered you must realize there are still many worthy things presented.

these are the two greatest commandments of christianity:



37 Jesus replied: “‘Love the Lord your God with all your heart and with all your soul and with all your mind.’ 38 This is the first and greatest commandment. 39 And the second is like it: ‘Love your neighbor as yourself.’ 40 All the Law and the Prophets hang on these two commandments.”

all I see is goodness there, no?

as far as the news and television in general is concerned, everything we see there is because we have been allowed to see it.

If I asked you to view your room right now and to look all around at all the things in the room that are brown looking it over for the next ten seconds and then close your eyes. Tell me now with your eyes closed all that you saw in the room that was blue? You see while you chose to focus on just the brown in life (the crap!) there was plenty of blue there also you just closed it out, chose not to see, did not notice it when you did see it because you had your mind closed and as a result guess what? You missed the blue! The blue was there. It is there in your 'shitty' programs like FOX and CNN also but you have to realize it, then chose to allow it into your being.

it doesn't get more "blue" than the message, ministry, and work of Jesus Christ. ;)

ferryman to the dead
06-05-2012, 07:53 PM
have you been reading my posts in this thread? the entire point of this thread is to address books like "the christ conspiracy." I realize that there are many pagan christs, and I agree with tolkien and lewis that these pagan christs are merely foreshadowing of Jesus Christ, the true Christ, through divine inspiration of the imagination.

sorry to burst your bubble, but archaya and the like have been lampooned more times than I can count on this forum. :o



so I suppose you apply the same standards to "ancient aliens" that you do to the existence of Jesus Christ? because, as far as I know, there isn't a shred of proof that the earth has been visited by ET's from planet nibiru or wherever.



these are the two greatest commandments of christianity:



all I see is goodness there, no?

as far as the news and television in general is concerned, everything we see there is because we have been allowed to see it.



it doesn't get more "blue" than the message, ministry, and work of Jesus Christ. ;)

sorry to burst your bubble, but archaya and the like have been lampooned more times than I can count on this forum.

Only thing lampooned here is this dip shit myth you call jesus not a one of you can prove he ever lived none of you have and none of you will. Your bible is the only evidence you have written by sheep herders.

it doesn't get more "blue" than the message, ministry, and work of Jesus Christ.

I bet you dump 3/4 of your paycheck into the collection plate every sunday don't you? Ever notice how these churches get bigger and you get poorer?


so I suppose you apply the same standards to "ancient aliens" that you do to the existence of Jesus Christ? because, as far as I know, there isn't a shred of proof that the earth has been visited by ET's from planet nibiru or wherever.


Nibiru does not exist and neither does your myth boy find another myth that at least has some foundation.

Q: Is there a planet or brown dwarf called Nibiru or Planet X or Eris that is approaching the Earth and threatening our planet with widespread destruction?

A: Nibiru and other stories about wayward planets are an Internet hoax. There is no factual basis for these claims. If Nibiru or Planet X were real and headed for an encounter with the Earth in 2012, astronomers would have been tracking it for at least the past decade, and it would be visible by now to the naked eye. Obviously, it does not exist. Eris is real, but it is a dwarf planet similar to Pluto that will remain in the outer solar system; the closest it can come to Earth is about 4 billion miles.

http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/2012.html

the entire point of this thread is to address books like "the christ conspiracy."

Apparently its got you worried or you would not be worrying about it. Funny as hell really.....no matter how hard you fundies try you can never admit your concocted jesus story is just that "a story" with no factual basis or historical basis at all.......you worship the "SUN"................:D

logos880
06-05-2012, 09:08 PM
Only thing lampooned here is this dip shit myth you call jesus not a one of you can prove he ever lived none of you have and none of you will. Your bible is the only evidence you have written by sheep herders.

ohhhh, you totally burned me on that one.

I bet you dump 3/4 of your paycheck into the collection plate every sunday don't you? Ever notice how these churches get bigger and you get poorer?

I don't get "poorer." there are things more valuable than money.

Nibiru does not exist and neither does your myth boy find another myth that at least has some foundation.

http://www.nasa.gov/topics/earth/features/2012.html

Facts are simple and facts are straight
Facts are lazy and facts are late
Facts all come with points of view
Facts don't do what I want them to
Facts just twist the truth around
Facts are living turned inside out
Facts are getting the best of them
Facts are nothing on the face of things
Facts don't stain the furniture
Facts go out and slam the door
Facts are written all over your face
Facts continue to change their shape

;)

Apparently its got you worried or you would not be worrying about it. Funny as hell really.....no matter how hard you fundies try you can never admit your concocted jesus story is just that "a story" with no factual basis or historical basis at all.......you worship the "SUN"................:D

well, if commenting on a particular subject can be equated to "worry", you must be really really "worried" about Jesus...:eek:...now that's funny. :D

edit: btw, thanks for the bump.

exu156
14-07-2012, 02:15 AM
The three wise men more than likely took the story of Jesus back to India which then morphed into the story of Buddha.



http://religionnewsblog.blogspot.co.uk/2007/07/historicity-of-buddha-lack-of-evidence.html

Before then there was no Buddha, no evidence at all, nothing.

What there was before then was a religion without the Buddha, we could compare this to the relationship between Judaism and Christianity where Judaism morphed into Christianity after Christ the pre Buddhist religion became Buddhism after the Buddha was invented in the first century AD.

not true:

During his lifetime the Buddha taught not in Vedic Sanskrit, which had become unintelligible to the people, but in his own NE Indian dialect; he also encouraged his monks to propagate his teachings in the vernacular. After his death, the Buddhist canon was formulated and transmitted by oral tradition, and it was written down in several versions in the 2d and 1st cent. Its main divisions, called pitakas [baskets], are the Vinaya or monastic rules, the Sutra (Pali Sutta) or discourses of the Buddha, and the Abhidharma (Pali Abhidhamma) or scholastic metaphysics. Also included are the Jataka, stories about the previous births of the Buddha, many of which are non-Buddhist in origin. The only complete Indian version of the canon now extant is that of the Sri Lankan Theravada school, in the Pali language, written in 29—17 (see Pali). North Indian Buddhist texts were written in a type of Sanskrit influenced by the vernaculars. Mahayana Buddhism produced its own class of sutras, and all schools of Buddhism generated a considerable body of commentary and philosophy. The entire corpus of Buddhist writings was translated into Chinese over a period of a thousand years, beginning in the 1st cent. This was a collaborative effort of foreign and Chinese monks. Its most recent edition, the Taisho Daizokyo (1922—33), is in 45 volumes of some 1,000 pages of Chinese characters each. Translation of Buddhist texts into Tibetan was begun in the 7th cent. The final redaction of the canon was by the Buddhist historian Bu-ston (1290—1364) and is in two sections, the Kanjur (translation of the Buddha's word) and the Tanjur (translation of treatises), consisting altogether of about 320 volumes of Tibetan script. The Tibetan translation is extremely literal, following the Sanskrit almost word for word and based on standardized Sanskrit-Tibetan equivalences for Buddhist terms; thus it is particularly useful for scholars.


See M. Cummings, Lives of the Buddha in the Art and Literature of Asia (1982).

The Buddha lived from 563 BC to 483 BC. The story of his life is overlaid with legend, the earliest written accounts dating 200 years after his death

See E. J. Thomas, The Life of Buddha as Legend and History (1963)

tenzingnorgay
14-07-2012, 03:03 AM
I have `Acvharya's book, The Greatest Story Ever Sold. She mixes alot of lies in with truth. Really blatant provable lies. For example Acharya claims that the Egyptian God Horus was crucified. The Egyptians left MILLIONS of artifacts behind. Millions. And not one depiction or writing about a crucified Horus. Acharya counts on the ignorance and naivity of others to push her Masonic agenda.

Acharya is heavily influenced, if not a member of the Freemasons (yes women have their own Masonic order - Order of the Eastern Star). In her book Acharya sings the praises of such infamous 33 degree Freemasons as Albert Pike, whom David Icke credits with instigating the US Civil War in which 250,000 people died.

She doesn't lie and she isn't masonic, but she is a fairly mainstream atheist influenced writer.

Here's what she actually said about Horus and cruxcifixion:

"In my book Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection, I delve deeply into various parallels between the Jewish godman Jesus Christ and the Egyptian gods Horus and Osiris. Along with the claim that Horus was born on "December 25th" or the winter solstice of a virgin called Mery comes the contention that he was "crucified between two thieves," as Jesus is depicted to have been in the New Testament. Although I included this motif in my book The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold, this assertion does not originate with me but can be found in older sources, as highlighted in Christ in Egypt ("CIE"), which contains a 40-page chapter on the subject entitled "Was Horus 'Crucified?,'" with 120 footnotes citing primary sources as well as the works of respected Egyptologists and other scholars in relevant fields. This chapter in CIE also provides 18 images to illustrate the various points, such as the abundance of Pagan gods and goddesses in cruciform or cross shapes.

The list of sources cited in the chapter "Was Horus 'Crucified?'" includes: ancient Egyptian primary sources such as the Pyramid Texts, Coffin Texts, Book of the Dead and other artifacts; the writings of the ancient historians Herodotus and Plutarch, philosophers Plato and Philo, and the Egyptian priest Horapollo; the Bible; noncanonical early Christian writings such as the Epistle of Barnabas, Acts of John and Acts of Pilate; the writings of early Church fathers Justin Martyr, Tertullian and Minucius Felix; Gnostic writings; Coptic writings such as the Kebra Nagast; the Catholic Encyclopedia; the works of modern Egyptologists Drs. Erik Hornung, Raymond O. Faulkner, Jan Assman and Barbara S. Lesko; and the works of various theologians, historians and other professional scholars such as Pope Benedict XVI, Jean Doresse, Joseph Campbell, Dr. Roger Beck and Dr. Tryggve N.D. Mettinger.

Even with all of the scholarship put together in Christ in Egypt, there remains much confusion concerning this subject, because many people erroneously believe that the contention is that Horus or Osiris were killed via crucifixion, as allegedly happened to Jesus. In actuality, the most common myths concerning the deaths of Osiris and Horus are that the former was rent into pieces, while the latter was stung by a scorpion, after which both were resurrected. In this regard, the same Greek word used by historian Diodorus Siculus in the first century BCE to describe Horus's resurrection—anastasis—is utilized by later biblical writers in the New Testament to depict Christ's resurrection (e.g., Mt 22:23)."

bendoon
15-07-2012, 01:31 AM
not true:



See M. Cummings, Lives of the Buddha in the Art and Literature of Asia (1982).



See E. J. Thomas, The Life of Buddha as Legend and History (1963)

You blandly say "not true" and then provide no evidence to qualify your statement other than what someone says in a book written a few years ago.

The oldest image of Buddha is a statue dated to 81AD and a coin from 78AD, before then there is absolutely nothing.

logos880
15-07-2012, 01:53 AM
She doesn't lie and she isn't masonic, but she is a fairly mainstream atheist influenced writer.

Here's what she actually said about Horus and cruxcifixion:

"In my book Christ in Egypt: The Horus-Jesus Connection, I delve deeply into various parallels between the Jewish godman Jesus Christ and the Egyptian gods Horus and Osiris. Along with the claim that Horus was born on "December 25th" or the winter solstice of a virgin called Mery comes the contention that he was "crucified between two thieves," as Jesus is depicted to have been in the New Testament. Although I included this motif in my book The Christ Conspiracy: The Greatest Story Ever Sold, this assertion does not originate with me but can be found in older sources, as highlighted in Christ in Egypt ("CIE"), which contains a 40-page chapter on the subject entitled "Was Horus 'Crucified?,'" with 120 footnotes citing primary sources as well as the works of respected Egyptologists and other scholars in relevant fields. This chapter in CIE also provides 18 images to illustrate the various points, such as the abundance of Pagan gods and goddesses in cruciform or cross shapes.

what egyptian text or ancient text references horus' crucifixion? as far as I know there isn't any primary sources on this. btw, Jesus wasn't born on dec 25.

The list of sources cited in the chapter "Was Horus 'Crucified?'" includes: ancient Egyptian primary sources such as the Pyramid Texts, Coffin Texts, Book of the Dead and other artifacts; the writings of the ancient historians Herodotus and Plutarch, philosophers Plato and Philo, and the Egyptian priest Horapollo; the Bible; noncanonical early Christian writings such as the Epistle of Barnabas, Acts of John and Acts of Pilate; the writings of early Church fathers Justin Martyr, Tertullian and Minucius Felix; Gnostic writings; Coptic writings such as the Kebra Nagast; the Catholic Encyclopedia; the works of modern Egyptologists Drs. Erik Hornung, Raymond O. Faulkner, Jan Assman and Barbara S. Lesko; and the works of various theologians, historians and other professional scholars such as Pope Benedict XVI, Jean Doresse, Joseph Campbell, Dr. Roger Beck and Dr. Tryggve N.D. Mettinger.

I have read the entirety of plutarch on this subject and know that he doesn't mention any such crucifixion of horus. plutarch can be read here:

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Plutarch/Moralia/Isis_and_Osiris*/A.html

Even with all of the scholarship put together in Christ in Egypt, there remains much confusion concerning this subject, because many people erroneously believe that the contention is that Horus or Osiris were killed via crucifixion, as allegedly happened to Jesus. In actuality, the most common myths concerning the deaths of Osiris and Horus are that the former was rent into pieces, while the latter was stung by a scorpion, after which both were resurrected. In this regard, the same Greek word used by historian Diodorus Siculus in the first century BCE to describe Horus's resurrection—anastasis—is utilized by later biblical writers in the New Testament to depict Christ's resurrection (e.g., Mt 22:23)."

do you have the reference to this diodorus siculus quote? I'd be interested in the context.

roman piso
15-07-2012, 02:36 AM
Humpty Dumpty sat on a wall,
Humpty Dumpty had a great fall.
All the king's horses and all the king's men
Couldn't put Humpty together again

As an Humptian ... i take this literately .. I am 100% certain . that Humpy Dumpty IS IN FACT an historical Living Egg that sat on the Wall and had a great fall...

I have NO clue whom the KING IS .. just like the Pharaoh in the Moses STORY.. but I am 100% certain this is an historical Event... never-the-less

This story gave me so much faith... the Death of Humpty Dumpty really saddened me :(

exu156
15-07-2012, 04:02 AM
You blandly say "not true" and then provide no evidence to qualify your statement other than what someone says in a book written a few years ago.

The oldest image of Buddha is a statue dated to 81AD and a coin from 78AD, before then there is absolutely nothing.

Clearly you need to read the quotes I posted again.

Before Christianity embarked on its missionary zeal, Buddhist monks ('dharma-bhanakas') were already tecking across Asia. Traveling the well established trade routes they spread their doctrines all the way from Khotan in central Asia to Antioch and Alexandria in the west.

One such visit is documented in 20 BC in Athens. Here a Buddhist philosopher called Zarmarus, part of an embassy from India, made his extreme religious zeal known by setting himself on fire. His tomb became a tourist attraction and is mentioned by several historians. [Source: http://books.google.com.au/books?id=AYUMaikSQ_AC&pg=PA169&lpg=PA169&dq=Zarmarus&source=bl&ots=S9posfZBON&sig=bbu7aG1FiJoJ0QkTVYPyoh1U62s&hl=en&sa=X&ei=GzcCULr5F4TprQfEsLSoBg&ved=0CEMQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=Zarmarus&f=false ]

After the retreat of Alexander the Great came Chandragupta (Sandracottus to the Greeks), founder of the Mauryan empire. He conquered Magadha, and also the Greek kingdoms of the north west and much of northern India. His empire included the northern province of Kosala, where a Hindu reformer Gautama Siddhartha (aka "Shakyammuni Buddha") began advocating his 'Middle Path' between greed and asceticism.

Find out more: Chandragupta Maurya - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

The grandson of Chandragupta, Asoka, ascended the Mauryan throne. Initially a ruthless imperialist he seems to have spent his later life in soul-searching and pondering the afterlife. In an action that anticipated Constantine's religious revolution five hundred years later, Asoka adopted Buddhism as a unifying and pacifying ideology for his vast empire and propagated it's doctrines with all the usual zeal of a new convert.

Judging by his still extant edicts, inscribed on rocks and stone pillars to be found everywhere from Afghanistan to south India, Asoka sought further 'conquest' beyond his frontiers by dispatching Buddhist missionaries in all directions. Carved in stone is Asoka's urging of Forgiveness:

"The killing, death or deportation of a hundredth, or even a thousandth part of those who died during the conquest of Kalinga now pains Beloved-of-the-Gods. Now Beloved-of-the-Gods thinks that even those who do wrong should be forgiven where forgiveness is possible."

Find out more:

http://www.thenagain.info/webchron/india/Asoka.html

Ashoka - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

http://i43.fastpic.ru/big/2012/0715/97/501e79a2cf42307681ce03f97c687597.jpg

Asoka’s rock edict at Girnuri in Guzerat (3rd century BC)

Furthermore:

"There is every reason to believe that the Pitakas [sacred books containing the legends of Buddha] now extant in Ceylon are substantially identical with the books of the southern canon, as settled at the Council of Patna about the year 250 B.C. As no work would have been received into the Canon which were not then believer to be very old, the Pitakas may be approximately placed in the forth century B.C. and parts of them possibly reach back very nearly, if not quite to the time of Gautama (Buddha) himself." - T.W. Rhys Davids Asoka and the Buddha-relics Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society. (1901) pp. 397-410

"Between the language of Buddha and his disciples, and the language between Christ and his apostles, there are strange coincidences. When some of the Buddhist legends and parables sound as if taken from the New Testament, though we know that many of them existed before the beginning of the Christian era. " - Max Muller Three Lectures on the Science of Language, etc., with a Supplement, My Predecessors. 3rd ed. Chicago, 1899, p. 31

"...nothing now remains for the honest man to do but acknowledge the truth, which is that the history of Jesus of Nazareth, as related in the books of the New Testament maybe a copy of that of Buddha, with a mixture of mythology borrowed from other nations." - T.W. Doane Bible Myths and their Parallels in other Religions p. 302

believenothing
15-07-2012, 06:32 AM
It gets really weird when you start to examine what is considered actual history separated from mythology and religion past the time of Christ. So many people (up to half the world) claim to trace their lineage to Genghis Khan. Who was Genghis Khan? Nobody seems to know. None of the artistic depictions (showing a Chinese or Mongolian man) are anywhere near accurate and some of the oldest sources claimed he had red hair and green eyes.

Not only that but there are creepy parallels to the the Enuma Elish Babylonian Creation story regarding Tiamat's rebellion and the elevation of the unskilled shepherd laborer Kingu (Christ IMHO). The Enuma Elish sounds like an establishment concern for a rebellion of another which results in the status quo being maintained by Marduk and the defeat of Tiamat (slaying the dragon archetype... an elite archetype keeping us in our place since we are the dragon). The rebellion is defeated. But the rebellion army itself parallels the much more recent History of the Nation of Archers story about the Mongol Invasion. Genghis Khan is Kingu and apparently it was Marco Polo that found out that a Jesu was his father's name and a sacred name associated with the number 9. His Chingis title actually relates in translation to this Kingu character. Kingu's blood is uses to create mankind. I personally suspect that this is where the biblical Hebrews come in, descended from Kingu as slaves and bred for slavery until liberated. Everything goes back to Babylon. Even Egypt was called Babylon in ancient times. The biblical Egypt isn't even called Egypt, it's Mizraim (or Memphis)

I think history before the 1400s is complete and utter bullshit. There no real proof of a Genghis Kahn or Mongol invasion. No proof of Crusades not even in ruin. Even Muhammad can't be validated and backwards his name is similar to Dumuzi aka Tammuz aka Kingu. Right to left mistranslation just like Roma and Amor or Remus and Sumer. Or Assur and Russa. Nobody knows a goddamn accurate thing and even the dating methods are suspect. I think something happened possibly 2,000 years ago that changed up everything and whomever the real Christ was is associated with this event. If you aren't elite, chances are even a couple centuries ago your ancestors were illiterate and ignorant of history. They would have no way of knowing any better. Academic clubs are cults that kick out those who don't agree with consensus run by psychopaths just like many religious leaders, charities, politicians, corporate CEOs, we're being led by an entire group of pathological lying and empathy-lacking non-humans who look like humans. Who the fuck knows what is true or not? Too much bullshit to sift through.

exu156
15-07-2012, 06:38 AM
It gets really weird when you start to examine what is considered actual history separated from mythology and religion past the time of Christ. So many people (up to half the world) claim to trace their lineage to Genghis Khan. Who was Genghis Khan? Nobody seems to know. None of the artistic depictions (showing a Chinese or Mongolian man) are anywhere near accurate and some of the oldest sources claimed he had red hair and green eyes.

Not only that but there are creepy parallels to the the Enuma Elish Babylonian Creation story regarding Tiamat's rebellion and the elevation of the unskilled shepherd laborer Kingu (Christ IMHO). The Enuma Elish sounds like an establishment concern for a rebellion of another which results in the status quo being maintained by Marduk and the defeat of Tiamat (slaying the dragon archetype... an elite archetype keeping us in our place since we are the dragon). The rebellion is defeated. But the rebellion army itself parallels the much more recent History of the Nation of Archers story about the Mongol Invasion. Genghis Khan is Kingu and apparently it was Marco Polo that found out that a Jesu was his father's name and a sacred name associated with the number 9. His Chingis title actually relates in translation to this Kingu character. Kingu's blood is uses to create mankind. I personally suspect that this is where the biblical Hebrews come in, descended from Kingu as slaves and bred for slavery until liberated. Everything goes back to Babylon. Even Egypt was called Babylon in ancient times. The biblical Egypt isn't even called Egypt, it's Mizraim (or Memphis)

I think history before the 1400s is complete and utter bullshit. There no real proof of a Genghis Kahn or Mongol invasion. No proof of Crusades not even in ruin. Even Muhammad can't be validated and backwards his name is similar to Dumuzi aka Tammuz aka Kingu. Right to left mistranslation just like Roma and Amor or Remus and Sumer. Or Assur and Russa. Nobody knows a goddamn accurate thing and even the dating methods are suspect. I think something happened possibly 2,000 years ago that changed up everything and whomever the real Christ was is associated with this event.

Totally agree. Knowledge went underground and was distorted. The winners wrote history and even today it's followers (unaware that they are merely parroting deception) try by every means possible to convince us of its 'truth'.

Could it be that truth is far stranger, far more amazing than any of us may suppose?

valmar
15-07-2012, 06:56 AM
It gets really weird when you start to examine what is considered actual history separated from mythology and religion past the time of Christ. So many people (up to half the world) claim to trace their lineage to Genghis Khan. Who was Genghis Khan? Nobody seems to know. None of the artistic depictions (showing a Chinese or Mongolian man) are anywhere near accurate and some of the oldest sources claimed he had red hair and green eyes.

Not only that but there are creepy parallels to the the Enuma Elish Babylonian Creation story regarding Tiamat's rebellion and the elevation of the unskilled shepherd laborer Kingu (Christ IMHO). The Enuma Elish sounds like an establishment concern for a rebellion of another which results in the status quo being maintained by Marduk and the defeat of Tiamat (slaying the dragon archetype... an elite archetype keeping us in our place since we are the dragon). The rebellion is defeated. But the rebellion army itself parallels the much more recent History of the Nation of Archers story about the Mongol Invasion. Genghis Khan is Kingu and apparently it was Marco Polo that found out that a Jesu was his father's name and a sacred name associated with the number 9. His Chingis title actually relates in translation to this Kingu character. Kingu's blood is uses to create mankind. I personally suspect that this is where the biblical Hebrews come in, descended from Kingu as slaves and bred for slavery until liberated. Everything goes back to Babylon. Even Egypt was called Babylon in ancient times. The biblical Egypt isn't even called Egypt, it's Mizraim (or Memphis)

I think history before the 1400s is complete and utter bullshit. There no real proof of a Genghis Kahn or Mongol invasion. No proof of Crusades not even in ruin. Even Muhammad can't be validated and backwards his name is similar to Dumuzi aka Tammuz aka Kingu. Right to left mistranslation just like Roma and Amor or Remus and Sumer. Or Assur and Russa. Nobody knows a goddamn accurate thing and even the dating methods are suspect. I think something happened possibly 2,000 years ago that changed up everything and whomever the real Christ was is associated with this event. If you aren't elite, chances are even a couple centuries ago your ancestors were illiterate and ignorant of history. They would have no way of knowing any better. Academic clubs are cults that kick out those who don't agree with consensus run by psychopaths just like many religious leaders, charities, politicians, corporate CEOs, we're being led by an entire group of pathological lying and empathy-lacking non-humans who look like humans. Who the fuck knows what is true or not? Too much bullshit to sift through.

I think I have to agree here...past the time of 600-700 years ago...everything may or may not be utter rubbish. The Vatican has, at times, created false artifacts in order to make it seem that they were right about history. Something along those lines. I don't know everything about history...who can? Even archaeology is something of guessing game! Carbon dating means fuck all these days thanks to the sun's strange behaviour. The Japanese Emperors claimed to be the Descendents of God or something. History really is just plain strange at times...what a mindfuck...

passerbye999
15-07-2012, 07:18 AM
This is why the Nag Hammadi and Dead Sea Scrolls are so important. They give us a peek at a world little known about and they haven't been tampered with. I trust them more than any other ancient text because of this.

valmar
15-07-2012, 09:05 AM
This is why the Nag Hammadi and Dead Sea Scrolls are so important. They give us a peek at a world little known about and they haven't been tampered with. I trust them more than any other ancient text because of this.

Can we be sure that they haven't been tampered with in any way that might compromise the text's legitimacy? We need to be sure of these things before just charging ahead saying they are pure of tampering...just in case.;) Anyone can claim that some writing is pure of being screwed with when it may not be...are the texts consistent in their mannerisms when checking multiple texts that are claimed to have been by the same author? Not that I doubt their historical accuracy....it's just that I like to know that we are reading the original scrolls and not some twisted, tampered version of them...

passerbye999
15-07-2012, 11:14 AM
Can we be sure that they haven't been tampered with in any way that might compromise the text's legitimacy? We need to be sure of these things before just charging ahead saying they are pure of tampering...just in case.;) Anyone can claim that some writing is pure of being screwed with when it may not be...are the texts consistent in their mannerisms when checking multiple texts that are claimed to have been by the same author? Not that I doubt their historical accuracy....it's just that I like to know that we are reading the original scrolls and not some twisted, tampered version of them...

If it weren't for these finds we would know nothing of the essenes or gnostics except commentaries by church authorities. The Nag Hammadi Scrolls had been sealed in a jar for 1600 yrs. the Dead sea scrolls in a cave hidden for two thousand years. No tampering could have been done during that time. Before that there would be no reason too. Since they have been found the originals are on display and can be checked.

tenzingnorgay
15-07-2012, 04:58 PM
what egyptian text or ancient text references horus' crucifixion? as far as I know there isn't any primary sources on this. btw, Jesus wasn't born on dec 25.



I have read the entirety of plutarch on this subject and know that he doesn't mention any such crucifixion of horus. plutarch can be read here:

http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Roman/Texts/Plutarch/Moralia/Isis_and_Osiris*/A.html



do you have the reference to this diodorus siculus quote? I'd be interested in the context.

My post was a quote from Acharya. You can buy her book if you want to know more, or just email her, or just go to her web site and post questions. And, yes, she knows that Jesus was not born December 25.

logos880
15-07-2012, 05:26 PM
This is why the Nag Hammadi and Dead Sea Scrolls are so important. They give us a peek at a world little known about and they haven't been tampered with. I trust them more than any other ancient text because of this.

many people would disagree with you on that:

Dead Sea Scrolls are just another Hoax?

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=77604

logos880
15-07-2012, 05:30 PM
My post was a quote from Acharya. You can buy her book if you want to know more, or just email her, or just go to her web site and post questions. And, yes, she knows that Jesus was not born December 25.

ultimately, I've read siculus and plutarch on this subject, and never saw any mention to this supposed crucifixion of horus. I guess since you are distancing yourself from your earlier quote from archaya that means you can't substantiate her claims either.

if she knows Jesus wasn't born on dec 25th, why keep harping on that date as if it is a parallel when it's not??

don't get me wrong, I'm not in denial about the parallels between Jesus and the pagan christs but I'm only interested in the truth of the matter not journalist sensationalism and half truths.

passerbye999
15-07-2012, 08:15 PM
many people would disagree with you on that:

Dead Sea Scrolls are just another Hoax?

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=77604

You might want to find a credible source to smear the books with doubt. I don't think conspiracy theorists count as credible sources sorry. I will go with the scholars. The Dead Sea Scrolls actually give the most credibility to the Book you follow.

logos880
15-07-2012, 10:24 PM
You might want to find a credible source to smear the books with doubt. I don't think conspiracy theorists count as credible sources sorry. I will go with the scholars. The Dead Sea Scrolls actually give the most credibility to the Book you follow.

I don't think so, the dss contradict the bible on many counts. the point is that scholars and people are not in universal agreement about the dss. besides, there are literally thousands of ancient manuscripts from the the NT and dozens of fully intact copies.

roman piso
15-07-2012, 10:39 PM
I don't think so, the dss contradict the bible on many counts.

It contradicts the New Testament .. i have read many parts of the Dead Sea Scrolls, they are NO virgins in ISAIAH .... which stupid NT Authors mistranslated and now we have retards whom think a virgin female gave birth in 7ad in Jerusalem

logos880
15-07-2012, 10:40 PM
It contradicts the New Testament .. i have read many parts of the Dead Sea Scrolls, they are NO virgins in ISAIAH .... which stupid NT Authors copied and now we have retards whom think a virgin female gave birth in 7ad in Jerusalem

we've already had this discussion, I see no reason to repeat it here.

roman piso
15-07-2012, 10:50 PM
we've already had this discussion, I see no reason to repeat it here.

Since the Dead-Sea-Scroll completely debunk the Christian Myth .. then why bring up the Dead Sea Scrolls

Which one is the Liar.... Isaiah or the Pseudo-Gospel Authors

logos880
15-07-2012, 10:52 PM
Since the Dead-Sea-Scroll completely debunk the Christian Myth .. then why bring up the Dead Sea Scrolls

no...they don't.

Which one is the Liar.... Isaiah or the Pseudo-Gospel Authors

once again, we've had this discussion. FWIW, your above question is a non sequitur.

roman piso
15-07-2012, 10:53 PM
we've had this discussion. FWIW, your above question is a non sequitur.

PICK ONE ... WHO is the Liar ... Isaiah or the Gospel Authors

passerbye999
15-07-2012, 11:04 PM
I don't think so, the dss contradict the bible on many counts. the point is that scholars and people are not in universal agreement about the dss. besides, there are literally thousands of ancient manuscripts from the the NT and dozens of fully intact copies.

Almost the whole OT is in the DSS. They are older than any other translation of the Tanakh or OT. As for The Nag Hammadi Library it is genuine as well. without it we would have very little to go on for the gnostic christians except commentaries about certain texts. The Gospel of Truth is basically a commentary on the NT from ancient times.

The Great isaiah scroll is considered to be genuine and the oldest copy of the text in full.

logos880
15-07-2012, 11:15 PM
PICK ONE ... WHO is the Liar ... Isaiah or the Gospel Authors

no one is lying as there is no contradiction there.

logos880
15-07-2012, 11:18 PM
Almost the whole OT is in the DSS. They are older than any other translation of the Tanakh or OT. As for The Nag Hammadi Library it is genuine as well. without it we would have very little to go on for the gnostic christians except commentaries about certain texts. The Gospel of Truth is basically a commentary on the NT from ancient times.

The Great isaiah scroll is considered to be genuine and the oldest copy of the text in full.

I'm familiar with gnostic texts, my point is that there is not universal agreement regarding them. in terms of reliability, there are far more copies of the NT in existence, which makes the NT high the reliability list. ultimately, you're going to believe what you choose.

passerbye999
15-07-2012, 11:21 PM
I'm familiar with both the dss and nags, my point is that there is not universal agreement regarding either. in terms of reliability, there are far more copies of the NT in existence, which makes the NT high the reliability list. ultimately, you're going to believe what you choose.

This is true about believing but I think personally the unique one is more reliable that is how archeology works so it should be with ancient scrolls.

roman piso
15-07-2012, 11:22 PM
no one is lying as there is no contradiction there.

yes there is ...


LIES (Contradictions)

Mat 1:23
Behold, a virgin [παρθενος] shall be with child and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us

Luk 1:27
To a virgin[παρθενος] espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.


1Co 7:28
But and if thou marry, thou hast not sinned; and if a virgin [παρθενος] marry, she hath not sinned. Nevertheless such shall have trouble in the


2Co 11:2
For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin[παρθενος] to Christ.flesh: but I spare you.

roman piso
15-07-2012, 11:29 PM
Plagiarisms ( false translations, removal of Context) of Isaiah in the New Testament


Mtt 1:23 Virgin with child (Isa 7:14)
Mtt 3:3 Voice in wilderness (Isa 40:3)
Mtt 4:15 A light in darkness (Isa 9:1)
Mtt 8:17 Carried our diseases (Isa 53:4)
Mtt 12:18 Behold My Servant (Isa 42:1)
Mtt 12:21 Hope for Gentiles (Isa 42:4)
Mtt 13:14 Closed eyes and ears (Isa 6:9)
Mtt 15:7 They worship in vain (Isa 29:13)
Mtt 21:13 A house of prayer (Isa 56:7)
Mrk 1:2 Voice in wilderness (Isa 40:3)
Mrk 4:12 Closed eyes and ears (Isa 6:9)
Mrk 7:6 They worship in vain (Isa 29:13)
Mrk 9:48 Fire is not quenched (Isa 66:24)
Mrk 11:17 A house of prayer (Isa 56:7)
Mrk 15:28 Numbered with transgressors (Isa 53:12)
Lke 2:32 Light to the Gentiles (Isa 42:6, 49:6)
Lke 3:4 Voice in wilderness (Isa 40:3)
Lke 4:17 He anointed me to preach (Isa 61:1)
Lke 8:10 Closed eyes and ears (Isa 6:9)
Lke 19:46 A house of prayer (Isa 56:7)
Lke 22:37 Numbered with transgressors (Isa 53:12)
Jhn 1:23 Voice in wilderness (Isa 40:3)
Jhn 6:45 All be taught of God (Isa 54:13)
Jhn 12:38 Who has believed our report? (Isa 53:1)
Jhn 12:39 Closed eyes and ears (Isa 6:10)
Acts 7:48 Heaven is my throne (Isa 66:1)
Acts 8:32 A lamb to the slaughter (Isa 53:7)
Acts 13:34 The blessings of David (Isa 55:3)
Acts 13:47 A light for the Gentiles (Isa 49:6)
Acts 28:25 Closed eyes and ears (Isa 6:9)
Rom 2:24 Blasphemy among Gentiles (Isa 52:5)
Rom 3:15-17 Feet swift to shed blood (Isa 59:7-8)
Rom 9:19-21 Potter and the clay (Isa 29:16)
Rom 9:27 Remnant shall be saved (Isa 10:22)
Rom 9:29 As Sodom and Gomorrah (Isa 1:9)
Rom 9:33 Stone of stumbling (Isa 8:14)
Rom 9:33, 10:11 Believers not disappointed (Isa 28:16)
Rom 10:15 How beautiful the feet (Isa 52:7)
Rom 10:16 Who has believed our report? (Isa 53:1)
Rom 10:20 Found by those who sought me not (Isa 65:1)
Rom 10:21 Disobedient and obstinate people (Isa 65:2)
Rom 11:8 A spirit of stupor (Isa 29:10)
Rom 11:26 Deliverer from Zion (Isa 59:20)
Rom 11:26 When I forgive their sins (Isa 27:9)
Rom 11:34 The mind of the LORD (Isa 40:13)
Rom 14:11 Every knee shall bow (Isa 45:23)
Rom 15:12 Hope for Gentiles (Isa 42:4)
Rom 15:12 The Root of Jesse (Isa 11:10)
Rom 15:21 They shall understand (Isa 52:15)
1Co 1:19 The wisdom of the wise (Isa 29:14)
1Co 2:9 Eye has not seen (Isa 64:4)
1Co 14:21 Speak in strange tongues (Isa 28:11)
1Co 15:32 Tomorrow we may die (Isa 22:13)
1Co 15:54 Death swallowed up (Isa 25:8)
2Co 6:2 Acceptable time, day of salvation (Isa 49:8)
2Co 6:17 Come out from among them (Isa 52:11)
1Pe 1:25 God's word abides forever (Isa 40:6)
1Pe 2:6 Precious corner stone (Isa 28:16)
1Pe 2:8 Stone of stumbling (Isa 8:14)
1Pe 2:22 He committed no sin (Isa 53:9)
1Pe 2:24 By his stripes you were healed (Isa 53:5)
1Pe 3:14 Do not be in fear (Isa 8:12)
Gal 4:27 Rejoice barren woman (Isa 54:1)
Eph 6:14-17 Belt, breastplate, helmet (Isa 11:5, 59:17)
Heb 2:13 The children God has given me (Isa 8:17-18)
Rev 3:7 The key of David (Isa 22:22)

logos880
15-07-2012, 11:33 PM
yes there is ...


LIES (Contradictions)

Mat 1:23
Behold, a virgin [παρθενος] shall be with child and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us

Luk 1:27
To a virgin[παρθενος] espoused to a man whose name was Joseph, of the house of David; and the virgin's name was Mary.


1Co 7:28
But and if thou marry, thou hast not sinned; and if a virgin [παρθενος] marry, she hath not sinned. Nevertheless such shall have trouble in the


2Co 11:2
For I am jealous over you with godly jealousy: for I have espoused you to one husband, that I may present you as a chaste virgin[παρθενος] to Christ.flesh: but I spare you.

this is my last response on this one as this is off topic and redudant...

3933. parthenos

3934 >>
parthenos: a maiden, a virgin
Original Word: παρθένος, ου, ὁ, ἡ
Part of Speech: Noun, Feminine
Transliteration: parthenos
Phonetic Spelling: (par-then'-os)
Short Definition: a virgin
Definition: a maiden, virgin; extended to men who have not known women.

3933 parthénos – properly, a virgin; a woman who has never had sexual relations; a female (virgin), beyond puberty but not yet married; (figuratively) believers when they are pure (chaste), i.e. faithful to Christ their heavenly Bridegroom (2 Cor 11:2; Rev 14:4).

^look at the meaning of the word.

passerbye999
15-07-2012, 11:50 PM
this is my last response on this one as this is off topic and redudant...



^look at the meaning of the word.

I believe though I may be mistaken the word is "alwas" in Isaiah.
Anyhow the translation to english from hebrew in the great scroll is young woman. It could have an exegesis of virgin but that is not the translation.

roman piso
15-07-2012, 11:52 PM
this is my last response on this one as this is off topic and redudant...



^look at the meaning of the word.

Then lets look at other authors whom uses Parthenos ...

Strabo, Geography CHAPTER IV.
in following the coast, 4400 stadia. In this city is a temple of the Virgin [“Parthenos], some goddess, after whom the promontory, which is in front of the city, at the distance of 100 stadia, is called Parthenium. It has a shrine of the goddess and a statue. Between the city

Apollodorus. Epit. E.6
Electryon purposed to make war on the Teleboans, but first he committed the kingdom to Amphitryon along with his daughter Alcmena, binding him by oath to keep her a virgin [παρθένος] until his return

Plut. Brut. 13
Porcia, as has been said, was a daughter of Cato, and when Brutus, who was her cousin, took her to wife, she was not a virgin [παρθενίας,]; she was, however, still very young,

Plut. De Faciae 25
Moreover, conceding a point perhaps to ancient tradition also, we shall say that she was held to be Artemis on the ground that she is a virgin [παρθένον] and sterile but is helpful and beneficial to other females

Flavius Josephus, The Life of Flavius Josephus
For when the siege of Jotapata was over, and I was among the Romans, I was kept with much Care, by means of the great respect that Vespasian showed me. Moreover, at his command, I [Joseph] (;)) married a virgin [παρθένος], who was from among the captives of that country

EVERY Greek author whom uses the "παρθένος" is always translated and referring to a VIRGIN....

The Greek word for "MAIDAN-YOUNG WOMAN" is "κοράσιον" [KORASION]
meaning "a little girl, a young girl; a girl, maiden."

logos880
15-07-2012, 11:56 PM
I believe though I may be mistaken the word is "alwas" in Isaiah.
Anyhow the translation to english from hebrew in the great scroll is young woman. It could have an exegesis of virgin but that is not the translation.

the word used in isaiah is actually "almah." the point isn't whether or not the NT was actually referencing isaiah or not. what matters is what the NT authors meant with their choice of word.

18 This is how the birth of Jesus the Messiah came about[d]: His mother Mary was pledged to be married to Joseph, but before they came together, she was found to be pregnant through the Holy Spirit. 19 Because Joseph her husband was faithful to the law, and yet[e] did not want to expose her to public disgrace, he had in mind to divorce her quietly.

passerbye999
16-07-2012, 12:05 AM
the word used in isaiah is actually "almah." the point isn't whether or not the NT was actually referencing isaiah or not. what matters is what the NT authors meant with their choice of word.

Yeah I found this.

[right to left: "...nh ha'almah harah veyoledet ben veqara shmo immanuel"]
[Isaiah 7:14b, Great Isaiah Scroll from Qumran]


Matthew 1:23 quotes the 2nd century BC(E) Greek Septuagint text of Isaiah 7:14:
The virgin shall be with child
and shall bear a son,
and they shall call his name Immanu-El.
The Greek word for "virgin" in both the Greek Septuagint and Matthew is parthenos, which means a virgin female.

The Hebrew word in Isaiah 7:14 is almah. This rare noun (used 7x in Hebrew Bible) signifies a young woman, a girl, or an unmarried maiden (Gen 24:43; Exod 2:8; Isa 7:14; Ps 68:26; Prov 30:19; Song 1:3; 6:8). The focus of almah is on youth, not virginity.

But the spiritual and moral ethos in Hebrew culture assumed that young unmarried girls had no sexual experience. It was assumed that an almah was a virgin.

The verbal root of almah [alam] means to be concealed, hidden, or covered. For example, God hides his eyes from looking on the sins of his people (Isa 1:15). God hides certain facts from his prophet (2 Kings 4:27). And the psalmist asks why God hides himself in times of trouble (Ps 10:1).

Moses' sister, Miryam, is an almah or "girl" (Exod 2:8) who followed her brother's basket-ark down the Nile. The Bible doesn't say how much older she was than Moses, but the story implies she was not yet a teenager who had reached puberty. Presumably, she was a virgin.

Just after killing Goliath, the shepherd boy David is called an elem, the masculine form of almah (1 Sam 17:56). English Bibles render the word "young man, youth, young fellow, stripling [adolescent]."




Twice, the Jewish translators who produced the Greek Septuagint (LXX) in the 2nd century BCE rendered almah as parthenos:

Gen 24:43 — Isaac's future wife Rebekah is "the maiden/virgin [ha'almah]"
Isa 7:14 — Isaiah's wife is "the maiden/virgin" [ha'almah]
In the five other occurences of almah the LXX translators used neanis (young girl) (Exod 2:8; Ps 68:26; Prov 30:19; Song 1:3; 6:8).

At Isa 7:14 the Great Isaiah Scroll (1QIsa1) reads ha'almah harah, "the virgin has conceived" or "shall conceive" [prophetic perfect]:




[Top]

Is an Almah a Parthenos?
Genesis 24 describes the young, pre-married Rebekah using three Hebrew terms. For each of these terms, the Septuagint has parthenos.

And the girl [ha'na'arah] was very beautiful, a virgin [betulah],
and no man had relations with her. (v. 16a)

...the maiden [ha'almah] who comes out to draw (water) (v. 43a)

There are semantic differences between the three words:

• girl (Heb. na'arah) — relates to gender
• virgin (Heb. betulah) — relates to sexual experience
• maiden (Heb. almah) — relates to marriage status
In describing Rebekah they are conceptually identical: a na'arah is a betulah is an almah — and is (in Greek) a parthenos

roman piso
16-07-2012, 12:23 AM
The Dead-Sea-Scroll also proves another things.. the fallacy called the "Septuagint" which was created after the Destruction of the Temple to supplement the Gospels...

http://www.ivantic.net/Ostale_knjiige/Pisos_further_writings_Vol1.pdf

The 'Greek' Gospel authors needed more familiarity with the
existing Hebrew holy books, But they needed a fluent
translation from which to work in composing the Jesus Fables..

they needed a fluent translation from which to work in composing his stories about Jesus

Herod Agrippa -I-I supervise a translation into Greek of the
Hebrew Torah, Prophets and Psalms, during the approximate years
70 to 80. Until the translation ’s completion, they would help him
with the Hebrew words and meanings. Thereafter he would work from
the Greek translation itself which where also dictated into the Jewish Antiquities

He dictated into his Jewish Antiquities "about the year 90
a fanciful account of how this translation had come about several
centuries, THey makes the story obviously fiction by writing of the
twelve tribes as in effect still existing during Kink Ptolemy’s
reign, as well as writing I Maccabees

In Josephus, we find the letter of Aristeas, where Josephus goes on to hint about his editing the Greek septuagint (Book XII, Chap. 2, verse 2). The Greek Septuagint is also called the 'LXX' or 'the Seventy'. It is alluded to in Luke 10:17.

Luke 10:1
After this the Lord appointed seventy-two


Josephus VITA
He also enjoined them to send seventy of their principal men to make a defense for them as to the accusation laid against them. So when the twelve messengers came to their countrymen at Ecbatana, and found that they had no designs of innovation at all, they persuaded them to send the seventy men also; who, not at all suspecting what would come, sent them accordingly. So these seventy went down to Caesarea, together with the twelve ambassadors; where Varus met them with the king's forces, and slew them all, together with the [twelve] (9) ambassadors, and made an expedition against the Jews of Ecbatana. But one there was of the seventy who escaped

Josephus, Contra Apion II, 23.
However, our antiquity is sufficiently established by the Egyptian, Chaldean, and Phoenician records, not to mention the numerous Greek historians. In addition to those already cited, Theophilus (Luke 1:3, Acts 1:1)., Theodotus, Mnaseas, Aristophanes, Hermogenes, Euhemerus, Conon, Zopyrion, and may be, many more.

Suetonius, Lives of the Twelve Caesars, Life of Domitian 10. Pen. p. 301

Then Hermogenes of Tarsus died because of some incautious allusions that he had introduced into a historical work; and the slaves who acted as his copyists were crucified.