Eating Disorders: The Dark Side of Vegetarianism?

[plam]

For me vegetarianism and especially veganism
have always been clear signs of eating disorders
but it's good to see it officially published.

The world health organisation has also recently
included vegetarianism as a mental disorder.

Eating Disorders: The Dark Side of Vegetarianism? (http://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/animals-and-us/201009/eating-disorders-the-dark-side-vegetarianism)

I don't know if Rory Freedman and Kim Barnouin are bitches, but judging by the cover photo on their book, they are skinny. Rory (a former model) and Kim (a modeling agent) are the authors of Skinny Bitch -- "a no-nonsense tough-love guide for savvy girls who want to stop eating crap and start looking fabulous!" Rule number one: quit eating meat.

Going veg is sensible advice. In my view, the case against eating animals is strong on moral, environmental, and health grounds. But a woman named Staci Giani made me wonder whether there is sometimes a dark side to giving up meat. Staci is a thirty-something ex-vegetarian who lives in an eco-community an hour south of Asheville. I interviewed her for the chapter on the human-meat relationship in my book new book, Some We Love, Some We Hate, Some We Eat: Why It Is So Hard To Think Straight About Animals.


Things were going fine until I asked Staci why she quit eating meat in the first place. She said that she became a vegetarian when she was a teenager. Then she dropped the bombshell: "My vegetarianism was tied up with my eating disorder."

She went on: "Being a vegetarian was a way for me to have more control over my body by taking the fat out of my diet. Fat was the big evil. Emotionally I was in a tough position in my life at seventeen. Vegetarianism gave me something to hold onto."
Looking back on her own experience, Stacy thinks that for some women, giving up meat is not so much a matter of ethics but a politically acceptable form of extreme weight control.

What she said made my head spin. I know a lot of long-term vegetarians, and while I eat meat, I have always thought their life-style was admirable.

What the Research Says About Vegetarianism and Disordered Eating

As soon as I returned home from our interview, I pulled up Google Scholar on my computer and typed "vegetarianism" and "eating disorders" into the search bar. In a millisecond, a slew of scientific studies popped up. I have listed many of them at the end of this blog. But to save you the trouble of digging them up, here is brief summary of what they reported:

-Female college vegetarians are more likely than meat eaters to feel guilty after they eat, be more preoccupied with being thin, and are more likely to use laxatives, extreme exercise, and vomiting to lose weight.

-Teenage and adult vegetarians are four times as likely as omnivores to engage in binge eating.

-Vegetarian adolescents in both Turkey and Australia show greater concern over their appearance and engage in more extreme eating behaviors than meat-eaters.

-Finnish vegetarian women have higher levels of depression and lower levels of self-esteem than non-vegetarians.

-College students who avoid meat are more obsessed with their weight and diet more often than meat eaters. They are also more inclined to agree with the statement, "If given the opportunity to eliminate all my nutritional needs safely and cheaply by taking a pill, I would."

I was stunned. The next day, I mentioned my discovery to my colleague Candice Boan-Lenzo, a psychologist who has not eaten meat for fifteen years. Did she know that vegetarians are at higher risk for developing eating disorders?

"Oh yes," she says. "I tell my graduate students about it every semester."
"What do they say?" I ask.
"They don't believe me," she says.

Is The Skinny Bitch Diet Harmful To Women?

According to the Humane Research Council, there are twice as many female than male vegetarians. Several years ago, I reviewed the scientific literature on sex differences in the treatment of animals. You will not be surprised to find that, as a rule, women are more concerned about animal suffering than men. I am sure most female vegetarians give up meat out of concern for animals and the environment, not from a pathological desire to lose weight. However, there is no denying that meat-avoidance can be associated with eating problems, especially in women. (Rory and Kim even allude to the dangers of the Skinny Bitch diet, telling readers, "Don't be a fat pig anymore...But don't go anorexic on us, either.") The fact is that women are much more susceptible to eating disorders than men. Indeed, one recent study reported a female to male ratio of 9 to 1 for anorexia nervosa and 30 to 1 for bulimia nervosa.

The Skinny Bitch diet book asks readers, "Are you sick and tired of being fat?" If the answer is yes -- which it often is among teenage girls and young women -- they have the answer: Stop Eating Animals!" For some women (we don't know how many) this is bad advice. Eating disorders are serious. Anorexia, bulimia, and binge eating affect eight million Americans a year. And, with a fatality rate of between five and ten percent, anorexia is among the most dangerous of psychiatric disorders.

More research is needed on the relationship between eating disorders and vegetarianism. I am still convinced that for most people, a plant-based diet is good arternative to eating animals. But it is also clear to me that that the Skinny Bitch admonition that Vegetarianism = Healthy = Skinny is, at best, simplistic and is sometimes - dead wrong.

Hal Herzog is Professor of Psychology at Western Carolina University and author of Some We Love, Some We Hate, Some We Eat: Why It's So Hard To Think Straight About Animals.

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Articles On The Connection Between Eating Disorders and Vegetarianism

Bas, M., Karabudak, E., & Kiziltan, G. (2005). Vegetarianism and eating disorders: Association between eating attitudes and other psychological factors among Turkish adolescents. Appetite, 44(3), 309-315.

Hormes, J. M., Catanese, D., Bauer, R, & Rozin, P. (2006). Links between meat avoidance, negative eating attitudes, and disordered eating behaviors. Poster session presented at the annual meeting of the American Psychological Association.

Klopp, S. A., Heiss, C. J., & Smith, H. S. (2003). Self-reported vegetarianism may be a marker for college women at risk for disordered eating. Journal of the American Dietetic Association, 103(6), 745-747.

Lindeman, M., Stark, K., & Latvala, K. (2000). Vegetarianism and eating-disordered thinking. Eating Disorders, 8(2), 157-165.

Lindeman, M. (2002). The state of mind of vegetarians: Psychological well-being or distress. Ecology of Food and Nutrition, 41, 75-86.

Martins, Y.., Pliner, P., & O'Connoer, R. (1999). Restrained eating among vegetarians" Does a vegetarian eating style mask concerns about weight? Appetite, 32, 145-154.

Neumark-Sztainer, D., Story, M., Resnick, M., & Blum, R. (1997). Adolescent vegetarians. A behavioral profile of a school-based population in Minnesota. Archives of Pediatrics and Adolescent Medicine, 151(8), 833-838.

O'Connor, M. A., Touyz, S. W., Dunn, S. M., & Beumont, P. J. (1987). Vegetarianism in anorexia nervosa? A review of 116 consecutive cases. The Medical Journal of Australia, 147(11-12), 540-542.

Robinson-O'Brian, R., Perry, C. L.,Wall, M. M., Story, M., & Neumark-Sztainer, D. (2009). Adolescent and young adult vegetarianism: Better dietary intake and weight outcomes but increased risk of disordered eating behaviors. Journal of the American Dietetic Association, 109, 648-655.

Worsley, A., & Skrzypiec, G. (1997). Teenage vegetarianism: Beauty or the beast? Nutrition Research, 17(3), 391-404.

[hypnoticspectre]

you take too much of a scientific seat my friend
vegetarianism is about conscious growth, if you want to carry on with a catlike mentality sure, but others tend to try alternatives in life. If people end up with an eating disorder then I bet 99% of the time its a mental disclarity not because of eating veg and some dairy...

[the lost]

you take too much of a scientific seat my friend
vegetarianism is about conscious growth, if you want to carry on with a catlike mentality sure, but others tend to try alternatives in life. If people end up with an eating disorder then I bet 99% of the time its a mental disclarity not because of eating veg and some dairy...

What, mental disclarity like some yogi on the other side of the world implying that you are evil by eating meat, making you worry that you wont advance spiritually if you eat meat?

Making people feel guilty is a strong theme amongst vegans that ive noticed. I think that could cause an impressionable young teen to worry about their diet to the point of endangering their health.

I think ive seen you also state that a veggie/vegan diet is not for everyone.

Also the article isnt saying that its the 'veg and some diary' diet causing the problems.

Even your reply to plam has an type of insult just cause he chooses to eat meat.

There is no proof that abstaining from meat makes you more spiritually aware, or helps you down that path.Most people who believe in that way of thinking also believe in the power of prayer/blessings/projecting positive energy on to things, so why couldnt they 'bless' their food to make it neutral? (and maybe even 'bless' it again to make it positive).

[jconnar]

There is no proof that abstaining from meat makes you more spiritually aware, or helps you down that path.

The proof is in your own personal experience.

If you don't have that experience, then you have no proof for yourself.

Eat meat because you want to eat meat.

Eat vegetables because you want to eat vegetables.

Feeling that you have to eat meat or vegetables because someone else is, or someone else has told you is just dogma/indoctrination.

[the lost]

The proof is in your own personal experience.

If you don't have that experience, then you have no proof for yourself.

Eat meat because you want to eat meat.

Eat vegetables because you want to eat vegetables.

Feeling that you have to eat meat or vegetables because someone else is, or someone else has told you is just dogma/indoctrination.

You're more likely to be forced/coerced into avoiding meat, than being made to eat it.

Maybe avoiding meat therefore missing out on nutrients causes light headedness giving a feeling of being enlightened :D jk :o

[believenothing]

The proof is in your own personal experience.

If you don't have that experience, then you have no proof for yourself.

Eat meat because you want to eat meat.

Eat vegetables because you want to eat vegetables.

Feeling that you have to eat meat or vegetables because someone else is, or someone else has told you is just dogma/indoctrination.

Agreed. The human digestive system does more closely resemble an herbivore than a carnivore, but it is still a hybrid of the two. Chimps, our 'closest relative' might be mostly vegetarian, but they will occasionally eat meat.

There are all sorts of evils going into processed foods, not just cruelty to animals although that is a big one. If you choose not to eat meat because of cruelty to animals, it won't make a difference to those animals unless you can convince a meaningful number of people's perceptions. That's nearly impossible.

Also, the people cultivating your vegetarian food might (and are most likely to) be meat eaters. Where do you draw the line? The energy company that produced the power to make those veggie burgers or whatever was probably staffed my meat eaters.

So if people want to make the choice, they should take these things into account and do not cave to third party pressure. If you want to do it for health purposes, just keep in mind that meat proteins are vital for healing and nourishment in humans. Travis Barker was a vegetarian and to heal his burns was told to eat meat for the first time in 25 years and it worked. I've read articles that he lives a vegan lifestyle referencing his accident, but these might even be taken out of context. He may also have resumed a vegan diet. If he did, that's good for him. But he did eat meat because it's good for our bodies.

Even if animals are conscious creatures, it's a catch 22. If vampires were real people and great to be around and just made everybody feel wonderful in their presence, yet they sucked people's blood to their deaths, could you blame 'em? Some of you would. I don't think I would. I would just avoid them.

[the lost]

Agreed. The human digestive system does more closely resemble an herbivore than a carnivore, but it is still a hybrid of the two. Chimps, our 'closest relative' might be mostly vegetarian, but they will occasionally eat meat.

There are all sorts of evils going into processed foods, not just cruelty to animals although that is a big one. If you choose not to eat meat because of cruelty to animals, it won't make a difference to those animals unless you can convince a meaningful number of people's perceptions. That's nearly impossible.

Also, the people cultivating your vegetarian food might (and are most likely to) be meat eaters. Where do you draw the line? The energy company that produced the power to make those veggie burgers or whatever was probably staffed my meat eaters.

So if people want to make the choice, they should take these things into account and do not cave to third party pressure. If you want to do it for health purposes, just keep in mind that meat proteins are vital for healing and nourishment in humans. Travis Barker was a vegetarian and to heal his burns was told to eat meat for the first time in 25 years and it worked. I've read articles that he lives a vegan lifestyle referencing his accident, but these might even be taken out of context. He may also have resumed a vegan diet. If he did, that's good for him. But he did eat meat because it's good for our bodies.

Even if animals are conscious creatures, it's a catch 22. If vampires were real people and great to be around and just made everybody feel wonderful in their presence, yet they sucked people's blood to their deaths, could you blame 'em? Some of you would. I don't think I would. I would just avoid them.

Good post (except the bit about the vampires :D)

Not to pick at your post but we are more closer in design to other omnivores. I cant name them but someone made a post a few months ago naming them and how we are more similar to them than either herbivores or carnivores.

[robbyblade]

Our systems are closest to wolves.

The two differences are length, and acidity. Ours are longer with a little less acidity.The two differences balance each other out. Theirs just works a few hours faster. They get the same end result.

Nothing digests better for humans than RAW meat/fat. NOTHING!

We can eat a little fruit though. I only use it for working out really hard. The carbs save me from breaking down more proteins than I normally would. I really only use bananas, berries, and raw honey.

Grains are the worst food. They are not human food. They literally destroy the digestive system.

We cannot break down the cellulose surrounding the nutrients in vegetables. That is a fact. Vegetarians can argue all they want. They are wrong.

[psilocybin]

Everyone is right, some just more than others.

While I can't locate a source of raw meat here, I do enjoy raw seafood and fish (sushi, oysters etc). I also do enjoy raw beef Japanese style.

However my main diet is veggies and fruit. I am dropping bread.

What about rye bread, buckwheat robbyblade?

[plam]

The point of this article is not about
the right or wrong food choices
it's about the psychological reasons in making these choices.

The conclusion is that going vegetatian
is very often connected to one's desire to lose weight.
Now we know how fashion dictates the trends in people's weight
At the moment the norm seems to be the skinny bitch.
Which is also unhealthy.

On the other hand people are getting fatter and fatter
because if increased availability of processed food.
So vegetarianism is promoted as a way out of it.
The sure way to lose weight.

For me, this is again part of the elite's agenda to keep people sick
On one hand, the processed food make people sick and fat
and on the other hand vegetarianism is promoted to fight that
but in itself vegetarianism is not the perfect diet for people.

It's a win-win situation for the elite and
they are making money through both channels
which is always their strategy.

The optimum diet for people includes a variety of
animal products combined with clean fruits and vegetables.
All foods must come from small farms where both
animals and plants are treated properly.
Ideally most food should be home grown.

Seeds and nuts in moderation.
Grains and legumes very rarely.

As in regards with meat, we should go back
to eating more animals organs.
As for fruits and plants, we should make sure
they are ripe, with high degree of BRIX.

Finally, the key to health is
eating as little as possible
but making sure one's food comes from different sources.

The varied diet is the number one reason why we became
the masters of this planet. It is no surprise that the elite
is using food to subdue and control the masses.
They treat people as non-humans.

[unicorny]

I think that the link between veggetarianism and eating disorders is more to do with fussy eaters and control, those people choose to call themselves vegetarian rather than just be dubbed a fussy eater who doesn't like most foods. My cousin is one of theese she only eats chips, cheese and the odd can of soup. I'm not sure how she has survived. but with a diet like that you will feel depressed fairly quickly she is missing out on so many essential nutrients that are essential for normal healthy brain function.

[plam]

I think that the link between veggetarianism and eating disorders is more to do with fussy eaters and control, those people choose to call themselves vegetarian rather than just be dubbed a fussy eater who doesn't like most foods. My cousin is one of theese she only eats chips, cheese and the odd can of soup. I'm not sure how she has survived. but with a diet like that you will feel depressed fairly quickly she is missing out on so many essential nutrients that are essential for normal healthy brain function.

Fussy eating is an eating disorder.

[buddhabuddha]

you take too much of a scientific seat my friend
vegetarianism is about conscious growth, if you want to carry on with a catlike mentality sure, but others tend to try alternatives in life. If people end up with an eating disorder then I bet 99% of the time its a mental disclarity not because of eating veg and some dairy...

What is conscious growth?

[unicorny]

Fussy eating is an eating disorder.

exactly and tagging yourself as a vegetarian is just one way of making it more socially acceptable. I'm vegetarian myself, but I eat everything and choose not to eat meat, not for worries over killing animals, but because of the lack of reverence that is involved in the factory farming and killing methods in society.

[plam]

exactly and tagging yourself as a vegetarian is just one way of making it more socially acceptable. I'm vegetarian myself, but I eat everything and choose not to eat meat, not for worries over killing animals, but because of the lack of reverence that is involved in the factory farming and killing methods in society.

That's a sensible approach. ;)

[hypnoticspectre]

I do eat meat though I dont particularly like beef & feels heavy on my system.
Fish and occasionally lamb is best for me.

Conscious growth is about purging your life of false beliefs and assumptions and discovering our desires, outside of any social conditioning.

[icke_is_right]

Plam believes that the inbreeds are trying to kill us by making us all vegetarian, yet their own organisation that he's quoted (The World Health Organisation) think's it's an eating disorder. I little weakness in the theory and hence people are pumping themselves stupid with animal products left right and center still, with no sign of giving up. So, I disagree with this one, in fact I'd say it rather more points to eating animal products as a way of forwarding their agenda.

In the thread on Anger, Plam claimed to be the biggest seller of Cheese in London. (I don't believe a word of it, of course but you might, you couldn't have Plam's level of ability and sit posting rubbish, (it is rubbish but who could keep up with the output to counter it all!?) on this forum all day and cut it in the cut throat London business world). Therefore, if we take this as true, Plam will be profiting by knowingly selling pasteurised and antibiotic filled food to thousands of people. You couldn't be the biggest supplier of cheese without doing this because that is what's mostly available in London. Personally I think this is unethical because most people realise that such food is poison, should be unpasteurised and grass fed. So preaching one thing here and claiming to do another.

I worry about the people listening to Plam because, Plam was unable to read a simple X/Y graph. Totally incapable when he took on the debate in gold. Now, if this was a simple mistake, fair enough but it wasn't and Plam proved the point. Again, I would expect most 11 year olds to grasp this.

There are some intelligent people on this forum and they are frightened by the lack of intelligence displayed in people. Be careful who you listen to or just carry on and deal with the consequences later on in life.

[plam]

Hehe, here comes my own personal forum nemesis - icke_is_right
He follows me around like a cold shadow
The man's so obsessed with my persona
that he screams my name during sex :D

p.s. I said I sell THE FINEST cheese, you idiot
not that I'm the biggest seller of cheese - I wish!

What a plonker! :D

[hypnoticspectre]

well Plam you do like to push those Veggies buttons, tut tut :p

[plam]

well Plam you do like to push those Veggies buttons, tut tut :p

I don't mind - any publicity is good! :D

Look now some people will think
I'm the biggest seller of cheese in London!
Whohoo! :D

[hypnoticspectre]

Pity you dont live in Cheshire, I luv the Blue stuff!

http://www.joseph-heler.co.uk/uploads/imguploads/thumbnails/8w2ov6.jpg

[icke_is_right]

Hehe, here comes my own personal forum nemesis - icke_is_right
He follows me around like a cold shadow
The man's so obsessed with my persona
that he screams my name during sex :D

p.s. I said I sell THE FINEST cheese, you idiot
not that I'm the biggest seller of cheese - I wish!

What a plonker! :D

It was you, who started with the BS, it is hard to not come on this forum and not be confronted by your rubbish. I just come in and remind everyone every now and again. Maybe loads of you don't care about the truth. You've set yourself up as some sort of health guru and seemingly don't know much, yet that doesn't stop you. You constantly go on about not being vegetarian/vegan.

Unlike you, I will come back and correct my mistake. I did misquote you but it was the only thing that we got feedback on. This could mean that you sell a couple of 2kg cheese a year, it could be interpreted as anything.

Again, you clearly state that they are out to turn us vegetarian when the World Health Organisation, says it differently. Why is that? What's the evidence that they wish to make us so? Come on show some proof. We appear to be eating more animal products than ever before and most people cannot get hold of clean product, yet you go on. The majority cannot get hold of clean animal products, what do you suggest that they do?

[plam]

Again, you clearly state that they are out to turn us vegetarian when the World Health Organisation, says it differently. Why is that? What's the evidence that they wish to make us so? Come on show some proof. We appear to be eating more animal products than ever before and most people cannot get hold of clean product, yet you go on. The majority cannot get hold of clean animal products, what do you suggest that they do?

They always play a double game.
It's quite clever as it really confuses the targets.

If people can not get hold of clean animal products
they shouldn't eat them - full stop.
The same applies for any type of food.

But unless you live on mars
I don's see why you wouldn't be able to get clean food.
Besides we mustn't get too obsessed about it either
Just trying our best possible.

But excluding animals product on the basis that it's cruel to animals
or on the basis that it's unhealthy is wrong, because it's not true.

[icke_is_right]

They always play a double game.
It's quite clever as it really confuses the targets.

If people can not get hold of clean animal products
they shouldn't eat them - full stop.
The same applies for any type of food.

But unless you live on mars
I don's see why you wouldn't be able to get clean food.
Besides we mustn't get too obsessed about it either
Just trying our best possible.

But excluding animals product on the basis that it's cruel to animals
or on the basis that it's unhealthy is wrong, because it's not true.

I think we must get quite obsessed because it's a big subject. I'm learning about wildfood and now able to start eating fresh, non chemical, non farmed greens which is about as good as it's going to get. This takes a lot of time to learn. I think wild food is the way to go. I do not hunt but would do it if I needed to.

What people must understand is that most vegetarians have horrendous diets. Most people in the west do, but let's focus on just vegetarian people. It is no surprise that they are unhealthy. Processed vegetarian meals are horrendous, so is the high fat content of most diets. If they are vegetarian they will be consuming any amount of crap milk products.

I thrive on my diet now but it is not as good as I'd like it. The cost of organic fruit and veg is horrendous. I am enjoying masses of free greens. I stand back in awe at how many vitamins and the high mineral content of nettles, which I consume by the shopping bag full. The thing is this, no one can believe that I'm 43 because I look 10 years younger. I can do more than most teenagers. Blah, blah, blah. I haven't eaten meat for 17 years.

Let's say that eating animals is OK. I'm still concerned about the way that animals are farmed in factories, I'm concerned about they way that they are treated, I'm concerned about them being given antibiotics as a matter of course (even organic) because of their cramped conditions. If this wasn't the case, it would be more acceptable. I am concerned that humans should be advancing beyond any sort of cruelty. No tribal elder is going to condone factory farming, it's insane. I'm very concerned about the poor vibration that this leads to and the state of the earth. We talk about this in humans, what about the animals. Further, some years ago, abbatoires were centralised, which makes me more suspicious of this negative energy.

I opted out of this system as much as possible and will continue to do so. I do not need meat, I'm living proof of it. When I see a video of a man/woman bringing down a healthy cow and dispatching it with their vegetarian teeth, then breaking open the skin with their teeth and consuming all parts (ie a bit from each and drinking the blood) I promise you I'll believe that we're meant to eat meat. It ain't going to happen but I'm all eyes when it does.

I'd promote getting wild food or sources of other food that I'm unaware of. I wouln't continue on this present line.

[plam]

Wild food is the best no doubt but it's a luxury
No wonder the so called royals go hunting.

I've never said that people can not live on vegetarian diet
Heck, they do it even on a vegan diet
Some people fast for 28 days on water only.
But it is the MIND that does that.
What the body REALLY wants is different matter.

People have always consumed a varied diet including animals products
which means that we have developed the necessary metabolism
Even if we assume that first man was a vegetarian
It will now take thousands (if not million of years) to develop
a metabolic system for purely non-animal foods.

[icke_is_right]

Wild food is the best no doubt but it's a luxury
No wonder the so called royals go hunting.

I've never said that people can not live on vegetarian diet
Heck, they do it even on a vegan diet
Some people fast for 28 days on water only.
But it is the MIND that does that.
What the body REALLY wants is different matter.

People have always consumed a varied diet including animals products
which means that we have developed the necessary metabolism
Even if we assume that first man was a vegetarian
It will now take thousands (if not million of years) to develop
a metabolic system for purely non-animal foods.

Because we've done something for a long time, doesn't mean that we've got it right. Say for instance, we were hit by a catastrophic flood 10,000+ years ago. The people then would have eaten anything that they could find. This trend may well have continued. People have been eating grains for thousands of years. Doesn't make them great. So, sorry that line doesn't sit well with me. I think we've been getting it wrong for thousands of years and now it's about time it changed and it will.

The mind definitely lusts after loads of different things eg chocolate but I put meat in the same catagory. Meat is highly addictive and just because we like it, doesn't mean it's good for us. So far, I haven't seen any cancer therapy where the main constituent of diet was meat. Always, always, the wonder foods are found in plants. The healing ability is found in plants.

I an many others are not living but thriving on good vegan diets. I've done non pasteurised cheese (organic) and giving it up, only lead to more health benefits............been there, done that. Also, many years ago, I ate meat. All through my life I've trained, never have I had to do so little training to stay in shape and to be able to maintain strength and stamina. This is from experience. Again, I say to those who haven't tried this for periods of many months, it's hard but there are rewards. If you've not tried it, then how do you know? All the literature is skewed toward us having crap diets. One has to go beyond that. People like me have and chucked convention ALL the way out of the window. It takes determination to do this. Again, unless you've tried it I can't see how you can see if it's true, how can one comment?

I believe that we've been doing it wrong for years.

[plam]

It's a question of metabolic system that we inherit through our genes.

On grains, I think we haven't fully developed the metabolic
process to digest them properly so it's maybe ok to opt out now.
After eating grains we feel tired - hard to digest.

[robbyblade]

What about rye bread, buckwheat robbyblade?

Grains are grains. There is no benefit to eating them, unless you are stranded and starving somewhere. They are just complex sugars.

A piece of bread won't kill you by itself that one time, but why eat it at all when you can eat something better, something OPTIMAL that doesn't hurt you?

[robbyblade]

Because we've done something for a long time, doesn't mean that we've got it right. Say for instance, we were hit by a catastrophic flood 10,000+ years ago. The people then would have eaten anything that they could find. This trend may well have continued. People have been eating grains for thousands of years. Doesn't make them great. So, sorry that line doesn't sit well with me. I think we've been getting it wrong for thousands of years and now it's about time it changed and it will.

The mind definitely lusts after loads of different things eg chocolate but I put meat in the same catagory. Meat is highly addictive and just because we like it, doesn't mean it's good for us. So far, I haven't seen any cancer therapy where the main constituent of diet was meat. Always, always, the wonder foods are found in plants. The healing ability is found in plants.

I an many others are not living but thriving on good vegan diets. I've done non pasteurised cheese (organic) and giving it up, only lead to more health benefits............been there, done that. Also, many years ago, I ate meat. All through my life I've trained, never have I had to do so little training to stay in shape and to be able to maintain strength and stamina. This is from experience. Again, I say to those who haven't tried this for periods of many months, it's hard but there are rewards. If you've not tried it, then how do you know? All the literature is skewed toward us having crap diets. One has to go beyond that. People like me have and chucked convention ALL the way out of the window. It takes determination to do this. Again, unless you've tried it I can't see how you can see if it's true, how can one comment?

I believe that we've been doing it wrong for years.

I've tried every way of eating there is.

You would starve in a field of "wild greens."

The meat and cheese you were eating was cooked. That nullifies any experience you say have with meat eating. You were doing it wrong.

MOST MEAT EATERS ARE DOING IT WRONG!

Humans cannot digest raw vegetable matter.

That is a fact you simply cannot dispute.

Humans are designed for RAW meat/fat eating and some fruit.

Raw milk is just liquid meat/fat with enzymes and bacteria to help digest it. (Raw meat has enzymes and bacteria that are great too.)

No one is allergic to dairy, they are just toxic and have been consuming toxic dairy and meat, which makes them think they are.

No one is lactose-intolerant. They just have to re-adjust to REAL milk. (Which has lactase in it!)

THESE are the things people have been getting wrong.

The human diet is very simple and easy. It's our "civilized" world that has fucked it up. Vegetarians are fucking it up worse with all their convoluted ideas.

[awareness]

you take too much of a scientific seat my friend
vegetarianism is about conscious growth, if you want to carry on with a catlike mentality sure, but others tend to try alternatives in life. If people end up with an eating disorder then I bet 99% of the time its a mental disclarity not because of eating veg and some dairy...

Absolutely agree with you. I am a 34 years old healthie woman. I was vegetarian for 16 years and I am vegan now. I have never had any eating disorder. Eating animal products is morally wrong in my opinion, so my veg path has never had any relation with diet. I respect animals´s right to live, and don´t want to be skinny, I am very happy being healthy and full of energy.
Problem is that sometimes some retarded celebrity say he-she is going vegan and they do that as a diet, and maybe there are anorexia problem with them, but it is not the case of the majority of vegetarians and vegans I know. We care about innocent animals, just that.:)

[hypnoticspectre]

welcome to the forum Awareness, im sure youll luv the discussions, Yin meets Yang here and the results are pretty colourful :rolleyes:

[farros]

Robbyblade, if raw milk is as good as raw meat, why not do away with raw meat altogether and subsist on raw milk? what's in raw meat thats not in milk?

[hypnoticspectre]

Rice is a staple for me and millions of others, so to go around saying all grains are poison is baffling since
its probably single-handedly saved humanity.
If you was in said field, tired and hungry.. then how could you catch an animal?
look how hard it is for Lions and Tigers to catch pray, they will go weeks & even months without food and the weaker die as a result.
Is that how humanity should be?

[butters]

Our systems are closest to wolves.

The two differences are length, and acidity. Ours are longer with a little less acidity.The two differences balance each other out. Theirs just works a few hours faster. They get the same end result.

Nothing digests better for humans than RAW meat/fat. NOTHING!

We can eat a little fruit though. I only use it for working out really hard. The carbs save me from breaking down more proteins than I normally would. I really only use bananas, berries, and raw honey.

Grains are the worst food. They are not human food. They literally destroy the digestive system.

We cannot break down the cellulose surrounding the nutrients in vegetables. That is a fact. Vegetarians can argue all they want. They are wrong.

hey mr. olympia

your 'diet' works well for you but you don't have the counsel to say its definite and that grains are the worst food.


an arrogant albeit misinformed perspective

[hypnoticspectre]

China has had vegetarianism since the 7th century and they do live the longest. Sure they eat meat, but the main staple is rice and soy.
A popular movement of "one day vegetarian every week" has been advocated on a national level, and on a local level, even government bodies are involved, such as the Taibei City Board of Education!

[plam]

Rice is a staple for me and millions of others, so to go around saying all grains are poison is baffling since
its probably single-handedly saved humanity.
If you was in said field, tired and hungry.. then how could you catch an animal?
look how hard it is for Lions and Tigers to catch pray, they will go weeks & even months without food and the weaker die as a result.
Is that how humanity should be?

The use of grains as food for people is relatively new
According to wikipedia it started in the antiguity
So we're talking 7-8 century bc.

Which is why some (me included) state
that we are not equipped to eat grains.

Grains is poor man's food and since this civilisation now
is quite developed, humans would be better off
to start slowly dropping it from the diet.

[hypnoticspectre]

hmm Ill agree to disagree on this, since Taoist history is pretty lucid (the fact that they lived on yin/yang energy aka no food yet later ate rice, hmm)

Even if you look at it from this perspective, our destiny was to incorporate grain!

[plam]

The use of grain is related to the growth of world's population
Like I said it's poor man's food.
It was initially used to feed the army and the slaves.
Later on was adopted by the peasants and the poor
And eventually by the rich in the form of cakes an stuff.

It's a filler as it's hard to digest.
It fools your brain to think you're properly fed

[hypnoticspectre]

so what your saying Plam is that they had to find a way of feeding people when there was no animals around. Yup same as a Taoist living in the hills that did not wish to kill. show me why rice is not digestable, ive heard its 96% digestable

[mrstixx]

modern humans evolved from unspecified frugivores, like a lot of other primates. Hunting is pretty recent in our evolutionary timeline. Tools allow us to do this and adapt meat to suit our digestive systems, this is why we have none of the adaptations a carnivorous species has.

I know this because I am Lord, and my word is unquestionable truth.

This goes for grain too, and Haribo star mix.

[hypnoticspectre]

So nuts/seeds/grains, eggs/milk/cheese etc are all not for human yet fruit/meat are..
is it better to just kill the cow when young? or milk it silly then kill it?
Sounds like more science garbel than a Lords statement.

[icke_is_right]

I've tried every way of eating there is.

You would starve in a field of "wild greens."

The meat and cheese you were eating was cooked. That nullifies any experience you say have with meat eating. You were doing it wrong.

MOST MEAT EATERS ARE DOING IT WRONG!

Humans cannot digest raw vegetable matter.

That is a fact you simply cannot dispute.

Humans are designed for RAW meat/fat eating and some fruit.

Raw milk is just liquid meat/fat with enzymes and bacteria to help digest it. (Raw meat has enzymes and bacteria that are great too.)

No one is allergic to dairy, they are just toxic and have been consuming toxic dairy and meat, which makes them think they are.

No one is lactose-intolerant. They just have to re-adjust to REAL milk. (Which has lactase in it!)

THESE are the things people have been getting wrong.

The human diet is very simple and easy. It's our "civilized" world that has fucked it up. Vegetarians are fucking it up worse with all their convoluted ideas.

No you wouldn't starve in a field of greens. You'd just have to eat a lot, something that people aren't used to. Yes, eating like herbivores. I do eat mainly raw veg and fruit. I'm thriving. Maybe I'm a breatharian without realising it Lol! No seriously, I am and do, so why do you think it's untrue?

Sorry but I think that you haven't taken into account the 'energy' that raw veg is surrounded in. I believe that there is a lot more going on with food than, vitamins, minerals etc.. I've seen special photos of cooked and uncooked veg on a Gerson therapy film. Amazing.

I ate raw milk cheese as I said. The most it gave me was constipation, nothing else. The benefits of giving up (even thought it tastes great), are tremendous.

I do have a lot of respect for Kevin Trudeau but he didn't cut the mustard when it came to the 'overweight' question. He also has to constantly detox every year. I found that in low fat, raw vegans, this happened naturally and none were overweight. I went with his salad and fresh fruit recommendation and left the rest. This is a little play on words but it was a process of illimination.

So what happened to you on the low fat raw vegan and how long were you on it for? (If you tried this).

Incidently, I've thought about doing a thread on dumping. I dump a lot. It helps expel toxins. I hear that constipated people are shitting as little as twice a day! Not good.

[hypnoticspectre]

twice a day is relatively decent, constipation means weeks!

[mrstixx]

so nuts/seeds/grains, eggs/milk/cheese etc are all not for human yet fruit and meat are?
is it better to just kill the cow when young? or should we miilkit silly then kill it?
that sounds like more science garbel than a Lords statement.

If you read the manual, you will see I did not design Homo Sapiens Sapiens to run on meat or grain, and certainly not dairy, that's just fucking weird. i'm still working on that for version 3.

[plam]

so what your saying Plam is that they had to find a way of feeding people when there was no animals around. Yup same as a Taoist living in the hills that did not wish to kill. show me why rice is not digestable, ive heard its 96% digestable

Grains are seeds.
All seeds contain enzyme inhibitors and phytic acid
to prevent premature germination.
This is what makes them hard on our digestive system
This is also why people in the past
discovered that by sprouting
the digestibility of seeds is improved.

Grains were introduced as cheap and cheerful way
to feed the growing population.

[montmorency]

At the end of the day, it's about nutrient density.

Man could kill and eat animals raw.

Anything else needed extensive preparation.

He couldn't survive that way.

Therefore, we evolved to eat meat.


Anything else is pure affectation.

[plam]

At the end of the day, it's about nutrient density.
Man could kill and eat animals raw.
Anything else needed extensive preparation.
He couldn't survive that way.
Therefore, we evolved to eat meat.
Anything else is pure affectation.

Absolutely.
Without the nutrient dense food we'd have to spend
all day chewing and digesting
left with no time for anything else.

If it wasn't for meat, we would have computers now
and all these endless discussion about it! :D

[icke_is_right]

Absolutely.
Without the nutrient dense food we'd have to spend
all day chewing and digesting
left with no time for anything else.

If it wasn't for meat, we would have computers now
and all these endless discussion about it! :D

Not on sweet fruit, in fact it is the easiest thing for the body to digest. With all this advice you give about not doing vegan diet. Would it be not wise to actually know something about the 80 10 10 diet? I recommend that you read the book coz you sure as hell aren't open to trying this diet.

What, we'd have to spend a bit more time eating? Outrageous, definitely no time for that!

So, I presume you believe the story about early man first finding bones, cracking them open, getting more intelligent, then deciding to hunt? Yes, well you won't find many people on this site who go along with that who are David Icke fans. We were created by aliens.

Also, we didn't just develop computers because we were eating meat and developed huge intelligence, we are thought to have been given or obtained information from other beings. Also, you'll find that people who've are interesting in the truth would believe that cultures and civilisations thousands of years ago, were far more advanced.

People are now eating meat more than ever. The Asian market is growing massively, eg factory farming in China. It is not the plan to depopulate us by turning us vegetarian. In fact people would be far more healthy and less obese if they got eating more plants/fruit. People are dumbing down more than ever, yet consuming more meat. Though evolution takes time, shouldn't we expect that intelligence is somehow maintained with this amount of protein? The fact is that people on high protein diets develop all sorts of health problems. When they take up a raw vegan lifestyle, all these animal product problems disappear.

Why do we have a vegetarian set of teeth? We have nothing to deal with meat apart from tools we've developed. This doesn't make sense.

So, tools are used to collect meat because we cannot bring down any animal like a cow with our teeth. I believe that juicing hard to digest plants is an ideal way of mineralising and building the human body. This is what most people seem to miss. This is the revolution that people are beginning to click onto. If not juiced, then eaten whole and raw as well as masses of fruit. People are not surviving, they are thriving on this lifestyle.

Why don't you do a thread on sourcing good quality meat? Such a thing doesn't exist in the shops in the UK because even organic is pumped with antibiotics. The health issues with consuming this and cheaper terrible processed products must be huge yet everyone, who eats meat, must be consuming such rubbish? I believe that if you're going to eat meat, you should be thinking about sourcing wild. I am not someone who likes to compromise. I would love to see what people here are actually eating in general. Tesco burgers and kebabs? Lol.

The rules for keeping animals and what they give them in the EU are astounding. Why are there no threads on this? Even if you think you must eat meat, it's a bit worrying. I'm glad to be out of that matrix and thriving collecting more and more wild plants.

[plam]

We do not have vegetarian teeth.

It is exactly the teeth that show that
humans have evolved as 'omnivores'.
We have teeth for cutting (the incisors),
teeth for tearing (the canines)
and teeth for grinding (the molars).

If we were designed as pure vegetarian
We would have only molars,
If we were pure carnivores
we would have mostly canines (for catching and for eating).

The part about aliens
I can't comment on that as the evidence
is pretty scarce, don't you think? ;)

[icke_is_right]

We do not have vegetarian teeth.

It is exactly the teeth that show that
humans have evolved as 'omnivores'.
We have teeth for cutting (the incisors),
teeth for tearing (the canines)
and teeth for grinding (the molars).

If we were designed as pure vegetarian
We would have only molars,
If we were pure carnivores
we would have mostly canines (for catching and for eating).

The part about aliens
I can't comment on that as the evidence
is pretty scarce, don't you think? ;)

Horses have canines. Ours are in no way equipped to do anything to do with flesh. Our incisors are not for flesh. Have you looked at a Gorrilla's teeth? They're vegetarian.

Here are some omnivore teeth from a Grizzly Bear. Spot the difference. Lol!

http://www.grizzlybay.org/LearnMore/Teeth/Grizzlybearteeth.htm

You should probably look at other ominvores like hedgehogs too.


Well, it's not surprise that you can't comment on aliens, you seem to quote the conventional line of most things that I see. You should do some research some time.

[plam]

Our canines are not so pronounced
as we started cooking the meat
and developed tool to chop meat and other foods.

Gorillas' canines teeth are used as weapons
and crashing hard plants like bamboo.

Genetically we're closest to chimpanzees
who are also omnivorous.

Chimpanzees' teeth are exactly like ours
with slightly more pronounced canines
as they do not have sharp tools like us.
------------

Research on aliens involves reading other people's stories.
Unless I see it or touch it, I don't believe in it. ;)

[montmorency]

I see that now the vegans have lost the argument about our digestive tracts, they have switched to arguing about teeth :-)


The only problem early primitive man might have had would have been the hides.

Once he had got down to the flesh, a bit of pounding with stones would probably have rendered most flesh accessible to human teeth.

And once fire came along, he would have had few problems with meat.

(And a lot of, if not most, vegetables need cooking in order to be properly edible)


As for fruit, wherever man evolved, it seems doubtful that sufficiently ripe fruit would be available all year round.

[icke_is_right]

Our canines are not so pronounced
as we started cooking the meat
and developed tool to chop meat and other foods.

Gorillas' canines teeth are used as weapons
and crashing hard plants like bamboo.

Genetically we're closest to chimpanzees
who are also omnivorous.

Chimpanzees' teeth are exactly like ours
with slightly more pronounced canines
as they do not have sharp tools like us.
------------

Research on aliens involves reading other people's stories.
Unless I see it or touch it, I don't believe in it. ;)

If you could show what you think we evolved from and the age of the remains, this would be a help.

You understand that our bone structures are rather like aero chocolate bars, compared to Chimps ie far less dense. Chimps have unbelievable strength.

If you were arguing that we could easily catch beetles, worms, grubs as part of an omnivorous diet, that would be resonable but the argument is not what man does, it's what he's best suited to. This is living in the tropics, eating mainly fruit.

Why does man not have claws to grab prey?

Really with your comment about aliens, I don't understand what you are doing on this site. I think that you'd make an ideal Police Officer.

What research have you done? What's your main interest and for how long?

[icke_is_right]

I see that now the vegans have lost the argument about our digestive tracts, they have switched to arguing about teeth :-)


The only problem early primitive man might have had would have been the hides.

Once he had got down to the flesh, a bit of pounding with stones would probably have rendered most flesh accessible to human teeth.

And once fire came along, he would have had few problems with meat.

(And a lot of, if not most, vegetables need cooking in order to be properly edible)


As for fruit, wherever man evolved, it seems doubtful that sufficiently ripe fruit would be available all year round.

I haven't even addressed the digestion yet. This isn't even an argument because this would involve the other parties having done extensive research, which is clearly not the case. I'm just getting to grips with the level of education/understanding.

I'm sorry but why would he need tools if he's equipped to eat meat?
I think it's best to keep things nice and simple:

NWO= Not Good. If we can agree on that, I suppose it will be a reasonable compromise.

[jconnar]

Fruit is perfect for me.

And full of life force

[plam]

Really with your comment about aliens, I don't understand what you are doing on this site. I think that you'd make an ideal Police Officer.

Haha, you're a strange man!
So is this an UFO fans site?
You're right sometime it does feel like one. :D

If some people are asleep,
another group of people seems drugged!

I see you've now given up the teeth argument
and you're moving onto the nails
Human nails when grow long enough do resemble claws.

Sorry but I can't spare more time to cover the whole human physiology
as much as I'd like to ;)

[mrstixx]

Very simple, if you had evolved to eat raw meat, you would be a cat. Use of tools wouldn't necessarily cause your canines to shrink. Nor can you draw true comparisons with chimps because they have been evolving as long as we have in a different environment. A meat based human diet is facilitated by culture and technology, not evolution. We do not have the physiology, psychology, digestive system or dentition of a carnivore or a true omnivore for that matter. The fact that I would need to acquire tools and specialist knowledge to be able to kill, prepare and eat any mammal, bird or fish tells me it is not natural for me to eat them. At best i could munch on some insects or the odd invertebrate, but i'd probably get food poisoning!

[hypnoticspectre]

Im still on the fence despite strong cases for both eating and not eating meat.
Monkeys have bigger teeth and are alot stronger than us, but dont go around
catching bigger animals to feed.
We are nothing like cats, we have teeth designed to chew our food, not
swallowing big pieces. Also our digestive system cannot burn it fast enough,
half of it ends up rotting in our gut.
On the other side of the argument Ive seen people thrive on meat especially
fish. I still am not convinced that nature intended us to drink other animals
juices, no other species on the planet does that and drinking milk is pushed like
nothing else. I do believe in eating eggs because even monkeys do that and
lots of other animals too.

[icke_is_right]

Haha, you're a strange man!
So is this an UFO fans site?
You're right sometime it does feel like one. :D

If some people are asleep,
another group of people seems drugged!

I see you've now given up the teeth argument
and you're moving onto the nails
Human nails when grow long enough do resemble claws.

Sorry but I can't spare more time to cover the whole human physiology
as much as I'd like to ;)

It is pointless to go on because I am well aware of the mainstream view on teeth, thinking that we're omnivore, canine teeth and digestion. However, I reject most all mainstream teachings because I've found that they are wrong. I've found clearly in the case of diet, mainstream philosophy is a recipe for bad health. Many in my family are/were doctors including my father. My sister is a nurse, my mother was a nurse. I grew up with mainstream philosophy.

I got to David Icke, through uncovering the Gold/Silver/Money conspiracy. Over the last five years, I've covered many things. When you've researched 5 years most days, you learn a lot. I have time to do this. I'm glad I have because my research changed my life. Some years ago, I used to think Prince Charles and the Royals weren't too bad for the UK! This is absolutely not the case and I believe now that they are reptillian bloodlines and extremely evil. I am against their psychopathic behaviour.

This is not a UFO site. It is David Icke's site. It is assumed that you agreed with most/some of what the man says, if you become a member and hang around.

My viewpoint is that I agree with nearly everything that DI says, and willing to change track, if new information comes forward. Many times, I've thought it myself before he says things. It is not because I think I'm smart, it's because I believe in the group consciousness and transfer of what we think. I've had many telepathic experiences. Everyone generally has them.

I have no drugs in my system and occassionally drink alcohol. I'm not a drug user. For me it is you who seem drugged. It would be a good idea for you to injest some cannabis, if you haven't already. This might help open your mind. For many people it does and I'm 100% serious when I suggest this. I don't condone the use of this drug for anything else but killing pain, illness and for people who's consciousness is shut down and then taken orally, not smoked. (Ie in cooked food).

What you don't understand, is how someone like me could see things. If you think I don't know much or if you think that I'm a fool, so be it. Many people here think that David Icke is right.

Well done for doing a thread on good meat. Though I don't condone it, I think it would be a great success if it were possible to get people to think about what they are eating and even eat less meat with the hope that animals roamed around freely for a while. More, I wouldn't expect. It's unrealistic in the present state of things.

I'll remain vegan. I'm well researched and the bottom line is that I'm in very good shape, after 17 years without meat. How long could a bear survive without meat, I wonder? Why am I still alive? Well I think I know the answers.

[icke_is_right]

Im still on the fence despite strong cases for both eating and not eating meat.
Monkeys have bigger teeth and are alot stronger than us, but dont go around
catching bigger animals to feed.
We are nothing like cats, we have teeth designed to chew our food, not
swallowing big pieces. Also our digestive system cannot burn it fast enough,
half of it ends up rotting in our gut.
On the other side of the argument Ive seen people thrive on meat especially
fish. I still am not convinced that nature intended us to drink other animals
juices, no other species on the planet does that and drinking milk is pushed like
nothing else. I do believe in eating eggs because even monkeys do that and
lots of other animals too.

Mix with some low fat raw vegans, see how you feel. Mix with some ill people and so on..... Also, you are open minded, which is good. Have a look at Lloyd Pye. This isn't to do with what to eat, it's to do with evolution. He has some amazing research.

http://www.lloydpye.com/

[tenzingnorgay]

When I see a video of a man/woman bringing down a healthy cow and dispatching it with their vegetarian teeth, then breaking open the skin with their teeth and consuming all parts (ie a bit from each and drinking the blood) I promise you I'll believe that we're meant to eat meat. It ain't going to happen but I'm all eyes when it does.



You might want to read up on the Masai. Or familairize yourself with Native Americans.

I notice however that most US and UK vegetarians eat foods out of season, foods that they could never grow themselves and that won't grow in the UK or the USA. If they would only eat food that could be grown locally they would all die out in a few years. Vegetarianism is possible only because of cheap oil and cheap global travel.

[tenzingnorgay]

I see that now the vegans have lost the argument about our digestive tracts, they have switched to arguing about teeth :-)


The only problem early primitive man might have had would have been the hides.

Once he had got down to the flesh, a bit of pounding with stones would probably have rendered most flesh accessible to human teeth.

And once fire came along, he would have had few problems with meat.

(And a lot of, if not most, vegetables need cooking in order to be properly edible)


As for fruit, wherever man evolved, it seems doubtful that sufficiently ripe fruit would be available all year round.

With their brains shrinking from lack of vitamin B12, don't expect coherent arguments from vegetarians.

[tenzingnorgay]

Fruit is perfect for me.

And full of life force

Then become a fruitarian and report back to us in a couple of years if you are physically and mentally capable of doing so.