The Most Rapid and Direct Means to Eternal Bliss [Archive]

rossus

14-12-2007, 02:06 PM

http://www.amazon.com/DIRECT-RAPID-MEANS-ETERNAL-BLISS/dp/0979726794/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1197513328&sr=1-1
http://www.albigen.com/uarelove/most_rapid/contents.aspx
will read it soon.... but at first sight it looks good,
because he talks about the "awareness watching awareness" method...

but i also see he's advocating "imagine you are in space" kind of methods.....
which to me sounds a bit stupid....

because imagination is a thing of the ego,
what imagining things have to do with being aware of who you are... is beyond me.

Awareness watching awareness, infinite joy, awakening......it's all just words on paper to me. I can get nothing from this
you can't just read it, and expect to be enlightened just by reading it.

you need to be honest with yourself,
be willing to see the cause of unhappiness... which is desire.
and the cause of desire is ignorance of your true-self... which is desirelessness.

so, the way to "eternal bliss" (enlightenment)... is to recognize your true-self.
i recommend try to meditate daily for 30 to 60 minutes... (the right way!!! not one of those fluffy "imagine you see white light" meditations)

if you forget to meditate or have no time... or don't feel like it, you can skip now and then.....
but the Ego will never like meditation... because it sees it as boring... as nothing....
it is affraid of it... so try to at least 3 times per week.

and the point is to be aware (like in meditation) during everything you do...
so you don't meditate just in meditation, you meditate all the time.....

sounds hard, but it's actually quite easy because meditation is Effortless...... it's not meditating which cost effort.
all you have to do, is notice when you are unhappy... and then you will be motivated to become aware (meditation)
and to stop making yourself unhappy.

and then soon or later....
you will realize your true self, which is eternal happiness in Essence.
this will happen instantly, if you are already ripe.
or it will happen soon or later... it took me a year or so to get "ripe"...

but i'm sure for many it happens after just a half year... and for others it happens perhaps just after two years.
if you want to be "enlightened", it will happen... in fact is has already happened, nothing has to happen...
just see :)

but after just a few weeks, you will already notice possitive effect...

because you've gotten insight in the cause of Unhappiness,
and you will not make yourself as unhappy as you used to do...

and when you finally stop making yourself unhappy.... then you see Clearly...
and then you have found your "True-Self" :)

logic bomb

14-12-2007, 07:56 PM

Thanks Cleft :)

zero1

14-12-2007, 08:05 PM

I guess that would be an interesting read, but I don't believe reading about this stuff is productive anymore. I read lots, during my 20's, but all I got was conflicting information and con-fusion.

So, I looked inside and that's where the real journey took place. It was far more rapid than the struggle before.

Still, thanks Cleft for another heads-up. :)

21_12_2012

15-12-2007, 11:58 AM

http://www.amazon.com/DIRECT-RAPID-MEANS-ETERNAL-BLISS/dp/0979726794/ref=sr_1_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1197513328&sr=1-1
http://www.albigen.com/uarelove/most_rapid/contents.aspx

Thanks for posting this. I read it all yesterday, made a lot of sense, and was
a good read.

It would be interesting to hear from someone who has actually 'killed' their
ego using the methods described in the book, and how it has changed their
life/perceptions/beliefs etc.

Definately worth reading, thanks Cleft.

mightiswrong

18-12-2007, 03:27 PM

The main thing about this book is a clearer communication of what focussing on the "I AM" means i.e. How to look inwards. I have started using the technique and it is true the effects are immediate.

Here is the key information:

THE AWARENESS WATCHING AWARENESS METHOD
PRACTICE INSTRUCIONS:

74. Description A: Shut your eyes. Notice your awareness. Observe that awareness. Turn your attention away from the world, body and thought and towards awareness watching awareness. If you notice you are thinking, turn your attention away from thought and back towards awareness watching awareness.
75. Description B: Look out at the room and notice your awareness looking out through your eyes. Now shut your eyes and notice that same awareness is still there that a moment ago was looking outward at the room. Observe that awareness. If you seem to be having a lot of thoughts, ignore them and turn your attention away from the thoughts and towards awareness observing awareness.
76. Description C: Shut your eyes. Notice that you are conscious. Watch that consciousness. Every time you notice a thought, turn your attention away from the thought and continue watching your consciousness. Do not watch your thoughts. Watch your consciousness. Consciousness watching consciousness. Consciousness conscious of consciousness.
77. Description D: Shut your eyes. Turn your attention away from thought and watch the watcher.
78. Description E: Shut your eyes. Notice your awareness. Be aware of your awareness. If you notice you are thinking, turn your attention away from thought and towards awareness of awareness.
79. Description F: Shut your eyes. Just remain in awareness aware of itself. If there are thoughts, bring your attention back to awareness aware of itself.
80. Description G: Shut your eyes. You observe your awareness. If there are thoughts, turn your attention away from the thoughts and continue to observe your awareness.
81. Description H: Shut your eyes. Turn your attention towards awareness and concentrate on awareness. Concentrate in a relaxed manner without effort. If thoughts are noticed, turn your attention away from the thoughts and back towards concentrating on awareness.
82. Description I: Shut your eyes. Be aware of being aware. Now remain in that awareness of awareness. If there are thoughts, turn your attention away from the thoughts and continue being aware of being aware.
83. Description J: Shut your eyes. Notice you are aware. Look at that awareness. Remain in awareness looking at awareness. If thoughts arise, look away from the thoughts and go back to looking at awareness. Remain in that awareness looking at awareness.
84. Description K: Shut your eyes. Your present awareness watching your present awareness, while ignoring all else.
85. Description L: Look at the room. Notice your awareness looking through your eyes. Shut your eyes and turn your attention around to look at itself. Attention attending to attention. Remain with that. Don’t move from that. Don’t attend to anything else. Don’t attend to thought. Attend only to attention.
86. Description M: Look at the room. Notice your awareness looking through your eyes. Now shut your eyes. Notice that same awareness that was looking through your eyes a moment ago. Now turn that awareness around degrees away from the world, the body and thought and towards itself, towards awareness watching awareness.
87. Description N: Look at the room. You are the seer. Your awareness is that which sees. Shut your eyes. See the seer. Remain with that. Turn your attention away from thought and towards the seer.
88. Description O: Shut your eyes. Turn your attention away from the known and know the knower.
89. Description P: Shut your eyes. Awareness aware only of awareness. Remain there. Dwell there. Be there. Live there.
90. Description Q: Shut your eyes. One awareness observing one awareness. Not two, one observing the other. Only one. Observe your awareness. If you notice you are thinking, do not attempt to complete the thought. Drop the thought and continue observing your awareness.
91. Description R: Shut your eyes. Observe your awareness. Relax into your awareness. Remain there, aware only of your awareness.
92. Description S: Shut your eyes. Turn your awareness away from what it is aware of and towards awareness aware only of itself.
93. Description T: Shut your eyes. Directly experience your own awareness by observing your awareness and relaxing into your awareness. Rest in your awareness of awareness. Rest in awareness aware only of itself. Remain in awareness. Do not remain in thought.
94. Description U: There are the things you are aware of. There is the awareness that is aware of the things. Instead of observing the things, observe the awareness. Shut your eyes. There are thoughts and feelings. There is the awareness that is aware of thoughts and feelings. Instead of observing thoughts and feelings, observe the awareness.
95. Description V: Shut your eyes. Do not observe thought. Observe awareness. Awareness observing awareness is empty. There is no thing to observe there. Don’t complicate it by thinking there is more to it. Awareness is subtle. In awareness observing awareness there is only awareness. It is simple. Remain in awareness observing itself.
96. Description W: Shut your eyes. Focus on the awareness that thoughts are arising in. Do not focus on the thoughts. Thoughts come and thoughts go. The awareness that thoughts are arising in does not come and go. Be aware of the awareness that does not come and go. When there are thoughts, watch the awareness, not the thoughts. When there are no thoughts, watch the awareness. Thoughts or no thoughts, continue to observe the awareness, not the thoughts. Continue to relax in and be aware of your awareness. Remain there. Be there.
97. Description X: Shut your eyes. If you see light, turn your attention away from the light and towards awareness of awareness. If you see darkness, turn your attention away from the darkness and towards awareness aware only of awareness. If you notice your breathing, turn your attention away from the breathing and towards awareness aware only of awareness. Whatever you become aware of, turn your attention away from it and towards awareness of awareness.
98. Description Y: Shut your eyes. Awareness not aware of thoughts. Awareness not aware of emotions. Awareness not aware of anything except awareness. Awareness aware of nothing except awareness. The background of awareness aware only of the background of awareness. Awareness aware only of awareness. Awareness only. Awareness alone.

shankara

03-05-2008, 01:57 AM

seanie

03-05-2008, 03:54 AM

I have came to the same conclusions fairly naturally, by analyzing my own emotions. basically the ego is all the programming you have built up over the years, I think a good example of this is personality archetypes, take the jealous type for example. feeling angry at someone else for there own insecurities.

cleft_asunder

03-05-2008, 04:10 AM

I wanted to bump this thread. I was looking at some archives here and was surprised to see this. I've had this book for maybe 18 months. It really is excellent and lives up to the title. Not much theory; it is straight to the point. This and I Am That (Nisargadatta) were really helpful in my own awakening, as well as Ramana Maharshi's teachings. The Most Rapid and Direct Means to Eternal Bliss was very simple, yet also demanding in the sense that it isn't about indulging you, but instead shines a light on all the excuses and pitfalls we let ourselves get caught in.

However, I will warn that because these books are not as much theory, but more like knives that cut out all chatter and reduce your mind to stillness, I didn't have much understanding of what happened to me when I did have my "bliss experience." If you are looking for more understanding I would recommend Sri Aurobindo's The Life Divine. I started this about 3 months ago, and it finally made sense out of my experience. It is very different than the other books I've mentioned, so give it a chance. Heavy reading but very complete, you might have to re-read this one to absorb it all. Honestly I think it is maybe the best book I've ever read (though I really resisted it at first), but you'll probably want to start with other books if you aren't familiar with the concepts of Advaita Vedanta. The Life Divine isn't nihilistic; it embraces the world as Brahman instead of denies it as illusion. It allows for multiplicity in the unity so you become the Oneness, absolute Being, while still retaining your individuality.

Excellent, thank you. Yes, it wouldn't make sense to fully become the absolute being. As Tolle says, "it is you yet it is greater than you." If subjective consciousness (manifest in humans) were allowed to re-integrate with God fully --BE God fully in other words-- then how could the multiverse function? How could it go on? The no-longer subjective consciosness would have absolute knowledge! To simplify: What if every game you played, you already knew the answers and there was no mystery? And also, would you invite someone like that to play against you?

God has allowed the Enlightenment experience to only go so far, so that God keeps itself a mystery to subjective consciousnesses.

shankara

03-05-2008, 06:18 AM

Excellent, thank you. Yes, it wouldn't make sense to fully become the absolute being. As Tolle says, "it is you yet it is greater than you." If subjective consciousness (manifest in humans) were allowed to re-integrate with God fully --BE God fully in other words-- then how could the multiverse function? How could it go on? The no-longer subjective consciosness would have absolute knowledge! To simplify: What if every game you played, you already knew the answers and there was no mystery? And also, would you invite someone like that to play against you?

God has allowed the Enlightenment experience to only go so far, so that God keeps itself a mystery to subjective consciousnesses.

I know in my experience I did merge with infinite Being. All of creation was coming through me, I remember it was like I was looking through my eyes from behind my eyes, and I was not "Carly" anymore, but the "Is-ness" Yet the experience ended after a few days and I was back to being Carly, though transformed. Not a separate identity anymore, but a unique identity, unlike during the experience where it was just Oneness without distinction. I think somehow it is that everything is both a drop and the entire ocean at once. Our logical minds seek to separate in terms of "many" and "one," and believes that something cannot be both, but to All That Is, there is no need for this distinction. I also don't believe the world is an illusion, in the sense that there is nothing there. Reading those kind teachings and experiencing what I did, I went a bit crazy for a week or so after it happened to me (as in, every thought I had or action I took, I thought "Who is doing this?!").

Now I see that the world is an not illusory in that it doesn't exit at all, but only in that we are mistaken in what it is. We think it is made up of limited beings, separate from each other and from God, each struggling against each other for self-preservation, when it is really Brahman being expressed through multiplicity; Brahman playing at being limited and ignorant, which doesn't threaten it's infinite Oneness.

cleft_asunder

03-05-2008, 08:30 AM

I know in my experience I did merge with infinite Being. All of creation was coming through me, I remember it was like I was looking through my eyes from behind my eyes, and I was not "Carly" anymore, but the "Is-ness" Yet the experience ended after a few days and I was back to being Carly, though transformed. Not a separate identity anymore, but a unique identity, unlike during the experience where it was just Oneness without distinction. I think somehow it is that everything is both a drop and the entire ocean at once. Our logical minds seek to separate in terms of "many" and "one," and believes that something cannot be both, but to All That Is, there is no need for this distinction. I also don't believe the world is an illusion, in the sense that there is nothing there. Reading those kind teachings and experiencing what I did, I went a bit crazy for a week or so after it happened to me (as in, every thought I had or action I took, I thought "Who is doing this?!").

Now I see that the world is an not illusory in that it doesn't exit at all, but only in that we are mistaken in what it is. We think it is made up of limited beings, separate from each other and from God, each struggling against each other for self-preservation, when it is really Brahman being expressed through multiplicity; Brahman playing at being limited and ignorant, which doesn't threaten it's infinite Oneness.

I understand what you're saying, but when you re-aquired that perspective of the infinite one, did you become all knowing?

chris

03-05-2008, 10:27 AM

It makes me laugh when people talk about their "quickest method to enlightenment," are they enligthened themselves? Then they are obviously jumping the gun.

grannymoose

03-05-2008, 12:18 PM

THANK YOU.
Only 2 days ago i was seeking the answer to what is the ego. how can i remove it.
i asked for the answe and here i find it :)

anoninnyc

03-05-2008, 02:51 PM

i think this is the most important book i have ever read. thank you.

chris

03-05-2008, 04:18 PM

The long way it turns out is the fastest and most direct. Unless you want to get lost for many years, don't accept anything else.

anoninnyc

03-05-2008, 06:51 PM

The long way it turns out is the fastest and most direct. Unless you want to get lost for many years, don't accept anything else.

read the book first. there are no short cuts to this, but there is such a thing as getting to the core of the matter.

chris

03-05-2008, 06:56 PM

read the book first. there are no short cuts to this, but there is such a thing as getting to the core of the matter.

Have done and no it doesn't.

mightiswrong

03-05-2008, 07:00 PM

Ok so what is the core of the matter chris?

chris

03-05-2008, 08:02 PM

Ok so what is the core of the matter chris?
Just look at those who practice this philosophy...Many do progress yet so many more fail miserably, even after 50 years in a monastery...There is something else to it that puts it into action.

It says preferably that you should do it 12 hours a day…How far has this person got? It’s ironic that he says this is the most rapid and direct when it’s clear this person doesn’t practice what he preaches.

It also shows watered down versions of his technique (which has been taught for thousands of years), why would you do that? Does that mean he is saying "Do the master technique for 20 years and you'll be enlightened or if not do the secondary technique for 40 years and you'll be enlightened"? Evidentially, he is showing how it's okay to be a slacker as long as you spend you time sitting down doing jack shit.

He reminds me of Samuel Warl, yet at least he went a stage further with his technique and said to at least follow the chain of distractions back to the source...This guy above just says to let it go. You miss out on a huge opportunity to really understand your minds psychology and what your true weaknesses are by learning what initially distracts you in the first place...It is never the thing that's on your mind and you'll be surprised how far back you can trace the chain of distractions.

The writer is so arrogant to say that no one should ever need another book again...This is bullshit because what he's telling is just a very basic technique that people use for other things or use in combination of physical improvement. Yet he doesn't even go into the basics on this.

If a westerner followed his book exactly, they would probably go insane because they most likely are living extremely stressful lives and then they go home and have to listen to their mind for several hours a day...

People should start with your feet on the ground (the physical) then moving your way up to mental...Look at old yogic texts, you will see they warn people of the effects of an unfit body when they try to tackle the mind. Even Plato talked about this, this is why he had intitiates fast 40 days before he would even start to train them.

What is meditation other than concentration? When you find yourself pull off an amazing move in sports, or say you dodge a ball from hitting you in the face. What happens? Time slows down (at least your perception of it). You need to learn to concentrate, not sit down.

These quacks have no idea of shaktipat, no idea of elixirs or stones, no idea how to link up with Egregores, no idea of fasting, no idea even of meditation yet they are quite happy to say that this is the only book they will need. At least if your gonna rob someone of a bit of cash, they should at least open their minds to other things out there.

chris

03-05-2008, 08:33 PM

Look how the author uses traditional brainwashing methods to quell discernment...Decent authors would make people ponder over well written sentences rather than saying "I'm wise so read me 3 times and if you don’t, it’s your ego.”

Stay with one sentence for a very long time before proceeding to the next sentence.

Do not think about what is being read.

Thinking is the tool of the ego.

Thinking will lead away from insight.

Do not let the ego’s arguments prevent you from seeing what is being taught.

Do not allow the ego to distort what is being taught.

Do not allow the ego to add to what is being taught, for that too is a method the ego uses to distort.

The ego isn’t the bogey man newagers make it out to be. After all, your ego is interested in learning how to annihilate itself to begin with. There are very dark part of it but then there are amazingly positive parts of it ascending Jacobs ladder.

cleft_asunder

04-05-2008, 12:04 AM

THANK YOU.
Only 2 days ago i was seeking the answer to what is the ego. how can i remove it.
i asked for the answe and here i find it :)

Since you're a bit new to the idea, I strongly recommend A New Earth. Tolle went from suicidal depression to Enlightenment in one night. The book is simple and beautiful and it goes into all the details without being overwhelming at all. Enlightenment isn't some advanced philisophical idea that demands thick books, that's why I'm not too impressed by the book I Am That, which is more philisophical than practical. It seems that book was written for the philosopher.

cleft_asunder

04-05-2008, 12:04 AM

i think this is the most important book i have ever read. thank you.

I'm glad to hear it!

cleft_asunder

04-05-2008, 12:09 AM

The long way it turns out is the fastest and most direct. Unless you want to get lost for many years, don't accept anything else.

There is no long way or short way,there are only ways, and every way is unique. To say to yourself "I'm on the long way to enlightenment" is to project yourself into a future that never arrives, and therefore you will not realize your true state in this life. Enlightenment happends now, and it's just a matter of saying yes or no to the now. The reason you would want to say yes is because you have a deep passion for it, OR you're very unhappy. It's okay to say no if you are enjoying life --enjoying playing out your subjective part. Then there is no problem.

Don't make something extremely simple complex.

cleft_asunder

04-05-2008, 12:13 AM

Just look at those who practice this philosophy...Many do progress yet so many more fail miserably, even after 50 years in a monastery...There is something else to it that puts it into action.

It says preferably that you should do it 12 hours a day…How far has this person got? It’s ironic that he says this is the most rapid and direct when it’s clear this person doesn’t practice what he preaches.

It also shows watered down versions of his technique (which has been taught for thousands of years), why would you do that? Does that mean he is saying "Do the master technique for 20 years and you'll be enlightened or if not do the secondary technique for 40 years and you'll be enlightened"? Evidentially, he is showing how it's okay to be a slacker as long as you spend you time sitting down doing jack shit.

He reminds me of Samuel Warl, yet at least he went a stage further with his technique and said to at least follow the chain of distractions back to the source...This guy above just says to let it go. You miss out on a huge opportunity to really understand your minds psychology and what your true weaknesses are by learning what initially distracts you in the first place...It is never the thing that's on your mind and you'll be surprised how far back you can trace the chain of distractions.

The writer is so arrogant to say that no one should ever need another book again...This is bullshit because what he's telling is just a very basic technique that people use for other things or use in combination of physical improvement. Yet he doesn't even go into the basics on this.

If a westerner followed his book exactly, they would probably go insane because they most likely are living extremely stressful lives and then they go home and have to listen to their mind for several hours a day...

People should start with your feet on the ground (the physical) then moving your way up to mental...Look at old yogic texts, you will see they warn people of the effects of an unfit body when they try to tackle the mind. Even Plato talked about this, this is why he had intitiates fast 40 days before he would even start to train them.

What is meditation other than concentration? When you find yourself pull off an amazing move in sports, or say you dodge a ball from hitting you in the face. What happens? Time slows down (at least your perception of it). You need to learn to concentrate, not sit down.

These quacks have no idea of shaktipat, no idea of elixirs or stones, no idea how to link up with Egregores, no idea of fasting, no idea even of meditation yet they are quite happy to say that this is the only book they will need. At least if your gonna rob someone of a bit of cash, they should at least open their minds to other things out there.

What bullshit. 12 hours a day! And should I eat one bowl of rice a day, and become poor too? This has NOTHING to do with enlightenment. This is the corruption of enlightenment through dogma. Buddhism... throw it in the garbage!

The only prerequisite for enlightenment is focusing on the now and stopping the chit-chat in your mind, and then a deep joy comes into you. Medition is one side of the coin, while love is the other. They are integrated! You don't need to hide in a cave, but rather partake in life to it's fullest!

chris

04-05-2008, 12:25 AM

There is no long way or short way,there are only ways, and every way is unique. To say to yourself "I'm on the long way to enlightenment" is to project yourself into a future that never arrives, and therefore you will not realize your true state in this life. Enlightenment happends now, and it's just a matter of saying yes or no to the now. The reason you would want to say yes is because you have a deep passion for it, OR you're very unhappy. It's okay to say no if you are enjoying life --enjoying playing out your subjective part. Then there is no problem.

Don't make something extremely simple complex.

All I was saying was that when you look for shortcuts, your going to get lost...

What bullshit. 12 hours a day! And should I eat one bowl of rice a day, and become poor too? This has NOTHING to do with enlightenment. This is the corruption of enlightenment through dogma. Buddhism... throw it in the garbage!

LOL. I was quoting that crappy book you posted...

rossus

04-05-2008, 01:14 AM

Enlightenment isn't some advanced philisophical idea that demands thick books, that's why I'm not too impressed by the book I Am That, which is more philisophical than practical. It seems that book was written for the philosopher.
"being in the now" or "being enlightened" or "being in meditation",

for these to be,
which are all just different descriptions for the same thing...
only ONE "technique" needs be practiced...

even though the "technique" is probably indescribable with words,
i find that "I AM THAT" by Nisargadatta describes this technique better than any other i have come across.

i recently met up with a practitioner of Vipasanna meditation,
which is quite good and very similar to this stuff, but i think Nisargadatta stuff is better...

because like you said: it's not necessary to make something simple complicating. :)
"for the philosopher", i'm not sure if i understand what u mean...

but philosophizing about liberation is useless, and does not liberate (or "enlighten") anyone.

-----------------------------------------------------------

all other teachers like Gangaji, Eckhart Tolle, etc...
i find them to not stick to the Core, and sometimes even say a small lie
(but i won't go into detail about this last bit)

which in the end, is not in the benefit of the "seeker".
but maybe Nissy makes the same mistakes, and i just notice it less from him :)

---------------------------------------------------------------

but yes,
maybe sometimes "the ideal teacher" is different for different people.

which words are used to explain, are not so important.
what is important is that the person which is being explained to...

understands... and Self-Realizes.

rossus

04-05-2008, 01:32 AM

All I was saying was that when you look for shortcuts, your going to get lost...
i'm not sure exactly what kind of meditation,
or "spiritual practice" you are doing...

but likely it's something different than the kind talked about in this thread.
your style is not necessarily better or worse,

but i think... "different means to different ends"
LOL. I was quoting that crappy book you posted...
i didn't read the book he posted, i had a quick look.
the techniques don't seem ideal to me, but not crappy either.

though i think that in the end,
one must drop all techniques anyway...

because "meditation" or "enlightenment" (the way it is most talked about in this thread)
they are not the result of doing certain activities...

rather, they are the result of ceasing to do certain activities.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ahhh, i speak so vague lately...
maybe i have been doing so for a long time though...

i used to think i could explain "meditation" a little...

but lately, since i got more deeper into it.... (doing more of the walk, instead of the talk)
i find explaining it almost impossible.

words seem silly now. http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l116/ofioliti/MINI/shy_teehee.gif

chris

04-05-2008, 02:00 AM

i didn't read the book he posted, i had a quick look.
the techniques don't seem ideal to me, but not crappy either.

I just find it annoying when authors make out like their way is the best and that there is no more need for investigation. The best philosophers I have read make the point that there are many other ways but then argue their case.

When I first got into meditation, I spent about two years following the advice in the book and that was with shaktipat so I can't imagine how difficult it would be on it's own.

The main thing is that awareness is no good if your mind is crazy. In many cases spirituality fucks people up because they don't make progress and their practice deteriorates and in the end, they drive themselves insane.

Like I said, the old yogis warned of this and even some systems told the student to avoid the mind all together and simply work on fasting and hatha. This is too extreme for me but still, I'd much rather do this than have no health and try to reach enlightenment that way.

Just think how hard it is to telekenetically move an object...Well, in your body you've got to break down calcium deposits and remove all kinds of toxins. Your mind isn't strong enough to do this alone, it will reach a point where you'll platau and then all you are doing is just sitting down.

rossus

04-05-2008, 02:18 AM

When I first got into meditation, I spent about two years following the advice in the book and that was with shaktipat so I can't imagine how difficult it would be on it's own.
yes but from what i've read you say,
the spirituality you practice is quite a bit different than the stuff mostly talked about in this thread.

the stuff taught by Nisargadatta, Eckhart Tolle, Etc
as far as i know, these only teach how to liberate yourself from own created unhappiness and illusions...

and so be in the natural state, or the "now" (as eckie puts it)... which is blissful..

Just think how hard it is to telekenetically move an object...Well, in your body you've got to break down calcium deposits and remove all kinds of toxins. Your mind isn't strong enough to do this alone, it will reach a point where you'll platau and then all you are doing is just sitting down.
see,
moving something telekenetically is something completely different than the simple (yet effective) kind of spirituality talked about here,
for how to permanently be in a state of blissful happiness :p

cleft_asunder

04-05-2008, 03:58 AM

"being in the now" or "being enlightened" or "being in meditation",

for these to be,
which are all just different descriptions for the same thing...
only ONE "technique" needs be practiced...

even though the "technique" is probably indescribable with words,
i find that "I AM THAT" by Nisargadatta describes this technique better than any other i have come across.

i recently met up with a practitioner of Vipasanna meditation,
which is quite good and very similar to this stuff, but i think Nisargadatta stuff is better...

because like you said: it's not necessary to make something simple complicating. :)
"for the philosopher", i'm not sure if i understand what u mean...

but philosophizing about liberation is useless, and does not liberate (or "enlighten") anyone.

-----------------------------------------------------------

all other teachers like Gangaji, Eckhart Tolle, etc...
i find them to not stick to the Core, and sometimes even say a small lie
(but i won't go into detail about this last bit)

which in the end, is not in the benefit of the "seeker".
but maybe Nissy makes the same mistakes, and i just notice it less from him :)

---------------------------------------------------------------

but yes,
maybe sometimes "the ideal teacher" is different for different people.

which words are used to explain, are not so important.
what is important is that the person which is being explained to...

understands... and Self-Realizes.

What I'm saying in the philisophical regard is that Nisargadatta, at least superficially, speaks to the reader in a philisohpical sence, as if a competent philosopher apporached him one day and said, "Okay, I've heard about you and your experience, now put it into words." And Nis responds to the philisophical questions, but what is the point (as you said)? We all know that philosophy equals the mind, which, at best, shows you the door. And that is the book I Am That. Don't get me wrong though, it's not like the whole book is like that, but I just question... why try to interpret it into philosophy in the first place? Perhaps it seeks to entice the philosopher. And I must confess, it even makes rational philosophical sense to a LARGE extent, so perhaps I answer my own question as to why explenation through philosophy occurs. In the book Steppenwolf, it is a philosopher --an intellectual-- who is presented as potential for liberation! And Harry achieves it in the end.

I am curious what you find unture about Ganjagi, Tolle, and such. There's no reason not to say it.

cleft_asunder

04-05-2008, 04:07 AM

i'm not sure exactly what kind of meditation,
or "spiritual practice" you are doing...

but likely it's something different than the kind talked about in this thread.
your style is not necessarily better or worse,

but i think... "different means to different ends"

i didn't read the book he posted, i had a quick look.
the techniques don't seem ideal to me, but not crappy either.

though i think that in the end,
one must drop all techniques anyway...

because "meditation" or "enlightenment" (the way it is most talked about in this thread)
they are not the result of doing certain activities...

rather, they are the result of ceasing to do certain activities.

------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ahhh, i speak so vague lately...
maybe i have been doing so for a long time though...

i used to think i could explain "meditation" a little...

but lately, since i got more deeper into it.... (doing more of the walk, instead of the talk)
i find explaining it almost impossible.

words seem silly now. http://i94.photobucket.com/albums/l116/ofioliti/MINI/shy_teehee.gif

Well, I suppose that's the test, isn't it? Perhaps I do too much talking as well, which is evidence against me. But then again, if the state of enlightenment is so unspeakable, books such as A New Earth would not exist, since they would be purposeless.

No, no... I stick to it, and from experience. Probably not as much experience as you, but I say that enlightenment is on one level infinitely deep, and on the other quite simple to achieve. Problems arrise because the mind is constantly thinking it's something out there, something complex, something difficult to attain, when those are the exact barriers which keep you from it.

cleft_asunder

04-05-2008, 04:14 AM

yes but from what i've read you say,
the spirituality you practice is quite a bit different than the stuff mostly talked about in this thread.

the stuff taught by Nisargadatta, Eckhart Tolle, Etc
as far as i know, these only teach how to liberate yourself from own created unhappiness and illusions...

and so be in the natural state, or the "now" (as eckie puts it)... which is blissful..

see,
moving something telekenetically is something completely different than the simple (yet effective) kind of spirituality talked about here,
for how to permanently be in a state of blissful happiness :p

Rossus is right, you've fallen into a different path of meditation. There are two paths in meditation. One is about liberation (enlightenment) and the other is about human potential, such as telekenisis, telepathy, astral travel, communication with other-dimentional beings. One is beyond the multiverse, the other is the improvment of your subjective experience. Totally different.

Depends what you want.

shankara

04-05-2008, 06:02 AM

Rossus is right, you've fallen into a different path of meditation. There are two paths in meditation. One is about liberation (enlightenment) and the other is about human potential, such as telekenisis, telepathy, astral travel, communication with other-dimentional beings. One is beyond the multiverse, the other is the improvment of your subjective experience. Totally different.

Depends what you want.

Does it have to be so totally different? What do you think enlightenment is? Is it escaping this world? Why is going beyond the world somehow better? Why can't there be both a subjective experience and a Oneness experience? Aren't all things possible in an Infinite Oneness? Is subjective experience an illusion? Is God so limited that there must be this duality between Truth and illusion?

shankara

04-05-2008, 06:15 AM

I just find it annoying when authors make out like their way is the best and that there is no more need for investigation. The best philosophers I have read make the point that there are many other ways but then argue their case.

When I first got into meditation, I spent about two years following the advice in the book and that was with shaktipat so I can't imagine how difficult it would be on it's own.

The main thing is that awareness is no good if your mind is crazy. In many cases spirituality fucks people up because they don't make progress and their practice deteriorates and in the end, they drive themselves insane.

Like I said, the old yogis warned of this and even some systems told the student to avoid the mind all together and simply work on fasting and hatha. This is too extreme for me but still, I'd much rather do this than have no health and try to reach enlightenment that way.

I totally agree. As good as the book in the thread is, and even as good as I Am That is, it brought my mind to stillness, but didn't give me much else. After the bliss/Oneness experience ended, I had no mental concepts to understand this new reality I had been shown. I had been told that everything I had valued was irrelevant and an illusion, and that can lead to depression. Concepts are looked down upon as tricks of the ego, and you are taught the the mind is a complete illusion. This is illogical, and of course those that preach this don't live their words. These authors tell us that their ego is dead, yet they sign their name to their books (which shows they are still identified as an individual personality).

It is impossible to stay completely in the impersonal state while living in a physical universe, and the fact that they claim it is (or they have contradictory teachings on this) makes me question some of these authors. A person can be very advanced spiritually but everything must be in balance. Physical health is important and mental maturity and focus is important as well. Aurobindo was trained at Oxford and was well versed in Western philosophy. His teachings do not deny the mind or the world, nor do they deny the existence of a personal/subjective reality. I think that the denial of the subjective reality and of the world is an error, and one that can lead to insanity.

shankara

04-05-2008, 06:22 AM

moving something telekenetically is something completely different than the simple (yet effective) kind of spirituality talked about here,
for how to permanently be in a state of blissful happiness :p

I don't think it has to be so different because if I'm remembering correctly, in telekinesis you try to merge with the object you are trying to move, and have the object become part of your body or your energy. This seems in line with non-duality, in that there is only Brahman, and I and the object are the same. The physical world is the most dense and the most difficult to manipulate, so maybe many of the modern teachers don't have this ability yet. I've heard many stories of great yogis and avatars who had/have this ability (not talking about the fraudulent ones). They were not only focused on performing tricks, but were very much enlightened beings as well.

cleft_asunder

04-05-2008, 08:23 AM

Does it have to be so totally different? What do you think enlightenment is? Is it escaping this world? Why is going beyond the world somehow better? Why can't there be both a subjective experience and a Oneness experience? Aren't all things possible in an Infinite Oneness? Is subjective experience an illusion? Is God so limited that there must be this duality between Truth and illusion?

Enlightenment is simply finding something deeper than form --deeper than that which you think you are (the ego), which is consciousness unidentified with form. I didn't meant to use the word beyond it, because that implies the wrong thought about it. I never impied escaping form. That is an idea that has been planted into many people, and it's a poisonous idea. If I did imply that somewhere it was a hasty mistake. If you believe it's a prison then you are a prisoner, and that's why it's very common for those seeking enlightenment to believe that we need to escape. "I'm here and I need to get there." No, you're here in the present and you need to accept it because there is no there.

The whole multiverse is the expression of God or the face of God. So yes, subjectivity is part of that expression and not real. But don't think for a second that I'm implying that form = something we need to escape from.

Sorry, I'm too tired for this. I can't put it into words well right now. This will explain it better than I can. Scroll down to the blue writing.

http://www.amazon.com/You-Are-God-Get-Over/dp/0976506246/ref=pd_bbs_sr_1?ie=UTF8&s=books&qid=1209881616&sr=8-1

chris

04-05-2008, 11:05 AM

see,
moving something telekenetically is something completely different than the simple (yet effective) kind of spirituality talked about here,
for how to permanently be in a state of blissful happiness :p

Rossus is right, you've fallen into a different path of meditation. There are two paths in meditation. One is about liberation (enlightenment) and the other is about human potential, such as telekenisis, telepathy, astral travel, communication with other-dimentional beings. One is beyond the multiverse, the other is the improvment of your subjective experience. Totally different.

Depends what you want.

No, lol. You both get me wrong, although this is my fault because I used a terrible analogy…

What I was trying to say was that stressful thoughts and emotions tend to hide parts of your body where it is the least healthy. Some people have bad hearts and many hurtful thoughts and emotions linger there or some have gallbladder pains and stress gravitates towards it. Whether the toxins caused the stress or the stress caused the accumulation of toxins in that area is probably different to different people. The point I was trying to make was that there are very physical toxins like calcium deposits which stress absolutely loves to dwell in. The awareness meditation will work to some degree but then you will plateau because you have physical blockages which your mind isn’t strong enough to break into.

The hardest thing in meditation is to bringing up so called negativity in order to deal with it. Negativity comes very easily when being distracted but when your actively trying to deal with it, it hides mainly in the polluted parts of your body. However, take a stone or go on a fast and you’ll break these calcium deposits and toxins very easily. This leaves the negative emotions no place to hide and then you mind will be able to deal with them.

If you doubt that parts of your body contain emotions and thoughts, you should look into people who get transplants, a lot of the time they develop new habits. I was reading in the paper how an old granddad got a new kidney and he suddenly started swearing and eating M&Ms and watching films…This was exactly what the donor did before he was killed in a car crash. This is very common.

It is extremely difficult to deal with physical problems with just the mind. Your mind operates on a much higher frequency and though it is very precise, it is like trying to kill a bear with a sowing pin. This pin may be perfect for more intricate work but will do nothing to kill a bear and only make it extremely angry which is bad for you.

You both said that I am on a different path but the awareness meditation is like entry level. It was the first thing that I learnt and I still use it to some degree today. The main problem with it is that you tend non to try hard, you just sit there and do nothing. This isn’t because of complacency but because it has been taught in a bad way.

Concentration is the essence of living in the now, just think of times when you have concentrated really hard. Are you living in the now? Does time seem to slow down where you can remember more in that few seconds than what you did the rest of the day?

With the awareness meditation the author is discouraging you by emphasising on time taken rather than quality. Everyone slacks off now and then so if he’s missing out the most important part of the meditation which is effort, his teaching is basically the equivalent of a person just sitting down.

Not only that but they are being battered by their subconscious without a way to deal with it…So many people get extremely paranoid from meditating because they are simply analysing their thoughts and even very little things start to stress them out.

This all escalates into spiritual pride and makes people try to enlighten aesthetically. They change their name, wear stupid clothes and alienate themselves from society, I’ve seen this so many times. This is also my experience, I have meditated on and off almost all my life; although I really didn’t understand it until about 5-6 years ago or even now, I don’t quite understand but I fell into these pitfalls and I’m just trying to let you people know because most people never come out of this rut.

The lackadaisical awareness meditation can be improved greatly if you follow the chain of distractions back to it’s source. In the awareness meditation it says “Just let it go” but this is missing out on a great opportunity to really understand the psychology of your mind. For instance, in a Awareness meditation you might realise your thinking of dinner and you let it go. But if you hold the dinner thought form in your mind, you will probably remember what spurred this to occur. It might be perhaps a girl which you liked many years ago, she may have been distracting you for years and you didn’t even know it. Then hold that thought in your head and you might realise that behind or adjacent to this thought is the memory of your father hitting you. You continue doing this until you reach as far as you can. It is like your subconscious is giving you a ladder back to subconscious, each time you realise the distraction behind that, you climb another step. Finally the last thought you see might be you standing on the moon (astrology seems to play in this a lot) or you might see something that happened to you in another life or it could simply just be a completely random thing that your mind just likes to distract you with. I have done this to the point that for a short time, all my problems disappear, I feel like a thousand tons is lifted from my shoulders, I feel the kundalini energy energising one cell after another, my heart feels like a nuclear reactor, my mind feel like there is infinite space in my head and I’m seeing a symbolic dragon raising up to beautiful music. This is something that an amateur can do and has no bearing on whether someone has done the awareness meditation for 50 years…The awareness meditation described sucks.

It is a real pitfall to believe anyone that they have the most rapid and direct method to enlightenment.

Anyway, I doubt you’ve read this post but oh well…I am on the 4th day of a fast and I’m pretty bored…

omeriko

09-12-2008, 10:26 PM

chris

09-12-2008, 11:05 PM

hey Chris

you mentioned Jacobs Ladder. is it a reference to Richard Rose's system?

i read Richard Rose's The Albigen Papers and Psychology of the Observer, but although i felt intuitively drawn to his material, i couldn't put my finger on a practical "system".
maybe i should reread some sections.

you seem to have another way of meditation than "the awareness method" and i would greatly like you to expand on this subject if you like.

i'm not here to defend or criticize any book or system. i'm here to seek and learn. there are so many meditation techniques out there that i'm starting to feel that most of them are disinformation.

i find your way appealing, although i understand you divulged only the beginnig part of it, and would greatly appriciate any sources from which i could learn of it myself (books etc.).

i must admit it has the feeling of Richard Rose's teachings, although explained in a more understandable way.

i'd very much like to hear from you.
i realize this is a long dead post.

thanks,
omer.

Sorry about my pm box being full:rolleyes:I've emptied it now;)

No, I've never read any of 'Richard Roses' work...

It's difficult to find old meditation literature...I don't know how someone can write a whole book on it, it's just a basic technique and off you go.

The meditation I explained was used by the gnostics...In fact it was used by many people though...A better way to explain it would be this post I made on it below...I don't know if I posted it already in this thread as I haven't re-read it...I love making stupidly long posts that no one reads including myself:D

http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=11396&highlight=gnostic+meditation

tejas

10-12-2008, 02:28 AM

I wanted to bump this thread. I was looking at some archives here and was surprised to see this. I've had this book for maybe 18 months. It really is excellent and lives up to the title. Not much theory; it is straight to the point. This and I Am That (Nisargadatta) were really helpful in my own awakening, as well as Ramana Maharshi's teachings. The Most Rapid and Direct Means to Eternal Bliss was very simple, yet also demanding in the sense that it isn't about indulging you, but instead shines a light on all the excuses and pitfalls we let ourselves get caught in.

However, I will warn that because these books are not as much theory, but more like knives that cut out all chatter and reduce your mind to stillness, I didn't have much understanding of what happened to me when I did have my "bliss experience." If you are looking for more understanding I would recommend Sri Aurobindo's The Life Divine. I started this about 3 months ago, and it finally made sense out of my experience. It is very different than the other books I've mentioned, so give it a chance. Heavy reading but very complete, you might have to re-read this one to absorb it all. Honestly I think it is maybe the best book I've ever read (though I really resisted it at first), but you'll probably want to start with other books if you aren't familiar with the concepts of Advaita Vedanta. The Life Divine isn't nihilistic; it embraces the world as Brahman instead of denies it as illusion. It allows for multiplicity in the unity so you become the Oneness, absolute Being, while still retaining your individuality.

How long did you follow the teaching untill you reached your bliss experience?

omeriko

10-12-2008, 11:13 AM

thanks man, that was fast.

will give it a go.

by the way, what's this "thought criminal" gig? 1984?

chris

10-12-2008, 06:09 PM

thanks man, that was fast.

will give it a go.

by the way, what's this "thought criminal" gig? 1984?

Yes;)

shankara

31-12-2008, 07:23 AM

How long did you follow the teaching untill you reached your bliss experience?

Not long, just a couple of months. That was when I was only familiar with "I Am That" the book in the title of the thread, and maybe some materials by Ramana Maharishi. I was amazing but didn't last and it made me unable to function in the "normal world" for about a week after I "came down." That was scary and not fun at all, as you can imagine. Months later, It still didn't understand and went through the "dark night of the soul" which lasted 5 months. That's why Aurobindo's worked helped me, it connect the normal world with the bliss experience, so I didn't have to go around my life thinking that it was all a meaningless illusion. Since my last post in this thread I've had another of these experiences, over the summer. It only lasted maybe 15 minutes but was just as intense. I'm still working on getting to that place at will, but I won't struggle with it. I just have to surrender to the process. Better to be at an "8" or "9" on a daily basis than to be at a "10" every once and a while and a "4" the rest of the time, you dig? :)

cleft_asunder

31-12-2008, 07:40 AM

Not long, just a couple of months. That was when I was only familiar with "I Am That" the book in the title of the thread, and maybe some materials by Ramana Maharishi. I was amazing but didn't last and it made me unable to function in the "normal world" for about a week after I "came down." That was scary and not fun at all, as you can imagine. Months later, It still didn't understand and went through the "dark night of the soul" which lasted 5 months. That's why Aurobindo's worked helped me, it connect the normal world with the bliss experience, so I didn't have to go around my life thinking that it was all a meaningless illusion. Since my last post in this thread I've had another of these experiences, over the summer. It only lasted maybe 15 minutes but was just as intense. I'm still working on getting to that place at will, but I won't struggle with it. I just have to surrender to the process. Better to be at an "8" or "9" on a daily basis than to be at a "10" every once and a while and a "4" the rest of the time, you dig? :)

Having a spiritual crisis is a real bitch. I feel like I'm insane.

Go into more depth regarding life being a meaningless illusion. Because I have experienced this on mushrooms.

cleft_asunder

31-12-2008, 07:42 AM

This should be moved to the meditation forum.

shankara

01-01-2009, 04:30 AM

Having a spiritual crisis is a real bitch. I feel like I'm insane.

Go into more depth regarding life being a meaningless illusion. Because I have experienced this on mushrooms.

Well, I remember not being able to have clear thoughts. Even the simplest thought, such as "I want to take a walk" immediately triggered the following: "But there is no "I"; there is no one to take a walk. There isn't even an outside world to walk in. Who is it that wants to walk; who is even having this thought?" and on and on. Every thought, every second was like this, I kept scouring over books and websites to find an answer but to no avail. I went to a satsang with a disciple of Papaji, and asked him some of these questions, but he didn't really give me any immediate help, he just said it was normal and what sort itself out.

I couldn't sleep or have a conversation with anyone, couldn't enjoy anything. All pleasures and enjoyment in life seemed not just ridiculous and pointless but a distraction from Supreme Truth. All relationships also seemed pointless because these was no one there (no individual identity) to have a relationship with. How can you go about your daily life if there is no one there living it? If your own self, as an individual, distinct on at least some level from the rest of existence, doesn't exist? If there is no world there to live in? I'd have all these wonder "Why am I looking out from these eyes, from this viewpoint? Everyday I wake up and I'm coming from the perspective of 'Carly," with a limited physical body and limited experience. Why can't I access another 'body's' or 'person's' perspective just as easily, why am 'I, this individual, Carly' 'me' and not someone else or no one or everyone and everything at the same time? Is it all just arbitrary meaninglessness? Why do those that tell me that individuality is an illusion sign their individual names to their books, complete with their pictures and copyright notices?"

Is this similar to what you experienced?

Just to come down from this insanity I had to just give up on it, decide I didn't care, stopped looking for answered and focused on 'banal' pursuits, which I learned later were just as important and divine as anything else. One my mind had a break I was able to see things more clearly. Then I went into the dark night of the soul a few months later, and finally, a breakthrough to clarity, peace, and joy, which is not stagnant but always being fine-tuned. I'm not convinced anymore that there is a final "enlightenment" while in the physical body; I think there are definitely breakthroughs and leaps in consciousness, which feel like a totally new stratosphere in comparison, but I also think that you can always learn and grow.

I also eventually realized that my Samadhi experience was actually inclusive; it didn't show that I was illusory, or that the world was illusory, but instead that everything was perfect and divine, but that I just didn't see it for what it was. It was the books I had read that confused me. While they were beneficial in explaining non-dualism, and that the individual identity is not all we are, I think they gave me incorrect information (or maybe I just misinterpreted them) in leading me to believe that everything was an illusion. It could be that teachers like Maharshi and Nisaragadatta just had an esoteric way of explaining things, and their modern-day Western disciples did not look deeply enough at their teachings and took the "illusion" teachings too literally.

w1nstonsm1th84

01-01-2009, 05:21 AM

This should be moved to the meditation forum.

...and as if by magic...! ;)

cleft_asunder

01-01-2009, 06:24 AM

Well, I remember not being able to have clear thoughts. Even the simplest thought, such as "I want to take a walk" immediately triggered the following: "But there is no "I"; there is no one to take a walk. There isn't even an outside world to walk in. Who is it that wants to walk; who is even having this thought?" and on and on. Every thought, every second was like this, I kept scouring over books and websites to find an answer but to no avail. I went to a satsang with a disciple of Papaji, and asked him some of these questions, but he didn't really give me any immediate help, he just said it was normal and what sort itself out.

I couldn't sleep or have a conversation with anyone, couldn't enjoy anything. All pleasures and enjoyment in life seemed not just ridiculous and pointless but a distraction from Supreme Truth. All relationships also seemed pointless because these was no one there (no individual identity) to have a relationship with. How can you go about your daily life if there is no one there living it? If your own self, as an individual, distinct on at least some level from the rest of existence, doesn't exist? If there is no world there to live in? I'd have all these wonder "Why am I looking out from these eyes, from this viewpoint? Everyday I wake up and I'm coming from the perspective of 'Carly," with a limited physical body and limited experience. Why can't I access another 'body's' or 'person's' perspective just as easily, why am 'I, this individual, Carly' 'me' and not someone else or no one or everyone and everything at the same time? Is it all just arbitrary meaninglessness? Why do those that tell me that individuality is an illusion sign their individual names to their books, complete with their pictures and copyright notices?"

Is this similar to what you experienced?

Just to come down from this insanity I had to just give up on it, decide I didn't care, stopped looking for answered and focused on 'banal' pursuits, which I learned later were just as important and divine as anything else. One my mind had a break I was able to see things more clearly. Then I went into the dark night of the soul a few months later, and finally, a breakthrough to clarity, peace, and joy, which is not stagnant but always being fine-tuned. I'm not convinced anymore that there is a final "enlightenment" while in the physical body; I think there are definitely breakthroughs and leaps in consciousness, which feel like a totally new stratosphere in comparison, but I also think that you can always learn and grow.

I also eventually realized that my Samadhi experience was actually inclusive; it didn't show that I was illusory, or that the world was illusory, but instead that everything was perfect and divine, but that I just didn't see it for what it was. It was the books I had read that confused me. While they were beneficial in explaining non-dualism, and that the individual identity is not all we are, I think they gave me incorrect information (or maybe I just misinterpreted them) in leading me to believe that everything was an illusion. It could be that teachers like Maharshi and Nisaragadatta just had an esoteric way of explaining things, and their modern-day Western disciples did not look deeply enough at their teachings and took the "illusion" teachings too literally.

I don't really want to get into the details. I wanted to get your experience, and it's very interesting so thanks.

I don't think you went far enough. The reason it was so scary was because you were approaching the death before death. I bet that's the same as suicide. I wonder! You were still in the world of mind which is itself cold and meaningless. It is not the ultimate truth, but it mascarades as such. I believe mind and Satan are the same thing.

shankara

01-01-2009, 07:06 AM

I don't really want to get into the details. I wanted to get your experience, and it's very interesting so thanks.

I don't think you went far enough. The reason it was so scary was because you were approaching the death before death. I bet that's the same as suicide. I wonder! You were still in the world of mind which is itself cold and meaningless. It is not the ultimate truth, but it mascarades as such. I believe mind and Satan are the same thing.

True, true, this was years ago; I've learned a lot since. Still, these scary thoughts I had were not part of the bliss experience, which went beyond mind, and was not an experience of being connected to the infinite, but instead a first-hand, subjective experience of being the infinite, of being God, not a part but the whole, with the personal identity gone. I remember previously when I had come to the door, I did feel that fear, the ego was afraid of being destroyed, yet once I went through it, I distinctly remember thinking "This is what I was afraid of? This is not destroying myself, it's becoming myself and it's absolutely wonderful and perfect!" All of the thoughts and fears came afterwards, when I was trying to analyze the experience with the mind. Then, this past summer, I had another experience which was almost identical to the first, yet it simultaneously included the infinite, non-personal experience as well as the personal, and in that way was even more intense, though much shorter.

If you believe the mind is evil (I'm assuming you equate Satan with evilness) and you stopped using it, how would you be able discern truth from falsehood? How would you write these posts, how would you that function in the world? Or do you believe there is another form of thinking, clearer and more connected, that doesn't use the mind? Maybe you make a distinction between Lower mind (the ego, the treadmill of thoughts and logic never leading to infinity) and the Higher mind?

I don't believe that mind is evil, I believe that it is a tool which needs to be regulated and put in the proper perspective. The purpose of the mind is to make distinctions between the individual manifestations and forms of the Oneness. The mind only sees the parts, never the whole. The whole is more than a sum of the parts, as Infinity cannot be deduced and calculated, a number line will never reach infinity, the infinite is not composed of a set number of parts. Distinctions within Oneness is fine, it is the merely the Multiplicity in the Unity, the many expressions of God, which aren't quantifiable. Separation between those distinctions, where the Unity is lost, is what is to be avoided and is what the mind can lead you to if not tamed. IMO, the mind must be transcended, but does not need to be obliterated.

cleft_asunder

01-01-2009, 07:44 AM

True, true, this was years ago; I've learned a lot since. Still, these scary thoughts I had were not part of the bliss experience, which went beyond mind, and was not an experience of being connected to the infinite, but instead a first-hand, subjective experience of being the infinite, of being God, not a part but the whole, with the personal identity gone. I remember previously when I had come to the door, I did feel that fear, the ego was afraid of being destroyed, yet once I went through it, I distinctly remember thinking "This is what I was afraid of? This is not destroying myself, it's becoming myself and it's absolutely wonderful and perfect!" All of the thoughts and fears came afterwards, when I was trying to analyze the experience with the mind. Then, this past summer, I had another experience which was almost identical to the first, yet it simultaneously included the infinite, non-personal experience as well as the personal, and in that way was even more intense, though much shorter.

If you believe the mind is evil (I'm assuming you equate Satan with evilness) and you stopped using it, how would you be able discern truth from falsehood? How would you write these posts, how would you that function in the world? Or do you believe there is another form of thinking, clearer and more connected, that doesn't use the mind? Maybe you make a distinction between Lower mind (the ego, the treadmill of thoughts and logic never leading to infinity) and the Higher mind?

I don't believe that mind is evil, I believe that it is a tool which needs to be regulated and put in the proper perspective. The purpose of the mind is to make distinctions between the individual manifestations and forms of the Oneness. The mind only sees the parts, never the whole. The whole is more than a sum of the parts, as Infinity cannot be deduced and calculated, a number line will never reach infinity, the infinite is not composed of a set number of parts. Distinctions within Oneness is fine, it is the merely the Multiplicity in the Unity, the many expressions of God, which aren't quantifiable. Separation between those distinctions, where the Unity is lost, is what is to be avoided and is what the mind can lead you to if not tamed. IMO, the mind must be transcended, but does not need to be obliterated.

See how easy it is to turn truth/spirituality into an intellectual activity? I understand what you're saying but I've had this conversation in the past and it amounts to nothing. Sounds to me like you're in the same boat I am: Your spirituality is a memory and now you live from the perspective of mind again, which means words on top of words with an intellectual hangover at the end.

The part where you said you were judging the infinite through mind. I bet that's the ultimate mis-step. The mind is judging something that is impossible for it to ascertain. The consciousness (I AM), still identified with mind, "looks" at truth through mind which filters out the ultimate truth, and what is seen is a cold dead thing: Infinity/eternity as mathematical and without any foundation of purpose. All possibility, past, present, future playing out in the now, beginning and ending, a sea of universes being created and collapsing.

I do not know. Thinking about it doesn't result in a conclusion. I just hope it's good news in the end, rather than a cold dead thing.

shankara

01-01-2009, 08:10 AM

See how easy it is to turn truth/spirituality into an intellectual activity? I understand what you're saying but I've had this conversation in the past and it amounts to nothing. Sounds to me like you're in the same boat I am: Your spirituality is a memory and now you live from the perspective of mind again, which means words on top of words with an intellectual hangover at the end.

The part where you said you were judging the infinite through mind. I bet that's the ultimate mis-step. The mind is judging something that is impossible for it to ascertain. The consciousness (I AM), still identified with mind, "looks" at truth through mind which filters out the ultimate truth, and what is seen is a cold dead thing: Infinity/eternity as mathematical and without any foundation of purpose. All possibility, past, present, future playing out in the now, beginning and ending, a sea of universes being created and collapsing.

I do not know. Thinking about it doesn't result in a conclusion. I just hope it's good news in the end, rather than a cold dead thing.

To me, those experiences are not the entirety of my spirituality, nor am I miserable until I get back to it. As I've said before, those experiences are really secondary to your everyday attitude and choices. I don't think lasting enlightenment is founded upon spiritual highs, but on a strong base. My life got 100 times better not after those experiences, but when I learned to control my negative thinking, and learned how to actively surrender to the infinite, to acknowledge and claim my nature even if I didn't feel it at the time, because it is about relearning your habitual responses and thoughts. Perhaps I don't always feel it in the same way I did in those experiences, but that doesn't mean that my everyday state is any less valid. Why the judgment that one experience is superior? The Oneness experience is coming from a place where the infinite perspective supersedes and sometimes blocks the personal, while my everyday inexperience is the opposite, but the infinite is still there. All the worry, fear, anxiety, etc. has been reduced to almost nothing (though still working on extinguishing it), and happiness, joy, and the connection to the Oneness is the natural and normal state, unlike they were previously. I will take this over having the bliss experience once a month and being how I used to be (fearful, anxious, confused, always searching and grasping) the rest of the time. I'm sorry that you haven't found what your looking for or that our conversation has been of little value to you, I hope you find your answer, good luck in your search. :)

cleft_asunder

01-01-2009, 07:07 PM

To me, those experiences are not the entirety of my spirituality, nor am I miserable until I get back to it. As I've said before, those experiences are really secondary to your everyday attitude and choices. I don't think lasting enlightenment is founded upon spiritual highs, but on a strong base. My life got 100 times better not after those experiences, but when I learned to control my negative thinking, and learned how to actively surrender to the infinite, to acknowledge and claim my nature even if I didn't feel it at the time, because it is about relearning your habitual responses and thoughts. Perhaps I don't always feel it in the same way I did in those experiences, but that doesn't mean that my everyday state is any less valid. Why the judgment that one experience is superior? The Oneness experience is coming from a place where the infinite perspective supersedes and sometimes blocks the personal, while my everyday inexperience is the opposite, but the infinite is still there. All the worry, fear, anxiety, etc. has been reduced to almost nothing (though still working on extinguishing it), and happiness, joy, and the connection to the Oneness is the natural and normal state, unlike they were previously. I will take this over having the bliss experience once a month and being how I used to be (fearful, anxious, confused, always searching and grasping) the rest of the time. I'm sorry that you haven't found what your looking for or that our conversation has been of little value to you, I hope you find your answer, good luck in your search. :)

It's not that the conversation has been little value to me, it's that all I have done is converse about it, and that is what the mind likes to do. It's another trick of the mind/ego to keep a person from walking the path. Technicalities and more technicalities, and the person is no more spiritual nor happier than before.Spirituality can easily become words.

I agree with you btw. Tolle, papaji, gangaji, adyashanti fit that description.