PDA

View Full Version : Why Islam Is Only True Religion From God


Pages : 1 2 3 4 5 [6] 7 8 9 10 11 12 13 14 15 16 17 18 19 20 21 22 23 24 25 26 27 28 29

ciko
09-03-2012, 06:24 PM
Jesus is a myth. And even if he did exist that YouTube video would prove NOTHING.



Don't know, really don't care to be honest.




No, whoever wrote that verse said that.



Allah was a well known pre-Islamic deity who had 3 daughters. This is fact backed up by archeological and historical findings. You simply cannot deny that there wasn't already a 'Allah' god at the kabaa before Muhammad came along and made the god 'Allah' his singular deity for his new religion.




No, whoever wrote that verse said that.



Because it was purposely written that way by men who were attempting to structure a single monotheist religion and bring the end of polytheistic beliefs around Mecca.

Afew facts:

Allah was a pre-Islamic deity, the kabaa was a pre-Islamic pagan shrine, the prostration prayer even comes from the pagan Arabs, Ramadan is pagan, circling the kabaa 7 times is pagan ( planet worship 7 heavens )

Use your brain its obvious.


Jesus is a myth. And even if he did exist that YouTube video would prove NOTHING.

i dont think so

Don't know, really don't care to be honest.

exactly, you dont know ;)

No, whoever wrote that verse said that.

it is exactly what God said that you do, juest guessing, maybe this maybe that....without evidence. Without evidence that what you say is rubbish man, at least when i say soemthing i allways post evidence, from youtube, quran, bible verses, scientific facts and so on...but wht to you do???

jesus is a myth, i thik this i think that....guesswork ;)

if we assume that people wrote quran, tell me how could they know this


how can anyone in 6th century know without microscope and other modern equipment that white milk forms from red blood ?????

God tells us in the quran about cow's milk formation

http://www.science-art.com/gallery/58/58_5242003151234.jpg

God said:

"And in the livestock there is a lesson for you: we provide you with a drink from their bellies. From the midst of digested food and blood, you get pure milk, delicious for the drinkers. (The Noble Quran, 16:66)"

what science says about this:

Milk Biosynthesis
Milk is synthesized in the mammary gland. Within the mammary gland is the milk producing unit, the alveolus. It contains a single layer of epithelial secretory cells surrounding a central storage area called the lumen, which is connected to a duct system. The secretory cells are, in turn, surrounded by a layer of myoepithelial cells and blood capillaries.
The raw materials for milk production are transported via the bloodstream to the secretory cells. It takes 400-800 L of blood to deliver components for 1 L of milk.

Proteins: building blocks are amino acids in the blood. Casein micelles, or small aggregates thereof, may begin aggregation in Golgi vesicles within the secretory cell.
Lipids:
C4-C14 fatty acids are synthesized in the cells
C16 and greater fatty acids are preformed as a result of rumen hydrogenation and are transported directly in the blood
Lactose: milk is in osmotic equilibrium with the blood and is controlled by lactose, K, Na, Cl; lactose synthesis regulates the volume of milk secreted

from wikipedia:

"The carbohydrate lactose gives milk its sweet taste and contributes about 40% of whole cow milk's calories. Lactose is a composite of two simple sugars, glucose and galactose. In nature, lactose is found only in milk and a small number of plants (McGee 17).Other components found in raw cow milk are living white blood cells, mammary-gland cells, various bacteria, and a large number of active enzymes (McGee 16).



Who could know this in 6th century in arabian desert without modern equipment, without telescopes and computers?

Pulsars/neutron stars in Quran

PULSARS
http://www.nasa.gov/images/content/230242main_Pulsar2_sm.jpg

‏86:1 والسماء والطارق
‏86:2 وماادراك ماالطارق
‏86:3 النجم الثاقب

God says in quran:

V 1- By the heavens and The Knocker.
V 2- How will you comprehend what the The Knocker is?
V 3- It’s a piercing star.
86-The Knocker, V1-V3 [86 SURE AT-TALIQ, V1-V3]

or this

God says in quran about expanding universe:

47- With power did We construct heaven. Verily, We are expanding it. 51-The Dispersing, 47

Allah was a well known pre-Islamic deity who had 3 daughters. This is fact backed up by archeological and historical findings. You simply cannot deny that there wasn't already a 'Allah' god at the kabaa before Muhammad came along and made the god 'Allah' his singular deity for his new religion.

Allah was a well known pre-Islamic deity who had 3 daughters.

yes he wa a well known pre-Islamic deity , christians and jews called God Allah before muhammed's time.

who had 3 daughters

he says in his book that he has not neighter son nor daughters, but who cares, you dont even believe God exists nor quran.


Allah was a pre-Islamic deity, the kabaa was a pre-Islamic pagan shrine, the prostration prayer even comes from the pagan Arabs, Ramadan is pagan, circling the kabaa 7 times is pagan ( planet worship 7 heavens )

Use your brain its obvious

i am not intrested in reading your rubbish talk without any evidence;)

ciko
09-03-2012, 06:34 PM
Evidence ? You posted a well known Noah's Ark hoax article on another thread because you thought it was real :D the only embarrassment around here is you.

It's well known the 'Islamic golden era' happened because the Arabs used Greek knowledge, that was translated for them by Jews and Christians.


You posted a well known Noah's Ark hoax article

is newmagazine THE SUN hoax newspaper?

'Noah's Ark' found in Turkey
http://img.thesun.co.uk/multimedia/archive/01032/Noah_s-Ark_682_1032743a.jpg
copied from
http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/news/2949640/Noahs-Ark-found-in-Turkey.html

the only embarrassment around here is you.

at least i post evidence so everybody can see, but WHAT DO YOU DO MAN?


It's well known the 'Islamic golden era' happened because the Arabs used Greek knowledge, that was translated for them by Jews and Christians?

NOT ONLY TRANSLATED BUT INVENTED ALSO, EDUCATE YOURSELF ;)

ciko
09-03-2012, 06:41 PM
The scientists of the golden era had their work in spite of islam not because of it. They were actually persecuted and lived under constant threat from the islamic rulers.

The scientists of the golden era had their work in spite of islam not because of it

God urges people in quran to explore universe and nature :

3:190 In the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the alternation of night and day, there are Signs for people with intelligence:

191 who remember God standing, sitting, and lying down, who reflect on the creation of the heavens and earth: ‘Our Lord! You have not created all this without purpose- You are far above that!- so protect us from the torment of the Fire.


They were actually persecuted and lived under constant threat from the islamic rulers

why do you lie here, SCIENTISTS IN CHRISTIAN COUNTRIES were actually persecuted NOT IN ISLAMIC STATE.

luciferhorus
09-03-2012, 08:31 PM
God standing, sitting, and lying down, who reflect on the creation of the heavens and earth: ‘Our Lord! You have not created all this without purpose- You are far above that!- so protect us from the torment of the Fire.


Your militant and genocidal human hating god is unlikely to protect his enslaved followers from the torment of fire that will rain down on them from the heavens with genocidal fury.

http://glossynews.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/10/nuclear-israel-threat1.jpg

http://www.theoriginof.com/wp-content/uploads/2011/05/Nuclear-Bomb-8-150x150.jpg

http://t2.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcQxHtBMeJR4htL_zuP4If5hqNeN0etk4 3FYgwMxJCpL0CMDgMKeb3Vi_Ugc


I thank the gods (and goddesses) that Israel has nuclear weapons.


More on "Islamofasicm and the Threat of Nuclear Genocide" on: http://forum.davidicke.com/showthread.php?t=203276

Lux

itruth
09-03-2012, 09:27 PM
Originally Posted by ciko View Post
let say you are a parent to two young boys, then you and your wife have to go outside to buy something but you say to your sons NOT TO PLAY FOOTBALL IN THE HOUSE, SO THEY DONT BRAKE WINDOWS. YOU THREATEN THEM TO BEAT THEM IF THEY BRAKE WINDOWS.

IS THIS BAD TELL ME?

IS IT BAD TO THRETEN YOU CHILDREN NOT TO TAKE DRUGS AND ALCOHOL, NOT STEAL, NOT KICK OTHER CHILDREN IN SCHOOL? IT IS BAD TO THRETEN THEM SOME TIME SO THEY CAN BE GOOD PEOPLE FOR THE SOCIETY?

THAT IS SAME WITH GOD, WHEN HE THREATEN SOME PEOPLE IS JUST SO THEY DONT DO EVIL DEEDS...

This is how those who have been "TAUGHT THE WAYS OF ALLAH" deal with children who have yet to commit any crime:

The islamic moses meets another islamic character who has been "taught ther ways of allah". The islamic moses (musa) wants to learn these ways so he asks if he can follow this islamic character khdir. The story below:

KORAN SURA 18:65:

So they found one of Our servants, on whom We had bestowed Mercy from Ourselves and whom We had taught knowledge from Our own Presence. 66Moses said to him: "May I follow thee, on the footing that thou teach me something of the (Higher) Truth which thou hast been taught?"
70The other said: "If then thou wouldst follow me, ask me no questions about anything until I myself speak to thee concerning it." http://www.searchtruth.com/chapter_display.php?chapter=18&translator=2

So they set off, after leaving the ship, making their way on foot, until, when they met a boy, who had not yet reached puberty, playing with [other] boys, among whom his face was the fairest — and he, al-Khidr, slew him, by slitting his throat with a knife while he lay down, or by tearing his head off with his hand, or by smashing his head against a wall, Sura 18:74. Tafsir Al Jalalayn http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=18&tAyahNo=74&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2

Moses said,‘What! hast thou slain an innocent person without his having slain anyone! Surely, thou hast done a hideous thing’ ...

(This is the explanation moses was given)… ‘And as for the boy, both his parents had been ones who believe, and we dreaded that he should constrain them with defiance and ingratitude, 18.80. Dr. Laleh Bakhtiar


Thats pure demonism right there.

The boy was slaughtered without even committing any crime or doing anything wrong. He was murdered because allah "DREADED ("we dreaded")
that the boy would grow up with disbelief. That is what is meant by "defiance and ingratitude". "defiance and ingratitude" = KUFFAR!

itruth
09-03-2012, 09:34 PM
this is such stupidity on highest level

daughters of Allah, what a joke :rolleyes:

Allah says in quran:

16:57 And they assign unto Allah daughters - Be He Glorified! - and unto themselves what they desire;

58. When one of them is given news of the birth of a baby girl, his face darkens and he is filled with gloom.

How long were the muslims reciting and bowing down to satans revelations?

‘Satan MADE him [muhummad] repeat these two phrases: These idols are high and their intercession is expected. Then Apostle of Allah repeated them, and he went on reciting the whole surah and then fell in prostration, and the people also fell in prostration with him. Ibn Sa’ad’s Kitab Al-Tabaqat Al-Kabir’.


Wow, so muhummad led people into worshipping satan. But the question is, how long were the muslims bowing down and prostrating themselves to satanic revelations?

itruth
09-03-2012, 10:07 PM
islam came to liberate slaves, those are backwards muslims who dont know essence of islam, those are uneducated people, you can not judge islam by those people.

Like i can not judge christianity by Hitler, even tough he was christian. You can attack quran by reading its teching and try to find mistakes and contradictions, but you will never find it beacuse i can explain all of them.

read this and you shall know why you are wrong
Human equality and the liberation of slaves in Islam:http://www.answering-christianity.com/equality.htm

Something is wrong with you people you try to disprove islam in all possible way, but that is imposible , believe me, i have studied this religion, and it is harder than a rock, you can not break it ;)

Islam is not the problem, and its teaching, the problem can be muslims, beacuse of they wrong deeds and lack of knowledge about islam.

islam came to liberate slaves,

It did? where? when? who? how?

When you say "liberate slaves" are you talking about kuffar slaves, or only slaves who become muslims?

Muhummad sold black kuffar slaves to free white slaves who had become muslim. Where is the "liberate slaves" in such actions?

you can not judge islam by those people.

I judge islam and muslims by muhummads standards. Muhummad himself sold people into slavery. Muhummad had unborn children enslaved. Muhummad had slaves whom THEIR MASTERS HAD LIBERATED THEM RE-ENSLAVED.


"LIBERATED SLAVE" RE-ENSLAVED BY MUHUMMAD:

Narrated Jabir bin 'Abdullah: A man amongst us declared that his slave would be freed after his death. The Prophet called for that slave and sold him. The slave died the same year. Bukhari, book 46, 711 http://www.searchtruth.com/book_display.php?book=46&translator=1&start=0&number=711#711

TWO BLACK KUFFARS SOLD INTO SLAVERY TO FREE ONE WHITE MUSLIM. (TWO BLACK SLAVES ARE EQUAL TO THE VALUE OF ONE WHITE SLAVE)

There came a slave and pledg- ed allegiance to Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) on migration; he (the Holy Prophet) did not know that he was a slave. Then there came his master and demanded him back, whereupon Allah's Apostle (may peace be upon him) said: Sell him to me. And he bought him for two black slaves, and he did not afterwards take allegiance from anyone until he had asked him whether he was a slave (or a free man) (SAHIH MUSLIM: Book #010, Hadith #3901) http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=black+slaves&translator=2&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=exact

UNBORN CHILD ENSLAVED TO COMPENSATE ANOTHER MANS VAINITY:

A man from the Ansar called Basrah said: 'I married a virgin woman in her veil. When I entered upon her, I found her pregnant. (I mentioned this to the Prophet).' The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: 'She will get the dower, for you made her vagina lawful for you. The child will be your slave. When she has begotten (a child), flog her'" Abu Dawud (2126) http://www.cmje.org/religious-texts/hadith/abudawud/011-sat.php#011.2126


3:56. As for the disbelievers (Christians and jews), I will chastise them with a terrible chastisement in this world, through being killed, taken captive and made to pay the jizya, and the Hereafter, in the Fire; they shall have no helpers, none to protect them from it. Tafsir Al Jalalayn http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=3&tAyahNo=56&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2

Therefore, all people of the world should be called to Islam. If anyone of them refuses to do so, or refuses to pay the Jizya they should be fought till they are killed. This is the meaning of compulsion. In the Sahih, the Prophet said: "Allah wonders at those people who will enter Paradise in chains", meaning prisoners brought in chains to the Islamic state, then they embrace Islam sincerely and become righteous, and are entered among the people of Paradise. (Tafsir of Ibn Kathir, Surah Al-Baqarah, ayat 253 to 286, Surah Al-Imran, ayat 1 to 92, abridged by Sheikh Muhammad Nasib Ar-Rafa‘i [Al-Firdous Ltd., London, 1999: First Edition], Part 3, pp. 37-38)

(1) Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "Allah wonders at those people who will enter Paradise in chains." (Book #52, Hadith #254) http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=Paradise+in+chains&translator=1&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=exact


Al Fawzan–a member of the Senior Council of Clerics, Saudi Arabia's highest religious body–says Muslims who contend Islam is against slavery “ARE IGNORANT, NOT SCHOLARS." "They are merely writers," he said, according to SIA. "WHOEVER SAYS SUCH THINGS IS AN INFIDEL” http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=35518

itruth
09-03-2012, 10:19 PM
To iTRUTH

Dealing Justly with Wives and Orphans (Qur'an 4:3)http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Dealing_Justly_with_Wives_and_Orphans_(Qur'an_4:3)

Same as before, take up to four wives IF you can do justice to them (sura4.3 tadilu = do justice)

taʿdilū = you can do justice http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=4&verse=3

By that verse alone muslims were talking UP TO four wives believing they could "TADILU (do justice)".

But then at a later 'unspecified time' allah says to muslims men they "will never be able to do justice".

taʿdilū = deal justly http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=4&verse=129

If allah knew this to begin with, verse 4.3 would be completely pointless and therefore this is implying that the koran does not make much sense, which is also another contridiction.

This is not about translations, this is about the arabic word 'tadilu'. Tadilu means only one thing 'deal justly'.

itruth
09-03-2012, 10:40 PM
islamic state was present during its golden age, when islamic state was nr 1 in the world when it comes to science and techonlogy

look this informative film to show you about islamic state when , islam encourage science

Islam and Science - The Golden Age; known today as the "Dark Ages" - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BzHZ_-cGXrU)

this is the heritage of Islamic state also, in Andalucia , Spain

http://www.alicante-costablanca-spain.com/images/alhambra-granada.jpg

http://static.flickr.com/187/445159732_eaa9edb28d.jpg

http://farm4.static.flickr.com/3478/3201837112_75a0c995f9.jpg

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_vkE6clryLFo/TUIZgDU2QeI/AAAAAAAAAO8/uK0gBrIxsjg/s1600/alhambra+lions.jpg

http://www.mimifroufrou.com/scentedsalamander/alhambra-Garden.jpg

http://www.ivu.org/veganfest/2011/pict/alhambra2.jpg

More about islamic golden age, when science bloomed
http://www.1001inventions.com/

Islamic science , during Golden age of islam
http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/200703/rediscovering.arabic.science.htm

You have to ask yourself 'why is the most im portant and praised islamic civilization found in europe and not the islamic world'?

The answer is obvious.

Europe has always been a christian stronghold, the muslim had to work with christians and jews and the muslims benefited most from it.

If muslims can create such a civilization for themselves, why then couldn't they recreate islamic spain elsewhere in the islamic world with the muslims?

From the moment the spanish reconquerd spain, it went from strenght to strenght, and european science and knowledge continued to expand, why didn't the muslims keep expanding if as people falsely claim that it was the muslims who introduced/created science?

Myth of Islamic Civilization Part 21 Myth of Islamic Civilization Part 21 - YouTube


Medieval Spain and Portugal were the scene of almost constant warfare between Muslims and Christians. Periodic raiding expeditions were sent from Al-Andalus to ravage the Iberian Christian kingdoms, bringing back booty and slaves. In raid against Lisbon, Portugal in 1189, for example, the Almohad caliph Yaqub al-Mansur took 3,000 female and child captives, while his governor of Córdoba, in a subsequent attack upon Silves, Portugal in 1191, took 3,000 Christian slaves.[31] From the 11th to the 19th century, North African Barbary Pirates engaged in Razzias, raids on European coastal towns, to capture Christian slaves to sell at slave markets in places such as Algeria and Morocco.[32][33] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Andalus

itruth
09-03-2012, 10:53 PM
http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/200703/images/rediscovering/sci_eye-070215411.jpg
The earliest known medical description of the eye, from a ninth-century work by Hunayn ibn Ishaq, is shown in this copy of a 12th-century manuscript at the Institute. Below: Kamal al-Din al-Farisi’s 13th-century demonstration of the separation of the visible spectrum of light by double refraction, reproduced in this display at the Institute for the History of Arab–Islamic Science in Frankfurt, helped advance the science of optics.

http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/200703/images/rediscovering/SCI_a024411_sm.jpg
The Canon of Medicine by Ibn Sina (known as Avicenna in the West) was first translated from Arabic into Latin in the 12th century and into Hebrew in 1279. It served as the chief guide to medical science in Europe and was used in medical schools there until the mid-17th century

http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/200703/images/rediscovering/SCI_BAL_253429_sm.jpg
This translation of Euclid’s Elements of Geometry is by the Persian scholar Nasir al-Din al-Tusi. The work is among the earliest Greek treatises on mathematics.

http://www.saudiaramcoworld.com/issue/200703/images/rediscovering/SCI_DSC_5080_sm.jpg
Mansur ibn Ilyas’s 14th-century work on anatomy contained illustrated chapters on five systems of the body: bones, nerves, muscles, veins and arteries. This page depicts the arteries, with the internal organs shown in watercolors

Muslim Heritage In Our Homes - introduced by HM Queen Rania - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lEx-bLgG8Ds)

Hunayn ibn Ishaq was a christian, and this proves that much of what people attribute to muslims has actually come from non muslims.

Like Hunayn ibn Ishaq, on first glace a person could easily be fooled into thinking that Hunayn ibn Ishaq was a muslim, but he was not a muslim, he was a christian. I once came acorss some info which showed that out of 20 of the top historic middleasten, etc great scientists/philosophers etc.. around 1 or 2 were muslims (i am still trying to track that down).

People see an arabic name and assume the person was a muslim when in fact they were not:

It was because of people like Hunayn ibn Ishaq why and how the muslims actually got hold of the greek information anyway.

Ḥunayn was a Nestorian Christian who studied medicine in Baghdad and became well versed in ancient Greek. He was appointed by Caliph al-Mutawakkil to the post of chief physician to the court, a position that he held for the rest of his life. He traveled to Syria, Palestine, and Egypt to gather ancient Greek manuscripts, and, from his translators’ school in Baghdad, he and his students transmitted Arabic and (more frequently) Syriac versions of the classical Greek texts throughout the Islāmic world. Especially important are his translations of Galen, most of the original Greek manuscripts of which are lost. http://www.britannica.com/EBchecked/topic/276461/Hunayn-ibn-Ishaq

It has been disputed whether Muhammad owed most to Jewish or Christian predecessors, apparently he owed a great deal to both. But when we come to the 'Abbasid period when Greek literature and science began to tell upon Arabic thought, there can be no further question. The heritage of Greece was passed on by the Christian Church. [page 46].
This passage leads naturally to Chapter IV, titled the Nestorians. In this chapter O'Leary discusses the Nestorian contribution in the transmission of Greek knowledge to the Arabs. I can only cite piefly, as it is a lengthy chapter. In pief, through the many schools the "Nestorians" (Assyrian Church of the East) founded, including the Schools at Edessa, Nisibis, and Jundi-Shapur, the Greek works were translated into Syriac for use in the curriculums. These works included Theophania, Martyrs of Palestine, and Ecclesiastical History by Eusebius; the Isagoge of Porphyry (an introduction to logic); Aristotle's Hermeneutica and Analytica Priora; and many, many others. O'Leary states:
In the first place Hibha [a Nestorian] had introduced the Aristotelian logic to illustrate and explain the theological teaching of Theodore, of Mopseustia, and that logic remained permanently the necessary introduction to the theological study in all Nestorian education. Ultimately it was the Aristotelian logic which, with the Greek medical, astronomical, and mathematical writers, was passed on to the Arabs. [page 61] Syriac Christians Passed Greek Science to the Arabs http://phoenicia.org/xtiantranslateforarabs.html#ixzz1ogf3Lwvt


Unbelievers vs Believers Achievements 135 Unbelievers vs Believers Achievements - YouTube

picha
09-03-2012, 11:54 PM
You have to ask yourself 'why is the most im portant and praised islamic civilization found in europe and not the islamic world'?

The answer is obvious.

Europe has always been a christian stronghold, the muslim had to work with christians and jews and the muslims benefited most from it.

If muslims can create such a civilization for themselves, why then couldn't they recreate islamic spain elsewhere in the islamic world with the muslims?

From the moment the spanish reconquerd spain, it went from strenght to strenght, and european science and knowledge continued to expand, why didn't the muslims keep expanding if as people falsely claim that it was the muslims who introduced/created science?

Myth of Islamic Civilization Part 21 Myth of Islamic Civilization Part 21 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bms8U9Dgmag)


Medieval Spain and Portugal were the scene of almost constant warfare between Muslims and Christians. Periodic raiding expeditions were sent from Al-Andalus to ravage the Iberian Christian kingdoms, bringing back booty and slaves. In raid against Lisbon, Portugal in 1189, for example, the Almohad caliph Yaqub al-Mansur took 3,000 female and child captives, while his governor of Córdoba, in a subsequent attack upon Silves, Portugal in 1191, took 3,000 Christian slaves.[31] From the 11th to the 19th century, North African Barbary Pirates engaged in Razzias, raids on European coastal towns, to capture Christian slaves to sell at slave markets in places such as Algeria and Morocco.[32][33] http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Andalus

It just doesn't stack up that muslims were great scientists and inventors. They have produced nothing for hundreds of years which is quite strange considering the vast wealth of the gulf states.

luciferhorus
10-03-2012, 12:12 AM
It just doesn't stack up that muslims were great scientists and inventors. They have produced nothing for hundreds of years which is quite strange considering the vast wealth of the gulf states.

Well if a scientist discovers something it is, to state the obvious, because the scientist is being scientific; it is not because he is a member of a particular name brand of religious fanaticism?

If one extended the "Muslims were great scientists because they were Muslims" argument to the Jewish people for example, that would not likely be accepted by the Muslims. After all 22% of "all" Noble prize winners have been persons of Jewish ancestry, and yet the Jewish population of the world is insignifantly tiny in comparison to the Muslims. Were they great scientists because their ancestors were into the Judaic religion. or were they great scientists because they were thinking scientifically?

The Jewish culture is of course one where parents encourage their children to become highly educated; they want children who are doctors, lawyers, academics, scientists, great artists and musicians and who economically prosper. Whereas Muslim parents generally want their children to become religious fanatics; and to be blunt the Muslims breed like fucking rabbits and many cannot afford to educate their children.

I have been to many predominately Muslim countries and frankly much of the population of those nations seem to be rather primitive fanatics and not really what I would consider "highly educated;" they are generally of a superstitious mindset, as opposed to scientific and rational mindset. The minority who are the educated middle classes of such nations are generally more secular (non religious) if anything.

Lux

ciko
10-03-2012, 10:13 AM
How long were the muslims reciting and bowing down to satans revelations?

‘Satan MADE him [muhummad] repeat these two phrases: These idols are high and their intercession is expected. Then Apostle of Allah repeated them, and he went on reciting the whole surah and then fell in prostration, and the people also fell in prostration with him. Ibn Sa’ad’s Kitab Al-Tabaqat Al-Kabir’.


Wow, so muhummad led people into worshipping satan. But the question is, how long were the muslims bowing down and prostrating themselves to satanic revelations?

oh my God, I KNOW THAT YOU WERE A LIAR BUT NOT SOOO BIG LIAR.

I HAVE STUDIED MUHAMMES LIFE IN DETAILS, I HAVE BOOKS ABOUT MUHAMMEDS LIFE IN DETAILS, I CAN ONLY SAY THIS, THAT IS A BIG LIE, MUHAMED NEVER PROSTRATED IN FRONT OF IDOLS, HE NEVER WORSHIP SATAN.

i just feel sorry for people who believe such stupidities :(

itruth
10-03-2012, 04:20 PM
oh my God, I KNOW THAT YOU WERE A LIAR BUT NOT SOOO BIG LIAR.

I HAVE STUDIED MUHAMMES LIFE IN DETAILS, I HAVE BOOKS ABOUT MUHAMMEDS LIFE IN DETAILS, I CAN ONLY SAY THIS, THAT IS A BIG LIE, MUHAMED NEVER PROSTRATED IN FRONT OF IDOLS, HE NEVER WORSHIP SATAN.

i just feel sorry for people who believe such stupidities :(

oh my God, I KNOW THAT YOU WERE A LIAR BUT NOT SOOO BIG LIAR.

I am a liar?

Ibn Sa’ad is a liar too?

Ibn kathir is a liar too?

Al Jalalayn is a liar too?

Al tabari is a liar too?



TAFSIR AL JALALAYN:

The Prophet (s) had, during an assembly of the [men of] Quraysh, after reciting the [following verses from] sūrat al-Najm, Have you considered Lāt and ‘Uzzā? And Manāt, the third one? [53:19-20] added, as a result of Satan casting them onto his tongue ‘those are the high-flying cranes and indeed their intercession is to be hoped for’.

Gabriel, however, LATER informed him [the Prophet] of this that Satan had cast onto his tongue and he was grieved by it; but was [subsequently] comforted with this following verse that he might be reassured [of God’s pleasure]: there at God abrogates, nullifies, whatever Satan had cast. Tafsir al Jalalayn
http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=22&tAyahNo=52&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0

Ibn Kathir, muhummad got revelations from satan http://quran.al-islam.com/Page.aspx?pageid=221&BookID=11&SuraNum=22&AyaNum=52

"When Muhammad brought a revelation from Allah canceling what Satan had cast on the tongue of His Prophet, the Quraysh said, 'Muhammad has repented of [reneged on] what he said concerning the position of our gods with Allah. He has altered [the bargain] and brought something else.' Those two phrases which Satan had cast on Muhammad's tongue of were in the mouth of every polytheist. The Messenger said, 'I have fabricated things against Allah and have imputed to Him words which He has not spoken.'al-Tabari[/B] –Muhammad at Mecca)


I HAVE STUDIED MUHAMMES LIFE IN DETAILS, I HAVE BOOKS ABOUT MUHAMMEDS LIFE IN DETAILS, I CAN ONLY SAY THIS, THAT IS A BIG LIE, MUHAMED NEVER PROSTRATED IN FRONT OF IDOLS, HE NEVER WORSHIP SATAN.

I would recommend you throw those books you have in the dustbin. Yeah I know those books, the ones which say gabriel told muhummad 3 times to recite, which mentioning that ever time muhummad didn't recite gabriel strangled muhummad. Its kinda obvious why they feel the need to leave that part out.

In fact the koran confirms that satan did give muhummad revelations:

Never sent We a messenger or a prophet before thee but when He recited (the message) Satan proposed (opposition) in respect of that which he recited thereof. But Allah abolisheth that which Satan proposeth. Then Allah establisheth His revelations. Allah is Knower, Wise; Surah 22:52

If it didn't happen allah wouldn't have had to abolish anything.

William Montgomery Watt and Alfred Guillaume claim that stories of the event were true based upon the implausibility of Muslims fabricating a story so unflattering to their prophet: "Muhammad must have publicly recited the satanic verses as part of the Qur'ān; it is unthinkable that the story could have been invented by Muslims, or foisted upon them by non-Muslims."[ Satanic Verses - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

29 Idiots Guide to Islam- The Satanic Verses - Part 29 - YouTube

ciko
10-03-2012, 04:38 PM
I am a liar?

Ibn Sa’ad is a liar too?

Ibn kathir is a liar too?

Al Jalalayn is a liar too?

Al tabari is a liar too?


TAFSIR AL JALALAYN:

The Prophet (s) had, during an assembly of the [men of] Quraysh, after reciting the [following verses from] sūrat al-Najm, Have you considered Lāt and ‘Uzzā? And Manāt, the third one? [53:19-20] added, as a result of Satan casting them onto his tongue ‘those are the high-flying cranes and indeed their intercession is to be hoped for’.

Gabriel, however, LATER informed him [the Prophet] of this that Satan had cast onto his tongue and he was grieved by it; but was [subsequently] comforted with this following verse that he might be reassured [of God’s pleasure]: there at God abrogates, nullifies, whatever Satan had cast. Tafsir al Jalalayn
http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=22&tAyahNo=52&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0

Ibn Kathir, muhummad got revelations from satan http://quran.al-islam.com/Page.aspx?pageid=221&BookID=11&SuraNum=22&AyaNum=52

"When Muhammad brought a revelation from Allah canceling what Satan had cast on the tongue of His Prophet, the Quraysh said, 'Muhammad has repented of [reneged on] what he said concerning the position of our gods with Allah. He has altered [the bargain] and brought something else.' Those two phrases which Satan had cast on Muhammad's tongue of were in the mouth of every polytheist. The Messenger said, 'I have fabricated things against Allah and have imputed to Him words which He has not spoken.'al-Tabari[/B] –Muhammad at Mecca)




I would recommend you throw those books you have in the dustbin. Yeah I know those books, the ones which say gabriel told muhummad 3 times to recite, which mentioning that ever time muhummad didn't recite gabriel strangled muhummad. Its kinda obvious why they feel the need to leave that part out.

In fact the koran confirms that satan did give muhummad revelations:

Never sent We a messenger or a prophet before thee but when He recited (the message) Satan proposed (opposition) in respect of that which he recited thereof. But Allah abolisheth that which Satan proposeth. Then Allah establisheth His revelations. Allah is Knower, Wise; Surah 22:52

If it didn't happen allah wouldn't have had to abolish anything.

William Montgomery Watt and Alfred Guillaume claim that stories of the event were true based upon the implausibility of Muslims fabricating a story so unflattering to their prophet: "Muhammad must have publicly recited the satanic verses as part of the Qur'ān; it is unthinkable that the story could have been invented by Muslims, or foisted upon them by non-Muslims."[ Satanic Verses - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Satanic_Verses)

29 Idiots Guide to Islam- The Satanic Verses - Part 29 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=29mCRzDeeBY)

yes you are a liar

but if you believe that, keep doing it and be in your delusion.

So you are saying that quran was revealed to muhamed from Satan, let see what satan said about himself

Imagine Satan says bout himself this


2:208 O believers, come to full submission to God. Do not follow in the footsteps of Satan, he is indeed your manifest enemy.

35:6 Satan is your enemy––so treat him as an enemy––and invites his followers only to enter the blazing fire.

do you really think satan would say this to muhammed?? :D

no wonder why God call you deluded people

6:39 And those who deny Our signs, they are deaf and dumb, in darkness. Whoever God wishes He misguides, and whoever He wishes He makes him on a straight path.

itruth
11-03-2012, 01:51 AM
yes you are a liar

but if you believe that, keep doing it and be in your delusion.

So you are saying that quran was revealed to muhamed from Satan, let see what satan said about himself

Imagine Satan says bout himself this


2:208 O believers, come to full submission to God. Do not follow in the footsteps of Satan, he is indeed your manifest enemy.

35:6 Satan is your enemy––so treat him as an enemy––and invites his followers only to enter the blazing fire.

do you really think satan would say this to muhammed?? :D

no wonder why God call you deluded people

6:39 And those who deny Our signs, they are deaf and dumb, in darkness. Whoever God wishes He misguides, and whoever He wishes He makes him on a straight path.

yes you are a liar

Joker!

So quoting some of the MOST AUTHORITIVE people/scholars in islam makes me a liar? How so? Is ibn kathir a liar also? What about al jalalayn, ibn saad, al tabari, are they liars too?

THEY ARE THE ONES WHO AUTHENTICATE the story of muhummad getting revelations from satan. They are muslims right?

Call them liars!

“The Tafsir of Ibn Kathir is of the most respected and accepted explanations for the Quran and is the most widely used explanations in Arabic used today.” http://www.qtafsir.com/

Tafsir Ibn Kathir is famous all over the Muslim world and among Muslims in the Western world, is one of the most widely used explanations of the Qu'ran today. Ibn Kathir is known as a qadi, a master scholar of history, also a muhaddith and a mufassir (Qur'an commentator) Ibn Kathir - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

Tafsīr al-Jalālayn (Tafsir of the two Jalals) is a classical Sunni tafsir of the Qur'an, composed first by Jalal ad-Din al-Mahalli in 1459 and then completed by his student Jalal ad-Din as-Suyuti in 1505, thus its name. It is recognised as one of the most popular exegeses of the Qur'an today http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tafsir_al-Jalalayn

hobo
11-03-2012, 09:08 AM
God urges people in quran to explore universe and nature :

3:190 In the creation of the heavens and the earth, and the alternation of night and day, there are Signs for people with intelligence:

191 who remember God standing, sitting, and lying down, who reflect on the creation of the heavens and earth: ‘Our Lord! You have not created all this without purpose- You are far above that!- so protect us from the torment of the Fire.




why do you lie here, SCIENTISTS IN CHRISTIAN COUNTRIES were actually persecuted NOT IN ISLAMIC STATE.


Not my words, but the words of the scolars: Joseph Ernest Renan and Gustave von Grunebaum.

Renan:
"Science and philosophy flourished on islamic ground throughout the first half of the Middle Ages: But it was not because of islam, but in spite of it. Not one muslim philosopher or scientist escaped persecution. The persecution in the mentioned period is less intense than the instinct for free research, and the rational tradition is kept alive, but then intolerance and fanaticism takes over. It is true that also the christian church tried to hinder the science of the Middle Ages; but it didn´t smother it like the islamic theology did.

To give islam the credit for Averroes, and so many other brilliant thinkers, who spent half of their lives in prison, was forced to live underground or in disgrace, whos books were burnt etc., is like giving the credit to the inquisition for the discoveries of Galilei, and for the entire scientific evolution, which it wasn´t able to prevent".

And btw; calling people liars every other minute doesn´t help your case ciko. If you want to convince us of the wonders of islam, you have to demonstrate it with valid arguments.
So far you have only demonstrated your blind faith, your stupidity and your ridiculous superiority-complex. But do continue ciko. You do a splendid job as a warning-sign to stay the hell away from islam :D

ciko
11-03-2012, 09:33 AM
Joker!

So quoting some of the MOST AUTHORITIVE people/scholars in islam makes me a liar? How so? Is ibn kathir a liar also? What about al jalalayn, ibn saad, al tabari, are they liars too?

THEY ARE THE ONES WHO AUTHENTICATE the story of muhummad getting revelations from satan. They are muslims right?

Call them liars!

“The Tafsir of Ibn Kathir is of the most respected and accepted explanations for the Quran and is the most widely used explanations in Arabic used today.” http://www.qtafsir.com/

Tafsir Ibn Kathir is famous all over the Muslim world and among Muslims in the Western world, is one of the most widely used explanations of the Qu'ran today. Ibn Kathir is known as a qadi, a master scholar of history, also a muhaddith and a mufassir (Qur'an commentator) Ibn Kathir - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ibn_Kathir)

Tafsīr al-Jalālayn (Tafsir of the two Jalals) is a classical Sunni tafsir of the Qur'an, composed first by Jalal ad-Din al-Mahalli in 1459 and then completed by his student Jalal ad-Din as-Suyuti in 1505, thus its name. It is recognised as one of the most popular exegeses of the Qur'an today http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tafsir_al-Jalalayn



Call them liars!

“The Tafsir of Ibn Kathir is of the most respected and accepted explanations for the Quran and is the most widely used explanations in Arabic used today.” http://www.qtafsir.com/

i have whole Ibn kathir tafsir on my computer i he never said that muhammed worship satan, that is stupidity beyond limits

here is Ibn kathir commenting those verse about Lat, UZZAT and MAnat


http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1691&Itemid=109


Refuting Idolatry, Al-Lat and Al-`Uzza

Allah the Exalted rebukes the idolators for worshipping idols and taking rivals to Him. They built houses for their idols to resemble the Ka`bah built by Prophet Ibrahim, Allah's Khalil.

﴿أَفَرَءَيْتُمُ اللَّـتَ﴾

(Have you then considered Al-Lat,) Al-Lat was a white stone with inscriptions on. There was a house built around Al-Lat in At-Ta'if with curtains, servants and a sacred courtyard around it. The people of At-Ta'if, the tribe of Thaqif and their allies, worshipped Al-Lat. They would boast to Arabs, except the Quraysh, that they had Al-Lat. Ibn Jarir said, "They derived Al-Lat's name from Allah's Name, and made it feminine. Allah is far removed from what they ascribe to Him. It was reported that Al-Lat is pronounced Al-Lat because, according to `Abdullah bin `Abbas, Mujahid, and Ar-Rabi` bin Anas, Al-Lat was a man who used to mix Sawiq (a kind of barley mash) with water for the pilgrims during the time of Jahiliyyah. When he died, they remained next to his grave and worshipped him.'' Al-Bukhari recorded that Ibn `Abbas said about Allah's statement,

﴿اللَّـتَ وَالْعُزَّى﴾

(Al-Lat, and Al-`Uzza.) "Al-Lat was a man who used to mix Sawiq for the pilgrims.'' Ibn Jarir said, "They also derived the name for their idol Al-`Uzza from Allah's Name Al-`Aziz. Al-`Uzza was a tree on which the idolators placed a monument and curtains, in the area of Nakhlah, between Makkah and At-Ta'if. The Quraysh revered Al-`Uzza.'' During the battle of Uhud, Abu Sufyan said, "We have Al-`Uzza, but you do not have Al-`Uzza.'' Allah's Messenger replied,

«قُولُوا: اللهُ مَوْلَانَا وَلَا مَوْلَى لَكُم»

(Say, "Allah is Our Supporter, but you have no support.'') Manat was another idol in the area of Mushallal near Qudayd, between Makkah and Al-Madinah. The tribes of Khuza`ah, Aws and Khazraj used to revere Manat during the time of Jahiliyyah. They used to announce Hajj to the Ka`bah from next to Manat. Al-Bukhari collected a statement from `A'ishah with this meaning. There were other idols in the Arabian Peninsula that the Arabs revered just as they revered the Ka`bah, besides the three idols that Allah mentioned in His Glorious Book. Allah mentioned these three here because they were more famous than the others. An-Nasa'i recorded that Abu At-Tufayl said, "When the Messenger of Allah conquered Makkah, he sent Khalid bin Al-Walid to the area of Nakhlah where the idol of Al-`Uzza was erected on three trees of a forest. Khalid cut the three trees and approached the house built around it and destroyed it. When he went back to the Prophet and informed him of the story, the Prophet said to him,

«ارْجِعْ فَإِنَّكَ لَمْ تَصْنَعْ شَيْئًا»

(Go back and finish your mission, for you have not finished it.) Khalid went back and when the custodians who were also its servants of Al-`Uzza saw him, they started invoking by calling Al-`Uzza! When Khalid approached it, he found a naked woman whose hair was untidy and who was throwing sand on her head. Khalid killed her with the sword and went back to the Messenger of Allah , who said to him,

«تِلْكَ الْعُزَّى»

(That was Al-`Uzza!)'' Muhammad bin Ishaq narrated, "Al-Lat belonged to the tribe of Thaqif in the area of At-Ta'if. Banu Mu`attib were the custodians of Al-Lat and its servants.'' I say that the Prophet sent Al-Mughirah bin Shu`bah and Abu Sufyan Sakhr bin Harb to destroy Al-Lat. They carried out the Prophet's command and built a Masjid in its place in the city of At-Ta'if. Muhammad bin Ishaq said that Manat used to be the idol of the Aws and Khazraj tribes and those who followed their religion in Yathrib (Al-Madinah). Manat was near the coast, close to the area of Mushallal in Qudayd. The Prophet sent Abu Sufyan Sakhr bin Harb or `Ali bin Abi Talib to demolish it. Ibn Ishaq said that Dhul-Khalasah was the idol of the tribes of Daws, Khath`am and Bajilah, and the Arabs who resided in the area of Tabalah. I say that Dhul-Khalasah was called the Southern Ka`bah, and the Ka`bah in Makkah was called the Northern Ka`bah. The Messenger of Allah sent Jarir bin `Abdullah Al-Bajali to Dhul-Khalasah and he destroyed it. Ibn Ishaq said that Fals was the idol of Tay' and the neighboring tribes in the Mount of Tay', such as Salma and Ajja. Ibn Hisham said that some scholars of knowledge told him that the Messenger of Allah sent `Ali bin Abi Talib to Fals and he destroyed it and found two swords in its treasure, which the Prophet then gave to `Ali as war spoils. Muhammad bin Ishaq also said that the tribes of Himyar, and Yemen in general, had a house of worship in San`a' called Riyam. He mentioned that there was a black dog in it and that the religious men who went with Tubba` removed it, killed it and demolished the building. Ibn Ishaq said that Ruda' was a structure of Bani Rabi`ah bin Ka`b bin Sa`d bin Zayd Manat bin Tamim, which Al-Mustawghir bin Rabi`ah bin Ka`b bin Sa`d demolished after Islam. In Sindad there was Dhul-Ka`bat, the idol of the tribes of Bakr and Taghlib, the sons of the Wa'il, and also the Iyad tribes.


where the hell do you see ibn kathir saying that muhammmed worshiped satan, you are such a liar.

h2pogo
11-03-2012, 09:38 AM
It just doesn't stack up that muslims were great scientists and inventors. They have produced nothing for hundreds of years which is quite strange considering the vast wealth of the gulf states.

The great man made river project was possibly the largest humainitarian and enjineering project ever taken.
And
Muslims invented the safest car in the world

http://www.emirates247.com/news/check-out-gaddafi-s-safest-car-in-the-world-2011-07-27-1.410005

ciko
11-03-2012, 09:39 AM
Not my words, but the words of the scolars: Joseph Ernest Renan and Gustave von Grunebaum.

Renan:
"Science and philosophy flourished on islamic ground throughout the first half of the Middle Ages: But it was not because of islam, but in spite of it. Not one muslim philosopher or scientist escaped persecution. The persecution in the mentioned period is less intense than the instinct for free research, and the rational tradition is kept alive, but then intolerance and fanaticism takes over. It is true that also the christian church tried to hinder the science of the Middle Ages; but it didn´t smother it like the islamic theology did.

To give islam the credit for Averroes, and so many other brilliant thinkers, who spent half of their lives in prison, was forced to live underground or in disgrace, whos books were burnt etc., is like giving the credit to the inquisition for the discoveries of Galilei, and for the entire scientific evolution, which it wasn´t able to prevent".

And btw; calling people liars every other minute doesn´t help your case ciko. If you want to convince us of the wonders of islam, you have to demonstrate it with valid arguments.
So far you have only demonstrated your blind faith, your stupidity and your ridiculous superiority-complex. But do continue ciko. You do a splendid job as a warning-sign to stay the hell away from islam :D



And btw; calling people liars every other minute doesn´t help your case ciko.

read my post above to iTruth, and see why i call him liar, with evidence...


If you want to convince us of the wonders of islam, you have to demonstrate it with valid arguments.

i have posted several arguments but you dont listen, even your scientists in western world say that such info in quran can only come from God, but you dont even listen to them eighter, so why should you listen to me,

Scientists confirm Quran is true - YouTube

* [Holy] Quran : Top Scientists Comments on Scientific Miracles in the Quran * # Faith and Science # - YouTube

true are the words of God

God says:

6:11 Even if We sent the angels down to them, and the dead spoke to them, and We gathered all things right in front of them, they still would not believe, unless God so willed, but most of them are ignorant [of this].


So far you have only demonstrated your blind faith, your stupidity and your ridiculous superiority-complex.

superiority-complex, what are you talking about, i am nobody here...


But do continue ciko. You do a splendid job as a warning-sign to stay the hell away from islam

i shall ;) dont worry

ciko
11-03-2012, 10:47 AM
Beautiful quran recitation with english translation, amazing voices

fatiha, amazing quran recitation - YouTube

Mishary reciting Quran when he was younger, so beautiful, i am speechless - YouTube

Most beautiful quran recitation , islamic prayer, Fahd Al Kanderi - YouTube

A boy leading prayer, most beautiful Quran recitation in the world, must listen - YouTube

Most beautiful Quran recitation - YouTube


beautiful call to prayer
Most beautiful ADHAN by Mansoor Zahrani - YouTube

Very beautiful Adhan, islamic call to prayer - YouTube

Beautiful Adhan, islamic call to prayer, incredible voice - YouTube

Super emotional ADHAN, english subtitles, MUST LISTEN - YouTube

Best Adhan in the world, muslim call to prayer - YouTube

adhan from bosnia - YouTube

ciko
11-03-2012, 11:13 AM
The Documentary that convince Atheists to believe in God - The Signs HD - Full
The Documentary that convince Atheists to believe in God - The Signs HD - Full - YouTube


THE FINE TUNING IN THE UNIVERSE

He Who created the seven heavens in layers. You will not find any flaw in the creation of the All-Merciful. Look again-do you see any gaps? Then look again and again. Your sight will return to you dazzled and exhausted! (Qur'an, 67:3-4)

Do you not see how He created seven heavens in layers? (Qur'an, 71:15)

He to Whom the kingdom of the heavens and the earth belongs. He does not have a son and He has no partner in the Kingdom. He created everything and determined it most exactly. (Qur'an, 25:2)

Materialist philosophy emerged with the claim that all the systems in nature and the universe were like machines that functioned on their own, that the flawless order and balance within them were the work of chance. However, today, the false nature of materialism and of Darwinism, its so-called scientific foundation, has been scientifically demonstrated. (See Harun Yahya, The Evolution Deceit, 8th ed., Taha Publishers, 2004 and Darwinism Refuted, Goodword Books, 2003.)

The scientific discoveries of the 20th century that followed swiftly, one after the other, in the fields of astrophysics and biology have proved that life and the universe were created. As the theses of Darwinism collapsed, the Big Bang theory has shown that the universe was created from nothing. Discoveries have revealed that there is a great design and fine-tuning in the material world and this has categorically demonstrated the groundless nature of the claims of materialism.

Considering the conditions necessary for life, we see that only the Earth meets these particular conditions. For an environment suitable for life, there are innumerable conditions taking place simultaneously and unceasingly all around us. There are some hundred billion galaxies, each with-on average-a hundred billion stars. In all the galaxies, there are perhaps as many planets as stars.8 In the face of such overpowering numbers, one can better comprehend the significance of the formation of such an exceptional environment on the Earth.

From the force of the Big Bang explosion to the physical values of atoms, from the levels of the four basic forces to the chemical processes in the stars, from the type of light emitted by the Sun to the level of viscosity of water, from the distance of the Moon to the Earth to the level of gases in the atmosphere, from the Earth's distance from the Sun to its angle of tilt to its orbit, and from the speed at which the Earth revolves around its own axis to the functions of the oceans and mountains on the Earth: every single detail is ideally suited to our lives. Today, the world of science describes these features by means of the concepts of the "Anthropic Principle" and "Fine-Tuning." These concepts summarise the way that the universe is not an aimless, uncontrolled, chance collection of matter but that it has a purpose directed towards human life and has been designed with the greatest precision.

Attention is drawn in the above verses to the measure and harmony in Allah's creation. The word "taqdeeran," meaning "to design, measure, create by measuring," is employed in Qur'anic verses such as Surat al-Furqan 2. The word "tibaqan," meaning "in harmony," is used in Surat al-Mulk 3 and Surah Nuh 15. Furthermore, Allah also reveals in Surat al-Mulk with the word "tafawutin," meaning "disagreement, violation, non-conformity, disorder, opposite," that those who seek disharmony will fail to find it.

The term "fine-tuning," which began to be used towards the end of the 20th century, represents this truth revealed in the verses. Over the last quarter-century or so, a great many scientists, intellectuals and writers have shown that the universe is not a collection of coincidences. On the contrary, it has an extraordinary design and order ideally suited to human life in its every detail. (See Harun Yahya, The Creation of the Universe, Al-Attique Publishers, November 2002 and A Chain of Miracles, Global Publishing, May 2004.) Many features in the universe clearly show that the universe has been specially designed to support life. The physicist Dr. Karl Giberson expresses this fact thus:

In the 1960s, some physicists observed that our universe appears to have been fine-tuned for the existence of human life. 9

The British astrophysicist Professor George F. Ellis refers to this fine-tuning in these terms:

Amazing fine tuning occurs in the laws that make this [complexity] possible. Realization of the complexity of what is accomplished makes it very difficult not to use the word "miraculous" without taking a stand as to the ontological status of the word. 10

The speed of the Big Bang explosion:

The balances established with the Big Bang, the instantaneous formation of the universe, are one of the proofs that the universe did not come into being by chance. According to the well-known Adelaide University professor of mathematical physics Paul Davies, if the rate of expansion that took place following the Big Bang had been just one in a billion billion parts different (1/1018), the universe could not have come into being.11 In his book A Brief History of Time, Stephen Hawking recognises this extraordinary precision in the universe's rate of expansion:

If the rate of expansion one second after the big bang had been smaller by even one part in a hundred thousand million million, the universe would have recollapsed before it ever reached its present size. 12

The Four Forces:

All physical motion in the universe comes about thanks to the interaction and equilibrium of the four forces recognised by modern physics: gravity, electromagnetic force, strong nuclear force and weak nuclear force. These forces possess extraordinarily different values to one another. Michael Denton, the famous molecular biologist, describes the extraordinary equilibrium among these forces thus:

If, for example, the gravitational force was a trillion times stronger, then the universe would be far smaller and its life history far shorter. An average star would have a mass a trillion times less than the sun and a life span of about one year. On the other hand, if gravity had been less powerful, no stars or galaxies would have ever formed. The other relationships and values are no less critical. If the strong force had been just slightly weaker, the only element that would be stable would be hydrogen. No other atoms could exist. If it had been slightly stronger in relation to electromagnetism, then an atomic nucleus consisting of only two protons would be a stable feature of the universe-which would mean there would be no hydrogen, and if any stars or galaxies evolved, they would be very different from the way they are. Clearly, if these various forces and constants did not have precisely the values they do, there would be no stars, no supernovae, no planets, no atoms, no life. 13

The Distances between Celestial Bodies:

The distribution of celestial bodies in space and the enormous spaces between them are essential to the existence of life on Earth. The distances between celestial bodies have been set out in a calculation compatible with a great many powerful universal forces in such a way as to support life on Earth. In his book Nature's Destiny Michael Denton describes the distance between supernovae and stars:

The distances between supernovae and indeed between all stars is critical for other reasons. The distance between stars in our galaxy is about 30 million miles. If this distance was much less, planetary orbits would be destabilized. If it was much more, then the debris thrown out by a supernova would be so diffusely distributed that planetary systems like our own would in all probability never form. If the cosmos is to be a home for life, then the flickering of the supernovae must occur at a very precise rate and the average distance between them, and indeed between all stars, must be very close to the actual observed figure. 14

Gravity:

- If gravity were stronger, excessive ammonia and methane would collect in the Earth's atmosphere, which would have a most damaging effect on life.

- If it were weaker, the Earth's atmosphere would lose excessive quantities of water, making life impossible.

The Earth's Distance from the Sun:

- If this were any greater, the planet would grow very cold, the water cycle in the atmosphere would be affected, and the planet would enter an ice-age.

- If the Earth were any closer to the Sun, plants would burn up, the water cycle in the Earth's atmosphere would be irreparably damaged, and life would become impossible.-

The Thickness of the Earth's Crust:

- If the crust were any thicker, then an excessive amount of oxygen would be transferred to it from the atmosphere.
- If it were any thinner, the resulting amount of volcanic activity would make life impossible.

The Speed at which the Earth Revolves:

If this were any slower, the temperature difference between day and night would grow enormously.

-If it were any faster, then atmospheric winds would reach enormous speeds, and cyclones and storms would make life impossible.

The Earth's Magnetic Field:

- If this were any more powerful, very strong electromagnetic storms would arise.

- If it were any weaker, then the Earth would lose its protection against the harmful particles given off by the Sun and known as solar winds. Both situations would make life impossible.-

The Albedo Effect (Ratio between the amount of light the Earth reflects and the amount of light that is absorbed):

- If this were any greater, an ice-age would rapidly result.

- If it were any less, the greenhouse effect would lead to excessive warming. The Earth would first be flooded with the melting of the glaciers, and would then burn up.-

The Proportion of Oxygen and Nitrogen in the Atmosphere:

- If this were any greater, vital functions would be adversely accelerated.

- If it were any less, vital functions would adversely slow down.

The Proportion of Carbon Dioxide and Water in the Atmosphere:

- If this were any greater, the atmosphere would overheat.

- If it were any less, the temperature of the atmosphere would fall.

The Thickness of the Ozone Layer:

- If this were any greater, the Earth's temperature would fall enormously.

- If it were any less, the Earth would overheat and be defenceless against the harmful ultraviolet rays emitted by the Sun.

Seismic Activity (Earthquakes):

- If this were any greater, there would be constant upheaval for living things.

- If it were any less, the nutrients at the sea bottom would fail to spread into the water. This would have a damaging effect on life in the seas and oceans and all living things on Earth.-

The Earth's Angle of Tilt:

The Earth has a 23 degree angle of inclination to its orbit. It is this inclination that gives rise to the seasons. If this angle were any greater or any less than it is now, the temperature difference between the seasons would reach extreme dimensions, with unbearably hot summers and bitterly cold winters.

The Size of the Sun:

A smaller star than the Sun would mean the Earth would freeze and a larger star would lead to its burning up.

The Attraction between the Earth and the Moon:

- If this were any greater, the powerful attraction of the Moon would have extremely serious effects on atmospheric conditions, the speed at which the Earth revolves around its own axis and on the ocean tides.

- If it were any less, this would lead to extreme climate changes.-

The Distance between the Earth and the Moon:

- If they were just a little closer, the Moon would crash into the Earth.

- If they were any further, the Moon would become lost in space.

- If they were even a little closer, the Moon's effect on the Earth's tides would reach dangerous dimensions. Ocean waves would inundate low-lying areas. The friction emerging as a result of this would raise the temperature of the oceans and the sensitive temperature balance essential to life on Earth would disappear.

- If they were even a little further away, the tides would decrease, leading the oceans to be less mobile. Immobile water would endanger life in the seas, and the level of the oxygen we breathe would be endangered. 15

The Temperature of the Earth and Carbon-Based Life:

The existence of carbon, the basis of all life, depends on the temperature remaining within specific limits. Carbon is an essential substance for organic molecules such as amino-acid, nucleic acid and protein: These constitute the basis of life. For that reason, life can only be carbon-based. Given this, the existing temperature needs to be no lower than -20 degrees and no higher than 120 degrees Celsius. These are just the temperature limits on Earth.

These are just a few of the exceedingly sensitive balances which are essential for life on Earth to have emerged and to survive. Yet even these are sufficient to definitively reveal that the Earth and the universe could not have come into being as the result of a number of consecutive coincidences. The concepts of "fine-tuning" and the "anthropic principle" that began to be employed in the 20th century are further evidence of Allah's creation. The harmony and proportion therein were described with magnificent accuracy fourteen centuries ago in the Qur'an.


8. Carl Sagan, Cosmos (Avenel, NJ: Wings Books: April 1983), 5-7.
9. Karl Giberson, “The Anthropic Principle,” Journal of Interdisciplinary Studies 9 (1997).
10. George F. Ellis, "The Anthropic Principle: Laws and Environments,” The Anthropic Principle, F. Bertola and U. Curi (New York: Cambridge University Press: 1993), 30.
11. Paul Davies, Superforce: The Search for a Grand Unified Theory of Nature, 1984, 184.
12. Stephen Hawking, A Brief History of Time (London: Bantam Press: 1988), 121-125.
13. Michael Denton, Nature's Destiny: How the Laws of Biology Reveal Purpose in the Universe (New York: The Free Press: 1998), 12-13.
14. Ibid., 11.
15. www.pathlights.com/ce_encyclopedia/01-ma10.htm#Elemental Forces.

itruth
11-03-2012, 11:22 AM
i have whole Ibn kathir tafsir on my computer i he never said that muhammed worship satan, that is stupidity beyond limits

here is Ibn kathir commenting those verse about Lat, UZZAT and MAnat


http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=1691&Itemid=109


where the hell do you see ibn kathir saying that muhammmed worshiped satan, you are such a liar.


where the hell do you see ibn kathir saying that muhammmed worshiped satan, you are such a liar

THIS IS IBN KATHIRS OWN WORDS:

"How the Shaytan threw some Falsehood into the Words of the Messengers, and how Allah abolished http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2494&Itemid=77"


Ciko, what does this say:

"(52. Never did We send a Messenger or a Prophet before you but when he did recite (the revelation or narrated or spoke), Shaytan threw (some falsehood) in his recitation (of the revelation)http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2495&Itemid=77#1

So according to the tafsir of ibn kathit satan DID throw things INTO THE REVELATION.

THEN allah abolished WHAT SATAN HAD THOWN IN. If there was nothing thrown iNTO THE REVELATION BY SATAN ALLAH WOULDN'T HAVE HAD TO ABOLISH WHAT SATAN HAD THROWN IN.

READ CAREFULLY:

That He (Allah) may make what is thrown in by Shaytan a trial for those in whose hearts is a disease and whose hearts are hardened.

Al-Bukhari said, "Ibn `Abbas said,

﴿فِى أُمْنِيَّتِهِ﴾

(in his recitation (of the revelation).) "When he spoke, the Shaytan threw (some falsehood) into his speech, but Allah abolished that which the Shaytan threw in.''

ITS RIGHT HERE..Try turning to the next page:

(But Yansakh Allah that which Shaytan throws in.) The meaning of the word Naskh in Arabic is to remove or lift away. `Ali bin Abi Talhah reported that Ibn `Abbas said, "This means, Allah cancels out that which the Shaytan throws in.'' Tafsir IBN KATHIR.http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2494&Itemid=77


TAFSIR IBN KATHIR SURA 22.52:

http://quran.al-islam.com/QuranImageGenerator.aspx?pageid=610&PageNum=338

The muslims who fled to ethiopia got word that muhummad had praised the meccan gods and made their return to mecca on account of the news.

Abu Dawood narrated Division for my father preached from Sa'eed ibn Jubayr said: read the Messenger of Allah peace be upon him in Mecca star when he reached this place, "Have you thought about Lat and Uzza and Manat the other third," he said threw the devil on his tongue:

Check out that authentic islamic site and take what ibn kathir is saying to google translate and you will see that he is recording the satanic verses affair.

THATS IBN KATHIR. http://quran.al-islam.com/Page.aspx?pageid=221&BookID=11&SuraNum=22&AyaNum=52

Now, what say you about al jalalayn?

The Prophet (s) had, during an assembly of the [men of] Quraysh, after reciting the [following verses from] sūrat al-Najm, Have you considered Lāt and ‘Uzzā? And Manāt, the third one? [53:19-20] added, as a result of Satan casting them onto his tongue ‘those are the high-flying cranes and indeed their intercession is to be hoped for’.

Gabriel, however, LATER informed him [the Prophet] of this that Satan had cast onto his tongue and he was grieved by it; but was [subsequently] comforted with this following verse that he might be reassured [of God’s pleasure]: thereat God abrogates, nullifies, whatever Satan had cast. Tafsir al Jalalayn
http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=22&tAyahNo=52&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0


TAFSIR AL JALALAYN: Satan threw revelations on the tongue of muhummad http://quran.al-islam.com/Page.aspx?pageid=221&BookID=12&Page=338#22-52

52** وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِنْ قَبْلِكَ مِنْ رَسُولٍ وَلَا نَبِيٍّ إِلَّا إِذَا تَمَنَّى أَلْقَى الشَّيْطَانُ فِي أُمْنِيَّتِهِ فَيَنْسَخُ اللَّهُ مَا يُلْقِي الشَّيْطَانُ ثُمَّ يُحْكِمُ اللَّهُ آيَاتِهِ وَاللَّهُ عَلِيمٌ حَكِيمٌ
"وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِنْ قَبْلك مِنْ رَسُول" هُوَ نَبِيّ أُمِرَ بِالتَّبْلِيغِ "وَلَا نَبِيّ" أَيْ لَمْ يُؤْمَر بِالتَّبْلِيغِ "إلَّا إذَا تَمَنَّى" قَرَأَ "أَلْقَى الشَّيْطَان فِي أَمْنِيَّته" قِرَاءَته مَا لَيْسَ مِنْ الْقُرْآن مِمَّا يَرْضَاهُ الْمُرْسَل إلَيْهِمْ وَقَدْ قَرَأَ النَّبِيّ صَلَّى اللَّه عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ فِي سُورَة النَّجْم بِمَجْلِسٍ مِنْ قُرَيْش بَعْد : "أَفَرَأَيْتُمْ اللَّاتَ وَالْعُزَّى وَمَنَاة الثَّالِثَة الْأُخْرَى" بِإِلْقَاءِ الشَّيْطَان عَلَى لِسَانه مِنْ غَيْر عِلْمه صَلَّى اللَّه عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ بِهِ : تِلْكَ الْغَرَانِيق الْعُلَا وَإِنَّ شَفَاعَتهنَّ لَتُرْتَجَى فَفَرِحُوا بِذَلِكَ ثُمَّ أَخْبَرَهُ جِبْرِيل بِمَا أَلْقَاهُ الشَّيْطَان عَلَى لِسَانه مِنْ ذَلِكَ فَحَزِنَ فَسُلِّيَ بِهَذِهِ الْآيَة لِيَطْمَئِنّ "فَيَنْسَخ اللَّه" يُبْطِل "مَا يُلْقِي الشَّيْطَان ثُمَّ يُحْكِم اللَّه آيَاته" يُثَبِّتهَا "وَاَللَّه عَلِيم" بِإِلْقَاءِ الشَّيْطَان مَا ذُكِرَ "حَكِيم" فِي تَمْكِينه مِنْهُ بِفِعْلِ مَا يَشَاء

The Satanic Verses part 2 - YouTube

Muhummad led people to smash their forheads on the ground at satans revelations, that is worshipping satan.


‘Satan MADE him repeat these two phrases: These idols are high and their intercession is expected. The Apostle of Allah repeated them, and he went on reciting the whole surah and then fell in prostration, and the people also fell in prostration with him. Ibn Sa’ad’s Kitab Al-Tabaqat Al-Kabir’.

So that means, for a time, the muslims were going around reciting koran from satan believing the author of those revelations to be from God. That is worshipping satan.

itruth
11-03-2012, 11:53 AM
And not only that, muhummad is recorded as saying that ALL muslims are born with a demon attached, including himself:

(13) Abdullah b. Mas'ud reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: There is none amongst you with whom is not an attache from amongst the jinn (devil). They (the Companions) said: Allah's Messenger, with you too? Thereupon he said: Yes, but Allah helps me against him and so I am safe from his hand and he does not command me but for good. (SAHIH MUSLIM. Book #039, Hadith #6757) http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=jinn&book=&translator=2&search=1&search_word=all&start=10&records_display=10

So muhummad is admitting that he took instructions from devils, but they only COMMANDED him to do good.

ciko
11-03-2012, 02:15 PM
THIS IS IBN KATHIRS OWN WORDS:

"How the Shaytan threw some Falsehood into the Words of the Messengers, and how Allah abolished http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2494&Itemid=77"


Ciko, what does this say:

"(52. Never did We send a Messenger or a Prophet before you but when he did recite (the revelation or narrated or spoke), Shaytan threw (some falsehood) in his recitation (of the revelation)http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2495&Itemid=77#1

So according to the tafsir of ibn kathit satan DID throw things INTO THE REVELATION.

THEN allah abolished WHAT SATAN HAD THOWN IN. If there was nothing thrown iNTO THE REVELATION BY SATAN ALLAH WOULDN'T HAVE HAD TO ABOLISH WHAT SATAN HAD THROWN IN.

READ CAREFULLY:

That He (Allah) may make what is thrown in by Shaytan a trial for those in whose hearts is a disease and whose hearts are hardened.

Al-Bukhari said, "Ibn `Abbas said,

﴿فِى أُمْنِيَّتِهِ﴾

(in his recitation (of the revelation).) "When he spoke, the Shaytan threw (some falsehood) into his speech, but Allah abolished that which the Shaytan threw in.''

ITS RIGHT HERE..Try turning to the next page:

(But Yansakh Allah that which Shaytan throws in.) The meaning of the word Naskh in Arabic is to remove or lift away. `Ali bin Abi Talhah reported that Ibn `Abbas said, "This means, Allah cancels out that which the Shaytan throws in.'' Tafsir IBN KATHIR.http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2494&Itemid=77


TAFSIR IBN KATHIR SURA 22.52:

http://quran.al-islam.com/QuranImageGenerator.aspx?pageid=610&PageNum=338

The muslims who fled to ethiopia got word that muhummad had praised the meccan gods and made their return to mecca on account of the news.

Abu Dawood narrated Division for my father preached from Sa'eed ibn Jubayr said: read the Messenger of Allah peace be upon him in Mecca star when he reached this place, "Have you thought about Lat and Uzza and Manat the other third," he said threw the devil on his tongue:

Check out that authentic islamic site and take what ibn kathir is saying to google translate and you will see that he is recording the satanic verses affair.

THATS IBN KATHIR. http://quran.al-islam.com/Page.aspx?pageid=221&BookID=11&SuraNum=22&AyaNum=52

Now, what say you about al jalalayn?

The Prophet (s) had, during an assembly of the [men of] Quraysh, after reciting the [following verses from] sūrat al-Najm, Have you considered Lāt and ‘Uzzā? And Manāt, the third one? [53:19-20] added, as a result of Satan casting them onto his tongue ‘those are the high-flying cranes and indeed their intercession is to be hoped for’.

Gabriel, however, LATER informed him [the Prophet] of this that Satan had cast onto his tongue and he was grieved by it; but was [subsequently] comforted with this following verse that he might be reassured [of God’s pleasure]: thereat God abrogates, nullifies, whatever Satan had cast. Tafsir al Jalalayn
http://altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=22&tAyahNo=52&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0


TAFSIR AL JALALAYN: Satan threw revelations on the tongue of muhummad http://quran.al-islam.com/Page.aspx?pageid=221&BookID=12&Page=338#22-52

52** وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِنْ قَبْلِكَ مِنْ رَسُولٍ وَلَا نَبِيٍّ إِلَّا إِذَا تَمَنَّى أَلْقَى الشَّيْطَانُ فِي أُمْنِيَّتِهِ فَيَنْسَخُ اللَّهُ مَا يُلْقِي الشَّيْطَانُ ثُمَّ يُحْكِمُ اللَّهُ آيَاتِهِ وَاللَّهُ عَلِيمٌ حَكِيمٌ
"وَمَا أَرْسَلْنَا مِنْ قَبْلك مِنْ رَسُول" هُوَ نَبِيّ أُمِرَ بِالتَّبْلِيغِ "وَلَا نَبِيّ" أَيْ لَمْ يُؤْمَر بِالتَّبْلِيغِ "إلَّا إذَا تَمَنَّى" قَرَأَ "أَلْقَى الشَّيْطَان فِي أَمْنِيَّته" قِرَاءَته مَا لَيْسَ مِنْ الْقُرْآن مِمَّا يَرْضَاهُ الْمُرْسَل إلَيْهِمْ وَقَدْ قَرَأَ النَّبِيّ صَلَّى اللَّه عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ فِي سُورَة النَّجْم بِمَجْلِسٍ مِنْ قُرَيْش بَعْد : "أَفَرَأَيْتُمْ اللَّاتَ وَالْعُزَّى وَمَنَاة الثَّالِثَة الْأُخْرَى" بِإِلْقَاءِ الشَّيْطَان عَلَى لِسَانه مِنْ غَيْر عِلْمه صَلَّى اللَّه عَلَيْهِ وَسَلَّمَ بِهِ : تِلْكَ الْغَرَانِيق الْعُلَا وَإِنَّ شَفَاعَتهنَّ لَتُرْتَجَى فَفَرِحُوا بِذَلِكَ ثُمَّ أَخْبَرَهُ جِبْرِيل بِمَا أَلْقَاهُ الشَّيْطَان عَلَى لِسَانه مِنْ ذَلِكَ فَحَزِنَ فَسُلِّيَ بِهَذِهِ الْآيَة لِيَطْمَئِنّ "فَيَنْسَخ اللَّه" يُبْطِل "مَا يُلْقِي الشَّيْطَان ثُمَّ يُحْكِم اللَّه آيَاته" يُثَبِّتهَا "وَاَللَّه عَلِيم" بِإِلْقَاءِ الشَّيْطَان مَا ذُكِرَ "حَكِيم" فِي تَمْكِينه مِنْهُ بِفِعْلِ مَا يَشَاء

The Satanic Verses part 2 - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keHDtW_JTsg)

Muhummad led people to smash their forheads on the ground at satans revelations, that is worshipping satan.


‘Satan MADE him repeat these two phrases: These idols are high and their intercession is expected. The Apostle of Allah repeated them, and he went on reciting the whole surah and then fell in prostration, and the people also fell in prostration with him. Ibn Sa’ad’s Kitab Al-Tabaqat Al-Kabir’.

So that means, for a time, the muslims were going around reciting koran from satan believing the author of those revelations to be from God. That is worshipping satan.

not true


Ciko, what does this say:

"(52. Never did We send a Messenger or a Prophet before you but when he did recite (the revelation or narrated or spoke), Shaytan threw (some falsehood) in his recitation (of the revelation


THEN allah abolished WHAT SATAN HAD THOWN IN

this is not about quran man, it is about bible, God said in quran that he will protect quran from corruaption and falsehood, look here

God says about quran:

41:42 Falsehood cannot reach it(quran) from before it or behind it – it is a revelation from One who is All-Wise, Praiseworthy.

15:9 Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur'an and indeed We will guard it.

as you can see quran is protected by God, but look this carefully

God says:

Never did We send a Messenger or a Prophet before you but when he did recite (the revelation or narrated or spoke), Shaytan threw (some falsehood) in his recitation (of the revelation...

as you can see "before you"

then look for yourself how satan throws in bible those stuff wich God talks about in quran

EVERYBODY SHOULD LOOK AT THIS AS A PROOF OF QURANIC DIVINE REVELATION

Lord God incited David

2 Samuel 24:1 Again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go, number Israel and Judah.”

vs

Satan incited David

1 Chronicles 21:1 Then Satan stood against Israel and incited David to number Israel.


as you all can witness this quranic verse as a proof from bible, how satan throws his own name instead of Lord.

those biblical verses are evidence for this what God says:

Never did We send a Messenger or a Prophet before you but when he did recite (the revelation or narrated or spoke), Shaytan threw (some falsehood) in his recitation (of the revelation...

ciko
11-03-2012, 02:26 PM
And not only that, muhummad is recorded as saying that ALL muslims are born with a demon attached, including himself:

(13) Abdullah b. Mas'ud reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: There is none amongst you with whom is not an attache from amongst the jinn (devil). They (the Companions) said: Allah's Messenger, with you too? Thereupon he said: Yes, but Allah helps me against him and so I am safe from his hand and he does not command me but for good. (SAHIH MUSLIM. Book #039, Hadith #6757) http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=jinn&book=&translator=2&search=1&search_word=all&start=10&records_display=10

So muhummad is admitting that he took instructions from devils, but they only COMMANDED him to do good.

you have missunderstood this also..


every human being has a Jinn Kareen, who follows a person whole life and wisphering in your mind to do evil stuff,

go drink alcohol, go have sex with different woman, take some drugs, take cigarets, kill, steal, lie, dont pray to God and stuff like that. We know this from islamic belief teaching.

You are saying that Satan Jinns said some verses to muhammed, but look we have answer against that also from God

God says against you in quran:

26:210 It is not the satans who have brought down this (Book).

211. It does neither suit them nor have they the power to produce it.

212. For they are far removed from hearing it.

everything goes against you man, you are hitting a wall whole the time, no matter what you say against quran i have proof against you ;)

ciko
11-03-2012, 02:53 PM
iTruth are you prepared for this :rolleyes:

God says in quran:

34:38 And those who work against Our verses in order to defeat(them), will be brought into the punishment(in hellfire).

you can say i dont believe that, but think also WHAT IF this is true what quran say, how can you then save yourself on the day of judgment.

God says in quran:

26:205 Think, if we let them enjoy this life for some years
206. and the punishment they were promised comes upon them after that,
207. then, of what avail will be their past enjoyments?

think about it....;)

adam 7
11-03-2012, 05:42 PM
The idea of hell is silly. Wouldnt a compassionate God want to save everyone. Why would he save middle eastern folks and send everyone else to torture. Not one of my family or extended family go to church regularly, and i know no muslims except i see in the street. Why do we deserve eternal fire? Wudnt make more sense that this is a man made idea to scare ppl into obedience

luciferhorus
11-03-2012, 06:16 PM
God says in quran:

34:38 And those who work against Our verses in order to defeat(them), will be brought into the punishment(in hellfire).


think about it....;)

http://3.bp.blogspot.com/-oSIyFnEw7FU/Tb9gZFkp4eI/AAAAAAAAAHo/itR6Nk6Rl_Q/s1600/4a2fce85_fe42_09a0.jpg

I would love to go to a place in the afterlife where there are no religious fanatics like you.

picha
11-03-2012, 06:44 PM
This is extremely chilling - I am shivering a bit because of this video

Islam in Norway - New School's founder favors Beheading! - YouTube

itruth
12-03-2012, 12:48 AM
not true

THEN allah abolished WHAT SATAN HAD THOWN IN

this is not about quran man, it is about bible, God said in quran that he will protect quran from corruaption and falsehood, look here

God says about quran:

41:42 Falsehood cannot reach it(quran) from before it or behind it – it is a revelation from One who is All-Wise, Praiseworthy.

15:9 Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur'an and indeed We will guard it.

as you can see quran is protected by God, but look this carefully

God says:

Never did We send a Messenger or a Prophet before you but when he did recite (the revelation or narrated or spoke), Shaytan threw (some falsehood) in his recitation (of the revelation...

as you can see "before you"

then look for yourself how satan throws in bible those stuff wich God talks about in quran

EVERYBODY SHOULD LOOK AT THIS AS A PROOF OF QURANIC DIVINE REVELATION

Lord God incited David

2 Samuel 24:1 Again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go, number Israel and Judah.”

vs

Satan incited David

1 Chronicles 21:1 Then Satan stood against Israel and incited David to number Israel.


as you all can witness this quranic verse as a proof from bible, how satan throws his own name instead of Lord.

those biblical verses are evidence for this what God says:

Never did We send a Messenger or a Prophet before you but when he did recite (the revelation or narrated or spoke), Shaytan threw (some falsehood) in his recitation (of the revelation...


THEN allah abolished WHAT SATAN HAD THOWN IN

“THEN allah abolished WHAT SATAN HAD THOWN IN” = AFTER THE EVENT HAD HAPPENED.

This is why my original question was ‘HOW LONG WERE THE Muslims RECITING SATANS KORAN BEFORE ALLAH ABOLISHED IT?’

denying that these events took place goes against ALL THE EVIDENCE, including koranic evidence.


this is not about quran man, it is about bible, God said in quran that he will protect quran from corruaption and falsehood,


LOOK ---> Al-Baghawi and the majority of the scholars of Tafsir said: (he did recite) "Reciting the Book of Allah.'' http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2494&Itemid=77


THIS ABOUT MUHUMMAD QUOTING SATAN AND PEOPLE BOWING TO IT. THIS IS WHAT BOTH IBN KATHIR AND AL JALALAYN AMONGST OTHERS ARE CLEARLY SAYING. NONE OF THEM SAY THIS IS TALKING ABOUT THE BIBLE.

As you will see, the people like ibn abbas are clearly talking about something in their own life times.

THERE IS NOTHING TO SUGGEST THAT THIS IS ABOUT ANYONE OTHER THAN MUHUMMAD.

WHEN PEOPLE LIKE IBN ABBAS AND THER OTHERS SAY “WHEN HE SPOKE” THEY ARE TALIKNG ABOUT MUHUMMAD, FACT!

If you say that it not, which is a totally baseless claim, all you would be doing is providing ANOTHER KORAN CONTRIDICTION, because you say this is about other people WHO ARE NOT EVEN MENTIONED, yet ibn Kathir, ibn abbas, ibn saad, ibn ishaq among others ALL SAY THAT THIS IS ABOUT SATAN THROWING THINGS ONTO MUHUMMADS MOUTH. If you would have people believe otherwise in a desperate attempt to defend muhummad, you would only be telling us that the Koran is not clear as allah claims, and that would be a contradiction because the Koran claims itself to be a clear book, right?

WHO IS THE “HE” THAT THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT?

TAFSIR IBN KATHIR:
Al-Bukhari said, "Ibn `Abbas said,
﴿فِى أُمْنِيَّتِهِ﴾
(in his recitation (of the revelation).) "When he spoke, the Shaytan threw (some falsehood) into his speech, but Allah abolished that which the Shaytan threw in.''
﴿ثُمَّ يُحْكِمُ اللَّهُ ءَايَـتِهِ﴾
(Then Allah establishes His revelations.) `Ali bin Abi Talhah reported that Ibn `Abbas said,
﴿إِذَا تَمَنَّى أَلْقَى الشَّيْطَـنُ فِى أُمْنِيَّتِهِ﴾
(when he did recite (the revelation), Shaytan threw (some falsehood) in it) "When he spoke, the Shaytan threw (some falsehood) into his speech.'' Mujahid said:
﴿إِذَا تُمْنَى﴾
(when he did recite) "When he spoke.'' It was said that it refers to his recitation, whereas,
﴿إِلاَّ أَمَانِىَّ﴾
(but they trust upon Amani) means they speak but they do not write.

Al-Baghawi and the majority of the scholars of Tafsir said:
﴿تَمَنَّى﴾
(he did recite) "Reciting the Book of Allah.''
﴿أَلْقَى الشَّيْطَـنُ فِى أُمْنِيَّتِهِ﴾

(Shaytan threw (some falsehood) in it) "In his recitation.'' Ad-Dahhak said:
﴿إِذَا تُمْنَى﴾
(when he did recite) "When he recited.'' Ibn Jarir said, "This comment is more akin to interpretation.''
﴿فَيَنسَخُ اللَّهُ مَا يُلْقِى الشَّيْطَـنُ﴾
(But Yansakh Allah that which Shaytan throws in.) The meaning of the word Naskh in Arabic is to remove or lift away. `Ali bin Abi Talhah reported that Ibn `Abbas said, "This means, Allah cancels out that which the Shaytan throws in.'

SO SATAN DID THROW THINGS INTO MUHUMAMDS REVELATION AND THEN (AFTER THE FACT) ALLAH CANCELLED OUT WHAT SATAN HAD THROWN IN. ALLAH WOULDN'T HAVE TO CANCEL OUT OR ABOLISH SOMETHING THAT NEVER EXISTED.

When laws are abolished MEANS THEY WERE ONCE IN EFFECT, LIKE SATANS KORAN MUHUMMAD WAS RECITING.


God says about quran:

41:42 Falsehood cannot reach it(quran) from before it or behind it – it is a revelation from One who is All-Wise, Praiseworthy.

15:9 Indeed, it is We who sent down the Qur'an and indeed We will guard it.

as you can see quran is protected by God

The Koran here is NOT DENYING THAT SATAN THREW HIS OWN REVELATIONS INTO THE KORAN.

The Koran has already said what satan throws in allah abolishes it. SO THE KORAN ADMITS THAT IT WAS IN THE RECITAL ONCE, BUT
ALLAH ABOLISHED IT AND THIS IS WHAT IS MEANT BY ALLAH GUARDS KORAN.

God says:

Never did We send a Messenger or a Prophet before you but when he did recite (the revelation or narrated or spoke), Shaytan threw (some falsehood) in his recitation (of the revelation...

as you can see "before you"


CLEARLY, this is your god allah COMFORTING MUHUMMAD AFTER HE RECITED SATANS KORAN.

Actually, you made me think of a good thread to open, one which shows that from 100% islamic sources allah was at the beck and call of muhummad. But I will do that later.

Allah made muhummad feel better about himself by claiming THAT SATAN HAD THROWN INTO THE RECITATIONS OF THE OTHER MESSENGERS OF ALLAH, ROFL.

Its very clear, why would allah have to say “BEFORE YOU” TO MUHUMMAD? THIS MEANS THAT MUHUMMAD HIMSELF HAD DONE THE SAME THING THAT ALLAH CLAIMS ALL THE MESSENGERS OF ALLAH DID.

What else would be the purpose of the verse?

IBN KATHIR, AL JALALAYN, IBN SA’AD, AL TABARI, IBN ISHAQ AND THE REST ALL KNEW THAT THIS VERSE IS ABOUT MUHUMMAD.

then look for yourself how satan throws in bible those stuff wich God talks about in quran..

FALSE!

What you are going to post is talking about david NUMBERING A PEOPLE, IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH “THROWING INTO A REVELATION FROM GOD.

FIRST, let me post what the Koran verse and then look at the story YOU SAY THE KORAN IS TALKING ABOUT:

Never sent We a messenger or a prophet before thee but when He recited (the message) Satan proposed (opposition) in respect of that which he recited thereof. But Allah abolisheth that which Satan proposeth. Then Allah establisheth His revelations. Allah is Knower, Wise; Surah 22:52

BELOW IS YOUR PATHETIC ATTEMPT AT TRYING TO MAKE IT APPEAR AS IF THE VERSE FROM THE KORAN IS TALKING ABOUT THE BIBLE:

EVERYBODY SHOULD LOOK AT THIS AS A PROOF OF QURANIC DIVINE REVELATION

Lord God incited David

2 Samuel 24:1 Again the anger of the LORD was kindled against Israel, and he incited David against them, saying, “Go, number Israel and Judah.”

vs

Satan incited David

1 Chronicles 21:1 Then Satan stood against Israel and incited David to number Israel.

WHERE DOES IT SAY ANYTHING ABOUT “RECITING, OR REVELATION” TO/FROM DAVID?

REMEMBER, we are talking about muhummad receiving KORAN from satan, The biblical God moving against david inciting david to COUNT PEOPLE, HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH A PERSON RECEIVING REVELATIONS FROM A GOD THAT PEOPLE ARE SUPPOSED TO BOW TO.

DID/WAS ANYONE SUPPOSE TO BOW AND VENERATE AS A DIVINE REVELATION WHEN DAVID SAID TO COUNT THE PEOPLE? DID ANYONE SAY OR CLAIM IT WAS A REVELATION FROM GOD?

WHAT MUHUMMAD GOT FROM SATAN THE PEOPLE, INCLUDING THE PAGANS PROSTRATED TO IT BELIEVING IT TO BE A REVELATION FROM ALLAH.

AND IT WAS ONLY LATER AT SOME OTHER UNSPECIFIED TIME ALLAH SENT GABRIEL TO INFORM MUHUMMAD WHAT HE HAD DONE AND TO GIVE HIM A VERSE THAT EXPLAINS THAT ALLAH “ABOLISHES” WHAT SATAN THROWS IN, FACT!

NOW, as YOU CLAIM Surah 22:52 is talking about “ALL THE MESSENGERS OF ALLAH”, YOU WOULD NOW HAVE TO SHOW US ANY PROPHET FROM THE BIBLE WHO RECEIVED REVELATIONS FROM SATAN BELIEVING IT TO BE FROM GOD, BECAUSE THE KORAN SAYS “NEVER DID WE SEND A MESSENGER WHO SATAN DID NOT THROW THINGS INTO THE RECITATION”.

The account you gave of david HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH RECEIVING REVELATIONS FROM SATAN BUT BELIEVING IT TO BE FROM GOD.

DID DAVID SAY THAT GOD HAD OREDERED HIM TO COUNT THE PEOPLE? IF HE DIDN'T, YOUR WHOLE CLAIM CRASHES.

What muhummad received from satan he, the pagans, the Muslims all bowed to it AS REVELATION FROM ALLAH.

HERE IS ANOTHER TAFSIR (EXPANATION OF SURA 22.52:

Asbab Al-Nuzul by Al-Wahidi

Asbāb al-nuzūl (أسباب النزول), an Arabic term meaning "occasions/circumstances of revelation", is a secondary genre of Qur'anic exegesis (tafsir) directed at establishing the context in which specific verses of the Qur'an were revealed. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asbab_al-nuzul

(Never sent We a messenger or a prophet before thee…) [22:52]. The commentators of the Qur'an said: “When the Messenger of Allah, Allah bless him and give him peace, saw that his people were shunning him, he was aggrieved by their rejection of the message he brought them and he secretly wished that Allah, exalted is He, reveals something to him which would bring him and his people closer to each other, keen as he was to see them accept faith. One day, he sat in one of the congregations of Quraysh which attracted a huge number of its members, and he wished that Allah, exalted is He, does not reveal to him on that day anything that might repel them from him. Allah, exalted is He, revealed to him then Surah al-Najm (By the star when it stetteth…) [Surah 53]. The Messenger of Allah, Allah bless him and give him peace, recited it but when he reached (Have ye thought upon al-Lat and al-'Uzza, and Manat, the third, the other) [53:19-20], the devil put on his tongue what he had secretly wished and hoped for and said: 'These are the mighty cranes (gharaniq) and their intercession is hoped for'. When the Quraysh heard this, they were very pleased. The Messenger of Allah, Allah bless him and give him peace, carried on reciting until the end of the Surah and then prostrated. All the Muslims followed suit and prostrated, and all the idolaters who were present prostrated too. All those who were present, whether Muslim or disbeliever, prostrated except al-Walid ibn al-Mughirah and Abu Uhyahah Sa'id ibn al-'As who were too advanced in age and could not prostrate, but they both grabbed a handful of dust and put their foreheads on it. The Quraysh then dispersed, happy with what they heard. They said: 'Muhammad has mentioned our idols with complimentary terms. We know that Allah gives life and takes it away, He creates and provides sustenance, but these idols of ours will intercede for us with Him. Now that Muhammad has associated them, we are all with him'.

That evening, Gabriel, peace be upon him, went to the Messenger of Allah, Allah bless him and give him peace, and said: 'What have you done? You recited to people that which I did not bring from Allah, glorified is He, and you said what I did not say to you'. Sura 22.52. Asbab Al-Nuzul by Al-Wahidi. http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=86&tSoraNo=22&tAyahNo=52&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2

itruth
12-03-2012, 01:06 AM
And not only that, the Koran says that if muhummad made up anything concerning the revelations allah would have killed him painfully;


Qur’an 69:44-46—And if he (Muhammad) had forged a false saying concerning Us We surely should have seized him by his right hand (or with power and might), and then certainly should have cut off his life artery (Aorta). (Hilali-Khan) http://www.answeringmuslims.com/2011/10/who-killed-muhammad.html

Now in your simplistic mind you may automatically think/assume that that verse alone is enough to confirm that muhummad never made up anything about Koran, but that is just an assumption, because the verse is NOT saying that muhummad wouldn’t do such a thing, the verse is saying what WOULD happen if muhummad did invent things.

The hadiths below records muhummad himself describing the pain he was in before he died:

SAHIH BUKARI:
"O 'Aisha! I still feel the pain caused by the food I ate at Khaibar, and at this time, I feel as if my aorta is being cut from that poison." (Book #59, Hadith #713) http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=aorta&translator=1&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=exact


ABU DAWUD:

he Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) then ordered regarding her and she was killed. He then said about the pain of which he died: I continued to feel pain from the morsel which I had eaten at Khaybar. This is the time when it has cut off my aorta. (Book #39, Hadith #4498) http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=aorta&translator=3&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=exact

ABU DAWUD:

(2) Narrated Umm Mubashshir: Umm Mubashshir said to the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) during the sickness of which he died: What do you think about your illness, Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him)? I do not think about the illness of my son except the poisoned sheep of which he had eaten with you at Khaybar. The Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) said: And I do not think about my illness except that. This is the time when it cut off my aorta. Abu dawud, (Book #39, Hadith #4499) http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=aorta&translator=3&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=exact


Sunan Ibn Majah 1622—Aishah said: “I never saw anyone suffer more pain than the Messenger of Allah.”


So the hadith are showing us exactly what muhummad went through and how muhummad felt before he died.

If you put the Koran and hadith together it shows/suggest/implies that muhummad did make things up and allah cut his aorta.







(RECOMMENDED VIDEO. A TOTALLY DEVESTATING REFUTATION OF ISLAM)

Who Killed Muhammad? http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=6st_tFj6ouM

itruth
12-03-2012, 01:42 AM
you have missunderstood this also..


every human being has a Jinn Kareen, who follows a person whole life and wisphering in your mind to do evil stuff,

go drink alcohol, go have sex with different woman, take some drugs, take cigarets, kill, steal, lie, dont pray to God and stuff like that. We know this from islamic belief teaching.

You are saying that Satan Jinns said some verses to muhammed, but look we have answer against that also from God

God says against you in quran:

26:210 It is not the satans who have brought down this (Book).

211. It does neither suit them nor have they the power to produce it.

212. For they are far removed from hearing it.

everything goes against you man, you are hitting a wall whole the time, no matter what you say against quran i have proof against you ;)

every human being has a Jinn Kareen, who follows a person whole life and wisphering in your mind to do evil stuff,

wow!, so you admit that you have demon that you were born attached too and that this demon whispa's to you.

Sorry, I don't have demons attached to me, nor do I take instructions from demons like muhummad did.

When I do wrong it not because i am taking instructions from demons like you say muslims are. I take responsibility for my actions and thoughts, and this is why we can trample over you god and your satan, because both are powerless to us. So this means that when you are driving and you start to speed, it means, in the islamic mind, that satan suggested it and the muslim obeyed, the fact that you are running late because of your own mismanagement of your time is not relevant as to the real motivers for speeding in the islamic mind, because you have the perfect fall guy in the islamic shaytan who can take the fall and the blame for your own internal error. So not only was allah a puppet for muhummad, satan is also a puppet for muslims too.

Muhummads demon used to command him to do good, wow.


Madmans cult.


You are saying that Satan Jinns said some verses to muhammed, but look we have answer against that also from God

NO CIKO. DON'T LIE AND TWIST THINGS, IT IS IBN KATHIR, AL JALALAYN AMONG OTHERS WHO TEACH THAT SATAN GAVE MUHUMMAD REVELATIONS. Thats not my account, these accounts GO BACK TO THE EARLESTS RECORDS OF YOUR PROPHET MUHUMMAD AS RECORDED BY MUSLIMS AND TAUGHT TO MUSLIMS BY MUSLIMS. THEY ARE SAYING THAT MUHUMMAD GOT REVELATIONS FROM SATAN, I AM ONLY GOING ALONG WITH THEM ON THIS POINT OF THEIR ACCOUNT.

God says against you in quran:

26:210 It is not the satans who have brought down this (Book).

211. It does neither suit them nor have they the power to produce it.

212. For they are far removed from hearing it.

Think about it, why is allah/muhummad saying that the koran is not from satan? Its because people must have been saying that koran is from satan, and the islamic scholars themselves say that muhummad recieved revelations from satan.

JINN (DEVILS) ENDORSED KORAN:

sura 72.1:
Say: It has been revealed to me that a party of the jinn listened, and they said: Surely we have heard a wonderful Quran, Shakir.

SATAN IS ALSO A JINN:

And (remember) when We said to the angels; "Prostrate to Adam." So they prostrated except Iblis (Satan). He was one of the jinns; he disobeyed the Command of his Lord. S. 18:50

So satans actually endorsed allahs koran.

madgoone
12-03-2012, 06:52 AM
psycho oops i meant ciko thats 65 pages of Lo-oser now, thank god you joined islam or you would have never have had the company of a woman(most likely a dumbed down muslim woman:D).

ciko
12-03-2012, 07:28 AM
The idea of hell is silly. Wouldnt a compassionate God want to save everyone. Why would he save middle eastern folks and send everyone else to torture. Not one of my family or extended family go to church regularly, and i know no muslims except i see in the street. Why do we deserve eternal fire? Wudnt make more sense that this is a man made idea to scare ppl into obedience

the answer is here

If Allah Is Merciful,then Why Create Hell?! - Dr Zakir Naik 21/24 - YouTube

adam 7
12-03-2012, 08:52 AM
Hi Ciko, I am at work so am unable to watch the youtube video. Are you able to explain briefly why God would permit the majority of people to eternal torture? Doesn't this, to you, make God seem like a monster with no empathy and feelings?

ciko
12-03-2012, 10:40 AM
Hi Ciko, I am at work so am unable to watch the youtube video. Are you able to explain briefly why God would permit the majority of people to eternal torture? Doesn't this, to you, make God seem like a monster with no empathy and feelings?

Wouldnt a compassionate God want to save everyone.

imagine God saves Hitler on the day of judgement, and put him in paradise...how would victims of holocast feel about this God.

would this God be a just God,if he would put Hitler in paradise?


Are you able to explain briefly why God would permit the majority of people to eternal torture?

beacuse poeple choose to go to hell by themselves, God want them to go to paradise to be with him, and enjoy paradise, but people dont want that.

People like to mock God, they dont want to listen to God, God tells them , come to me to be saved, people answeer, no, we dont want that, you are an evil spirit, idiot, maniac, or something liek that. So how can God help thsoe people when they dont want to be saved.

look what muhammed said about that:

Muhamemd (saws) says in a hadith found in Muslim, “The analogy of me and you is like someone sitting in the bonfire in the wilderness and insects and bugs are trying to fly into it.4 While I am holding your clothes, dragging
you away from the fire, you are rushing into the fire without thinking about it.”

This is how Muhamemd (saws) viewed his mission; he (saws) was taking the drastic measure of trying to drag the people away from danger even though they wanted to jump right into it without any second thoughts.


God warns humankind in quran:

39:55 Follow the best that has been sent down to you from your Lord before the punishment comes upon you suddenly when you are not expecting it;

39:56 Lest a soul will Say: "How sorry I am for disregarding God's path; and I was certainly one of those who mocked."


Narrated Abu Musa Al-Ashari: The Prophet Muhammed said, "None is more patient than Allah against the harmful and annoying words He hears (from the people): They ascribe children to Him, yet He bestows upon them health and provision."


The Mercy of Allah in Regard to Forgiveness

Allah says to humankind about his forgivness:

"O son of Adam, as long as you call upon Me and put your hope in Me, I have forgiven you for what you have done and I do not mind. O son of Adam, if your sins were to reach the clouds of the sky and then you would seek My forgiveness, I would forgive you. O son of Adam, if you were to come to Me with sins that are close to filling the earth and then you would meet Me without ascribing any partners with Me, I would certainly bring to you forgiveness close to filling it."

In this Hadithi Qudsi, Allah gives hope to mankind more than any other narration. It displays the quality and attribute of Allahs mercy. Indeed, He is ar-Rahman, the Most Compassionate, and ar-Raheem, the Most Merciful. In this Hadithi Qudsi, Allah tells man of the greatness of His forgiveness and mercy so that no one would despair due to the amount of sins he may have committed. This is supported by the following verse of the Holy Quran:

[B]Say: O My servants who have transgressed against their own souls, despair not of the mercy of Allah. Indeed, Allah forgives all sins. Truly, He is Most Forgiving, Most Merciful. (Surah az-Zumar 39:53)

This hadith teaches us the importance of realizing Allahs mercy, having faith and hope in Him especially when making dua, calling to Allah alone for forgiveness, and the importance of repentance in the life and faith of a believer.


Doesn't this, to you, make God seem like a monster with no empathy and feelings

this is God you call monster

Allah says to humankind about his forgivness:

"O son of Adam, as long as you call upon Me and put your hope in Me, I have forgiven you for what you have done and I do not mind. O son of Adam, if your sins were to reach the clouds of the sky and then you would seek My forgiveness, I would forgive you. O son of Adam, if you were to come to Me with sins that are close to filling the earth and then you would meet Me without ascribing any partners with Me, I would certainly bring to you forgiveness close to filling it."

exu156
12-03-2012, 10:58 AM
beacuse poeple choose to go to hell by themselves, God want them to go to paradise to be with him, and enjoy paradise, but people dont want that.


But why would God (the creator of all things) allow hell to be within his creation? He has the power to abolish hell and by revealing himself today can set men on the right path in an instant. Why does he choose not to?

This is not a sarcastic question by the way. I am not picking on you. It is something I would genuinely like to know, from an Islamic perspective.

selig
12-03-2012, 11:16 AM
But why would God (the creator of all things) allow hell to be within his creation? He has the power to abolish hell and by revealing himself today can set men on the right path in an instant. Why does he choose not to?

This is not a sarcastic question by the way. I am not picking on you. It is something I would genuinely like to know, from an Islamic perspective.

It seems a bit strange to me that an all powerful, all knowing creator god would go to the trouble of creating a universe for no other reason than to test people (his own creation) to see if they're worthy of spending an eternity with him.

I mean if he/she/it is so clever and powerful why wouldn't it just create the perfect companions from the word go and do away with the needless steps of creating universes, condemning people to eternal hell fire etc. etc.?

It just doesn't seem a very efficient way of doing things to me.

It's good to see, after a few days away, that the lunacy of this thread is still in full flow too.:D

exu156
12-03-2012, 11:20 AM
It seems a bit strange to me that an all powerful, all knowing creator god would go to the trouble of creating a universe for no other reason than to test people (his own creation) to see if they're worthy of spending an eternity with him.

I mean if he/she/it is so clever and powerful why wouldn't it just create the perfect companions from the word go and do away with the needless steps of creating universes, condemning people to eternal hell fire etc. etc.?

It just doesn't seem a very efficient way of doing things to me.

It's good to see, after a few days away, that the lunacy of this thread is still in full flow too.:D

Well exactly. It also seems very strange that he made his existence evident to a desert dweller surrounded by a multitude of illiterate people but has failed to do so in our modern era of mass-media accessibility. It seems paradoxical to have chosen a time to reveal himself when people were not educationally prepared. Almost seems like a teaser.

ciko
12-03-2012, 11:23 AM
But why would God (the creator of all things) allow hell to be within his creation? He has the power to abolish hell and by revealing himself today can set men on the right path in an instant. Why does he choose not to?

This is not a sarcastic question by the way. I am not picking on you. It is something I would genuinely like to know, from an Islamic perspective.

good question and i shall explain it to you all ,so you understand ;)


But why would God (the creator of all things) allow hell to be within his creation?

first we have to understand why God crated us or why we are here on earth.

God answers in quran:

67:2 He(God) who created death and life to test which of you is best in action. He is the Almighty, the Ever-Forgiving.

7:168 And We divided them throughout the earth into nations. Of them some were righteous, and of them some were otherwise. And We tested them with good [times] and bad that perhaps they would return [to obedience].

so this life is a test, and after test tehre is Judgment day, where we shall see our deeds, and then rewared or punished.

NO, we ask ourselves WHY would God (the creator of all things) allow hell to be within his creation?

Hell is a tool for punishment who deserves that, but now we ask ourselves, why God make us all believers and good people , and then we go to Paradise and there is no hell.

If good forced us in his relgion then it would not be a test anymore, there would not be free will to choose wich path we should take.
Imagine i say to you all, you all have to go this way or i shall kill you all, ,where is test here, then, if you can not choose wich path you shall take.

So paradise and hell exists as a tools of reward or punishment after this test on earth. God created free will to choose, now it is up to us wich way we shall take....

God says this also in quran:

Know that Allah is severe in punishment and that Allah is Forgiving and Merciful. (Surat al-Maaidah 5:98)

sever in punishment of wrongdoers, and forgiving those who ask him for forgivness.


He has the power to abolish hell and by revealing himself today can set men on the right path in an instant. Why does he choose not to?

God answers to your question in quran:

5:48 If God had so willed, He would have made you one community, but He wanted to test you through that which He has given you, so race to do good: you will all return to God and He will make clear to you the matters you differed about.

adam 7
12-03-2012, 11:26 AM
imagine God saves Hitler on the day of judgement, and put him in paradise...how would victims of holocast feel about this God.
would this God be a just God,if he would put Hitler in paradise?

Why would God NEED to punish anyone, even Hitler, eternally. This sounds very unfair. It makes God out to be the "Hitler".

Doesnt it make much more sense, that this whole concept of hell is simply invented to scare people. ;)

ciko
12-03-2012, 11:29 AM
It seems a bit strange to me that an all powerful, all knowing creator god would go to the trouble of creating a universe for no other reason than to test people (his own creation) to see if they're worthy of spending an eternity with him.

I mean if he/she/it is so clever and powerful why wouldn't it just create the perfect companions from the word go and do away with the needless steps of creating universes, condemning people to eternal hell fire etc. etc.?

It just doesn't seem a very efficient way of doing things to me.

It's good to see, after a few days away, that the lunacy of this thread is still in full flow too.:D


It seems a bit strange to me that an all powerful, all knowing creator god would go to the trouble of creating a universe for no other reason than to test people (his own creation) to see if they're worthy of spending an eternity with him.

God says in quran:

21:16 We have not created the heavens and the earth and all that is between them as a play and game for Us.

17. Had We wanted to play games, We could have found it in Our Presence, if such had been Our Will at all!

adam 7
12-03-2012, 11:30 AM
God answers to your question in quran:5:48 If God had so willed, He would have made you one community, but He wanted to test you through that which He has given you, so race to do good: you will all return to God and He will make clear to you the matters you differed about.

I notice you keep on saying "God in the Quran says" X.

But I note from the Quran God is talked about in the third person. God has done this. He will do that. It is clearly a person (Muhammed?) writing about God.

The quran is simply words about God. Fine and poetic words :) granted.

Its not the word of God, but words about God.

ciko
12-03-2012, 11:32 AM
Why would God NEED to punish anyone, even Hitler, eternally. This sounds very unfair. It makes God out to be the "Hitler".

Doesnt it make much more sense, that this whole concept of hell is simply invented to scare people. ;)


if you have read islamic belief teching you would understand it


Why would God NEED to punish anyone, even Hitler, eternally. This sounds very unfair. It makes God out to be the "Hitler".

punishing eternally, can be that after some time of punishment in hell, that he dies in hell, then stay dead forever there without feeling any pain anymore. Beacuse he does not deserve to go to paradise.

So eternal punishment can be that, he dies after some time, and does not feel anything anymore and stay dead forever, while other go to paradise and enjoy life.

selig
12-03-2012, 11:39 AM
God says in quran:

21:16 We have not created the heavens and the earth and all that is between them as a play and game for Us.

17. Had We wanted to play games, We could have found it in Our Presence, if such had been Our Will at all!

I never said it was a game, just that it was a pointless and extremely inefficient thing for an all powerful, all knowing God to do.

Which it is.

I love the way that you think that posting quotes from the quran that have nothing to do with what was originally said is a valid response btw.:D

ciko
12-03-2012, 11:41 AM
I notice you keep on saying "God in the Quran says" X.

But I note from the Quran God is talked about in the third person. God has done this. He will do that. It is clearly a person (Muhammed?) writing about God.

The quran is simply words about God. Fine and poetic words :) granted.

Its not the word of God, but words about God.

He sometimes choose to talk about in third person, like i talk in third person, when i say

Ciko is like this and like that.....it is just he choses to talk about himself in third person.



It is clearly a person (Muhammed?) writing about God.


why did not muhammed wrote anything about his wives, his daughters, his mother, but he chosed to name whole chapter by woman from another nation, Mary, mother of jesus.

Why muhammed abuse himself, like this


80:1. (The Prophet Muhammed) frowned and turned away,
2. Because there came to him the blind man (interrupting).
3. But what could tell thee but that perchance he might grow (in spiritual understanding)?-
4. Or that he might receive admonition, and the teaching might profit him?
5. As to one who regards Himself as self-sufficient,
6. To him dost thou attend;
7. Though it is no blame to thee if he grow not (in spiritual understanding).
8. But as to him who came to thee striving earnestly,
9. And with fear (in his heart),
10. Of him wast thou unmindful.
11. By no means (should it be so)! For it is indeed a Message of instruction:


not only that, why should muhammed threten himself by death if he change something from quran

God says:

69:44 if [the Prophet Muhammed] had attributed some fabrication to Us,
45. We would have seized him by his right hand,
46. Then cut off his aorta
47. and none of you(his friends) could have defended him.
48. This Qur’an is a message for those who want to stay on the right path.

CAN YOU IMAGINE MUHAMMED WRITING THIS ABOUT HIMSELF, WHERE HE THRETENS HIMSELF, I DONT THINK SO ;)

selig
12-03-2012, 11:46 AM
God says in quran:

21:16 We have not created the heavens and the earth and all that is between them as a play and game for Us.

And who is the we that God is (allegedly) talking about here? Could he not finish the universe on his own so he had to use contractors?:D

exu156
12-03-2012, 11:48 AM
God answers to your question in quran:

5:48 If God had so willed, He would have made you one community, but He wanted to test you through that which He has given you, so race to do good: you will all return to God and He will make clear to you the matters you differed about.

But the test is not fair because the flesh is so weak. The punishment for failing this test is also incredibly severe. The ego, the sex drive, these are strong physical things, they are to a great extent necessary for us to operate in the world. Why make the punishment for failing this test (which involves some things which are part of our nature) so severe?

Would it not be more loving that ok, fine, you fail the test then you have to reincarnate somewhere until you get it right? Why the cruelty of hell? It does not equate with a God of love. Your opinion?

ciko
12-03-2012, 11:53 AM
And who is the we that God is (allegedly) talking about here? Could he not finish the universe on his own so he had to use contractors?:D


Question :

Why does the Quran use the term "we" in its ayats?

Many non-believers believe that this may be in reference to Jesus?

Answer :

Praise be to Allaah.

It is a feature of literary style in Arabic that a person may refer to himself by the pronoun nahnu (we) for respect or glorification. He may also use the word ana (I), indicating one person, or the third person huwa (he). All three styles are used in the Qur’an, where Allaah addresses the Arabs in their own tongue. (Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah, 4/143).

“Allaah, may He be glorified and exalted, sometimes refers to Himself in the singular, by name or by use of a pronoun, and sometimes by use of the plural, as in the phrase (interpretation of the meaning): ‘Verily, We have given you a manifest victory” [al-Fath 48:1], and other similar phrases. But Allaah never refers to Himself by use of the dual, because the plural refers to the respect that He deserves, and may refer to His names and attributes, whereas the dual refers to a specific number (and nothing else), and He is far above that.” (Al-‘Aqeedah al-Tadmuriyyah by Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah, p. 75).

These words, innaa (“Verily We”) and nahnu (“We”), and other forms of the plural, may be used by one person speaking on behalf of a group, or they may be used by one person for purposes of respect or glorification, as is done by some monarchs when they issue statements or decrees in which they say “We have decided…” etc. [This is known in English as “The Royal We” – Translator]. In such cases, only one person is speaking but the plural is used for respect. The One Who is more deserving of respect than any other is Allaah, may He be glorified and exalted, so when He says in the Qur’an innaa (“Verily We”) and nahnu (“We”), it is for respect and glorification, not to indicate plurality of numbers. If an aayah of this type is causing confusion, it is essential to refer to the clear, unambiguous aayaat for clarification, and if a Christian, for example, insists on taking ayaat such as “Verily, We: it is We Who have sent down the Dhikr (i.e., the Qur’an)” [al-Hijr 15:9 – interpretation of the meaning] as proof of divine plurality, we may refute this claim by quoting such clear and unambiguous aayaat as (interpretation of the meanings): “And your god is One God, there is none who has the right to be worshipped but He, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful” [al-Baqarah 2:163] and “Say: He is Allaah, the One” [al-Ikhlaas 112:1] – and other aayaat which can only be interpreted in one way. Thus confusion will be dispelled for the one who is seeking the truth. Every time Allaah uses the plural to refer to Himself, it is based on the respect and honour that He deserves, and on the great number of His names and attributes, and on the great number of His troops and angels.” (Reference: Al-‘Aqeedah al-Tadmuriyyah by Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah, p. 109). And Allaah knows best.

Islam Q&A

Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid (www.islam-qa.com)

ciko
12-03-2012, 11:57 AM
But the test is not fair because the flesh is so weak. The punishment for failing this test is also incredibly severe. The ego, the sex drive, these are strong physical things, they are to a great extent necessary for us to operate in the world. Why make the punishment for failing this test (which involves some things which are part of our nature) so severe?

Would it not be more loving that ok, fine, you fail the test then you have to reincarnate somewhere until you get it right? Why the cruelty of hell? It does not equate with a God of love. Your opinion?

let muhammed say something about that


On the authority of Abu Hurayrah (may Allah be pleased with him), who said that the Messenger of Allah (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said:

"When Allah created Paradise and Hell-fire, He sent Gabriel to Paradise, saying: ‘Look at it and at what I have prepared therein for its inhabitants.’" The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: "So he came to it and looked at it and at what Allah had prepared therein for its inhabitants." The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: "So he returned to Him and said: ‘By your glory, no one hears of it without entering it.’ So He ordered that it be encompassed by forms of hardship, and He said: ‘Return to it and look at what I have prepared therein for its inhabitants.’" The Prophet (peace and blessings of Allah be upon him) said: "So he returned to it and found that it was encompassed by forms of hardship (1). Then he returned to Him and said: ‘By Your glory, I fear that no one will enter it.’ He said: ‘Go to Hell-fire and look at it and what I have prepared therein for its inhabitants;’ and he found that it was in layers, one above the other. Then he returned to Him and said: ‘By Your glory, no one who hears of it will enter it.’ So He ordered that it be encompassed by lusts. Then He said: ‘Return to it.’ And he returned to it and said: ‘By Your glory, I am frightened that no one will escape from entering it.’

selig
12-03-2012, 12:01 PM
Question :

Why does the Quran use the term "we" in its ayats?

Many non-believers believe that this may be in reference to Jesus?

Answer :

Praise be to Allaah.

It is a feature of literary style in Arabic that a person may refer to himself by the pronoun nahnu (we) for respect or glorification. He may also use the word ana (I), indicating one person, or the third person huwa (he). All three styles are used in the Qur’an, where Allaah addresses the Arabs in their own tongue. (Fataawa al-Lajnah al-Daa’imah, 4/143).

“Allaah, may He be glorified and exalted, sometimes refers to Himself in the singular, by name or by use of a pronoun, and sometimes by use of the plural, as in the phrase (interpretation of the meaning): ‘Verily, We have given you a manifest victory” [al-Fath 48:1], and other similar phrases. But Allaah never refers to Himself by use of the dual, because the plural refers to the respect that He deserves, and may refer to His names and attributes, whereas the dual refers to a specific number (and nothing else), and He is far above that.” (Al-‘Aqeedah al-Tadmuriyyah by Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah, p. 75).

These words, innaa (“Verily We”) and nahnu (“We”), and other forms of the plural, may be used by one person speaking on behalf of a group, or they may be used by one person for purposes of respect or glorification, as is done by some monarchs when they issue statements or decrees in which they say “We have decided…” etc. [This is known in English as “The Royal We” – Translator]. In such cases, only one person is speaking but the plural is used for respect. The One Who is more deserving of respect than any other is Allaah, may He be glorified and exalted, so when He says in the Qur’an innaa (“Verily We”) and nahnu (“We”), it is for respect and glorification, not to indicate plurality of numbers. If an aayah of this type is causing confusion, it is essential to refer to the clear, unambiguous aayaat for clarification, and if a Christian, for example, insists on taking ayaat such as “Verily, We: it is We Who have sent down the Dhikr (i.e., the Qur’an)” [al-Hijr 15:9 – interpretation of the meaning] as proof of divine plurality, we may refute this claim by quoting such clear and unambiguous aayaat as (interpretation of the meanings): “And your god is One God, there is none who has the right to be worshipped but He, the Most Beneficent, the Most Merciful” [al-Baqarah 2:163] and “Say: He is Allaah, the One” [al-Ikhlaas 112:1] – and other aayaat which can only be interpreted in one way. Thus confusion will be dispelled for the one who is seeking the truth. Every time Allaah uses the plural to refer to Himself, it is based on the respect and honour that He deserves, and on the great number of His names and attributes, and on the great number of His troops and angels.” (Reference: Al-‘Aqeedah al-Tadmuriyyah by Shaykh al-Islam Ibn Taymiyah, p. 109). And Allaah knows best.

Islam Q&A

Sheikh Muhammed Salih Al-Munajjid (www.islam-qa.com)

You have a cut and paste answer for everything don't you? Have you ever tried thinking for yourself?

ciko
12-03-2012, 12:07 PM
But the test is not fair because the flesh is so weak. The punishment for failing this test is also incredibly severe. The ego, the sex drive, these are strong physical things, they are to a great extent necessary for us to operate in the world. Why make the punishment for failing this test (which involves some things which are part of our nature) so severe?

Would it not be more loving that ok, fine, you fail the test then you have to reincarnate somewhere until you get it right? Why the cruelty of hell? It does not equate with a God of love. Your opinion?


Why make the punishment for failing this test (which involves some things which are part of our nature) so severe?

it is very easy to past this test, the only thing is that, do you want to past this test, do you want to work for it to past the test?

Imagine student say, i am not going to prepare my self for the test on university, it is to hard, and he does not even open his book to prepare himself, and ha falls down on the test. why this, beacuse he did not even try to past this test, like you people here.

it is not hardas long as you want it, beacuse God helps people to past , you need to ask god for help, then you will know how it is easy to past it.


Would it not be more loving that ok, fine, you fail the test then you have to reincarnate somewhere until you get it right?

imagine, people stay in front of God on the day of judgment and they say like

God say in quran:

And if you only could see when the criminals shall hang their heads before their Lord (saying): "Our Lord! We have now seen and heard, so send us back, that we will do righteous good deeds. Verily, we now believe with certainty.'') (32:12),

but God answers even what would happen if they reincarnate

God says:

6:27 If you could only see, when they are made to stand before the Fire, how they will say, ‘If only we could be sent back, we would not reject the revelations of our Lord, but be among the believers.’

28 No! The truth they used to hide will become all too clear to them. Even if they were brought back, they would only return to the very thing that was forbidden to them- they are such liars!


Why the cruelty of hell?

it is a punishment for evildoers, if there was no Hell God would not be Just, beacuse all criminals would escape from punishment, do you people understand this.


It does not equate with a God of love. Your opinion?

Hell equates with Gods justice, not love.

God's love is paradise, his hell is His justice and punishment.

ciko
12-03-2012, 12:22 PM
You have a cut and paste answer for everything don't you? Have you ever tried thinking for yourself?

you dont understand dont you ???

why should i waste my time writing same answer when answers is allready there?

do you see that i am only muslim on this thread and there is several of you who ask questions, how should reach to answer them all ?

ciko
12-03-2012, 12:24 PM
If you only people could read the quran, you would get all answers from God direct to you.

then you can see if it is logical answers or is it from God or anybody else.

adam 7
12-03-2012, 12:38 PM
69:44 if [the Prophet Muhammed] had attributed some fabrication to Us,45. We would have seized him by his right hand, 46. Then cut off his aorta47. and none of you(his friends) could have defended him. 48. This Qur’an is a message for those who want to stay on the right path.

Hi ciko, this confirms what I thought. The real authors of the quran was muhammed's followers, after his death. Note the use of "we" and "us".

ciko
12-03-2012, 12:41 PM
Hi ciko, this confirms what I thought. The real authors of the quran was muhammed's followers, after his death. Note the use of "we" and "us".

you are guessing to much :D dont do that, it is not good for you health;)

how can muhammed's followers be authors of the quran when quran was revealed during muhammed's life????

adam 7
12-03-2012, 12:46 PM
If you only people could read the quran, you would get all answers from God direct to you. then you can see if it is logical answers or is it from God or anybody else.

Hi ciko, these little chats we have, remind me of when I used to be on the "Catholic Answers Forum" (CAF). Like hard core Catholics, your belief system is encased in concrete :D

You'd be amazed at what they would believe in. Its incredible when you are outside of a bubble, at how off the chart some people can be. They were absolute 100% belief in the literalness of the Bible, praying to Mary, the pope being infallible, etc.

No amount of evidence or argument will convince you that Muslims do not possess all the right answers.

Just like on CAF, no amount of evidence or argument will convince them that Catholics do not possess all the right answers.

And on fundie forums, no amount of evidence or argument will convince them that Protestant Christians do not possess all the right answers.

You cant all be right ;) You can however all be wrong :D

ciko
12-03-2012, 12:51 PM
Hi ciko, these little chats we have, remind me of when I used to be on the "Catholic Answers Forum" (CAF). Like hard core Catholics, your belief system is encased in concrete :D

You'd be amazed at what they would believe in. Its incredible when you are outside of a bubble, at how off the chart some people can be. They were absolute 100% belief in the literalness of the Bible, praying to Mary, the pope being infallible, etc.

No amount of evidence or argument will convince you that Muslims do not possess all the right answers.

Just like on CAF, no amount of evidence or argument will convince them that Catholics do not possess all the right answers.

And on fundie forums, no amount of evidence or argument will convince them that Protestant Christians do not possess all the right answers.

You cant all be right ;) You can however all be wrong :D

have you read quran my friend :)? if not, how can you discuss a book wich you never read?

can you imagine, reading in news papers someone analyzing a book from Stephen King :D and people ask him, did you read that book, he says, "no, or maybe 5 pages, something like that..."

selig
12-03-2012, 01:08 PM
you dont understand dont you ???

why should i waste my time writing same answer when answers is allready there?

do you see that i am only muslim on this thread and there is several of you who ask questions, how should reach to answer them all ?

TBH I do have a hard time understanding you at times but that is simply because your grasp of the English language isn't very good. I do hope English isn't your first language.

You don't answer all the questions either.

All you ever do is build straw man arguments by cutting and pasting quotes that generally have no relevance to the question that was originally asked, whilst ignoring anything you don't have a cut and paste answer for, and redefine words.

Then you claim that we don't understand the answer and start calling us liars if we push the subject to try to get a proper answer out of you.

This has been going on for +60 pages now and is quite clear for anybody to see.

You still haven't answered my question of whether Muhammed owned slaves or not properly btw, you only ever admitted to him owning one servant (once you'd redefined the word slave to mean servant), would you like to continue down that road again? If you'd like I can provide Hadiths again, although I'll probably just repost the ones that have been posted in this thread half a dozen times already.

http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Farsideology:_Names_of_Muhammad%E2%80%99s_Slaves

adam 7
12-03-2012, 01:28 PM
You still haven't answered my question of whether Muhammed owned slaves or not properly btw

The answer is clearly yes. Just like in Old Testament, Roman times, and every ther ancient culture.

selig
12-03-2012, 01:34 PM
The answer is clearly yes. Just like in Old Testament, Roman times, and every ther ancient culture.

I know that and you know that, in fact every man and his dog knows it, but ciko refuses to admit it because he knows it paints his idol in a bad light.

adam 7
12-03-2012, 01:36 PM
have you read quran my friend :)? if not, how can you discuss a book wich you never read?

I have read some of it. From what I have read, I find it has some good stuff, but also some intolerance and cruelty. Much like the Bible. :rolleyes:

IMO only brainwashing can make you think otherwise.

adam 7
12-03-2012, 01:44 PM
This is an example of what I was taking about earlier.

Religious delusion.

A video clip of Brother Andre
Blessed Brother Andre - YouTube

These two nice Catholic presenters talk about the miracles of Brother Andre.

This saint places a statue of Saint Joseph in a chapel and according to these presenters the entire story is miraculous.

Ciko, do you think these Bob and Penny Lord are deluded?

They are sincere.

They appear to believe 100% in what they are saying.

That miracles are true. That praying to statues has real effects.

That your prayers to the saints will be answered.

But.. you see, outside of this bubble you can see they are deluded.

The way we see Islam is exactly the same as I expect you see this.

Its just another religious delusion.

ciko
12-03-2012, 01:51 PM
I know that and you know that, in fact every man and his dog knows it, but ciko refuses to admit it because he knows it paints his idol in a bad light.

but you really dont understand , please read this

http://www.answering-christianity.com/equality.htm

if muhammed had "slaves" i would not call thyem slaves beacuse his slave is like a servant to a rich family, when this servant helps with children, food, homework, cleaning...

but as soon as you say slave you connect it with this

http://www.soxfirst.com/wp-content/uploads/slavery.jpg

and then you say, ooh muhammed had slaves, and connect him to this phtoos above, and say "Muhammed was evil"

but you dont read how muhammed was with slaves/servants and what they tought about him.

ciko
12-03-2012, 01:52 PM
I have read some of it. From what I have read, I find it has some good stuff, but also some intolerance and cruelty. Much like the Bible. :rolleyes:

IMO only brainwashing can make you think otherwise.


intolerance and cruelty

what intolerance and cruelty?

ciko
12-03-2012, 01:54 PM
This is an example of what I was taking about earlier.

Religious delusion.

A video clip of Brother Andre
Blessed Brother Andre - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rXYFAThNHHg)

These two nice Catholic presenters talk about the miracles of Brother Andre.

This saint places a statue of Saint Joseph in a chapel and according to these presenters the entire story is miraculous.

Ciko, do you think these Bob and Penny Lord are deluded?

They are sincere.

They appear to believe 100% in what they are saying.

That miracles are true. That praying to statues has real effects.

That your prayers to the saints will be answered.

But.. you see, outside of this bubble you can see they are deluded.

The way we see Islam is exactly the same as I expect you see this.

Its just another religious delusion.

yes, both you and them are deluded, i can explain why is it so...
very easy, but neighter you nor christians know why you are deluded ;)

ciko
12-03-2012, 01:59 PM
let me ask you something Adam,

what is purpose of life, why are you here on earth?

selig
12-03-2012, 02:14 PM
If you only people could read the quran, you would get all answers from God direct to you.

then you can see if it is logical answers or is it from God or anybody else.

I have read enough of the quaran to know that it is geocentric nonsense that could not have been written by the creator of the universe.

It is He who created for you all of that which is on the earth. Then He directed Himself to the heaven, [His being above all creation], and made them seven heavens, and He is Knowing of all things. 2:29

[And] who created seven heavens in layers. You do not see in the creation of the Most Merciful any inconsistency. So return [your] vision [to the sky]; do you see any breaks? 67:3

And it is He who created the night and the day and the sun and the moon; all [heavenly bodies] in an orbit are swimming. 21:33

It is not allowable for the sun to reach the moon, nor does the night overtake the day, but each, in an orbit, is swimming. 36:40

It is Allah who has created seven heavens and of the earth, the like of them. [His] command descends among them so you may know that Allah is over all things competent and that Allah has encompassed all things in knowledge. 65:12

http://quran.com/

CONSIDER those [stars] that rise only to set, and move [in their orbits] with steady motion, 79:1-2

http://www.islamitexts.org/?k=79:1

Volume 9, Book 93, Number 520 :
Narrated by Abu Dharr

I entered the mosque while Allah's Apostle was sitting there. When the sun had set, the Prophet said, "O Abu Dharr! Do you know where this (sun) goes?" I said, "Allah and His Apostle know best." He said, "It goes and asks permission to prostrate, and it is allowed, and (one day) it, as if being ordered to return whence it came, then it will rise from the west." Then the Prophet recited, "That: "And the sun runs on its fixed course (for a term decreed)," (36.38) as it is recited by 'Abdullah.

Volume 9, Book 93, Number 528 :
Narrated by Abu Dharr

I asked the Prophet regarding the Verse: 'And the sun runs on its fixed course for a term decreed for it.' (36.28) He said, "Its fixed course is underneath Allah's Throne."

Volume 4, Book 54, Number 421 :
Narrated by Abu Dhar

The Prophet asked me at sunset, "Do you know where the sun goes (at the time of sunset)?" I replied, "Allah and His Apostle know better." He said, "It goes (i.e. travels) till it prostrates Itself underneath the Throne and takes the permission to rise again, and it is permitted and then (a time will come when) it will be about to prostrate itself but its prostration will not be accepted, and it will ask permission to go on its course but it will not be permitted, but it will be ordered to return whence it has come and so it will rise in the west. And that is the interpretation of the Statement of Allah: "And the sun Runs its fixed course For a term (decreed). that is The Decree of (Allah) The Exalted in Might, The All-Knowing." (36.38)

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-tuFx4D9E4m0/TiWT3vvB8oI/AAAAAAAAAgw/zIl6Jp5xoSI/s1600/Ancient%252520Cosmology2.jpg

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/thumb/4/47/Ptolemaic_system_2_%28PSF%29.png/576px-Ptolemaic_system_2_%28PSF%29.png

adam 7
12-03-2012, 02:24 PM
let me ask you something Adam,
what is purpose of life, why are you here on earth?

Hmm tricky question. I'd say to live a life in a positive way.

Loving my wife has got to be high up the list ;)

If you are saying in terms of "God". I see God as positive energy. So to increase the positive in my life and reduce the negative.

My purpose on this forum, is more straight forward, simple recreation.

selig
12-03-2012, 02:31 PM
but you really dont understand , please read this

http://www.answering-christianity.com/equality.htm

here you go again calling us stupid...


if muhammed had "slaves" i would not call thyem slaves beacuse his slave is like a servant to a rich family, when this servant helps with children, food, homework, cleaning...

here you are redefining words to suit your agenda.

Were these "servants" of Muhammded paid for their work and free to leave his employment should they wish? If not they were slaves.

slave/slāv/
Noun:
A person who is the legal property of another and is forced to obey them.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=slave+meaning&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a#hl=en&newwindow=1&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=spR&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB%3Aofficial&sclient=psy-ab&q=slave+definition&oq=slave+definition&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=12&gs_upl=162035l164888l0l166447l11l11l0l0l0l0l203l10 76l8.2.1l11l0&gs_l=serp.12...162035l164888l0l166447l11l11l0l0l0l 0l203l1076l8j2j1l11l0&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=5aebd05a57a4c016&biw=1280&bih=857

serv·ant/ˈsərvənt/
Noun: A person who performs duties for others, esp. a person employed in a house on domestic duties or as a personal attendant.

If they were paid for there employment and free to leave then I trust you can provide proof of this?

but as soon as you say slave you connect it with this

And here you telling me what I think again when the truth is I was thinking of modern day muslims like this.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-12710481

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/muslim-lady-doc-charged-with-modernday-slav/679985/

http://www.topnews.in/law/brit-muslim-woman-convicted-trafficking-woman-she-used-slave-255560

and then you say, ooh muhammed had slaves, and connect him to this phtoos above, and say "Muhammed was evil"

People who own slaves are evil. There really is no two ways about it.

but you dont read how muhammed was with slaves/servants and what they tought about him.

I have read (and provided proof) that he used to laugh when his friends beat their slaves so it isn't me that refuses to read. And, just because his slaves (allegedly) liked him does not mean that slavery is ok: have you ever heard of Stockholm syndrome?

It's amusing that you still can't bring yourself to admit that he bought, sold and kidnapped slaves (wasn't his Jewish wife a conquered sex slave that he traded several other conquered slaves for?) as well. He just employed few servants lol.

ciko
12-03-2012, 02:36 PM
Hmm tricky question. I'd say to live a life in a positive way.

Loving my wife has got to be high up the list ;)

If you are saying in terms of "God". I see God as positive energy. So to increase the positive in my life and reduce the negative.

My purpose on this forum, is more straight forward, simple recreation.

I'd say to live a life in a positive way.

but what about people who can not live a life in a positive way.

what about people who can not have a wife?

what is their purpose then? that is the reason that purpose of life is something else not loving wife.

what if your purpose of life is loving your wife but she maybe have sex with another man next year and leave you? what purpose of life is that man :rolleyes:?

ciko
12-03-2012, 02:40 PM
here you go again calling us stupid...



here you are redefining words to suit your agenda.

Were the "servants of Muhammded paid for their work and free to leave his employment should they wish? If not they were slaves.



https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=slave+meaning&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a#hl=en&newwindow=1&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=spR&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB%3Aofficial&sclient=psy-ab&q=slave+definition&oq=slave+definition&aq=f&aqi=&aql=&gs_sm=12&gs_upl=162035l164888l0l166447l11l11l0l0l0l0l203l10 76l8.2.1l11l0&gs_l=serp.12...162035l164888l0l166447l11l11l0l0l0l 0l203l1076l8j2j1l11l0&pbx=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=5aebd05a57a4c016&biw=1280&bih=857



If hey were paid and free to leave then I trust you can provide proof of this?



And here you telling me what I think again when the truth is I was thinking of modern day muslims like this.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-12710481

http://www.indianexpress.com/news/muslim-lady-doc-charged-with-modernday-slav/679985/

http://www.topnews.in/law/brit-muslim-woman-convicted-trafficking-woman-she-used-slave-255560



People who own slaves are evil. There really is no two ways about it.

It's amusing you still can't bring yourself to admit that he bought, sold and conquered slaves (wasn't his Jewish wife a conquered sex slave?) as well. He just employed few servants lol.


let see now , how it really is


Some teachings from Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him:

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: "When the slave of anyone amongst you prepares food for him and he serves him after having sat close to (and undergoing the hardship of) heat and smoke, he should make him (the slave) sit along with him and make him eat (along with him), and if the food seems to run short, then he should spare some portion for him (from his own share) - (another narrator) Dawud said:" i. e. a morsel or two". 4097. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Oaths (Kitab Al-Aiman), Book 015, Number 4096)"

Narrated Al-Ma'rur: "At Ar-Rabadha I met Abu Dhar who was wearing a cloak, and his slave, too, was wearing a similar one. I asked about the reason for it. He replied, "I abused a person by calling his mother with bad names." The Prophet said to me, 'O Abu Dhar! Did you abuse him by calling his mother with bad names You still have some characteristics of ignorance. Your slaves are your brothers and Allah has put them under your command. So whoever has a brother under his command should feed him of what he eats and dress him of what he wears. Do not ask them (slaves) to do things beyond their capacity (power) and if you do so, then help them.' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Belief, Volume 1, Book 2, Number 29)"

when you read this text above from Muhammed, what would you say rather servant or slave(like afro-american slave)?

selig
12-03-2012, 02:56 PM
let see now , how it really is


Some teachings from Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him:

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: "When the slave of anyone amongst you prepares food for him and he serves him after having sat close to (and undergoing the hardship of) heat and smoke, he should make him (the slave) sit along with him and make him eat (along with him), and if the food seems to run short, then he should spare some portion for him (from his own share) - (another narrator) Dawud said:" i. e. a morsel or two". 4097. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Oaths (Kitab Al-Aiman), Book 015, Number 4096)"

Narrated Al-Ma'rur: "At Ar-Rabadha I met Abu Dhar who was wearing a cloak, and his slave, too, was wearing a similar one. I asked about the reason for it. He replied, "I abused a person by calling his mother with bad names." The Prophet said to me, 'O Abu Dhar! Did you abuse him by calling his mother with bad names You still have some characteristics of ignorance. Your slaves are your brothers and Allah has put them under your command. So whoever has a brother under his command should feed him of what he eats and dress him of what he wears. Do not ask them (slaves) to do things beyond their capacity (power) and if you do so, then help them.' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Belief, Volume 1, Book 2, Number 29)"

when you read this text above from Muhammed, what would you say rather servant or slave(like afro-american slave)?

I'd sooner be neither but, if I had to choose, I'd choose to be someone's servant simply because servants, being employed and not owned, are paid for their work and are free to leave their jobs.

Now, can you provide any evidence that Muhammed's slaves were in fact servants, e.g. that they were paid for their time and free to leave, or not?

If not then it's clear to anybody that reads his thread that they were his slaves. No matter what Muhammed said to feed and cloth them with.

ciko
12-03-2012, 05:01 PM
I'd sooner be neither but, if I had to choose, I'd choose to be someone's servant simply because servants, being employed and not owned, are paid for their work and are free to leave their jobs.

Now, can you provide any evidence that Muhammed's slaves were in fact servants, e.g. that they were paid for their time and free to leave, or not?

If not then it's clear to anybody that reads his thread that they were his slaves. No matter what Muhammed said to feed and cloth them with.

read this

The Liberation of Slaves in Islam:

The reason why Muslims had slaves is because when Islam was still weak and growing, the Arab Pagans' tribes used to launch continuous attacks on the Muslims to destroy Islam once and for all. Muslims had entered many bloody and vicious battles against the non believers which had cost both sides many lives from the men. When the Muslims used to enter a city after defeating its army, they would face a new dilemma. They often meet hundreds of non believing women and young children and elderly left without any support because their men had died in the battle field.

For this reason, Allah Almighty allowed for the Muslims to take those people as slaves to help them survive. Keep in mind that during that time, the Muslims didn't have an Islamic government and welfare system to take care of the orphans and widows from the non believers. The Muslims had to take care of them from their own means.

Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him ordered the Muslims to be very sensitive to their slaves. He ordered the Muslims to buy the slave young boys and girls the same quality of clothes and gifts that they would buy for their children. He also ordered Muslims not to hit or be violent to adult slaves. He ordered Muslims to be loving and caring for them.

Prophet Muhammad also urged wealthy Muslims to buy slaves from the Pagan Arabs and to let them free after that. One of Prophet Muhammad's best friends was a slave from Africa called Bilal Al-Habashi. Bilal was bought from his Pagan master by Abu Baker Al-Siddeek, one of Muhammad's best friends. After Abu Baker bought Bilal, he set him free.

Islam as I mentioned in the introduction came to fight slavery. Allah Almighty ordered the Muslims to gradually liberate slaves and to give them their freedom in many cases.

Let us look at Noble Verse 4:92 "Never should a believer kill a believer; but (If it so happens) by mistake, (Compensation is due): If one (so) kills a believer, it is ordained that he should free a believing slave, and pay compensation to the deceased's family, unless they remit it freely. If the deceased belonged to a people at war with you, and he was a believer, the freeing of a believing slave (Is enough). If he belonged to a people with whom ye have treaty of Mutual alliance, compensation should be paid to his family, and a believing slave be freed. For those who find this beyond their means, (is prescribed) a fast for two months running: by way of repentance to God: for God hath all knowledge and all wisdom." In this Noble Verse, we see that Allah Almighty ordered to free a believing slave if a Muslim accidentally kills another Muslim. This Noble Verse came to encourage Muslims to liberate slaves.

Let us look at Noble Verse 5:89 "God will not call you to account for what is futile in your oaths, but He will call you to account for your deliberate oaths: for expiation, feed ten indigent persons, on a scale of the average for the food of your families; or clothe them; or give a slave his freedom. If that is beyond your means, fast for three days. That is the expiation for the oaths ye have sworn. But keep to your oaths. Thus doth God make clear to you His signs, that ye may be grateful." This Noble Verse is also another proof that Allah Almighty did encourage Muslims to liberate slaves.

Let us look at Noble Verse 58:3 "But those who divorce their wives by Zihar, then wish to go back on the words they uttered, (It is ordained that such a one) should free a slave before they touch each other: Thus are ye admonished to perform: and God is well-acquainted with (all) that ye do." This Noble Verse is another proof that Allah Almighty did encourage Muslims to liberate slaves.

Narrated Abu Musa Al-Ash'ari: "The Prophet said, "Give food to the hungry, pay a visit to the sick and release (set free) the one in captivity (by paying his ransom)." (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Food, Meals, Volume 7, Book 65, Number 286)"

Narrated Asma: "No doubt the Prophet ordered people to manumit slaves during the solar eclipse. (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Eclipses, Volume 2, Book 18, Number 163)"

"'Abdullah b. 'Umar reported that 'Umar b. Khattab asked the Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) as he was at ji'rana (a town near Mecca) on his way back from Ta'if: Messenger of Allah, I had taken a vow during the days of Ignorance that I would observe I'tikaf for one day in the Sacred Mosque. So what is your opinion? He said: Go and observe I'tikaf for a day. And Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) gave him a slave girl out of the one-fifth (of the spoils of war meant for the Holy Prophet). And when Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) set the war prisoners free. 'Umar b. Khattab heard their voice as they were saying: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) has set us free. He (Hadrat 'Umar) said: What is this? They said: Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) has set free the prisoners of war (which had fallen to the lot of people). Thereupon he (Hadrat 'Umar) said: Abdullah, go to that slave-girl and set her free. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Oaths (Kitab Al-Aiman), Book 015, Number 4074)"

If a Muslim beats his slave or slaps him on the face, then he must set him free:

"Zadhan reported that Ibn Umar called his slave and he found the marks (of beating) upon his back. He said to him: I have caused you pain. He said: No. But he (Ibn Umar) said: You are free. He then took hold of something from the earth and said: There is no reward for me even to the weight equal to it. I heard Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: He who beats a slave without cognizable offence of his or slaps him, then expiation for it is that he should set him free. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Oaths (Kitab Al-Aiman), Book 015, Number 4079)"

"Abu Mas'ud reported that he had been beating his slave and he had been saying: "I seek refuge with Allah, but he continued beating him, whereupon he said: I seek refuge with Allah's Messenger, and he spared him. Thereupon Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: By Allah, God has more dominance over you than you have over him (the slave). He said that he set him free. This hadith has been narrated on the authority of Shu'ba with the same chain of transmitters, but made no mention of (these words) of his: I seek refuge with Allah, I seek refuge with Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him). (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Oaths (Kitab Al-Aiman), Book 015, Number 4089)"

More on freeing slaves:

Narrated Salamah ibn Sakhr al-Bayadi: "I was a man who was more given than others to sexual intercourse with women. When the month of Ramadan came, I feared lest I should have intercourse with my wife, and this evil should remain with me till the morning. So I made my wife like my mother's back to me till the end of Ramadan. But one night when she was waiting upon me, something of her was revealed. Suddenly I jumped upon her. When the morning came I went to my people and informed them about this matter. I said: Go along with me to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him). They said: No, by Allah. So I went to the Prophet (peace be upon him and informed him of the matter. He said: Have you really committed it, Salamah? I said: I committed it twice, Apostle of Allah. I am content with the Commandment of Allah, the Exalted; so take a decision about me according to what Allah has shown you. He said: Free a slave. I said: By Him Who sent you with truth, I do not possess a neck other than this: and I struck the surface of my neck. He said: Then fast two consecutive months. I said: Whatever I suffered is due to fasting. He said: Feed sixty poor people with a wasq of dates. I said: By Him Who sent you with truth, we passed the night hungry; there was no food in our house. He said: Then go to the collector of sadaqah of Banu Zurayq; he must give it to you. Then feed sixty poor people with a wasq of dates; and you and your family eat the remaining dates. Then I came back to my people, and said (to them): I found with you poverty and bad opinion; and I found with the Prophet (peace_be_upon_him) prosperity and good opinion. He has commanded me to give alms to you. Ibn al-Ala' added: Ibn Idris said: Bayadah is a sub-clan of Banu Zurayq. (Translation of Sunan Abu-Dawud, Divorce (Kitab Al-Talaq), Book 12, Number 2207)"

Narrated Khuwaylah, daughter of Malik ibn Tha'labah: "My husband, Aws ibn as-Samit, pronounced the words: You are like my mother. So I came to the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him), complaining to him about my husband. The Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) disputed with me and said: Remain dutiful to Allah; he is your cousin. I continued (complaining) until the Qur'anic verse came down: "Allah hath heard the words of her who disputeth with thee concerning her husband...." till the prescription of expiation. He then said: He should set free a slave. She said: He cannot afford it. He said: He should fast for two consecutive months. She said: Apostle of Allah, he is an old man; he cannot keep fasts. He said: He should feed sixty poor people. She said: He has nothing which he may give in alms. At that moment an araq (i.e. date-basket holding fifteen or sixteen sa's) was brought to him. I said: I shall help him with another date-basked ('araq). He said: You have done well. Go and feed sixty poor people on his behalf, and return to your cousin. The narrator said: An araq holds sixty sa's of dates. (Translation of Sunan Abu-Dawud, Divorce (Kitab Al-Talaq), Book 12, Number 2208)"

There are a lot more Noble Verses from the Noble Quran and Sayings from our beloved Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him that push for freeing of slaves. The Islamic attitude toward slaves is very clear and straight forward: All slaves are eventually to be freed! And they were all freed during the times of Islam from the Judeo-Christian and Pagan slavery.


Again, please visit: The gradual ending of slavery in Islam.
http://www.answering-christianity.com/quran/incomplete_rebuttal.htm#slavery

3- Can a slave request his freedom from his Muslim owner?

First, it is important to know that thousands of years ago life was different than today. Today, people wouldn't accept slavery for any reason. The reason for this is because people are a lot more independent both financially, education wise, mentally, etc... But people back then were different. When a tribe or a group of people lose a major battle and their money is mostly, if not all, is taken as war booty by the other side, then people could and would accept being slaves for the following reasons:

1- Both financial and social security. When their country or tribe lost the war, they also lost most or all of their money as war booty. Being out of money and food, it becomes necessary for an individual to find the means for basic survival in life. Living as a slave would provide this.

2- Protection from hostile individuals. Even under the Islamic rule, you can still find hostile individuals who violate the Law and take matters into their own hands. An enemy family can be sometime in danger if they don't have a "protector".

3- Widows, Orphans, and the extremely poor of the enemy side need the financial and social protection from a Master. Back then, there were no governments with good social system that protects everyone. Slavery back then was that social system in special cases.

There are probably more points I can add, but I think these are sufficient enough. Let us now see the Islamic System toward Slaves:



Slaves can request and get their freedom from their Muslim Masters:

Yes slaves were taken from the blood-thirsty and hostile enemies, but they were also given the right to get their freedom when ever they want. The Noble Quran not only allows slaves to request their freedom from their Muslim masters, but also orders the Muslim masters to pay the slaves money to help them stand on their feet and to be able to face life with a good jump start.

Let us look at Noble Verse 24:33 "Let those who find not the wherewithal for marriage keep themselves chaste, until God gives them means out of His grace. And if any of your slaves ask for a deed in writing (to enable them to earn their freedom for a certain sum), give them such a deed if ye know any good in them: yea, give them something yourselves out of the means which God has given to you. But force not your maids to prostitution when they desire chastity, in order that ye may make a gain in the goods of this life. But if anyone compels them, yet, after such compulsion, is God, Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful (to them)," In this Noble Verse, we see that if a slave requests his freedom from his Muslim master, then his master not only must help him earn his freedom if there is good in the Slave, but also pay him money so the slave can have a good start in his free life.

"The law of slavery in the legal sense of the term is now obsolete. While it had any meaning, Islam made the slave's lot as easy as possible. A slave, male or female, could ask for conditional manumission by a written deed fixing the amount required for manumission and allowing the slave meanwhile to earn money by lawful means and perhaps marry and bring up a family. Such a deed was not to be refused if the request was genuine and the slave had character. Not only that, but the master is directed to help with money out of his own resources in order to enable the slave to earn his or her own liberty." [2]

Again, the Prophet peace be upon him said:

Narrated Abu Musa Al-Ash'ari: "The Prophet said, "Give food to the hungry, pay a visit to the sick and release (set free) the one in captivity (by paying his ransom)." (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Food, Meals, Volume 7, Book 65, Number 286)"

4- Conclusion:

Islam is a very merciful religion on slaves. Islam came and fought many bloody battles against the Arabs who believed in slavery and who brutally enslaved many people. Islam also sees the importance of liberating slaves, and had helped to gradually liberate slaves until all of them were ultimately freed. Islam allows for any slave to request from his Muslim owner his freedom, and orders the Muslim owner to grant that slave his freedom and to pay him money on top of it to help him get a good start in his new free life.

adam 7
12-03-2012, 05:04 PM
what about people who can not have a wife?
what is their purpose then? that is the reason that purpose of life is something else not loving wife.

I think without a soulmate a person can find fulfilment in life in helping other people or fellow animals.

vooei
12-03-2012, 05:48 PM
Sexual slavery in Islam mandated by Muhammad :
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Concerns_with_Islam:_Sexual_Slavery_in_Islam


List of killings ordered or supported by Muhammad:
http://wikiislam.net/wiki/List_of_Killings_Ordered_or_Supported_by_Muhammad

nirvana
12-03-2012, 05:51 PM
WHY DONT YOU BECOME A GAY, WHY DONT YOUR WOMAN BECOME LESBIAN, AND YOU CHILDREN MAYBE THEY ALSO BECOME GAYS, AND GET SOME OF THOSE diseases. HOW WOULD YOU FEEL THEN?


HOW WOULD YOU FEEL IF YOUR CHILDREN BECOME GAYS, AND THEY GET AIDS? WOULD YOU CONSIDER HOMOSEXUALITY OK AND NORMAL ACT?


Because i am not gay so why would i become gay? Your the one who hates gay people:o

Why do you hate gay people so much? I know its because your from a peaceful religeon but being from a peaceful religeon is no excuse for hatred is it?
Your prejudiced against gay people but ok about adult and child marriage:o yes ok:o:o:o

ciko
12-03-2012, 06:14 PM
I think without a soulmate a person can find fulfilment in life in helping other people or fellow animals.

so you are here to help other people or fellow animals?

but if you can not help other people like many poor people in the world who need help themselves.

that shows that your purpose of life is not logical.

purpose of life most be connected to every human being, to poor, rich, tall, smal, old, young...everyone.

ciko
12-03-2012, 06:23 PM
Because i am not gay so why would i become gay? Your the one who hates gay people:o

Why do you hate gay people so much? I know its because your from a peaceful religeon but being from a peaceful religeon is no excuse for hatred is it?
Your prejudiced against gay people but ok about adult and child marriage:o yes ok:o:o:o

what would happen after 100 years if whole humankind were gays and lesbians, and there was no births?

vooei
12-03-2012, 06:31 PM
what would happen after 100 years if whole humankind were gays and lesbians, and there was no births?

The civilised world can create humans in laboratorys now, it wouldn't really matter.

What will happen in the Muslim world if you continue to keep having sex with your cousins and producing inbred children ?

khepera2010
12-03-2012, 07:19 PM
.....What will happen in the Muslim world if you continue to keep having sex with your cousins and producing inbred children ?

;)

selig
12-03-2012, 07:30 PM
read this

I read it the last time you copied and pasted it but I still don't buy that owning slaves is ever a humanitarian endeavour: did you honestly thank that reposting it would change my mind?:D

You might like to justify slavery but to me, and most other people in the civilised world, it is (and always will be) abhorrent.

And this is why Islam can never be the true religion from God.

That and the fact that it is geocentric nonsense.

luciferhorus
12-03-2012, 08:25 PM
what if your purpose of life is loving your wife but she maybe have sex with another man next year and leave you? what purpose of life is that man

http://www.chowrangi.com/wp-content/uploads/2009/06/Child_Marriage_Bride_cry.jpg

Because maybe she did not love you; maybe you just bought her from her father to add to your harem of private sex slaves; maybe you beat her as your illiterate slave trader of a prophet Mohammad (an eternity of curses upon his name) commanded; maybe someone else loved her more than you; maybe you were too old for her; maybe she did not want to be a slave; maybe she wanted to be free; maybe she just wanted to fuck around; maybe she just hated Islam; maybe she thought that you were a bastard and a psychotic mysoginistic religious fanatic.

http://bocktherobber.com/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2011/03/sharia5.jpg

Anyway, if your slave girl runs away, you can have her executed for adultery, and buy a new one; you can pick them up in Pakistan for $500.

A slave master will usually be expected to argue that slavery is good.

It is the slave's judgement which is more important.

Lux

"The slaves shall serve."

Behead those who follow Islam

http://banislamnow.com/pics/islam_animated_gif.gif

http://www.allamericanblogger.com/wp-content/uploads/Muslims-carrying-banners-declaring-Islam-will-dominate-the-world-protest-at-the-visit-of-Mr-Wilders-to-the-UK1.jpg

http://www.ippnw-students.org/BAN/explosion.jpg

The only cure for Islamic governments.

luciferhorus
12-03-2012, 08:28 PM
what would happen after 100 years if whole humankind were gays and lesbians, and there was no births?

http://www.whatthefolly.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/UN-condone-homosexual-execution-graphics.jpg

It will never happen; human beings are naturally bisexual, just like most Muslim men; they just can't talk about if for fear of being stoned to death. Some people just "choose" the Gay lifestyle as they find more love there than with heterosexual partners and they "prefer" same sex partners. Being bisexual is much more "gay (i.e., it is more fun)." Perhaps that is why bisexuality is so common in the Islamic world.

Lux

http://jau.me/public/ilustraciones/jaume-d-urgell-detengan-la-ejecucion-de-gays-en-iran-durgell-stop-gay-execution.jpg

http://markhumphrys.com/Icons/adl.poster.gif
Atheists should support Israel against nations which promote Sharia Law

http://markhumphrys.com/Icons/adl.poster.2.gif
The GLBT (Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transseual) community should support Israel.

http://markhumphrys.com/Bitmaps/israel.gay.jpg

http://opinion-maker.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Israel_ready_to_bomb_Iran_with_nuclear_weapons1.jp g
Those who wish to stop the spread of militant Islam should support Israel

selig
12-03-2012, 08:40 PM
It will never happen; human beings are naturally bisexual, just like most Muslim men; they just can't talk about if for fear of being stoned to death.

I think this depends on where you are. In some regions it is perfectly acceptable, even if it is meant to be illegal, to bugger young boys.:eek:

Bacha Bazi (Persian: بچه بازی, literally "playing with children" in Iranian dialect and "playing with boys" in Afghani dialect), also known as bacchá (from the Persian bacheh بچه‌ "child, young man, calf") or bacha bereesh (beardless boy) is sexual slavery and child prostitution[1] in which prepubescent and adolescent boys are sold to wealthy or powerful men for entertainment and sexual activities.

Bacha bazi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

I have heard that there is an old Arab proverb that goes something like "a woman is for breeding but a boy is for pleasure" too.

It's shocking that the Muslims don't get on better with the Catholics really.:D

luciferhorus
12-03-2012, 08:48 PM
I think this depends on where you are. In some regions it is perfectly acceptable, even if it is meant to be illegal, to bugger young boys.:eek:



Bacha bazi - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacha_bazi)

I have heard that there is an old Arab proverb that goes something like "a woman is for breeding but a boy is for pleasure" too.

It's shocking the Muslims don't get on better with the Catholics really.:D

I have been to many Muslim countries which are openly homophobic but privately a hive of bisexuality.

In Morocco for example, it is often called the most bisexual nation on earth; even their king Mohammad who spent his student years in Belgium was known to frequent gay bars and saunas and allegedly still has an American boyfriend.
And yet it is an Islamic monarchy and people are put in jail for homosexual relationships and it is forbidden to mention in the media that their king is queer.

Moroccan men marry to have children and fuck each other for pleasure and for love. Morocco is probably more queer than Amsterdam, London, Berlin and San Fransisco put together; it is just that it is not all out in the open.

Morocco; the world's queer capital; a queer king and prision for homosexuality.

Hypocrisy.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-p7cqEwCE1Lc/TWIYAF80i3I/AAAAAAAARQY/KI7fw7iPBEs/s1600/King%2Bmorocco.jpg

The Islamic King Mohammad of Morocco; queer as fuck.

itruth
13-03-2012, 12:03 AM
You have a cut and paste answer for everything don't you? Have you ever tried thinking for yourself?

Actually, ciko is all over place. They don't think, they just follow like the proud slaves of allah they claim themselves to be.

Ciko has contridicted himself countless times. The latest cut and paste response he gave actually shows how weak and bankrupt islam and islamic dawahist are.

Earlier ciko was decieving people quoting a verse from the koran which says there is 'no compulsion in religion', until i gave him the islam q.a.com link which said that the no compulsion in religion verse had been ABROGATED/CANCELLED OUT by other verses in the koran. I noticed that ciko NEVER ONCE CAME AND SAID 'you're right, the verse has been cancelled out by other verses'. AND YET CIKO HAS THE NERVE TO CALL ME LIAR. I AM THE ONE TEACHING HIM KORAN.


THIS MEANS CIKO IS VERY CORRUPT AND CANNOT BE TRUSTED TO TELL THE TRUTH OF WHAT ISLAM TEACHES.

THE SAME LINK THAT I PROVIDED WHICH PROVED THAT CIKO DOESN'T UNDERSTAND ISLAM IS THE SAME SITE THAT HE IS NOW CUT AND PASTING FROM AS AN AUTHORITY.

Ciko counts on peoples ignorance of islam. Islam is theologically bankrupt and thats why the islamists who try to promote islam HAVE TO BE COMPULSIVE LIARS AND DECIEVERS.


Ciko, if islamqa.com is an authority, then THIS MEANS THAT PEOPLE ARE TO BE COMPELLED TO ENTER ISLAM OR BE MURDERED.


“[al-Tawbah 9:5] This verse is known as Ayat al-Sayf (the verse of the sword). THESE AND SIMILAR VERSES ABROGATE THE VERSES WHICH SAY THAT THERE IS NO COMPULSION TO BECOME A MUSLIM.” http://www.islam-qa.com/en/ref/34770

(Then kill the Mushrikin [pagans] wherever you find them) (9:5), and (Fight against those who believe not in Allah, nor in the Last Day) (9:29) until (And feel themselves subdued) (9:29).


The whole "we" = royal we is complete garbage.

When used by royalty the "we" = COMPLETE GOVERNMENT MADE UP OF KNOWN OFFICALS AND MEMBERS (PARTNERS).

Allah is supposed to have no partners, nothing is known of allah having a government. The "royal we claim" came only AFTER THE KUFFAR USED THE EXPRESSION TO DISCRIBE THEMSELVES AND GOD:

A common example is the royal we (Pluralis Majestatis), which is a nosism employed by a person of high office, such as a monarch, earl or pope. It is also used in certain formal contexts by bishops and university rectors. According to legend, the expression was first used in 1169 when the English King Henry II (d. 1189), hard pressed by his barons over an investiture controversy, used the word "we" to mean "God and I..." By reminding his audience that the monarch acted conjointly with the deity, he reasserted his claim to be the ruler by "divine right". (See Rolls Series, 2.12)

1) The royal we is an expression that is used by "PERSONS", allah is NOT A PERSON.

2) "Royal we" is a KUFFAR EXPRESSION which muslims are now claiming allah is following.

3) The explanation for use and meaning for the koranic use of the expression "we" from islamqa.com IS ONLY A SUGGESTION BY THE MUSLIMS, there is NO AUTHENTIC UNDERSTANDING IN ISLAM OF WHY THE EXPRESSION "WE" IS USED.

4), i suspect, that if one searches all the classic islamic works one will not find the early muslims saying that the "we" meant the "royal we", and the reason for that would be because the kuffar had yet to invent the "royal we" idea.

itruth
13-03-2012, 12:57 AM
but you really dont understand , please read this

http://www.answering-christianity.com/equality.htm

if muhammed had "slaves" i would not call thyem slaves beacuse his slave is like a servant to a rich family, when this servant helps with children, food, homework, cleaning...

but as soon as you say slave you connect it with this

http://www.soxfirst.com/wp-content/uploads/slavery.jpg

and then you say, ooh muhammed had slaves, and connect him to this phtoos above, and say "Muhammed was evil"

but you dont read how muhammed was with slaves/servants and what they tought about him.

Muhummad is connected to the drawing above;

Ali, who was Muhammad's son-in-law, whipped Aisha's slave in front of Muhammad to make her talk about the adultery charges against Aisha. Muhammad did not say a word to Ali about beating the female slave. [From the Sirat Rasulallah, p496.]

Narrated Ali ibn AbuTalib: A slave-girl belonging to the house of the Apostle of Allah (peace_be_upon_him) committed fornication. He (the Prophet) said: Rush up, Ali, and inflict the prescribed punishment on her. I then hurried up, and saw that blood was flowing from her, and did not stop. So I came to him and he said: Have you finished inflicting (punishment on her)? I said: I went to her while her blood was flowing. He said: Leave her alone till her bleeding stops; then inflict the prescribed punishment on her. And inflict the prescribed punishment on those whom your right hands possess (i.e. slaves). (Abu dawud. Book #38, Hadith #4458) http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=whom+your+right+hands+pos sess&translator=3&search=1&book=&start=0

If there is something good in her, she will do so (obey); and do not beat your wife as you beat your slave-girl. Abu dawud (Book #1, Hadith #0142) http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=beat+wife&translator=3&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all

"How does anyone of you beat his wife as he beats the stallion camel and then he may embrace (sleep with) her?" And Hisham said, "As he beats his slave" (Bukhari. Book #73, Hadith #68) http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=beat+wife&translator=1&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=all

if muhammed had "slaves" i would not call thyem slaves beacuse his slave is like a servant to a rich family, when this servant helps with children, food, homework, cleaning...

After slaving their days to their muslim masters who no doubt attacked their tribe "without warning", they would then become a sex slave, shared around, ect..


http://www.answering-christianity.com/equality.htm

The owner of answering christianity has this to say about how he goes about business:

“However, I did make a big moral-mistake towards brother Jalal. I have lied on him! I have accused him of threatening me when he never did. I also have fabricated the email about me deserving to get shot. I did it intentionally and knowingly. I sincerely apologize to brother Jalal for it.” Osama Abdallah. answering-christianity.com
http://www.answering-christianity.com/apology_to_brother_jalal_abualrub.htm

An ex writer for answering christianity.com has this to say:

[email protected] wrote:>Both Sami and Osama have been brutally beaten in debate by Answering Islam. We all know about what Sam Shamoun did to Osama, but what we don't know is that Christian prince also smacked around Sami and exposed him very badly,”.

[email protected] wrote:>Thus Answering Christianity has produced 3 back to back humilating losses to Answering Islam! AS OF YET.. THEY HAVE NEVER WON A DEBATE IN THEIR ENTIRE MISERABLE HISTORY!!!”.

itruth
13-03-2012, 01:08 AM
let see now , how it really is


Some teachings from Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him:

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: "When the slave of anyone amongst you prepares food for him and he serves him after having sat close to (and undergoing the hardship of) heat and smoke, he should make him (the slave) sit along with him and make him eat (along with him), and if the food seems to run short, then he should spare some portion for him (from his own share) - (another narrator) Dawud said:" i. e. a morsel or two". 4097. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Oaths (Kitab Al-Aiman), Book 015, Number 4096)"

Narrated Al-Ma'rur: "At Ar-Rabadha I met Abu Dhar who was wearing a cloak, and his slave, too, was wearing a similar one. I asked about the reason for it. He replied, "I abused a person by calling his mother with bad names." The Prophet said to me, 'O Abu Dhar! Did you abuse him by calling his mother with bad names You still have some characteristics of ignorance. Your slaves are your brothers and Allah has put them under your command. So whoever has a brother under his command should feed him of what he eats and dress him of what he wears. Do not ask them (slaves) to do things beyond their capacity (power) and if you do so, then help them.' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Belief, Volume 1, Book 2, Number 29)"

when you read this text above from Muhammed, what would you say rather servant or slave(like afro-american slave)?

Some teachings from Prophet Muhammad peace be upon him:....he serves him... Your slaves are your brothers

This is very revealing, because male slaves can cause more trouble than female slaves, so to stop a slave rebillion treat the slaves well enough just to the slave happy so that the male slave will help the islamic slave master dominate, much like the role of a black eunuch, the slave master loves this slave, this slave is the masters special pet, lives a life of luxury in some cases and the price they paid for such a position was to have their nobbs chopped off.

BUT ALSO NOTICE, there is no mention that female slaves are sisters to muslims. The female slaves are low, they get beaten, whipped, raped, shared around, etc..

itruth
13-03-2012, 01:13 AM
http://www.whatthefolly.com/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/UN-condone-homosexual-execution-graphics.jpg

It will never happen; human beings are naturally bisexual, just like most Muslim men; they just can't talk about if for fear of being stoned to death. Some people just "choose" the Gay lifestyle as they find more love there than with heterosexual partners and they "prefer" same sex partners. Being bisexual is much more "gay (i.e., it is more fun)." Perhaps that is why bisexuality is so common in the Islamic world.

Lux

http://jau.me/public/ilustraciones/jaume-d-urgell-detengan-la-ejecucion-de-gays-en-iran-durgell-stop-gay-execution.jpg

http://markhumphrys.com/Icons/adl.poster.gif
Atheists should support Israel against nations which promote Sharia Law

http://markhumphrys.com/Icons/adl.poster.2.gif
The GLBT (Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transseual) community should support Israel.

http://markhumphrys.com/Bitmaps/israel.gay.jpg

http://opinion-maker.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/05/Israel_ready_to_bomb_Iran_with_nuclear_weapons1.jp g
Those who wish to stop the spread of militant Islam should support Israel

Yeah thats real talk.

picha
13-03-2012, 01:15 AM
German Media Ignores Severe Mutilation of Teen Girl... (http://barenakedislam.com/2012/03/12/german-media-totally-ignores-the-brutal-rape-and-mutilation-of-a-16-year-old-german-girl-by-muslim-savages/)

major seven
13-03-2012, 06:10 AM
Yeah thats real talk.





Here is some "Real Talk", Wild Bill Style. :D

Islamic Mosque, Terrorist Front - YouTube


The Islamic Rage Machine - YouTube

saint_frankenstein
13-03-2012, 06:30 AM
Just to add to the discussion of homosexuality in Muslim countries:
As the Taliban is enjoying something of a resurgence in Afghanistan, foreign armies are hightailing it out of the country faster than ever. The Canadians pulled out this summer, Sweden is scheduled to leave in 2014, and ever since early November, when a rogue Afghan National Army (ANA) soldier opened fire on Australian troops, the Aussies have been ready to roll out too. When the US finally exits, it will leave the ANA to assume full control of the country, a fact that has NATO shitting bricks bigger than the hash slabs ANA use to steel themselves through firefights.

But the party doesn’t stop here: Aside from widely reported drug abuse and the ANA’s infiltration by Taliban double agents, ANA soldiers are also fond of dressing up like pretty little ladies and butt-fucking one another. One Canadian infantryman I spoke with was jarringly candid about his experience serving alongside them, and said, “Honestly, Afghan men will fuck anything. To them sucking cock is nothing. It’s like smoking pot.”

Since the 2001 invasion of Afghanistan, NATO troops have reported the curious effeminate tendencies of their “really friendly” ANA allies. Complaints vary from reinforcements consisting of a platoon full of drag queens to walking in on “Man-Love Thursdays,” weekly gay-sex parties in the barracks where the freshest recruit is essentially dolled up to be the centerpiece of a gang bang.

Catcalling is rampant. After manning howitzers all day, a Canadian artillery gunner who served in the Panjway District would walk around the base shirtless amid the whistles and wandering eyes of ANA soldiers. “They told me I should be thankful how beautiful I was. They were dead serious about how cute my ass was… fucking thanks to my army-issued short-shorts.”

By many accounts, there’s a tradition of casual homosexuality within the ANA, one surprisingly unrestrained by a strict Islamic code forbidding a limp-wristed lifestyle. Mike Luongo, editor of the collection Gay Travels in the Muslim World, told me that he once ventured into suburban Kabul in 2004 for a cruising party where all the guys in attendance had served in the ANA and bragged about their exploits killing Taliban. According to Luongo, not only has homosexuality in Afghanistan never been stigmatized as in the West, but the very idea of being queer doesn’t really exist. Instead, it’s something guys do to relieve the sexual frustrations endemic in a repressive Islamic state. Mainly, though, especially in Kandahar Province, where a tradition of homosexuality exists among the ethnic Pashtun, gaying around seems to be the sexual alternative for men who fear the risk of being caught balls deep in an unmarried girl. This is a land where vaginas can kill you. “Sleeping with a woman can end up with a very costly honor killing,” Luongo says. “There is a saying in Afghanistan: ‘Men cost gold, women cost your life.’”

I spoke with a member of the deposed Afghan royal family and powerful Mohammadzai clan, who explained, “In brotherhoods like the ANA, it’s a matter of hospitality. Satisfying your brother’s sexual needs, like a blowjob or sex, is a means of relieving his stress so he can be a better fighter.”

Whatever these bizarre gay encounters are, ass-spelunking Afghan soldiers might just be onto some next-level warrior shit. Luongo put it best at the end of our conversation: “If you look at the Afghan people, nobody has ever defeated them and men have been having sex with one another for thousands of years there. We may have gotten bin Laden, but nobody wins in Afghanistan.”
http://www.vice.com/read/guns-and-roses-0000084-v18n12

I think this is a military camaraderie model that the rest of the world should follow, if they don't already. ;)

luciferhorus
13-03-2012, 07:18 AM
Here is some "Real Talk", Wild Bill Style. :D

Islamic Mosque, Terrorist Front - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WXMmPJ15xuM&feature=relmfu)


The Islamic Rage Machine - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nm6Gnu7WL0Y&feature=related)

Well Wild Bill is one of those gun-toting (God, guns and guts) right wing Christian conservatives which we ideologocal Communists and secular (non religious) Europeans love to hate and usually love to pour ridicule and contempt upon.

Never the less, the American state terrorists / narco-terrorists, at this juncture of human history are paying less attention to their "Communist and Socialist" enemies and Latin America is slowly turning towards the moderate socialist Left, as the CIA and US military terrorists and narco-terrorists appear to be paying more attention to the Islamic enemy.

Many among the political Left of Europe and America tend to turn out to protests along with the Muslims against the onging wars of US economic imperalism in Iraq and Afghanistan, and I have done so myself many times in the past; I now consider this to be an error in revolutionary strategy.

By some (probably exaggerated) estimates, almost a quarter of the world's population is Islamic; these militant and genocidal fanatics control nations where their legal systems include elements of the barbaric Sharia Law, and they believe in a genocidal war-god who seeks total global domination and the dictatorship of an Islamic global state.

Frankly the Muslims have little chance of "converting" China, Russia, the Americas, India and many other states; but the Muslims grow mostly not by conversion, but through breeding (they breed like rabbits), and their religion mandates war against the infidels (non believers). They whom they cannot convert, they are compelled by thier diabolical religion to kill or enslave, and in an age of nuclear weapons, this is a very serious matter, since a small guerrilla army could wage war against the mightiest military powers on earth.

Islamofascism is the new Nazism.

Of course, the genocidal Bronze Age Biblical deity is just as savage as the Islamic definition of deity, and Biblical Law is just as savage and barbarian as Sharia Law, but the Christian fanatics have lost control of Europe and in America the Christian majority have very little chance of introducing Biblical Law, not that most of them would want to; in fact I doubt that most Americans even would support the first 10 Biblical Laws being reinstated, as that would have genocidal consequences for America.

Thus in the war between Islam and the West, it is an easy choice for me.

So yes, Wild Bill is right in general; Islam is not just a "religion;" it is a system of government and law; it is a militant and genocidal political philosophy which represents the antithesis of the political philosophy of the framers of the US constitution, which itself was once of the most progressive constitutions in human history when created.

We live in an imperfect world; lack of criticism towards all governments should be avoided; criticism encouraged; the dialectical process must continue, but at this juncture of history, just as the Stalinists, the Chinese, the British and Americans and others allied themselves against a common enemy in WW2, so too this seems also necessary today.

Unfortunately a primitive, barbaric, militant and genocidal enemy hellbent on world domination such as Islam is, can only be dealt with by militant and genocidal means.

I would take an even more militant view that Wild Bill; their Mosques, burn them, their nations, nuke them, their Imams behead them; their Korans, study them, for it is a work of diabolical evil produced allegedly by an illiiterate religious schizophrenic and genocidal warlord and slave trader. Study one's enemies.

So if the West takes a harsh and militant stance against the Muslims, will the military, political and economic elitis next come for the Socialists next? I doubt it; we are the majority of Europeans anyway; we are the children and family members of even the most far right of the ideological Capitalists and religionists; we are their neighbours; we are culturally as European and American as they are.

Lux


__________________


Just to add to the discussion of homosexuality in Muslim countries:

http://www.vice.com/read/guns-and-roses-0000084-v18n12

Yes I have been to Afghanistan and other Muslim nations. Afghanistan is a queer nation. Much of the Islamic world is like that. It is total hypocrisy.


Think this is a military camaraderie model that the rest of the world should follow, if they don't already. ;)

Oh yes darling.

Actually the Greeks (especially the Spartans) and Romans encouraged this kind of behaviour; when men love each other in this way, they fight better.

Make an army of European gay activists; give them weapons and send them to Iran (where they hang gay men) to fight the Revolutionary Guards (Iran's fanatical military elite); the army of gay activists probably would be merciless; I doubt if they would take prisioners, they would probably be even more fanatical in their killing spree than militant Muslims and I doubt that they would experience remorse or guilt. Or alternatively give them some pink nuclear weapons.

Lux

ciko
13-03-2012, 08:07 AM
Originally Posted by adam 7
Hmm tricky question. I'd say to live a life in a positive way.

Loving my wife has got to be high up the list

If you are saying in terms of "God". I see God as positive energy. So to increase the positive in my life and reduce the negative.

My purpose on this forum, is more straight forward, simple recreation.

i have not seen any good answer from you about what the purpose of life is:D?

selig
13-03-2012, 09:07 AM
i have not seen any good answer from you about what the purpose of life is:D?

The purpose of life is to be a slave to a despotic demon that lets you kidnap and rape women, enslave everyone else, beat your slaves and bugger young boys.

But you mustn't eat pork or you'll go to hell.:D

And if you do all that there will be 72 pre-pubescent girls in heaven for you to rape for eternity.

Isn't this the purpose of life according to Islam?

major seven
13-03-2012, 10:22 AM
Lucy
"Well Wild Bill is one of those gun-toting (God, guns and guts) right wing Christian conservatives which we ideologocal Communists and secular (non religious) Europeans love to hate and usually love to pour ridicule and contempt upon.



M7
:D
Right Lucy!

And Yet, ole Wild Bill would defend your right to SAY just that, but YET in Lucy's World, you would have Old Bill KILLED in a fuckin HEARTBEAT. LOL!!!

Cmon Luce! Fess Up!
You are just jealous cuz the muslims are taking over Your country, not to mention the REST of Europe, and your PUSSY governments ain't doing JACK to stop it. Right?

Well, Ya'll made your bed with the muslims and now You don't want to SLEEP with them too?

So what part of the Koran didn't ya'll get?

The part that says that Islam is a "Religion of Peace"?

I could be wrong, but I don't reckon that it says that anywheres specifically.

major seven
13-03-2012, 10:42 AM
:D

Jihad American Style - YouTube


YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

saint_frankenstein
13-03-2012, 10:44 AM
This can go here, too:
http://i9.photobucket.com/albums/a99/Sion6/4blasphemies.jpg

luciferhorus
13-03-2012, 11:14 AM
Lucy
"Well Wild Bill is one of those gun-toting (God, guns and guts) right wing Christian conservatives which we ideologocal Communists and secular (non religious) Europeans love to hate and usually love to pour ridicule and contempt upon.



M7
:D
Right Lucy!

And Yet, ole Wild Bill would defend your right to SAY just that, but YET in Lucy's World, you would have Old Bill KILLED in a fuckin HEARTBEAT. LOL!!!

And he would probably rather shoot European Communists like me.



Cmon Luce! Fess Up!
You are just jealous cuz the muslims are taking over Your country, not to mention the REST of Europe, and your PUSSY governments ain't doing JACK to stop it. Right?

Well, Ya'll made your bed with the muslims and now You don't want to SLEEP with them too?

So what part of the Koran didn't ya'll get?

The part that says that Islam is a "Religion of Peace"?

I could be wrong, but I don't reckon that it says that anywheres specifically.

I don't think that you actually read my entire post Major Seven; I was simply stating in the opening paragraph my contempt for Right Wing Conservative American Redneck Christians.

Nevertheless, in all seriousness I do agree with Wild Bill's views on Militant Islam.

Despite being an ideological Communist, I do share his opinion that the liberal community are taking too soft an approach to the Muslims and trying to appease them. The poilitical Left (the Communists and Socialists) need to become more radically hostile to Islamofascism.

Sometimes ad hoc (temporary and for a common purpose) allainces between enemies are necessary to fight a greater enemy.

As far as I am concerned, if the American state terrorists and the Israelis, want to nuke their way through the entire Islamic world, something I fully expect them to do in time, then they have my support. And after that, perhaps we can go back to slagging off each other's politics, and gun toting American Christian anti-Communists can go back to torturing and murdering communists in Latin America and smuggling drugs for the CIA, and I will go back to calling for Communists to be more militant and genocidal in the fight against US imperialism and narco-terroruism and against the Christian vermin.




Cmon Luce! Fess Up!
You are just jealous cuz the muslims are taking over Your country, not to mention the REST of Europe, and your PUSSY governments ain't doing JACK to stop it. Right?

Britain and Israel are nations which are full of Muslims, and yet both nations are military allies with the US in the war against Islam. I can assure you that the British and Israeli media and government is about as anti-Islamic as the US mass media and government. In Europe the French have just passed laws banning Muslim women from wearking the burkah and Europe is far more secular than America; we Europeans don't like religious fanatics; your nation is mostly comprised of them.

Lux

ciko
14-03-2012, 10:15 AM
Amazing debate about existence of God between a muslim and an atheist,;)
God - Fairy Tale or Truth? - Dr. Lars Gule VS Hamza Tzortzis - FULL DEBATE - YouTube

i think that muslim man totally crushed the atheist in this debate :D

ciko
14-03-2012, 10:21 AM
Did god die...FUNNY Ahmed Deedat... - YouTube

:D so great

major seven
14-03-2012, 10:31 AM
:D
YouTube - Broadcast Yourself.

So Great! :D

major seven
14-03-2012, 10:54 AM
Hey Ciko

This is so GREAT!

Check it out! :D

ABC TV and its 20 Errors on Islam (From "Answering Islam") [Part 1/2] - YouTube

ciko
14-03-2012, 11:16 AM
:D
YouTube - Broadcast Yourself. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jZboHNYLjrU)

So Great! :D

Allah can swear by his creations, but it is not allowed for us(humans) to swear by anything than Allah.

ciko
14-03-2012, 11:21 AM
Hey Ciko

This is so GREAT!

Check it out! :D

ABC TV and its 20 Errors on Islam (From "Answering Islam") [Part 1/2] - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVh7MlGLz7c&feature=related)

choose and pick one so called error, wich you think is hardest to explain, and put it here and i will explain it to you ;)


IF THE WHOLE WORLD JOINED TOGHETER TO FIND ERROR IN QURAN THEY WILL NOT FIND IT, EVEN I CAN EXPLAIN EVERY SO CALLED ERROR YOU MAY PUT HERE ON THIS FORUM, NOT TO TALK ABOUT ISLAMIC SCHOLARS

selig
14-03-2012, 11:50 AM
i think that muslim man totally crushed the atheist in this debate :D

It's a shame you couldn't do the same.:D

At 3 hours long I'm afraid I'm going to have to take your word for it, not that your word means much any more.

major seven
14-03-2012, 11:51 AM
You should get a kick out of this one.

Muslim Threatens Christians for Speaking about Muhammad - YouTube



And AS Always

No Soup For You - YouTube

:D

major seven
14-03-2012, 11:55 AM
Allah can swear by his creations, but it is not allowed for us(humans) to swear by anything than Allah.



Is this a quote from Ciko's new book, "How To Make Excuses For Islam For Dhimmis"?

Coming soon to a bookstore near you.

:)

selig
14-03-2012, 11:58 AM
Burn a Quran with Bacon - YouTube

luciferhorus
14-03-2012, 12:24 PM
Hey Ciko

This is so GREAT!

Check it out! :D

ABC TV and its 20 Errors on Islam (From "Answering Islam") [Part 1/2] - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVh7MlGLz7c&feature=related)

yes.

http://www.middle-east-info.org/gateway/islamvsinfidels/IslamicHolyWar.jpg

Rivers of blood shall flow; but unfortunately this is "Islam vs. the West. It is kill or be killed; it is dominate or be dominated.

The current Capitalist system is flawed (as all economic systems have been in the past) and imperfect. And the idea of a global New World Order (i.e., the International Dictatorship of Captialism) if established will probably also be flawed. However the proponents of global Capitalism, gangster Capitalists that they are, are a far far better ally than militant Islam.

If the Muslims are given too much time to prepare and develop weapons of mass destrution, they will almost certainly use them.

At the end of this "Islam vs. the West" war, I expect the West to win. And by "Islam vs. the West" I include Israel as the West, as it is a colony of Europeans and I would even include the Chinese and Japanese as they are also entwined with the Western Capitalist system.

It is far more even than Islam vs. the West; it is Islam versus the rest of non-Islamic humankind.

The Muslims will lose; they must lose.

Lucifer
Fire, plague and poisoned waters.

http://www.motifake.com/image/demotivational-poster/small/0910/irony-irony-free-speech-islam-demotivational-poster-1255041474.jpg
http://www.filehurricane.com/viewerthumbnails/814200845158PM_jihadbait2aa3.jpg

tsafirkamel
14-03-2012, 12:55 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-7Ri3-31Lc&context=C48bd85dADvjVQa1PpcFNlhOkU-I9Za_6YFgA4bBnu2Y6UrT777J0=

I made a video for this thread.

picha
14-03-2012, 12:56 PM
Amazing debate about existence of God between a muslim and an atheist,;)
God - Fairy Tale or Truth? - Dr. Lars Gule VS Hamza Tzortzis - FULL DEBATE - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uSI4LyIlNIQ)

i think that muslim man totally crushed the atheist in this debate :D

Even if it does exist then it still doesn't prove Islam is from Gog - and from his first few sentences he was using circular reasoning so I dont think im going to bother investing over 2 hours of my like in that video.

luciferhorus
14-03-2012, 01:25 PM
Even if it does exist then it still doesn't prove Islam is from Gog - .

Even if it were possible to establish that Islam and the Bible faiths were drived from a being called "Gog (sic)" then the definition of this being called "Gog(sic)," based on the texts of the Bible and the Koran, could still be defined as (In Richard Dawkin's words), arguably the most unpleasant character in all fiction: jealous and proud of it; a petty, unjust, unforgiving control-freak; a vindictive, bloodthirsty ethnic cleanser; a misogynistic, homophobic, racist, infanticidal, genocidal, filicidal, pestilential, megalomaniacal, sadomasochistic, capriciously malevolent bully.” –

http://rlv.zcache.co.uk/the_god_of_the_old_testament_tshirt-p235008901160918646z89ss_400.jpg

The "Gog(sic)" of the Bible and the ""Gog" of the Koran are remarkably similar to me; they are both defined in their texts as, in my judgement, subhuman, genocidally insane maniacs. This probably explains why their followers exhibit a similar nature.

Lux

ciko
14-03-2012, 06:06 PM
we continue with science in quran..

Islamic miracles about animal cloning, biology and embriology - YouTube

Scientific miracle in Quran about frozen shadows - YouTube

The Fly's Digestive Miracle - Mentioned in the Holy Quran and Confirmed by Science!

God says:

[022:073] O mankind! A similitude is coined, so pay ye heed to it: Lo! those on whom ye call beside Allah will never create a fly though they combine together for the purpose. And if the fly took something from them, they could not rescue it from it. So weak are (both) the seeker and the sought!

Throughout the Noble Quran, Allah Almighty used Parables. The subjects in the parable were chosen for a purpose. They weren't just mentioned by a chance.

Similarly, Allah Almighty in Noble Verse 22:73 had a Divine Wisdom and Purpose for using the fly and the impossibility of us getting the food particle back after it snatches it away. How is this so? The following section explains this in great details.


2- The Scientific Proofs:

Science has proven that flies digest their food before they eat it. They literally vomit digestive and dissolving substances on the food particle to dissolve it whole into liquid and then they suck it all in. So yes, it is absolutely true that once the fly successfully takes away a food particle from us, we absolutely can not bring that food particle back from it, because it had already been digested and dissolved by the fly before the latter even took off.

http://www.answering-christianity.com/1060888-lg.jpg

Article #1:

"Flies cannot chew. They have to suck up their food....When a housefly lands on our food, it vomits on the food. The digestive juices, enzymes, and saliva in the vomit begin to break down and dissolve the food. The fly can then suck up the liquid food with its sponge-like mouth parts and its proboscis. I have no connection with this site where the information is posted: http://www.uen.org/utahlink/activities/view_activity.cgi?activity_id=1026


Article #2:

"The second step can be compared to what happens when you add hot water to instant oatmeal -- only instead of hot water, the housefly adds a mixture of saliva and digestive juices. The fly vomits saliva and digestive material onto its meal, and after a few seconds pass for the juices to break down the food, the fly sucks everything back up." ."
http://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/life/zoology/insects-arachnids/housefly3.htm

The Quran's Miracle is Confirmed!

There is no question that the food particles that are taken away by the fly can not be brought back from it! They would've been dissolved and digested even before the fly takes off.


3- Conclusion:

Again, the Holy Quran and Islam are filled with scientific statements and notions. These are statements of Allah Almighty describing how He created things on earth and in the Universe. What's most amazing is that all of these scientific statements and notions had been proven to be in perfect agreement with science and our modern-day scientific discoveries. Allah Almighty made the Noble Quran be Prophet Muhammad's (peace be upon him) Everlasting Divine Miracle and proof for Prophethood. The Holy Book certainly stood the test of time 1,500 years ago with Its Claims, Prophecies and Miraculous language eloquence, and it does again and again in our day today with Its overwhelming agreement with science and discoveries that were not known to man 1,500 years ago.

Allah Almighty's Parable about the impossibility of bringing back the food particles that the fly took away is indeed proven to be a Divine Miracle from Allah Almighty.

The Holy Quran, again and again, have proven Itself to be the True Divine Holy Book from Allah Almighty. Indeed, all Praise and Glory are due to Allah Almighty Alone for making the Noble Quran and the Divine Inspirations that He Sent to Prophet Muhammad be the Perfect and Everlasting Miracle, for us humans, out of all of His Divine Miracles! And may Allah Almighty send His Peace, Mercy and Blessings upon our Beloved and Blessed Prophet, Teacher and Role Model, Muhammad. Ameen.


Allah Almighty Said: "We will show them Our signs in the Universe and inside their selves, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth. Is it not sufficient as regards your Lord that He is a witness over all things? (The Noble Quran, 41:53)"

picha
14-03-2012, 06:38 PM
we continue with science in quran..

Islamic miracles about animal cloning, biology and embriology - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CH6o3sPr_k)

Scientific miracle in Quran about frozen shadows - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fscnqu7p00U)

The Fly's Digestive Miracle - Mentioned in the Holy Quran and Confirmed by Science!

God says:

[022:073] O mankind! A similitude is coined, so pay ye heed to it: Lo! those on whom ye call beside Allah will never create a fly though they combine together for the purpose. And if the fly took something from them, they could not rescue it from it. So weak are (both) the seeker and the sought!

Throughout the Noble Quran, Allah Almighty used Parables. The subjects in the parable were chosen for a purpose. They weren't just mentioned by a chance.

Similarly, Allah Almighty in Noble Verse 22:73 had a Divine Wisdom and Purpose for using the fly and the impossibility of us getting the food particle back after it snatches it away. How is this so? The following section explains this in great details.


2- The Scientific Proofs:

Science has proven that flies digest their food before they eat it. They literally vomit digestive and dissolving substances on the food particle to dissolve it whole into liquid and then they suck it all in. So yes, it is absolutely true that once the fly successfully takes away a food particle from us, we absolutely can not bring that food particle back from it, because it had already been digested and dissolved by the fly before the latter even took off.

http://www.answering-christianity.com/1060888-lg.jpg

Article #1:

"Flies cannot chew. They have to suck up their food....When a housefly lands on our food, it vomits on the food. The digestive juices, enzymes, and saliva in the vomit begin to break down and dissolve the food. The fly can then suck up the liquid food with its sponge-like mouth parts and its proboscis. I have no connection with this site where the information is posted: http://www.uen.org/utahlink/activities/view_activity.cgi?activity_id=1026


Article #2:

"The second step can be compared to what happens when you add hot water to instant oatmeal -- only instead of hot water, the housefly adds a mixture of saliva and digestive juices. The fly vomits saliva and digestive material onto its meal, and after a few seconds pass for the juices to break down the food, the fly sucks everything back up." ."
http://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/life/zoology/insects-arachnids/housefly3.htm

The Quran's Miracle is Confirmed!

There is no question that the food particles that are taken away by the fly can not be brought back from it! They would've been dissolved and digested even before the fly takes off.


3- Conclusion:

Again, the Holy Quran and Islam are filled with scientific statements and notions. These are statements of Allah Almighty describing how He created things on earth and in the Universe. What's most amazing is that all of these scientific statements and notions had been proven to be in perfect agreement with science and our modern-day scientific discoveries. Allah Almighty made the Noble Quran be Prophet Muhammad's (peace be upon him) Everlasting Divine Miracle and proof for Prophethood. The Holy Book certainly stood the test of time 1,500 years ago with Its Claims, Prophecies and Miraculous language eloquence, and it does again and again in our day today with Its overwhelming agreement with science and discoveries that were not known to man 1,500 years ago.

Allah Almighty's Parable about the impossibility of bringing back the food particles that the fly took away is indeed proven to be a Divine Miracle from Allah Almighty.

The Holy Quran, again and again, have proven Itself to be the True Divine Holy Book from Allah Almighty. Indeed, all Praise and Glory are due to Allah Almighty Alone for making the Noble Quran and the Divine Inspirations that He Sent to Prophet Muhammad be the Perfect and Everlasting Miracle, for us humans, out of all of His Divine Miracles! And may Allah Almighty send His Peace, Mercy and Blessings upon our Beloved and Blessed Prophet, Teacher and Role Model, Muhammad. Ameen.


Allah Almighty Said: "We will show them Our signs in the Universe and inside their selves, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth. Is it not sufficient as regards your Lord that He is a witness over all things? (The Noble Quran, 41:53)"

There is no science in the quran. Where are the descriptions of the experiments and the results analysis? There are just some old incorrect hypothesis twisted to try and fit modern hypothesis.

ciko
14-03-2012, 06:53 PM
There is no science in the quran. Where are the descriptions of the experiments and the results analysis? There are just some old incorrect hypothesis twisted to try and fit modern hypothesis.

even tough i post scientific text to confirm the quranic text, you people still dont believe, that is what God calls in quran, BLINDNESS


God says in quran about your blindness:

2:171 And the example of those who disbelieve is like one who repeats what he has heard of calls and shouts; deaf, dumb, and blind, they do not understand.

14:1 This is a Scripture which We have sent down to you [Prophet] so that, with their Lord’s permission, you may bring people from the depths of darkness into light, to the path of the Almighty, the Praiseworthy One,

2. God, to whom everything in the heavens and earth belongs. How terrible will be the torment of those who ignore [Him],

3. those who prefer the life of this world over the life to come, who turn others from God’s way, trying to make it crooked: such people have gone far astray.

vooei
14-03-2012, 08:49 PM
There is no science in the quran. Where are the descriptions of the experiments and the results analysis? There are just some old incorrect hypothesis twisted to try and fit modern hypothesis.

Fact. It's Bucaillism nonsense that has no credibility what so ever.

major seven
14-03-2012, 10:24 PM
luciferhorus
"And he would probably rather shoot European Communists like me."





M7
LOL!!!
Ayup!! I reckon he might at that.

Especially Anarchy Commies with weird ass sex fetishes. :D

But Nah!
Any Conservative, Christian or otherwise, thats big on maintaining our constitutional rights as old Wild Bill here does, has to be pragmatic and concede that folks such as yourself, Muslims and The NAKED Butt People, have to allow their opinions heard, whether or not he much likes what ya'll are saying.

But then again who can say WHAT might happen if you happen to wake up one day to see this outside your front door.

ESPECIALLY folks like Wild Bill. :D

Read
www.aish.com/ci/s/Imposing_Shariah_Law_in_London.html

HOUSTON!!!! We Have a PROBLEM!!!

Right!





Lucy
I don't think that you actually read my entire post Major Seven; I was simply stating in the opening paragraph my contempt for Right Wing Conservative American Redneck Christians.






M7
Yeah I did! Just didn't have time to do any research on it.

And Yeah! When I saw some of Wild Bill's videos, I said to myself,

"HEY! I'll bet Lucy and the NAKED Butt People and the Muslims will LOVE this guy." :D

"We don't put our women in Burkas! We put them in F15s and send them after you guys." (Wild Bill)

"God Bless The USA.....Again" (Wild Bill)

LOL!!!






Lucy
Nevertheless, in all seriousness I do agree with Wild Bill's views on Militant Islam.

Despite being an ideological Communist, I do share his opinion that the liberal community are taking too soft an approach to the Muslims and trying to appease them. The poilitical Left (the Communists and Socialists) need to become more radically hostile to Islamofascism.

Sometimes ad hoc (temporary and for a common purpose) allainces between enemies are necessary to fight a greater enemy.

As far as I am concerned, if the American state terrorists and the Israelis, want to nuke their way through the entire Islamic world, something I fully expect them to do in time, then they have my support. And after that, perhaps we can go back to slagging off each other's politics, and gun toting American Christian anti-Communists can go back to torturing and murdering communists in Latin America and smuggling drugs for the CIA, and I will go back to calling for Communists to be more militant and genocidal in the fight against US imperialism and narco-terroruism and against the Christian vermin.






M7
Right!
Good to see you can agree on something with a "Gun Totin Right Wing Conservative American Redneck Christian"






Lucy
Britain and Israel are nations which are full of Muslims, and yet both nations are military allies with the US in the war against Islam. I can assure you that the British and Israeli media and government is about as anti-Islamic as the US mass media and government. In Europe the French have just passed laws banning Muslim women from wearking the burkah and Europe is far more secular than America; we Europeans don't like religious fanatics; your nation is mostly comprised of them.





M7
So when are you Brits going to put that phony Sharia spouting loudmouth muslim Anjem Choudary onto a Slow boat with a LARGE leak and send him off toward Somalia or Yemen or some such fucked up Sharia ruled country.

Oh Yeah! Thats right! You guys sort of have the same Freedom of Speech thing too, Eh?

Granted, the Sharia crap that is going on is still low end Civil case bullshit like divorce and such and I can't say as if anybody can do a whole lot with cultural based garbage like "Honour Killings".

Nonetheless, its still a tiny step for muslims toward their ultimate goal, Right?

And its just lovely that the French saw fit to ban Burkas and face veils, but you did happen the notice the Fall Out, Right?

And how many women got the crap beat out of them for compliance?

Yeah! That went well, Eh What?

So are you Brits really being Tolerant in letting the muslims do their Thing short of carving off body parts in the name of Allah?

Or are you just Paranoid of starting a Danish Cartoon type incident with Morons like Choudary waving the Islamic flag in your face?


So tell me why this CLOWN is still running around?

Cmon you Brits!

Time to COWBOY UP!

Sean Hannity v's Pious Muslim Imam Anjem Choudary - YouTube

Don't miss at least the last 5 minutes.

:D

luciferhorus
14-03-2012, 11:21 PM
luciferhorus
"And he would probably rather shoot European Communists like me."





M7
LOL!!!
Ayup!! I reckon he might at that.

Especially Anarchy Commies with weird ass sex fetishes. :D

There is nothing "wierd" about what I do, by American standards.

http://blog.reidreport.com/uploaded_images/abu-ghraib-leash-715453.jpg

You Amercians like to torture and sexually assault your Islamic victims before you kill them.

http://extreme-forum.3878313.n2.nabble.com/file/n6757793/snapshot20110902110534.jpg

I only practice BDSM with consenting adults; if I collar and chain anyone and fuck them, it is because they want me to; and I expect them to thank me and love me; it is all about mutual erotic pleasure really or nobody would ever consent to that; that is more than I can say for the way the Americans treat their Muslim POW's.

Just adding some erotic photos to outrage our Muslim contributors. I am sure you'll understand.





But Nah!
Any Conservative, Christian or otherwise, thats big on maintaining our constitutional rights as old Wild Bill here does, has to be pragmatic and concede that folks such as yourself, Muslims and The NAKED Butt People, have to allow their opinions heard, whether or not he much likes what ya'll are saying.

But then again who can say WHAT might happen if you happen to wake up one day to see this outside your front door.

ESPECIALLY folks like Wild Bill. :D

Read
www.aish.com/ci/s/Imposing_Shariah_Law_in_London.html

HOUSTON!!!! We Have a PROBLEM!!!

Right!



Yes I read that article, however I have lived in London for almost 20 years of my life and I am living here at the moment, and I can tell you that certain areas of London are frequented by Muslms because there are a lot of Muslims there and they feel safe there; elsewhere they are in danger of getting attacked by Londoners.

Frankly London is a very tolerant city and cosmopolitan city; however the mood is turning against Islam as people in the UK begin to see just how intolerant they are. There have been a number of major network television documentaries on just how extreme the Muslims are including some where they took secret cameras inside Mosques. The Muslims are usually civil and polite in public, but in private we are just kaffirs . indifels and they speak about the citizens of thier host nation as if we are subhuman.

http://de-motivational.com/albums/userpics2/normal_Islam.jpg

Frankly it was once mostly the far political Right which was anti-Islamic; the Liberals and the Left have always been atni-religious but also pro-tolerance; however this mood is changing. The mass media also generally identifies Islamofascism as something extemely malevolent; it is simply that our legal system is a very tolerant one, and so everyone from the Communists to the Neo-Nazis has a great amount of freedom of speech, and the Muslims are takling advantage of that.


Lucy
I don't think that you actually read my entire post Major Seven; I was simply stating in the opening paragraph my contempt for Right Wing Conservative American Redneck Christians.






M7
Yeah I did! Just didn't have time to do any research on it.

And Yeah! When I saw some of Wild Bill's videos, I said to myself,

"HEY! I'll bet Lucy and the NAKED Butt People and the Muslims will LOVE this guy." :D



http://mypetjawa.mu.nu/archives/Iranhangings0303.jpg

The militant evil, incitations to holy war, homophobia, pro-slavery laws and laws demanding the death of "heretics" which you find in the Koran you can find in the Bible; thus by identifying himself as a Christian, it seems to me that Wild Bill's god is just as diabolically evil as the Muslim's god; but European and American culture are far more similar than Islamic culture; and thus we Europeans have much more in common with even the Wild Bill's of America, who probably don't really want to follow the laws of their bible god and start stoning people to death, just because the Bible says so

With regards to "NAKED Butt People" don't you like your women naked and fully equipped with an ass, or do you prefer your women fully clothed and with their asses surgically removed? We could pioneer a new porn genre for Americans with fully clothed women with no asses, but I don't think it would work.

You might be a homophobic smart ass bitch, but I suspect that if you were an American in a bar in London, that you would treat me in a civil manner and that you would rather buy me a beer and talk to me than hang me or stone me to death, and the feeling would be mutual; that is the advantage of having been raised in a tolerant society; that is not the case in the Muslim world where they would probably want to behead both of us.

Anyway, you have Americans have gays in the US military; they probably hate the Muslims more than the straight guys (not that I believe that "anyone" is 100% straight, whatever they say). If the US military changed their policy and "only" allowed gay, lesbian, bisexul and transsexuals into the military, you would have a real pack dog of angry bitches would would slaughter Muslims without remorse; you don't even need big macho guys anymore; some little queer guy with an M16 would suffice.

"We don't put our women in Burkas! We put them in F15s and send them after you guys." (Wild Bill)

"God Bless The USA.....Again" (Wild Bill)

LOL!!!

Like all many US Christians Wild Bill probably likes his women slutty, naked and soaked in Jack Daniels; that my be hypocritical for a Christian, but popular American Christianity is anyway utterly hypocritical and thankfully so; whereas in nations under Sharia Law they take their religion very seriously and one can still be executed for religious crimes which Europeans were once executed for under the primitive Biblical law.






Lucy
Nevertheless, in all seriousness I do agree with Wild Bill's views on Militant Islam.

Despite being an ideological Communist, I do share his opinion that the liberal community are taking too soft an approach to the Muslims and trying to appease them. The poilitical Left (the Communists and Socialists) need to become more radically hostile to Islamofascism.

Sometimes ad hoc (temporary and for a common purpose) allainces between enemies are necessary to fight a greater enemy.

As far as I am concerned, if the American state terrorists and the Israelis, want to nuke their way through the entire Islamic world, something I fully expect them to do in time, then they have my support. And after that, perhaps we can go back to slagging off each other's politics, and gun toting American Christian anti-Communists can go back to torturing and murdering communists in Latin America and smuggling drugs for the CIA, and I will go back to calling for Communists to be more militant and genocidal in the fight against US imperialism and narco-terroruism and against the Christian vermin.






M7
Right!
Good to see you can agree on something with a "Gun Totin Right Wing Conservative American Redneck Christian"



I lived in the US for 5 years in the 1980's and I travelled around a lot and I did not like the Bible Belt (I was mostly in New Jersey) but Wild Bill and his kind are far more culturally similar to we Europeans than the Muslims; we are all 21st century people; I could still have a beer with rednecks in Missisipi and they would all be kind to me and generally Americans don't really consider Europeans to be "aliens" or foreigners but "family;" having a Scottish accent in the US made me very popular with Americans; it is not quite the same thing as having a Mexican or Arabic accent; it was usually "Yo love the accent."

Our politics divides us but our modern culture and ancestry bind us; but the Muslims are medieval. A lot of Americans might be homophobic and intolerant to a degree, but not to the extent that they are with the Muslims; after all the are bombing the Muslims and they hate them with genocidal passion, and unfortunately I have come to the conclusion that violence is the only way to deal with militant Islam; it is the only thing they understand.






Lucy
Britain and Israel are nations which are full of Muslims, and yet both nations are military allies with the US in the war against Islam. I can assure you that the British and Israeli media and government is about as anti-Islamic as the US mass media and government. In Europe the French have just passed laws banning Muslim women from wearking the burkah and Europe is far more secular than America; we Europeans don't like religious fanatics; your nation is mostly comprised of them.





M7
So when are you Brits going to put that phony Sharia spouting loudmouth muslim Anjem Choudary onto a Slow boat with a LARGE leak and send him off toward Somalia or Yemen or some such fucked up Sharia ruled country.

Oh Yeah! Thats right! You guys sort of have the same Freedom of Speech thing too, Eh?

Probably the vast majority of decent, peaceful, respectible British people would have him shot.

However this is a very tolerant nation , the police and the courts thankfully have limited powers; they cannot just arrest all political militants or they wold have to arrest every right wing football hooligan and all the Communists and Socialists; almost all political parties are non pacifist anyway. If the police could arrest anyone distributing militant literature, they would probably have to close down the Church of England's publishing department and arrest them for disseminating hate writings (i.e., the Bible.)


Granted, the Sharia crap that is going on is still low end Civil case bullshit like divorce and such and I can't say as if anybody can do a whole lot with cultural based garbage like "Honour Killings".

Nonetheless, its still a tiny step for muslims toward their ultimate goal, Right?

And its just lovely that the French saw fit to ban Burkas and face veils, but you did happen the notice the Fall Out, Right?

And how many women got the crap beat out of them for compliance?

Yeah! That went well, Eh What?

So are you Brits really being Tolerant in letting the muslims do their Thing short of carving off body parts in the name of Allah?



If any Muslim tried to impose Sharia Law in Britain and it could be proven, they would be arrested; one cannot legally stone people to death for religious crimes here.



Or are you just Paranoid of starting a Danish Cartoon type incident with Morons like Choudary waving the Islamic flag in your face?



http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_4s5pmFL_ZlQ/SGfIpyVCJZI/AAAAAAAAAtM/fnMCOTeNA-Y/s1600/muslim%2Bwomen%2Bwww.motivationalpostersonline.blo gspot.com%2Bdemotivational%2Bposters%2Bmotivationa l%2Bposter%2Bfunny.jpg

The Dutch cartoons were nothing in comparison to the kind of Islamic hatred displayed in the British Press these days; and that is mild in comparison to the anti-Islamic sites on the Internet.


So tell me why this CLOWN is still running around?

Cmon you Brits!

Time to COWBOY UP!

Sean Hannity v's Pious Muslim Imam Anjem Choudary - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0ruP76lyZto&feature=related)

Don't miss at least the last 5 minutes.

:D

I don't want to live in a police state where the police can just do what they like; there is a due process for people like the radical Muslims which applies to me also; however it is a tinderbox; if the Muslims retaliate against the British in our homeland, the situation will change.

If World War Three, which seems to be Islam v. the West really kicks off and goes nuclear, the problem will not be the minority of British Muslims; they will have to flee the rough justice from the British whose tolerance levels will decline; the problem is that by some estimates almost a quarter of the world's population are Islamic to some degree; there lies the problem.

Lux

h2pogo
15-03-2012, 12:46 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-7Ri3-31Lc&context=C48bd85dADvjVQa1PpcFNlhOkU-I9Za_6YFgA4bBnu2Y6UrT777J0=

I made a video for this thread.

Well said..
BTW whats a hewn down goat?

itruth
15-03-2012, 06:21 AM
we continue with science in quran..

Islamic miracles about animal cloning, biology and embriology - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8CH6o3sPr_k)

Scientific miracle in Quran about frozen shadows - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Fscnqu7p00U)

The Fly's Digestive Miracle - Mentioned in the Holy Quran and Confirmed by Science!

God says:

[022:073] O mankind! A similitude is coined, so pay ye heed to it: Lo! those on whom ye call beside Allah will never create a fly though they combine together for the purpose. And if the fly took something from them, they could not rescue it from it. So weak are (both) the seeker and the sought!

Throughout the Noble Quran, Allah Almighty used Parables. The subjects in the parable were chosen for a purpose. They weren't just mentioned by a chance.

Similarly, Allah Almighty in Noble Verse 22:73 had a Divine Wisdom and Purpose for using the fly and the impossibility of us getting the food particle back after it snatches it away. How is this so? The following section explains this in great details.


2- The Scientific Proofs:

Science has proven that flies digest their food before they eat it. They literally vomit digestive and dissolving substances on the food particle to dissolve it whole into liquid and then they suck it all in. So yes, it is absolutely true that once the fly successfully takes away a food particle from us, we absolutely can not bring that food particle back from it, because it had already been digested and dissolved by the fly before the latter even took off.

http://www.answering-christianity.com/1060888-lg.jpg

Article #1:

"Flies cannot chew. They have to suck up their food....When a housefly lands on our food, it vomits on the food. The digestive juices, enzymes, and saliva in the vomit begin to break down and dissolve the food. The fly can then suck up the liquid food with its sponge-like mouth parts and its proboscis. I have no connection with this site where the information is posted: http://www.uen.org/utahlink/activities/view_activity.cgi?activity_id=1026


Article #2:

"The second step can be compared to what happens when you add hot water to instant oatmeal -- only instead of hot water, the housefly adds a mixture of saliva and digestive juices. The fly vomits saliva and digestive material onto its meal, and after a few seconds pass for the juices to break down the food, the fly sucks everything back up." ."
http://science.howstuffworks.com/environmental/life/zoology/insects-arachnids/housefly3.htm

The Quran's Miracle is Confirmed!

There is no question that the food particles that are taken away by the fly can not be brought back from it! They would've been dissolved and digested even before the fly takes off.


3- Conclusion:

Again, the Holy Quran and Islam are filled with scientific statements and notions. These are statements of Allah Almighty describing how He created things on earth and in the Universe. What's most amazing is that all of these scientific statements and notions had been proven to be in perfect agreement with science and our modern-day scientific discoveries. Allah Almighty made the Noble Quran be Prophet Muhammad's (peace be upon him) Everlasting Divine Miracle and proof for Prophethood. The Holy Book certainly stood the test of time 1,500 years ago with Its Claims, Prophecies and Miraculous language eloquence, and it does again and again in our day today with Its overwhelming agreement with science and discoveries that were not known to man 1,500 years ago.

Allah Almighty's Parable about the impossibility of bringing back the food particles that the fly took away is indeed proven to be a Divine Miracle from Allah Almighty.

The Holy Quran, again and again, have proven Itself to be the True Divine Holy Book from Allah Almighty. Indeed, all Praise and Glory are due to Allah Almighty Alone for making the Noble Quran and the Divine Inspirations that He Sent to Prophet Muhammad be the Perfect and Everlasting Miracle, for us humans, out of all of His Divine Miracles! And may Allah Almighty send His Peace, Mercy and Blessings upon our Beloved and Blessed Prophet, Teacher and Role Model, Muhammad. Ameen.


Allah Almighty Said: "We will show them Our signs in the Universe and inside their selves, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth. Is it not sufficient as regards your Lord that He is a witness over all things? (The Noble Quran, 41:53)"

Typical, a muslim getting excited because he has been told koran says flys have digestive systems, lol.


[022:073] O mankind! A similitude is coined, so pay ye heed to it: Lo! those on whom ye call beside Allah will never create a fly though they combine together for the purpose. And if the fly took something from them, they could not rescue it from it. So weak are (both) the seeker and the sought!



The verse is talking about idols being unable to do anything.

This meaning can clearly be seen in THREE MAJOR TAFSIRS;


Tafsir Ibn kathir:
(And if the fly snatches away a thing from them, they will have no power to release it from the fly.) They are unable to create a single fly and, moreover, they are unable to resist it or take revenge against it if it were to take anything from the good and perfumed thing on which it lands. http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2486&Itemid=77

So here ibn kathir says IDOLS cannot even resist flies or take ravenge upon them. What is meant is that IDOLS cannot even handle flies. The IDOLS cannot stop flies landing on their food, nor can they take revenge on flies once it lands on their food, rofl. Notice Ibn kathir makes no mention of any digestive system, which shows that the muslims NEVER believed the koranic verse is talking about a flies digestive system. And if ciko does claim that the verse is talking about a flies digestive system they would be creating another problem for koran, because the koran claims itself to be a clear book, but if the scholars of islam in history and nearer to the time of muhummad had the wrong understanding of the koran, then there is no way that the koran can be a clear book as it claims to be and that would be another koran contridiction.



Tafsir al jalalayn:
O mankind, that is to say, [O] people of Mecca, a similitude is being struck, so listen to it, and it is that: truly those on whom you call, [whom] you worship, besides God, that is, other than Him, and these are the idols, will never create a fly (dhubāb is a generic noun, the singular of which is dhubāba, for both the masculine and the feminine) even if they rallied together to do so, to create it. And if a fly should take away something from them, [such as a drop] of the scents or the saffron in which they drench themselves, they would not be able to recover that from it, because of their [complete] incapacity:, http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=22&tAyahNo=73&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2

"FROM THEM" = FROM IDOLS.

"in which they drench themselves". TAFSIR AL JALALAYN.

Clearly, al jalalayn understands this verse to mean that idols cannot take stuff back from even a fly[/B].

In the tafsir of ibn abbas below tells us EXACTLY what was meant by the verse. Ibn abbas is the only man whom muhummad actually prayed to his god allah and asked allah to "teach ibn abbas the koran".

This is what Ibn abbas says about the fly verse:

TAFSIR IBN ABBAS:
(O mankind!) He means the people of Mecca. (A similitude is coined) He has explained the likeness of your deities, (so pay ye heed to it) and respond: (Lo! those on whom ye call beside Allah) of idols (will never create a fly) they will never be able to create a fly (though they) the worshipped and the worshippers (combine together for the purpose) they will not be able to create a fly. (And if the fly took something) like honey with which are sullied for example (from them) from the deities, (they could not rescue it from it) the deities would not be able to take it back from the fly. (So weak are (both) the seeker) i.e. the deity (and the sought) and the fly!

"if the fly took something from the deities.. the deities would not be able to take it back from the fly".

The verse meaning is now pretty clear. This is why NONE of the tafsirs say the verse is talking about a flies digestive system.

(They have not regarded Allah with His rightful esteem.) meaning, they have not recognized the might and power of Allah when they wor- ship alongside Him those who cannot even ward off a fly, because they are so weak and incapable. TAFSIR OF IBN KATHIR. http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2486&Itemid=77

SO THE VERSE IT TALKING ABOUT IDOLS THAT CANNOT TAKE BACK SOMETHING TAKEN FROM THEM BY A FLY.

If a gift for a god, like "saffron, honey," etc.. is smothered by flies, the idol cannot stop the flies nor can the idol recover anything the fly has taken from the idols offerings.


READ CAREFULLY, THE MEANING IS VERY CLEAR:

TAFSIR OF IBN KATHIR:
(Verily, those on whom you call besides Allah, cannot create a fly, even though they combine together for the purpose.) Even if all the idols and false gods whom you worship were to come together to create a single fly, they would not be able to do that. Imam Ahmad recorded that Abu Hurayrah recorded the Marfu` report:

(And if the fly snatches away a thing from them, they will have no power to release it from the fly.)

THE "THEM" IS TALKING ABOUT IDOLS, so off course idols cannot take back things from even a fly, lol.

THIS IS THE ONLY MEANING FOR THE VERSE AS CLEARLY UNDERSTOOD BY THE CLASSIC ISLAMIC SCHOLARS LIKE IBN ABBAS.

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: The Prophet embraced me and said, "O Allah! Teach him (the knowledge of) the Book (Quran). Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 92, Number 375: … http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/092.sbt.html#009.092.375

I think that cleared things up.

ciko
15-03-2012, 07:28 AM
Typical, a muslim getting excited because he has been told koran says flys have digestive systems, lol.






The verse is talking about idols being unable to do anything.

This meaning can clearly be seen in THREE MAJOR TAFSIRS;


Tafsir Ibn kathir:
(And if the fly snatches away a thing from them, they will have no power to release it from the fly.) They are unable to create a single fly and, moreover, they are unable to resist it or take revenge against it if it were to take anything from the good and perfumed thing on which it lands. http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2486&Itemid=77

So here ibn kathir says IDOLS cannot even resist flies or take ravenge upon them. What is meant is that IDOLS cannot even handle flies. The IDOLS cannot stop flies landing on their food, nor can they take revenge on flies once it lands on their food, rofl. Notice Ibn kathir makes no mention of any digestive system, which shows that the muslims NEVER believed the koranic verse is talking about a flies digestive system. And if ciko does claim that the verse is talking about a flies digestive system they would be creating another problem for koran, because the koran claims itself to be a clear book, but if the scholars of islam in history and nearer to the time of muhummad had the wrong understanding of the koran, then there is no way that the koran can be a clear book as it claims to be and that would be another koran contridiction.



Tafsir al jalalayn:
O mankind, that is to say, [O] people of Mecca, a similitude is being struck, so listen to it, and it is that: truly those on whom you call, [whom] you worship, besides God, that is, other than Him, and these are the idols, will never create a fly (dhubāb is a generic noun, the singular of which is dhubāba, for both the masculine and the feminine) even if they rallied together to do so, to create it. And if a fly should take away something from them, [such as a drop] of the scents or the saffron in which they drench themselves, they would not be able to recover that from it, because of their [complete] incapacity:, http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=22&tAyahNo=73&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2

"FROM THEM" = FROM IDOLS.

"in which they drench themselves". TAFSIR AL JALALAYN.

Clearly, al jalalayn understands this verse to mean that idols cannot take stuff back from even a fly[/B].

In the tafsir of ibn abbas below tells us EXACTLY what was meant by the verse. Ibn abbas is the only man whom muhummad actually prayed to his god allah and asked allah to "teach ibn abbas the koran".

This is what Ibn abbas says about the fly verse:

TAFSIR IBN ABBAS:
(O mankind!) He means the people of Mecca. (A similitude is coined) He has explained the likeness of your deities, (so pay ye heed to it) and respond: (Lo! those on whom ye call beside Allah) of idols (will never create a fly) they will never be able to create a fly (though they) the worshipped and the worshippers (combine together for the purpose) they will not be able to create a fly. (And if the fly took something) like honey with which are sullied for example (from them) from the deities, (they could not rescue it from it) the deities would not be able to take it back from the fly. (So weak are (both) the seeker) i.e. the deity (and the sought) and the fly!

"if the fly took something from the deities.. the deities would not be able to take it back from the fly".

The verse meaning is now pretty clear. This is why NONE of the tafsirs say the verse is talking about a flies digestive system.

(They have not regarded Allah with His rightful esteem.) meaning, they have not recognized the might and power of Allah when they wor- ship alongside Him those who cannot even ward off a fly, because they are so weak and incapable. TAFSIR OF IBN KATHIR. http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2486&Itemid=77

SO THE VERSE IT TALKING ABOUT IDOLS THAT CANNOT TAKE BACK SOMETHING TAKEN FROM THEM BY A FLY.

If a gift for a god, like "saffron, honey," etc.. is smothered by flies, the idol cannot stop the flies nor can the idol recover anything the fly has taken from the idols offerings.


READ CAREFULLY, THE MEANING IS VERY CLEAR:

TAFSIR OF IBN KATHIR:
(Verily, those on whom you call besides Allah, cannot create a fly, even though they combine together for the purpose.) Even if all the idols and false gods whom you worship were to come together to create a single fly, they would not be able to do that. Imam Ahmad recorded that Abu Hurayrah recorded the Marfu` report:

(And if the fly snatches away a thing from them, they will have no power to release it from the fly.)

THE "THEM" IS TALKING ABOUT IDOLS, so off course idols cannot take back things from even a fly, lol.

THIS IS THE ONLY MEANING FOR THE VERSE AS CLEARLY UNDERSTOOD BY THE CLASSIC ISLAMIC SCHOLARS LIKE IBN ABBAS.

Narrated Ibn 'Abbas: The Prophet embraced me and said, "O Allah! Teach him (the knowledge of) the Book (Quran). Bukhari, Volume 9, Book 92, Number 375: … http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/bukhari/092.sbt.html#009.092.375

I think that cleared things up.

but you forget to see in the verse itself who it talks about


God says:

[022:073] O mankind! A similitude is coined, so pay ye heed to it: Lo! those on whom ye call beside Allah will never create a fly though they combine together for the purpose. And if the fly took something from them, they could not rescue it from it. So weak are (both) the seeker and the sought!


So weak are (both) the seeker(humans) and the sought(idol-the the worshipped one)

so both humans and false idols are anable to take back what fly took away from them...

hobo
15-03-2012, 07:50 AM
but you forget to see in the verse itself who it talks about


God says:

[022:073] O mankind! A similitude is coined, so pay ye heed to it: Lo! those on whom ye call beside Allah will never create a fly though they combine together for the purpose. And if the fly took something from them, they could not rescue it from it. So weak are (both) the seeker and the sought!


So weak are (both) the seeker(humans) and the sought(idol-the the worshipped one)

so both humans and false idols are anable to take back what fly took away from them...

Again you have demonstrated absolutely nothing, except that your blind faith combined with your obduracy has made you totally immune to logic and facts.
I´m not sure whether to laugh or cry :confused:.

hobo
15-03-2012, 07:55 AM
What do you say to this ciko?:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2112960/90-students-Iraq-stoned-death-having-Emo-hair-tight-clothes.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

Do you think they deserved to die this cruel death for not conforming to the islamic dresscode?

hobo
15-03-2012, 08:01 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-7Ri3-31Lc&context=C48bd85dADvjVQa1PpcFNlhOkU-I9Za_6YFgA4bBnu2Y6UrT777J0=

I made a video for this thread.

No offence, but you´re a raving lunatic. You should hurry to the nearest mental hospital to get an admission, before you hurt anyone with that knife:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=endscreen&NR=1&v=qtk6FxPYpAM

khepera2010
15-03-2012, 08:06 AM
What do you say to this ciko?:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2112960/90-students-Iraq-stoned-death-having-Emo-hair-tight-clothes.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

Do you think they deserved to die this cruel death for not conforming to the islamic dresscode?

...ah but, ah but, ah but.....the ones doing this are'nt ''real'' muslims.

Ah but...ah but

:rolleyes:

hobo
15-03-2012, 08:19 AM
...ah but, ah but, ah but.....the ones doing this are'nt ''real'' muslims.

Ah but...ah but

:rolleyes:

I know. And USA is to blame for it :rolleyes:

khepera2010
15-03-2012, 08:28 AM
I know. And USA is to blame for it :rolleyes:

...apparently so.

Pointing things out like your link though, have no effect on Muslims because, as I say, someone somewhere will claim that Iraqis are'nt genuine muslims.

ciko
15-03-2012, 08:34 AM
What do you say to this ciko?:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2112960/90-students-Iraq-stoned-death-having-Emo-hair-tight-clothes.html?ito=feeds-newsxml

Do you think they deserved to die this cruel death for not conforming to the islamic dresscode?

that is not according islam, that is against islamic teachings..to kill someone for hair or clothes is ABOSLUTLY NOT ISLAMIC TEACHINGS, BUT WHO CARES, YOU DONT BELIEVE WHAT I AM SAYING. YOU WOULD BE VERY HAPPY IF I SAID THAT WAS REAL ISLAM AND THAT THEY DESERVED DEATH, THEN YOU WOULD SAY, EXACTLY WHAT WE HAVE TOLD YOU, ISLAM IS EVIL, BLA BLA BLA....:rolleyes:

itruth
15-03-2012, 08:35 AM
but you forget to see in the verse itself who it talks about


God says:

[022:073] O mankind! A similitude is coined, so pay ye heed to it: Lo! those on whom ye call beside Allah will never create a fly though they combine together for the purpose. And if the fly took something from them, they could not rescue it from it. So weak are (both) the seeker and the sought!


So weak are (both) the seeker(humans) and the sought(idol-the the worshipped one)

so both humans and false idols are anable to take back what fly took away from them...

Actually, the verse is very clear, look:

O humanity! A parable was propounded, so listen to it. Truly, those whom you call to other than God will never create a fly [1], even if they were gathered together for it [2]. And when the fly is to rob them [3] of something, they would never seek to deliver it from the fly. Weak were the ones who are seekers and the ones who are sought.

[1] = the idols

[2] = if the idols gathered together. (360 kabba idols remember)

[3] = if the fly ROBS THE IDOL OF THE OFFERING THAT HAS BEEN OFFERED TO THE IDOL. If it is a gift for the idol, THEN ONLY THE IDOL IS BEING ROBBED BY THE FLY.

This is why ibn abbas SPECIFICALLY IDENTIFIES THE IDOLS AS BEING MEANT IN THIS VERSE.

"if the fly took something from the deities.. the deities would not be able to take it back from the fly". IBN ABBAS TAFSIR!

ciko
15-03-2012, 08:37 AM
Again you have demonstrated absolutely nothing, except that your blind faith combined with your obduracy has made you totally immune to logic and facts.
I´m not sure whether to laugh or cry :confused:.

CRY :rolleyes: beacuse if i spit on God, and work against God whole time as you do, i would also cry beacuse of the punishment after our death when we meet him...

you dont have to believe me , but the fact is everyone of us are goging to die sometime, and IF THIS IS TRUE WHAT I AM SAYING WHOLE TIME, HOW ARE YOU GOING TO SAVE YOU FROM GOD'S PUNISHMENT WHEN YOU STAY IN FRONT OF HIM.

ciko
15-03-2012, 08:40 AM
Actually, the verse is very clear, look:

O humanity! A parable was propounded, so listen to it. Truly, those whom you call to other than God will never create a fly [1], even if they were gathered together for it [2]. And when the fly is to rob them [3] of something, they would never seek to deliver it from the fly. Weak were the ones who are seekers and the ones who are sought.

[1] = the idols

[2] = if the idols gathered together. (360 kabba idols remember)

[3] = if the fly ROBS THE IDOL OF THE OFFERING THAT HAS BEEN OFFERED TO THE IDOL. If it is a gift for the idol, THEN ONLY THE IDOL IS BEING ROBBED BY THE FLY.

This is why ibn abbas SPECIFICALLY IDENTIFIES THE IDOLS AS BEING MEANT IN THIS VERSE.

"if the fly took something from the deities.. the deities would not be able to take it back from the fly". IBN ABBAS TAFSIR!

BUT GOD CLEARLY SAYS THAT HUMANS ARE ON THE SAME LEVEL AS FALSE IDOL GODS

So weak are (both) the seeker(humans) and the sought(idol-the the worshipped one)

CANT YOU READ THIS, DONT YOU UNDERSTAND

WEAK ARE HUMANS
WEAK ARE idol-the the worshipped one

HUMANS=IDOLS, SAME LEVEL...

adam 7
15-03-2012, 08:43 AM
.. HOW ARE YOU GOING TO SAVE YOU FROM GOD'S PUNISHMENT WHEN YOU STAY IN FRONT OF HIM.

Morning ciko, why would God want to punish anyone? :rolleyes: Makes little sense. Surely a compassionate God would want to look kindly on his creations.

ciko
15-03-2012, 08:43 AM
Actually, the verse is very clear, look:

O humanity! A parable was propounded, so listen to it. Truly, those whom you call to other than God will never create a fly [1], even if they were gathered together for it [2]. And when the fly is to rob them [3] of something, they would never seek to deliver it from the fly. Weak were the ones who are seekers and the ones who are sought.

[1] = the idols

[2] = if the idols gathered together. (360 kabba idols remember)

[3] = if the fly ROBS THE IDOL OF THE OFFERING THAT HAS BEEN OFFERED TO THE IDOL. If it is a gift for the idol, THEN ONLY THE IDOL IS BEING ROBBED BY THE FLY.

This is why ibn abbas SPECIFICALLY IDENTIFIES THE IDOLS AS BEING MEANT IN THIS VERSE.

"if the fly took something from the deities.. the deities would not be able to take it back from the fly". IBN ABBAS TAFSIR!

THE FUNNY THING IS THAT YOU EXPELLED NUMBER 4


[1] = the idols

[2] = if the idols gathered together. (360 kabba idols remember)

[3] = if the fly ROBS THE IDOL OF THE OFFERING THAT HAS BEEN OFFERED TO THE IDOL. If it is a gift for the idol, THEN ONLY THE IDOL IS BEING ROBBED BY THE FLY.

[4] So weak are (both) the seeker(humans) and the sought(idol-the the worshipped one)

BUT GOD CLEARLY SAYS THAT HUMANS ARE ON THE SAME LEVEL AS FALSE IDOL GODS

SO NEIGHTYER HUMANS NOR FALSE GODS CAN TAKE IT BACK FROM A FLY...
THAT IS A FACT NO MASTTER HOW HARD YOU TRY TO DISPORVE IT ;)

itruth
15-03-2012, 08:50 AM
that is not according islam, that is against islamic teachings..to kill someone for hair or clothes is ABOSLUTLY NOT ISLAMIC TEACHINGS, BUT WHO CARES, YOU DONT BELIEVE WHAT I AM SAYING. YOU WOULD BE VERY HAPPY IF I SAID THAT WAS REAL ISLAM AND THAT THEY DESERVED DEATH, THEN YOU WOULD SAY, EXACTLY WHAT WE HAVE TOLD YOU, ISLAM IS EVIL, BLA BLA BLA....:rolleyes:


They are killing them for dressing like kuffars and acting like kuffars.

What would muhumamd have done?

Muhummad said he has been commanded to kill people if they don't pray the way he says they should pray, that must also include how one dresses.

Fatwa against wearing infidel's clothing http://www.alifta.net/Fatawa/fatawaDetails.aspx?BookID=3&View=Page&PageNo=1&PageID=9412

The iraqi victims were too openly kuffar:

4.89; They would like you to be kafir as they are kafir so that you will all be the same. Do not take any of them as friends until they have made hijra in the Way of Allah. But if they run away then seize them and kill them wherever you find them. Sura 4.89 Aisha Bewley

itruth
15-03-2012, 08:53 AM
THE FUNNY THING IS THAT YOU EXPELLED NUMBER 4


[1] = the idols

[2] = if the idols gathered together. (360 kabba idols remember)

[3] = if the fly ROBS THE IDOL OF THE OFFERING THAT HAS BEEN OFFERED TO THE IDOL. If it is a gift for the idol, THEN ONLY THE IDOL IS BEING ROBBED BY THE FLY.

[4] So weak are (both) the seeker(humans) and the sought(idol-the the worshipped one)

BUT GOD CLEARLY SAYS THAT HUMANS ARE ON THE SAME LEVEL AS FALSE IDOL GODS

SO NEIGHTYER HUMANS NOR FALSE GODS CAN TAKE IT BACK FROM A FLY...
THAT IS A FACT NO MASTTER HOW HARD YOU TRY TO DISPORVE IT ;)

O humanity! A parable was propounded, so listen to it. Truly, those whom you call to other than God will never create a fly [1], even if they were gathered together for it [2]. And when the fly is to rob them [3] of something, they would never seek to deliver it from the fly. Weak were the ones who are seekers and the ones who are sought.

Theres NOTHING in the verse about humans other than saying that THEY ARE AS WEAK AS THE IDOLS THEY SEEK.

THE PART ABOUT THE FLY IS SPECIFICALLY BEING ADRESSED TOWORDS THE IDOLS AND SPECIFICALLY SAY "THEY" MEANING THE IDOLS OF MECCA.

There is no mention whatsoever of the idols and the seekers of idols working together, you have assumed that.

This is why the cousin of muhummad IBN ABBAS says what i say because he can see what I see in the text.

O Allah! Make him (Ibn 'Abbaas) a learned scholar in religion (Islam)." Sahil Bukhari Book 4 Hadith 145. (See also Volume 005, Book 057, Hadith Numbers 100 & 101A

Abd Allah ibn Abbas was a paternal cousin of the Islamic prophet Muhammad. He is revered by Muslims for his knowledge and was an expert in Tafsir (exegesis of the Qur'an), as well as an authority on the Islamic Sunnah.

"if the fly took something from the deities.. the deities would not be able to take it back from the fly".IBN ABBAS TAFSIR!

THEREFORE, the idols are weak BECAUSE THEY CANNOT EVEN RESIST A FLY, and therefore so are the ones who seek them.

ciko
15-03-2012, 09:13 AM
Morning ciko, why would God want to punish anyone? :rolleyes: Makes little sense. Surely a compassionate God would want to look kindly on his creations.


why would God want to punish anyone?

but what about Hitler then ?? :rolleyes: what about Fritzl, who raped his doughter 20 years in the basement? WHY WOULD GOD PUNISH SERBIAN FORCES WHO RAPED WOMEN AND SLAUGHTERED BABIES.

WHY WOULD GOD PUNISH SUCH CRIMINALS? :rolleyes:

WHY DOES POLICE PUNISH CRIMINALS WITH JAIL AND DEATH PENALTY IN USA? WHY WHY WHY:rolleyes:

BEACUSE THEY ARE CRIMINALS, THAT IS WHY GOD PUNISH ALSO, IF THEY DIE AS CRIMINALS WHAT CAN THEY EXPECT.


Surely a compassionate God would want to look kindly on his creations

IMAGINE HITLER STAY IN FRONT OF GOD ON THE DAY OF JUDGMENT AND GOD SAYS TO HIM "GO TO PARADISE" BEACUSE YOU HAVE KILLED 6 MILLION JEWS. WOULD YOU LIKE SUCH GOD??????????

WHAT GOD IS THAT WHO REWARD CRMINIALS...

ciko
15-03-2012, 09:18 AM
They are killing them for dressing like kuffars and acting like kuffars.

What would muhumamd have done?

Muhummad said he has been commanded to kill people if they don't pray the way he says they should pray, that must also include how one dresses.

Fatwa against wearing infidel's clothing http://www.alifta.net/Fatawa/fatawaDetails.aspx?BookID=3&View=Page&PageNo=1&PageID=9412

The iraqi victims were too openly kuffar:

4.89; They would like you to be kafir as they are kafir so that you will all be the same. Do not take any of them as friends until they have made hijra in the Way of Allah. But if they run away then seize them and kill them wherever you find them. Sura 4.89 Aisha Bewley

YOU ARE SWIMMING IN YOUR DELUSION, WHO THE HELL TEACHES YOU SUCH STUPIDIES AND LIES?? :rolleyes:

IF YOU THINK THAT ISLAM KILLS KUFFAR BEACUSE THEY KUFFAR THEN YOU ARE AN BIG IDIOT ;)

tsafirkamel
15-03-2012, 09:39 AM
Brother Ciko:

Fight Not With Nonbelievers

Hellfire Awaits Them

Allah gives you great blessings for this thread.

ciko
15-03-2012, 09:42 AM
Brother Ciko:

Fight Not With Nonbelievers

Hellfire Awaits Them

Allah gives you great blessings for this thread.

are you really a Jew? :D

itruth
15-03-2012, 09:48 AM
YOU ARE SWIMMING IN YOUR DELUSION, WHO THE HELL TEACHES YOU SUCH STUPIDIES AND LIES?? :rolleyes:

IF YOU THINK THAT ISLAM KILLS KUFFAR BEACUSE THEY KUFFAR THEN YOU ARE AN BIG IDIOT ;)

I ASKED YOU WHAT WOULD MUHUMMAD DO TO THEM? YOU HAVEN'T ANSWERED.

What did muhummad say?:

"The messenger of allah said: 'I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and they establish prostration prayer, and pay Zakat. If they do it, their blood and property are protected.'" http://hadith.al-islam.com/Page.aspx?pageid=197&BookID=34&PID=134&SubjectID=9927

What does the above SAHIH hadith mean?

The ones who don't say "there is no god but allah" ARE KUFFAR.

The ones who "reject muhummad as a prophet" ARE KUFFAR.

The ones who don't pray like HOW muhummad said to pray ARE KUFFAR.

The ones who refuse to pay zakat ARE KUFFAR.

If the people fail to do what muhummad ordered they ARE KUFFAR, and muhummad himself said neither their lives and properties are no longer safe from him.

KORAN SAYS FOLLOW MUHUMMADS EXAMPLE. MUHUMMAD IS THE SUPREME ROLE MODEL FOR MUSLIMS:

“You have had a good example in allah's Messenger for whosoever hopes for God and the Last Day, and remembers allah.” Q. 33:21 http://answering-islam.org/authors/alfadi/jihad.html

Sura 9.29 says ' QATLIU = wage war/attack, fight to kill THE KUFFAR.

itruth
15-03-2012, 09:56 AM
Brother Ciko:

Fight Not With Nonbelievers

Hellfire Awaits Them

Allah gives you great blessings for this thread.

actually, the koran says hell fire awaites ALL MUSLIMS.

But allah will sort this out by exchanging the muslims in hell with jews and christians.

Sahih Muslim, Book 037, Number 6665: Abu Musa' reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: When it will be the Day of Resurrection Allah would deliver to every Muslim a Jew or a Christian and say: That is your RESCUE from Hell-Fire.

Abu Burda reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: There would come people amongst the Muslims on the Day of Resurrection with as HEAVY SINS AS A MOUNTIAN, and Allah would forgive them and He would place in their stead the Jews and the Christians. sahih Muslim Book 037, Number 6668:
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/muslim/037.smt.html

How lovely.

So the christians and the jews are the saviours of muslims.

ciko
15-03-2012, 10:03 AM
What did muhummad say?:

"The messenger of allah said: 'I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and they establish prostration prayer, and pay Zakat. If they do it, their blood and property are protected.'" http://hadith.al-islam.com/Page.aspx?pageid=197&BookID=34&PID=134&SubjectID=9927

What does the above SAHIH hadith mean?

The ones who don't say "there is no god but allah" ARE KUFFAR.

The ones who "reject muhummad as a prophet" ARE KUFFAR.

The ones who don't pray like HOW muhummad said to pray ARE KUFFAR.

The ones who refuse to pay zakat ARE KUFFAR.

If the people fail to do what muhummad ordered they ARE KUFFAR, and muhummad himself said neither their lives and properties are no longer safe from him.

KORAN SAYS FOLLOW MUHUMMADS EXAMPLE. MUHUMMAD IS THE SUPREME ROLE MODEL FOR MUSLIMS:

“You have had a good example in allah's Messenger for whosoever hopes for God and the Last Day, and remembers allah.” Q. 33:21 http://answering-islam.org/authors/alfadi/jihad.html

Sura 9.29 says ' QATLIU = wage war/attack, fight to kill THE KUFFAR.

YOU REALLY DONT UNDERSTAND ANYTHING :rolleyes:


"The messenger of allah said: 'I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and they establish prostration prayer, and pay Zakat. If they do it, their blood and property are protected.'" http://hadith.al-islam.com/Page.aspx?pageid=197&BookID=34&PID=134&SubjectID=9927

IN OTHER WORDS IF YOU DONT JOIN US WE WILL NOT PROTECT YOU FROM OTHERS WHO WANT TO HURT YOU...

IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT IF YOU STAY UNBELIEVERS I SHALL KILL YOU AND ROB YOU, NO NO NO...

IF NON-MUSLIMS CHOOSE TO STAY NON-MUSLIMS (JEW OR CHRISTIAN) THEN THEY NEED ONLY TO PAY TAXES TO ISLAMIC STATE , LIKE OTHER CITIZENS NEED TO DO, LIKE WE AL NEED TO TODAY...THEN NOBODY CAN HURT THEM IN ISLAMIC STATE, THEY ARE SAFE.

IF NON-MUSLIMS OR MUSLIMS DONT WANT TO PAY TAXES IN ISLAMIC STATE THEN THE WAR CAN START ON BOTH MUSLIMS AND NON-MUSLIMS BY ISLAMIC GOVERMENT.

When abu bakr ruled islamic state, some muslim people did not want to pay zakat (tax) to islamic state then he started war against them.

ciko
15-03-2012, 10:07 AM
actually, the koran says hell fire awaites ALL MUSLIMS.

But allah will sort this out by exchanging the muslims in hell with jews and christians.

Sahih Muslim, Book 037, Number 6665: Abu Musa' reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) said: When it will be the Day of Resurrection Allah would deliver to every Muslim a Jew or a Christian and say: That is your RESCUE from Hell-Fire.

Abu Burda reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: There would come people amongst the Muslims on the Day of Resurrection with as HEAVY SINS AS A MOUNTIAN, and Allah would forgive them and He would place in their stead the Jews and the Christians. sahih Muslim Book 037, Number 6668:
http://www.usc.edu/schools/college/crcc/engagement/resources/texts/muslim/hadith/muslim/037.smt.html

How lovely.

So the christians and the jews are the saviours of muslims.

your delusion is wooow, i have never seen such deluded person in my life..


actually, the koran says hell fire awaites ALL MUSLIMS.

where does quran say?

But allah will sort this out by exchanging the muslims in hell with jews and christians

when jews killed prophets of God ,they deserved punishment by God
and beacuse they disorted they holy book.

christians call jesus son of God or God himself, and pray to jesus like he is God, that is shirk, joining partners with God.

itruth
15-03-2012, 10:18 AM
YOU REALLY DONT UNDERSTAND ANYTHING :rolleyes:


"The messenger of allah said: 'I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah, and they establish prostration prayer, and pay Zakat. If they do it, their blood and property are protected.'" http://hadith.al-islam.com/Page.aspx?pageid=197&BookID=34&PID=134&SubjectID=9927

IN OTHER WORDS IF YOU DONT JOIN US WE WILL NOT PROTECT YOU FROM OTHERS WHO WANT TO HURT YOU...

IT DOES NOT MEAN THAT IF YOU STAY UNBELIEVERS I SHALL KILL YOU AND ROB YOU, NO NO NO...

IF NON-MUSLIMS CHOOSE TO STAY NON-MUSLIMS (JEW OR CHRISTIAN) THEN THEY NEED ONLY TO PAY TAXES TO ISLAMIC STATE , LIKE OTHER CITIZENS NEED TO DO, LIKE WE AL NEED TO TODAY...THEN NOBODY CAN HURT THEM IN ISLAMIC STATE, THEY ARE SAFE.

IF NON-MUSLIMS OR MUSLIMS DONT WANT TO PAY TAXES IN ISLAMIC STATE THEN THE WAR CAN START ON BOTH MUSLIMS AND NON-MUSLIMS BY ISLAMIC GOVERMENT.

When abu bakr ruled islamic state, some muslim people did not want to pay zakat (tax) to islamic state then he started war against them.

IN OTHER WORDS IF YOU DONT JOIN US WE WILL NOT PROTECT YOU FROM OTHERS WHO WANT TO HURT YOU...

Thats just pathetic.

Muhummad says THAT HE IS COMMANDED TO FIGHT THEM, HE IS THE ONE THEY HAVE TO BE AFRAID OF.

"The messenger of allah said: 'I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah".

Al-Fawzan's best-known textbook, "Al-Tawheed – Monotheism," (taught to Saudi high school students) says most Muslims are polytheists [KUFFAR], and THEIR BLOOD AND MONEY ARE THEREFORE FREE FOR THE TAKING BY “TRUE MUSLIMS”. http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=35518

itruth
15-03-2012, 10:23 AM
your delusion is wooow, i have never seen such deluded person in my life..




where does quran say?



when jews killed prophets of God ,they deserved punishment by God
and beacuse they disorted they holy book.

christians call jesus son of God or God himself, and pray to jesus like he is God, that is shirk, joining partners with God.

where does quran say? [ALL MUSLIMS]

I thought you said you have studied koran for 17 years?

Sura 19:71. Tafsir Ibn abbas

“there is not a single one of you, TO THE EXCLUSION OF THE PROPHETS AND MESSENGERS, save that he will ENTER IT, i.e. HELL. (That is a fixed ordinance of YOUR LORD) it is a decree that MUST NECESSARILY take place.” http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=19&tAyahNo=71&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2

Tafsir al jalalayn sura 19.71:

There is not one of you but shall come to it, that is, [but] shall enter Hell. That is an inevitability [already] decreed by your Lord, [something which] He made inevitable and [which] He decreed; He will not
waive it.

That means all of you muslims, INCLUDING THE PIOUS ONES.

when jews killed prophets of God ,they deserved punishment by God
and beacuse they disorted they holy book.

christians call jesus son of God or God himself, and pray to jesus like he is God, that is shirk, joining partners with God.

Where does the jewish God say he will exchange people in hell? THYE JEWS AND CHRISTIANS ARE THE ONES WHO REJECTED MUHUMMAD, THAT WAS THEIR CRIME IN ALLAHS EYES. EVERYTHING IS YOU SAID WAS HOGWASH, FROM YOUR OWN IMAGINATION.

And the point is, you muslims are condemned to hell by your own god allah, and your sinful places in hell are exchanged by people whos only crime is that they rejected muhummads allah.

And therefore muslims from what you have just said can never to christians and jews that islam respects them. If the chriostians and jews knew the truth about what islam teaches they would all condemn it.

hobo
15-03-2012, 10:29 AM
CRY :rolleyes: beacuse if i spit on God, and work against God whole time as you do, i would also cry beacuse of the punishment after our death when we meet him...

you dont have to believe me , but the fact is everyone of us are goging to die sometime, and IF THIS IS TRUE WHAT I AM SAYING WHOLE TIME, HOW ARE YOU GOING TO SAVE YOU FROM GOD'S PUNISHMENT WHEN YOU STAY IN FRONT OF HIM.

What do you know about my relationship to God? You obviously think that the only valid way to relate to God is through islam, which I debate with you. Is that a crime ciko?

You come here to this forum; a forum meant for discussions, and make the sweeping statement: "Islam is the one true religion from God". Why do you do that, when you 1) aren´t able to back up your claim with valid arguments 2) feel offended when people don´t buy into your religious propaganda?

I´m sorry but I don´t think God will punish me for adressing the problems concerning islam and the crimes perpetuated in its name. But you and your ilk might. I, like many others, have already suffered at the hands of muslim immigrants here in my own country. Arabs,pakistanis, somalis, turks who think nothing of cheating, raping and robbing westerners, because the koran has told them that muslims are better people than anybody else (just because they´re muslims), and that a crime committed against kuffars is not really a crime. Maybe even a "sacred" duty...

If all this barbarity and cruelty running rampant in islamic states has nothing to with islam/sharia itself, could you please tell me why the islamic clerics and jurisprudence always chooses ( and gets away with choosing) to interpret sharia as a licence for inflicting the most insane tyranny possible? If islam/sharia has absolutely nothing to do with this, what has? And please dont say that it´s USA that makes them do it. USA has even more influence on Europe than it has on e.g. Sudan, Quatar and Saudi Arabia. But our legal system does not sanction death-penalties like the above mentioned. Do you really think that your belief in a book, will exempt you from personal responsability ciko? Think again. Maybe it´s time to broaden your perpective a bit.

ciko
15-03-2012, 10:33 AM
Thats just pathetic.

Muhummad says THAT HE IS COMMANDED TO FIGHT THEM, HE IS THE ONE THEY HAVE TO BE AFRAID OF.

"The messenger of allah said: 'I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah".

Al-Fawzan's best-known textbook, "Al-Tawheed – Monotheism," (taught to Saudi high school students) says most Muslims are polytheists [KUFFAR], and THEIR BLOOD AND MONEY ARE THEREFORE FREE FOR THE TAKING BY “TRUE MUSLIMS”. http://www.wnd.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=35518



"The messenger of allah said: 'I have been commanded to fight against people till they testify there is no god but Allah, that Muhammad is the Messenger of Allah".

man, you can not teach me islam, i have studied islam 17 YEARS, it does not mean fight in combat , God explains in quran how to fight no-believers


if you qoute Ibn Abbas to much, let see if you going to take his explanation of that

God says:

25:52 So do not listen to the disbelievers and, with this Qur’an, fight a great war against them.

what does ibn Abbas say about fthis verse fighting non-believers

﴿فَلاَ تُطِعِ الْكَـفِرِينَ وَجَـهِدْهُمْ بِهِ﴾

(So obey not the disbelievers, but strive hard against them with it.) meaning, with the Qur'an. This was the view of Ibn `Abbas.

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2389&Itemid=80

so fighting against non-belivers is with quran, like i am fighting you right now with quranic verses and scientific text wich confirms those verse.

ARE YOU GOING YO ACCEPT IBN ABBAS VIEW ABOUT FIGHTING NON-BELIVERS, OR YOU ARE GOING TO BE HYPOCRITE? :D

itruth
15-03-2012, 10:42 AM
man, you can not teach me islam, i have studied islam 17 YEARS, it does not mean fight in combat , God explains in quran how to fight no-believers


if you qoute Ibn Abbas to much, let see if you going to take his explanation of that

God says:

25:52 So do not listen to the disbelievers and, with this Qur’an, fight a great war against them.

what does ibn Abbas say about fthis verse fighting non-believers

﴿فَلاَ تُطِعِ الْكَـفِرِينَ وَجَـهِدْهُمْ بِهِ﴾

(So obey not the disbelievers, but strive hard against them with it.) meaning, with the Qur'an. This was the view of Ibn `Abbas.

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2389&Itemid=80

so fighting against non-belivers is with quran, like i am fighting you right now with quranic verses and scientific text wich confirms those verse.

ARE YOU GOING YO ACCEPT IBN ABBAS VIEW ABOUT FIGHTING NON-BELIVERS, OR YOU ARE GOING TO BE HYPOCRITE? :D

TAFSIR OF IBN ABBAS:


(So obey not the disbelievers) Abu Jahl and his host regarding hat which they ask of you, (but strive against them herewith) by means of the Qur'an (with a great endeavour) by the sword. http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=25&tAyahNo=52&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2

Whom did muhummad jihad with koran?

Doing jihad with koran means obey what is in the koran, in the koran it says kill the kuffar.

This is what happened to abu jahl:

Then the other boy called my attention saying the same as the other had said. After a while I saw Abu Jahl walking amongst the people. I said (to the boys), "Look! This is the man you asked me about." So, both of them attacked him with their swords and struck him to death and returned to Allah'S Apostle to inform him of that. Allah's Apostle asked, "Which of you has killed him?" Each of them said, "I Have killed him." Allah's Apostle asked, "Have you cleaned your swords?" They said, "No. " He then looked at their swords and said, "No doubt, you both have killed him (Sahih Bukhari 4.369. see also Sahih Bukhari 5.324, Sahih Bukhari 5.298, Sahih Bukhari 5.300, Sahih Bukhari 5.301, Sahih Bukhari 5.355 )

So the person did the muslims do battle against abu jahl with the koran as a book or with their swords?

"with this Qur’an, fight a great war against them

The battle of badr.

ciko
15-03-2012, 10:43 AM
I thought you said you have studied koran for 17 years?

Sura 19:71. Tafsir Ibn abbas

“there is not a single one of you, TO THE EXCLUSION OF THE PROPHETS AND MESSENGERS, save that he will ENTER IT, i.e. HELL. (That is a fixed ordinance of YOUR LORD) it is a decree that MUST NECESSARILY take place.” http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=19&tAyahNo=71&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2

Tafsir al jalalayn sura 19.71:

There is not one of you but shall come to it, that is, [but] shall enter Hell. That is an inevitability [already] decreed by your Lord, [something which] He made inevitable and [which] He decreed; He will not
waive it.

That means all of you muslims, INCLUDING THE PIOUS ONES.



Where does the jewish God say he will exchange people in hell? THYE JEWS AND CHRISTIANS ARE THE ONES WHO REJECTED MUHUMMAD, THAT WAS THEIR CRIME IN ALLAHS EYES. EVERYTHING IS YOU SAID WAS HOGWASH, FROM YOUR OWN IMAGINATION.

And the point is, you muslims are condemned to hell by your own god allah, and your sinful places in hell are exchanged by people whos only crime is that they rejected muhummads allah.

And therefore muslims from what you have just said can never to christians and jews that islam respects them. If the chriostians and jews knew the truth about what islam teaches they would all condemn it.


LET SEE HOW IT REALLY IS, YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND SOMETHING, YOU DONT UNDERSTAND ISLAM MAN, AND I WILL EXPLAIN TO YOU WHY

God says:

﴿وَإِن مِّنكُمْ إِلاَّ وَارِدُهَا كَانَ عَلَى رَبِّكَ حَتْماً مَّقْضِيّاً - ثُمَّ نُنَجِّى الَّذِينَ اتَّقَواْ وَّنَذَرُ الظَّـلِمِينَ فِيهَا جِثِيّاً

19:(71. There is not one of you but will pass over it (Hell); this is with your Lord, a decree which must be accomplished.)
(72. Then We shall save those who had Taqwa. And We shall leave the wrongdoers in it, Jithiyya.)

Ibn Jarir reported from `Abdullah that he said concerning Allah's statement

﴿وَإِن مِّنكُمْ إِلاَّ وَارِدُهَا﴾

(There is not one of you but will pass over it.) "The bridge over Hell is like the sharp edge of a sword. The first group to cross it will pass like a flash of lightning. The second group will pass like the wind. The third group will pass like the fastest horse. The fourth group will pass like the fastest cow. Then, the rest will pass while the angels will be saying, `O Allah save them, save them.' '' This narration has supporting narrations similar to it from the Prophet in the Two Sahihs and other collections as well. These narrations have been related by Anas, Abu Sa`id, Abu Hurayrah, Jabir and other Companions, may Allah be pleased with them all.

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2668&Itemid=75#1



A Scientific Approach on Al-Sirat (the bridge over Hell)
Introduction

I am aware that I could be completely wrong about what I say here, because there is no way of proving it and this is just a theory of mine. Only Allah knows the validity and truthfulness of what I will say about this topic. However, I feel that it’s very much possible that this idea could be correct, because I think the points that I make about the al-sirat have a close connection with today’s understanding of physics and the universe.

Some of you might not really get it. But even though the subject material is a little bit dense and complicated, I tried to keep everything as simple as I can. First I will briefly explain what is the Sirat, and then explain what is a "cosmic string". And then I will talk about some of the similar features between the Sirat and a cosmic string, in order to make the point that the sirat might be a cosmic string.


What is al-Sirat

The al-sirat is a long and narrow bridge that everyone will have to pass through before entering Heaven. It is believed to be a “bridge over Hell”. The Quran does not say anything about this bridge, except in Surah 19 Verse 71, which could possibly be referring to the bridge. In that verse it says, "There is not one of you but will pass over it: this is, with your Lord, a decree which must be accomplished" (Surah 19:71).

Some scholars refer Verse 71 of this Surah to the Bridge over Hell, the sirat, over which all must pass to their final destiny. They argue that this verse is simply saying that people will have to pass or cross over Hell into Paradise on a bridge called al-Sirat.

But even though the sirat is not specifically mentioned in the Quran, it is found in some of the authentic hadiths of our Prophet (pbuh):

Narrated by Abu Huraira: Some people said, "O Allah's Apostle! Shall we see our Lord on the Day of Resurrection?" He said, "Do you crowd and squeeze each other on looking at the sun when it is not hidden by clouds?" They replied, "No, Allah's Apostle." He said, "Do you crowd and squeeze each other on looking at the moon when it is full and not hidden by clouds?" They replied, No, O Allah's Apostle!" He said, "So you will see Him (your Lord) on the Day of Resurrection similarly Allah will gather all the people and say, 'Whoever used to worship anything should follow that thing. 'So, he who used to worship the sun, will follow it, and he who used to worship the moon will follow it, and he who used to worship false deities will follow them; and then only this nation (i.e., Muslims) will remain, including their hypocrites. Allah will come to them in a shape other than they know and will say, 'I am your Lord.' They will say, 'We seek refuge with Allah from you. This is our place; (we will not follow you) till our Lord comes to us, and when our Lord comes to us, we will recognize Him.' Then Allah will come to then in a shape they know and will say, 'I am your Lord.' They will say, '(No doubt) You are our Lord,' and they will follow Him. Then a bridge will be laid over the (Hell) Fire." Allah's Apostle added, "I will be the first to cross it. And the invocation of the Apostles on that Day, will be 'Allahukka Sallim, Sallim (O Allah, save us, save us!),' and over that bridge there will be hooks Similar to the thorns of As Sa'dan (a thorny tree). Didn't you see the thorns of As-Sa'dan?" The companions said, "Yes, O Allah's Apostle." He added, "So the hooks over that bridge will be like the thorns of As-Sa-dan except that their greatness in size is only known to Allah. These hooks will snatch the people according to their deeds. Some people will be ruined because of their evil deeds, and some will be cut into pieces and fall down in Hell, but will be saved afterwards, when Allah has finished the judgments among His slaves, and intends to take out of the Fire whoever He wishes to take out from among those who used to testify that none had the right to be worshipped but Allah.” (Sahi Bukhari- Volume 8, Book 76, Number 577)

Narrated by Abu Sa'id Al-Khudri: We, the companions of the Prophet said, "O Allah's Apostle! What is the bridge?' He said, "It is a slippery (bridge) on which there are clamps and (Hooks like) a thorny seed that is wide at one side and narrow at the other and has thorns with bent ends. Such a thorny seed is found in Najd and is called As-Sa'dan. Some of the believers will cross the bridge as quickly as the wink of an eye, some others as quick as lightning, a strong wind, fast horses or she-camels. So some will be safe without any harm; some will be safe after receiving some scratches, and some will fall down into Hell. The last person will cross by being dragged over the bridge." (Sahih Bukhari- Volume 9, Book 93, Number 532)

It is believed by many Muslims today that the as-siraat bridge is extremely thin (thinner than a hair) and also long and very sharp (sharper than a blade). The bridge of as-siraat is a very long and narrow path to heaven, and below it is hell. Everyone has to pass the bridge to go to heaven. Some people will walk over the bridge very slowly, and other people will pass the bridge as fast as lightning. Those who have alot of sins will lose their balance as they walk over the bridge and they will be caught by the hooks on the bridge and fall down into hell.

Here is another interesting lecture about the Sirat:
http://www.daralislaamlive.com/index...sk=view&id=147


What is a Cosmic String?

In theoretical physics, there is something called cosmic strings. Cosmic strings are said to be thinner than the nucleus of an atom. Even though they are incredibly thin, they have an immense density. Cosmic strings are under millions upon millions of gravitional pressure, which is why they are so dense. It is calculated that "A cosmic string 1.6 kilometers in length would exert more gravity than the Earth" (cited from http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_string ). Cosmic strings are said to be remnants left over after the Big Bang. They may have formed right after the Big Bang, and many of them may still be present somewhere in our universe.

Even though cosmic strings have never been detected, physicists believe that their existence is very probable because this idea fits well with other cosmological theories, such as inflation theory, symmetry breaking, and grand unification theory. The existence of cosmic strings is also supported by string theory, which I have read about in wikipedia- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cosmic_string. String theorist Joseph Polchinski said that the expanding universe could have stretched a "fundamental" string until it was of "intergalactic size". The physicist Brian Greene, in his book The Elegant Universe, also mentioned the possibility of detecting a long string extending across the universe sometime in the future. He writes that “the size of a string is typically the Planck length, but strings that are more energetic can grow substantially larger. The energy of the big bang, in fact, would have been high enough to produce a few macroscopically large strings that, through cosmic expansion, might have grown to astronomical scales. We can imagine that now or sometime in the distant future, a string of this sort might sweep across the night sky, leaving an unmistakable and measurable imprint on data collected by astronomers” (pg. 224).


The Sirat and a Cosmic String: Are they one and the same thing?

1. They are both long and thinner than a hair:

Now having explained what is the Sirat and what are cosmic strings, my main idea is that the bridge to heaven, the Sirat, might be a long cosmic string from a scientific point of view. Because just like the Sirat, a cosmic string is extremely thin and also very long. At the same time it is very dense, because gravity is very strong and tightly curved near the region of a cosmic string.

2. They both have hooks:

Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) also told us that that there will be hooks and thorns on the as-sirat bridge, hooks like the thorns of a plant. Like the as-sirat bridge, do cosmic strings have hooks too? Believe it or not, scientists say that cosmic strings have something on them called "kinks" and "cusps", which are both very similar to the definition of hooks. These so-called kinks and cusps can form at many points throughout the length of a long cosmic string. The definition of a kink (from thefreedictionary.com) is: A tight curl, twist, or bend in a length of thin material, as one caused by the tensing of a looped section of wire. Another definition of kink (from merriam-webster.com) is: a short tight twist or curl caused by a doubling or winding of something upon itself. And the definition of a cusp (from thefreedictionary.com) is simply: A point or pointed end.

It is said these cusps or kinks emit powerful bursts of radiation, such as gamma rays and gravitational waves. In an article titled "Getting Vibes From Cosmic Strings" ( http://findarticles.com/p/articles/m...131/ai_4986446 ) it says that "As cosmic strings oscillate, certain fast-moving parts of them called 'cusps' should produce narrow, well-directed beams of gamma rays that could give an observer crossing their path the effect of sharp bursts." In another article titled "Cosmic Superstrings and LIGO"- http://www.phys.lsu.edu/mog/mog25/node12.html - it tells us that "The bursts we are most likely to be able to detect are produced at cosmic string cusps. These are regions of string which acquire phenomenal Lorentz boosts, and emit a powerful burst of gravitational waves in the direction of motion of the string." In another article it says that two physicists, Thibault Damour and Alexander Vilenkin, figured out that "when cosmic strings oscillate, every once in a while, they crack like a whip. 'It's surprising,' said Polchinski, 'but when you write out the equations for an oscillating string, a little piece of the string snaps and moves very fast. Basically, the tip will move at the speed of light. When a string cracks like this, it emits a cone of gravitational waves, which is a remarkably intense and distinctive signal, which LIGO can detect'"
cited from: http://www.kitp.ucsb.edu/kitpnews/item/?id=13

Below I have given two more links to studies that talk about these "cusps" and "kinks":
1) "The form of cosmic string cusps"
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/gr-qc/pdf/9810/9810005v1.pdf
2) "Gravitational wave bursts from cusps and kinks on cosmic strings"
http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/gr-qc/pdf/0104/0104026v1.pdf

Even though these two papers are very technical and mathematical, the basic idea of the papers is that the existence of cusps and kinks on a cosmic string are well-supported by physicists doing research on cosmic strings.

Thus, if we were walking on a long cosmic string, it is possible that the cusps on a cosmic string act like hooks. In the same way that some people crossing the as-sirat will be cut, torn, or pulled downwards into Hell by the hooks on the bridge, I think that similarly the powerful bursts of radiation emitted from the cusps of a cosmic string can tear our bodies apart. It's also possible that the gravitational waves that radiate from the cusps can pull us downward by the gravitational force if we were walking on a cosmic string. Just like the hooks on the as-sirat bridge will make it difficult for some people to cross the bridge quickly, the cusps and kinks on a cosmic string might make it difficult for some people to make it through the cosmic string quickly because of the bursts of radiation and gravitational waves bombarding us throughout our long journey to heaven. Maybe the more sins a person has, the more likely he will be caught by the cusps on a cosmic string and the more radiation he will recieve from those cusps. The cusps on the cosmic string might cause sinful people to get out of balance as they're walking, while those people with little sins won't get caught by the cusps and thus they will be able to stay on the straight path and make it to heaven. In this sense I think the cusps and kinks on a cosmic string are a scientific way of thinking about the hooks on the as-sirat bridge- the bridge over hell.

3. Traveling at the speed of light:

Another good point is that cosmic strings can allow time travel to the past. Some scientists have designed models of time travel using the physics of cosmic strings. One physicist who showed how cosmic strings can be used for time travel is J. Richard Gott of Princeton University in 1991. In his book Time Travel in Einstein's Universe, he discusses in length about his proposed theory of time travel via cosmic strings.

In this website: http://science.howstuffworks.com/time-travel4.htm, it states that: "These cosmic strings, which are thinner than an atom, would generate an enormous amount of gravitational pull on any objects that pass near them. Objects attached to a cosmic string could travel at incredible speeds, and because their gravitational force distorts spacetime, they could be used for time travel. By pulling two cosmic strings close together, or one string close to a black hole, it might be possible to warp spacetime enough to create closed time-like curves."

The following link has another good article about cosmic strings and their role in time travel to the past:
http://caleng.berkeley.edu/archive/s...;20Strings.pdf

The idea that cosmic strings allow time travel to the past matches with the Islamic belief that we will become younger (like 25 to 30 years old) when we go to heaven after crossing the as-sirat. If we become attached to a cosmic string one day, then maybe we will travel through the length of the cosmic string and go back in time. This point matches with the Islamic teaching that there will be some people who will cross the as-siraat as fast as lightning. Einstein said that to go back in time you have to travel at the speed of light. So it follows that as we go through the as-siraat bridge at the speed of light or as fast as lightning, we will be going back in time and thus our age will reverse and we will become younger when we reach heaven after passing the narrow bridge. Similarly, physicists say that things attached to a cosmic string can travel at incredible speeds and even go back in time by going faster than the speed of light.

There is also the possibility that a long cosmic string can be scattered or even captured by a rotating black hole, which is explained how in a paper titled "Scattering of Cosmic Strings by Black Holes: Loop Formation" ( http://arxiv.org/PS_cache/gr-qc/pdf/0609/0609089v1.pdf ). If the end of a cosmic string is attached inside the event horizon of a black hole, then everything attached to the cosmic string might possibly be propelled towards the black hole at a very high speed. A long cosmic string plus a black hole are the two ingredients of Richard Gott's time machine which I briefly mentioned earlier. In fact, cosmic strings are essentially "a two-dimensional version of a black hole": "Similar to the way that a black hole’s mass collapses into a single one-dimensional point called the singularity, a cosmic string’s mass collapses into a string-like object or in other words a two-dimensional singularity". And "Much like a black hole, when an object passes by a cosmic string, the object will be pulled in by the gravitational force and become attached to the cosmic string. In this state, the object can travel at incredible fast speeds and distort the space-time that it lies in. The gravitational force on the mass of the object is what bends time, thus making it possible for the object to travel through time"
cited from http://www.zamandayolculuk.com/cetin...lBlackHole.htm


Recap of the similarities between the al-sirat and a cosmic string

1. Prophet Muhammad (peace be upon him) told us that the width of As-sirat will be thinner than a hair. Similarly, physicists say that the width of a cosmic string is thinner than the nucleus of an atom.

2. The Prophet told us that the As-sirat will have hooks and thorns on it. A cosmic string also has what physicists call “cusps” and “kinks” on it, which are sharp and pointed ends on a cosmic string.

3. The Prophet told us that some people will cross the As-sirat as fast as lightning. Similarly, physicists say that objects that get attached to a cosmic string can travel at incredible speeds- almost at the speed of light.

So the question is, can it be a coincidence that the descriptions of the Sirat and the descriptions of a cosmic string are so similar to each other? Although it could be coincidence, to me it seems more likely not to be the case. And if the similarities between a cosmic string and the Sirat are too great to happen by coincidence, then it’s very much possible that the al-sirat is a cosmic string. However, we can never be too sure about whether the Sirat is a cosmic string or not, and we cannot even test this theory.


Conclusion
Once again as a reminder, all the points I have made in this discussion are only possibilities of being true, not facts. This was just my own hypothesis about the Al-Sirat, and therefore I won't deny that I could be wrong. I only suggested what seems to me the most probable scenarios that fit with the ideas of theoretical physics. But only Allah knows the truth.

http://oi42.tinypic.com/73o2v5.jpg



do you see now why you can not teach me islam :rolleyes:?

tsafirkamel
15-03-2012, 10:49 AM
Brother Ciko, do not allow the ash-shaytan to frustrate.

The unbelievers will meet fire.

ciko
15-03-2012, 10:53 AM
Why Quran say kill all Christians and Jews where you find them? Sheik Yusuf Estes - YouTube

itruth
15-03-2012, 11:01 AM
LET SEE HOW IT REALLY IS, YOU HAVE TO UNDERSTAND SOMETHING, YOU DONT UNDERSTAND ISLAM MAN, AND I WILL EXPLAIN TO YOU WHY

God says:

﴿وَإِن مِّنكُمْ إِلاَّ وَارِدُهَا كَانَ عَلَى رَبِّكَ حَتْماً مَّقْضِيّاً - ثُمَّ نُنَجِّى الَّذِينَ اتَّقَواْ وَّنَذَرُ الظَّـلِمِينَ فِيهَا جِثِيّاً

19:(71. There is not one of you but will pass over it (Hell); this is with your Lord, a decree which must be accomplished.)
(72. Then We shall save those who had Taqwa. And We shall leave the wrongdoers in it, Jithiyya.)

Ibn Jarir reported from `Abdullah that he said concerning Allah's statement

﴿وَإِن مِّنكُمْ إِلاَّ وَارِدُهَا﴾

(There is not one of you but will pass over it.) "The bridge over Hell is like the sharp edge of a sword. The first group to cross it will pass like a flash of lightning. The second group will pass like the wind. The third group will pass like the fastest horse. The fourth group will pass like the fastest cow. Then, the rest will pass while the angels will be saying, `O Allah save them, save them.' '' This narration has supporting narrations similar to it from the Prophet in the Two Sahihs and other collections as well. These narrations have been related by Anas, Abu Sa`id, Abu Hurayrah, Jabir and other Companions, may Allah be pleased with them all.

http://www.qtafsir.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=2668&Itemid=75#1


do you see now why you can not teach me islam :rolleyes:?

sura 19.71 makes no mention of any bridge. And if you believe there is a bridge, that would mean that the non muslims who get left in hell are not left in hell, they are left on a bridge, because the wrong doers and the muslims ARE IN THE EXACT SAME PLACE. THAT PLACE IS HELL!


SURA 19.72:
Then We will deliver (read nunajjī or nunjī) those who were wary, of [committing] idolatry or disbelief, [We will deliver them] from it, and leave those who did wrong, by way of idolatry and disbelief, crouching therein, on their knees. Tafsir Al Jalalayn.

See, they are all in the same place, and that place is hell. Everyone is gathered to the SAME PLACE, and people will be "LEFT THEREIN"

“Many scholars have diligently VERIFIED THE SURETY OF ENTRY (wurood) INTO HELL but expressed IGNORANCE ABOUT EXIT FROM IT and have stated so in the book ‘The Preparation (Al-Tam-heed)’”

Shaykh Al-Albani said: “ÇáãÑæÑ Úáì ÇáÕÑÇØ åæ ÏÎæá Ýí ÇáäÇÑ“ Crossing on sirat is entering into the fire.”

Muslims trying to escape this reality:

“So if one wants to claim that entering hell means crossing the sirat, which is above hell and could technically be argued to be in hell, then that is okay.” http://www.call-to-monotheism.com/are_all_muslims_going_to_enter_hell_

It is the inevitable decree of your Lord that every one of you will be taken to hell. Sura 19.71. Muhammad Sarwar

adam 7
15-03-2012, 11:05 AM
WHY DOES POLICE PUNISH CRIMINALS WITH JAIL AND DEATH PENALTY IN USA? WHY WHY WHY:rolleyes: BEACUSE THEY ARE CRIMINALS, THAT IS WHY GOD PUNISH ALSO, IF THEY DIE AS CRIMINALS WHAT CAN THEY EXPECT....

I dont agree with the death penalty. You can tell a lot about a society in how it treats its criminals.

I think much of the fixation with heaven and hell has to do with superiority complex.


Religious groups like to make their followers feel special.

To say that they are the only ones to God to heaven.

And the rest of humanity is going to hell fire.

This is a tactic of mind control. Its designed to keep people in a sheep pen.


This is why Christians call themselves sheep and they call God a shepherd


Its makes absolutely no sense


A loving deity would no permit the torture of innocent people.

It is very unfair to punish someone for being born in the wrong place and in the wrong time.


This would be the actions of an evil demon, not some loving God.


You might think you are "saved" cause you follow the quran, the writings of the followers of a 7th century "prophet".


But what about me. I know no muslims. Not one.

People where I live think muslims are nuts.


Now I dont believe the mainstream media, and the lies about Afghanistan, Syria, etc. I am too intelligent for that.

But Am I to be sent to hell for being born in the wrong place???

Think on.

itruth
15-03-2012, 11:05 AM
Originally qquoted by ciko:
A Scientific Approach on Al-Sirat (the bridge over Hell)
Introduction

I am aware that I could be completely wrong about what I say here, because there is no way of proving it and this is just a theory of mine

rofl!!!

Too funny.

Heres another funny quote from the author:

It is believed to be a “bridge over Hell”. The Quran does not say anything about this bridge, except in Surah 19 Verse 71, which could possibly be referring to the bridge.

Sura 19.71 makes no mention of any bridge:

"Wa-in minkum illa wariduha kana AAala rabbika hatman maqdiyyan "

This is another classic case of someone trying to build an argument based on the lies they have been told by islamic dawists.

Muslim Cleric: How to Lie about Islam Muslim Cleric: How to Lie about Islam - YouTube


Teaching muslim children how to lie: (truely disgusting)
Islamic Education-Islamic Cleric Mahmoud El Masri teaches children according to the Prophet Sunnah Islamic Education-Islamic Cleric Mahmoud El Masri teaches children according to the Prophet Sunnah - YouTube

major seven
15-03-2012, 11:13 AM
Lucy
There is nothing "wierd" about what I do, by American standards.

You Amercians like to torture and sexually assault your Islamic victims before you kill them.





M7
LOL!!!
Oh Yeah! Here We Go!
Ole Lucy has his soapbox out and his favorite pictures from his speed dial list.

You and your Propaganda BULLSHIT!

"American Standards"? "You Americans"?

Hows about we start on "English Standards" and "You English" for a change?

How about a Thesis on "English Imperialism and its Effect on Indigenous Cultures Around The World"

Lets go ask the Australian Aborigines and New Zealand Maori how they faired under English rule?

Right! Lets ask whats left of the early tribes of North American Indians from around 1620 and even before from the whipped out of England religious fanatics.

Hell Boy! You can't even treat your own White English Colonists in a civil enough manner to the point where we have to go and kick your Phony Redcoat Asses all over hill and dale and then send your Dumb Asses packing.

TWICE??? LOL!

Historically, even the French treated the American Natives more fairly.

Yeah Man! You Brits are a real Class Act.





Lucy
I only practice BDSM with consenting adults; if I collar and chain anyone and fuck them, it is because they want me to; and I expect them to thank me and love me; it is all about mutual erotic pleasure really or nobody would ever consent to that; that is more than I can say for the way the Americans treat their Muslim POW's.





M7
:D
Well, That was all rather Nauseating.

If you need collars and chains and whips and pain and shit in order to have "mutual erotic pleasure" than by all means, Have A Ball! LOL!





Lucy
Just adding some erotic photos to outrage our Muslim contributors. I am sure you'll understand.




M7
Oh sure I do!
Not to mention the rest of the planet.

Who would expect anything less from a half Gay B&D and S&M Freak who doesn't consider him/her self Weird in any way whatsoever?





Lucy
With regards to "NAKED Butt People" don't you like your women naked and fully equipped with an ass, or do you prefer your women fully clothed and with their asses surgically removed? We could pioneer a new porn genre for Americans with fully clothed women with no asses, but I don't think it would work.





M7
LOL!
You seem to have missed the Train on WHO the "NAKED Butt People are, but thats cool.
You can try to catch the next one later.

But I reckon thats understandable considering you are half Gay with a fixation on NAKED Butts anyway, Eh What?





Lucy
You might be a homophobic smart ass bitch, but I suspect that if you were an American in a bar in London, that you would treat me in a civil manner and that you would rather buy me a beer and talk to me than hang me or stone me to death, and the feeling would be mutual; that is the advantage of having been raised in a tolerant society; that is not the case in the Muslim world where they would probably want to behead both of us.






M7
ME? A Homophobe?
Nah! I could care less if your weenie rots off and falls on the floor.





Lucy
Anyway, you have Americans have gays in the US military; they probably hate the Muslims more than the straight guys (not that I believe that "anyone" is 100% straight, whatever they say). If the US military changed their policy and "only" allowed gay, lesbian, bisexul and transsexuals into the military, you would have a real pack dog of angry bitches would would slaughter Muslims without remorse; you don't even need big macho guys anymore; some little queer guy with an M16 would suffice.






M7
Well, you can now say you have met your first 100% Straight Guy.

ME! :D

Yeah! I'm sure the muslims will run SCREAMING when they see a bunch of guys in Pink military fatigues running after them in high heels and waving their handbags in the air with one hand while trying to keep their wigs in place with the other. :D

Thanks a LOT for THAT picture.

:D

ciko
15-03-2012, 11:34 AM
I dont agree with the death penalty. You can tell a lot about a society in how it treats its criminals.

I think much of the fixation with heaven and hell has to do with superiority complex.


Religious groups like to make their followers feel special.

To say that they are the only ones to God to heaven.

And the rest of humanity is going to hell fire.

This is a tactic of mind control. Its designed to keep people in a sheep pen.


This is why Christians call themselves sheep and they call God a shepherd


Its makes absolutely no sense


A loving deity would no permit the torture of innocent people.

It is very unfair to punish someone for being born in the wrong place and in the wrong time.


This would be the actions of an evil demon, not some loving God.


You might think you are "saved" cause you follow the quran, the writings of the followers of a 7th century "prophet".


But what about me. I know no muslims. Not one.

People where I live think muslims are nuts.


Now I dont believe the mainstream media, and the lies about Afghanistan, Syria, etc. I am too intelligent for that.

But Am I to be sent to hell for being born in the wrong place???

Think on.


It is very unfair to punish someone for being born in the wrong place and in the wrong time.

but you dont understand man, of course that is unfair, God does not punish in that way, God punish when you are criminal, fight against God and his messengers, doing a lot of sins without repenting to God...

but you dont listen to me, that is why you dont understand those stuff how it really works....

adam 7
15-03-2012, 12:00 PM
God punish when you are criminal, fight against God and his messengers, ..

If I was to go to the high street and announce to people that I am God's messenger, what do you think people would think?


Perhaps I could tell them I split the moon in two.

And I could add that I travelled on a flying donkey to heaven to chat about good times with Abraham and Jesus.

What would people say to this?


Maybe instead I could tell them I was the way and the truth and the life. Tell them that I can turn some fishes and loaves into a whole mountain of food and feed 5000 people.

If you believe in me you go to heaven, otherwise God is going to punish you with hell fire.


If anyone today went round talking like this they would rightly be called insane and put in a mental institution.

Sorry to burst your bubble here. But that is the reality of these prophets.

They were no different to this. They were just ordinary people with mental problems with suffered from religious delusions and hearing voices in their heads.

charlesb
15-03-2012, 12:07 PM
If I was to go to the high street and announce to people that I am God's messenger, what do you think people would think?

They would think you're a liar.
Yet that does not mean that prophets don't exist.

For Christ also said "do not give your pearls to pigs."

On the basis that the average Briton approves of homosexuality, has had multiple sexual partners, and votes for one of the three main political parties, the average Briton is a "pig."

Moral: don't expect to see prophets in the streets.

adam 7
15-03-2012, 12:24 PM
They would think you're a liar.
Yet that does not mean that prophets don't exist.

Im just trying to find a rational explanation for the religious phenomenon.

If someone claims to be God's messenger. You wouldn't just take their word for it.

I understand the proof that Muhammed gave that he was God's messenger, was the night journey by flying horse to heaven.

He also split the moon in two.

Now for us, these are made up stories. And are no proof at all.

Jesus proved he was the son of God by turning water in wine and walking on water, and many other miracles.

Again we have no reason to believe that these also arent made up stories.

Faith healers cure people all the time of pschosamatic illnesses.

People like Benny Hinn today claim to raise people from the dead and make the blind see etc.

Whether we view this as real or not, I think depends to an extent on religious conditioning.

I was baptised as a child, and sent to Sunday school. It wasnt until I was older that I was able to crically evaluate the truth of what I was taught.

Today there is a great awakening under foot. People are rejecting the old religious traditions, and are leaving traditional church.

The same will be the case for Islam too, if they have access to a free internet and the free information that goes with it, to enable them to critically evaluate what they are taught.

charlesb
15-03-2012, 12:38 PM
Im just trying to find a rational explanation for the religious phenomenon.

If someone claims to be God's messenger. You wouldn't just take their word for it.

I understand the proof that Muhammed gave that he was God's messenger, was the night journey by flying horse to heaven.

He also split the moon in two.

He also murdered, robbed, tortured, raped and committed adultery. Some prophet.


Now for us, these are made up stories. And are no proof at all.

Jesus proved he was the son of God by turning water in wine and walking on water, and many other miracles.

Again we have no reason to believe that these also arent made up stories.

No reason to believe that they are, because ultimately he proved his credentials by rising from the dead. No-one ever located his body to disprove it.


Faith healers cure people all the time of pschosamatic illnesses.

People like Benny Hinn today claim to raise people from the dead and make the blind see etc.

Whether we view this as real or not, I think depends to an extent on religious conditioning.

No, we are not actually required to hold any opinion as to the likes of Benny Hinn etc. There are many deluded people though, who cannot distinguish between a false prophet and a true prophet. Include all muslims on that.


I was baptised as a child, and sent to Sunday school. It wasnt until I was older that I was able to crically evaluate the truth of what I was taught.

Today there is a great awakening under foot. People are rejecting the old religious traditions, and are leaving traditional church.

The same will be the case for Islam too, if they have access to a free internet and the free information that goes with it, to enable them to critically evaluate what they are taught.
The reason people are leaving the traditional church is because there are no prophets in it. The CofE has returned to its pagan origins, and Roman Catholicism is as wierd as ever with its idoltary of the papacy.

The true church, the true prophets, are hard to find. But if you look hard for them, you will find them, to be sure.

ciko
15-03-2012, 12:56 PM
If I was to go to the high street and announce to people that I am God's messenger, what do you think people would think?


Perhaps I could tell them I split the moon in two.

And I could add that I travelled on a flying donkey to heaven to chat about good times with Abraham and Jesus.

What would people say to this?


If I was to go to the high street and announce to people that I am God's messenger, what do you think people would think?

some say you are stupid some would say ,give me proof.

It was same with muhammed, caled him crazy , and some said give me proof, BUT HE GAVE THEM A PROOF, NOT ON, BUT MANY, ONE OF THEM WAS SPLITTING MOON IN TWO, LIKE MOSES SPLITTED OCEAN IN TWO BY GOD PERMISSION,

BUT MOON HAS SPLIT

http://www.answering-christianity.com/split_moon_12202006.jpg

What does NASA say about Moon's ancient past, Moon splitting in Quran - YouTube

WHAT EVIDENCE COULD YOU PROVIDE????????

And I could add that I travelled on a flying donkey to heaven

DONT LIE, muhammed never said flying donkey, he said creature smaller than horse bigger than donkey.

Im just trying to find a rational explanation for the religious phenomenon.

If someone claims to be God's messenger. You wouldn't just take their word for it.

I understand the proof that Muhammed gave that he was God's messenger, was the night journey by flying horse to heaven.

He also split the moon in two.

Now for us, these are made up stories. And are no proof at all.

Jesus proved he was the son of God by turning water in wine and walking on water, and many other miracles.

Again we have no reason to believe that these also arent made up stories.

Faith healers cure people all the time of pschosamatic illnesses.

People like Benny Hinn today claim to raise people from the dead and make the blind see etc.

Whether we view this as real or not, I think depends to an extent on religious conditioning.

I was baptised as a child, and sent to Sunday school. It wasnt until I was older that I was able to crically evaluate the truth of what I was taught.

Today there is a great awakening under foot. People are rejecting the old religious traditions, and are leaving traditional church.

The same will be the case for Islam too, if they have access to a free internet and the free information that goes with it, to enable them to critically evaluate what they are taught.


Im just trying to find a rational explanation for the religious phenomenon.

you will never find it, trust me, you dont listen, if you could listen more and think then you would understand , but you will never find rational explanation for the religious phenomenon.

i have the answers but you can never find them


I understand the proof that Muhammed gave that he was God's messenger, was the night journey by flying horse to heaven.

now you are saying flying horse, but didn't you said flying donkey ? come on man, you guess to much...i said, it is not good for your health.


He also split the moon in two.

Now for us, these are made up stories. And are no proof at all.

but i have proof

http://www.answering-christianity.com/split_moon_12202006.jpg

What does NASA say about Moon's ancient past, Moon splitting in Quran - YouTube

ciko
15-03-2012, 01:03 PM
Adam 7

i have question for you,:D

what would God do to Hitler, shall he put him in paradise or Hell?

itruth
15-03-2012, 01:55 PM
some say you are stupid some would say ,give me proof.

It was same with muhammed, caled him crazy , and some said give me proof, BUT HE GAVE THEM A PROOF, NOT ON, BUT MANY, ONE OF THEM WAS SPLITTING MOON IN TWO, LIKE MOSES SPLITTED OCEAN IN TWO BY GOD PERMISSION,

BUT MOON HAS SPLIT

http://www.answering-christianity.com/split_moon_12202006.jpg

What does NASA say about Moon's ancient past, Moon splitting in Quran - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvljl2TlsY4)

WHAT EVIDENCE COULD YOU PROVIDE????????

but i have proof

http://www.answering-christianity.com/split_moon_12202006.jpg

What does NASA say about Moon's ancient past, Moon splitting in Quran - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gvljl2TlsY4)


Besides the fact that every single miracle preformed by the true prophets WAS FOR A REAL REASON, like the red sea being split so that the israelites could cross, jesus walking on water to show the disciples such things could be achieved by the disciples, what was the purpose of muhummad spliting the moon, if indeed he did split the moon?

Where does the koran say muhummad preformed miracles?

There is no point us getting into a debate over the koran verses which show people asking why no miracles were sent to muhummad, and the verses where allah is explaining why he sent no miracles. This is very simple to clear this up, where in the koran does it say muhummad preformed miracles?

We present those citations here in order for our readers to see for themselves the Quran’s outright denial that Muhammad was able to perform the miraculous. http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Azmy/mhd_miracles.htm

koran says mohamed did not performed miracles koran says mohamed did not performed miracles - YouTube

itruth
15-03-2012, 02:03 PM
Adam 7

i have question for you,:D

what would God do to Hitler, shall he put him in paradise or Hell?

Adolf hitler wished europe was conqured by islam. He also admired islam and its martyrdom complext.

Muhummad and hitler are very simular, so are their books.

“When the Mohammedans attempted to penetrate beyond France and into Central Europe during the eight century when they were driven back at battle of Tours. Had the Arabs won this battle, the world would be Mohammedan today. For theirs was a religion that believed in spreading the faith by sword and subjugating all nations to that faith. The Germanic people would have become heirs to that religion. Such a creed was perfectly suited to the Germanic temperament.” Adolf Hitler quoted by Albert Speer, from Inside the Third Reich, page 96.


Mein Kampf & Quran Part 42 42 Mein Kampf & Quran - Part 42 - YouTube

Quran is Mein Kampf, Part 2 Al Rassooli/Roth, 26 Oct: Quran is Mein Kampf, Part 2 - YouTube

itruth
15-03-2012, 02:06 PM
Shocking simularites between muhummad and hitler:


Der fuhrer's methods for accomplishing his madness were identical to der prophet's. Mein Kampf:676 "Spiritual terror...men must threaten and dominate men by compulsion. Compulsion is only broken by compulsion and terror by terror." On the road to power, compulsion follows seduction. And the lever that coerces compulsion is terror. Hitler simply followed Muhammad's path. Bukhari:V4B52N220 "Allah's Apostle said, 'I have been made victorious with terror.'"

Mein Kampf:677 "Since our view of life will never share power with another, it cannot co-operate with the existing doctrines it condemns. It is obliged to fight by all available means until the entire world of hostile ideas collapses." Throughout the entirety of the Islamic era we have heard a singular battle cry: Bukhari:V4B53N386 "Our Prophet, the Messenger of our Lord, ordered us to fight you till you worship Allah Alone." Both men envisioned an eternal battle and total submission.

Mein Kampf:677 "This corrosive fight...for the new program and new view of life [religion] demands determined fighters...and a forceful fighting organization. The recipe for a favorable result requires the formulation of a declaration of war against all existing order [religions and doctrines], and against all existing conceptions of life in general." Just like Islam, it was the Nazis against the world. The "House of Islam" forever battles the "House of War." Tabari IX:69 "He who believes in Allah and His Messenger has protected his life and possessions from us. As for those who disbelieve, we will fight them forever in the Cause of Allah. Killing them is a small matter to us."

The Nazis usurped Muhammad's dogma. The recipe of "submit and obey" was perfect for empowering their tyrant. Mein Kampf:679 "The strength of a party lies in the disciplined obedience of the members to follow their leadership. The decisive factors are leadership and discipline. When troops battle one another, the victorious one will be that which is blindly obedient to the Superior Leader." Islam says: Ishaq:601 "The best men launch spears as if they were swords. They peer forward unweariedly. They devote their lives to their Prophet. In hand-to-hand fighting and cavalry attacks they purify themselves with the blood of the infidels. They consider that an act of piety."

It is hard to distinguish which poligious doctrine was more fixated on violence. Mein Kampf:680 "In order to lead a view of life to victory, we have to transform it into a fighting movement." Ishaq:587 "Our onslaught will not be a weak faltering affair. We shall fight as long as we live. We will fight until you turn to Islam, humbly seeking refuge. We will fight not caring whom we meet. We will fight whether we destroy ancient holdings or newly gotten gains. We have cut off every opponent's nose and ears with our swords. We have driven them violently before us at the command of Allah and Islam. We will fight until our religion is established. And we will plunder them for they must suffer disgrace."

Like Muhammad, Hitler seduced men before he coerced them. He made promises but never delivered. Mein Kampf:683 "The Party with its program of twenty-five points is unshakable." Ten of the twenty-five Nazi pillars were financial inducements, bribes if you will. Twelve were control mechanisms. Three were focused on fighting. The following Islamic concepts made Hitler's list in Mein Kampf : "abrogation," "duty," "annulment of treaties," the "confiscation of war booty," profit sharing or "distribution of spoils," the party's cut or "fifth," "conquest," "expulsion of nonbelievers," "alms" or pensions for believers, "Jewish businesses to be looted and divided," "Jewish land to become communal," a "ban on Jewish usury," "Jews to be punished by death," "the establishment of the laws" of der Fuhrer," the formation of "an army," "restrictions on journalists," and a "recasting of Christianity." Apart from time and place, der fuhrer's list was an awful lot like der prophet's.

Both men were serious about their personal views. It was their way or the highway. Mein Kampf:698 "The N.S.G.W.P. must not become a bailiff of public opinion, but its ruler. It must not be the masse.' slave, but their master!" Muhammad wasn't much of a listener either. Qur'an 47.21 "Were they to obey, showing their obedience in modest speech, after the matter of preparation for Jihad had been determined for them, it would have been better."

If the definition of propaganda is artful deceit, Hitler and Muhammad were grand masters. Mein Kampf:701 "On behalf of our view of life I will strike the weapon of reply from the enemy's hand personally." And how might der fuhrer accomplish this? Mein Kampf:702 "Skillful propaganda.... The best proof of this was furnished by the success of the propaganda, introduced by me, against the peace treaty of Versailles. I had before me a surging crowd filled with most sacred indignation and utter wrath. A great lie had been torn out of the brains and hearts of a multitude, and in its stead, a truth had been implanted.... In this meeting I became familiar with the pathos and the gestures which mesmerizing a thousand people demands." Islam and Nazism share an unhealthy trait, the willingness to link "sacred" to "wrath." And neither can be trusted as they are willing to abrogate treaties which they do not like. Qur'an 9.3 "And a declaration from Allah and His Messenger to all mankind: 'Allah is free from all treaty obligations with non-Muslims and so is His Messenger."

Confirming the role of seductive verbal expression in achieving victory, der fuhrer shared: Mein Kampf:704 "The emphasis was put on the spoken word because only it is in a position to bring about great changes for general psychological reasons. Enormous world revolutionary events have not been brought about by the written word, but by the spoken word." Mein Kampf:704 "The agitatory activity of speech is bound to have mass influence." Hitler went on to say that spoken words were like pictures because they communicate more vividly and faster than text. His mentor never allowed his words to be written or read, only spoken. And that's because: Bukhari:V6B60N662 "Allah's Apostle said, 'Some eloquent speech is as effective as magic.'" Bukhari:V9B87N127 "The Prophet said, 'I have been given the keys of eloquent speech and given victory with terror so the treasures of the earth were given to me.'"

Expounding upon the merits of Muhammad's situational scriptures, der fuhrer said, Mein Kampf:706 "The great speaker senses the words that he needs to use in order to impassion his audience. If he errs he has the opportunity for correction. He can read his listener.' expressions to see if they understand, and can repeat his message until he has convinced them of the correctness of what he has said." This reminds me of the 8th surah in which Muhammad changed his presentation of the power of Islamic terror on the fly. When his militants appeared displeased with Allah's proclamation, Muhammad corrected the error and lessened the odds. Ishaq:326 "Abdullah told me that when this verse came down it was a shock to the Muslims who took it hard. They were afraid, as the odds were too great. So Allah relieved them and cancelled the verse with another: 'Now has Allah relieved you and He knows that there is a weakness among you, so if there are 100 [rather than 20] they shall vanquish 200.'" The 66th verse corrected the 65th. Instant abrogation. Just add grumbling.

Der fuhrer also explained why an oral recital had to be as repetitive as the Qur'an - a word which means "to recite." Mein Kampf:706 "The great speaker will repeat his message so often, with so many examples, he will overcome objections and refute them before they are even raised." While the Mecca surahs were fixated on pain and punishment, with the vast majority of the 1,000 repetitions occurring therein, the Medina themes were no less repetitive. They bellowed: submit, obey, perform, pay, and fight.

Hitler and Muhammad learned that their demonic message was most effective when it was revealed in the darkness of night. Mein Kampf:710 "I was astonished by how much better my message was received at night.... It's a mysterious magic that allows an encroachment upon man's free will. In the evening they succumb more easily to the dominating force of a stronger will. The domineering apostolic nature weakens their resistance." Islam's apostle used the same psychology to weaken men's resistance: Qur'an 73.1 "Keep watch all the night except a little, reciting the Qur'an as it ought to be recited in slow, measured rhythmic tones. We will soon entrust you with Our weighty Word. Surely the night is the most devout way when the soul is most receptive and the words are the most telling." The most telling line, "magic allows an encroachment upon man's free will," exposes the dark spirit's agenda. This is why Islam and Nazism are fatalistic and why they are devoted to submission and obedience. If deceit encroaches on man's free will, we lose our ability to choose Yahweh and to accept his gift of eternal life. When we lose our free will, we lose the ability to love and to know God. When we lose the ability to choose, we die. It isn't a coincidence that history's least-free poligious communities have succumbed to doctrines of submission. Death and destruction was not only predictable, it was a predetermined consequence.

Hitler, like his mentor, despised scribes. Mein Kampf:712 "The average sparrow brain of the scribbler produces intellectual babble." Muhammad dispensed with the verbal assault. He simply killed them.

Mein Kampf:715 "The [mosque] meeting is necessary if only because new adherents of a new movement feel lonely and are easily seized with the fear of being alone. Brought together they sense a greater community.... They are carried away by the powerful effect of the suggestive intoxication and enthusiasm of the others. The crowd confirms the correctness of the new doctrine in his mind and removes doubt. He then succumbs to the magic seductive influence of the [mosque] meeting." Mein Kampf:717 "God be praised and thanked that unspoilt people avoid bourgeois mass meetings as the Devil avoids holy water." Togetherness can be as seductive as it is coercive. It is the essence of mob mentality. An evil person with a bad idea can be parlayed into an eruption of uncontrollable rage. Ishaq:580 "Our strong warriors obey his orders to the letter. By us Allah's religion is undeniably strong. You would think when our horses gallop with bits in their mouths that the sounds of demons are among them. The day we trod down the unbelievers, there was no deviation or turning from the Apostle's order. During the battle the people heard our exhortations to fight and the smashing of skulls by swords that sent heads flying. We severed necks with a warrior's blow. Often we have left the slain cut to pieces and a widow crying 'ala.' over her mutilated husband." The study of Islam, like Nazism, is an exposé on gang mentality. Uncorrupted by Islam, or left free to choose, few if any Arabs would have been capable of perpetrating such horrific deeds. Yet as part of Muhammad's gang of ghouls, they fed off each other's rage.

Terror and piracy became good because everyone they knew was a terrorizing pirate. This is why Christianity is personal - not collective. The Greek word ekklesia that we errantly translate "Church" really means "a calling out."

Then sounding like Muhammad in Mecca, der fuhrer preached these words in Munich, Mein Kampf:715 "The man who is the first representative of a new doctrine is exposed to serious oppression and urgently needs the strengthening that lies in the conviction of being a fighter in an embracing body." Muhammad found his soul mates in Medina. Ishaq:596 "You came to us discredited, when your message was rejected and we believed you. You were forsaken and deserted and we assisted you. You were a fugitive and we took you in, sheltering you. You were poor and in need and we comforted you."

Mein Kampf:720 "It was important to introduce blind discipline into our meetings and to safeguard the authority of the leader. The brutal recklessness of our guards were able to thwart the enemy's hecklers." Speaking as if he were Muhammad, Hitler said, Mein Kampf:726 "Anyone who provoked us was thrown out ruthlessly. We would not tolerate any provocation" Mein Kampf:728 "Before they could finish a sentence they would find themselves thrown outside the hall." It was no different in Muhammad's day. Ishaq:246 "Hypocrites used to assemble in the mosque and listen to the stories of the Muslims and laugh and scoff at their religion. So Muhammad ordered that they should be ejected. They were thrown out with great violence. Abu went to Amr, took his foot and dragged him out of the mosque. Another Muslim slapped a man's face while dragging him forcefully, knocking him down. One was pulled violently by his hair. 'Don't come near the Apostle's mosque again, for you are unclean.'" Even today, they fear truth.

Der fuhrer and der prophet had security detachments. Hitler called the first of these "Storm Troops." Mein Kampf:729 "I had a protective detachment as a supervision service. They were all young Party comrades who were instructed and trained to the effect that terror can be broken only by terror. By fighting for our idea, they protected me with their last drop of blood. They were saturated with the doctrine. We found that the best weapon of defense was the attack. We became known not as a debating club but as a fighting community. My boys shined when I made clear to them the necessity of their mission, assuring them again and again that all the wisdom in the world will remain futile if force does not enter its service, defending and protecting it. The Goddess of Peace can only march side by side with the God of War."

Muhammad's thugs weren't quite as articulate, but they were no less loyal. Ishaq:580 "We helped Allah's Apostle, angry on his account, with a thousand warriors. We carried his flag on the end of our lances. We were his helpers, protecting his banner in deadly combat. We dyed it with blood, for that was its color. We were the Prophet's right arm in Islam. We were his bodyguards before other troops served him. We helped him against his opponents. Allah richly rewarded that fine Prophet Muhammad."

Like the good Muslims who left their homes to fight jihad for Muhammad, Hitler had helpers too: Mein Kampf:730 "And how these boys stood up! Like a swarm of hornets they stormed upon the mockers at our meeting incurring wounds and making sacrifices so that they made a path for the holy mission of our movement." Mein Kampf:747 "The boys of the Storm Troop performed their duty. They attacked like wolves.... Our opponents learned a lesson they will never forget." This is reminiscent of the 8th surah which says: "Inflict upon them such a defeat as will be a lesson for others, that they may be warned." And the Hadith which substituted one pest for another. Ishaq:564 "The Muslims stole our goods and divided them. Their spears pierced us not once but twice. Their squadrons came at us like a swarm of locusts. Were it not for the religion of Muhammad's people, their cavalry would never have attacked us."

Hitler dedicates a number of pages to his personal involvement in choosing the Nazi colors (black and red, symbolizing deceit and blood) and his swastika. Der fuhrer's fixation on his flag was no different than the prophet's fixation on his war banners which we were told were white, black, and blood red. Mein Kampf:733 "They became a symbol for the fight of the future.... It had the effect of a flaming torch." Just as Muhammad had usurped the concept of war banners from his pagan ancestor Qusayy, Hitler recycled an old tradition. Mein Kampf:736 "The swastika had been used as a symbol of the Germanic [pagan] religion by folkish groups in primitive cults." Even in the details, they were indistinguishable.

This next passage encapsulates Muhammad's reason for founding Islam. Mein Kampf:752 "Destiny chooses the Man and Destiny gives him the final victory. Dissatisfied with the religious life of his people, he longs for a renovation. Based upon his inspiration he is called upon to present a solution for this religious distress, appearing like a prophet of a new doctrine and as a fighter against the existing ones." There is no more effective means to rule people than to claim that you are called to be "god's" prophet, and then to mix your poison with the passion of a pugilist. Ishaq:530 "Get out of his way, you infidel unbelievers. Every good thing goes with His Apostle. O Lord, I believe in his word. I know Allah's [Fate's, a.k.a. Satan's] truth in accepting it. We will fight you about its interpretations as we have fought you about its revelation with strokes that will remove heads from shoulders and make enemies of friends."

If you were to replace Nature with Allah, this Hitlerism could be Qur'anic. Mein Kampf:752 "The strongest man is chosen for fulfilling the great mission. One Man is the One who is exclusively called upon." Mein Kampf:753 "They have the purest faith in their own mission, they consider themselves obliged to go their own way without considering others. Nature Herself, in Her inexorable logic, makes the decision by prompting fights and by leading that movement to the goal that has been chosen by the clearest, shortest, and surest way." Qur'an 59.6 "Allah gives his Messenger Lordship and Power over whomever He wills." Qur'an 49.7 "And know that among you is Allah's Messenger: were he to follow your (wishes), you would fall into misfortune...."

By promising "Valhalla," a seductive, pagan, and hedonistic "paradise" to those who sacrificed their lives for the "cause," the second tyrant mirrored the first. Mein Kampf:768 "It is certain that each hero who comes forward voluntarily, and dies the sacred death of martyrdom climbs the steps to Valhalla." This is no different than: Qur'an 4.74 "Let those who fight in the Cause of Allah sell the life of this world for the hereafter. To him who fights in the Cause of Allah, whether he is slain or gets victory - soon shall We give him a great reward."

Speaking of the Germans who rejected him, Hitler's never-ending argument replicates Muhammad's: Mein Kampf:768 "They are 'scum.' 'rabble, deserters, and pimps who shunned the light.' 'hyenas.' 'freeloaders.' 'thieves, and duty shirkers.' 'traitors,' and an 'undisciplined gang of looters, criminals, and evil rabble.'"

But alas, even Hitler had to outmaneuver and threaten the peaceful hypocrites. Mein Kampf:756 "Some people merely pretend that they are fighting for the same goal, but they do not honestly place themselves into the ranks of our movement." Qur'an 8.5 "Your Lord ordered you out of your homes to fight for the true cause even though some Muslims disliked it, and were averse to fighting. They argued with you concerning this matter even after it was made clear to them. It was as if they were being driven to their death."

Der fuhrer was as humble as der prophet. Mein Kampf:763 "One must never forget that everything that is actually great in this world has not been fought for and won by coalitions, but always by the success of One Individual victor. The religious State will never be created by compromise but only by the steel-hard willpower of one sole movement which has struggled its way against all others." Qur'an 48.1 "Verily We have granted you (Muhammad) a splendid Victory. Qur'an 48.8 "We have truly sent you (Muhammad) as a witness, as a bringer of Good News, and as a Warner: In order that you (men) may believe in Allah and His Messenger, that you may assist him and honor him, and celebrate His praise morning and evening."

Islam and Nazism seduced a sufficient number of men to become popular enough to build a coercive militant force. Both usurped pagan traditions to condition adherents and then established absolute authority over them. Mein Kampf:765 "If popularity and force unite then authority can be established more solidly based upon tradition. When popularity, force, and tradition combine, authority becomes unshakable." This is Islam in a nutshell.

Writing words that would come to haunt the world fifteen and then again seventy-seven years after they were scribed by Hitler's hand, we discover: Mein Kampf:787 "Terror which is derived from a religion can never be broken by a formal State power. It will only succumb to a new view of life that proceeds with equal boldness and determination. The State may for centuries apply the strongest means of power against a terror by which it is threatened, but in the end it will be powerless and will succumb." Hitler and Muhammad were unaware of a power stronger than hate, and of a tool more effective than terror. That force is love and its implement is truth. And that is how we must fight "terror which is derived from a religion." We must love the victims of Islam enough to free them from deceit. By emancipating mankind from Muhammad's legacy we free ourselves from its scourge.

But Hitler was right in a way. Nations like America are unable to break the back of religious terror. We are unwilling to confront a religion. But by not understanding the source of the terrorist.' rage, we eliminate them far more slowly than the religotic manufactures new ones. And even if we were to shed our ignorance, conventional defensive and offensive military tactics are counterproductive. Offensively, massive armaments and air superiority only prevail against conventional forces. Terrorists scatter, lying in wait to strike another day. And defensively, the freedoms we usurp from our citizens under the guise of "Homeland Security" only serve to create the totalitarian climate in which religious terrorists thrive.

While there is good news, I'm afraid it may be too late. To combat poligious terror we don't have to become like them, as Hitler attests. All we have to do is come to understand the deceit that drives men to such madness. Collectively, if we were to see Muhammad and his terrorist dogma Islam as we now see Hitler and Nazism, we would win the war on terror by freeing Muslims from Islam. Light extinguishes darkness, and courageous, sacrificial love overwhelms fear, hate, and terror.

While Hitler's argument was wrong, it remains seductive. A time will come, according to Bible prophets, in which America and Europe will tire of their government.' inability to thwart the continued onslaught of Islamic terror. They will be tempted, as were 1930s Germans, to employ the services of a similarly-minded tyrant to protect them. Like Hitler, this evil man will rise to prominence promising "peace." But once empowered, he'll unleash hell's fury - literally. The religotic he'll deploy will be as demonic as Nazism and Islam. Mein Kampf:981 "To end this eternal shame, people will prefer to accept the terror of the moment rather than bear an endless terror any longer."

Hitler went on to plagiarize two of Allah's favorite words. Mein Kampf:798 "What we need is not one hundred daring plotters, but many hundreds of thousands of fanatical fighters for our view of life." Mein Kampf:801 "Give the German nation six million bodies, faultlessly trained, all of them glowing with passion for the highest spirit of attack, and we will have an army." Qur'an 47.4 "Therefore, when you clash with the unbelieving Infidels in battle, strike them and overpower them. At length, when you have thoroughly subdued them, make them prisoners in bondage until the war lays down its burdens. Thus are you commanded. He lets you fight in order to test you. But those who are slain in Allah's Cause will never have their deeds go to waste." Qur'an 47.31 "We shall try you until We know those among you who are the fighters; and We shall try your reported mettle." Qur'an 47.33 "Believers, obey Allah, and obey the Messenger! Those who disbelieve and hinder men from the Cause of Allah [Jihad], He will not pardon. Do not falter; become faint-hearted, or weak-kneed, crying for peace. You have the upper hand."

Muhammad's contemporaries saw him as a lying thief and a murdering bandit. We know this because their criticisms are chronicled in the Qur'an. Hitler was not immune. His contemporaries: Mein Kampf:807 "Lovingly showered upon us the pet names: 'murderers, bandits, robbers, and criminals.' But the S.A. [Storm Troop] maintained perfect order...daring to smash the skulls in of those who resisted." The translators of Mein Kampf provided the grim details. During the formation period of Nazism (1923-1931): "The Hitlerites killed 323 Marxists and seriously wounded 750. Other Nazi rivals lost 48 men. The perpetrators of Mein Kampf suffered 86 dead and 25 wounded." But as with the initial Islamic terrorist raids perpetrated by Muhammad, one murder quickly led to another. Death became an avalanche. Scores of rotting corpses became hundreds, then thousands, then millions.

Returning to one of der prophet's favorite themes, der fuhrer protests: Mein Kampf:827 "Systematically, Jewish parasites ravish our innocent young blonde girls and thus destroy the Aryan race. Yet both Christian denominations disregard the desecration and annihilation of the noble and unique race God gave the earth. It is not important whether Protestants vanquish Catholics or Catholics vanquish Protestants, but whether Aryans survive. Any who reject his work thereby declares war on the Lord's creation and upon his divine will." Ishaq:262 "Some Muslims remained friends with the Jews, so Allah sent down a Qur'an forbidding them to take Jews as friends. From their mouths hatred has already shown itself and what they conceal is worse." Qur'an 2.59 "We sent a plague upon the Jews from heaven, for their evil-doing." Qur'an 5.82 "You will find the Jews and disbelievers [defined as Christians in 5:73] the most vehement in hatred for the Muslims."

Mein Kampf:845 "Nazism must claim the right to force its principles on the whole and educate everyone about its ideas and thoughts without regard to previous boundaries." This is an order to impose Nazism on the world and then to indoctrinate the victims. Bukhari:V4B52N196 "Allah's Apostle said, 'I have been ordered to fight the people till they say, "None has the right to be worshipped but Allah."'

Speaking immodestly of how he created his religotic, Hitler shares some extremely relevant insights: Mein Kampf:848 "Great theorists are only in the rarest cases great organizers. The Greatness of the program-maker [religious founder] lies in the recognition and in the establishment of abstractly correct rules, while the organizer has to be a psychologist. He has to take man as he is, and thus must know him. He must not over evaluate him. He must try to account for his weakness and bestial nature so that the program becomes a strong, constant force, suitable for carrying an idea and paving its way to success." Hitler's words bind him to Muhammad and separate both men from Moses and Christ. Islam and Nazism see man as lowly and replaceable. They appeal to man's weakness and bestial nature. They seduce men into becoming a militant force for the benefit of the program-maker. Hitler was even suggesting that Islam was made dimwitted and bestial on purpose. It was as dumb and visceral as the men it was perpetrated upon.

The reason the word "religion" can't be found in the Old Testament and is only used negatively in the New Testament is that Judeo-Christianity is not a religion, a movement, a cause, a mission, or a program. It's a relationship that focuses on the spirit, not the flesh.

Mein Kampf:848 "Rarely is a great theorist a great leader. More usually he is an agitator who shows the ability of imparting an idea to the masses as a psychologist and demagogue. For to lead means to be able to move [seduce] the masses." While I wouldn't go so far as to say that Muhammad was a great theorist, leader, or psychologist, he was certainly an agitator and demagogue. And two out of five was sufficient to "move the masses."

Hitler glorified himself using similar terms to those used by Islamic apologists to elevate Muhammad's status. Mein Kampf:849 "The combination of the theorist [prophet], organizer [politician], and leader [general] in one person is the rarest thing to be found on this globe. This combination makes the Great Man."

By calling his message "propaganda," Hitler was being more honest with his audience than was Muhammad. Both knew that they were lying; one had the courtesy to tell us. Mein Kampf:851 "The first task of propaganda [Qur'an recitals] is the winning of people for the future organization [Islam]. The first task of the organization [Islam] is the winning of people for the continuation of propaganda. The second task of propaganda [the Qur'an] is the destruction of existing doctrines [Judeo-Christianity]. The second task of the organization must be the fight for power [Muslim militancy] so that by it will achieve the final success of the doctrine [world religious conquest - total submission]." Tabari IX:82 "The Messenger sent Khalid with an army of 400 and ordered him to invite people to Islam before he fought them. If they were to respond and submit, he was to teach them the Book of Allah, the Sunnah of His Prophet, and the requirements of Islam. If they should decline, then he was to fight them." Ishaq:245 "The Apostle used to say, 'Their religion will never march with ours.'"

Mein Kampf:851 "The most striking success of the revolution of a view of life will always be won whenever the new view of life [religotic] is taught [dictated] to all people, and if necessary, is forced upon them." Neville Chamberlain gave this man the high ground of Czechoslovakia thinking that it would satiate his cravings. That proved as fatal as George Bush's "Road Map to Peace," in which he proposed to give the high ground of Israel to the Muslims. One doctrine has, and the other doctrine will, force its view of life on everyone within its reach. Tabari IX:86 "Give the people the good news of Paradise and the way to attain it. Warn them of the Hell-Fire and the way to earn it. Teach them the rites of the hajj.... He orders you to offer prayer at the appropriate times with proper bowing and humility.... He orders you to give one fifth of Allah's booty and pay the zakat tax. It is enjoined on the faithful from their land and property." Qur'an 8.39 "Fight them until the only religion is Islam." When will we learn to read the words on the page? When will we come to understand that tolerating evil leads to disaster?

Islam and Nazism are intolerant, dictatorial fighting machines. Mein Kampf:852 "The highest task of the organization is to see to it that no kind of internal disagreements among the members of the movement weaken the work of the movement. The spirit of determined aggression must not die out. It must be constantly renewed and fortified. It must never lose its fighting force and must propagate the idea with determination and attack." Mein Kampf:855 "The more radical and inciting my propaganda was, the more it frightened off the weaklings [hypocrites] and prevented them from pushing into the nucleus of our organization." Hitler would have loved this poem: Ishaq:572 "Muhammad is the man, an Apostle of my Lord who errs not. Any who would rival him must fail. Evil was the state of our enemy so they lost the day. We came upon them like lions from the thickets. The armies of Allah came openly, flying at them in rage, so they could not get away. We destroyed them and forced them to surrender. In the former days there was no battle like this; their blood flowed freely. We slew them and left them in the dust. Those who escaped were choked with terror. A multitude of them were slain. This is Allah's war in which those who do not accept Islam will have no chance."

Mein Kampf:856 "Folkish [religious] visionaries procure leadership for themselves and collapse the plots that swirl around them. I was unanimously given the entire leadership of the movement. New articles were accepted which entrusted me with full responsibility and this proved its value in the most blissful manner," Mein Kampf:858 "All collaborators were made subordinate to me." Muslim:C22B20N4604 "We used to take oath to the Messenger of Allah that we would listen to and obey his orders. He would tell us to say in the oath: As far as it lies in my power." Qur'an 48.10 "Verily those who swear allegiance to you (Muhammad), indeed swear their allegiance to Allah.

Nazism was as peaceful as Islam. Mein Kampf:891 "To forge the sword is the task of leadership. The mission is to seek comrades in arms." Mein Kampf:892 "The correct road is to strengthen our power by winning new soil and territory." Mein Kampf:950 "We Nazis say: 'The right to soil and territory is a duty for a great nation must extend its boundaries." The clues in Mein Kampf that the Nazis were intent on world conquest were no less vague than those found in the Qur'an. Mein Kampf:953 "The German needs only to be given land by the sword." Bukhari:V4B52N288 "Expel disbelievers from the Arabian Peninsula.'" Qur'an 2.191 "Slay them wherever you find and catch them, and drive them out from where they have turned you out; for persecution and oppression are worse than slaughter." Qur'an 33.25 "Allah drove the disbelievers back...and helped the believers in battle.... He terrorized the People of the Book so that you killed some and made many captive. He made you inherit their lands, their homes, and their wealth. He gave you a country you had not traversed before."

Chamberlain wasn't the only fool. Stalin also signed a "peace treaty" with Hitler years after Mein Kampf was written. Mein Kampf:959 "The conclusion of a treaty with Russia embodies the declaration of the next war." Der fuhrer, like der prophet, enjoyed projecting his faults on his foes. "We must never forget that the rulers of present-day Russia are common bloodstained criminals, the scum of humanity. They butchered and rooted out millions of leading intellectuals with savagery. They have imposed the most frightful regime of tyranny of all time. The Marxist and their Jewish comrades combine bestial horror and an inconceivable gift for lying. They intend to impose bloody oppression on the whole world. One does not conclude a treaty with someone whose sole interest is destruction." The only difference between Hitler and Muhammad in the application of this strategy was, Hitler was right.

Der Fuhrer went on to share: "The struggle against the Jewish Marxist conquest of the world requires a clear attitude towards Soviet Russia. You cannot drive out the Devil with Beelzebub [another name for Satan]." This is similar to Lucifer impersonating Gabriel while speaking for Allah and condemning Satan.

Mein Kampf:920 "Peace treaties whose demands are a scourge to a people, frequently beat the first drum roll for a coming rebellion. The boundless extortion and shameful abasement are a means of whipping up national passions to the boiling point. The propagandistic utilization of these sadistic atrocities can remove indifference and raise indignation to the most blazing anger! Every point should be burned into the brain and heart of men until sixty million share the same hate, causing a sea of flames out of whose glow a steely will arises and the cry: 'We want more arms.' Yes, a peace treaty could do that. It becomes the greatest propaganda weapon for re-arousing the dormant spirits of a cause." Mein Kampf:920 "We must reimplant in the people the spirit of proud self-respect, manly defiance, and wrathful hate." The first Muslims didn't take kindly to peace treaties either. Tabari VIII:87/Ishaq:505 "The Companions of the Prophet had set out not doubting that they would conquer, because of a vision Muhammad had seen. Therefore, when they saw the negotiations for peace, the retreat, and the obligations the Messenger agreed to - the Muslims felt so grieved about it that they were close to despair. Some were depressed to the point of death." So... Qur'an 9.3 "An announcement from Allah and His Messenger to the people assembled on the day of the Great Pilgrimage, that Allah and His Messenger dissolve treaty obligations with the Pagans." And then... Qur'an 9.5 "Fight and kill the disbelievers wherever you find them, take them captive, torture them, lie in wait and ambush them using every stratagem of war."

Telling us how Nazi and Islamic tyrannies would use land-for-peace road-maps to propagate their fury and lead the world to war, der fuhrer explained: Mein Kampf:921 "Everything, beginning with the child's primer down to the last newspaper, every theater and every picture, every billboard and every wall, must be placed at the service of this single great mission, until the prayer of fear of our patriots cry, 'Lord deliver us.' The burning plea must come from even the smallest child: 'Almighty God, bless our arms! Lord, bless our battle!" The Muslims also had such a "prayer." Bukhari:V5B59N512 "The Prophet offered the Prayer of Fear when it was still dark and said, 'Allahu-Akbar! Khaybar is destroyed, for whenever we approach a hostile nation to fight, then evil will be the morning for those who have been warned.' The inhabitants came out running. The Prophet had their men killed, their children and women taken as captives." Bukhari:V5B59N516 "When Allah's Apostle fought or raided people we raised our voices saying, 'Allahu-Akbar! Allahu-Akbar! None has the right to be worshipped but Allah.'"

And they went off to wage holy war: Mein Kampf:932 "May Reason be our leader, The sacred duty to act gives us determination, and our highest Protector remains our faith." Mein Kampf:925 "We may suffer many bitter woes but this isn't grounds for abandoning Reason with squabbling instead of standing up with a concentrated force against the enemy." Qur'an 8.60 "And make ready against the infidels all of the power you can, including steeds of war [the Noble Qur'an says these are: tanks, planes, missiles, and artillery] to threaten the enemy of Allah and your enemy. And whatever you spend in Allah's Cause shall be repaid unto you." Qur'an 61.14 "O Muslims! Be helpers of Allah...We gave power to those who believed against their enemies, and they became the ones that prevailed." Ishaq:441 "A sharp sword in the hand of a brave man kills his adversary."

Muhammad called his dark spirit a "Protector," too, even when his armed force was preparing to swoop down, terrorize, and plunder innocents. Ishaq:510 "When the Apostle looked down he said, 'O Allah, Lord of the heavens and what they overshadow, and Lord of the Devils and what into error they throw, and Lord of the winds and what they winnow, we ask Thee for the booty of this town and its people. We take refuge in Thee from its evil and the evil of its people. Forward in the name of Allah.' He used to say this of every town he raided."

Mein Kampf ends as it begins, by praising martyrs, and wrapping overtly religious themes around their death. Mein Kampf:993 "At the end of this volume I want to bring before the eyes of our adherents and of the crusaders for our doctrine those eighteen heroes to whom I dedicated the first volume of my work, as those heroes who consciously sacrificed themselves for all of us. They must always recall the fulfillment of duty, a duty which they fulfilled with the best faith despite the consequences. I want to reckon men who by words, thoughts, and deeds dedicated their lives to the awakening of our nation. I quote from Eckard's poem: 'Father in Heaven, resolved to the death, bow we before Thee. Does any other people follow thine awful command more loyally than do we Germans? Then Eternal One, send us the victory, Mighty with Fate. Thou smilest with joy at our holy crusade."

I could give you any of a thousand Qur'an and Hadith quotes to match this, but instead, I'd like you to contemplate the overwhelming similarity of the message, the motivation, and the means Hitler and Muhammad used to attack mankind. Then consider the consequence of ignoring, or even tolerating, Hitler's "holy crusade" during the fifteen years between the time he wrote it and the time he enacted it.

If we behave similarly today, now that Muhammad's mantra has been revealed, a billion people will remain enslaved by Islam. And within a quarter century, a quarter of earth's people will die because of it. http://prophetofdoom.net/Mein_Kampf.Islam

ciko
15-03-2012, 02:19 PM
Besides the fact that every single miracle preformed by the true prophets WAS FOR A REAL REASON, like the red sea being split so that the israelites could cross, jesus walking on water to show the disciples such things could be achieved by the disciples, what was the purpose of muhummad spliting the moon, if indeed he did split the moon?

Where does the koran say muhummad preformed miracles?

There is no point us getting into a debate over the koran verses which show people asking why no miracles were sent to muhummad, and the verses where allah is explaining why he sent no miracles. This is very simple to clear this up, where in the koran does it say muhummad preformed miracles?

We present those citations here in order for our readers to see for themselves the Quran’s outright denial that Muhammad was able to perform the miraculous. http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Azmy/mhd_miracles.htm

koran says mohamed did not performed miracles koran says mohamed did not performed miracles - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l64DaUYIxVM)

your stupidity never ends :D

every muslim know that muhammed was unable to do miracles on his own, every miracle wich muhammed did was done by God trough muhammed as a evidence of his prophethood.

your delusion has no limits ;)

itruth
15-03-2012, 02:21 PM
your stupidity never ends :D

every muslim know that muhammed was unable to do miracles on his own, every miracle wich muhammed did was done by God trough muhammed as a evidence of his prophethood.

your delusion has no limits ;)

I asked you a very simple question which you ran away from.

The question AGAIN IS:

WHERE IN THE KORAN DOES IT SAY THAT MUHUMMAD PREFORMED ANY MIRACLES?

The koran specifically mentions other peoples miracles, where does koran specifically mention muhummad preforming any miracles?

Its should be very simple.


your stupidity never ends

every muslim know that muhammed was unable to do miracles on his own, every miracle wich muhammed did was done by God trough muhammed as a evidence of his prophethood.

your delusion has no limits

I think that deserves a strawman attack alert!

1) No one ever claimed anything about what muslims think.

2) No one was asking by which power muhummad preformed miracles.

'He who seeks to molest strawman is in no position to accuse others of being delusional'. itruth proverb!

ciko
15-03-2012, 02:34 PM
Besides the fact that every single miracle preformed by the true prophets WAS FOR A REAL REASON, like the red sea being split so that the israelites could cross, jesus walking on water to show the disciples such things could be achieved by the disciples, what was the purpose of muhummad spliting the moon, if indeed he did split the moon?

Where does the koran say muhummad preformed miracles?

There is no point us getting into a debate over the koran verses which show people asking why no miracles were sent to muhummad, and the verses where allah is explaining why he sent no miracles. This is very simple to clear this up, where in the koran does it say muhummad preformed miracles?

We present those citations here in order for our readers to see for themselves the Quran’s outright denial that Muhammad was able to perform the miraculous. http://www.answering-islam.org/Responses/Azmy/mhd_miracles.htm

koran says mohamed did not performed miracles koran says mohamed did not performed miracles - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l64DaUYIxVM)



Besides the fact that every single miracle preformed by the true prophets WAS FOR A REAL REASON, like the red sea being split so that the israelites could cross, jesus walking on water to show the disciples such things could be achieved by the disciples, what was the purpose of muhummad spliting the moon, if indeed he did split the moon?

Where does the koran say muhummad preformed miracles?


reason was beacuse people of Mekka wanted a miracle as a proof that muhammed was a prophet from God indeed.


Narrated Anas bin Malik: "The people of Mecca asked Allah's Apostle to show them a miracle. So he showed them the moon split in two halves between which they saw the Hiram' mountain. (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Merits of the Helpers in Madinah (Ansaar), Volume 5, Book 58, Number 208)"


http://www.answering-christianity.com/split_moon_12202006.jpg

http://www.pa.msu.edu/people/frenchj/moon/index2.html

"....It's actually a fault line formed from a moonquake in the ancient past...."

Did prophet jesus did miracles by his own power , answer is NOOOOOOOO
neighter muhammed nor moses did miracles by their own power

What does Bible say about jesus miracles

Acts 2:22 "Men of Israel, listen to this: Jesus of Nazareth was a man accredited by God to you by miracles, wonders and signs, which God did among you through him, as you yourselves know.

khepera2010
15-03-2012, 02:37 PM
Adam 7

i have question for you,:D

what would God do to Hitler, shall he put him in paradise or Hell?

Put him in hell in an adjoining room next to ol' Mo - they're both murderers!

ciko
15-03-2012, 02:38 PM
I asked you a very simple question which you ran away from.

The question AGAIN IS:

WHERE IN THE KORAN DOES IT SAY THAT MUHUMMAD PREFORMED ANY MIRACLES?

The koran specifically mentions other peoples miracles, where does koran specifically mention muhummad preforming any miracles?

Its should be very simple.




I think that deserves a strawman attack alert!

1) No one ever claimed anything about what muslims think.

2) No one was asking by which power muhummad preformed miracles.

'He who seeks to molest strawman is in no position to accuse others of being delusional'. itruth proverb!



WHERE IN THE KORAN DOES IT SAY THAT MUHUMMAD PREFORMED ANY MIRACLES?


here

God says in Quran:

"The Hour has drawn near, and the moon has been cleft asunder" [Qur'an 54:1]


Narrated Anas bin Malik: "The people of Mecca asked Allah's Apostle to show them a miracle. So he showed them the moon split in two halves between which they saw the Hiram' mountain. (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Merits of the Helpers in Madinah (Ansaar), Volume 5, Book 58, Number 208)"

Narrated 'Abdullah: "The moon was split ( into two pieces ) while we were with the Prophet in Mina. He said, "Be witnesses." Then a Piece of the moon went towards the mountain. (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Merits of the Helpers in Madinah (Ansaar), Volume 5, Book 58, Number 209)"

ciko
15-03-2012, 02:46 PM
The tradition states that the people of Mecca asked the Messenger of God (SAAS) to show them a sign, He showed them the moon in two parts, so that they could see Mt. Hira between them both.

... The Hafiz Abu Nuaym stated, "Sulayman b. Ahmad related to us, quoting Bakr b. Suhayl, quoting Abd al-Ghani b. Said, quoting Musa b. Abd al-Rahman, from Ibn Jurayj, from Ata, from Ibn Abbas- also, it came from Muqatil, from al- Dahhak, from Ibn Abbas- with reference to God's words, ?The hour has drawn near and the moon has been split asunder', as follows, ? The polytheists gathered around the Messenger of God (SAAS); they included al-Walid b. al-Mughira, Abu Jahl b. Hisham, al-As b. Wail, al-As b. Hisham, al-Aswad b. Abd Yaghuth, al-Aswad b. Muttalib b. Asad b. Abd al-Uzza, Zama b. al-Aswad and al-Nadr b. al-Harith, along with many other such men.

"They said to the Prophet (SAAS), "If you are telling the truth, then split the moon for us into two parts, one half over Mt. Abu Qubays, the other over Mt. Quayquan. The Prophet (SAAS) asked them, "If I did so, would you believe?" "Yes, we would," they replied. It was a night of full moon, and so he asked God the Almighty and Glorious to grant him what they requested. That evening the moon did have one half removed and placed over Mt. Abu Abu Qubays, the other being above Mt. Quayquan, while the Messenger of God (SAAS) called out, "O Abu Salama b. Abd al-Asad, and al-Aqram b. al-Aqram, be a witness (to this event)."

...The Hafiz Abu al-Qasim al- Tabarni said, "Ahmad b. al-Amr al-Razzaz related to us, quoting Muhammad b. Yahya al-Qital, quoting Muhammad b. Bakr quoting Ibn Jurayj quoting Amr b. Dinar, from Ikrima, from Ibn Abbas, who said, ? In the time of the Messenger of God (SAAS), the moon was eclipsed and people said, "The moon is bewitched!" And so the words were revealed, "The hour has drawn near and the moon has split asunder. And if they see a sign they turn away saying, "Just more trickery!"'"(surat al-Qamar, LIV, v. 1-3).

itruth
15-03-2012, 02:50 PM
here

God says in Quran:

"The Hour has drawn near, and the moon has been cleft asunder" [Qur'an 54:1]


Narrated Anas bin Malik: "The people of Mecca asked Allah's Apostle to show them a miracle. So he showed them the moon split in two halves between which they saw the Hiram' mountain. (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Merits of the Helpers in Madinah (Ansaar), Volume 5, Book 58, Number 208)"

Narrated 'Abdullah: "The moon was split ( into two pieces ) while we were with the Prophet in Mina. He said, "Be witnesses." Then a Piece of the moon went towards the mountain. (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Merits of the Helpers in Madinah (Ansaar), Volume 5, Book 58, Number 209)"

"The Hour has drawn near, and the moon has been cleft asunder" [Qur'an 54:1]

That is not saying that muhummad did anything or was involved in anything. Its like saying the dead arose and lame wallked without even saying who/why. Who did it and why.

As I asked before, what would be a sensible reason for spliting the moon? The true prophets did things for sensible and relevant reasons, THATS WHAT MAKES THEIR ACTS MIRACLES. But what reason was there to split the moon?

verse 54.1 is the begining of the sura, there is no context AT ALL given, and NOWHERE does it say muhummad was involved.


Bukhari's criteria

When dealing with sahih hadith narrations, the burden of proof is always on the person who claims a certain narration is not authentic to provide the evidence for why they consider it to be not authentic.

Imam Bukhari came up with three criteria which he used to determine whether or not a narration was sahih or not. His third criteria is mat'n, i.e. the content of a narration must not be in contradiction with the Qur'an. The only exception to this rule is the narrations regarded by scholars to be Qudsi (narrations which contain non-Qur'anic words from Allah).

When challenged by skeptics, the hadith record that Muhammad denied being able to perform any miracles. He admitted that although other prophets before him were given the power of performing miracles, his only miracle was the Qur'an:

This hadith is inline with the koran:

Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "There was no prophet among the prophets but was given miracles because of which people had security or had belief, but what I was given was the Divine Inspiration which Allah revealed to me. So I hope that my followers will be more than those of any other prophet on the Day of Resurrection." Sahih Bukhari 9:92:379

This hadith shows muhummad admitting he had no miracles LIKE THE FORMER PROPHETS.

The hadith record that Muhammad denied being able to perform miracles, and an analysis of the Qur'an clearly shows that he had repeatedly done so when confronted by critics. Therefore, according to imam Bukhari's criteria, the narrations which claim miracles on Muhammad's behalf must be discarded. http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Muhammad%27s_Miracles

IS MUHUMMAD EVEN MENTIONED ONCE IN SURA 54?

WHICH NON MUSLIMS RECORDED SUCH A HUGE EVENT?

DID ANY NON MUSLIMS RECORD THIS?

adam 7
15-03-2012, 03:01 PM
WHICH NON MUSLIMS RECORDED SUCH A HUGE EVENT? DID ANY NON MUSLIMS RECORD THIS?

Muhammed's miracles are just as valid as Jesus. They both need to be taken on brainwashing, erm I mean taken on faith :D

I must admit on the scale of impressiveness. Splitting the moon in two, trumps, curing a bunch of lepers :D

itruth
15-03-2012, 03:05 PM
Muhammed's miracles are just as valid as Jesus. They both need to be taken on brainwashing, erm I mean taken on faith :D

I must admit on the scale of impressiveness. Splitting the moon in two, trumps, curing a bunch of lepers :D

lol, fair enough.

Was the moon sick? I go for the one who helped the sick. Miracles are to have a purpose. I am still waiting for the muslims to tell me the purpose for spilting the moon, if indeed the moon was split as a miracle.

The purpose for healing lepers is universally recognized.

ciko
15-03-2012, 03:11 PM
That is not saying that muhummad did anything or was involved in anything. Its like saying the dead arose and lame wallked without even saying who/why. Who did it and why.

As I asked before, what would be a sensible reason for spliting the moon? The true prophets did things for sensible and relevant reasons, THATS WHAT MAKES THEIR ACTS MIRACLES. But what reason was there to split the moon?

verse 54.1 is the begining of the sura, there is no context AT ALL given, and NOWHERE does it say muhummad was involved.


Bukhari's criteria

When dealing with sahih hadith narrations, the burden of proof is always on the person who claims a certain narration is not authentic to provide the evidence for why they consider it to be not authentic.

Imam Bukhari came up with three criteria which he used to determine whether or not a narration was sahih or not. His third criteria is mat'n, i.e. the content of a narration must not be in contradiction with the Qur'an. The only exception to this rule is the narrations regarded by scholars to be Qudsi (narrations which contain non-Qur'anic words from Allah).

When challenged by skeptics, the hadith record that Muhammad denied being able to perform any miracles. He admitted that although other prophets before him were given the power of performing miracles, his only miracle was the Qur'an:

This hadith is inline with the koran:

Narrated Abu Huraira: The Prophet said, "There was no prophet among the prophets but was given miracles because of which people had security or had belief, but what I was given was the Divine Inspiration which Allah revealed to me. So I hope that my followers will be more than those of any other prophet on the Day of Resurrection." Sahih Bukhari 9:92:379

This hadith shows muhummad admitting he had no miracles LIKE THE FORMER PROPHETS.

The hadith record that Muhammad denied being able to perform miracles, and an analysis of the Qur'an clearly shows that he had repeatedly done so when confronted by critics. Therefore, according to imam Bukhari's criteria, the narrations which claim miracles on Muhammad's behalf must be discarded. http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Muhammad%27s_Miracles

IS MUHUMMAD EVEN MENTIONED ONCE IN SURA 54?

WHICH NON MUSLIMS RECORDED SUCH A HUGE EVENT?

DID ANY NON MUSLIMS RECORD THIS?



WHICH NON MUSLIMS RECORDED SUCH A HUGE EVENT?

DID ANY NON MUSLIMS RECORD THIS?

yes, they have


From http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/farmas.html:

The incident relating to King Chakrawati Farmas is documented in an old manuscript in the India Office Library, London, which has reference number: Arabic, 2807, 152-173. It is quoted in the book “Muhammad Rasulullah,” by M. Hamidullah:

“There is a very old tradition in Malabar, South-West Coast of India, that Chakrawati Farmas, one of their kings, had observed the splitting of the moon, the celebrated miracle of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) at Mecca, and learning on inquiry that there was a prediction of the coming of a Messenger of God from Arabia, he appointed his son as regent and set out to meet him. He embraced Islam at the hand of the Prophet, and when returning home, at the direction of the Prophet, died at the port of Zafar, Yemen, where the tomb of the “Indian king” was piously visited for many centuries.”

The old manuscript in the 'India Office Library' contains several other details about King Chakrawati Farmas and his travel.

ciko
15-03-2012, 03:15 PM
lol, fair enough.

Was the moon sick? I go for the one who helped the sick. Miracles are to have a purpose. I am still waiting for the muslims to tell me the purpose for spilting the moon, if indeed the moon was split as a miracle.

The purpose for healing lepers is universally recognized.

Miracles are to have a purpose. I am still waiting for the muslims to tell me the purpose for spilting the moon, if indeed the moon was split as a miracle.

yuou dont read what i am writing to you man, bad, really bad

purpose of this miracles is explained in this hadith

Narrated Anas bin Malik: "The people of Mecca asked Allah's Apostle to show them a miracle. So he showed them the moon split in two halves between which they saw the Hiram' mountain. (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Merits of the Helpers in Madinah (Ansaar), Volume 5, Book 58, Number 208)"

it is same as if you claimed that you are prophet, then give me the proof, do some miracle and i will believe you, that is exactly what people of mekka asked muhammed.'



... The Hafiz Abu Nuaym stated, "Sulayman b. Ahmad related to us, quoting Bakr b. Suhayl, quoting Abd al-Ghani b. Said, quoting Musa b. Abd al-Rahman, from Ibn Jurayj, from Ata, from Ibn Abbas- also, it came from Muqatil, from al- Dahhak, from Ibn Abbas- with reference to God's words, ?The hour has drawn near and the moon has been split asunder', as follows, ? The polytheists gathered around the Messenger of God (SAAS); they included al-Walid b. al-Mughira, Abu Jahl b. Hisham, al-As b. Wail, al-As b. Hisham, al-Aswad b. Abd Yaghuth, al-Aswad b. Muttalib b. Asad b. Abd al-Uzza, Zama b. al-Aswad and al-Nadr b. al-Harith, along with many other such men.

"They said to the Prophet (SAAS), "If you are telling the truth, then split the moon for us into two parts, one half over Mt. Abu Qubays, the other over Mt. Quayquan. The Prophet (SAAS) asked them, "If I did so, would you believe?" "Yes, we would," they replied. It was a night of full moon, and so he asked God the Almighty and Glorious to grant him what they requested. That evening the moon did have one half removed and placed over Mt. Abu Abu Qubays, the other being above Mt. Quayquan, while the Messenger of God (SAAS) called out, "O Abu Salama b. Abd al-Asad, and al-Aqram b. al-Aqram, be a witness (to this event)."

itruth
15-03-2012, 03:27 PM
yes, they have


From http://www.cyberistan.org/islamic/farmas.html:

The incident relating to King Chakrawati Farmas is documented in an old manuscript in the India Office Library, London, which has reference number: Arabic, 2807, 152-173. It is quoted in the book “Muhammad Rasulullah,” by M. Hamidullah:

“There is a very old tradition in Malabar, South-West Coast of India, that Chakrawati Farmas, one of their kings, had observed the splitting of the moon, the celebrated miracle of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) at Mecca, and learning on inquiry that there was a prediction of the coming of a Messenger of God from Arabia, he appointed his son as regent and set out to meet him. He embraced Islam at the hand of the Prophet, and when returning home, at the direction of the Prophet, died at the port of Zafar, Yemen, where the tomb of the “Indian king” was piously visited for many centuries.”

The old manuscript in the 'India Office Library' contains several other details about King Chakrawati Farmas and his travel.

funny. I specifically asked for the non muslim witnesses MEANING, those who knew nothing about muhummad or islam and recorded it. This dude went to mecca and became a muslim, so he doesn't count for a start.

Heres the problems you have with that dude:

The Islamist Claim

According to Muslim legend, Cheraman Perumal (aka Chakrawati Farmas) was supposed to have witnessed this splitting of the moon.
WITNESS OF MOON SPLITTING (A MIRACLE OF PROPHET MUHAMMAD (PBUH)

CHAKRAWATI FARMAS KING OF MALABAR, INDIA

The incident relating to King Chakrawati Farmas is documented in an old manuscript in the India Office Library, London, which has reference number: Arabic, 2807, 152-173. It was quoted in the book "Muhammad Rasulullah," by M. Hamidullah:

"There is a very old tradition in Malabar, South-West Coast of India, that Chakrawati Farmas, one of their kings, had observed the splitting of the moon, the celebrated miracle of the Holy Prophet (pbuh) at Mecca, and learning on inquiry that there was a prediction of the coming of a Messanger of God from Arabia (Detail given below), he appointed his son as regent and set out to meet him. He embraced Islam at the hand of the Prophet, and when returning home, at the direction of the Prophet, died at the port of Zafar, Yemen, where the tomb of the "Indian king" was piously visited for many centuries."

The old manuscript in the 'India Office Library' contains several other details about King Chakrawati Farmas and his travel.

The king spent weeks in seclusion. In the midst of his quiet life, he set out on the journey along with the Arab travelers who'd promised him earlier. On the way, they stopped by Koylandi and from there to Dharmapatnam where they halted for 3 days. Then they set out to Shehr Muqalla. On reaching there, they set for the Hajj pilgrimage and thereafter returned to Malabar. He aspired to spread the message of Islam [like the muslim cleric i showed earlier this dude could also be a complusive liar and agree with lying to spread islam]. But on the way, he fell sick and breathed his last.
A tradition of the Holy Prophet has also been reported from one of the companions, Abu Saeed al Kaudri, regarding the arrival of Cheraman Perumel. "A king from India presented the Messenger of Allah with a bottle of pickle that had ginger in it. The Holy Prophet distributed it among his companions. I also received a piece to eat ". (Hakim reports in 'Al Musthadrak)
An Indian King Witness of Moon Splitting (Miracle of Prophet Muhammad PBUH)
Muhammad Sarosh Butt, Understanding Islam, July 11, 2002
[edit] Analysis
[edit] Is Cheraman Perumal the same person as Chakrawati Farmas?

The evidence that they are the same people comes from the fact that the above story relates to both Chakrawati Farmas and Cheraman Perumal. Also, the account of Cheraman Perumal is identical or very similar to that of Chakrawati Farmas, particularly with respect to the Hajj.[1]

Cheraman Perumal is also thought to be Rajasekhara Varman (820-844).[2]
[edit] What do the Religious Legends say about when Cheraman Perumal lived?

According to the Muslims, Cheraman Perumal lived during Muhammad’s lifetime as they claim he witnessed the ‘splitting of the moon’ incident.
There was a Muslim community in Malabar, southwest India as early as 618 C.E. as a result of King Chakrawati Farmas accepting Islam at the hands of Prophet Muhammad (pbuh).
Quotations on Muslims in India
Dr. Z. Haq, The Modern Religion
Cheraman Juma Masjid the first mosque of India.

Built in 629 AD, this is the first mosque in India and the second in the world where Juma prayers were started. People from far and near irrespective of caste and creed visit this holy place and pay their homage. This mosque has a unique specialty. Mosques built all over the world face the direction of Mecca, but this particular one faces along the east.
The first mosque in India is Situated in Kodungalloor, Legend says King Cheraman Perumal of Kodungallur left for Mecca, embraced Islam, accepted the name Thajudeen, married the sister of the then King of Jeddah. Before his death Thajuddeen handed over to the King of Jeddah several letters addressed to Kerala Kings seeking their help to propagate Islam. The Jiddah king came to Kerala and met the then king of Kodungalloor who helped the former to build a Juma Masjid.The first mosque in India.
Kodungallur
Dr.Navas, K.J.Hospital
The Cheraman Juma Masjid was built by Malik bin Dinar, one of the 13 followers of Prophet Mohammad who reached the ancient port of Musuris on the spice route in Malabar in 629 AD. Legend has it that Cheraman Perumal, a Hindu ruler of Musuris (modern Kodungallur), embraced Islam at the behest of Dinar, abdicated his throne and left for Mecca to meet the prophet. Perumal is reported to have died at the port of Zafar, Yemen, where the tomb of the "Indian king" was a major attraction to Muslim pilgrims for many centuries.
A mosque from a Hindu king
India Travel Times

A new discovery suggests Cheraman Perumal left for Mecca sometime around 642-643 AD.
According to Dr. G.S. Khwaja of the Archeological Survey of India, some missionaries led by Maalik Bin Dinaar, a Sufi saint from Basra and a contemporary of the prophet came to Kerala in the seventh Century.

They presented themselves in the court of Cheraman Perumal, a Zamorian dynasty king, in 642-43 AD or Hijia 22 (22 years after the prophet's migration from Mecca to Madina).

An epigraph about the Islamic mission, written in difficult-to-read, ancient version of Arabic language, was founded executed on a wooden Lintel of the Jami mosque at Kasargod in Kerala…

…The Kasargod mosque lintel inscription bears out the earliest reference to Islam in Kerala in an ancient Arabic book, "Tohafatul Mujahideen" written by Zainuddin Malabari. It narrates the story of arrival of what could be the first Islamic mission to Kerala by sea, led by Maalik Bin Dinaar.

According to the book, a Zamorin dynasty king, Cheraman Perumal, was ruling then and the missionaries presented themselves in his court in the year 642-43 AD or Hijra 22.

The king welcomed the mission and asked about Islam. So impressed was he with Malik's interpretation of the religion that he embraced Islam, the book says.
Cherman Perumal became Abdullah Sameri and undertook Haj pilgrimage to meet prophet Mohammed at Mecca. On his way back, Sameri died at Zulfar, a coastal town in Yemen, where records show that a grave with the name of Sameri engraved on it still exists.
New Facts on Islam's Arrival
B.S. Rao, Muslim Online

Alas, this Muslim discovery proves the Muslim legend in error as Muhammad died in 632 AD, thus making it truly miraculous that Cheraman Perumal could have personally witnessed the ‘moon splitting’ incident at least a decade after his death.

The Christians, however, believe Cheraman Perumal lived when St Thomas migrated to Malabar in the fourth century.
Knai Thoma and his people were heartily welcomed by Cheraman Perumal, the Emperor. Cheraman Perumal sent his brother, Ramavarma, and his minister, Vettathu Mannan, to receive Knai Thoma and his people. Knai Thoma and his people were given permission to settle down in Kodungalloor and to do business. Later Cheraman Perumal bestowed Knai Thoma and his people with 72 princely privileges and there by elevated them over 17 castes. This proclamation was made on a Saturday in March (Kumbham 29), 345 and it was recorded on copper plates given to Knai Thoma (Knai Thomman Cheppedu).
Knanaya Community
Indian Christianity

So we have conflicting religious sources as to when Cheraman Perumal lived. If he lived in the period ascribed to him by the Christians, he couldn’t have witnessed the ‘moon splitting’ incident as he would have predated Muhammad by almost three centuries.

Nevertheless, there are conflicting Muslim accounts of when he left for Mecca, namely around 629 AD or 643 AD.
[edit] When did this ‘moon splitting’ incident supposed to have occurred?
According to Maududi, the traditionists and commentators have agreed that this incident took place at Mina in Makkah about five years before the Holy Prophet's Hijra (migration) to Madinah. The Moon had split into two distinct parts in front of their very eyes. The two parts had separated and receded so much apart from each other that to the on-lookers (in Makkah) one part had appeared on one side of the mountain and the other on the other side of it. Then, in an instant the two had rejoined. This was a manifest proof of the truth that the system of the universe was neither eternal nor immortal, it could be disrupted.
(54:1) The Spitting of the Moon
Mustafa Mlivo, dipl. ing.

As Hijra is traditionally accepted to have occurred in the year 622 AD, the ‘moon splitting’ incident must have occurred sometime around 617 AD. This means that Malik bin Dinar’s arrival in Malabar in 629 AD was about 12 years too late for Cheraman Perumal to have witnessed the ‘moon splitting’ incident. More likely Malik bin Dinar told the king this lie, rather than the king himself witness the incident. Through time, the legend transmutated from Cheraman Perumal being told the incident to him witnessing the incident.
[edit] When did the Historical Cheraman Perumal live?

The established historical sources from Kerala suggest that Cheraman Perumal lived in the ninth century.
His successor, Rajasekhara Varman (820-844), was a Saivite saint who introduced the Malayalam Era known as Kollam Era in 825 A.D. Sthanu Ravi Varman is sometimes identified with Rajasekhara Varman who in turn is identified with Cheraman Perumal Nayanar. According to Keralolpathi, Cheraman Perumal was the last emperor; he divided the kingdom among his suzerains, embraced Islam, left Kerala for Mecca, married a Muslim princess, and finally died on the Arabian Coast.
Chera Times of the Kulasekharas
Kerala History, Kerala Cafe
A later king who abdicated his throne in 825 AD was Cheraman Perumal who apparently accepted Islam and went to Mecca.
Kerala History
Dr P K John
Cheraman Perumal Nayanar, one of the two Nayanars from Kerala, as stated above, has been identified with Rajasekhara Varman (820-844 A.D.), the second of the kings who ruled over the Kulasekhara empire.
Temples & Legends of Kerala/ Introduction (pg. 9)
K.R. Vaidyanathan

So it would appear that the historical facts do not support Cheraman Perumal ever having witnessed the ‘moon splitting’ incident.
[edit] What the Muslim Historian have said about Cheraman Perumal

Muslims claim that Cheraman Perumal aka Chakrawati Farmas personally witnessed the ‘moon splitting’ incident, based on legend.

At least one historian disagrees. In fact, it is undeniable that far from witnessing the incident, Cheraman Perumal was told of it and this gullible king converted to Islam on the basis of this supernatural tale. The folly of humans, even kings, is boundless, as evidenced by the number of Muslims past, present and future who believe this tale.
The tradition account of the introduction of Islam to the Malabar coast is recorded by Zayn-us-Din, an historian of the sixteenth century. He states that the conversion of Cheruman Perumal occurred during the lifetime of the Prophet. A company of pilgrims from Arabia were making a journey to visit Adam’s footprint in Ceylon. On their arrival at Cranganore they paid a visit to the raja, and told him of the miracle of Muhammad’s having split the moon. Perumal was captivated by this report of the exhibition of such supernatural power. He was converted; and when the pilgrims returned from their journey he secretly joined them, and went with them to Arabia to visit the Prophet, who had not yet fled to Medina." (Titus, 1936, pp. 32-33).
How dharma coped with Islam onslaught of jihad and death to ‘infidels’ between 664 CE and today
History of Dharma, The Hindu Universe

This fits with the time frame of the historical facts of Cheraman Perumal’s lifetime and the discrepancy between the arrival of Muslim missionaries in Malabar and the putative date of the ‘moon splitting’ incident.
[edit] Conclusion

Religious sources seem contradictory with respect to when Cheraman Perumal lived and whether he did witness the ‘moon splitting’ incident. It must be noted that Cheraman Perumal was a legendary king of Kerala and it is unsurprising that various religions, Hinduism, Christianity and Islam, try to associate themselves with his renown, regardless of historical facts.

It is apparent that the historical facts do not support the Islamist legend that Chakrawati Farmas (aka Cheraman Perumal aka Rajasekhara Varman) personally witnessed the ludicrous ‘moon splitting’ incident as he is thought to have lived about two centuries after the death of Muhammad bin Abdallah, whose followers made up the ‘moon splitting’ miracle to fool the gullible.

Only someone severely lacking in their mental faculties would believe that a man living in the ninth century could personally witness a miracle performed by a warlord[3] in the seventh century, an event not witnessed by anybody else. Truly a miracle of Islam. http://wikiislam.net/wiki/Witnessing_the_Moon_Splitting_Miracle

So the dude you quoted is a muslim, i asked for non muslims who witnessed it. If this dude in india saw it, then it stands to reason that MANY MANY OTHERS WOULD ALSO HAVE WITNESSED IT AND RECORDED IT INDEPENDENTLY, YES?

itruth
15-03-2012, 03:35 PM
yuou dont read what i am writing to you man, bad, really bad

purpose of this miracles is explained in this hadith

Narrated Anas bin Malik: "The people of Mecca asked Allah's Apostle to show them a miracle. So he showed them the moon split in two halves between which they saw the Hiram' mountain. (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Merits of the Helpers in Madinah (Ansaar), Volume 5, Book 58, Number 208)"

it is same as if you claimed that you are prophet, then give me the proof, do some miracle and i will believe you, that is exactly what people of mekka asked muhammed.'



... The Hafiz Abu Nuaym stated, "Sulayman b. Ahmad related to us, quoting Bakr b. Suhayl, quoting Abd al-Ghani b. Said, quoting Musa b. Abd al-Rahman, from Ibn Jurayj, from Ata, from Ibn Abbas- also, it came from Muqatil, from al- Dahhak, from Ibn Abbas- with reference to God's words, ?The hour has drawn near and the moon has been split asunder', as follows, ? The polytheists gathered around the Messenger of God (SAAS); they included al-Walid b. al-Mughira, Abu Jahl b. Hisham, al-As b. Wail, al-As b. Hisham, al-Aswad b. Abd Yaghuth, al-Aswad b. Muttalib b. Asad b. Abd al-Uzza, Zama b. al-Aswad and al-Nadr b. al-Harith, along with many other such men.

"They said to the Prophet (SAAS), "If you are telling the truth, then split the moon for us into two parts, one half over Mt. Abu Qubays, the other over Mt. Quayquan. The Prophet (SAAS) asked them, "If I did so, would you believe?" "Yes, we would," they replied. It was a night of full moon, and so he asked God the Almighty and Glorious to grant him what they requested. That evening the moon did have one half removed and placed over Mt. Abu Abu Qubays, the other being above Mt. Quayquan, while the Messenger of God (SAAS) called out, "O Abu Salama b. Abd al-Asad, and al-Aqram b. al-Aqram, be a witness (to this event)."

purpose of this miracles is explained in this hadith

I don't need a hadith writen by muslims desprate to boast up their prophet to tell me what the purpose of miracles are.

When i say miracles i mean BIBLICALLY. ALL THOSE MIRACLES WERE DONE FOR SPECIFIC REASONS. Turning water into wine was done because there was no more wine at the wedding, red sea parted to help the israelites cross over, THEY HAD PURPOSE. What purpose does spliting the moon have?

Here is an example:

Jos 10:12 Then spake Joshua to the LORD in the day when the LORD delivered up the Amorites before the children of Israel, and he said in the sight of Israel, Sun, stand thou still upon Gibeon; and thou, Moon, in the valley of Ajalon.
Jos 10:13 And the sun stood still, and the moon stayed, until the people had avenged themselves upon their enemies. Is not this written in the book of Jasher? So the sun stood still in the midst of heaven, and hasted not to go down about a whole day.
Jos 10:14 And there was no day like that before it or after it, that the LORD hearkened unto the voice of a man: for the LORD fought for Israel.


Now, as you can see, the sun stood still and gave day light UNTIL the israelites had finished what they were doing.

adam 7
15-03-2012, 03:40 PM
I am still waiting for the muslims to tell me the purpose for spilting the moon, if indeed the moon was split as a miracle.

Maybe Muhammed was a show off :D wanting to out do low grade prophets.

itruth
15-03-2012, 03:57 PM
Note that the verses of the Quran and several hadiths that narrate this story do not claim that this so called miracle was performed by Muhammad. They say that people saw the Moon in two sides of the mount Hira and Muhammad said this is a sign from Allah to convince you that I am a prophet. Many Muslims are convinced that this phenomenon has indeed happened. They are shown these close-up pictures of the Moon taken by Apollo 10 as evidence.

These are called Lunar Rilles. Rilles are long and deep gorges resembling canyons. A rille is typically several kilometers wide and hundreds of kilometers in length. Similar formations are found on a number of planets in the solar system, including Mars, Venus, and on a number of moons.

How these rilles are formed is still subject of study. Theories include erosion at some point in the stellar body’s history, collapsed lava tubes, and tectonic activity/stresses.

There are three types of rilles on the lunar surface:

Sinuous rilles meander in a curved path like a river, and are commonly thought to be the remains of collapsed lava tubes or extinct lava flows. They usually begin at an extinct volcano, then meander and sometimes split as they are followed across the surface.
Arcuate rilles have a smooth curve and are found on the edges of the dark lunar maria. They are believed to form when the lava flows that created a mare cools, contracts, and sinks.
Straight rilles follow long, linear paths and are believed to be grabens. That is, a section of the crust that has sunk between two parallel faults. These can be readily identified when they pass through craters or mountain ranges.

Rilles can be found all over the lunar surface and they do not form a belt and therefore do not in anyway support the claim of Muslims that the Moon had been split asunder. Here are a few pictures that should dismiss this Islamic wishful thinking. To understand how rilles scar the surface of the Moon, we have to take a look at pictures showing the moon from farther up.

http://1.2.3.9/bmi/alisina.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/moon-rille-298x300.jpg

http://1.2.3.10/bmi/alisina.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/rilles2-295x300.jpg

http://1.2.3.10/bmi/alisina.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/rilles10-291x300.jpg

http://1.2.3.12/bmi/alisina.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/rilles13.jpg

The following rilles are found on Mars and Venus and Europa the moon of Jupiter.

Martian and Venetian rilles
http://1.2.3.11/bmi/alisina.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/martian-rilles1.jpg

http://1.2.3.12/bmi/alisina.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/venetian-rille.jpg

http://1.2.3.11/bmi/alisina.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/European-rilles-300x237.jpg

http://1.2.3.9/bmi/alisina.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/11/Europa-moon.jpg

picha
15-03-2012, 11:02 PM
Muslim Gangs Terrorize Denmark

by Soeren Kern (http://www.stonegateinstitute.org/author/Soeren+Kern)
March 14, 2012 at 5:00 am

http://www.stonegateinstitute.org/images/icons/item_print.gif Print (http://www.stonegateinstitute.org/2941/muslim-gangs-denmark#) http://www.stonegateinstitute.org/images/icons/item_email.gif Send (http://www.stonegateinstitute.org/article_send.php?id=2941) http://www.stonegateinstitute.org/images/icons/item_comment.gif Comment (http://www.stonegateinstitute.org/2941/muslim-gangs-denmark#comment_submit) http://www.stonegateinstitute.org/images/icons/item_rss.gif RSS (http://www.stonegateinstitute.org/rss.xml) http://s7.addthis.com/static/btn/sm-plus.gif Share (http://www.addthis.com/bookmark.php?v=250&username=hudsonny)


"With Islam comes fear, and with fear comes power."
More than 140 Muslim gang members were arrested (http://politiken.dk/indland/ECE1562025/140-anholdte-uromagere-var-bevaebnet-til-taenderne/) in Denmark after they tried to raid a courthouse where two fellow Muslims are being tried for attempted murder.
The Muslims -- all members of criminal street gangs that have taken over large parts of Danish towns and cities -- were wearing masks and bullet-proof vests and throwing rocks and bottles as they tried to force their way into the district courthouse in Glostrup, a heavily Islamized suburb of Copenhagen, on March 6.
Police used batons and pepper spray to fend off the gang members, who were armed with an arsenal of 20 different types of weapons, including crowbars, darts, hammers, knives, screwdrivers and wooden clubs.
The trial in Glostrup involves two Pakistani immigrants accused of shooting and attempting to murder two fellow Muslims who belong to a rival gang. Police say the accused used a nine millimeter handgun to carry out the crime in Ballerup, a Muslim suburb northwest of Copenhagen. The trial began on February 28 and is scheduled to run through March 28.
The shooting was related to an escalating turf war (http://politiken.dk/indland/ECE1176794/politiet-afvaebner-unge-med-pistoler-i-vaerebroparken/) between rival Muslim gangs from the Værebroparken housing estate in Bagsværd, a suburb of Copenhagen, and Nivå and Kokkedal in northern Zealand. Immigrant gangs are believed to be responsible for at least 50 shootings in and around Copenhagen during the past several months.
The recent violence is reminiscent of an earlier conflict between immigrant gangs and Danish gangs like the Hells Angels or the AK81 that left many people dead or wounded in Copenhagen and other Danish cities.
The immigrant gangs are involved in countless criminal activities, including drug trafficking, illegal weapons smuggling, extortion, human trafficking, robbery, prostitution, automobile theft, racketeering and murder.
Many of the gang members are ethnic Arabs, Bosnians, Turks and Somalians. They also include Iraqis, Moroccans, Palestinians and Pakistanis.
Over the past several years, the immigrant gangs have proliferated geographically across all of Denmark. The gangs have spread south from Copenhagen to the rest of Zealand, from inner Nørrebro, to the suburbs Ishøj, Greve, Greve, and on to Køge. The gangs are also active in Albertslund, Herlev, Hillerød, Høje Gladsaxe, Hundige, Roskilde and Skovlunde, among many Danish localities.
One of the largest criminal gangs in Denmark is a Muslim gang called Black Cobra. The organization was founded by Palestinian immigrants in Roskilde near Copenhagen in 2000 and now operates in all Danish cities.
Black Cobra has also established itself in Sweden (http://www.expressen.se/kvp/black-cobra-forsoker-varva-folk/), where it operates with impunity in the Islamized Tensta and Rinkeby suburbs of Stockholm and in the Muslim ghetto of Rosengård in Malmö.
The Black Cobra gang -- whose members wear black and white shirts with an emblem of a cobra in attack position -- also controls a youth gang called the Black Scorpions.
Danish authorities estimate that each year more than 700 immigrants (http://jp.dk/indland/kbh/article1814600.ece) between the ages of 18 and 25 are choosing crime as a permanent career by joining gangs such as Black Cobra, the Black Scorpions, the Bandidos, the Bloodz, the International Club, or any other of the more than 100 gangs that are now operating in Denmark.
On February 28, the Danish national police (Rigspolitiet) together with the Justice Ministry presented parliament with a plan to push back against the gangs (http://jp.dk/indland/krimi/article2708796.ece). Police say they hope they can arrest 300 high-ranking gang members -- 200 from Zealand and 100 from Jutland -- by the end of 2012. The government has also committed 50 million Danish kroner ($9 million) in 2012 to a special project aimed at intercepting and preventing gang recruitment in marginalized areas.
But analysts are skeptical the Danish government can do very much to crack down on the gangs. Although Danish police say they arrested more than 350 gang members in 2011, many of those detentions involved lower-ranking "errand boys" who were released after being questioned.
Some critics say a big problem is a lack of will and that Danish efforts to crack down on the immigrant gangs have been half-hearted at best. In Denmark -- as in other European countries where the state-enforced dogma of multiculturalism trumps traditional notions of equal justice for all -- immigrants involved in crime are portrayed as victims of circumstance and relatively few are ever sent to prison.
In those cases where immigrants are detained, many are released after just a few hours. Critics say this encourages them to avenge their arrests. A case in point: Of the more than 140 Muslims who were arrested for trying to storm the courthouse in Glostrup on March 6, all but five were immediately released. That same night many of those who were released went on a rampage in Værebroparken, setting fire to trash bins and launching missiles at hapless police.
But a larger part of the problem involves fear.
Immigrant gangs often operate or seek refuge in so-called no-go zones (http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/01/danish-police-immigrant-criminals-target-danes-to-make-them-move-out-of-the-muslim-area.html) that are effectively off limits to Danish authorities. These "no-go zones (http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/01/more-muslim-racism-against-danes.html)" involve suburbs of Copenhagen and other Danish cities that function as autonomous enclaves ruled by Muslim immigrants, areas where Danish police fear to tread (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=PH4_OwxLiXU).
Muslim gangs in Denmark have been highly adept at leveraging the fear that Danish authorities have of Islam and of Muslim immigrants. They replicated the model that Muslim gangs in Britain (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/2853450/How-Muslims-took-over-the-British-underworld.html) have successfully used to wrest control over the criminal underworld in that country.
In an interview with a British newspaper (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/2853450/How-Muslims-took-over-the-British-underworld.html), an Asian Muslim gang member named Amir put it this way: "The reality is that Asian gangs don't give much of toss about religion, but with Islam comes fear, and with fear comes power. Religion is important to us only as a way of defining who we can trust and who we can work with. Young Muslim gangs aren't worried about what Allah makes of their criminal ways -- they don't believe in it to that extent."
Amir added: "Through religion we speak the same language, live in the same areas, go to the same schools and can even use mosques as a safe place away from the police or other gangs. If you f*** with a Muslim gang you'd better be able to run fast or hide well, because they will come back at you in numbers."http://www.stonegateinstitute.org/2941/muslim-gangs-denmark

roman piso
16-03-2012, 02:19 AM
This thread is full of Garbage, Islam is organised Schizophrenia, seek help if your Infected with Islam

major seven
16-03-2012, 03:08 AM
Muslim Gangs Terrorize Denmark

by Soeren Kern (http://www.stonegateinstitute.org/author/Soeren+Kern)
March 14, 2012 at 5:00 am

http://www.stonegateinstitute.org/images/icons/item_print.gif Print (http://www.stonegateinstitute.org/2941/muslim-gangs-denmark#) http://www.stonegateinstitute.org/images/icons/item_email.gif Send (http://www.stonegateinstitute.org/article_send.php?id=2941) http://www.stonegateinstitute.org/images/icons/item_comment.gif Comment (http://www.stonegateinstitute.org/2941/muslim-gangs-denmark#comment_submit) http://www.stonegateinstitute.org/images/icons/item_rss.gif RSS (http://www.stonegateinstitute.org/rss.xml) http://s7.addthis.com/static/btn/sm-plus.gif Share (http://www.addthis.com/bookmark.php?v=250&username=hudsonny)


"With Islam comes fear, and with fear comes power."
More than 140 Muslim gang members were arrested (http://politiken.dk/indland/ECE1562025/140-anholdte-uromagere-var-bevaebnet-til-taenderne/) in Denmark after they tried to raid a courthouse where two fellow Muslims are being tried for attempted murder.
The Muslims -- all members of criminal street gangs that have taken over large parts of Danish towns and cities -- were wearing masks and bullet-proof vests and throwing rocks and bottles as they tried to force their way into the district courthouse in Glostrup, a heavily Islamized suburb of Copenhagen, on March 6.
Police used batons and pepper spray to fend off the gang members, who were armed with an arsenal of 20 different types of weapons, including crowbars, darts, hammers, knives, screwdrivers and wooden clubs.
The trial in Glostrup involves two Pakistani immigrants accused of shooting and attempting to murder two fellow Muslims who belong to a rival gang. Police say the accused used a nine millimeter handgun to carry out the crime in Ballerup, a Muslim suburb northwest of Copenhagen. The trial began on February 28 and is scheduled to run through March 28.
The shooting was related to an escalating turf war (http://politiken.dk/indland/ECE1176794/politiet-afvaebner-unge-med-pistoler-i-vaerebroparken/) between rival Muslim gangs from the Værebroparken housing estate in Bagsværd, a suburb of Copenhagen, and Nivå and Kokkedal in northern Zealand. Immigrant gangs are believed to be responsible for at least 50 shootings in and around Copenhagen during the past several months.
The recent violence is reminiscent of an earlier conflict (http://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7i4j7_hell-s-angels-versus-black-cobra_news) between immigrant gangs and Danish gangs like the Hells Angels or the AK81 that left many people dead or wounded in Copenhagen and other Danish cities.
The immigrant gangs are involved in countless criminal activities, including drug trafficking, illegal weapons smuggling, extortion, human trafficking, robbery, prostitution, automobile theft, racketeering and murder.
Many of the gang members are ethnic Arabs, Bosnians, Turks and Somalians. They also include Iraqis, Moroccans, Palestinians and Pakistanis.
Over the past several years, the immigrant gangs have proliferated geographically across all of Denmark. The gangs have spread south from Copenhagen to the rest of Zealand, from inner Nørrebro, to the suburbs Ishøj, Greve, Greve, and on to Køge. The gangs are also active in Albertslund, Herlev, Hillerød, Høje Gladsaxe, Hundige, Roskilde and Skovlunde, among many Danish localities.
One of the largest criminal gangs in Denmark is a Muslim gang called Black Cobra. The organization was founded by Palestinian immigrants in Roskilde near Copenhagen in 2000 and now operates in all Danish cities.
Black Cobra has also established itself in Sweden (http://www.expressen.se/kvp/black-cobra-forsoker-varva-folk/), where it operates with impunity in the Islamized Tensta and Rinkeby suburbs of Stockholm and in the Muslim ghetto of Rosengård in Malmö.
The Black Cobra gang -- whose members wear black and white shirts with an emblem of a cobra in attack position -- also controls a youth gang called the Black Scorpions.
Danish authorities estimate that each year more than 700 immigrants (http://jp.dk/indland/kbh/article1814600.ece) between the ages of 18 and 25 are choosing crime as a permanent career by joining gangs such as Black Cobra, the Black Scorpions, the Bandidos, the Bloodz, the International Club, or any other of the more than 100 gangs that are now operating in Denmark.
On February 28, the Danish national police (Rigspolitiet) together with the Justice Ministry presented parliament with a plan to push back against the gangs (http://jp.dk/indland/krimi/article2708796.ece). Police say they hope they can arrest 300 high-ranking gang members -- 200 from Zealand and 100 from Jutland -- by the end of 2012. The government has also committed 50 million Danish kroner ($9 million) in 2012 to a special project aimed at intercepting and preventing gang recruitment in marginalized areas.
But analysts are skeptical the Danish government can do very much to crack down on the gangs. Although Danish police say they arrested more than 350 gang members in 2011, many of those detentions involved lower-ranking "errand boys" who were released after being questioned.
Some critics say a big problem is a lack of will and that Danish efforts to crack down on the immigrant gangs have been half-hearted at best. In Denmark -- as in other European countries where the state-enforced dogma of multiculturalism trumps traditional notions of equal justice for all -- immigrants involved in crime are portrayed as victims of circumstance and relatively few are ever sent to prison.
In those cases where immigrants are detained, many are released after just a few hours. Critics say this encourages them to avenge their arrests. A case in point: Of the more than 140 Muslims who were arrested for trying to storm the courthouse in Glostrup on March 6, all but five were immediately released. That same night many of those who were released went on a rampage in Værebroparken, setting fire to trash bins and launching missiles at hapless police.
But a larger part of the problem involves fear.
Immigrant gangs often operate or seek refuge in so-called no-go zones (http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/01/danish-police-immigrant-criminals-target-danes-to-make-them-move-out-of-the-muslim-area.html) that are effectively off limits to Danish authorities. These "no-go zones (http://www.jihadwatch.org/2012/01/more-muslim-racism-against-danes.html)" involve suburbs of Copenhagen and other Danish cities that function as autonomous enclaves ruled by Muslim immigrants, areas where Danish police fear to tread (http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=PH4_OwxLiXU).
Muslim gangs in Denmark have been highly adept at leveraging the fear that Danish authorities have of Islam and of Muslim immigrants. They replicated the model that Muslim gangs in Britain (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/2853450/How-Muslims-took-over-the-British-underworld.html) have successfully used to wrest control over the criminal underworld in that country.
In an interview with a British newspaper (http://www.thesun.co.uk/sol/homepage/features/2853450/How-Muslims-took-over-the-British-underworld.html), an Asian Muslim gang member named Amir put it this way: "The reality is that Asian gangs don't give much of toss about religion, but with Islam comes fear, and with fear comes power. Religion is important to us only as a way of defining who we can trust and who we can work with. Young Muslim gangs aren't worried about what Allah makes of their criminal ways -- they don't believe in it to that extent."
Amir added: "Through religion we speak the same language, live in the same areas, go to the same schools and can even use mosques as a safe place away from the police or other gangs. If you f*** with a Muslim gang you'd better be able to run fast or hide well, because they will come back at you in numbers."http://www.stonegateinstitute.org/2941/muslim-gangs-denmark





Maybe they could lock them ALL up in a room somewhere with a Big Screen TV and let them watch Happy Days reruns.

Let THE FONZ show them What it IS to be COOL!

Happy Days Presentation (3) - YouTube

"HEYYYyyyyyyyy!!!" (The Fonz)

major seven
16-03-2012, 03:20 AM
This thread is full of Garbage, Islam is organised Schizophrenia, seek help if your Infected with Islam




Right Romeo!

Just like YOUR threads, Eh What?

Like, Pliny The Younger writing Acts? LOL!

The only difference between YOU and El Ciko, is that you ain't a muslim.

:D LOL!!!

"What A Maroon" (Bugs Bunny)

pert
16-03-2012, 08:12 AM
Put him in hell in an adjoining room next to ol' Mo - they're both murderers!
At least Hitler loved his Alsatian, Mohammad (Pigshit Be Upon Him) certainly didnt like dogs!

selig
16-03-2012, 09:00 AM
http://www.answering-christianity.com/split_moon_12202006.jpg

If this picture is considered proof that muhammed split the moon on half (or god did it on his behalf) then would a similar picture of the earth prove that the earth had been split in half at some point as well?

http://www.google.co.uk/imgres?um=1&hl=en&newwindow=1&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=f4T&sa=N&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&biw=1280&bih=884&tbm=isch&tbnid=PNJXaNW_rPQT8M:&imgrefurl=http://www.dreamstime.com/royalty-free-stock-images-fault-line-or-fracture-in-the-earth-image5846349&docid=9lVaxUZKyJYjTM&imgurl=http://www.dreamstime.com/fault-line-or-fracture-in-the-earth-thumb5846349.jpg&w=300&h=450&ei=CgBjT_fCHYmo8AOO85mmCA&zoom=1

https://encrypted-tbn0.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcTTI4L_6r9TGZtxdjvzWM79gq9NzgDHw UZFoHwuue16IYVklD5rnw

https://encrypted-tbn3.google.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcT50aMGEOo23gErqfJ4Bv1Sx6hmgmnnG qcWwZYgjlLPt2zRNeW5vg

If not, why not?

ciko
16-03-2012, 10:44 AM
i know you dont like this, but how it really is,

like God said in quran:

61:8 they wish to put Allah’s Light out with their mouths. But He will perfect His light, even though the disbelievers hate it;

9. it is He who sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth to show that it is above all [other] religions, even though the idolaters hate it.

now we see that promise of God in front of our eyes

World fastest growing religion: Islam - YouTube

BBC News Islam is the Fastest Growing Religion in London. - YouTube

BBC News Europeans converting to islam - YouTube

adam 7
16-03-2012, 11:44 AM
like God said in quran:

God did not write the Quran. It was written by the followers of Muhammed after his death.

If God did write a Quran it would read

61:8 they wish to put My Light out with their mouths. But I will perfect My light, even though the disbelievers hate it; 9. it is Me who sent My Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth to show that it is above all [other] religions, even though the idolaters hate it.


It would be written in the first person.

Instead both Allah and Muhammed are written in the third person.

The authors are writing words about God based on what they learnt from Muhammed and his visions (hallucinations / hearing voices) in his lifetime.

ciko
16-03-2012, 12:12 PM
God did not write the Quran. It was written by the followers of Muhammed after his death.

If God did write a Quran it would read

61:8 they wish to put My Light out with their mouths. But I will perfect My light, even though the disbelievers hate it; 9. it is Me who sent My Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth to show that it is above all [other] religions, even though the idolaters hate it.


It would be written in the first person.

Instead both Allah and Muhammed are written in the third person.

The authors are writing words about God based on what they learnt from Muhammed and his visions (hallucinations / hearing voices) in his lifetime.


It was written by the followers of Muhammed after his death.

but every muslim know and historians that quran was completed during muhammed's life time. tel me how can quran be written after muhammed's death.


written by the followers of Muhammed

is it?

Who Wrote the Holy Qur'an?

By Method of Elimination

Qur'an, in Arabic, could only have been written by ONE of 3 possible sources:


1 The Arabs

2 Mohammad (Peace Be Upon Him)

3 Allah (GOD)

Besides the above mentioned sources, Qur'an couldn't possibly have been written by ANYONE else. No other source is possible, because Qur'an is written in pure, rich, and poetic Arabic, which was not known to anyone other than the above mentioned sources, at that time. The Arabic language was at its peak in expression, richness, vocabulary, artistic, and poetic value during the time the Qur'an was being revealed. Anyone speaking the classical Arabic ( the Arabic of Qur'an at the time it was revealed) would argue that a non-Arab entity couldn't possibly have written such an extensive and brilliant piece of literature in the Arabic language. Qur'an could only have been written by an Arabic speaking entity.

An entity, who's knowledge, style, vocabulary, grammar, and way of expression was so powerful that it impacted the entire Arabian peninsula, the east, the west, and continues to impact people all over the globe today!

At no other time, in the history of Arabic language, had it ever achieved its peak in expression, literature, and development, than the time of Arabia during the 6th Century, the time when Qur'an was being revealed. With the Arabic language at its peak, and the best of Arabic writers, poets present in Arabia, it is impossible that a non-Arabic speaking entity would write a book like Qur'an and have such a dynamite impact on the Arabs!

Lets examine the three choces one by one.

(1) Arabs Wrote it ?

What Qur'an teaches goes DIRECTLY against the pagan Arab culture, religion, and gods, that existed before the Qur'an was revealed. Qur'an condemns idol worshipping, but the Arabs, loved their idol gods, and worshipped them regularly. Qur'an raised the status of women; the Arabs treated women next to animals. The Arabs would never write something that goes against their most important belief of idol worshipping. Qur'an goes against most of the social habbits (such as backbiting, slandering, name calling, etc) which the Arabs were heavily indulged into. For example, the Arabs would call insulting nicknames such as Abu Jahal (the father of ignorance). Qur'an condemns and prohibits taking interest on money, whereas, the Arabs freely levied heavy interest rates in loans and businesses. Qur'an condemns and prohibits Alcohol drinking, whereas, the Arabs consumed alcohol freely. The Qur'an condemns and prohibits gambling, whereas, the Arabs were some of the worst gamblers. The Arabs would never write something so comprehensively against just about all of their customs and culture and religious beliefs, as the Qur'an is.

During the time of the Holy Prophet (PBUH), the Arabs would indulge in all the social habits that the Qur'an condemns and prohibits. How can Arabs then write something that would negate their entire society's norms and ideologies ?

Did a group of Arabs or an individual Arab write Qur'an? Perhaps a rebel Arab beduoin, or a society's misfit, or someone with different ideals and norms decided one day to write Qur'an? The answer to those questions are also 'no'. Because, if we read Qur'an, we notice that there is no author ! No individual has his/her name written on the cover of Qur'an! No one in the history of the world has EVER claimed to have written the Qur'an, No one in the world has ever been accused of writing the Holy Qur'an, except the Prophet Mohammad (peace be upon him), by non-muslims.

The Prophet Mohammad (Peace Be Upon Him) was the only Arabian who first practiced, explained, and preached Qur'an, and ended up making a lot of Arab tribes enemies. Any historian, Muslim or non-Muslim would argue that the only possible source of Qur'an can be the Prophet Mohammad (PBUH), the man responsible to recite it, teach it, and expalin it to the people of Arabia. In fact, many historians today still think that only Mohammad (pbuh) could possibly have written it.

This leads one to conclude that the Prophet (pbuh) must have written it !

(2) Mohammad (PBUH) wrote it ?

First, he was illiterate !! How can an illiterate person come up with such a rich, poetic, intellectual, and inspiring text that it rocked the entire Arabia ? Mohammad (pbuh) never went to school ! No one taught him. He had no teacher of any kind in any subjects. How can he have the knowledge of all the science, astronomy, oceanography, etc that is contained in the Qur'an ? ( For example, the mention of ocean currents, stars, earth, moon, sun and their fixed paths in Soorah Rahman; and many other scientific statements that are found in Qur'an, that cannot be stated in this short article)

When Qur'an was revealed, the Arabic language was at its peak in richness, poetic value, literature, etc. Qur'an came and challenged the best literature in Arabic, the best poetry in Arabic of the time to produce a single chapter like that of the Qur'an.

And if you are in doubt as to what We have revealed from time to time to Our servant, then produce a Sura like thereunto; and call your witnesses or helpers (If there are any) besides Allah, if your (doubts) are true.The Holy Qur'an, Chapter 2,Verse 23

Mohammad (PBUH) being illiterate couldnt possibly have come up with something so immaculate that it even exceded the best of poetry, and literature in Arabic at the time of the language's PEAK development. Arabic language had never been so rich in expression, poetic value, vocabulary, and variety in literature, as it was in the time of Qur'an. At a time like this, Qur'an came and exceeded the best of Arabic in all aspects of the language: poetry, literature, expression, etc. Any classical Arabic speaker would appreciate the unbeatten, unchallenged, and unmatched beauty of the language of Qur'an.

Mohammad (PBUH) had no reason to come up with something like Qur'an, and cause the entire society of Arabia to become his enemy. Why would he do something like that? Why would he write something going against almost all of the norms of the society, and lose his family, relatives, friends, and other loved ones , and not to mention all the wealth he lost ?

Qur'an was revealed over a period of 23 years ! A very long time! Is it possible for someone to maintain the same exact style of Arabic speech , as demonstrated in Qur'an, for over 23 years ?

Also, what the prophet Mohammad (PBUH) used to say is recorded in what we call his hadeeth (sunnah). If we look at the Arabic style of the hadeeth, and compare it with the style of Qur'an, we can clearly see that they are clearly DIFFERENT, and DISTINGUISHABLE Arabic styles. The Prophet (PBUH) spoke in public. It does not make sense that a man has two UNIQUE, Distinguishable, and completely different styles of speech in public. Yet another reason why Mohammad (PBUH) couldn't possibly have written Qur'an.

It is He Who has sent amongst the Unlettered a messenger from among themselves, to rehearse to them His Signs, to sanctify them, and to instruct them in Scripture and Wisdom, although they had been, before, in manifest error The Holy Qur'an, Chapter 62,Verse 2

The Conclusion: Qur'an is Allah (God)'s word.

The Qur'an has retained its original pure form for over 14 centuries not a word has changed. Allah has promised to safeguard it from corruption

We have, without doubt, sent down the Message; and We will assuredly guard it (from corruption). The Holy Qur'an, Chapter 15,Verse 9

No falsehood can approach it from before or behind it: It is sent down by One Full of Wisdom, Worthy of all Praise.The Holy Qur'an, Chapter 41,Verse 42

as yuou can see it is very easy to debunk your claims ;)


The authors are writing words about God based on what they learnt from Muhammed and his visions (hallucinations / hearing voices) in his lifetime

halucinations about big bang, expansion of universe, and other astronomical stuff, about embriology, oceanology, metheorology, medicine, biology.....

what amazing halucinations he had :D

itruth
16-03-2012, 12:38 PM
halucinations about big bang, expansion of universe, and other astronomical stuff, about embriology, oceanology, metheorology, medicine, biology.....

what amazing halucinations he had :D

Narrated 'Aisha: The Prophet continued for such-and-such period IMAGINING that he has slept (had sexual relations) with his wives, and in fact he did not. http://www.sahihalbukhari.com/sps/sbk/sahihalbukhari.cfm?scn=dsphadeeth&HadeethID=5673&txt=imagining

ciko
16-03-2012, 12:48 PM
big bang, expansion of universe, and other astronomical stuff, about embriology, oceanology, metheorology, medicine, biology.....

if you wonder why God talked about those scientific stuff to people in desert who did not know science?

answer is, that those verses are for us, as proof that quran is word of God, even God himself said that this is for future generations

God says:

21:37 Man is created out of haste. I will show, you my signs; but do not hurry Me.

"We will show them Our signs in the Universe and inside their selves, until it will become quite clear to them that it is the truth. Is it not sufficient as regards your Lord that He is a witness over all things? (The Noble Quran, 41:53)"


what kind of signs...

these signs, in our mdoern techonlogy world

God says in quran:

Big bang

30- Do not these disbelievers see that the heavens and the earth were an integrated mass, which We then split, and from water We made all living things? Will they not believe even then? 21-The Prophets, 30

EXPANDING UNIVERSE

47- With power did We construct heaven. Verily, We are expanding it. 51-The Dispersing, 47

THE UNIVERSE IN GASEOUS/SMOKE STATE

Then He turned to the heaven when it was smoke...(The Noble Quran, 41:11)"

http://www.islam-guide.com/ch1-1-c-img1.jpg
A new star forming out of a cloud of gas and dust (nebula), which is one of the remnants of the ‘smoke’ that was the origin of the whole universe. (The Space Atlas, Heather and Henbest, p. 50.)


People during muhammed's time, had no telecsopes and microscopes and computers to comifrm these stuff, but we can confirm it now with our modern techonology...

So theis is a miracles of quran indeed, God say something about big bang and expanding of universe , people durign muhamemd''s time did not understand these stuff , they just believe in them, but then modern techonlogy come in future to confirm these stuff...that is why God says:

21:37.... I will show, you my signs; but do not hurry Me.

"[B]We will show them Our signs in the Universe and inside their selves,

this is logic , this is loigcal belief system, when you have proof for the things you believe, not like christians :D "believe and dont ask why, how, when, just believe it, no need for proof"

ciko
16-03-2012, 01:02 PM
Narrated 'Aisha: The Prophet continued for such-and-such period IMAGINING that he has slept (had sexual relations) with his wives, and in fact he did not. http://www.sahihalbukhari.com/sps/sbk/sahihalbukhari.cfm?scn=dsphadeeth&HadeethID=5673&txt=imagining

that was beacuse a jewish magician cast black magic on Muhammed, so he could not sexual intercourse with his viwes...

everyone can be hit by black magic...

The World of Jinn

Issue 4, January 1998

Throughout history man has always had a deep attraction for the supernatural and the unseen. The existence of a world parallel to our own has always fascinated people. This world is commonly referred to as the spirit world, and almost every set of people have some concept of one. With some people, these spirits are no more then the souls of dead people- or ghosts. With others, spirits are either the forces of good or the forces of evil - both battling against one another to gain influence over humanity. However, both of these explanations are more in tune with folk tales and fantasy. The true explanation of such a world comes from Islam. Like every other way, Islam also claims to explain this realm of the unseen. It is from this realm that Islam explains to us about the world of the Jinn. The Islamic explanation of the Jinn provides us with so many answers to modem day mysteries. Without the knowledge of this world, the Muslims would become like the non-Muslims and be running around looking for any old answer to come their way. So, who or what are the Jinn?

Existence

The Jinn are beings created with free will, living on earth in a world parallel to mankind. The Arabic word Jinn is from the verb 'Janna' which means to hide or conceal. Thus, they are physically invisible from man as their description suggests. This invisibility is one of the reasons why some people have denied their existence. However, (as will be seen) the affect which the world of the Jinn has upon our world, is enough to refute this modern denial of one of Allah's creation. The origins of the Jinn can be traced from the Qur'an and the Sunnah. Allah says:

"Indeed We created man from dried clay of black smooth mud. And We created the Jinn before that from the smokeless flame of fire"
(Surah Al-Hijr 15:26-27)

Thus the Jinn were created before man. As for their physical origin, then the Prophet (saws) has confirmed the above verse when he said: "The Angels were created from light and the Jinn from smokeless fire" [1]. It is this description of the Jinn which tells us so much about them. Because they were created from fire, their nature has generally been fiery and thus their relationship with man has been built upon this. Like humans, they too are required to worship Allah and follow Islam. Their purpose in life is exactly the same as ours, as Allah says:

"I did not create the Jinn and mankind except to worship Me"
(Surah Ad-Dhariyat 51:56)

Jinns can thus be Muslims or non-Muslims. However, due to their fiery nature the majority of them are non-Muslims. All these non-Muslim Jinns form a part of the army of the most famous Jinn, Iblis- the Shaytan[2]. Consequently, these disbelieving Jinns are also called Shaytans (devils). As for the Jinns who become Muslims, then the first of them did so in the time of the Prophet (saws) when a group of them were amazed by the recitation of the Qur'an. Allah orders the Prophet to tell the people of this event:

"Say (O' Muhammed): It has been revealed to me that a group of Jinn listened and said; 'Indeed we have heard a marvellous Qur'an. It guides unto righteousness so we have believed in it, and we will never make partners with our lord'"
(Surah Al-Jinn 72:1-2)

In many aspects of their world, the Jinn are very similar to us. They eat and drink, they marry, have children and they die. The life span however, is far greater then ours. Like us, they will also be subject to a Final Reckoning by Allah the Most High. They will be present with mankind on the Day of Judgement and will either go to Paradise or Hell.

Abilities

That which clearly distinguishes the Jinn from mankind, are their powers and abilities. Allah has given them these powers as a test for them. If they oppress others with them, then they will be held accountable. By knowing of their powers, we can often make sense of much of the mysteries which go on around us. One of the powers of the Jinn, is that they are able to take on any physical form they like. Thus, they can appear as humans, animals trees and anything else. Over the last few years the interest in the subject of aliens and UFO's has become heightened. Programmes such as the X-files and the Outer limits have increased the popularity of the theory that aliens exist. Thousands of people have sighted strange looking creatures all over the world. These sightings however, have still not proven substantially that aliens exist. Rather - and it seems more plausible all the sightings of such creatures were just Jinns parading in different forms. So the next time you see something that looks like E.T, its most probably just a wicked Jinn trying to scare and confuse you!

The ability to possess and take over the minds and bodies of other creatures is also a power which the Jinn have utilised greatly over the centuries. This however, is something which has been prohibited to them as it is a great oppression to possess another being. Human possession is something which has always brought about great attention. But the true knowledge of this subject is rare amongst the people. Over the last 3 decades the subject of possession has become very commercialised. During the 70's films such as The Exorcist and Rosemary's Baby were used to educate people about possession. However, because such institutions (the film industry) were heavily influenced by Christianity, knowledge of the subject was non-existent. Rather then educate people about Jinn possession, films such as The Exorcist just tended to scare the living daylights out of us![3] Only through Islam can we understand such a phenomena. We know as Muslims, that Jinns possess people for many reasons. Sometimes it is because the Jinn or its family has been hurt accidentally. It could be because the Jinn has fallen in love with the person. However, most of the time possession occurs because the Jinn is simply malicious and wicked. For this reason we have been told by the Prophet (saws) not to loiter in those places where the Jinns reside, e.g. graveyards, ruins, deserts, market places etc. We have also been commanded to recite the Qur'an frequently in our houses as the Prophet (saws) said: "Indeed, the shaytan flees from the house in which Surah Al-Baqarah (the 2nd chapter of the Qur'an) is recited" [4].

If a person does become possessed, then the name of Allah has to be used in expelling the Jinn. If we look at the practice of the Prophet and his companions, we find many duas (supplications) to exorcise the Jinn. All these duas invoke Allah to help the possessed person. How contrary this is to many modern-day exorcists. Many exorcists, Muslim and non-Muslim, often invoke the names of others besides Allah to exorcise the Jinn[5]. When the Jinn does leave, these people believe that their way was successful. However, this is a ploy of the Jinn, as it knows that if it obeys the exorcist, then it has succeeded in making him worship others besides Allah i.e. commit shirk. The Jinn often returns when the exorcist leaves, as it knows that nothing except the words of Allah can stop it from oppressing others.

It is not only humans which are possessed, but also animals, trees and other objects. By doing this, the evil Jinn hope to make people worship others besides Allah. The possession of idols is one way to do this. Not so long ago the world-wide phenomenon of Hindu idols drinking milk, shocked the world. From Bombay to London, Delhi to California, countless idols were lapping up milk. Ganesh[6] the elephant god, Hanuman the monkey god and even Shiva lingam, the male private organ(!), all seemed to guzzle down the milk as if there was no tomorrow! Unfortunately people were taken in by this (including Muslims) and many flocked to feed (?) the Hindu gods. Anyone who knows about Jinn possession, will undoubtedly know that this is a classic attempt to make people commit shirk. And it worked, as many people started to worship these lifeless pieces of wood and marble. Anyone with half a brain would say to themselves, 'why on earth does a god need to be fed?!! Surely if Ganesh, Hanuman or Shiva were divine then they wouldn't need feeding?' However, such common sense seemed to be lacking as the Jinns played havoc with these gullible people.

The Occult

Through their powers of flying and invisibility, the Jinn are the chief component in occult activities. Voodoo, Black magic, Poltergeists, Witchcraft and Mediums can all be explained through the world of the Jinn. Likewise, so can the illusions and feats of magicians. Because the Jinn can traverse huge distances over a matter of seconds, their value to magicians is great. In return for helping them in their magic, the Jinns often ask for the magicians to sell their souls to them and even to Iblis. Thus the magicians take the Jinn and Iblis as lords besides Allah. In our day, some of the feats performed by magicians and entertainers are without doubt from the assistance of the Jinn.

One of the most frequent activities associated with the Jinn, is fortune telling. Before the advent of the Prophet (saws) fortune-tellers and soothsayers were wide spread. These people would use their associates from the Jinn to find out about the future. The Jinns would go to the lowest heaven and listen to the Angels conversing amongst themselves about events of the Future which they heard from Allah. The Jinns would then inform the fortune-tellers. This is why before the time of the Prophet (saws) many fortune-tellers were very accurate in their predictions. However, upon the Prophet's arrival the heavens were guarded intensely by the Angels, and any Jinn who tried to listen was attacked by meteors (shooting stars):

"And We have guarded it (the heavens) from every accursed devil, except one who is able to snatch a hearing and he is pursued by a brightly burning flame"
(Surah Al-Hijr 15:18)

The Prophet (saws) also said: "They (the Jinn) would pass the information back down until it reaches the lips of a magician or forrtune-teller Sometimes a meteor would overtake them before they could pass it on. If they passed it on before being struck, they would add to it a hundred lies" [9]. Thus, it is clear from this as to how fortune-tellers get predictions of the future right. It is also evident as to why they get so many wrong. Men like Nostradamus[10] are an example, as some of his predictions of the future were correct whilst many were completely wrong. Unfortunately, the amount of fortune telling which occurs amongst the Muslims is also increasing. By visiting Muslim lands such as Morocco, one is able to see as to how much inter Jinn-fortune-teller activity there really is. If you look up at the sky on a clear night in Morocco, you will see the heavens ablaze with shooting stars! A clear display of the devils being chased away from the heavens.

Fortune-tellers also operate through the Qareen. The Qareen is the Jinn companion which is assigned to every human being. It is this Jinn which whispers to our base desires and constantly tries to divert us from righteousness. The Prophet (saws) said: "Everyone of you has been assigned a companion from the Jinn. The companions asked: Even you O' Messenger of Allah? And the Prophet replied: Even me, except that Allah has helped me against him and he has submitted. Now he only tells me to do good" [11]. Because the Qareen is with a person all his life, it knows all that has happened to the person from the cradle to the grave. By making contact with the Qareen, the fortune-teller is thus able to make out that it is he who knows about the person. He looks in his crystal ball or the palm of a person and proceeds to amaze him with knowledge which no one else knows[12]. The severity of going to a fortune-teller is such that the Prophet (saws) said: "The prayer of one who approaches a fortune-teller and asks him about anything, will not be accepted for forty days or nights" [13] and: "Whosoever approaches a fortune-teller and believes in what he says, has disbelieved in what was revealed to Muhammed" [14]

The effects of the Jinn are not just limited to fortune-tellers. Other activities such as oujia boards and seances, which are used to contact the dead, are manipulated by the Jinn. 'Are you there Charlie? Speak to us Charlie!!' are the sort of words spoken by anxious relatives (names are obviously different!) seeking to make contact with their loved ones. And it is when the Jinn starts to talk and communicate as 'Charlie', that the people are truly fooled[15].

One of the biggest manipulations of the Jinn is through visions. Through these visions the Jinns are more likely to lead people away from the worship of Allah then any other way. When a person sees a vision in front of his eyes it is something which is very hard to explain away. Only by having knowledge of the world of the Jinn and conviction in Allah, can a person fight such a trial. The countless numbers of visions of Jesus Christ and the Virgin Mary over the centuries has been a popular choice for the devils. It almost seems as if leading Christians astray is the most easiest trick for the Jinns! Not only are Christians fooled by these visions, but often the Jinns possess and begin to talk from their voices. To the Christians this is known as the tongues of the Angels and thus a proof for their faith. However, the amount of unintelligible nonsense and rubbish which is heard is a clear proof that this is in fact the tongues of the devils! For other people, visions of their parents or relatives are commonplace. By taking on the form of peoples parents, the Jinns can convince people that the souls of dead people still mix with the people of the earth. This is why so many people believe in ghosts.

The onslaught of satanic visions has also hit the Muslims. Many Muslims claim to have seen visions of the Prophet Muhammed (saws) and even Allah! By doing this, Shaytan is able to lead astray the weak Muslims. Through such visions, Muslims are often told that the commands of Islam are not applicable to them. The Jinns tell them that Prayer, Fasting, Hajj etc. are not obligatory for them. It is a great deception and unfortunately one which has been very effective. The extent of satanic visions still continues to this day. The recent death of Diana Princess of Wales sparked off great love and adoration for this woman. In fact the grief of the British people was such, that it was as if Diana was something divine. No sooner had the mourning of Diana reached its peak, that visions of her were already being seen at Hampton Court Palace! If these visions did occur, the desire of Iblis and his army of Jinn to capitalise on this event, was evident. Such visions are clear attempts by Iblis to lead mankind away from the path of Allah [16].

The world of the Jinn is one which is both sinister and intriguing. By knowing of this world we can explain many of the mysteries and issues which bother us. By doing this we can avoid the extremes which the people have gone to; nothing being more extreme then worshipping others besides Allah. By learning the Tawheed of Allah, we defend ourselves from these hidden allies of Iblis:

"Indeed he (Iblis) and his tribe watch you from a position where you cannot see them"
(Surah Al-A'raf 7:27)

Maybe there is a Jinn sitting in the corner of your room right now, or even one behind you. If so, then how will you deal with this creation of Allah? Learn Islam properly and you will be able to deal with all of Allah's creation - and not just the Jinn. By becoming true Muslims and followers of Islam, the fear of Iblis, Jinns and anything else will leave us - nothing will touch the Believer unless Allah wills.



Footnotes

1 Reported by Muslim - Eng. Trans. Vol. 4, p.1540, No.7134
2 It must be remembered that Iblis is a Jinn and not an Angel. The concept of the Devil being a fallen Angel is from Christianity and not Islam.
3 In fact when The Exorcist was first shown on cinema, it was so scary that many people fainted and one even died!
4 Authentic - Reported by Tirmidhee
5 Whilst Christians invoke the name of Jesus, many Muslims invoke the name of pious Muslim saints! The rituals which are conducted by many Muslims are more akin to voodoo then the exorcism practised by the Prophet and his companions!!
6 Ganesh, the elephant headed deity, seemed to be the biggest drinker! In fact it didn't just stop at milk. At the time of these occurrences, a woman in India decided to see if Ganesh would drink anything else - so she offered him whiskey!! And Lo and behold Ganesh drank the Whiskey!!! Suffice to say, the woman was kicked out of India.
7 The ship which was recovered was more then 50 years old. It subsequently caught alight and was conveniently destroyed.
8 Authentic - Reported by Tirmidhee
9 Reported by Bukhari - Eng. Trans. Vol.7, p.439, No.657
10 Michel de Nostradamus was a famous French soothsayer of the 16th century.
11 Reported by Muslim - Eng. Trans. Vol.4, p.1472, No.6757
12 The classic example of how fortune tellers can be wrong is the case of Diana, Princess of Wales and Dodi Fayed. Both went to see a fortune teller who told Diana that she would live a long and happy life. A few weeks later, on August 31st 1997, Diana and Dodi Fayed were dead. After this the fortune tellers flew for cover, as their evil art showed its decadence.
13 Reported by Muslim - Eng. Trans. Vol.4, p.1211, No.5540
14 Authentic - Reported by Ahmed
15 Ouija boards are so misleading, that people have even managed to get in touch with the spirit of Jack the Ripper!!
16 An informative book on the world of the Jinn is Ibn Taymeeyah's Essay on the Jinn translated by Abu Ameenah Bilal Phillips.


Healing with quran from Jinn possession and black magic, Islamic exorcism

video_rukja lijecenje kuranom - YouTube

lijecenje kuranom 1.dio.wmv - YouTube

Video rukje profesora Ferida Orahovca Lijecenje Kur'anom 2 dio - YouTube

Killing a Jinn inside humanbody
Ubijanje dzinna u telu coveka - YouTube

Talking to Jinn during healing process
Exorcism in Islam | Scary | Arabic | English subs - YouTube

adam 7
16-03-2012, 01:38 PM
what amazing halucinations he had :D

Muhammed, Moses, Jesus, St Paul, Emanuel Swedenborg, Ignatius Loyola, John Wesley, etc etc all had disorders of the mind. They were chasimatic leaders, religious zelots and psychotics. A toxic mix.

Their lifestyles predisposed them to the disease of epilepsy through fasting and self-denial.

Hallucinations, visual or orditory i.e. hearing voices, are a mental illness.

These hallucinations are more common in the more savage and barborous minds.

Muhammed claimed to see jinn and angels, and hear voices. Such a person would today be called psychotic.

In 7th century arabia the people there were primitive, little more than primitive savages actually.

In addition they were highly guillable.

The believers of Muhammed werent however the ones who were delusional. They were just gullible fools.

Muhammed himself was the one who was psychotic and delusional.

He was the one suffering mental illness. The rest just went along with it, through superstition and gullibility.

If you yourself feel you are under attack by jinn or demons, please seek treatment. You would be insane.

Please think. The quran or any other "holy book" is simply psychosis, written down, used to convince (brainwash) others to believe in the hallucinations, and then indoctrinated in children (brainwashing), and is no basis for a sane belief system.

saint_frankenstein
16-03-2012, 01:58 PM
Muhammed, Moses, Jesus, St Paul, Emanuel Swedenborg, Ignatius Loyola, John Wesley, etc etc all had disorders of the mind. They were chasimatic leaders, religious zelots and psychotics. A toxic mix.

Their lifestyles predisposed them to the disease of epilepsy through fasting and self-denial.

Hallucinations, visual or orditory i.e. hearing voices, are a mental illness.

These hallucinations are more common in the more savage and barborous minds.

Muhammed claimed to see jinn and angels, and hear voices. Such a person would today be called psychotic.

In 7th century arabia the people there were primitive, little more than primitive savages actually.

In addition they were highly guillable.

The believers of Muhammed werent however the ones who were delusional. They were just gullible fools.

Muhammed himself was the one who was psychotic and delusional.

He was the one suffering mental illness. The rest just went along with it, through superstition and gullibility.

If you yourself feel you are under attack by jinn or demons, please seek treatment. You would be insane.

Please think. The quran or any other "holy book" is simply psychosis, written down, used to convince (brainwash) others to believe in the hallucinations, and then indoctrinated in children (brainwashing), and is no basis for a sane belief system.

So I take it you are a materialist? You don't believe in any spiritual realities? Just curious.

Personally, I think that modern psychiatry is mostly a failure, in that it only focuses on the physical nature of man and treating "mental illness" as a physical disease.

picha
16-03-2012, 02:05 PM
Three Things About Islam - YouTube

picha
16-03-2012, 02:07 PM
Maybe they could lock them ALL up in a room somewhere with a Big Screen TV and let them watch Happy Days reruns.

Let THE FONZ show them What it IS to be COOL!

Happy Days Presentation (3) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XNl-J7rj488&feature=related)

"HEYYYyyyyyyyy!!!" (The Fonz)

It really is a shame - because the scandinavian countries were known for being very successful and modern societies. I hope they get their countries back to what they were.

adam 7
16-03-2012, 02:08 PM
So I take it you are a materialist? You don't believe in any spiritual realities? Just curious.

I am in an ex-christian, in a transition phase at the moment.

I do believe there is some kind of spiritual reality.

Its just ciko's post about morrocans being under attack by jinn (very silly); set me off on a bit of a rant :D

ciko
16-03-2012, 02:15 PM
I am in an ex-christian, in a transition phase at the moment.

I do believe there is some kind of spiritual reality.

Its just ciko's post about morrocans being under attack by jinn (very silly); set me off on a bit of a rant :D


Its just ciko's post about morrocans being under attack by jinn (very silly); set me off on a bit of a rant

it is very easy to cinfirm existence of Jinn even with the help of internet, just listen to chapter Baqarah on youtube, shut your eyes, relax and listen, then you will know if there is jinn or not...but you would not dare to try this beacuse you are coward ;)

i have done exorcism to other people, i know what i am talking about

saint_frankenstein
16-03-2012, 02:15 PM
I am in an ex-christian, in a transition phase at the moment.

I do believe there is some kind of spiritual reality.

Its just ciko's post about morrocans being under attack by jinn (very silly); set me off on a bit of a rant :D

Ah, I see. I just believe that psychiatry's tendency to dub an individual's experience of reality, when it differs from what is accepted as "absolute reality", as "mental illness" to be very problematic. That's all.

ciko
16-03-2012, 02:21 PM
if you people dont believe me what i am talking about, then try for yourself and see if there is Jinns or not, you can test it, right here right now

i say to everyone on this forum to test this, this is only way to cause paranormal activity by your own free will, and you will see if you are hit by Jinns

Stay in front of computer, relax, calm down, shut your eyes, focus on Quran recitation chapter Baqarah, listen 20-30 min and see what will happen to your body

click here
002 Sura al-Baqarah - Mishary al-Afasy - YouTube


VARNING...

DONT LISTEN TO THIS WHILE DRIVING A CAR, you can pass out

ciko
16-03-2012, 02:55 PM
intresting experiment with quran

Effects of Quran Vs Effects of Music on an apple! Shared By: Quanita Rizvi
Alhuda Institute Canada

Bismillah

Assalamoalaikum wrwb

Few weeks ago my daughter, who is in first grade had a science fair at her school. We decided to do an interesting experiment. Our Hypothesis was that listening to Qur’an has physical effects just like listening to music has physically visible effects. To prove our point we took an apple which also has 60-70 percent water content like human bodies. We cut the apple into half, put each half in a zip lock bag and then for seven days played Qur’an for one half of the apple and music to another half of the apple .. Both apples were kept on room temperature. The results were amazing and so our hypothesis was accepted.

In Quran Surah Luqman Allah(s.a.w) says:
And of mankind is he who purchases idle talks (i.e.music, singing, etc.) to mislead (men) from the Path of Allâh without knowledge, and takes it (the Path of Allâh, or the Verses of the Qur’ân) by way of mockery. For such there will be a humiliating torment (in the Hell-fire).(6)

In surah Yunus Allah SWt says about Quran:
O mankind! There hath come to you a admonition from your Lord and a healing for the (diseases) in your hearts and for those who believe, a Guidance and a Mercy. (57)

Please look at the attached pictures. The first picture is of the apple when it was freshly cut. Second picture is after 3 weeks of the experiment.

JazakAllah Khiaran

http://javeria.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/dsc00024.jpeg?w=300&h=225

http://javeria.files.wordpress.com/2011/03/dsc00027.jpeg
Left: Music Apple Right: Quran Apple

http://javeria.wordpress.com/2011/03/07/effects-of-quran-vs-effects-of-music-on-an-apple/


The above account was amazing. Thus, the staff at Reflections, a school in Karachi repeated the experiment to verify it. Below is the email sent by Asim Ismail, the Islamic curriculum head of the school.

For two weeks the teacher played music in front of half of an apple for 10 mins daily. While qirat was played in front of the other half for the same duration…the pictures speak for themselves (original pictures)…the rotten half is the one which heard music, and the comparatively fresh one was made to listen to Quran’s recitation… SUBHANALLAH! one more amazing thing is the Quran apple has a good smell and the other one u can imagine.

http://discomaulvi.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/good-apple_thumb.jpg?w=244&h=184

http://discomaulvi.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/rotten-apple_thumb.jpg?w=244&h=184

http://discomaulvi.files.wordpress.com/2011/08/both-apples_thumb.jpg?w=244&h=184

God said in quran:

Verily, in the remembrance of Allah do hearts find rest”(Surah ar’Ra’d 13:28)

Subhan’Allah. May Allah help us to protect our hearts from corruption and to heal it with the remembrance of Allah (SWT) and the recitation of the Quran. Aameen.

http://discomaulvi.wordpress.com/2011/08/20/effect-music-vs-quran-on-apple-heart/

Non muslim experment with islamic holy water Zamzam

Dr. Knut Pfeiffer: Islam's Zamzam water positive effect on human cells - YouTube
Dr. Knut Pfeiffer, is Christian German doctor specialist in internal medicine. For more info: www.pst-knutpfeiffer.de . He has discovered that Zamam water has far more positive effect on human cells than regular drinking water from Munich, Germany. He also believes that Islamic prayers are more positive effect on the energy and thus health than Christian prayers.

Zamzam water comes from a spring in Mecca created by God to save the life of Hajar (Abraham's wife) and her son Ishmael when they were in the desert.

adam 7
16-03-2012, 04:30 PM
A loving deity would not send anyone to hell fire, thats preposterous

ciko
16-03-2012, 08:09 PM
A loving deity would not send anyone to hell fire, thats preposterous

i ask you again and again and again and again

WHAT WOULD GOD DO TO HITLER, ANSWER ME THIS QUESTION.

YOU ARE TELLING US HERE ALL THE TIME

loving deity would not send anyone to hell

BUT YOU DONT ANSWER TO THE QUESTION

WHAT WOULD GOD DO TO HITLER?

vooei
16-03-2012, 08:17 PM
i ask you again and again and again and again

WHAT WOULD GOD DO TO HITLER, ANSWER ME THIS QUESTION.

YOU ARE TELLING US HERE ALL THE TIME

loving deity would not send anyone to hell

BUT YOU DONT ANSWER TO THE QUESTION

WHAT WOULD GOD DO TO HITLER?


My question:

Why would a all knowing, all present, all loving god create such people as Hitler in the first place ? Surely your god would have known what the outcome would be waaaaay in advance, so why would your god do such a thing ? Also, how could hitler be punished for crimes your god knew he was destined to commit anyways ?

ciko
16-03-2012, 08:21 PM
My question:

Why would a all knowing, all present, all loving god create such people as Hitler in the first place ? Surely your god would have known what the outcome would be waaaaay in advance, so why would your god do such a thing ? Also, how could hitler be punished for crimes your god knew he was destined to commit anyways ?

if you read quran you would know why, but you dont want to read quran, and like to spit on it in every single day, that is why you ask yourself such question...

vooei
16-03-2012, 08:39 PM
if you read quran you would know why, but you dont want to read quran, and like to spit on it in every single day, that is why you ask yourself such question...

Just as I thought, the religious fanatic can't answer a logical question.

major seven
16-03-2012, 08:51 PM
So Ciko,

How come you ain't living in Saudi Arabia or some other country with Sharia law?

Why Europe?

Shariamerica: Islam, Obama, and the Establishment Clause - YouTube

pert
16-03-2012, 10:12 PM
i know you dont like this, but how it really is,

like God said in quran:

61:8 they wish to put Allah’s Light out with their mouths. But He will perfect His light, even though the disbelievers hate it;

9. it is He who sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth to show that it is above all [other] religions, even though the idolaters hate it.

now we see that promise of God in front of our eyes

World fastest growing religion: Islam - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4JlAjH-BXo&feature=related)

BBC News Islam is the Fastest Growing Religion in London. - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DNWs2yozNw)

BBC News Europeans converting to islam - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3ersDmrIdo&feature=related)

I've heard this argument before, you always fail to mention that other religions cant prostlytyse freely in Muslim countries and that Muslims in a lot of cases cant convert to other religions on pain of death or ostracism. So Muslims claiming Islam is the fastest growing religion is like a child boasting that it's won a game it made up the rules to

picha
16-03-2012, 10:21 PM
So Ciko,

How come you ain't living in Saudi Arabia or some other country with Sharia law?

Why Europe?

Shariamerica: Islam, Obama, and the Establishment Clause - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErzxOz3Dzv8&feature=related)

Nice video - especially the ending.

itruth
16-03-2012, 11:09 PM
that was beacuse a jewish magician cast black magic on Muhammed, so he could not sexual intercourse with his viwes...

everyone can be hit by black magic...


Wow, so allahs prophet was under the control of black magic. How many koran revelations did muhummad claim when under the control of black magic?

everyone can be hit by black magic

Ermm, yeah? wheres the evidence?

were your parents under the control of black magic?

Allahs prophet and your best of creation was under the control of black magic, used by satan and as toy and took instuctions from demons.

But to claim everyone can be under the control of black magic is a lie and it also makes your god allah look weak and impotent.

Num 23:23 Surely there is no enchantment against Jacob, neither is there any divination against Israel.

cwl3
16-03-2012, 11:14 PM
Their lifestyles predisposed them to the disease of epilepsy through fasting and self-denial.

During the neonatal period and early infancy the most common causes include hypoxic-ischemic encephalopathy, CNS infections, trauma, congenital CNS abnormalities, and metabolic disorders.
During late infancy and early childhood, febrile seizures are fairly common. These may be caused by many different things, some thought to be things such as CNS infections and trauma.
During childhood, well-defined epilepsy syndromes are generally seen.
During adolescence and adulthood, the causes are more likely to be secondary to any CNS lesion. Further, idiopathic epilepsy is less common. Other causes associated with these age groups are stress, trauma, CNS infections, brain tumors, illicit drug use and alcohol withdrawal.
In older adults, cerebrovascular disease is a very common cause. Other causes are CNS tumors, head trauma, and other degenerative diseases that are common in the older age group, such as dementia.[13]



I checked the causes of epilepsy and it turns out you are a liar :)

ciko
16-03-2012, 11:20 PM
Just as I thought, the religious fanatic can't answer a logical question.

are you sure:rolleyes:


My question:

Why would a all knowing, all present, all loving god create such people as Hitler in the first place ? Surely your god would have known what the outcome would be waaaaay in advance, so why would your god do such a thing ? Also, how could hitler be punished for crimes your god knew he was destined to commit anyways ?


Why would a all knowing, all present, all loving god create such people as Hitler in the first place ?

same question is why would God create Devil he allways do evil?

God answers why

God said in quran:

21:35 Every soul will know the taste of death. We test you all through the bad and the good, and to Us you will all return.

so we can say that evil wich happens can be either a test or punishment...

ciko
16-03-2012, 11:25 PM
So Ciko,

How come you ain't living in Saudi Arabia or some other country with Sharia law?

Why Europe?

Shariamerica: Islam, Obama, and the Establishment Clause - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ErzxOz3Dzv8&feature=related)

beacuse i am european

itruth
16-03-2012, 11:32 PM
Muslims in Egypt turn to Coptic Christians for help because neither allah nor muhummad could help them:
Muslims Turn to Coptic Priest for Exorcism 1 (Warning: NOT for Children!!) - YouTube
orthodox exorcism - YouTube
Muslims Turn to Coptic Priest for Exorcism 2 (Warning: NOT for Children!!) - YouTube
Muslims Turn to Coptic Priest for Exorcism 3 (Warning: NOT for Children!!) - YouTube
Muslims Turn to Coptic Priest for Exorcism 4 (Warning: NOT for Children!!) - YouTube

vooei
16-03-2012, 11:33 PM
are you sure:rolleyes:

same question is why would God create Devil he allways do evil?

God answers why

God said in quran:

21:35 Every soul will know the taste of death. We test you all through the bad and the good, and to Us you will all return.

so we can say that evil wich happens can be either a test or punishment...

That explains nothing, it actually leads us to ask more logic based questions:

Your god is meant to be all knowing, so how can something be a test when the answer is already known ?

And because your god is all knowing, and apparently all loving, why would he willingly create something he would know he was going to punish ?

itruth
16-03-2012, 11:38 PM
i ask you again and again and again and again

WHAT WOULD GOD DO TO HITLER, ANSWER ME THIS QUESTION.

YOU ARE TELLING US HERE ALL THE TIME

loving deity would not send anyone to hell

BUT YOU DONT ANSWER TO THE QUESTION

WHAT WOULD GOD DO TO HITLER?

Whatever God would do to hitler, you can bet what he would do to muhummad would be worse.

Even muhummad had no idea what allah would do with him or the muslims.

Say: "I am no bringer of new-fangled doctrine among the messengers, nor do i know what will be done with me or with you. I follow but that which is revealed to me by inspiration; I am but a Warner open and clear." S. 46:9


By Allah, though I am the Apostle of Allah, yet I do not know what Allah will do to me. Sahih Bukhari http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=I+do+not+know+what+Allah+ will+do+to+me&translator=1&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=exact

major seven
17-03-2012, 07:53 AM
beacuse i am european



Right!

But were you BORN a European?

OR are you an IMMIGRANT?

Either way, YOU obviously HATE Western Ways and would prefer Sharia Law.

So, WHY are You in Europe?

You say you speak ARAB, so WHY hang around a Western culture which You obviously HATE?

Why not move somewhere where Sharia is the Norm and be surrounded with like minded IDIOTS?

selig
17-03-2012, 10:02 AM
i know you dont like this, but how it really is,

like God said in quran:

61:8 they wish to put Allah’s Light out with their mouths. But He will perfect His light, even though the disbelievers hate it;

9. it is He who sent His Messenger with guidance and the religion of truth to show that it is above all [other] religions, even though the idolaters hate it.

now we see that promise of God in front of our eyes

World fastest growing religion: Islam - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=v4JlAjH-BXo&feature=related)

BBC News Islam is the Fastest Growing Religion in London. - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3DNWs2yozNw)

BBC News Europeans converting to islam - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e3ersDmrIdo&feature=related)

This really is a bad case of circular logic.

The quran says people (with a bit of common sense) won't believe it, people with common sense don't believe it, ergo everything in the quran is true.

Absolute madness.

selig
17-03-2012, 10:11 AM
halucinations about big bang, expansion of universe, and other astronomical stuff, about embriology, oceanology, metheorology, medicine, biology.....

what amazing halucinations he had :D

I've said it before but the simple fact that the quran and the hadiths talk about the 7 heavens, the rising and falling of the stars (in their orbit), the orbit of the sun and the prostrating of the sun under the throne of god shows that the quran was written by people who believed in a geocentric universe and that it could not have been written by a so-called creator god.

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/-tuFx4D9E4m0/TiWT3vvB8oI/AAAAAAAAAgw/zIl6Jp5xoSI/s1600/Ancient%252520Cosmology2.jpg

ciko
17-03-2012, 10:16 AM
Muslims in Egypt turn to Coptic Christians for help because neither allah nor muhummad could help them:
Muslims Turn to Coptic Priest for Exorcism 1 (Warning: NOT for Children!!) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=60Ju1zFUIsM)
orthodox exorcism - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VLHft6xyGh0)
Muslims Turn to Coptic Priest for Exorcism 2 (Warning: NOT for Children!!) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z9N6Z-UYrZU)
Muslims Turn to Coptic Priest for Exorcism 3 (Warning: NOT for Children!!) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ohg5NDRk5bw&feature=related)
Muslims Turn to Coptic Priest for Exorcism 4 (Warning: NOT for Children!!) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gR6I2W6z6yw)


Muslims in Egypt turn to Coptic Christians for help because neither allah nor muhummad could help them:

hahahahah, this is funny, this show nonsense of your talk

EVERY MUSLIM KNOW THAT MUHAMMED CAN NOT HELP ANYONE RIGHT KNOW, IF WE BELIEVED THAT MUHAMMED CAN HELP ME NOW OR ANYBODY ELSE, WE WOULD COMMIT SHIRK, SETTING PARTNER WITH ALLAH.

i as an exorcist know how stupid muslims can be with their own relgion, they even dont know basics of islam, so how can God help them when they search cure against Jinns with black magicians, priests and others...

i can even explain to you how priest do their exoricism, and what jinns do in islamic and christian exorcism , what processes going on in those two different exorcism.

ciko
17-03-2012, 10:27 AM
That explains nothing, it actually leads us to ask more logic based questions:

Your god is meant to be all knowing, so how can something be a test when the answer is already known ?

And because your god is all knowing, and apparently all loving, why would he willingly create something he would know he was going to punish ?


That explains nothing, it actually leads us to ask more logic based questions:

when something ad happens, according to islamic belief system, it can be a test, punishment or even God's mercy.

Holocaust was either test or punishment from God.

And if something bad happens and people start to change themselves to better person after these bad incidents then it can be God's mercy.


Your god is meant to be all knowing, so how can something be a test when the answer is already known ?

no, you dont thinking ok

God does not need to test us to know how we are, he test us to show us how we are, so we can not say on the day of judgment, why did you punish me, or why did you reward me. that is how it works


And because your god is all knowing, and apparently all loving, why would he willingly create something he would know he was going to punish?

God says:

51:56 I created jinn and mankind only to worship Me

those who does not want to be with God in paradise, and choose satan's path choose to be in hell, that is their own choice.

God calls them to paradise, a satan calls people to hell , but most people choose hell...

selig
17-03-2012, 10:40 AM
i ask you again and again and again and again

WHAT WOULD GOD DO TO HITLER, ANSWER ME THIS QUESTION.

YOU ARE TELLING US HERE ALL THE TIME

loving deity would not send anyone to hell

BUT YOU DONT ANSWER TO THE QUESTION

WHAT WOULD GOD DO TO HITLER?

He's in paradise with muhammed and all the Muslim SS members.:rolleyes:

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/images/muslim_nazi_soldiers.gif

http://ivarfjeld.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/hitler_al_husseini.jpg?w=450&h=336

I'd be interested in knowing what you think it was that kept Hitler out of paradise. It couldn't have been him having people killed or using people as slaves because Muhammed did that too, so what was it that kept Hitler out of paradise?

Other than he wasn't a Muslim.

"We do not know whether Hitler is going to found a new Islam. He is already on the way; he is like Muhammad. The emotion in Germany is Islamic; warlike and Islamic. They are all drunk with wild god. That can be the historic future." - Carl Yung

ciko
17-03-2012, 10:54 AM
He's in paradise with muhammed and all the Muslim SS members.:rolleyes:

http://atlasshrugs2000.typepad.com/atlas_shrugs/images/muslim_nazi_soldiers.gif

http://ivarfjeld.files.wordpress.com/2012/01/hitler_al_husseini.jpg?w=450&h=336

I'd be interested in knowing what you think it was that kept Hitler out of paradise. It couldn't have been him having people killed or using people as slaves because Muhammed did that too, so what was it that kept Hitler out of paradise?

Other than he wasn't a Muslim.

"We do not know whether Hitler is going to found a new Islam. He is already on the way; he is like Muhammad. The emotion in Germany is Islamic; warlike and Islamic. They are all drunk with wild god. That can be the historic future." - Carl Yung

everyone who do evil shall go to hell and dies without repenting to God.

even those Nazi muslims shall pay on the day of Judgment for every single evil deed they did.

selig
17-03-2012, 10:57 AM
everyone who do evil shall go to hell and dies without repenting to God.

even those Nazi muslims shall pay on the day of Judgment for every single evil deed they did.

Does that mean Muhammed is in hell too?

If not why not?

ciko
17-03-2012, 10:59 AM
Does that mean Muhammed is in hell too?

If not why not?

what did he do wrong?

selig
17-03-2012, 11:05 AM
what did he do wrong?

Just like Hitler he kept slaves and had people murdered.

http://hraic.com/hadith/ibn_ishaq.html#introduction

Why do you feel it is ok for Muhammed to keep slaves and have people murdered but not Hitler?

vooei
17-03-2012, 11:14 AM
halucinations about big bang,

Islamic creation belief

Islam shares with Judaism and Christianity the story of a world-creating divine act, spaced out over six periods.The Islamic creation account, like the Hebrew one, involves Adam and Eve as the first parents, living in paradise. As in the Hebrew story, God warns Adam and Eve not to eat fruit from a certain tree, but they do anyway, earning expulsion from Paradise.

Re-hashed creation myth fairy tale that has nothing to do with the big bang theory.

The creation narrative of Islam is further developed in many verses in the Qur'an. According to the Qur'an, the skies and the earth were joined together as one "unit of creation", after which they were "cloved asunder".After the parting of both, they simultaneously came into their present shape after going through a phase when they were smoke-like.

WRONG

The Big Bang theory is the prevailing cosmological model that explains the early development of the Universe. According to the Big Bang theory, the Universe was once in an extremely hot and dense state which expanded rapidly. This rapid expansion caused the young Universe to cool and resulted in its present continuously expanding state. According to the most recent measurements and observations, this original state existed approximately 13.7 billion years ago, which is considered the age of the Universe and the time the Big Bang occurred.After its initial expansion from a singularity, the Universe cooled sufficiently to allow energy to be converted into various subatomic particles. It would take thousands of years for some of these particles (protons, neutrons, and electrons) to combine and form atoms, the building blocks of matter. The first element produced was hydrogen, along with traces of helium and lithium. Eventually, clouds of hydrogen would coalesce through gravity to form stars, and the heavier elements would be synthesized either within stars or during supernovae.

Some parts of the Qur'an state that the process of creation took 6 days.While other parts claim that the process took 8 days: 2 days to create the Earth,4 days to create the mountains, to bless the Earth and to measure its sustenance,and then 2 more days to create the heavens and the stars.
However, the consensus among Muslim scholars is that the process of creation took 6 days, not 8; They claim that the 4 days for creating the mountains, blessing the Earth and measuring its sustenance implicitly include the 2 days for creating the Earth.

Thats completely wrong and totally against the big bang theory that Ciko is claiming the Quran corresponds with

In light of modern scientific knowledge about the origins of the earth and the universe, many modern interpretations particularly by apologists, prefer to view the word "day" (Arabic: يوم) as used in the Qur'an to mean an arbitrary period of time or epoch; They justify this view by explaining that the usage of the word "day" to mean an arbitrary period of time is not uncommon.

Clearly again, it shows the Quran is wrong in the light of modern day scientific knowledge, thus islamic apologetics have to lie on its behalf.

The Qur'an states that God created the world and the cosmos, made all the creatures that walk, swim, crawl, and fly on the face of the earth from water.

The Quran is obviously incorrect as everything is not made from water, water itself is made from the combination of two gases, hydrogen and oxygen.

He made the angels, and the sun, moon and the stars to dwell in the universe. He poured down the rain in torrents, and broke up the soil to bring forth the corn, the grapes and other vegetation; the olive and the palm, the fruit trees and the grass.
God molded clay, earth, sand and water into a model of a man. He breathed life and power into it, and it immediately sprang to life. And this first man was called Adam. God took Adam to live in Paradise. God taught Adam the names of all the creatures, and then commanded all the angels to bow down before Adam. All of them bowed but Iblis (Lucifer) refused to obey.
God placed the couple in a beautiful garden in Paradise, telling them that they could eat whatever they wanted except the fruit of a forbidden tree. But Iblis (the Serpent) tempted them to disobey God, and eat the fruit. When God knew that Adam and Eve had disobeyed him, he cast them out of Paradise and sent them to the earth.

Fairy tale nonsense.

expansion of universe,

Buddha was talking about expanding universes over 2500 years ago:

Aggañña Sutta

In the Aggañña Sutta, found in the Pali Canon, the Buddha does appear to give a highly detailed answer to this issue. The Buddha, speaking to the monk Vasettha, a former Brahmin, states the following:
‘There comes a time, Vasettha, when, sooner or later after a long period this world contracts. At a time of contraction, beings are mostly born in the Abhassara Brahma world. And there they dwell, mind-made, feeding on delight, self luminous, moving through the air, glorious—and they stay like that for a very long time. But sooner or later, after a very long period, this world begins to expand again. At a time of expansion, the beings from the Abhassara Brahma world, having passed away from there, are mostly reborn in this world. Here they dwell, mind-made, feeding on delight, self-luminous, moving through the air, glorious— and they stay like that for a very long time. At that period, Vasettha, there was just one mass of water, and all was darkness, blinding darkness. Neither moon nor sun appeared, no constellations or stars appeared, night and day were not yet distinguished, nor months and fortnights, nor years and seasons; there was no male and female, beings being reckoned just as beings. And sooner or later, after a very long period of time, savory earth spread itself over the waters where those beings were. It looked just like the skin that forms itself over hot milk as it cools. It was endowed with color, smell, and taste. It was the color of fine ghee or butter and it was very sweet, like pure wild honey.

Because the Buddha seems to present a model of cosmology wherein the universe expands and contracts over extremely long periods of time, this description has been found by some to be consistent with the expanding universe model and Big Bang. The Buddha seems to be saying here that the universe expands outward, reaches a stabilising point, and then reverts its motion back toward a central point resulting in its destruction, this process again to be repeated infinitely. Throughout this expanding and contracting process, the objects found within the universe undergo periods of development and change over a long stretch of time, according to the environment in which they find themselves. Following this passage above, the Buddha goes on to say that the "beings" he described in this paragraph become attached to an earthlike planet, get reborn there, and remain there for the duration of the life. As a consequence of this, physical characteristics change and evolutionary changes takes place. This is often interpreted as a very rough theory of evolution. Furthermore, the Aggañña Sutta presents water as pre-existent to earthlike planets, with the planet forming with water and the life moving from the water onto the earth. The Buddha does not talk about a specific earth, but about earthlike planets in general.


and other astronomical stuff,

Astronomy is thousands of years old.

http://library.thinkquest.org/29033/history/history.htm


about embriology,

The embryology in the Quran is WRONG. And it was copied from Aristotle and Galen who were theorising on embryology a thousand years prior to Muhammad being born, it is primitive science.

GALEN'S STAGES OF PRENATAL DEVELOPMENT
Stage 1. The two semens
Stage 1b. plus menstrual blood
Stage 2. unshaped flesh
Stage 3. bones
Stage 3b. flesh grows on and around the bones

QURANIC STAGES OF PRENATAL DEVELOPMENT
Stage 1. nutfa -- sperm
Stage 2. alaqa -- clot
Stage 3. mudagha -- piece or lump of flesh
Stage 4. adaam -- bones
Stage 5. dressing the bones with muscles

what amazing halucinations he had :D

Just an amazing memory it seems, as he heavily repeated what other people had been saying long before him.

If there is a cosmic scheme of justice he's probably been reincarnated as a parrot.

itruth
17-03-2012, 12:36 PM
hahahahah, this is funny, this show nonsense of your talk

EVERY MUSLIM KNOW THAT MUHAMMED CAN NOT HELP ANYONE RIGHT KNOW, IF WE BELIEVED THAT MUHAMMED CAN HELP ME NOW OR ANYBODY ELSE, WE WOULD COMMIT SHIRK, SETTING PARTNER WITH ALLAH.

i as an exorcist know how stupid muslims can be with their own relgion, they even dont know basics of islam, so how can God help them when they search cure against Jinns with black magicians, priests and others...

i can even explain to you how priest do their exoricism, and what jinns do in islamic and christian exorcism , what processes going on in those two different exorcism.

EVERY MUSLIM KNOW THAT MUHAMMED CAN NOT HELP ANYONE RIGHT KNOW, IF WE BELIEVED THAT MUHAMMED CAN HELP ME NOW OR ANYBODY ELSE, WE WOULD COMMIT SHIRK, SETTING PARTNER WITH ALLAH.

Ciko, your ignorance is astounding.

Did I not say that NEITHER muhummad NOR ALLAH (Your god) CAN HELP THEM?

Muhummad is long dead, he can't help no one.

If there was anything FROM ALLAH AND MUHUMMAD that could help them they would have gone to allah and muhummad (muhummads teachings/koran/example/ect..). But because there is nothing in islamic teachings to do with healing people the muslims of egypt WHO ALL KNOW ISLAM/KORAN/ALLAH/MUHUMMAD 100 TIMES BETTER THAN YOU went to the coptic christians for help BECAUSE THEY KNEW THAT THE COPTIC CHRISTIANS FOLLOW A GOD WHO DOES HEAL.

Luk 18:38 And he (the blind man) cried, saying, Jesus, thou Son of David, have mercy on me. 39. And they which went before rebuked him, that he should hold his peace: but he cried so much the more, Thou Son of David, have mercy on me.
Luk 18:40 And Jesus stood, and commanded him to be brought unto him: and when he was come near, he asked him, :41 ..What wilt thou that I shall do unto thee? And he said, Lord, that I may receive my sight.
42 And Jesus said unto him, Receive thy sight: thy faith hath saved thee. 43 And immediately he received his sight, and followed him, glorifying God: and all the people, when they saw it, gave praise unto God

I tell you the truth, anyone who has faith in me will do what I have been doing. He will do even greater things than these.... John14.12.

"And I WILL DO whatever you ask IN MY NAME, so that the Son may bring glory to the Father. You may ask ME for anything in my name, AND I WILL DO IT." John 14:13-14

COPTIC CHRISTIANS FOLLOWING THEIR OWN GODS EXAMPLE AND MAKING BLIND MUSLIMS SEE (LITERALLY):

Muslim Boy cured of blindness by coptic christians because muhummad or allah couldn’t help. Muhummad actually turned his back on a blind man that came to him for help (sura 80.2). ‫معجزة رهيبه على يد ابونا مكارى يونان اعمى يبصر15-10-2010‬‎ - YouTube

Mat 4:24 And his fame went throughout all Syria: and they brought unto him all sick people that were taken with divers diseases and torments, and those which were possessed with devils, and those which were lunatick, and those that had the palsy; and he healed them.


So therefore, the person you muslims call a prophet (jesus) is healing blind people TODAY ALSO.

But your prophet muhumad and your god allah couldn't heal people WHEN MUHUMMAD WAS AROUND, NOR CAN BLIND PEOPLE TODAY BE HEALED BY BY CALLING ON YOUR GOD ALLAH.

When the blind man came to muhummad for help about islam muhummad turned away from the blind man "WITH BAD FACE":

He [muhummad] frowned and turned away. Because the blind man came unto him [80:1-2]. Asbab Al-Nuzul by Al-Wahidi , trans. Mokrane Guezzou. http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=86&tSoraNo=80&tAyahNo=1&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2

And from his narration on the authority of Ibn 'Abbas that he said regarding the interpretation of Allah's saying (He frowned): '(He frowned) He says: Muhammad (pbuh) showed a stern face (and turned away) his face. Sura 80.1. Tafsir ibn abbas. http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=73&tSoraNo=80&tAyahNo=1&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2

He, the Prophet, frowned, glowered with his face, and turned away. Tafsir al jalalayn. http://www.altafsir.com/Tafasir.asp?tMadhNo=0&tTafsirNo=74&tSoraNo=80&tAyahNo=1&tDisplay=yes&UserProfile=0&LanguageId=2

And this is why the human beings who venerate muhummad turn into living demons and would turn away blind people because they have a dog guiding them. MUHUMMAD TURNED AWAY FROM BLIND PEOPLE AND HAD THE DOGS KILLED:

Ibn 'Umar (Allah be pleased with them) reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) giving command for killing dogs. Muslim 10; 3809

BLIND PEOPLE REFUSED ENTRY ONTO BUSES BECAUSE THE MUSLIM BUS DRIVERS DON'T LIKE DOGS, EVEN THOUGH GUIDE DOGS FOR THE BLIND ARE ALLOWED ONTO BUSES: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1295749/Muslim-bus-drivers-refuse-let-guide-dogs-board.html

TURNING YOUR BACK ON BLIND PEOPLE IS THE EXAMPLE OF MUHUMMAD.

After a blind man HAD ASSASINATED A WOMAN SLEEPING IN HER BED SURROUNDED BY HER SMALL CHILDREN MUHUMMAD BLESSED THE MAN AND CALLING THE BLIND MAN "THE SEEING".

AFTER muhummads thugs had murdered a man of 120 as he slept (his crime - writing poems), a lady named asma criticized people for allowing for this to happen:

`Asma' was the wife of Yazid ibn Zayd ibn Hisn al-Khatmi. She used to revile Islam, offend the prophet and instigate the (people) against him. She composed verses. Umayr Ibn Adi came to her in the night and entered her house. Her children were sleeping around her. There was one whom she was suckling. He searched her with his hand because he was blind, and separated the child from her. He thrust his sword in her chest till it pierced up to her back. Then he offered the morning prayers with the prophet at al-Medina. The apostle of Allâh said to him: ‘Have you slain the daughter of Marwan?’ He said: ‘Yes. Is there something more for me to do?’ He [Muhammad] said: ‘No. Two goats will not butt together about her.’ This was the word that was first heard from the apostle of Allâh. The apostle of Allâh called him `Umayr, ‘basir’ (the seeing).” -- Ibn Sa`d's in Kitab al-Tabaqat al-Kabir, translated by S. Moinul Haq, Vol. 2, p. 24.

"She used to revile Islam"..Rightly so. So the muslims murdered her.

THIS IS HOW WAS SPREAD, THROUGH TERROR!

Now there was a great commotion among Banu Khatma that day about the affair of
bint [daughter of] Marwan. She had five sons, and when `Umayr went to them from
the apostle he said, ‘I have killed bint Marwan, O sons of Khatma. Withstand me if
you can; don't keep me waiting.’ That was the first day Islam became powerful
among B. Khatma; before that those who were Muslims concealed the fact. The
first of them to accept Islam was `Umayr b. `Adiy who was called the ‘Reader’ and
`Abdullah b. Aus and Khuzayma b. Thabit. The day after Bint Marwan was killed
the men of B. Khatma became Muslims because they saw the power of Islam. The Life of Muhammad , which is A. Guilaume’s translation


Narrated Abu Huraira: Allah's Apostle said, "I have been sent with the shortest expressions bearing the widest meanings, and I have been made VICTORIOUS WITH TERROR. Bukhari (Book #52, Hadith #220) http://www.searchtruth.com/searchHadith.php?keyword=+terror&translator=1&search=1&book=&start=0&records_display=10&search_word=exact

Muhammad is the most "beautiful pattern of conduct" and "example" for mankind to follow! (Qur'an 33:21), as well as the "exalted standard of character" (Qur'an 68:4).

itruth
17-03-2012, 12:50 PM
Muslim bus drivers refuse to let guide dogs on board

By Andy Dolan
UPDATED: 03:14, 19 July 2010

Blind passengers are being ordered off buses or refused taxi rides because Muslim drivers or passengers object to their 'unclean' guide dogs.

One pensioner, a cancer sufferer, told how had twice been confronted by drivers and asked to get off the bus because of his guide dog, and had also faced hostility at a hospital and in a supermarket over the animal.

The problem to carry guide dogs on religious grounds has become so widespread that the matter was raised in the House of Lords last week, prompting transport minister Norman Baker to warn that a religious objection was not a reason to eject a passenger with a well-behaved guide dog.

George Herridge and his guide dog
http://1.2.3.9/bmi/i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/07/18/article-0-0A7D16E1000005DC-624_468x630.jpg

'Stunned': George Herridge, 73, was twice asked by bus drivers to leave their vehicles because of his guide dog, a black labrador

While drivers can use their discretion to refuse to carry non-disabled passengers with dogs, they are compelled to accept guide dogs under disability discrimination law.

Yesterday both the Guide Dogs for the Blind Association and the National Federation of the Blind confirmed the problem was common, and, according to the latter organisation was 'getting worse'.

The tension stems from a strand of Islamic teaching which warns against contact with dogs because the animal's saliva was considered to be impure, the Muslim Council of Britain said.

It urged Muslims to show tolerance and common sense over the issue.

'We need to be flexible on this,' a spokesman said. 'Muslim drivers should have no hesitation in allowing guide dogs into their bus or car.

'If a dog does lick you, it's not the end of the world. Just go home and wash yourself.'

George Herridge, 73, a retired hospital maintenance manager, told the Daily Mail he was 'stunned' to be twice asked by bus drivers to leave their vehicles because of his guide dog Andy, a black Labrador.

Mr Herridge, who lives with wife Janet, 69, in Tilehurst, Reading, said that on the first occasion two years ago, he got off at the request of a Muslim driver because some Muslim children on board were 'screaming' because of the dog.

He found himself in a similar scenario in May last year, when a Muslim woman and her children became 'hysterical'. Mr Herridge this time refused the driver's request to alight.

He complained to the bus company which launched an investigation. It later informed him the matter had been dealt with 'internally'.

Jill Allen-King, spokesman for the NFB, said she had been repeatedly left on the kerb by Muslim taxi drivers who refused to take her dog.

One cab driver told her he would have to 'go home now and wash myself' when she tried to enter his car with her dog.

Mr Baker yesterday warned bus and cab companies that, while there were within their rights to ask a passenger to leave if the dog was causing a nuisance, it was 'much more questionable to be asked to remove a dog for religious reasons'.

He added: 'One person's freedom is someone else's restriction.'

In 2006, Muslim minicab driver Abdul Rasheed Majekodumni was fined £200 and ordered to pay £1,200 costs by magistrates in Marylebone, central London, after being prosecuted for failing to comply with the Disability Discrimination Act when he refused to take a blind passenger because her guide dog was 'unclean'.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1295749/Muslim-bus-drivers-refuse-let-guide-dogs-board.html#ixzz1pPB1lsUs

ciko
17-03-2012, 11:14 PM
Clearly again, it shows the Quran is wrong in the light of modern day scientific knowledge, thus islamic apologetics have to lie on its behalf.

The embryology in the Quran is WRONG. And it was copied from Aristotle and Galen who were theorising on embryology a thousand years prior to Muhammad being born, it is primitive science.

GALEN'S STAGES OF PRENATAL DEVELOPMENT
Stage 1. The two semens
Stage 1b. plus menstrual blood
Stage 2. unshaped flesh
Stage 3. bones
Stage 3b. flesh grows on and around the bones

QURANIC STAGES OF PRENATAL DEVELOPMENT
Stage 1. nutfa -- sperm
Stage 2. alaqa -- clot
Stage 3. mudagha -- piece or lump of flesh
Stage 4. adaam -- bones
Stage 5. dressing the bones with muscles



Just an amazing memory it seems, as he heavily repeated what other people had been saying long before him.

If there is a cosmic scheme of justice he's probably been reincarnated as a parrot.

The embryology in the Quran is WRONG.

tell it to this western scientist who studied quranic verses about embriology

The Divine Book 6/10 (Human Embryology) - YouTube

as everybody can see, i provide EVIDENCE TO PEOPLE, what can you provide to us???????+

this is you
"i say this, i say that, quran is wrong, bla bla bla," just rubbish talk without evidence....

vooei
17-03-2012, 11:27 PM
tell it to this western scientist who studied quranic verses about embriology

The Divine Book 6/10 (Human Embryology) - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=47N37nC01WI&feature=related)

as everybody can see, i provide EVIDENCE TO PEOPLE, what can you provide to us???????+

this is you
"i say this, i say that, quran is wrong, bla bla bla," just rubbish talk without evidence....

Ciko I don't need to tell it to western scientists because they know what embryology is and the know the Quran is wrong.

The only reason why idiots ( sorry but it's true ) believe differently is because the Saudis ( you know the ones you say aren't real Muslims ) paid Keith Moore to fly over to Arabia and purposely mislead the Islamic world by writing utter lies.

But since you keep using YouTube videos, here's one debunking the claim that the Quran contains advanced scientific knowledge pertaining to Embryology, as posited by Hamza Andreas Tzortzis and Adnan Rashid to their faces by PZ Myers who is a embryologist .

YouTube - Hamza Andreas Tzortzis & Co. (& Embryology in the Quran) DEBUNKED part 1 *mirror*

YouTube - Hamza Andreas Tzortzis & Co. (& Embryology in the Quran) DEBUNKED part 2 *mirror*

ciko
18-03-2012, 12:08 AM
amazing documentary ;)

The Divine Book (pt.1/10) - YouTube

The Divine Book 2/10 (Jesus pbuh in the Quran) - YouTube

The Divine Book 3/10 (Mohammed pbuh in the Bible) - YouTube

The Divine Book 4/10 (The Original Bible) - YouTube

The Divine Book 5/10 (Islam, Christianity & the West) - YouTube

The Divine Book 6/10 (Human Embryology) - YouTube

The Divine Book 7/10 (How Come Nobody Told me this Man) - YouTube

The Divine Book 8/10 (Standing the Test of Time) - YouTube

The Divine Book 9/10 (Proof that all Prophets were Muslim) - YouTube

The Divine Book 10/10 (The Absolute Creator) - YouTube

ciko
18-03-2012, 12:20 AM
Ciko I don't need to tell it to western scientists because they know what embryology is and the know the Quran is wrong.

The only reason why idiots ( sorry but it's true ) believe differently is because the Saudis ( you know the ones you say aren't real Muslims ) paid Keith Moore to fly over to Arabia and purposely mislead the Islamic world by writing utter lies.

But since you keep using YouTube videos, here's one debunking the claim that the Quran contains advanced scientific knowledge pertaining to Embryology, as posited by Hamza Andreas Tzortzis and Adnan Rashid to their faces by PZ Myers who is a embryologist .

YouTube - Hamza Andreas Tzortzis & Co. (& Embryology in the Quran) DEBUNKED part 1 *mirror* (http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=snin0fN-cwY)

YouTube - Hamza Andreas Tzortzis & Co. (& Embryology in the Quran) DEBUNKED part 2 *mirror* (http://m.youtube.com/watch?v=EjnvwJsxVWw)


who the hell is that person in that video commenting professor Keith L. Moore statment about embriology in quran

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Science/MOORE1.JPG

Keith L. Moore

Keith L. Moore (born 5 October, 1925 in Brantford, Ontario) is a professor emeritus in the division of anatomy, in the Faculty of Surgery, at the University of Toronto, Ontario, Canada. Moore is associate dean for Basic Medical Sciences in the university's Faculty of Medicine, and was Chair of Anatomy from 1976 to 1984. He is a founding member of the American Association of Clinical Anatomists (AACA)[1][2][3], and was President of the AACA between 1989 and 1991.[4]

Moore has co-written (with Professor Arthur F. Dalley and Professor Anne M. R. Agur) Clinically Oriented Anatomy, an English-language anatomy textbook.[5] He also co-wrote (with Professor Anne M. R. Agur and Professor Arthur F. Dalley) Essential Clinical Anatomy.[6]

tsafirkamel
18-03-2012, 05:58 AM
Blessings to Brother Ciko for Brother Ciko is fully OWNING everyone in this thread. THE TRUTH CANNOT BE DENIED: ONLY TWISTED BY YOU ACCURSED ASH SHAYTEN, "itruth" IS ACTING AS ASH-SHAYTAN!

hobo
18-03-2012, 06:25 AM
Teaching muslim children how to lie: (truely disgusting)
Islamic Education-Islamic Cleric Mahmoud El Masri teaches children according to the Prophet Sunnah Islamic Education-Islamic Cleric Mahmoud El Masri teaches children according to the Prophet Sunnah - YouTube (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xe_URa1WQNs)

Hell is not something that awaits us in the afterlife; these people have succeeded in making it a reality right here on earth. What a crime to indoctrinate those children that lies will keep a family stable. As if human beings cannot feel if they´re truly loved or not. And this smug troll is obviously grinning sure of the reward that awaits him in heaven for this :(

picha
18-03-2012, 09:40 AM
Muslim bus drivers refuse to let guide dogs on board

By Andy Dolan
UPDATED: 03:14, 19 July 2010

Blind passengers are being ordered off buses or refused taxi rides because Muslim drivers or passengers object to their 'unclean' guide dogs.

One pensioner, a cancer sufferer, told how had twice been confronted by drivers and asked to get off the bus because of his guide dog, and had also faced hostility at a hospital and in a supermarket over the animal.

The problem to carry guide dogs on religious grounds has become so widespread that the matter was raised in the House of Lords last week, prompting transport minister Norman Baker to warn that a religious objection was not a reason to eject a passenger with a well-behaved guide dog.

George Herridge and his guide dog
http://1.2.3.9/bmi/i.dailymail.co.uk/i/pix/2010/07/18/article-0-0A7D16E1000005DC-624_468x630.jpg

'Stunned': George Herridge, 73, was twice asked by bus drivers to leave their vehicles because of his guide dog, a black labrador

While drivers can use their discretion to refuse to carry non-disabled passengers with dogs, they are compelled to accept guide dogs under disability discrimination law.

Yesterday both the Guide Dogs for the Blind Association and the National Federation of the Blind confirmed the problem was common, and, according to the latter organisation was 'getting worse'.

The tension stems from a strand of Islamic teaching which warns against contact with dogs because the animal's saliva was considered to be impure, the Muslim Council of Britain said.

It urged Muslims to show tolerance and common sense over the issue.

'We need to be flexible on this,' a spokesman said. 'Muslim drivers should have no hesitation in allowing guide dogs into their bus or car.

'If a dog does lick you, it's not the end of the world. Just go home and wash yourself.'

George Herridge, 73, a retired hospital maintenance manager, told the Daily Mail he was 'stunned' to be twice asked by bus drivers to leave their vehicles because of his guide dog Andy, a black Labrador.

Mr Herridge, who lives with wife Janet, 69, in Tilehurst, Reading, said that on the first occasion two years ago, he got off at the request of a Muslim driver because some Muslim children on board were 'screaming' because of the dog.

He found himself in a similar scenario in May last year, when a Muslim woman and her children became 'hysterical'. Mr Herridge this time refused the driver's request to alight.

He complained to the bus company which launched an investigation. It later informed him the matter had been dealt with 'internally'.

Jill Allen-King, spokesman for the NFB, said she had been repeatedly left on the kerb by Muslim taxi drivers who refused to take her dog.

One cab driver told her he would have to 'go home now and wash myself' when she tried to enter his car with her dog.

Mr Baker yesterday warned bus and cab companies that, while there were within their rights to ask a passenger to leave if the dog was causing a nuisance, it was 'much more questionable to be asked to remove a dog for religious reasons'.

He added: 'One person's freedom is someone else's restriction.'

In 2006, Muslim minicab driver Abdul Rasheed Majekodumni was fined £200 and ordered to pay £1,200 costs by magistrates in Marylebone, central London, after being prosecuted for failing to comply with the Disability Discrimination Act when he refused to take a blind passenger because her guide dog was 'unclean'.

Read more: http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-1295749/Muslim-bus-drivers-refuse-let-guide-dogs-board.html#ixzz1pPB1lsUs


But if it wasnt a guide dog and they tell you to leave the bus, then that would be ok?
I have never heard of someone being kicked off a bus because of a dog that not even being aggressive.

ciko
18-03-2012, 10:07 AM
Hell is not something that awaits us in the afterlife; these people have succeeded in making it a reality right here on earth. What a crime to indoctrinate those children that lies will keep a family stable. As if human beings cannot feel if they´re truly loved or not. And this smug troll is obviously grinning sure of the reward that awaits him in heaven for this :(

God answers in quran:

34:34 Never have We sent a warner to a community without those among them who were corrupted by wealth saying, ‘We do not believe in the message you have been sent with.’

35. They would say, ‘We have greater wealth and more children than you, and we shall not be punished.’

36. Say [to them Prophet], ‘My Lord gives in abundance to whoever He will and sparingly to whoever He will, though most people do not understand.

37. Neither wealth nor children will bring you nearer to Us, but those who believe and do good deeds will have multiple rewards for what they have done, and will live safely in the lofty dwellings of Paradise,

38. And those who strive in opposing Our verses,they will be put in punishment.


Hell is not something that awaits us in the afterlife

compare this wirh quranic verses

We do not believe in the message you have been sent with

and

and we shall not be punished

selig
18-03-2012, 10:44 AM
Blessings to Brother Ciko for Brother Ciko is fully OWNING everyone in this thread.

The funny thing is he probably thinks he is.:D

Anyway, you didn't answer my question ciko.

Given that Hitler and Muhammed both utilised slave labour and had Jews murdered why is Muhammed in paradise but not Hitler?

ciko
18-03-2012, 11:04 AM
The funny thing is he probably thinks he is.:D

Anyway, you didn't answer my question ciko.

Given that Hitler and Muhammed both utilised slave labour and had Jews murdered why is Muhammed in paradise but not Hitler?

but why are yo people not opening your eyes , are you so blind people???

what did hitler do to jews(slaves)

http://www.holocaustpictures.org/images/holocaust-picture.jpg

http://www.holocaustpictures.org/images/holocaust-pictures.jpg


what did muhammed do to jews or slaves?

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: "When the slave of anyone amongst you prepares food for him and he serves him after having sat close to (and undergoing the hardship of) heat and smoke, he should make him (the slave) sit along with him and make him eat (along with him), and if the food seems to run short, then he should spare some portion for him (from his own share) - (another narrator) Dawud said:" i. e. a morsel or two". 4097. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Oaths (Kitab Al-Aiman), Book 015, Number 4096)"

Narrated Al-Ma'rur: "At Ar-Rabadha I met Abu Dhar who was wearing a cloak, and his slave, too, was wearing a similar one. I asked about the reason for it. He replied, "I abused a person by calling his mother with bad names." The Prophet said to me, 'O Abu Dhar! Did you abuse him by calling his mother with bad names You still have some characteristics of ignorance. Your slaves are your brothers and Allah has put them under your command. So whoever has a brother under his command should feed him of what he eats and dress him of what he wears. Do not ask them (slaves) to do things beyond their capacity (power) and if you do so, then help them.' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Belief, Volume 1, Book 2, Number 29)"


how the hell can you compare this with hitler WHAT HE DID TO JEWISH SLAVES, HOOOOOOOOOOOW? :rolleyes:

HOW MUHAMMED WAS WITH JEWS?

The Treaty between Muslims, non-Muslim Arabs and Jews of Medina was put in writing and ratified by all parties. It has been preserved by the historians. The document referred Muhammad (pbuh) as the Prophet and Messenger of God but it was understood that the Jews did not have to recognize him as such for their own religious reasons. The major parts of the document were:


“In the name of Allah (The One True God) the Compassionate, the Merciful. This is a document from Muhammad, the Prophet, governing the relation between the Believers from among the Qurayshites (i.e., Emigrants from Mecca) and Yathribites (i.e., the residents of Medina) and those who followed them and joined them and strived with them. They form one and the same community as against the rest of men.
“No Believer shall oppose the client of another Believer. Whosoever is rebellious, or seeks to spread injustice, enmity or sedition among the Believers, the hand of every man shall be against him, even if he be a son of one of them. A Believer shall not kill a Believer in retaliation of an unbeliever, nor shall he help an unbeliever against a Believer.

“Whosoever among the Jews follows us shall have help and equality; they shall not be injured nor shall any enemy be aided against them.... No separate peace will be made when the Believers are fighting in the way of Allah.... The Believers shall avenge the blood of one another shed in the way of Allah ....Whosoever kills a Believer wrongfully shall be liable to retaliation; all the Believers shall be against him as one man and they are bound to take action against him.

“The Jews shall contribute (to the cost of war) with the Believers so long as they are at war with a common enemy. The Jews of Banu Najjar, Banu al-Harith, Banu Sa'idah, Banu Jusham, Banu al-Aws, Banu Tha'labah, Jafnah, and Banu al-Shutaybah enjoy the same rights and priviledges as the Jews of Banu Aws.

“The Jews shall maintain their own religion and the Muslims theirs. Loyalty is a protection against treachery. The close friends of Jews are as themselves. None of them shall go out on a military expedition except with the permission of Muhammad, but he shall not be prevented from taking revenge for a wound.

“The Jews shall be responsible for their expenses and the Believers for theirs. Each, if attacked, shall come to the assistance of the other.

“The valley of Yathrib (Medina) shall be sacred and inviolable for all that join this Treaty. Strangers, under protection, shall be treated on the same ground as their protectors; but no stranger shall be taken under protection except with consent of his tribe....No woman shall be taken under protection without the consent of her family.

Whatever difference or dispute between the parties to this covenant remains unsolved shall be referred to Allah and to Muhammad, the Messenger of Allah. Allah is the Guarantor of the piety and goodness that is embodied in this covenant. Neither the Quraysh nor their allies shall be given any protection.

“The contracting parties are bound to help one another against any attack on Yathrib. If they are called to cease hostilities and to enter into peace, they shall be bound to do so in the interest of peace; and if they make a similar demand on Muslims it must be carried out except when the war is agianst their religion.

“Allah approves the truth and goodwill of this covenant. This treaty shall not protect the unjust or the criminal. Whoever goes out to fight as well as whoever stays at home shall be safe and secure in this city unless he has perpetrated an injustice or commited a crime.... Allah is the protector of the good and God-fearing people.”



The Prophet of Islam and the Jews, by Faysal S. Burhan (Michael D. Berdine, ed.)

Historians (see Sahih Bukhari, Tradition Number 1311) report that as a funeral of a Jew passed before Prophet Muhammad [peace and blessings be upon him], as a sign of respect he stood up. In doing this, he showed respect and shared in the feeling of sorrow with Jewish family and community. "Why did you stand up for a Jewish funeral?" he was asked. The Prophet replied: "Is it not a human soul?"
---

Upon learning of the sickness of his Jewish neighbor, Prophet Muhammad [peace and blessings be upon him] paid him a visit. During the visit the Prophet [peace and blessings be upon him] asked the young man to accept Islam. The young man looked at his father for a permission. The father assented and the young man accepted Islam. (See Sahih Bukhari, Tradition Number 1356).
---

Getting closer to others, and making your enemy your friend is the way of Prophet Muhammad [peace and blessings be upon him]. To accomplish this, Prophet Muhammad [peace and blessings be upon him] utilized the traditional Arabian way of making alliance through marriage. Any time a person marries from a clan outside of his own, he becomes honored by every member of the clan, and protected by the entire tribe of the bride. To show his nearness and trustworthiness to the Jews, he married one of their own. Her name was Sufiah Bint Alnudair, the daughter of the leader of the Nudair tribe.
---

For several days, at the outskirts of Medina, awaiting eagerly the arrival of Prophet Muhammad [peace and blessings be upon him] and his companion from Makkah, was a small group of Muslims. Also near by was a Jew, Abdullah Bin Salaam, picking dates off a palm tree with his aunt on the ground assisting him. Abdullah was in a better position to spot the incoming from a far distance. Therefore, he was the first to see the Prophet [peace and blessings be upon him] and his companion coming. Upon this, he became overwhelmed with excitement, calling loudly, "Muhammad has arrived, God is great!" Upon this, his aunt told him to quiet down saying, "If he was Moses son of Imran, you would not have shouted as loud." Abdullah responded, "Oh my aunt by Allah, he is (only) the brother of Moses, son of Imran and is on his faith." She asked, "Is he the expected Prophet we have been told about (in the Torah)? He said, "Yes".



did Hitler visited sick jews like muhamed did, did Hitler honored dead jew like Muhammed did, did Hitler married jewish woman like Muhammed did? Did Hitler make threaty with jews like Muhammed did?

HOW THE HELL CAN YOU COMPARE THIS TWO PERSONS???????

picha
18-03-2012, 11:58 AM
but why are yo people not opening your eyes , are you so blind people???

what did hitler do to jews(slaves)

http://www.holocaustpictures.org/images/holocaust-picture.jpg

http://www.holocaustpictures.org/images/holocaust-pictures.jpg


what did muhammed do to jews or slaves?

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: "When the slave of anyone amongst you prepares food for him and he serves him after having sat close to (and undergoing the hardship of) heat and smoke, he should make him (the slave) sit along with him and make him eat (along with him), and if the food seems to run short, then he should spare some portion for him (from his own share) - (another narrator) Dawud said:" i. e. a morsel or two". 4097. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Oaths (Kitab Al-Aiman), Book 015, Number 4096)"

Narrated Al-Ma'rur: "At Ar-Rabadha I met Abu Dhar who was wearing a cloak, and his slave, too, was wearing a similar one. I asked about the reason for it. He replied, "I abused a person by calling his mother with bad names." The Prophet said to me, 'O Abu Dhar! Did you abuse him by calling his mother with bad names You still have some characteristics of ignorance. Your slaves are your brothers and Allah has put them under your command. So whoever has a brother under his command should feed him of what he eats and dress him of what he wears. Do not ask them (slaves) to do things beyond their capacity (power) and if you do so, then help them.' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Belief, Volume 1, Book 2, Number 29)"


how the hell can you compare this with hitler WHAT HE DID TO JEWISH SLAVES, HOOOOOOOOOOOW? :rolleyes:

HOW MUHAMMED WAS WITH JEWS?





The Prophet of Islam and the Jews, by Faysal S. Burhan (Michael D. Berdine, ed.)

Historians (see Sahih Bukhari, Tradition Number 1311) report that as a funeral of a Jew passed before Prophet Muhammad [peace and blessings be upon him], as a sign of respect he stood up. In doing this, he showed respect and shared in the feeling of sorrow with Jewish family and community. "Why did you stand up for a Jewish funeral?" he was asked. The Prophet replied: "Is it not a human soul?"
---

Upon learning of the sickness of his Jewish neighbor, Prophet Muhammad [peace and blessings be upon him] paid him a visit. During the visit the Prophet [peace and blessings be upon him] asked the young man to accept Islam. The young man looked at his father for a permission. The father assented and the young man accepted Islam. (See Sahih Bukhari, Tradition Number 1356).
---

Getting closer to others, and making your enemy your friend is the way of Prophet Muhammad [peace and blessings be upon him]. To accomplish this, Prophet Muhammad [peace and blessings be upon him] utilized the traditional Arabian way of making alliance through marriage. Any time a person marries from a clan outside of his own, he becomes honored by every member of the clan, and protected by the entire tribe of the bride. To show his nearness and trustworthiness to the Jews, he married one of their own. Her name was Sufiah Bint Alnudair, the daughter of the leader of the Nudair tribe.
---

For several days, at the outskirts of Medina, awaiting eagerly the arrival of Prophet Muhammad [peace and blessings be upon him] and his companion from Makkah, was a small group of Muslims. Also near by was a Jew, Abdullah Bin Salaam, picking dates off a palm tree with his aunt on the ground assisting him. Abdullah was in a better position to spot the incoming from a far distance. Therefore, he was the first to see the Prophet [peace and blessings be upon him] and his companion coming. Upon this, he became overwhelmed with excitement, calling loudly, "Muhammad has arrived, God is great!" Upon this, his aunt told him to quiet down saying, "If he was Moses son of Imran, you would not have shouted as loud." Abdullah responded, "Oh my aunt by Allah, he is (only) the brother of Moses, son of Imran and is on his faith." She asked, "Is he the expected Prophet we have been told about (in the Torah)? He said, "Yes".



did Hitler visited sick jews like muhamed did, did Hitler honored dead jew like Muhammed did, did Hitler married jewish woman like Muhammed did? Did Hitler make threaty with jews like Muhammed did?

HOW THE HELL CAN YOU COMPARE THIS TWO PERSONS???????

He killed hundreds of jews.

selig
18-03-2012, 12:14 PM
but why are yo people not opening your eyes , are you so blind people???

what did hitler do to jews(slaves)

http://www.holocaustpictures.org/images/holocaust-picture.jpg

http://www.holocaustpictures.org/images/holocaust-pictures.jpg


what did muhammed do to jews or slaves?

Abu Huraira reported Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) as saying: "When the slave of anyone amongst you prepares food for him and he serves him after having sat close to (and undergoing the hardship of) heat and smoke, he should make him (the slave) sit along with him and make him eat (along with him), and if the food seems to run short, then he should spare some portion for him (from his own share) - (another narrator) Dawud said:" i. e. a morsel or two". 4097. (Translation of Sahih Muslim, The Book of Oaths (Kitab Al-Aiman), Book 015, Number 4096)"

Narrated Al-Ma'rur: "At Ar-Rabadha I met Abu Dhar who was wearing a cloak, and his slave, too, was wearing a similar one. I asked about the reason for it. He replied, "I abused a person by calling his mother with bad names." The Prophet said to me, 'O Abu Dhar! Did you abuse him by calling his mother with bad names You still have some characteristics of ignorance. Your slaves are your brothers and Allah has put them under your command. So whoever has a brother under his command should feed him of what he eats and dress him of what he wears. Do not ask them (slaves) to do things beyond their capacity (power) and if you do so, then help them.' (Translation of Sahih Bukhari, Belief, Volume 1, Book 2, Number 29)"


how the hell can you compare this with hitler WHAT HE DID TO JEWISH SLAVES, HOOOOOOOOOOOW? :rolleyes:

I must say that I found it absolutely hilarious that you chose to ignore the fact that Muhammed had the Qurayza Jews in Medina wiped off the map by beheading all the men and boys and enslaving all the females.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Banu+Qurayza+Jews&ie=utf-8&oe=utf-8&aq=t&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&client=firefox-a#hl=en&newwindow=1&safe=off&client=firefox-a&hs=4Ea&rls=org.mozilla:en-GB:official&sa=X&ei=RsllT-r8F-jK0QWtvPWeCA&ved=0CBoQvwUoAQ&q=Qurayza+Jews+Muhammad&spell=1&bav=on.2,or.r_gc.r_pw.r_cp.r_qf.,cf.osb&fp=9d572238b97b161c&biw=1280&bih=857

And, as per usual, you redefined the word slave to mean Jew and reposted the same old, copy, pasted and debunked quotes about how Muhammed once said to feed your slaves what you eat: which actually makes sense if you're a slave owner/trader because a hungry slave is more likely to rebel and slit your throat while you're sleeping and, if you want to sell them at a later date, you'll get more money for a fit and healthy slave than an abused one.

It's also funny how you always ignore any quotes about Muhammed laughing when slaves were beaten etc. because they prove he was a hypocrite. I would repost them but there really is no point.


HOW MUHAMMED WAS WITH JEWS?





The Prophet of Islam and the Jews, by Faysal S. Burhan (Michael D. Berdine, ed.)

Historians (see Sahih Bukhari, Tradition Number 1311) report that as a funeral of a Jew passed before Prophet Muhammad [peace and blessings be upon him], as a sign of respect he stood up. In doing this, he showed respect and shared in the feeling of sorrow with Jewish family and community. "Why did you stand up for a Jewish funeral?" he was asked. The Prophet replied: "Is it not a human soul?"
---

Upon learning of the sickness of his Jewish neighbor, Prophet Muhammad [peace and blessings be upon him] paid him a visit. During the visit the Prophet [peace and blessings be upon him] asked the young man to accept Islam. The young man looked at his father for a permission. The father assented and the young man accepted Islam. (See Sahih Bukhari, Tradition Number 1356).
---

Getting closer to others, and making your enemy your friend is the way of Prophet Muhammad [peace and blessings be upon him]. To accomplish this, Prophet Muhammad [peace and blessings be upon him] utilized the traditional Arabian way of making alliance through marriage. Any time a person marries from a clan outside of his own, he becomes honored by every member of the clan, and protected by the entire tribe of the bride. To show his nearness and trustworthiness to the Jews, he married one of their own. Her name was Sufiah Bint Alnudair, the daughter of the leader of the Nudair tribe.
---

For several days, at the outskirts of Medina, awaiting eagerly the arrival of Prophet Muhammad [peace and blessings be upon him] and his companion from Makkah, was a small group of Muslims. Also near by was a Jew, Abdullah Bin Salaam, picking dates off a palm tree with his aunt on the ground assisting him. Abdullah was in a better position to spot the incoming from a far distance. Therefore, he was the first to see the Prophet [peace and blessings be upon him] and his companion coming. Upon this, he became overwhelmed with excitement, calling loudly, "Muhammad has arrived, God is great!" Upon this, his aunt told him to quiet down saying, "If he was Moses son of Imran, you would not have shouted as loud." Abdullah responded, "Oh my aunt by Allah, he is (only) the brother of Moses, son of Imran and is on his faith." She asked, "Is he the expected Prophet we have been told about (in the Torah)? He said, "Yes".


Yet more copy and paste answers that completely ignore the fact that, just like Hitler, Muhammed had Jews murdered and enslaved.


did Hitler visited sick jews like muhamed did, did Hitler honored dead jew like Muhammed did, did Hitler married jewish woman like Muhammed did? Did Hitler make threaty with jews like Muhammed did?

HOW THE HELL CAN YOU COMPARE THIS TWO PERSONS???????

Was this Jewish woman the same woman that he took as a sex slave after he had the rest of her tribe killed or enslaved? The same woman he traded two of her cousins and seven head of cattle to another Muslim for?

Safiyya bint Huyayy - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

How humanitarian of him.:rolleyes:

HOW THE HELL CAN YOU COMPARE THIS TWO PERSONS???????

It's quite simple. They both had people killed, they both utilised slave labour and they were both bigots: for example Hitler said no Jews in Europe and Muhammed said no non-Muslims in Mecca.

Now, if you would try to answer my question: why do you think Muhammed deserves paradise and not Hitler? Why is one allowed to kill and enslave Jews but not the other?

tsafirkamel
18-03-2012, 12:15 PM
https://fbcdn-sphotos-a.akamaihd.net/hphotos-ak-ash4/426142_3131508640985_1062810196_32563632_198309243 8_n.jpg

pert
18-03-2012, 12:28 PM
HOW THE HELL CAN YOU COMPARE THIS TWO PERSONS???????[/SIZE][/COLOR]

THE CHARACTER OF TYRANTS.
Similarities between Hitler, Muhammad and Stalin

By Ahmed Simon

Did you know the similarities between Hitler, Muhammad and Stalin?

But first, before we go into the similarities, let me take you through life, to show you where things, in all probabilities, could have gone wrong in human behavior.

Human beings are the only ‘species’, which are not born with life instincts and are nurtured into what they become in adulthood. A calf, soon after birth, in just a matter of minutes, starts running around its mother and instinctly knows where to suckle for its milk, and is equipped to flee in the face of danger. A human toddler is not equipped with such capabilities and knows only to wail and scream leaving the adults to guess what is wrong or sought after. A cub, when its adults disappear hunting, will instinctly know when to run and hide, in the face of approaching danger. A human child is totally dependant, on the mercy of other humans, at this stage in its life. A human is almost entirely influenced/dependant on his environment, almost entirely on the parents. So, physical and emotional growth of all newborn humans, also largely depend on the parents. Children use their parents as roll-models. The Bible aptly emphasizes all this, in its various books.

We know, much of how human adults behave, as the result of our guidance and discipline in our nurturing years by our parents. Parents also largely influence the emotional development of a child with love and care. If the first ten years of a child’s life is nurtured well and is healthy, the chances are excellent for a successful adolescent life as a teenager.

But in these first two decades of life, until around 18 years of life, many emotional aspects can change the situation drastically and send the child into an unexpected tailspin into a conflicting direction. A sudden demise of a parent is an example. The loss of a parent is traumatic to any child/teenager. To a child/teenager this is never comprehensible and fully understood. At times, professional help is sought to reduce the trauma and help in the continued emotional development. The missed nurturing could never be replaced in its entirety at a later stage in life. As the phrase, “Time and tide will wait for no man” has a deep and enduring meaning here.

All said and done, research records/facts also show that a wayward person can generally, be traced back to his parents. Research also shows that most confirmed criminals come from broken homes. Thus, we can assume that nurturing in our first two decades is paramount to an adult’s later life. Nurturing sets the direction, for the rest of our lives. But, admitted, there are always exceptions to the rule, as other forces can play a part to offset this balancing rule.

Now for the character in the lives of Hitler, Muhammad and Stalin: -

All their fathers died when they were young (Muhammad’s father died before his birth – poor fellow. He never got to see his father).
All their mothers died early. (Muhammad’s mother died the earliest, when he was only 4 years old. Here again Muhammad seems to have lost the most among the three. Later, his grandfather who adopted him died and then again his uncle who adopted him also died, adding even more misery to little Muhammad. Recap - Father, then mother, then grandfather, then uncle – one could not have been so unfortunate or cursed. Perhaps, it is because he had no chance of receiving love that he could not give true love and compassion).
All three had a very miserable childhood.
All three had a very miserable youth. (Stalin and Hitler had abusive fathers who also abused their mothers. I have no record of Muhammad’s father’s behavior towards his mother, but it is highly likely that he was abusive with her too, given the Arabic tradition of beating the crap out of their wives and Sura 4:34 not just to beat their wives, but to scourge – whip them as camels/animals.)
All three came from not well-to-do families. (Muhammad worked for his rich elderly first wife [who was previously widowed) and only after she died, did he inherit all her wealth and become rich and powerful – a calculated move?).
All three did not have a wholesome good education (Here again, Muhammad was the worst of the lot, because he was never even educated and could not read or write – a complete illiterate).
All three struggled in life through youth.
All three dabbled with religion some time in their lives
All three were rejected in religion during their lifetime.
All three were abusive to women.
All three were arrogant and never accepted the truth.
All three never admitted to their wrong/mistakes, even when clear evidence was staring at their faces.
All three thought of women as lacking in intelligence.
All three had ridiculous and absurd relationships with women.
All three were not compassionate with Children.
All three contemplated suicide, at least once.
All three used their barbaric and savage side in life, whenever it suited them.
All three were selfish, ruthless and illogical.
All three used many other men to carry out their evil deeds.
All three lied through their noses.
All three were very extraordinarily vicious-minded.
All three were very cunning and used force as a means to achieve what they wanted.
All three were untrustworthy. They broke the very peace agreements they signed. (It goes to show that you cannot believe ill-nurtured people, no matter what they say or do. Their word could be as elastic as they want it to be. In other words, they were all without principles.)
All three had no respect, for human lives or had humane values.
All three were very vengeful, even till the end of their lives.
All three were never remorseful even till the end.
All three have no history of great compassion.
All three were self-centred and egotistic.
All three commanded huge forces of men.
All three abused their powers and sent fear around them.
All three stole from others.
All three generally, had no human conscience.
All three had sexual affairs with women, who were not married to them (adulterers - here too, Muhammad comes out top among the three).
All three unashamedly enjoyed/benefited from the labour of others.
All three were always fearful and suspicious of those close to them and even towards their own supporters and associates.
All three of them borrowed from past history, to justify their actions.
All three rose up in life through cruel and inhumane ways.
All three had become tyrants when in power and had ‘others’ human blood in their hands’.
All three had those close to them, killed.
All three were racists in the very extreme.
All three hated Jews and had them killed in large numbers.
All three sent their countries into turmoil and war.
All three had many innocent men, women and children killed.
All three claimed that they were destined for greatness, but actually ended up being notorious for their misdeeds.
All three died miserable and painful deaths. (Here too Muhammad comes up ‘outstanding’ to have suffered his last excruciating painful existence for 2 ½ years. The other two were quick deaths, but not without mental torture in their last days of lives. Out of the three, only Stalin has a grave in his name.)
All three life histories turn one’s stomach with revulsion and are sickening to any civilised human being, to even imagine their inhuman lives.
All three died remembering women. (A. Muhammad was poisoned to death by a woman and died on the lap of his wife, Aisha. B. Hitler and Stalin died with photographs of their mothers in their wallets.) Imagine the irony of it all.
All three ended their lives unexpectedly. (Did God intervene to put an end to them, from committing further crimes against humanity?)
All three are of the worst example of a human being, who ever walked this earth.
All three are remembered forever, for their despicable, dastardly, inhuman, barbaric, savage and cruel misdeeds.

From these facts, one can see the similarities in the characters and behaviors, of the three, namely Hitler, Muhammad and Stalin. All three had almost non-existent parental nurturing. All three were ABSOLUTE EVIL. The similarities among them are a stark paradox to their claims.

History will forever keep warning the world of such barbaric and inhuman savages, who ever walked this earth. History will also remind this civilised world of the lessons learnt from the past, so that history will not repeat itself.

vooei
18-03-2012, 01:18 PM
who the hell is that person in that video commenting professor Keith L. Moore statment about embriology in quran

http://www.islamic-awareness.org/Quran/Science/MOORE1.JPG

Keith L. Moore

Keith L. Moore (born 5 October, 1925 in Brantford, Ontario) is a professor emeritus in the division of anatomy, in the Faculty of Surgery, at the University of Toronto, Ontario, Canada. Moore is associate dean for Basic Medical Sciences in the university's Faculty of Medicine, and was Chair of Anatomy from 1976 to 1984. He is a founding member of the American Association of Clinical Anatomists (AACA)[1][2][3], and was President of the AACA between 1989 and 1991.[4]

Moore has co-written (with Professor Arthur F. Dalley and Professor Anne M. R. Agur) Clinically Oriented Anatomy, an English-language anatomy textbook.[5] He also co-wrote (with Professor Anne M. R. Agur and Professor Arthur F. Dalley) Essential Clinical Anatomy.[6]

'that person' is PZ Myers

http://t3.gstatic.com/images?q=tbn:ANd9GcS2EaKGdTaiQYPJ2Bo2inf9fDfB0ysYv DSwYDWuNlKJMuls8cdMFg

Paul Zachary "PZ" Myers (born March 9, 1957) is an American biology professor at the University of Minnesota Morris (UMM) and the author of the Pharyngula science blog. He is currently an associate professor of biology at UMM, works with zebrafish in the field of evolutionary developmental biology (evo-devo), and also cultivates an interest in cephalopods. He has published numerous research papers in Nature and other notable scientific journals.

In 2006, the journal Nature listed his blog, Pharyngula, as the top-ranked blog written by a scientist.Additionally, PZ Myers was the recipient of the Humanist of the Year award in 2009, and the International Humanist Award in 2011.
Asteroid 153298 Paulmyers is named in his honor.

link: PZ Myers - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia


Sorry to break the news to you Ciko, but your Quran is not the word of a god, it's the words of men repeating what other men said many years before them which they thought were right . . . . and they were wrong.

Oops.

glitter
18-03-2012, 02:02 PM
How can islam be the only true religion...isn't that egotistical. What about the other religions that existed before islam?

and why do muslims say islam is a religion of peace and yet in their scriptures there is hatred allowed towards non-muslims. There is no sense in these contradictory meanings.

Whats the point in them saying things like not to permit alcohol and yet they are all for marrying several wives only to indulge in their sick lustful ways. Again there is no sense in what they say as all they want to do is satisfy their own egotistical ways.

They keep their bloodlines in tact by marryng their siblings/cousins to continue their brainwashed generations.

glitter
18-03-2012, 04:48 PM
Muslims believe that non-believers will go to hell regardless of having a pure heart. Unlike their own what becomes of your own muslims girls who commit sinful actions. What becomes of them, will they go to hell?

I'll give you an example of a few muslim girls i knew.....

One muslim girl took ectstasy tablets. drank alcohol and had an abortion.

the 2nd muslim girl was seeing another man behind her husbands back.

the 3rd muslim girl was just completely shameless and slept with all married men!

Not only were all these girls commiting these acts but they also LIED continuosly. Lying is something muslims resonate so well with after all it is permitted and written in their book.

So my question is even if there are believers of islam what becomes of muslims who commit these sinful acts? What does the twisted ideology say about these matters? or is there a loophole where they seem to slip through the net!

btw at work there are muslim guys who go after white european girls because they can't get their own muslim girls. They actually go after them like desperate dogs, always sniffing around to see what they can get! So what becomes of these muslim men who imitate dogs on heat?! Do they still go to paradise regardless of their bullshit because they have subcribed to this twisted religion?

ciko
18-03-2012, 06:44 PM
He killed hundreds of jews.


I must say that I found it absolutely hilarious that you chose to ignore the fact that Muhammed had the Qurayza Jews in Medina wiped off the map by beheading all the men and boys and enslaving all the females.

https://www.google.co.uk/search?q=Ba...w=1280&bih=857

And, as per usual, you redefined the word slave to mean Jew and reposted the same old, copy, pasted and debunked quotes about how Muhammed once said to feed your slaves what you eat: which actually makes sense if you're a slave owner/trader because a hungry slave is more likely to rebel and slit your throat while you're sleeping and, if you want to sell them at a later date, you'll get more money for a fit and healthy slave than an abused one.

It's also funny how you always ignore any quotes about Muhammed laughing when slaves were beaten etc. because they prove he was a hypocrite. I would repost them but there really is no point.



I must say that I found it absolutely hilarious that you chose to ignore the fact that Muhammed had the Qurayza Jews in Medina wiped off the map by beheading all the men and boys and enslaving all the females.

I must say that I found it absolutely hilarious that you DONT KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT IT, WHAT REALLY HAPPENED

READ HERE, BEFORE YOU ATTACK MUHAMMED

COPIED FROM
http://www.pbs.org//muhammad/ma_jews.shtml

Judaism was already well established in Medina two centuries before Muhammad's birth. Although influential, the Jews did not rule the oasis. Rather, they were clients of two large Arab tribes there, the Khazraj and the Aws Allah, who protected them in return for feudal loyalty. Medina's Jews were expert jewelers, and weapons and armor makers. There were many Jewish clans-some records indicate more than twenty, of which three were prominent-the Banu Nadir, the Banu Qaynuqa, and the Banu Qurayza.

Various traditions uphold different views, and it is unclear whether Medina's Jewish clans were Arabized Jews or Arabs who practiced Jewish monotheism. Certainly they were Arabic speakers with Arab names. They followed the fundamental precepts of the Torah, though scholars question their familiarity with the Talmud and Jewish scholarship, and there is a suggestion in the Qur'an that they may have embraced unorthodox beliefs, such as considering the Prophet Ezra the son of God.

There were rabbis among the Jews of Medina, who appear in Muslim sources soon after Muhammad proclaimed himself a prophet. At that time the quizzical Meccans, knowing little about monotheism, are said to have consulted the Medinan rabbis, in an attempt to put Muhammad to the test. The rabbis posed three theological questions for the Meccans to ask Muhammad, asserting that they would know, by his answers, whether or not he spoke the truth. According to later reports, Muhammad replied to the rabbis' satisfaction, but the Meccans remained unconvinced.

Muhammad arrived in Medina in 622 believing the Jewish tribes would welcome him. Contrary to expectation, his relations with several of the Jewish tribes in Medina were uneasy almost from the start. This was probably largely a matter of local politics. Medina was not so much a city as a fractious agricultural settlement dotted by fortresses and strongholds, and all relations in the oasis were uneasy. In fact, Muhammad had been invited there to arbitrate a bloody civil war between the Khazraj and the Aws Allah, in which the Jewish clans, being their clients, were embroiled.

At Muhammad's insistence, Medina's pagan, Muslim and Jewish clans signed a pact to protect each other, but achieving this new social order was difficult. Certain individual pagans and recent Medinan converts to Islam tried to thwart the new arrangement in various ways, and some of the Jewish clans were uneasy with the threatened demise of the old alliances. At least three times in five years, Jewish leaders, uncomfortable with the changing political situation in Medina, went against Muhammad, hoping to restore the tense, sometimes bloody-but predictable-balance of power among the tribes.

According to most sources, individuals from among these clans plotted to take his life at least twice, and once they came within a bite of poisoning him. Two of the tribes--the Banu Nadir and the Banu Qaynuqa--were eventually exiled for falling short on their agreed upon commitments and for the consequent danger they posed to the nascent Muslim community.

The danger was great. During this period, the Meccans were actively trying to dislodge Muhammad militarily, twice marching large armies to Medina. Muhammad was nearly killed in the first engagement, on the plains of Uhud just outside of Medina. In their second and final military push against Medina, now known as the Battle of the Trench, the Meccans recruited allies from northwestern Arabia to join the fight, including the assistance of the two exiled Jewish tribes. In addition, they sent envoys to the largest Jewish tribe still in Medina, the Banu Qurayza, hoping to win their support. The Banu Qurayza's crucial location on the south side of Medina would allow the Meccans to attack Muhammad from two sides.

The Banu Qurayza were hesitant to join the Meccan alliance, but when a substantial Meccan army arrived, they agreed.

As a siege began, the Banu Qurayza nervously awaited further developments. Learning of their intention to defect and realizing the grave danger this posed, Muhammad initiated diplomatic efforts to keep the Banu Qurayza on his side. Little progress was made. In the third week of the siege, the Banu Qurayza signaled their readiness to act against Muhammad, although they demanded that the Meccans provide them with hostages first, to ensure that they wouldn't be abandoned to face Muhammad alone. Yet that is exactly what happened. The Meccans, nearing exhaustion themselves, refused to give the Banu Qurayza any hostages. Not long after, cold, heavy rains set in, and the Meccans gave up the fight and marched home, to the horror and dismay of the Banu Qurayza.

The Muslims now commenced a 25-day siege against the Banu Qurazya's fortress. Finally, both sides agreed to arbitration. A former ally of the Banu Qurayza, an Arab chief named Sa'd ibn Muadh, now a Muslim, was chosen as judge. Sa'd, one of the few casualties of battle, would soon die of his wounds. If the earlier tribal relations had been in force, he would have certainly spared the Banu Qurayza. His fellow chiefs urged him to pardon these former allies, but he refused. In his view, the Banu Qurayza had attacked the new social order and failed to honor their agreement to protect the town. He ruled that all the men should be killed. Muhammad accepted his judgment, and the next day, according to Muslim sources, 700 men of the Banu Qurayza were executed. Although Sa'd judged according to his own views, his ruling coincides with Deuteronomy 20:12-14.

Most scholars of this episode agree that neither party acted outside the bounds of normal relations in 7th century Arabia. The new order brought by Muhammad was viewed by many as a threat to the age-old system of tribal alliances, as it certainly proved to be. For the Banu Qurayza, the end of this system seemed to bring with it many risks. At the same time, the Muslims faced the threat of total extermination, and needed to send a message to all those groups in Medina that might try to betray their society in the future. It is doubtful that either party could have behaved differently under the circumstances.

Yet Muhammad did not confuse the contentiousness of clan relations in the oasis with the religious message of Judaism. Passages in the Qur'an that warn Muslims not to make pacts with the Jews of Arabia emerge from these specific wartime situations. A larger spirit of respect, acceptance, and comradeship prevailed, as recorded in a late chapter of the Qur'an:
We sent down the Torah, in which there is guidance and light, by which the Prophets who surrendered to God's will provided judgments for the Jewish people. Also, the rabbis and doctors of the Law (did likewise), according to that portion of God's Book with which they were entrusted, and they became witnesses to it as well…. Whoever does not judge by what God has sent down (including the Torah), they are indeed unbelievers. (5:44)
Some individual Medinan Jews, including at least one rabbi, became Muslims. But generally, the Jews of Medina remained true to their faith. Theologically, they could not accept Muhammad as a messenger of God, since, in keeping with Jewish belief, they were waiting for a prophet to emerge from among their own people.

The exiled Banu Nadir and the Banu Qaynuqa removed to the prosperous northern oasis of Khaybar, and later pledged political loyalty to Muhammad. Other Jewish clans honored the pact they had signed and continued to live in peace in Medina long after it became the Muslim capital of Arabia.


Imagine you are general of christian army and you make contract with budhists in your city, that you shall protect city from foreign enemy, and when this army come close to the city, budhists joins this army and start to fight you fron inside the city. your women are unprotected beacuse budhists are in city already joined enemy army, and you are at the end of the city fighting this foreign army, when you defeat this foreign army and then attack budhists inside the city who betrayed you and broke the contract.

what would you do to them?

are those budhists innocent?