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yozhik
16-09-2011, 02:21 PM
The "County Court Bulk Clearing" is [allegedly] a Court, but it has no court rooms, no judges and no hearings.

No summons, no hearings, no 'day in court' ... in fact, no court room to hold a hearing, and the 'judges with jurisdiction' are supposedly based at the Nottingham County Court, not at the County Court Bulk Clearing itself.

According to their own documents, policies and practice codes, the "County Court Bulk Clearing" is not defined as a court, it is a Claim Production Centre [CPC].

It is an agency for the administration of the court 'red tape' and claims procedures. In other words, it is contracted as a processing centre.

LAWFUL REBELLION - ENGLISH COURTS ARE A SCAM.... - YouTube

AUDIO LINK

micklemus
16-09-2011, 02:24 PM
Yes, it deals with bulk debt collection.

When the claims are defended they're transferred to the Defendant's home court where all the things missing from the Bulk Centre are readily available.

Terrible scam

yozhik
16-09-2011, 02:29 PM
They [the CCBC] claim to be a court.
(listen to the audio)

When a defence is sent in, they reject the defence, send it back, and proceed with issuing a judgement, from the CCBC.

The reason for rejecting the defence can be that the 'defendant' has not used one of their forms, even though on their forms, it states that using their forms is a choice; i.e. 'you may use form XYZ'

The judgement has no case number, no name of the authorised judge issuing the judgement and no signature. The judgement has a payment plan specified despite there never having been a hearing nor any opportunity for a payment schedule to be agreed nor any consideration of current financial position.

So yes; a scam.

micklemus
16-09-2011, 02:42 PM
They [the CCBC] claim to be a court.
(listen to the audio)

When a defence is sent in, they reject the defence, send it back, and proceed with issuing a judgement, from the CCBC.

The judgement has no case number, no name of the authorised judge issuing the judgement and no signature. The judgement has a payment plan specified despite there never having been a hearing nor any opportunity for a payment schedule to be agreed nor any consideration of current financial position.

So yes; a scam.

Does the recording say whether the Defence was sent in on time, I wonder?

If it was, the judgment must be set aside as irregular. Take a look at CPR 12.3 and CPR 13.

My money's on the judgment being regular, in which case the Defendant should get advice on requesting a transfer of proceedings and applying to set aside. Unfortunately for the Defendant, he/she then has to satisfy the court that they have a good defence, which is probably all that needs to be said to debunk this one.

Of course, if the Defendant has a good Defence then he/she has nothing to moan about anyway.

Courts are entitled to impose payment conditions without a hearing. Quite obviously, the Defendant's consent isn't needed; it's a judgment not a contract. If Defendant can't pay then he/she should be taking debt advice and/or getting the proceedings transferred and making an application.

Terrible scam, as I say.

yozhik
16-09-2011, 02:45 PM
So no hearing, no court rooms, no judges, no opportunity for defence, no named judge, no court seal, no signature, no payment agreed, no financial position considered, a Processing Centre claiming to be a court ...

... and you say its all perfectly above board?

:rolleyes:

rumpelstilzchen
16-09-2011, 02:45 PM
I think you'll find it's Northampton, not Nottingham, yozhik.

Where's the scam?
You get the papers and apply to have the hearing at your local court.

micklemus
16-09-2011, 02:48 PM
So no hearing, no court rooms, no judges, no opportunity for defence, no named judge, no court seal, no signature, no payment agreed, no financial position considered, a Processing Centre claiming to be a court ...

... and you say its all perfectly above board?

:rolleyes:

Did you read my previous posts?

If a claim is defended then it's moved from Northampton (it's Northampton by the way) and all the things you're complaining about not being available become readily available.

micklemus
16-09-2011, 03:12 PM
PS - I can't listen to the audio here but am I right in thinking that this is the recording of the quite well spoken but highly strung lady who telephoned a clerk in the Bulk Centre?

If so, I've heard it before.

rumpole
16-09-2011, 04:11 PM
The "County Court Bulk Clearing" is [allegedly] a Court, but it has no court rooms, no judges and no hearings.

No summons, no hearings, no 'day in court' ... in fact, no court room to hold a hearing, and the 'judges with jurisdiction' are supposedly based at the Nottingham County Court, not at the County Court Bulk Clearing itself.

According to their own documents, policies and practice codes, the "County Court Bulk Clearing" is not defined as a court, it is a Claim Production Centre [CPC].

It is an agency for the administration of the court 'red tape' and claims procedures. In other words, it is contracted as a processing centre.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQeyOz4dQVk

AUDIO LINK (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQeyOz4dQVk)


But it is a County Court. It's part of Northampton County Court. The District Judges sitting there review each case as they come & make the necessary orders / directions prior to transferring them out.

This faux 'outrage' is a wee bit silly but I hope I've put you're mind at rest :D

micklemus
16-09-2011, 05:05 PM
Never let the truth get in the way of a good conspiracy, Rumpole. :D

Anyway, it's the new term goat sacrifice in the RCJ dungeons tonight. Hopefully see you there. I'll be in the gimp suit with the pink carnation.

Oops, I should have PM'd that. Cat's out of the bag now. :D

yozhik
16-09-2011, 06:20 PM
But it is a County Court. It's part of Northampton County Court. The District Judges sitting there review each case as they come & make the necessary orders / directions prior to transferring them out.

This faux 'outrage' is a wee bit silly but I hope I've put you're mind at rest :D

Then please correct me where appropriate.

It is my comprehension that the County Court Bulk Clearing is a Claim Processing Centre [CPC].

It is contracted to a County Court, to perform administrative services, to lessen the burden from the County Court itself. In other words, it is a contracted agency for the administration of the County Court.

The County Court Bulk Centre has no court rooms.
The County Court Bulk Centre holds no hearings, issues no warrants nor has any sitting judges within the County Court Bulk Centre.

The CPC is also referred to as a centre for bulk debt collection and also serves as a mail distribution centre for those 'users' who have filed claims.

That is my comprehension of the matter.
Please correct me, where wrong.

yozhik
16-09-2011, 06:22 PM
I think you'll find it's Northampton, not Nottingham, yozhik.
Whoops.
Thanks.

Where's the scam?
You get the papers and apply to have the hearing at your local court.

It 'smells' very much like those faux Parking Enforcement Notices ... in fact, it smells identical.

yozhik
16-09-2011, 06:25 PM
PS - I can't listen to the audio here but am I right in thinking that this is the recording of the quite well spoken but highly strung lady who telephoned a clerk in the Bulk Centre?

If so, I've heard it before.

I believe she speaks to two, maybe three different people.
Someone at the County Court itself [maybe two - will need to relisten] and also to a very rude representative of the CCBC who hangs up on her and doesn't appear to be willing to answer any questions.

All people from either the County Court and the CCBC claim that the CCBC is a Court.

yozhik
16-09-2011, 06:30 PM
But it is a County Court.
Excellent.
Then you should have no issues with providing a piece of legislation which supports that?

It's part of Northampton County Court.
By part, do you mean contracted agency?

The District Judges sitting there review each case as they come & make the necessary orders / directions prior to transferring them out.
Sitting where?
At the CCBC?
That wouldn't appear to be wholly consistent with information available from the County Court nor the CCBC.

This faux 'outrage' is a wee bit silly but I hope I've put you're mind at rest :D

LOL ... nice try.
I don't see any 'faux outrage' in the OP, nor was any intended.

But I do enjoy your constant snide remarks in an attempt to belittle the arguer ... you just can't help yourself, can you?

Always need to have a little dig ... tut tut ...

yozhik
16-09-2011, 06:31 PM
Anyway, it's the new term goat sacrifice in the RCJ dungeons tonight. Hopefully see you there. I'll be in the gimp suit with the pink carnation.


So just a normal day at the office then?

:D

bertieb
16-09-2011, 06:40 PM
http://www.justice.gov.uk/downloads/guidance/courts-and-tribunals/courts/bulk-centre/county-court-bulk-centre/rules-of-membership/CCBC-rules-work.pdf

They seem to think its a court.

yozhik
16-09-2011, 06:52 PM
Where specifically in this document are you referring to?

I've read it; I do not see where is states the CCBC is a court.
I may have overlooked it, so please correct me.

bertieb
16-09-2011, 06:58 PM
The accuracy of the output produced from the test files shall be confirmed as acceptable by the Centre User and the CCBC Court Manager before the Centre User can commence live processing through the CCBC.

If they have a court manager then they must think its a court.

yozhik
16-09-2011, 07:04 PM
If they have a court manager then they must think its a court.

LOL ... seriously?

So calling someone a CCBC Court Manager means that the CCBC is a Court?
That's all that's needed to form a Court?
Give someone a title with Court in their job title?

Awesome!

The question remains; where is the specific legislation that defines the CCBC [CPC] as a Court?

Everything in that document suggests the CCBC can issue paperwork on behalf of the County Court; i.e. as the appointed administration agency. There is nothing that specifically states that the CCBC is, in itself, a court.

However, I am happy to be corrected.

bertieb
16-09-2011, 07:15 PM
Heres another link, it would appear that Yozhik you may be right about it not being a "court".
http://www.justice.gov.uk/guidance/courts-and-tribunals/courts/northampton-bulk-centre/ccbc/index.htm
County Court Bulk Centre
The County Court Bulk Centre (CCBC) is located in Northampton. It has been set up by Her Majesty's Courts and Tribunals Service specifically to deal with straightforward debt collection work which, in the main, is undefended.

Working in partnership with local courts, the CCBC not only removes this mainly administrative and procedural work from local courts thus freeing staff time for other areas of work, they also provide users with a faster, guaranteed service. There are also discounts on the standard county court fees.

There is no minimum volume to qualify as a CCBC user. There is no charge for using the CCBC, other than the (reduced) court fees.

aulus agerius
16-09-2011, 07:35 PM
Ahh Northampton CCBC, place of issue for so many badly pleaded debt collection claims.

Seriously though, CCBC is not a scam. It does nothing but issue debt collection cases. As mickelmus said, as soon as a case is defended, the case is transfered to the Defendant's local county court. The caveat to that is that if you file a defence out of time, then your case may not be transfered - judgment may already have been entered.

CCBC is not a distinct court. For proceedural purposes, it's the same thing as Northhampton County Court.

The real problem with CCBC is not any of the things that Yozhik is interested in, it's that, because claim forms are submitted electronically, there is no capacity to attach important documents which ought to go with a claim form, such as copy credit agreements etc which makes it harder for defendants to work out if they actually owe the money claimed (since debt collection particulars of claim can be as brief as "D owes C £X in respect of account number Y")

Of course, Micklemus is being silly. It should be a white carnation. If it's the beginning of term ;)

yozhik
16-09-2011, 07:47 PM
Exactly.

It has been set up as a debt collection work.
It works in 'partnership' with local courts.
Described elsewhere as being 'contracted' to deal with the burden of administration processes and paperwork.
It has no court rooms.
No hearings are conducted by the CCBC.

The CPC policies do not mention it being the CCBC as a court.
The CPR make no mention of the CCBC being a court.
There is no official document I have found that supports the claims of its staff, and thos Legal beagles on here, of the Bulk Clearing Centres being a bona fide Court.

... and yet ...

Their staff claim it is a court.
They send out documentation with a printed seal of a court.
They issue documents as if a court and under the presumption of having the authority of a court.

The following may also be of interest;

The County Court Bulk Centre (CCBC) and the Claim Production Centre (CPC) were set up under rule 7.10 of the Civil Procedure rules to permit the production of claims, judgments, warrants of execution and paid data by means of electronic data transmission.

The current initiative by the Court service is to require all medium to large corporates and businesses who issue claims above a certain quantity to transmit their claim data for the collection of simple trade debts via the CCBC in Northampton.

The acceptance of volume paperwork to issue claim forms (N1), default judgments (N225) and warrants of execution (N323) will be phased out in favour of transmission of data files via the CCBC.

See parts 7 and 12 of the Civil Procedure Rules.

We supply debt collection software which can interface with your existing accounting software such as SAP, Oracle, Navision, Dynamics or Sage.
The rental cost of the software is more than offset by the saving in Court fees.
Debtor data can be uploaded and refreshed automatically.

Our low-cost solution streamlines the electronic interaction with the Court Service, links with your accounting system and brings many benefits:-
Speed
Lower Court fees via CCBC
Recovery of late payment charges
Reduction in bad debts
Charge Solicitors' fees
Chase letters
Statutory Demands
Notes and reporting

http://www.alliedfactors.com/index.htm

Here are the so called 'Solicitor's Fees'; http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http://www.justice.gov.uk/civil/procrules_fin/contents/parts/part45.htm#IDA0AKTB

A couple of conditions of using the CCBC;
Authority to issue through the Centre:-

3.1 Any claimant wishing to make use of the CCBC shall be an authorised user of the CPC under
CPR Rule 7.10.
3.2 Each claimant shall agree to issue all CPC debt claims in the name of the
Northampton County Court (Court code number: 335).


Anyone still think it's a court?

yozhik
16-09-2011, 07:52 PM
CCBC is not a distinct court.

So why does the staff of the County Court and the staff of the CCBC claim it is?
Why does every piece of paperwork from the CCBC appear as if the CCBC is a court?


For proceedural purposes, it's the same thing as Northhampton County Court.
Ah ... well shit; why didn't you say so?

If its procedure, then that explains it.
Form over substance again, eh?

Don't worry about the lies involved, or the intentional deception.
It's all about keeping up appearances and ensuring process is SEEN to be done, even though making false claims of being a court would be illegal, wouldn't it?

bertieb
16-09-2011, 08:26 PM
Authority to issue through the Centre:-
3.1 Any claimant wishing to make use of the CCBC shall be an authorised user of the CPC under
CPR Rule 7.10.
3.2 Each claimant shall agree to issue all CPC debt claims in the name of the
Northampton County Court (Court code number: 335).
http://tpuc.org/forum/viewtopic.php?p=134090
Hi Guys, my mother and father have received a bailiff removal letter from ''Equita Certificated Bailiffs" - this is from an unpaid parking ticket last year.
I have no idea why it says northampton country court, as we live in carlisle...
I do ;)

rumpole
16-09-2011, 08:41 PM
Exactly.

It has been set up as a debt collection work.
It works in 'partnership' with local courts.
Described elsewhere as being 'contracted' to deal with the burden of administration processes and paperwork.
It has no court rooms.
No hearings are conducted by the CCBC.

The CPC policies do not mention it being the CCBC as a court.
The CPR make no mention of the CCBC being a court.
There is no official document I have found that supports the claims of its staff, and thos Legal beagles on here, of the Bulk Clearing Centres being a bona fide Court.

... and yet ...

Their staff claim it is a court.
They send out documentation with a printed seal of a court.
They issue documents as if a court and under the presumption of having the authority of a court.

The following may also be of interest;



Here are the so called 'Solicitor's Fees'; http://webarchive.nationalarchives.gov.uk/+/http://www.justice.gov.uk/civil/procrules_fin/contents/parts/part45.htm#IDA0AKTB

A couple of conditions of using the CCBC;



Anyone still think it's a court?

I'm completely baffled as to why this is an 'issue'. It's a fact that online money claims are dealt with with the 'Bulk Handling Centre' which is part of Northampton CC. So what?

Anyone with even the faintest knowlege of civil procedure (this material is easily accessable online - it's not a secret) would know that you don't really need a Judge or a Court Room until a Defence to a Claim is filed. The only 'judicial decision' that's made is when a District Judge decides whether to allow the Claim to be served on the Defendant - these are instances when this is not appropriate. At this point they transfer the case to a local County Court. So what? The idea that this is somehow 'sinister' is paranoid idiocy of the first order.

aulus agerius
16-09-2011, 08:45 PM
So why does the staff of the County Court and the staff of the CCBC claim it is?
Why does every piece of paperwork from the CCBC appear as if the CCBC is a court?


If you look at an N1 that's been at the CCBC, it will say "IN THE NORTHAMPTON COUNTY COURT BULK CENTRE" or "IN THE NORTHAMPTON COUNTY COURT (CCBC)". As you yourself quoted from the rules, these cases are technically issued in the Northampton County Court. I presume that they tell people CCBC is a court because:
(a) they don't see the distinction
(b) they can't be bothered to explain the distinction or
(c) they think CCBC is a court.

Why do you think they do it?

Since you are so keen on substance over proceedure, perhaps you could explain what substantive difference it makes? In practical terms?


If its procedure, then that explains it.
Form over substance again, eh?


You're perfectly entitled to think that CCBC is a bad thing, perhaps it is. However, I still can't see what difference it makes what you call CCBC. Precisely what do you think would happen different?


Don't worry about the lies involved, or the intentional deception.
It's all about keeping up appearances and ensuring process is SEEN to be done, even though making false claims of being a court would be illegal, wouldn't it?

I doubt it's intentional. For practical purposes it's true. Suppose someone gets an N1 produced by CCBC and wants to know if it's legit. They call up Northampton CC. They ask if this CCBC is a court. Northampton CC say yes. Result? the N1 is legit.
Northampton CC explain the rules which established CCBC, what its for and how it works. Result? the N1 is legit.
Northampton CC say no and leaves it at that. Result? N1 is still legit, but the defendant who called up now thinks that it might not be.

Claiming to be a court would probably not, in itself, be an offence. It would have to make some difference: for example, if you claimed to be a court in order to pursuade someone to give you money, that would be fraud. If you randomly claim to be a court to every fifth person who calls you on the phone, that's just weird.

The point being, if what you are really concerned with is substance, what matters is whether the cases for which CCBC produces paperwork are dealt with justly. I don't see that in that case CCBC's status makes a difference to that

micklemus
16-09-2011, 08:51 PM
Of course, Micklemus is being silly. It should be a white carnation. If it's the beginning of term ;)

Damn it, I won't make judge this year. ;)

micklemus
16-09-2011, 08:54 PM
I've got a big problem with cable cars. It's a bloody scam. You see they're called cars but they don't go on the road and they sort of fly and stuff. Cable cars I tell you, what a evil scam that is.

yozhik
16-09-2011, 09:08 PM
You think making false claims of being a Court is frivolous?

yozhik
16-09-2011, 09:15 PM
I'm completely baffled as to why this is an 'issue'. It's a fact that online money claims are dealt with with the 'Bulk Handling Centre' which is part of Northampton CC. So what?

It isn't 'part of the Northampton Combined Court'.
It is a contracted processing centre.
A debt collection centre.
A bulk mail processing service.
it most certainly is not a court, despite the claims of its employees.

bertieb
16-09-2011, 09:19 PM
Is it an office that sends out letters on behalf of Northampton County Court with their permission?

yozhik
16-09-2011, 09:36 PM
Is it an office that sends out letters on behalf of Northampton County Court with their permission?

They are contracted by the courts to process claims.
So they send out claims on behalf of the claimants, which is who uses the proprietary software, as required by the court service.

Just a minor aside, it is either the "Northampton Combined Court", or the "Northampton County Court Bulk Centre".

It would appear there is no "Northampton County Court", per se.


Northampton Combined Court
85/87 Lady’s Lane Northampton Northamptonshire NN1 3HQ England DX 725380 Northampton 21
More Information: Combined Crown and County Court00

Northampton County Court (County Court Bulk Centre)
Court Address 4th floor, St Katharine’s House, 21-27 St Katherine’s Street Northampton Northamptonshire NN1 2LH DX: 702885, Northampton 7
Work Type: Not available

In January 1990 the Claim Production Centre (CPC) (originally called the Summons Production Centre) was created, with the power to issue and serve claims through information technology. This is currently enshrined within Rule 7.10 of the Civil Procedure Rules 1998 (CPR). This states that "…there shall be a Production Centre for the issue of claim forms and other related matters…" and that the relevant practice direction makes provision for its use and any modification or disapplication of the CPR.

All claims issued through the CPC were originally issued in the name of a county court in the same way as claims issued in the traditional manner. In March 1992 the CCBC was created to remove the burden of routine matters in simple CPC cases from the other county court. The current definition of such matters is contained in Practice Direction 7C.

Currently both the CPC and CCBC are located in Northampton. Claims issued through the CCBC show Northampton County Court as their Court of issue.

rumpole
16-09-2011, 09:37 PM
It isn't 'part of the Northampton Combined Court'.
It is a contracted processing centre.
A debt collection centre.
A bulk mail processing service.
it most certainly is not a court, despite the claims of its employees.

It is a Court - it's part of Northampton CC. It's staffed by Court Service Employee's & a District Judge will review each claim as it arises.

In any case who are to decide what is or isn't a Court? I've never seen you display any particular expertise vis a vis the British Judicial system & Constitution.

yozhik
16-09-2011, 09:46 PM
Purpose of the thread has been satisfied, which was to merely bring attention to the whole CCBC scam, and also to raise the question of claiming to be a court, when clearly, it isn't.

If any one is interested in calling them directly and asking questions, be sure to record the conversation for your own benefit, or to share for the education of others.

:)

Have fun!

micklemus
16-09-2011, 10:01 PM
You think making false claims of being a Court is frivolous?

No, I think your interpretation of all this and the thread generally are frivolous. Anyway, I see you're putting the lid on this one. Before you go, can I suggest another court conspiracy for you to look up?

Tennis courts. Terrible business this. The number of times I've been down there to our local tennis courts and not seen a judge or a hearing, you wouldn't believe it. Come to think of it, I don't think I've ever seen a judge down there.

Bastard conspiracy that is.

rumpelstilzchen
16-09-2011, 10:27 PM
Anyway, it's the new term goat sacrifice in the RCJ dungeons tonight. Hopefully see you there. I'll be in the gimp suit with the pink carnation.



Ahha! You're the one who wears the gimp suit!
That trick you do with the melon...well...if I hadn't have seen it with my own eyes I would have definitely said it was impossible.:D

rumpelstilzchen
16-09-2011, 10:42 PM
It would appear there is no "Northampton County Court", per se.



So if you live in Northampton and somebody issues a claim against you does that mean you're snookered?

bertieb
16-09-2011, 11:39 PM
It would appear there is no "Northampton County Court", per se.
Northampton Crown & County Court
85-87 Lady's Lane, Northampton NN1 3HQ, United Kingdom

There is a Crown and County Court , which isnt all that different.

britishnick
19-09-2011, 07:08 PM
The "County Court Bulk Clearing" is [allegedly] a Court, but it has no court rooms, no judges and no hearings.

No summons, no hearings, no 'day in court' ... in fact, no court room to hold a hearing, and the 'judges with jurisdiction' are supposedly based at the Nottingham County Court, not at the County Court Bulk Clearing itself.

According to their own documents, policies and practice codes, the "County Court Bulk Clearing" is not defined as a court, it is a Claim Production Centre [CPC].

It is an agency for the administration of the court 'red tape' and claims procedures. In other words, it is contracted as a processing centre.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQeyOz4dQVk

AUDIO LINK (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQeyOz4dQVk)

Agreed - a scam. I got a letter from that very same bunch recently. I wasn't told that my 'case' was going to court' I was given the option to fill in one of 4 possible apeals boxes, no others. It's clearly a scam, utter bullshit place to 'register' debts. Now I'm guessing (?) that if anyone is emplyed to collect those debts that they are not court baliffs, but they are debt collectors - i.e. they are a private company that have no powers over anyone other than those who consent...???

rumpelstilzchen
19-09-2011, 08:10 PM
Agreed - a scam. I got a letter from that very same bunch recently. I wasn't told that my 'case' was going to court' I was given the option to fill in one of 4 possible apeals boxes, no others. It's clearly a scam, utter bullshit place to 'register' debts.
If you are saying that the claimant has obtained a judgment against you and this is the first thing you have heard about it apply to have it set aside.
However, I wouldn't be surprised if your case refers to an parking ticket and you have ignored everything from the council.
Perhaps you could clarify?

yozhik
19-09-2011, 08:48 PM
Agreed - a scam. I got a letter from that very same bunch recently. I wasn't told that my 'case' was going to court' I was given the option to fill in one of 4 possible apeals boxes, no others. It's clearly a scam, utter bullshit place to 'register' debts. Now I'm guessing (?) that if anyone is emplyed to collect those debts that they are not court baliffs, but they are debt collectors - i.e. they are a private company that have no powers over anyone other than those who consent...???

Their own forms give you the option of using their forms ... or not.

"you may use these forms ..."

Or? [not specified]

The word 'may' would suggest choice, would it not?
Given they have not specified the alternative to their forms, it would be 'reasonable' to determine that a hand written note or a typed letter would satisfy. They are a reasonable form of communication, as per common usage, are they not?

micklemus
19-09-2011, 10:37 PM
Let's dispel that one before it becomes another freeman myth. You don't have to use the standard Response Pack form for the Defence. Most important thing is to respond on time and in a form which clearly explains the defence (if there is one). The Response Pack forms are very good for those who aren't used to the court process though. Highly recommended on that basis, but they've got nothing to do with registering debts or any other weirdness.

yozhik
19-09-2011, 10:42 PM
So we agree again. :D

Woo hoo; we're on a roll ...