Metallica's 1989 Grammy loss....

[actaeons_revenge]

After reading vigilant citizen's description of the 2009 VMAs, where he says Kanye West interrupting Taylor Swift was a staged humiliation that was part of an initiation ritual, I eventually wondered if the same could be said of Metallica's infamous Grammy loss to Jethro Tull back in 1989? Anyone familiar with heavy metal knows Jethro Tull doesn't belong in this category, and the band's manager even advised them to stay home since he believed that Metallica would clearly win. After performing a shortened version of the song "One", Metallica waited on the side of the stage expecting to be called on to accept the award. However, we all know whose name was announced instead on that night, which was very insulting. Metallica would not win their first Grammy until three years later, following the release of the ever popular "black album". They even joked about the situation while accepting the award, thanking Jethro Tull for not releasing an album that year. Could this be something similar to the VMAs, where Metallica was not welcomed into the fold and officially recognized until they changed their true sound ("matured") to something more mainstream and dumbed-down that could easily be sold to a wider audience? The obvious difference here is that the embarrassment was not resolved that night and lingered for a long time before the initiation was completed. Though that could be a reason to dismiss what I'm suggesting, may I remind you that the higher-ups weren't so blatant with this kind of happening twenty years ago. Or maybe I'm thinking too critically.

Any thoughts???

[daou]

The Grammys are run by old fucks that don't know shit about music...that simple, I mean - it is to this day one of the dumbest things I've seen/heard regarding music awards.

I just think someone, somewhere was paid off - actually I hope someone was, THAT would make actually sense!

[subl1minal]

If anything the Black Album is one of their heaviest albums, I don't understand why people think they went all poppy. Load and ReLoad are the more mainstream sounding albums.

But anyway, I don't think that situation was like the VMA's because the VMA's was all ritualistic and included Freemason Kanye West. Where as Metallica is against all of that, even with their huge success ...And Justice For All speaks volumes to this day.

[triad]

...and justice for all. People, the lyrics on that are awesome and harwester of sorrow is nothing else than the Neo-Con US (NATO) Military that destroys everything - even their own soldiers.

[dusthead]

After reading vigilant citizen's description of the 2009 VMAs, where he says Kanye West interrupting Taylor Swift was a staged humiliation that was part of an initiation ritual, I eventually wondered if the same could be said of Metallica's infamous Grammy loss to Jethro Tull back in 1989? Anyone familiar with heavy metal knows Jethro Tull doesn't belong in this category, and the band's manager even advised them to stay home since he believed that Metallica would clearly win. After performing a shortened version of the song "One", Metallica waited on the side of the stage expecting to be called on to accept the award. However, we all know whose name was announced instead on that night, which was very insulting. Metallica would not win their first Grammy until three years later, following the release of the ever popular "black album". They even joked about the situation while accepting the award, thanking Jethro Tull for not releasing an album that year. Could this be something similar to the VMAs, where Metallica was not welcomed into the fold and officially recognized until they changed their true sound ("matured") to something more mainstream and dumbed-down that could easily be sold to a wider audience? The obvious difference here is that the embarrassment was not resolved that night and lingered for a long time before the initiation was completed. Though that could be a reason to dismiss what I'm suggesting, may I remind you that the higher-ups weren't so blatant with this kind of happening twenty years ago. Or maybe I'm thinking too critically.

Any thoughts???

I was a metal nut back in 1989.

The mainstream simply didn't understand metal back then. Jethro Tull's 'success' was just a result of boundless human stupidity. Even Jethro Tull were surprised. I sometimes wonder if one of the band still has that trophy on their mantlepiece and says That was a weird night! every time someone asks them about it.

Metal is accepted now, so it's understandable people would suspect a conspiracy, but there really isn't one.

[krakhead]

After reading vigilant citizen's description of the 2009 VMAs, where he says Kanye West interrupting Taylor Swift was a staged humiliation that was part of an initiation ritual, I eventually wondered if the same could be said of Metallica's infamous Grammy loss to Jethro Tull back in 1989? Anyone familiar with heavy metal knows Jethro Tull doesn't belong in this category, and the band's manager even advised them to stay home since he believed that Metallica would clearly win. After performing a shortened version of the song "One", Metallica waited on the side of the stage expecting to be called on to accept the award. However, we all know whose name was announced instead on that night, which was very insulting. Metallica would not win their first Grammy until three years later, following the release of the ever popular "black album". They even joked about the situation while accepting the award, thanking Jethro Tull for not releasing an album that year. Could this be something similar to the VMAs, where Metallica was not welcomed into the fold and officially recognized until they changed their true sound ("matured") to something more mainstream and dumbed-down that could easily be sold to a wider audience? The obvious difference here is that the embarrassment was not resolved that night and lingered for a long time before the initiation was completed. Though that could be a reason to dismiss what I'm suggesting, may I remind you that the higher-ups weren't so blatant with this kind of happening twenty years ago. Or maybe I'm thinking too critically.

Any thoughts???

Despite myself, I actually like your thinking.... :eek:
:D

[onourway]

Well the fact that Metallica gave 2 shits about the Grammys shows they were well sold out even back then. BTW...... first 2......maybe three were the best. And if Jethro were deserving of some kind of award it should have been about 15 yrs earlier.

[size_of_light]

Well the fact that Metallica gave 2 shits about the Grammys shows they were well sold out even back then.

Sad But True.

[subl1minal]

Well the fact that Metallica gave 2 shits about the Grammys shows they were well sold out even back then. BTW...... first 2......maybe three were the best. And if Jethro were deserving of some kind of award it should have been about 15 yrs earlier.

Metallica have sold out my ass.

[kappy0405]

"dumbed down"

The Black Album was probably their best album!

But yeah, after that, it was mostly downhill. :(

[kornstar]

Metallica have sold out my ass.

Until it Sleeps.........that is not a lead single to an album for a thrash metal band!!!!

Back then i loved them and thought the Black album was awesome, then i heard Until it Sleeps as the opening single to Load and i turned right off them after hearing the album! Imo they sold out and dumbed down their music.

I still love everything up until Black, after that there are very few songs that i like.

Some kind of Monster was a great doco though and it gave a real insight into them, i don't think they have the fire they used to though (just about staying rich now i would say), songs are way too basic these days, their earlier stuff was just insane, musically.....

[damp]

personally i began losing alot of respect for this band when they started bitchin' about napster. i do understand it .. it just somehow seemed a little greedy at that point in their career imho

[edelweiss pirate]

After reading vigilant citizen's description of the 2009 VMAs, where he says Kanye West interrupting Taylor Swift was a staged humiliation that was part of an initiation ritual, I eventually wondered if the same could be said of Metallica's infamous Grammy loss to Jethro Tull back in 1989? Anyone familiar with heavy metal knows Jethro Tull doesn't belong in this category, and the band's manager even advised them to stay home since he believed that Metallica would clearly win. After performing a shortened version of the song "One", Metallica waited on the side of the stage expecting to be called on to accept the award. However, we all know whose name was announced instead on that night, which was very insulting. Metallica would not win their first Grammy until three years later, following the release of the ever popular "black album". They even joked about the situation while accepting the award, thanking Jethro Tull for not releasing an album that year. Could this be something similar to the VMAs, where Metallica was not welcomed into the fold and officially recognized until they changed their true sound ("matured") to something more mainstream and dumbed-down that could easily be sold to a wider audience? The obvious difference here is that the embarrassment was not resolved that night and lingered for a long time before the initiation was completed. Though that could be a reason to dismiss what I'm suggesting, may I remind you that the higher-ups weren't so blatant with this kind of happening twenty years ago. Or maybe I'm thinking too critically.

Any thoughts???



I think you might be right.....

[groupofone]

I do really think the whole Kanye West situation was staged or happened for a subliminal reason. I instantly knew that it would make Taylor Swifts career uniquely skyrocket with all the interesting attention from the media and everyone logging to see the event.

[subl1minal]

Until it Sleeps.........that is not a lead single to an album for a thrash metal band!!!!

Back then i loved them and thought the Black album was awesome, then i heard Until it Sleeps as the opening single to Load and i turned right off them after hearing the album! Imo they sold out and dumbed down their music.

I still love everything up until Black, after that there are very few songs that i like.

Some kind of Monster was a great doco though and it gave a real insight into them, i don't think they have the fire they used to though (just about staying rich now i would say), songs are way too basic these days, their earlier stuff was just insane, musically.....


I think it's all about playing live and playing all those classics they've created. Not about staying rich. They're rich enough, they all have kids, families. It would make more sense if they just stopped and settled down, but clearly they still have a passion for putting on a show and that's why since Load they've had poor albums, they were just churning them out so they could continue touring and playing shows worldwide. Although Death Magnetic is awesome.


But anyway, Until It Sleeps is one of their best songs, are you telling me you'd still dig Metallica if they were writing Master of Puppets/Black albums over and over again? Like Slayer? it gets frigging boring.

When you're a musician (I'm assuming you're not) or in a band, you write stuff to please yourself and everyone in the band, not people outside of it. That's what Metallica and almost every band under the Sun has done. Soon as they switch it up, people claim they're selling out or whatever.

The day Metallica sell out, is the day they play a concert for the Troops and meet the President.

[loveoverhate]

Metallica have sold out my ass.

Uh...they sold out long long long long ago. And they haven't looked back since. And I'm not just talking about musically and image-wise either. Though, it is very true that the "black album" was their last great record. Everything after is a joke.

This is an excellent thread by the way...I'm glad someone was astute enough to even think to bring it up!


Long live and God Bless the ultimate bass player of all time...the only member of Metallica who never sold his soul...the late Cliff Burton!

My all time favorite Metallica song will always be THE FOUR HORSEMEN!!! I think I may have to go listen to it now. :-D

[loveoverhate]

The day Metallica sell out, is the day they play a concert for the Troops and meet the President.


Give it time. Remember...Aerosmith actually performed with a boy"band" and Britney Spears if I remember right.

[kornstar]

I think it's all about playing live and playing all those classics they've created. Not about staying rich. They're rich enough, they all have kids, families. It would make more sense if they just stopped and settled down, but clearly they still have a passion for putting on a show and that's why since Load they've had poor albums, they were just churning them out so they could continue touring and playing shows worldwide. Although Death Magnetic is awesome.


But anyway, Until It Sleeps is one of their best songs, are you telling me you'd still dig Metallica if they were writing Master of Puppets/Black albums over and over again? Like Slayer? it gets frigging boring.

When you're a musician (I'm assuming you're not) or in a band, you write stuff to please yourself and everyone in the band, not people outside of it. That's what Metallica and almost every band under the Sun has done. Soon as they switch it up, people claim they're selling out or whatever.

The day Metallica sell out, is the day they play a concert for the Troops and meet the President.

When i watch Some Kind Of Monster (i have seen it more then once too) i didn't get the feeling that they loved doing what they are doing. It is all they know, so they keep doing it but i didn't really see the desire or creative genius that was once there. It was kind of hard to believe that those people were the same guys that wrote Master or Blackened etc.

Absolutely not do i want to hear them do the same album over and over but did i expect after such a great progression from Justice to Black that the next progression would be that they cut their hair and release garbage, half hearted music?????

Yes, i am a musician and i totally agree that i write music to please myself, but i also like to challenge myself to push the boundaries of my limitations. If you think that Metallica started pushing any boundaries after Black then we must be listening to different bands with the same name!

They may not have sold out when they made Load and the subsequent garbage but when Lars persisted with Napster, they 100% sold out! They forgot what being a musician was about, what they were about in the beginning imo, i could see where he was coming from but to go to the lengths he did was where he lost me.......

If i never made a cent of my music but millions of people listened and appreciated it i would be completely happy! I may love money like most people but the thought of people listening and being affected by what i have written is something that transcends money for me......

I don't think playing for troops is a sellout at all, it would be an honor to play in front of the men who are "fighting" for your country!

I still think Megadeth are better then Metallica though, Dave Mustaine is a genius. Rust In Peace is possibly the greatest album ever written......i am sure you will disagree though :D

[loveoverhate]

Megadeth is one of my favorite metal bands ever. Dave Mustaine has my complete respect. But musically, I have to say that Metallica's first 5 albums are *probably* the greatest metal albums ever as far as originality. Even Garage Days was fun for awhile.

[actaeons_revenge]

So, this thread has devolved into a debate about whether Metallica sold out or not. It should be painfully obvious to anyone into metal that Metallica sold out with the Black Album. It should be a clear no-brainer to musicians, as some of you have proudly admitted yourselves to be. While the Black Album is metal, it remains only mainstream metal. It is entirely formulaic and unchallenging to the ear. I mean, I played bass for a few months eight years ago and I remember how much easier the Black Album material was to play compared to Metallica's previous efforts. Even professional wrestler Chris Jericho said that the Black Album was not a Metallica album. He's into metal and is in a band, he would know. You musicians should know this, but yet you stick up for Metallica as if they give a shit about anything other than your money. It seems I've once again encountered the delusional mindset; fans desperate to justify their hero worship. The band cast aside their creative integrity in favor of expanding their bank accounts, yet people still support them. It is obvious you are being nothing more than a good little consumer and buying a brand. I've even heard the shitty justification for this: "If you were a true fan of the band, you would buy everything they release". What? You would buy anything with the Metallica brand name on it, regardless of whether you like it or not? Save your money for someone who deserves it! Or how about this one: "You only like a certain sound". Uh, yeah. That's the point of music. I'm going to listen to the genres of music that I like and if the band stops playing that type of music, I stop listening to that band because there are always other bands that deserve that attention. In case you didn't catch on at that point, Metallica even shed their ties to mainstream metal with Load.

The release marked a change in musical direction for the band and a new look with band members receiving haircuts. Metallica headlined the alternative rock festival Lollapalooza in the summer of 1996.

The new Metallica brand, now a short-haired hard rock outfit, earned them the nickname "Alternica". (Wikipedia lies. The Black Album was their first change in musical direction.)

And it's not like this is a phenomenon of the mainstream, either. There are plenty of underground bands in the metal scene that simplify their sound to make extra money, though it wouldn't be as big of a pay increase.

Slayer, though not quite underground, rode the nu-metal wave when they released Diabolous In Musica. From wikipedia:

The album received a mixed critical reception and was criticized for adopting characteristics of nu metal music such as tuned down guitars, murky chord structures, and churning beats.

Do you remember when Machine Head released The Burning Red?

In this album the band added new elements to the its music, including rapping vocals, a move which some believe to have been influenced by Ahrue Luster himself. This change in musical direction was highly criticized, with critics and fans alike accusing the band of "selling out".

Don't blame the new guy, it was all Robb Flynn. I was posting on Machine Head's official forum around this time and I remember him saying that for every fan they lose, they'll pick up twenty more. After the album's release, the board was overrun by 12-year-old wigger noobs, driving out the thrash fans and leaving only the truly deluded to mingle with them.

How about In Flames?

Reroute to Remain represented a major stylistic shift for In Flames music, in the addition of clean vocals and catchier choruses.

Again, this is incorrect. Colony was where they started tweaking their sound, but it was on Clayman where they totally abandoned their pioneering melodic death metal trademarks. I never bought another one of their records after hearing that piece of shit. Word is that they didn't even make that much money from selling out and playing sk8r rock. Apparently founding member Jesper Stromblad has left the band to deal with his alcoholism. What's the matter? Can't stand how empty and unfulfilled you've become?

Soilwork

This one's easy. Natural Born Chaos' "experimentation" forewarned you of where they would go on Figure Number Five(notice the attention paid to the Law of Fives with that title).

Sepultura

Jeez, another thrash act gone belly-up. On Chaos A.D., they felt more like a cross between Helmet and Pantera. Roots, however, was pure Korn worship. When the band split with Max, he continued to make Korn-style records in Soulfly while his former mates went more hardcore.

Ion Dissonance

Another band that went hardcore. Their first album, Breathing Is Irrelevant, was brilliant death metal that marked them as the next Cryptopsy. Once they toured the States, they found out what sells down here: hardcore. They wrote and recorded Solace, their follow-up album, in only three months. Another one bites the dust.

Cryptopsy

Oh how the might have fallen. Once an anchor for the technical death metal scene, the departure of their main songwriter saw an opportunistic drummer take the band into deathcore territory. R.I.P.

Lacuna Coil

I thought Comalies was shit, but the stuff they do now is total pop. Oh, and a beautiful woman fronting the band doesn't hurt record sales, either.

Arch Enemy

They hired an attractive female vocalist to sell records to horny fanboys. On top of that, their songs became 100% dumb whereas before Wages of Sin, the only dumb parts were the rhythms they played underneath the solos. Don't try to listen to Johan Liiva-era songs because Angela butchers them. The most heinous offense is for the song Dead Inside.

Let's not forget Megadeth!

Everyone knows that everything Dave Mustaine did with this band was for the sole purpose of getting revenge at Metallica for kicking him out. So, when Metallica sold out with the Black Album, MegaDave followed suit with Countdown to Extinction!

In January 1992, Megadeth entered Enterprise Studios in Burbank, California with co-producer Max Norman. Norman, who had mixed Rust in Peace, would be integral in Megadeth's resulting musical makeover, pushing for shorter, less complicated, and more radio-friendly songs. Youthanasia followed the stylistic shift that began with Countdown to Extinction. While still retaining core metal elements, the album focused on stronger vocal melodies and more accessible, radio friendly arrangements. The band even enlisted noted fashion photographer Richard Avedon to further their new image, dropping their jeans and t-shirts for a more style conscious look.





Amazingly, some bands have returned to form. Machine Head did it on The Blackening, if that style still tickles you. I find it boring. Megadeth's latest albums aren't bad, but I don't care. Slayer is playing thrash again with World Painted Blood, but the riffs are shit. Has beens. Finally, Metallica tried to lure back their old fans with Death Magnetic, even going so far as to call it similar to ...And Justice For All to gain your interest. If that's what they were aiming for, they failed. If this was the best they could do, then it is clear their creativity has been tapped dry like a well. Has beens. Anyway, there really is no point in waiting for a band to return to form, especially when you've moved on to bigger and better things.

http://i311.photobucket.com/albums/kk462/Bradenboardman/metallica_ArmaniOfDarkness.jpg

Can you see evrything that's wrong with this picture?

http://i663.photobucket.com/albums/uu351/Drod99/fm.jpg

Enough is enough, rock stars!

[subl1minal]

Once again, a thread de-railed.

[phemohilia]

So, this thread has devolved into a debate about whether Metallica sold out or not. It should be painfully obvious to anyone into metal that Metallica sold out with the Black Album. It should be a clear no-brainer to musicians, as some of you have proudly admitted yourselves to be. While the Black Album is metal, it remains only mainstream metal.



Well, I've been hearing this since August 13, 1991 (the day AFTER the "Metallica" [Black album] was released) and I'm still not clear on how this album constitutes their "selling out" and how it's "mainstream metal".... I mean, did they conduct a poll, or series of polls, surveys, questionnaires to get public opinion for what their next album should be/sound like BEFORE going into the studio and putting 9 - 10 months into what has become known as their "biggest" album??? Maybe it has something to do with this. A lot of times people come upon a band and form some sort of connection. It may also happen during a certain part of that person's life when an outlet such as music becomes a source of grounding support, or their "anchor". They form a strong connection to this source of kinship and make it their own. And when ANYTHING happens to this source of support that changes it in ANY way, it may cause a kind of panic, making that person feel as though their grounding support, their safety and familiarity (comfort zone) will change (feel taken away) and thus brings on the animosity towards a band that is only doing what comes naturally and not trying to rip the band-aid off, so to speak. People grow, evolve and change. All things are in flux. That is just the nature of Life.

Long Live Metallica!!!

Oh, and FUCK Jethro Tull. Grammy winners my ass!!!

[subl1minal]

Well, I've been hearing this since August 13, 1991 (the day AFTER the "Metallica" [Black album] was released) and I'm still not clear on how this album constitutes their "selling out" and how it's "mainstream metal".... I mean, did they conduct a poll, or series of polls, surveys, questionnaires to get public opinion for what their next album should be/sound like BEFORE going into the studio and putting 9 - 10 months into what has become known as their "biggest" album??? Maybe it has something to do with this. A lot of times people come upon a band and form some sort of connection. It may also happen during a certain part of that person's life when an outlet such as music becomes a source of grounding support, or their "anchor". They form a strong connection to this source of kinship and make it their own. And when ANYTHING happens to this source of support that changes it in ANY way, it may cause a kind of panic, making that person feel as though their grounding support, their safety and familiarity (comfort zone) will change (feel taken away) and thus brings on the animosity towards a band that is only doing what comes naturally and not trying to rip the band-aid off, so to speak. People grow, evolve and change. All things are in flux. That is just the nature of Life.

Long Live Metallica!!!

Oh, and FUCK Jethro Tull. Grammy winners my ass!!!

1+

Metallica like to bring people together and are possibly the most positive band out there, Love 'Em All!

[loveoverhate]

Everybody is entitled to their opinions of course, but the vast majority of former Metallica fans abandoned them because THEY abandoned them first.

And if you want to really talk about them "selling out"...let's discuss the Napster issue. Lars Ulrick is a douchbag plain and simple. The rest of them just don't give an F. I don't really know how to classify the Black album, but I can say that it's their last truly great accomplishment.

[size_of_light]

It would be pretty sad if any of us here were still expressing ourselves the way we did back in the 1980s, so there's a good case to be made that anyone still bitching about Metallica selling out with the Black Album and beyond is a bogan stuck in a time warp.

The Black Album, Load and Reload are full of awesome (but different from earlier) material. IMO, to a lesser extent, so are St Anger and Death Magnetic

To conclude, why the fuck is this even important enough to be writing about? :D :p

[themadness]

the black album was, good, not great. just good. it was labeled as a sell out record b/c of the band working with bob rock. their last decent work, and best IMO, was and justice for all. i think they lost a lot of confidence when newstead bolted and they over compensated by going pop.

ulrich is a douche on the highest level. the napster thing bothered me b/c big name artists forget that bootlegging their early work is how they got their name out. napster was digital bootlegging. now if a new album got put out b4 its official release date then that would be a problem.

load and everything after including st. anger was a lame attempt at recovery. death magnetic was ok, but they have a long way to go b4 they can reclaim their status.

[sofa king]

Well, I've been hearing this since August 13, 1991 (the day AFTER the "Metallica" [Black album] was released) and I'm still not clear on how this album constitutes their "selling out" and how it's "mainstream metal"....


its mainstream in their owns words at the time. Simpler chords. Simpler drum parts, shorter songs, and of course BOB ROCK producing.

It was what they wanted it to be. A radio friendly album that would e easier to perform in concert.

Metallica's words when they were releasing the album.

[loveoverhate]

To conclude, why the fuck is this even important enough to be writing about? :D :p

Cuz we're fans of music? And I'm a musician myself.