The Mystery that is Lucifer

[uchiha]

This is an open discussion to those who wish to delve into the topic
of Lucifer the light bearer

Throughout history and dominant religions this ..... name
has been trampled / altered / misinformed to millions of people

I come here to ask the people of this forum their personal opinions on the subject
preferably with references or factual sources

At the end of the thread i will give my Account/Insight
(granted it takes off)

[soglad]

The reason Lucifer is the light bringer, is being people need to experience the dark side to know what the bright side is. People see the light better in darkness, he shows the true path.

People need to stop rejecting the negative aspecs of themselves and embrace all of their being to know true peace!

Thread over! haha

[lydia78]

This is an open discussion to those who wish to delve into the topic
of Lucifer the light bearer

Throughout history and dominant religions this ..... name
has been trampled / altered / misinformed to millions of people

I come here to ask the people of this forum their personal opinions on the subject
preferably with references or factual sources

At the end of the thread i will give my Account/Insight
(granted it takes off)

This is a very interesting topic and one that deserves some research!!
There are many misconceptions about lucifer according to the books I've read on it lately...number one being that lucifer has been depicted as a male,
according to Lynn Picknett in her book 'the secret History of Lucifer' is a female.
Also Lucifer is supposed to be an aspect or tri-parte of Satan-Lucifer-the Devil...yet this isn't exactly true either,
Lucifer, the light bringer or morning star is none other than the planet Venus!!
Now according to what mythology you follow this interprets into the Goddesses, Venus/Aphrodite/Astarte/Ishtar and hathor/isis
but in egypt Venus is osirus and in the bible Lucifer is Jesus!

Revelation 22:16: "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."

so it has the right to be slightly confusing as to the role and identity of lucifer!Here's a past thread where we attempted to look at the roles of the goddesses
http://www.davidicke.com/forum/showthread.php?t=10027&page=7
:)

http://www.lds-mormon.com/lucifer.shtml

[bigus_dickus]

in biblical terms, Lucifer was the bright angel of light before his "fall". astronomically they associated it with the planet Venus, which was the brightest planet in the sky besides the Sun.

later, they associated this entity with the equivalent of evil, namely 'Satan'. Satan is supposed to be an angel who was the best and most beautiful creation of God, who was the light and for that reason he/she was called Lucifer.

[bigus_dickus]

and in the bible Lucifer is Jesus!

nowhere in the bible it is mentioned that Jesus is also named Lucifer. the only clue you have is this:

Revelation 22:16: "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star."

which is a metaphor and doesn't say the same thing that you said. also we don't know if Jesus really said those words, as this phrase was written 3 centuries after his death and resurrection.

[lydia78]

nowhere in the bible it is mentioned that Jesus is also named Lucifer. the only clue you have is this:

which is a metaphor and doesn't say the same thing that you said. also we don't know if Jesus really said those words, as this phrase was written 3 centuries after his death and resurrection.

I believe you and I have been over this before BD,
so I looked about for more references and found this 'debunker' site
at least that's how it comes across, in so far as interpretation goes;
here's what they said:

Revelations 22 : 6-18

6 "And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true:
and the Lord God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the things which must shortly be done. 7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book.
8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things. 9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God. 10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. 11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. 12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be. 13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie. 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. 17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. 18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book."

"Christians once again will say that is Jesus. In fact it is clear that that is not Jesus. Read the text very carefully, you will notice that it is suddenly THE God speaking when he says I am alpha and omega. Let us Quote to make it simple so every one can see who is talking rather than making everyone confused:


This is John

6 And he said unto me, These sayings are faithful and true: and the Lord
God of the holy prophets sent his angel to shew unto his servants the
things which must shortly be done. 7 Behold, I come quickly: blessed is he that keepeth the sayings of the prophecy of this book. 8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down
to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things

This is angel

9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant,
and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of
this book: worship God. 10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of
the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand. 11 He that is unjust,
let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still. 12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me,
to give every man according as his work shall be

Now this is THE God

13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last. 14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city. 15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie

Now it is Jesus 16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star. 17 And the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely. 18 For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book: 19 And if any man shall take away from the words of
the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.

So it is not good English, no one knows who is talking unless you really try
to find out. When you do, you see that Jesus is not claiming to be alpha and omega first and last.

And here's a link you'd agree with more:
http://www.chick.com/ask/articles/lucifer.asp


Question: Should the Bible say “Lucifer” or “morning star” in Isaiah 14:12? And does it refer to Satan?
Answer: The King James Bible is correct. Although “Lucifer”
is the Latin version of the name, the passage is talking about Satan,
not a mere Babylonian king.

Light-Bearer or Morning Star?

Throughout the world, if you ask people who “Heyleel” (hey-LEYL) is, most will not know what to answer. But if you ask them, “Who is Lucifer?” you will very likely get the correct answer. People know who Lucifer is.
Ask the Luciferians, who worship Lucifer as a being of light. Ask the Satanists, who call their master Lucifer. No one is in doubt as to who Lucifer is. ( This i disagree with)

What if you ask them, “Who is the morning star?” or “Who is the day star?” Most will know it’s Jesus. Look at these scriptures:
Peter 1:19: “We have also a more sure word of prophecy; whereunto ye do well that ye take heed, as unto a light that shineth in a dark place, until the day dawn, and the day star arise in your hearts:”
Revelation 22:16: “I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.”

Any translation that says “day star” or “morning star” or “star of the morning” in Isaiah 14:12, like most modern perversions, is bringing confusion. And God is not the author of confusion (1 Corinthians 14:33). Many people reading the modern perversions end up asking, “If Lucifer is the morning star and Jesus is the morning star, then is Lucifer Jesus?” The modern translations are simply not clear!

That is not all. The term translated "Lucifer" does NOT at all mean "morning star" or "star of the morning." That would be two totally different Hebrew words. The word means "light-bearer." In Greek it's "heosphoros," “light-bearer.” In Latin it's translated "Lucifer," light-bearer. Whether you say "heylel," "heosphoros" or "lucifer," the meaning is the same: "light-bearer." But only Lucifer communicates who we are talking about in English.

And not only English uses the term. Look at these ancient translations of the word. They also use some form of “Lucifer.”

Spanish Reina-Valera (1557 through 1909) Lucero
Czech Kralika (1613) lucifere
Romanian Cornilescu (to present) Luceafar


So interesting stuff but still not clarified as there are contradictory texts arguing the lucifer/Morningstar/Jesus connection....indeed translations have been lost to semantics.



http://animal-cruelty.com/sami_zaatri/rebuttaltosamshamoun24.htm

[bigus_dickus]

16 I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.

here is the verse in the Greek text from which it is translated:

Ἐγὼ Ἰησοῦς ἔπεμψα τὸν ἄγγελόν μου μαρτυρῆσαι ὑμῖν ταῦτα ἐπὶ ταῖς ἐκκλησίαις. ἐγώ εἰμι ἡ ῥίζα καὶ τὸ γένος Δαυΐδ, ὁ ἀστὴρ ὁ λαμπρὸς ὁ πρωϊνός.

"ὁ ἀστὴρ" = the star
"ὁ λαμπρὸς" = the bright
"ὁ πρωϊνός" = of the morning

this verse suddenly appears to pop up while the angel is talking and says "Ego Jesus" = me, Jesus. it can be interpreted in many ways.. one of them is "me as Jesus", another is "me, who i am Jesus".

he also says that he is the root and the generation of David.

most of the verses are quite fluid and open to interpretation. it seems that written text is always like that and all interpretation is due to understanding so that it can make sense to anyone who reads.

this verse could also be interpreted like this (without saying that this is the correct way):

"i sent Jesus (as) my angel to witness (tell) those things to the congregations...etc"

That is not all. The term translated "Lucifer" does NOT at all mean "morning star" or "star of the morning." That would be two totally different Hebrew words. The word means "light-bearer." In Greek it's "heosphoros," “light-bearer.” In Latin it's translated "Lucifer," light-bearer. Whether you say "heylel," "heosphoros" or "lucifer," the meaning is the same: "light-bearer." But only Lucifer communicates who we are talking about in English.

the word for Lucifer is "εωσφόρος"

let's look at the word εωσφόρος. it is consisted of 2 words, εως and φόρος.

"έως" = dawn
"φόρος" = carrier (in modern times, it also means tax, payment :rolleyes:)

so a free translation is "carrier of the dawn".

not bringer of the light. not producer of the light or being the light, but carrier (bringer?) of the dawn.

literally the planet Venus, metaphorically someone who makes a difference maybe.


thanks for the links, will check them out later.

[lydia78]

No worries there BD will have a look about for more links on this topic
as it is facinating...I guess the confusion will clarify itself in the end..LOL;)

[2013]

venus rotates in the opposite direction to all the other planets , so in that way it could be said to be rebellious ,the mayans based the start of their calendar on the birth of venus ,The first day being , 11 of August of 3113 A.C. the ancient egyptians and greeks refering to the planet as two bodies could of given rise to the dual nature of the jesus and lucifer aspects of alpha omega morning and evening star yin and yang. light and dark .We are both in one venus ir ruler of taurus and libra so earthly aspect and air element as well and the scales to maintain a balance.
Luke 10.17.-19 I saw satan fall like lightening from heaven .Here he is satan compared with light.
revealation 12:7 ¶ And there was war in heaven: Michael Dan. 10.13, 21 ; 12.1 · Jude 9.1--0.1 and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, Gen. 3.1 called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, Lk. 10.18 and his angels were cast out with him.
So maybe that could refer to actual beings here now on earth or in times past or cast out from heaven could refer to the planet venus coming into this universe from elsewhere or being struck by an object changing its rotationand that ofthe earth from our 360 day year to 365 throwing us out of balance libra scales again .There are too many threads connecting these events for one alone to be correct .
Venus - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
Venus in human culture
Historic connections

The Ancient Egyptians believed Venus to be two separate bodies and knew the morning star as Tioumoutiri and the evening star as Ouaiti. Likewise believing Venus to be two bodies, the Ancient Greeks called the morning star Φωσφόρος, Phosphoros (Latinized Phosphorus), the "Bringer of Light" or Εωσφόρος, Eosphoros (Latinized Eosphorus), the "Bringer of Dawn". The evening star they called Hesperos (Latinized Hesperus) (Ἓσπερος, the star of the evening), but by Hellenistic times, they realized the two were the same planet. Hesperos would be translated into Latin as Vesper and Phosphoros as Lucifer ("Light Bearer"), a poetic term later used to refer to the fallen angel cast out of heaven.[55] The Romans would later name the planet in honor of their goddess of love, Venus, whereas the Greeks used the name of her Greek counterpart, Aphrodite (Phoenician Astarte).
:D

[lydia78]

venus rotates in the opposite direction to all the other planets , so in that way it could be said to be rebellious ,the mayans based the start of their calendar on the birth of venus ,The first day being , 11 of August of 3113 A.C. the ancient egyptians and greeks refering to the planet as two bodies could of given rise to the dual nature of the jesus and lucifer aspects of alpha omega morning and evening star yin and yang. light and dark .We are both in one venus ir ruler of taurus and libra so earthly aspect and air element as well and the scales to maintain a balance.
Luke 10.17.-19 I saw satan fall like lightening from heaven .Here he is satan compared with light.
revealation 12:7 ¶ And there was war in heaven: Michael Dan. 10.13, 21 ; 12.1 · Jude 9.1--0.1 and his angels fought against the dragon; and the dragon fought and his angels,

and prevailed not; neither was their place found any more in heaven.

And the great dragon was cast out, that old serpent, Gen. 3.1 called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: he was cast out into the earth, Lk. 10.18 and his angels were cast out with him.
So maybe that could refer to actual beings here now on earth or in times past or cast out from heaven could refer to the planet venus coming into this universe from elsewhere or being struck by an object changing its rotationand that ofthe earth from our 360 day year to 365 throwing us out of balance libra scales again .There are too many threads connecting these events for one alone to be correct .
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Venus
Venus in human culture
Historic connections

The Ancient Egyptians believed Venus to be two separate bodies and knew the morning star as Tioumoutiri and the evening star as Ouaiti. Likewise believing Venus to be two bodies, the Ancient Greeks called the morning star Φωσφόρος, Phosphoros (Latinized Phosphorus), the "Bringer of Light" or Εωσφόρος, Eosphoros (Latinized Eosphorus), the "Bringer of Dawn". The evening star they called Hesperos (Latinized Hesperus) (Ἓσπερος, the star of the evening), but by Hellenistic times, they realized the two were the same planet. Hesperos would be translated into Latin as Vesper and Phosphoros as Lucifer ("Light Bearer"), a poetic term later used to refer to the fallen angel cast out of heaven.[55] The Romans would later name the planet in honor of their goddess of love, Venus, whereas the Greeks used the name of her Greek counterpart, Aphrodite (Phoenician Astarte).
:D

Nice post there,

Lucifer-the light bearer-bringer and then you have JC " I am the light of the world. He who follows Me shall not walk in darkness, but have the light of life." John 8:12...they're def talking about the same light..;)

[lydia78]

Found this site, has a well rounded definition and history of the name:

So "Lucifer" is nothing more than an ancient Latin name for
the morning star, the bringer of light.
That can be confusing for Christians who identify Christ himself
as the morning star, a term used as a central theme in many
Christian sermons. Jesus refers to himself as the morning star in
Revelation 22:16: "I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto
you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of
David, and the bright and morning star."

And so there are those who do not read beyond the King James
version of the Bible, who say 'Lucifer is Satan: so says the Word
of God'...."

Henry Neufeld (a Christian who comments on Biblical sticky issues)
went on to say,
"this passage is often related to Satan, and a similar thought is
expressed in Luke 10:18 by Jesus, that was not its first meaning.
It's primary meaning is given in Isaiah 14:4 which says that when
Israel is restored they will "take up this taunt against the king of
Babylon . . ." Verse 12 is a part of this taunt song.
This passage refers first to the fall of that earthly king...
How does the confusion in translating this verse arise?
The Hebrew of this passage reads: "heleyl, ben shachar"
which can be literally translated "shining one, son of dawn.
" This phrase means, again literally, the planet Venus when it
appears as a morning star.
In the Septuagint, a 3rd century BC translation of the
Hebrew scriptures into Greek, it is translated as
"heosphoros" which also means Venus as a morning star.

How did the translation "lucifer" arise?
This word comes from Jerome's Latin Vulgate.
Was Jerome in error? Not at all.
In Latin at the time, "lucifer" actually meant Venus as a morning star.
Isaiah is using this metaphor for a bright light,
though not the greatest light to illustrate the apparent
power of the Babylonian king which then faded."

Therefore, Lucifer wasn't equated with Satan until after Jerome. Jerome wasn't in error.
Later Christians (and Mormons) were in equating "Lucifer" with "Satan".
So why is this a problem to Christians?
Christians now generally believe that Satan (or the Devil or Lucifer
who they equate with Satan)
is a being who has always existed (or who was created at or near the "beginning").
Therefore, they also think that the 'prophets' of the Old Testament
believed in this creature. The Isaiah scripture is used as proof
(and has been used as such for hundreds of years now).
As Elaine Pagels explains though, the concept of Satan has evolved
over the years and the early Bible writers didn't believe in or teach
such a doctrine.

The irony for those who believe that "Lucifer" refers to Satan is
that the same title ('morning star' or 'light-bearer')
is used to refer to Jesus, in 2 Peter 1:19,
where the Greek text has exactly the same term:
'phos-phoros' 'light-bearer.' This is also the term used for
Jesus in Revelation 22:16.

So why is Lucifer a far bigger problem to Mormons?
Mormons claim that an ancient record (the Book of Mormon)
was written beginning in about 600 BC, and the author in 600 BC
supposedly copied Isaiah in Isaiah's original words.
When Joseph Smith pretended to translate the supposed
'ancient record', he included the Lucifer verse in the Book of Mormon.
Obviously he wasn't copying what Isaiah actually wrote.
He was copying the King James Version of the Bible.
Another book of LDS scripture, the Doctrine & Covenants,
furthers this problem in 76:26 when it affirms the false Christian doctrine that "Lucifer" means Satan.
This incorrect doctrine also spread into a third set of Mormon scriptures,
the Pearl of Great Price, which describes a war in heaven based,
in part, on Joseph Smith's incorrect interpretation
of the word "Lucifer" which only appears in Isaiah.

more here:
http://www.allaboutgod.com/story-of-lucifer.htm
http://www.lds-mormon.com/lucifer.shtml

[2013]

Lyrics
Pack Up Your Troubles
Pack up your troubles in your old kit bag
And smile, smile, smile
While you've a lucifer to light your fag
Smile boys, that's the style
What's the use of worrying
It doesn't seem worthwhile
So pack up you troubles in your old kit bag
And smile, smile, smile.

http://www.matchbox-labels.co.uk/examples.htm
Types of Matches
Lucifer matches were first sold under that name in 1829 by chemist Samuel Jones. Demand was high and others soon followed his example. During 1832 a new friction match was introduced from the continent called the Congreve, using phosphorous and soon replaced the lucifer match.

Dont let them fool ya,
Or even try to school ya! oh, no!
Weve got a mind of our own,
So go to hell if what youre thinking is not right!
Love would never leave us alone,
A-yin the darkness there must come out to light.

Could you be loved and be loved?
Could you be loved, wo now! - and be loved?

(the road of life is rocky and you may stumble too,
So while you point your fingers someone else is judging you)
Love your brotherman!
(could you be - could you be - could you be loved?
Could you be - could you be loved?
:D

[informationx]

Lucifer
O.E. Lucifer "Satan," also "morning star," from L. Lucifer "morning star," lit. "light-bringing," from lux (gen. lucis) + ferre "carry" (see infer). Belief that it was the proper name of Satan began with its used in Bible to translate Gk. Phosphoros, which translates Heb. Helel ben Shahar in Isaiah xiv.12 -- "How art thou fallen from heaven, O Lucifer, son of the morning!" [KJV] The verse was interpreted by Christians as a reference to "Satan," because of the mention of a fall from Heaven, even though it is literally a reference to the King of Babylon (cf. Isaiah xiv.4). Lucifer match "friction match" is from 1831

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=lucifer&searchmode=none