How to explain ID cards are bad (to sheeple)

[steevo]

I have always had a problem getting the sheeple to understand that ID Cards are a bad thing. The sheeple usually cannot see that they are a bad thing, on the contrary, they see them as a positive move :rolleyes:

Well, it's starting to come clear to me what the ID cards are gonna be used for and it's gonna TRULY effect all our freedoms. Ok, let me first just point out that this is just a theory of mine but I think it will happen.

Example : A smoker is probably gonna need a licence to smoke or to buy cigarettes (see thread below) and the RFID cards (or microchips) will be endorsed to show that a particular individual has a licence or not.
Therefore he cannot smoke unless he is given permission by the lawmakers. Maybe a friend could buy him cigarettes ? Well that friend will also have a licence (or not) and it will effect their quota of cigarettes if THEY also are smokers. The RFID will mean a cashless society so how would they be able to pay back their friend the money for the purchase of the said cigarettes ? If their friend DOESNT SMOKE then they will NOT have a licence endorsed on their RFID chip, meaning a purchase would not be possible.
£10 License To Smoke! By Draconian Law (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20051)

I think that new obesity laws will be brought in too, so there will probably be a licence for what food certain people will be allowed to buy. So, the so called "obese" people are gonna be effected. Just replace the cigarettes mentioned in the above scenario and replace it with food.

I think that the above explanation could be a good way of convincing the sheeple that ID cards are bad. I hope so anyway.

Tell me what you think please.

[coshh]

As someone who you probably think of as a sheeple I can equivically say I doubt most would believe that an ID card system would go to such lengths.

Some far more convincing arguments which cause me to disapprove of ID cards:

1) the government is too incompetent to safely store peoples private details without screwing it up and leaking all the information
2) it implies a different relationship with the state if one is required to have an ID card, free citizens should not be required to be registered like domestic animals simply for existing (they are already of course, but every step down that road is another step too far)
3) it will be inconvenient for everyone and the system will likely break down often
4) it will be hugely expensive
5) it does not provide the benefits attributed to it according to research
6) more bloody paperwork
7) it will make identity theft and fraud easier
8) did I mention billions of pounds of tax payers money
9) even if you think the government is good now (and who does really?), in 20 years all the young dissafected muslims who are having a baby boom's children will grow up and could vote for an SWP-Muslim Brotherhood coalition which then goes on to imprision the socialists (like in iran) and set up a theocratic state with far worse rules (this is only one example of a way the government could change of course) and suddenly their ability to know who you are and all your info on their database will be a lot more sinister and you will think "fuck me I voted for my own doom" and then you will wear the goddamn veil or get 50 lashes of the whip!
10) etc.
11) ad nauseum

[steevo]

even if you think the government is good now (and who does really?), in 20 years all the young dissafected muslims who are having a baby boom's children will grow up and could vote for an SWP-Muslim Brotherhood coalition which then goes on to imprision the socialists (like in iran) and set up a theocratic state with far worse rules (this is only one example of a way the government could change of course) and suddenly their ability to know who you are and all your info on their database will be a lot more sinister and you will think "fuck me I voted for my own doom" and then you will wear the goddamn veil or get 50 lashes of the whip!


My god what are you on ?

[coshh]

My god what are you on ?

LOL. It was a bit of a joke. Clearly not a very good one. :p
Although it is true that muslims are having a baby boom and will probably dictate the political future of the country (but probably not for 60 or 70 years rather than 20).

[steevo]

LOL. It was a bit of a joke. Clearly not a very good one. :p
Although it is true that muslims are having a baby boom and will probably dictate the political future of the country (but probably not for 60 or 70 years rather than 20).

You are certainly no Bill Hicks that's for sure :rolleyes:

[kblood]

LOL. It was a bit of a joke. Clearly not a very good one. :p
Although it is true that muslims are having a baby boom and will probably dictate the political future of the country (but probably not for 60 or 70 years rather than 20).

Not to worry, the fact that they are having a baby boom is because many muslims live in 3rd world countries, many which are doing well these days. We (western world) had baby booms once as well, but now it is kind of stagnating. We havent had a baby boom for... I think its 20-25 years now, and I believe they used to be every 15 years or something like that.

The 3rd world countries will of course also reach a peak in their baby booms quite naturally. It shouldnt really change much that they get to be a few more. At most there will be more muslims than christians. Then maybe they will learn to figure out some set rules for Islam, instead of making their own at every priest or whatever they are called. Islam seems a religion based mostly on mouth to mouth spreading, which causes alot of it to be the intepretation of others. The true meaning of it could be quite different when read by us, and I know a few who have. Wearing scarfs is something they interpreted from "not attracting men" on purpose. Kind of blows the idea some have to wear a scarf, and at the same time put on make up and lots of jewelry... kinda defeats the purpose? Oh well... I need to know more muslims before I can really say I have anyhting concrete to say against it. Mostly I hear about daughters hiding here in my country hoping not to be found by their family so they get to be taken back to some country and married off to some guy. My cousin went to her familily in the middle east of her own free will though, and it sounds like she gets treated well enough. They are even going to teach her how to run restaurents and stuff.

From what I have heard, it varies alot how bent on rules and what rules is followed in Islamic countries or regions of Islamic countries.

[coshh]

No they are having a baby boom in the UK. If you want I will dig up the stats for it (but only if you want because I am uber lazy). The base fertility rate if I am not wrong is just a bit over replacement level where as the muslim fertility rate is about double replacement. They're only a small percentage of the population though so it doesn't count as a baby boom overall.

Oh and I am not worrying, it is not like I relate to the agnosto-christian majority or anything, are you accusing me of racism? :p

[steevo]

No they are having a baby boom in the UK. If you want I will dig up the stats for it (but only if you want because I am uber lazy). The base fertility rate if I am not wrong is just a bit over replacement level where as the muslim fertility rate is about double replacement. They're only a small percentage of the population though so it doesn't count as a baby boom overall.

Oh and I am not worrying, it is not like I relate to the agnosto-christian majority or anything, are you accusing me of racism? :p

You are against a certain race/religion having a baby boom ?

[coshh]

You are against a certain race/religion having a baby boom ?
I just said I wasn't :(
I think if most people knew the implications they would be though.
Personally I am too far gone for that, I am as much a stranger in a white/agnosto-christian Britain as in a asian/muslim Britain).:(

[steevo]

I just said I wasn't :(
I think if most people knew the implications they would be though.
Personally I am too far gone for that, I am as much a stranger in a white/agnosto-christian Britain as in a asian/muslim Britain).:(

What IMPLICATIONS :rolleyes::cool: ? Are you talking about the "implications" that you mentioned above prior ? Sounds like you ARE racist to me.

[coshh]

What IMPLICATIONS :rolleyes::cool: ? Are you talking about the "implications" that you mentioned above prior ? Sounds like you ARE racist to me.

You think that the demographic (both ethnic and religious) makeup of the country changing wouldn't have a profound effect on the culture of that country and everything that goes with it? Or you think most people would just happily change their culture and identity as easily as changing clothes?

Not to mention the increased tensions that any cultural transition would provoke, do you think most people would like to live in a country divided? Even at my college most people of different "races" stick together, not because they're racist, they just understand the customs of people from their background better (there is segregation by social class too, not enforced, just happens, people seem to get on better with people from their class). If we get into a situation where the numbers are much larger than now we will get to a point where we have parallel societies with all the potential for explosive situations that could cause. Do you think most people want to bring their kids up in a situation that risks civil war? Race is only marginally to do with it, its just the idea that people do feel different and act differently and have different values and ideologies and social connections from each other.

[steevo]

You think that the demographic (both ethnic and religious) makeup of the country changing wouldn't have a profound effect on the culture of that country and everything that goes with it? Or you think most people would just happily change their culture and identity as easily as changing clothes?

Are you trying to be a fearmongerer ? Or are you just repeating the mainstream media storylines ?

There is nothing to fear from our fellow man. The only thing to fear is fear itself. Fear is instilled in the populations by mainstream media fearmongerers, polititions and people who REPEAT that BS. And the "the powers that be" who brainwash everybody via the mainstream media into hating each other.

[coshh]

Are you trying to be a fearmongerer ? Or are you just repeating the mainstream media storylines ?

There is nothing to fear from our fellow man. The only thing to fear is fear itself. Fear is instilled in the populations by mainstream media fearmongerers, polititions and people who REPEAT that BS. And the people who brainwash everybody via the mainstream media into hating each other.

Say you are right and people are "brainwashed" into hating each other. They still have to worry about that. If the guy who lives down the road is "brainwashed" into hating me and he has a baseball bat and no qualms about smashing my windows, I am going to worry about my fellow man and what he might do, even if I know its not his fault.

[steevo]

Say you are right and people are "brainwashed" into hating each other. They still have to worry about that. If the guy who lives down the road is "brainwashed" into hating me and he has a baseball bat and no qualms about smashing my windows, I am going to worry about my fellow man and what he might do, even if I know its not his fault.

Well why arent you interested in addressing the CAUSE of the man with the baseball bat ? Instead you just say that is how it is and we are doomed if we let them have more babies. Get to the cause of the problem and THEN and ONLY THEN can you solve it.

Do you not ever think, "what is CAUSING this chaos in our country right now ?" or do you just have the attitude that "shit happens".

[montag]

Are you trying to be a fearmongerer ? Or are you just repeating the mainstream media storylines ?

There is nothing to fear from our fellow man. The only thing to fear is fear itself. Fear is instilled in the populations by mainstream media fearmongerers, polititions and people who REPEAT that BS. And the people who brainwash everybody via the mainstream media into hating each other.
Great post steevo!

[steevo]

Great post steevo!

Thanks montag :)

[coshh]

Well why arent you interested in addressing the CAUSE of the man with the baseball bat ? Instead you just say that is how it is and we are doomed if we let them have more babies. Get to the cause of the problem and THEN and ONLY THEN can you solve it.

Do you not ever think, "what is CAUSING this chaos in our country right now ?" or do you just have the attitude that "shit happens".

Well for one because its two late in that case. And for two I am concerned with the cause but not until I have dealt with the immediate threat and more importantly not until I have the power to deal with it.

There is a story by the Buddha about this actually, where he asks "if you are shot with an arrow do you think to yourself 'why was I shot, who did it, what is this all about, what was its velocity, what is it made of' and so on? No, you remove the arrow, then you can do that if you want".

I don't think there is "chaos" in the country right now. Mismanagement certainly, a potential for future chaos sure, but all in all things are pretty damn calm. What is the cause of problems, depends which ones, the world is a complex place and there are many influences on society. I think the biggest cause of problems that bother me is liberalism which naturally leads to poor leadership.

[steevo]

Well for one because its two late in that case. And for two I am concerned with the cause but not until I have dealt with the immediate threat and more importantly not until I have the power to deal with it.

There is a story by the Buddha about this actually, where he asks "if you are shot with an arrow do you think to yourself 'why was I shot, who did it, what is this all about, what was its velocity, what is it made of' and so on? No, you remove the arrow, then you can do that if you want".

I don't think there is "chaos" in the country right now. Mismanagement certainly, a potential for future chaos sure, but all in all things are pretty damn calm. What is the cause of problems, depends which ones, the world is a complex place and there are many influences on society. I think the biggest cause of problems that bother me is liberalism which naturally leads to poor leadership.

Leadership. Always leadership with you isnt it. Playing "follow me leader" :rolleyes:

[steevo]

Well for one because its two late in that case. And for two I am concerned with the cause but not until I have dealt with the immediate threat and more importantly not until I have the power to deal with it.

There is a story by the Buddha about this actually, where he asks "if you are shot with an arrow do you think to yourself 'why was I shot, who did it, what is this all about, what was its velocity, what is it made of' and so on? No, you remove the arrow, then you can do that if you want".

I don't think there is "chaos" in the country right now. Mismanagement certainly, a potential for future chaos sure, but all in all things are pretty damn calm. What is the cause of problems, depends which ones, the world is a complex place and there are many influences on society. I think the biggest cause of problems that bother me is liberalism which naturally leads to poor leadership.

What does Buddha say about fear and fear mongerers ?
What does Buddha say about cause and effect ?
What does Buddha say about the how's and why's of chaos ?

[coshh]

Leadership. Always leadership with you isnt it. Playing "follow me leader" :rolleyes:

Well I am not an anarchist so I believe that complex social organisation requires leaders. I would agree with the man who said it was foolish of us to believe that man can be ruled by "laws and not men". I think most people are alienated from the realities of power dynamics in society and that is why they can't accept these facts.

I don't see what is so wrong with following a good leader, rebellion for its own sake delegitimises valid struggles and doesn't bring benefit for it.

Edit: I have not read everything by the Buddha. I just liked the story. I am not a buddhist myself. About cause and effect I know he says that every action leads to another - this is karma, karma is basically the continuity of a process through the shifting of impermanent forms. Chaos would be due to our being in samsara and thus subject to the effects of karma. Specifically it would be due to the 12 links of dependent origination:

1. Ingorance - from which volition and karma arise and come to be.
2. Volition - from which consciousness arises and comes to be.
3. Consciousness - from which body and mind come to be.
4. Body/mind - from which the six internal bases (eye, ear, nose, tongue, body and mind) arise and come to be.
5. The six senses - from which the six external bases (sight, sound, scent, taste, tangibles and dharma) arise and come to be.
6. Contact - from which sensory and mental sensations of pleasure, pain or neutrality arise and come to be.
7. Sensation - from which desire, thirst and craving arise and come to be.
8. Desire - from which attachment, clinging, or grasping arise and come to be.
9. Attachment - from which existence and the process of becoming arise and come to be.
10. Existence (becoming) - from which birth or re-birth (reincarnation) arises and comes to be.
11. Birth - from which ageing and eventually death arise and come to be.
12. Ageing and Death - from which ignorance and the cycle repeats itself, indefinitely until broken.

I do not think trying to see the world for what it is warts and all is "fear mongering" though.

[steevo]

Well I am not an anarchist so I believe that complex social organisation requires leaders. I would agree with the man who said it was foolish of us to believe that man can be ruled by "laws and not men". I think most people are alienated from the realities of power dynamics in society and that is why they can't accept these facts.

I don't see what is so wrong with following a good leader, rebellion for its own sake delegitimises valid struggles and doesn't bring benefit for it.

Ok whatever, let's get back ON TOPIC now please.

With regards to my theory about ID cards. I think that sales of alcohol will be licenced too, meaning that only people with a licence will be able to buy alcohol and to get a licence you must have permission from your GP and also the police if you have any drink related "incidents". That is my THEORY on it and that is a way IMO that we can convince the sheeple that ID are a bad idea. I personally dont drink or smoke so it dont effect me AT THE MOMENT.

I think the sheeple WILL/MAY accept that ID cards are a bad idea if you explain this to them and how it is connected to a cashless society and especially now that the mainstream media have actually reported the proposed £10 licence for smokers.

[montag]

Well I am not an anarchist so I believe that complex social organisation requires leaders. I would agree with the man who said it was foolish of us to believe that man can be ruled by "laws and not men". I think most people are alienated from the realities of power dynamics in society and that is why they can't accept these facts.

I don't see what is so wrong with following a good leader, rebellion for its own sake delegitimises valid struggles and doesn't bring benefit for it.
The problem here is we don't know who our true leaders are, politicians are merely front men, normally lawyers(liars) employed to promote and sell the agenda to the populous. The real movers and shakers who create policy are not accountable to the electorate nor are they ever exposed by the media for scrutiny.

[armoured_amazon]

Great post steevo!

+1

[hagbard_celine]

I have always had a problem getting the sheeple to understand that ID Cards are a bad thing. The sheeple usually cannot see that they are a bad thing, on the contrary, they see them as a positive move :rolleyes:

Well, it's starting to come clear to me what the ID cards are gonna be used for and it's gonna TRULY effect all our freedoms. Ok, let me first just point out that this is just a theory of mine but I think it will happen.

Example : A smoker is probably gonna need a licence to smoke or to buy cigarettes (see thread below) and the RFID cards (or microchips) will be endorsed to show that a particular individual has a licence or not.
Therefore he cannot smoke unless he is given permission by the lawmakers. Maybe a friend could buy him cigarettes ? Well that friend will also have a licence (or not) and it will effect their quota of cigarettes if THEY also are smokers. The RFID will mean a cashless society so how would they be able to pay back their friend the money for the purchase of the said cigarettes ? If their friend DOESNT SMOKE then they will NOT have a licence endorsed on their RFID chip, meaning a purchase would not be possible.
£10 License To Smoke! By Draconian Law (http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=20051)

I think that new obesity laws will be brought in too, so there will probably be a licence for what food certain people will be allowed to buy. So, the so called "obese" people are gonna be effected. Just replace the cigarettes mentioned in the above scenario and replace it with food.

I think that the above explanation could be a good way of convincing the sheeple that ID cards are bad. I hope so anyway.

Tell me what you think please.

Ask them what they'd do if they went in to pay for something and machine said "No". If there is no cash then you have no alternative to pay with. It means that we no longer get to hold our own money. The liberty of being allowed to have access to your own money has been sacrified before. In the 19th Century many mineworkers were not paid any money, they were given "truck tokens" which could only be spent in the mines shops. It makes a joke of the idea that slavery was abolished 200 years ago! What is the difference between this and slavery!? In Roman times and in many other ancient societies where slavery was prevelant they had a similar system. A slave was considered the property of their master and received no wages; however a slave-owner had to provide food and accomodation etc for his slave. This would mean a lot of organizational work and shopping etc, so some just used to save themselves the bother by giving the slave tokens and saying "Go and get whatever you need." The slave could then take the tokens to special stores and excahnge them for goods. What's the difference between that and the truck system? What's the difference between the truck system and the electronic cashless-society?... I can't think of a difference either!:eek: If anyone doubts that ID cards are a stepping-stone to this cashlkess society then show them what's happening in Singapore where people's passports and ID cards are being adapted to become shopping cards.

If we accept a cashless society, or even one where our cash is monitored, then we introduce a global truck system. Without cash we no longer choose what we do with our own money, because we have no control over it; and the govt can control what we buy, when and where we buy it and even if we buy anything at all.

Another good way of waking people up is to invite them round get a few beers in the fridge and show them V for Vendetta. This is one of the best "Waking up" films ever made!

[numbersix]

[If we accept a cashless society, or even one where our cash is monitored, then we introduce a global truck system. Without cash we no longer choose what we do with our own money, because we have no control over it; and the govt can control what we buy, when and where we buy it and even if we buy anything at all.

Agreed. Governments hate cash because you can pay a tradesman in it and stop them stealing even more tax (VAT) even though you have already paid substantial tax and national insurance on your earned income.
If they try to get rid of cash then we must get rid of them....

[tootrue]

The problem here is we don't know who our true leaders are, politicians are merely front men, normally lawyers(liars) employed to promote and sell the agenda to the populous. The real movers and shakers who create policy are not accountable to the electorate nor are they ever exposed by the media for scrutiny.

Hey, come on now, Channel 5 tells us US president is the most powerful man on Earth :( :rolleyes:

[hagbard_celine]

[If we accept a cashless society, or even one where our cash is monitored, then we introduce a global truck system. Without cash we no longer choose what we do with our own money, because we have no control over it; and the govt can control what we buy, when and where we buy it and even if we buy anything at all.

Agreed. Governments hate cash because you can pay a tradesman in it and stop them stealing even more tax (VAT) even though you have already paid substantial tax and national insurance on your earned income.
If they try to get rid of cash then we must get rid of them....

That's certainly one of the reasons I'm sure, but the main one is the control aspect. Cash is unregulated and unmonitored. It's a universal exchange mechanism that is valid to buy anything; without anyone's permission, without anyone tracking your purchase. Cash is a fundamental civil liberty.

I once read the brilliant and hilarious Red Dwarf novels. In one Rimmer becomes mega-rich and uses his influence to punish a man by preventing him from buying Heinz baked beans! He condemns him to having to tolerate cheap supermarket brands for the rest of his life! It's just a joke, but in a cashless society, the govt could actually do things like that!:eek: